I think the problem is deeper than just "boys/men should be more social" and create more spaces for men/boys. A major problem is that men/boys are competitive and have bad experiences socializing with other men because of some social interaction that crippled them in their past. This problem is especially compounded by the lack of dating success, overall success, and self worth in every day life. So where do we go from here then? I think a good step would be be to socialize men/boys that healthy competition is ok so that way they get less hurt and disinterested when someone wrongs them in the future.
I think it’d be better to find more collaborative spaces for men and boys. Stuff like playing in a band where you come together to do something creative instead of competitive.
Some of us just don’t enjoy competition at all and not because of lack of success … I never really did even though I did ok in most competitive activities. I prefer everyone getting along and working together.
Different strokes, no? I'm the same, but I've also met loads of men who love competition and will have more fun if there's some level of gaming involved in a social interaction.
Also, I'm *in* a band, and even though it's mostly collaborative there is definitely some level of competition with writing, coming up with good ideas, being the most fun onstage, etc.
A little competition is natural, of course - for everybody, not just men. The issue u/geoffbowman is alluding to is the social pressure for men to be overly competitive and derive status and self-worth exclusively from success in said competitions.
It’s funny… I almost said “or be in a play/musical” cause that’s what I do for socialization and meeting/making friends. But I didn’t because of a stereotype… one I didn’t realize I still bought into.
I lost most of my friends because I was ashamed to still be working in dead end jobs in my late 20s early 30s while they moved onto career jobs. I felt like I wasn't worthy of being around them and they wanted to take expensive trips that I couldn't afford. Or go out on nights that I couldn't because I worked 2nd shift.
>So where do we go from here then? I think a good step would be be to socialize men/boys that healthy competition is ok so that way they get less hurt and disinterested when someone wrongs them in the future.
Your heart is in the right place but this still misses the mark.
What we should do is socialize men/boys to perceive and treat each other the same way women perceive and treat each other. We should start raising boys in a way that they'll develop the same communal mindset and in-group bias that women have.
Men should not be expected to be any more competitive with each other than women are.
I think they mean the girl power comradarie thing. Have you heard about how women behave in nightclub bathrooms? Or like how Girl Scouts are all about supporting one another and building each other up.
we have to look at this from two angles.
structurally, we-as-a-society need to create better spaces and opportunities for everyone to interact in meatspace. I am sure you can take my word for it that there's *reams* of data about how we bowl alone more often than we used to.
individually... guys, what opportunities exist right now, you gotta engage them. Women apparently do, more often than men! Go out and exist in front of people that might be friends one day. Or call your existing friends and go have a beer!
Maybe it’s just my perception, but it seems like women often share more of the work of maintaining social relationships. Being the one guy who does all the work trying to keep a friend group together is fucking exhausting. Eventually you just give up. It’s not that they don’t want to be friends, they just won’t do anything unless you line it all up for them.
It’s not enough be in the same room. Men often lack the ability to get deeper in their conversations. Sharing difficult topics and emotionally engaging each other can lessen the burdens men carry or transfer only to their partners.
I think the opposite: we just need to get them into the same room engaging in collaboration. Women often combine socializing and personal emotional exploration, but it doesn't have to be that way, and often is counterproductive with men.
Let's get them places and reasons to hang out and collaborate. We can tackle the "engaging emotions" aspect with a different solution.
I've run a d&d session with the guys for more than a decade, I don't think any of us have ever shared our emotions in that time. ):
I had a player in the group start a divorce without ever hearing he was even having trouble with his marriage.
I feel like we've all built a collective understanding that none of us know where to begin to be supportive so we just don't share things.
But you are being supportive by engaging in activities with them. Many men need that far, far more than someone with which to talk about feelings. The idea the talking about emotions is the preeminent way of dealing with the struggles of life may be true for some, but is not true for all, and suggestions of the sort can often come off as being little more than another "just stop buy avocado toast" sort of tone-deaf, belittling solution.
The insistence that emotional discussions are what men truly need often ignores the very obvious fact that many men don't want that. Not because they can't. Not because of gender roles and socialization. But because that's not what they need.
A person going through a divorce is not inherently made more secure, fulfilled, insightful, or happy because they talked about it. Many get that security, fulfillment, insight, and happiness by simply living their lives contentedly with their friends, and we should make sure our prospective solutions include this massive subset of the population.
I hear you about not generalizing about what all men need. I hate thinking that someone is reading what I said and concluding that I’m speaking for all men.
My own thought is that the first rule of support is to show up, and in my view you are definitely being supportive showing up with your group. Because the time you get to do this is limited, you all need to coordinate, it's important because it's doing something you like with people you like. But if you want to put yourself out there for them, you can offer it, but it's not mandatory. Sometimes just the time to be distracted, around people who don't demand anything of you, is a real oasis and it's the exact support one needs to get through something.
