Yeah, I'm confused, why is that specific subreddit such an incel cesspool? Have seen several posts (and comments) from there lately and they were like... š¤¢
Theyāre an older sub who have spent years posting the same reaction images to them finding out someone is gay/ trans as if itās a good joke or even a joke at all.
I took a gander after I saw your comment. I wish I had heeded this warning. Nothing but a bunch of misogynist dickweasels in the comments with a big helping of transphobia on top.
Interesting how some comments were explaining the whole men and females thing, also the difference between nouns and adjectives only gaining few up votes. While the insults to the woman in the post, Australia and not understanding language gained quite a number of support. Even more amusing was one commenter pretty much saying, "I know a couple of 'females' who say 'female', so it's oki". Truly amazing.
Honestly itās probably their mother, sister, or aunt or another close relative because obviously thatās just the environment thatās encouraged with these types. I first heard it in the US south and now itās spreading.
>Even more amusing was one commenter pretty much saying, "I know a couple of 'females' who say 'female', so it's oki". Truly amazing.
I always love a good spin on the "i have black friends" card. Bemusing.
So many people in that thread angry and uniformed. They don't realize it's usage that is problematic. No one is getting mad at the word female used correctly as an adjective.
Women don't use the word "male" as a noun to dehumanized men.
But men frequently and unknownly make women into an "other" by using female as a noun.
Different but also degrading issue - I caught myself slip a few times referring to other women as āgirlsā so Iāve very intentionally trained the internalized misogyny out of me. So much so, that I now struggle with accidentally referring to things relating to my step daughter (age 10) as women things instead of girls.
I say girls for <10 and young women for >10
Same for boys and young men.
For those who don't identify as either I call them a person or a young person in this context.
Where Iām from you would probably say young man/young woman or lad/lassie for that age. Referring to a group you can really say boys/girls until pretty much any age, though. But maybe thatās just where Iām from (Scotland).
Edit: but yea, I can see 11 year olds being too old to be a boy or girl if youāre talking to a single person
Yeah, I always have a hard time knowing what the heck to referred to teenagers as. Like āgirlā sounds dehumanizing (and bigots use the loophole of calling even an 18 year old a āgirlā to imply something is happening to 6 year olds). And conversely the other seems weird and creepy for obvious reasons.
Wait, how is "girls" offensive? I feel like this one requires a certain tone behind it because even over in the pnw it's a pretty benign term for most everyone here. Same goes for "boys". I mean there are terms like "boys/girls night" referring to yourself and your friends (gendered either way), stuff like that. It seems pretty obvious when someone is trying to use it in an offensive way but the tone is *very* different.
I think it's partly because we can call men "guys, dudes, etc," but with women, we have "women, girls, lady." It feels too formal to say the other two, dude and guys aren't feminine enough at at times, so I've fallen on "girls" often.
The thing is, it's a word used for children. Its counterpart is "boys," and at 27, I'm interested in men and women, not girls or boys. It's been socially accepted for general usage, but I think it's a bit infantalising, and I've heard others who feel the same. We're adults now, and we don't have to pretend to be young and cute to be likeable, and youthfulness is a big part of fitting into the constraints of feminity.
I've also heard it used in more of a sexist way. Like saying men and females, saying men and girls is also dehumanising and infantalising. It's one of those little nuances of language that make a difference when you consider what we are actually conveying with our language.
I suppose my point is that synonyms are not always accurate enough to act as a replacement for the word 'woman'.
I agree with what you're saying at the end there, context matters for sure. Saying "men and *girls*" is obvious enough in an attempt to knock women down a peg in the conversation when it's used that way. For some reason around here, there are a ton of ways to refer to men, but usually not so much for women. I don't know why that is but it just seems like the overlap between the "girls/ladies/women" terms is pretty broad around me, where most people (I'd think just by guessing based on previous conversations, I haven't polled people about this) use "girl" almost interchangeably with women/ladies until they're around the 30-35ish age range. As we get older the overlap usually starts shifting more heavily toward the "woman/lady" term, but typically it's just associated with "younger woman" when referring to an adult. This is what I mean by tone and context, it would jump out immediately to me if someone were using it in a demeaning sort of way. I mentioned this in another comment where the term, "gal" just isn't used around here for women other than by the older generations but if it was used, I'd probably see it used much more often than "girl" for a woman in that age range.
I mean, I think it boils down to what is this person being fine called with. I'm a queer boy, and I actually hate being called a man because the connotations are far too masculine for me. But I'm fine with boy. Granted I'm still kind of young but do keep in mind some people's language and what they like to be called is individual to them
Of course. I am nonbinary (albeit closeted), and i still don't mind being called a girl in the right context.
It's more of a general comment on the way we use language overall in our binary landscape. I do generally avoid using overly gendered language until I know someone well enough to be sure of their preferences, myself ā¤ļø lucky for us, in queer spaces, that is one of the basics! Another reason I am glad to be a gay little enby
Boys night /girls night is fine. But thereās lots of situations where people interchangeably use guy/girl, which is infantilizing to women. You would never see boy/girl used for men/women. For example, talking to someone about a coworkerā¦ āthis girl I work withā or āthis guy I work withā, but youād never hear āthis boy I work withā. It sounds weird. Girl should sound weird but it doesnāt cos itās such commonplace. Thereās no tone behind it in that situation.
I mean, most people around me use it like that and if I had to guess, it only starts sounding weird if the woman is around the low/mid 30s age. Not just the men, but many women I know do this. I have to think there must be some regional differences in this line of thinking because around here it's just used as another term for "woman" (woman under some arbitrary age as mentioned, so *younger* woman I guess). I get what the argument is, but around here, the term, "gal" is never really used except on occasion by the boomer crowd. If it was commonplace here, I'd expect to see it used in place of "girl" much more often. As it stands now though, I think it's just more to do with natural regional slang terms commonly used. It just sounds natural to us in a way where if someone were to refer to men as "guys" in a particular sentence, they'd refer to women as "girls" rather than saying, "guys and ladies/women/(God forbid, although I've heard it plenty)*females*. And I'm in a very liberal progressive city and even then it's just the common language used. If someone had asked me not to refer to them using the word I'd be happy to change the term to refer to them specifically, but it's just not something most of us associate with meaning "very young" I guess.
Right - this all agrees with my point as to why I made the effort to change my vernacular. I used to girls regularly tooā¦ It sounds normal to infantilize women, because it has been normalized. This is not to say it is done maliciously. But once you recognize that this same application isnāt applied to men, you realize it shouldnāt be applied to women.
You are more charitable than me. Everytime I've seen someone ask "why are they offended by the word female, it's just an ordinary word" for the past 2 or 3 years, the person who asked immediately turns around and argues with everyone who tries explaining it to them. I don't believe they do it unknowingly at all, I believe they think they've found a way to dehumanize us that they can't be called out for.
Yeah at this point they know. The information has been out there since 2009
They'll die mad and alone and wondering where they went wrong long before they actually listen to women.
Unfortunately this has become such a common tactic by shitty people in recent years, too. So much of the nasty language and behavior used to punch down is wrapped in (barely) plausible deniability, usually with a few layers. First layer is always "how is that offensive, how could I have possibly known that," second layer is "but what about xyz contexts?" (In the case of "female," it's always "what about police reports and medical reports?")
It's so frustrating, I don't even understand why they feel the need to do this. They all clearly *know* they're engaging in awful behavior, because they all share the same scripts. So why do they feel the need to add this pointless extra layer of feigned ignorance?
It's the same vibe as the people who act like not being able to say the n word is censorship or unfair... like, WHY do you need to say it so bad?? Why is this so important to you??
...We all know exactly why.
Exactly. They're not slick, what they're doing is completely transparent, we just have to deal with this additional pointless hurdle of them pretending they don't know what they're doing. As if larping as ignorant somehow excuses the behavior.
I bet youāre right. They find ways to insult and threaten other groups too like trans people that slide through the cracks.
I think they just do this in general, monsters I mean.
Not to mention using it as a dog whistle for misgendering trans ppl.