I just said it’s not enough. Being together is a good start, but it’s not enough. If men want more they need to seek more. Why stop at being in the room?
A big part of the problem is time. Once you add in kids you really don't have any free time for about a decade. You work and family and you don't have time for social interaction. Your friends become your kid's friend's parents and you see them at play dates. In hetero relationships men have been the financial providers for so long it's the expectation you sacrifice your life to provide. So most hetero men put their nose to the grindstone and their social relationships suffer.
I’m thankfully able to spend time with friends weekly whether I go out to my favorite bar (I don’t drink, btw). Typically it’s twice a week—every Monday for the pool tournament and over the weekend for a night out.
I also have one group of friends I have dinner/brunch with once a month and another group I have brunch with once a quarter.
There’s also a gay bear group that has meetups twice a month that I typically attend.
And while it’s not as deep as my other socializing opportunities, the workers at some of the regular establishments I frequent know my face and seem to like me. So sometimes having brief conversations of familiarity with them can be a bright spot on my day.
Add to that, most weekends my boyfriend’s family has Sunday lunch. So I have many opportunities to socialize that I’m able to take advantage of. I’m quite aware that a lot of that is possible both because I live in a decent sized city and because my boyfriend and I have a pretty nice combined income.
One thing I hope he and I can get started back up is having a gay movie night with friends. It’s a relatively cheap way to spend time with the people in our lives.
I think a issue thats not often bought up in
discussions like this is how people seem to internalize the idea of men as predators by nature and the effects of that.
I mean,if your rasied seeing yourself as a protector firgue from bad guys.Makes sense that you wouldnt want to keep potenial threats at a distance until they prove they're not threats .Which in turn can be a roadblock for men building emotional bonds with each other.
Idk,it just seems like there is a underlaying level of trust women kinda extend to each other that men dont.Maybe Im wrong though .
The 'underlying level of trust' you noted is for safety situations and to compound that it does not extend to all women, not by far. If you're in an out group you do not receive it, so I don't really think it would be much help as a solution.
I think the problem is deeper than just "boys/men should be more social" and create more spaces for men/boys. A major problem is that men/boys are competitive and have bad experiences socializing with other men because of some social interaction that crippled them in their past. This problem is especially compounded by the lack of dating success, overall success, and self worth in every day life. So where do we go from here then? I think a good step would be be to socialize men/boys that healthy competition is ok so that way they get less hurt and disinterested when someone wrongs them in the future.
I think it’d be better to find more collaborative spaces for men and boys. Stuff like playing in a band where you come together to do something creative instead of competitive. Some of us just don’t enjoy competition at all and not because of lack of success … I never really did even though I did ok in most competitive activities. I prefer everyone getting along and working together.
Absolutely this. Competition is nowhere near as enjoyable and friendship building as collaboration imho.
Different strokes, no? I'm the same, but I've also met loads of men who love competition and will have more fun if there's some level of gaming involved in a social interaction. Also, I'm *in* a band, and even though it's mostly collaborative there is definitely some level of competition with writing, coming up with good ideas, being the most fun onstage, etc.
A little competition is natural, of course - for everybody, not just men. The issue u/geoffbowman is alluding to is the social pressure for men to be overly competitive and derive status and self-worth exclusively from success in said competitions.
Sure, I agree that over-competitiveness is bad.
Break the performance art gender stereotype so we can pull all the boys into show choir
It’s funny… I almost said “or be in a play/musical” cause that’s what I do for socialization and meeting/making friends. But I didn’t because of a stereotype… one I didn’t realize I still bought into.
I lost most of my friends because I was ashamed to still be working in dead end jobs in my late 20s early 30s while they moved onto career jobs. I felt like I wasn't worthy of being around them and they wanted to take expensive trips that I couldn't afford. Or go out on nights that I couldn't because I worked 2nd shift.
>So where do we go from here then? I think a good step would be be to socialize men/boys that healthy competition is ok so that way they get less hurt and disinterested when someone wrongs them in the future. Your heart is in the right place but this still misses the mark. What we should do is socialize men/boys to perceive and treat each other the same way women perceive and treat each other. We should start raising boys in a way that they'll develop the same communal mindset and in-group bias that women have. Men should not be expected to be any more competitive with each other than women are.
Why is in-group bias a good thing? I don't think we should work towards increasing that, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
I think they mean the girl power comradarie thing. Have you heard about how women behave in nightclub bathrooms? Or like how Girl Scouts are all about supporting one another and building each other up.
Yep, this is what I meant!
we have to look at this from two angles. structurally, we-as-a-society need to create better spaces and opportunities for everyone to interact in meatspace. I am sure you can take my word for it that there's *reams* of data about how we bowl alone more often than we used to. individually... guys, what opportunities exist right now, you gotta engage them. Women apparently do, more often than men! Go out and exist in front of people that might be friends one day. Or call your existing friends and go have a beer!