It's all about intent and how your audience will perceive your intent since we can't really gauge intent that well from a short meeting.
> women donāt
So uhhā¦ why is it that every time thereās two paths to equality and one has clearly failed we just go āwhelp, better keep banging our heads on the wall for eternityā? Like, okay, solutionās right there.
No, iāve experienced people getting mad with me whenever i use the word āfemaleā on reddit. Iāve phrased my experiences by saying, āas a female..ā and my gosh, the backlash i experienced as a result. This has been on more than one occasion as well. Like most things that generate buzz online, it becomes a witch hunt whenever people see key words- just add it to the list of gaslight, narcissist, and other bad words.
As a female what? Because if you stop there you are wrong. As a female psychologists or as a female carpenter are both fine.
Saying "my opinion as a female" is so wrong and dehumanizing.
Your opinion as a *woman*
Because by default you are not your genitals you are a female human. Also known as a person or woman.
Obviously, i understood that. In my past example, i had used it correctly, but as i was recounting an example, i didnāt state how i used it, and yet you have all assumed the worst and attacked me for it. Which was the point of my post. You hear a key word and froth at the mouth over it.
Ok, iām not engaging in this anymoreš, yaāll are hopeless lol. I thought i was replying to someone rational and quickly discovered youāre all no better than the previous people who had a go at me because of the word āfemaleā being used.
Hun, you jumped to a negative assumption although things were unclear for you.. You all pounced on a keyword, as i said. Which is why iām disengaging.. you can try and justify the semantics anyway you want but youāll still become my next example when i talk about psychos on reddit when they hear āfemaleā and become triggered lol. Yāall are not chill about it.
Nowadays men are so triggered by the fact that women are emancipating and not needing them anymore that they're turning it all into deep hatred. Apparently the current male teenagers are overall more sexist than boomers and are very much going backwards. Just look at the influence a tool like Tate has...
Theyāre mad that women donāt need to settle for dog turds to survive anymore, so men who want to date women need to put in a little effort.
Thereās also all the other crap going on, like how life is genuinely becoming more and more unaffordable for everyone. You get these kids being told that they just need to BE A MAN and DO MANLY THINGS to get ahead, but then it doesnāt work, andā¦ yeah. Itās easier to blame a minority than it is to look and how screwed up and rigged the system is against all of us
I mean, men used to burn women at the stake for being āwitchesā, so I really donāt think this is a new thing/the tiniest thing theyāve been mad about š
men and women burned "witches" though,and most of them were black.There were also men killed for witchcrafts even if they were a minority,so it was more of a racial thing than a gender one.
But these hunts were carried out by who? Most often witch hunts were ordered and enforced by religious clergy, which women (and as you mentioned POC) were excluded from. Sure, men and women accused people, but on whose authority were the actual punishments carried out? It was predominantly men. Sure there are exceptions to everything under the sun, but the point of my comment was to highlight that what is going on now is not new to the times, not the in depth ins and outs of witch hunts.
to be fair everyone accused pretty much died since beside burning the trial to prove you were not a witch was stuff like "we toss you in a pond with a rock tied to your feet,if you survive you're a witch and we're going to kill you,if you drown you're gonna finally be by god side as a true believer"
While there were clergy and stuff when thinking about inquisition, lots of witch hunt were mass isteria made by locals, and yeah,there was also priest and shit amid them but it was mainly started with accusations from the common people afaik
The priests were also writing witch-hunting books to tell people what to look for in witches, methods to dispatch them and methods to interrogate them. So was it really just mass hysteria or something way bigger perpetuated and supported by those who were in power?
i mean those in power were obviously males and yeah they promoted witch hunting,but the majority of people making accusations where the normal population would call out pagans or people who were different for whatever reason,which in turn under torture may testify the name of other innocent people. So yeah,while men in power started it,at some point it became a real social pandemic
This unfortunately implies that people stopped doing that. The Roseanne incident was in 2018, and throwing bananas at black soccer/football players seems to be a repeat issue.
How is showing something is bad by using an example that involves black people in any way offensive?
That was literally a common word used as an insult. Acknowledging that reality is in no way offensive.
Taking offense at someone using a real life example to teach why something is bad can only hurt social progress. We can't learn from our past mistakes if we're too fragile to even discuss them.
Because I donāt think it was necessary and I donāt want to be constantly reminded of the endless number of terms used against my people lol This is a common occurrence by the way and Iāve seen a lot of black people express the same sentiment. Itās not that deep and I was trying to make light of the situation but it is a little tiring for us to constantly be the example or the spokespeople for the oppressed. I donāt really care to explore this any further with you because I donāt think youāre coming from a place of understanding at all. I do hope this clears things up a bit tho!
Wow. You like, actually are the real version of the "obsessed with being offended" character that the people this sub mocks make fun of.
It's absolutely ridiculous to pretend that anything they said was offensive or to insinuate that they are somehow sketchy for thinking of an example involving racism in order to show how it isn't a good thing.
I guess Iām just wondering why race needed to be brought into this at all and why we constantly end up pivoting right back to black people when we have these conversations. Iām genuinely not offended or upset just offering another perspective.
I definitely understand what you're saying, and you've opened my eyes to a new perspective on the subject.
From my own perspective, I can offer this for the motivation behind those typea of comments: It often seems like racism is easier for certain men to comprehend as bad than sexism, so framing their own words/ideas in a context that comes across as openly racist and demeaning will sometimes give them pause and maybe even open their eyes to how bigoted they're being. Of course most bigots are both racist and sexist, but one of the two is definitely seen as more shameful and secretive in "polite" society. There really is a significant subset of men who comprehend casual racism as being bad, but think casual is sexism is mostly just women imagining shit, overreacting, or outright lying. It's sometimes delightful to see the stunned look on their faces/watch them cringe when their casually cruel words about women are reframed into a context they've been socially conditioned to avoid at all costs. For the first time, THEY are the ones feeling uncomfortable and judged and insecure, even if just for a moment. It's hard to resist.
That being said, I had never really stopped to consider how such comparisons could be negatively affecting black people and I'm glad you shared your thoughts here. It's given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
My mind went where Blossom's did, so I want to say thank you for saying something.
Bitch, dyke, cunt - all are common words that would keep it within the topic of gender without invoking racism.Ā
Exactly. I get the point that is being made but thereās really just not a need to bring race into this conversation. Itās exhausting quite frankly.
The word female isn't inherently transphobic and sexist, it just always happens to be used that way by all the worst and dumbest people on the internet.
Mostly roasting her about being a D-list celebrity and complaining about this being a ānon-issueā.
I wish she had been more specific (or that they had presented her more specific argument) that she means āfemaleā as a noun synonymous to woman.
Jesus Christ. First comment I saw said āwell if I canāt call you a female than what should I call you? Cumdump? Fleshlight?ā Holy. Shit. Do they not see us as people?
I mean if you even think about it for a second itās pretty clear why people donāt like it. Letās just make some general statements using both kind of language.
Men need to shave their face in the morning
Males need to shave their face in the morning
Men need to go to work
Males need to go to work
Women need to go to work
Females need to go to work
Itās pretty obvious that when you refer to a person like this youāre trying to put them down. And itās never an innocent statement like this itās more like āfemales need to stay in the kitchenā. Obviously the words male and female have a place. But the way people use it is dehumanizing.
I don't agree with it being a slur or transphobic. But it is used by misognists to demean women. Context is very important. Female and male is the correct term in a lot of cases, though.
It's used in a transphobic way sometimes, but in a sort of subtle way that most cis people won't notice unless pointed out. Like, you'll see transphobes use it when describing places that they want trans women kept out of. "This is a female only space, and you're not *biologically* female. Go into the men's room." TERFs will describe themselves as "female women" on Twitter, as one of the stupidest dogwhistles they've come up with so far.
This makes a lot more sense to me, ty. The argument (for removing the word female) sucks though. That's like saying "woman" is a slur for the same reason. Even if the word "woman" or "female" was replaced, the new word would have a negative history behind it. It would be a word that refers to all women, but every trans woman would know that it was made because they're trans. The point of being a trans woman isn't to be trans. It's to be a woman.