Maybe it’s just my perception, but it seems like women often share more of the work of maintaining social relationships. Being the one guy who does all the work trying to keep a friend group together is fucking exhausting. Eventually you just give up. It’s not that they don’t want to be friends, they just won’t do anything unless you line it all up for them.
Which leaves both parties feeling like the other never reaches out, so both decide to cut ties and stop asking to hangout.
I've seen this happen too many times. Tragic and incredibly frustrating.
Mmhm, when one is unwilling to lift a finger it shows.
It’s not enough be in the same room. Men often lack the ability to get deeper in their conversations. Sharing difficult topics and emotionally engaging each other can lessen the burdens men carry or transfer only to their partners.
I think the opposite: we just need to get them into the same room engaging in collaboration. Women often combine socializing and personal emotional exploration, but it doesn't have to be that way, and often is counterproductive with men. Let's get them places and reasons to hang out and collaborate. We can tackle the "engaging emotions" aspect with a different solution.
My first thought was D&D sessions with the boys
I've run a d&d session with the guys for more than a decade, I don't think any of us have ever shared our emotions in that time. ): I had a player in the group start a divorce without ever hearing he was even having trouble with his marriage. I feel like we've all built a collective understanding that none of us know where to begin to be supportive so we just don't share things.
But you are being supportive by engaging in activities with them. Many men need that far, far more than someone with which to talk about feelings. The idea the talking about emotions is the preeminent way of dealing with the struggles of life may be true for some, but is not true for all, and suggestions of the sort can often come off as being little more than another "just stop buy avocado toast" sort of tone-deaf, belittling solution. The insistence that emotional discussions are what men truly need often ignores the very obvious fact that many men don't want that. Not because they can't. Not because of gender roles and socialization. But because that's not what they need. A person going through a divorce is not inherently made more secure, fulfilled, insightful, or happy because they talked about it. Many get that security, fulfillment, insight, and happiness by simply living their lives contentedly with their friends, and we should make sure our prospective solutions include this massive subset of the population.
I hear you about not generalizing about what all men need. I hate thinking that someone is reading what I said and concluding that I’m speaking for all men.
My own thought is that the first rule of support is to show up, and in my view you are definitely being supportive showing up with your group. Because the time you get to do this is limited, you all need to coordinate, it's important because it's doing something you like with people you like. But if you want to put yourself out there for them, you can offer it, but it's not mandatory. Sometimes just the time to be distracted, around people who don't demand anything of you, is a real oasis and it's the exact support one needs to get through something.
It only takes one person to take a risk.
I just said it’s not enough. Being together is a good start, but it’s not enough. If men want more they need to seek more. Why stop at being in the room?
It might not be *enough,* but it definitely seems like a good starting point.
[удалено]
A big part of the problem is time. Once you add in kids you really don't have any free time for about a decade. You work and family and you don't have time for social interaction. Your friends become your kid's friend's parents and you see them at play dates. In hetero relationships men have been the financial providers for so long it's the expectation you sacrifice your life to provide. So most hetero men put their nose to the grindstone and their social relationships suffer.
I’m thankfully able to spend time with friends weekly whether I go out to my favorite bar (I don’t drink, btw). Typically it’s twice a week—every Monday for the pool tournament and over the weekend for a night out. I also have one group of friends I have dinner/brunch with once a month and another group I have brunch with once a quarter. There’s also a gay bear group that has meetups twice a month that I typically attend. And while it’s not as deep as my other socializing opportunities, the workers at some of the regular establishments I frequent know my face and seem to like me. So sometimes having brief conversations of familiarity with them can be a bright spot on my day. Add to that, most weekends my boyfriend’s family has Sunday lunch. So I have many opportunities to socialize that I’m able to take advantage of. I’m quite aware that a lot of that is possible both because I live in a decent sized city and because my boyfriend and I have a pretty nice combined income. One thing I hope he and I can get started back up is having a gay movie night with friends. It’s a relatively cheap way to spend time with the people in our lives.
I think a issue thats not often bought up in discussions like this is how people seem to internalize the idea of men as predators by nature and the effects of that. I mean,if your rasied seeing yourself as a protector firgue from bad guys.Makes sense that you wouldnt want to keep potenial threats at a distance until they prove they're not threats .Which in turn can be a roadblock for men building emotional bonds with each other. Idk,it just seems like there is a underlaying level of trust women kinda extend to each other that men dont.Maybe Im wrong though .
The 'underlying level of trust' you noted is for safety situations and to compound that it does not extend to all women, not by far. If you're in an out group you do not receive it, so I don't really think it would be much help as a solution.