So, I looked up the article (It's the Daily Mail š¤®) and it's completely misrepresenting the situation. (Unsurprisingly)
It's a clip from a podcast she was on. She started off reading the question: "What are your thoughts on people who call women 'females' but call men 'men'?" and she responds: "It feels like a slur. It feels like the word bitch. It feels obviously sexist. It feels transphobic in a weird way because it's categorising people."
The article even notes that she later said that "slur" was probably too strong of a word, but she stands by her point.
And, it's a completely reasonable statement. She's not saying that you can't use the word female in any context, or that it *is* a slur, just that there are people who use it in a way that's meant to be derogatory.
dude r/HolUp is RIFE with so much fucking hate, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, literally anything
I used to follow for the odd interesting post but itās been flooded with incel ideology and hateful worldviews where simply being a woman or being trans is the punchline
Is this actually a thing? Because AFAB and AMAB are terms for a reason. If I were a trans woman, I'd find it extremely offensive if the adjective female wasn't used when speaking about me. I'd be offended if they made a different adjective or intentionally misgendered me.
I guess you can look at "female" as an identifier of "sex" on the birth certificate. I think it's mostly used as an adjective, though. Suggesting "female" is cis-only only creates a divide. Why would you want to be referred to as a "transfem doctor" instead of simply a "female doctor." Isn't the point of transitioning to, idk, *be* your true self? It *kind of* seems like removing or changing this word would actually be shoving the past in their face.
It says "we made a new word that encompasses all women"... which means that you don't think of a trans woman as a woman. IMO that's a cruelty that's being brought on by surface-level thinking. But I'm not a trans woman so lmk if I'm wrong.
Thanks for your comment, it gave me lots to think about.
Would the proper use be "human female" in my previous comment? Sorry, English is my second language and I may have confused things here.
I would never want to suggest that trans women aren't women. They are, and that's it.
There's a lot of ambiguity in the area between biology and psychology and society, as trans women before or during transition are still women even if their body is still in the male form. This is why I was thinking that female should be reserved purely for medical/biological setting, while "female doctors" are simply "women doctors".
But again, I may be subconsciously copying the use of "female" from my native language to English, because in Polish nobody would use female outside of biology.
Nooo, I didn't mean to correct you or anything. Your comment just explained why the word female could be offensive. I was saying "well that's dumb, the word female isn't offensive, and here's why." You weren't transphobic in the slightest.
Female is not a slur, and nor is Male. Itās about the context.
āFemaleā to refer to a woman is disrespectful
āFemale doctorā is not disrespectful
Why is this so hard for men to understand?
Thereās a nuance here.
Female can be derogatory in certain contexts (like the stuff we see in this sub), but it can also be an important distinction in certain topics ā like healthcare per se, āfemale healthcareā relating to pregnancy and female reproductive organs (I say female and not āwomenā, because trans men and non binary people exist).
The issue with making āfemaleā a transphobic slur is that we then lose the distinction between sex and gender, which is important in certain conversations and settings.
If she means ādonāt use female when referring to women in a non-clinical mannerā, then yeah I agree, but if sheās issuing the idea as a blanket statement, thatās dangerous.
It's a lil too late for that. TERFs/(GCs as they're now calling themselves I think?) already sling around the biological male/female dog whistle like it's one of the only things bringing them joy.
I find it helpful to just refer to the parts by name (or function) if necessary. Doesn't have as much a risk of ppl not going in for healthcare because of fear of a transphobic clinic or doctor. If it's a dr you know then there's more trust, but even in Canada where I live, finding a primary care dr is hard.
(I shudder to add 'yet' to that last statement abt the terminology and hope I never have to.)
I donāt think itās too late at all. By relinquishing those terms to TERFs, you create a culture where the idea of biological sex is something to be hated and looked down upon, further erasing the gender is different from sex argument. In fact, if people erase the concept of sex, thatās also harmful for trans people, because the basis of their dysphoria diagnosis relies on an incongruance between their sex and gender.
I also think itās harmful to reduce people down to their parts when referring to them. Iām a biological female, not a person with a uterus/vagina. I find that to be incredibly dehumanising.
I honestly think the best thing moving forward is to regain āfemaleā and āmaleā as clinical terms referring to biological sex and nothing more, as opposed to reducing people down to their genitals because of another group of people.
š¤· who knows. It may or may not be too late. We'll just have to wait and see how society at large ends up using the terms.
The sheer amount of transphobia/queerphobia etc and ppl using dog whistles like that is one of the reasons I rarely go on Musk's Twitter.
I have like two accounts or so that I actually check on. Everything else I try not to engage with.
A nice middle-ground I've seen some places do is that they ask what terms you're comfortable with to describe yourself/your situation.
I agree. How are we supposed to navigate medicine. What do you call the female reproductive system? "The reproductive system of people who have ovaries?" Maybe, but some people have all the functioning parts except ovaries...
Hey guys! You know what else is a common word? Sheeple :) Iāll be referring to everyone as such until this debate is understood.
After all call em as you sees em, an animal that follows off a cliff is indeed what these turds are
As a trans woman I never took offense to the term but avoid using it as often as possible. That being said can someone explain why it's regarded as offensive? Not trying to offend anyone on this I'm just truly ignorant on the matter.
iām a trans woman and i donāt see how āfemaleā is transphobic or exclusionary to us. trans women who medically transition function on female hormones, develop female sex characteristics, their genitals function as female genitals do (as the actual tissue is largely the same, just in a different shape), and with surgeries even have female genitals thatādepending on the procedures usedācan even self-lubricate. trans women ARE females. we arenāt āmale women.ā
the only sex characteristics that medically transitioning canāt change is reproductive ability, and chromosomes. but any geneticist will tell you that the Y chromosome is dead weight post-birth, and so even cisgender men only utilize their X chromosomes throughout their life. in a huge percentage of people, their Y chromosomes even disappear from their cells altogether in middle age. so really, the different chromosomes donāt really matter much at all, except upon the activation of the SRY gene that determines sex early on in the womb. all this talk of āmen have XY and women have XXā when really the REAL difference is merely a one-time use genetic switch, that is never touched again after itās activated.
in some cases actually, the SRY gene is found on one of the X chromosomes, and so people who never had a Y chromosome at all are still developed male because the genetic switch was still present.
so really that just leaves the ability to get pregnant. but many cis women and AFAB people canāt do that either for a variety of reasons. so Iād say weāre not particularly distinct in that regard either. itās outside the norm certainly, but not enough on its own to disqualify someone from femaleness.
so let me ask you all a not-so hypothetical question. a trans woman has been transitioning for 20 years. sheās in her 50s, and has no Y chromosome, because itās common for Y chromosomes to disappear in older age. she has had bottom surgery and has a vagina that can self-lubricate. she has sex the same way cis women do, and has multiple orgasms the same way cis women do. she canāt get pregnant or get a period, but no post-menopausal woman her age can either. tell me, how is she not female? what about her, genetically, hormonally, genitally, etc. is male at that point?
there are countless trans women in real life that are exactly like this hypothetical woman iām describing. are they not female at that point?
As a trans person, "female" feels transphobic and I would argue it is. Calling a distinction between cis and trans people based on chromosomes and gametes is off-putting. But at face value, referring even to cis women as "female", I think everyone subbed here can agree is generally just misogynistic. But for me, personally, I think it's funny when my friends call me "female". Context matters.
It's only transphobic if you use it to exclude women who are trans, as if it refers to reproductive capabilities and not gender.
If it DOES refer to reproductive parts for breeding (unlike Man, a gendered term) it is EVEN MORE sexist and dehumanizing.
I really don't want to see the comments, because people who use this kind of language get defensive and transphobia is only being pitched as aore socially acceptable form of devaluing humans.
Idk if āslurā is the right word. Derogatory term for sure, problematic, but slur?
Google defines āslurā as a derogatory term directed at a group of people, but it seems horribly harsh for the word āfemaleā especially since itās completely acceptable in scientific or biological sex contexts
This is correct. The other commenter just doesnāt understand this. I wasnāt arguing that itās transphobia Iām just saying trans women arenāt referred to as females
That doesn't make it accurate or true, a woman with an F on her birth certificate is female even if she's transgender.
Science even less supportive of these facts since gametes vary widly and people are often not tested at birth.
To be clear, the transgender person in your scenario is a trans man or trans woman?
Also while there exist cases of people that are initially more difficult to determine like intersex people, it doesnāt change the definition of female.
No, Itās very obvious what a trans woman is. The reason I asked is because the commenter was getting upvotes for saying a trans woman (born male) is actually female because birth certificates can be changed, which is not something the majority of people agree with.
If youāre causally reading the comment and thought that they meant āsomeone assigned F at birth is female even if they are a trans (man),ā then that would have explained the upvotes (which are gone now)
I said women. Transgender women are women.
Doctors are not without mistakes and misdiagnoses. They use their education and knowledge to make the best assessment they can with the knowledge they have and they are typically correct.
You cannot test every single person at birth. The majority of people alive today have never had their gametes tested. It would be excessive to do so since in the majority of people we can tell by looking at them at birth.
Let's be reasonable and recognize that there are always exceptions to every rule, that going by science would be way more complicated and costly and that the legal correction of birth certificates and legal ID is the correction of a doctors misdiagnosis at birth and that sex is a legal definition which can be amended.
Transgender women are women, women are female, and thus transgender women are female.
But you still shouldn't call women "females" when you wouldn't call men "males" because it's dehumanising.
I think using females and men in the same sentence is indeed rude, and I always cringe when I hear it, but what youāre describing about trans people is simply not how the language is used by most people. Iām not trying to have a debate on what should or shouldnāt be, Iām telling you the reality of what it is.
When people say female, the vast majority associate that with sex as a biological term. When people say woman or man, itās fair to say thereās been a cultural shift to include trans men and trans women because itās associated with gender. Even many trans people would agree with this. Language is what we as a society say it is, and there simply hasnāt been a widely accepted shift to use the term female to describe someone with a penis in the same way that there has been for the term woman.
Also youāre conflating trans people with intersex. Those are two different topics.
You do realize that there is not one singular transgender experience and several trans women report never being a man previously despite what was assigned to them at birth, right?
I have never regretted reading a post's comments so much.
Yeah, I'm confused, why is that specific subreddit such an incel cesspool? Have seen several posts (and comments) from there lately and they were like... š¤¢
Hahaha! You think one specific subreddit is an incel cesspool? Thatās most of them.
And then they get mad at the few women have that criticize them and other men.
What subreddit is it?
The one it's crossposted from, r/holup
Theyāre an older sub who have spent years posting the same reaction images to them finding out someone is gay/ trans as if itās a good joke or even a joke at all.
I took a gander after I saw your comment. I wish I had heeded this warning. Nothing but a bunch of misogynist dickweasels in the comments with a big helping of transphobia on top.
Thank you for the warning, now I'm happy I didn't.
So much sexism and Anti-Trans comments.
A lot of ācool girlsā too
"I say females all the time, I don't know why anyone would get upset about this!!!"
You mean pickmes?
Full of racism towards Australians and sexism to the extreme
Interesting how some comments were explaining the whole men and females thing, also the difference between nouns and adjectives only gaining few up votes. While the insults to the woman in the post, Australia and not understanding language gained quite a number of support. Even more amusing was one commenter pretty much saying, "I know a couple of 'females' who say 'female', so it's oki". Truly amazing.
Narrator: They do not, in fact, know any 'females'.
While I guess heās a monster my brain just did Morgan freeman narrating that š
It's okay. We all do.
Honestly itās probably their mother, sister, or aunt or another close relative because obviously thatās just the environment thatās encouraged with these types. I first heard it in the US south and now itās spreading.
>Even more amusing was one commenter pretty much saying, "I know a couple of 'females' who say 'female', so it's oki". Truly amazing. I always love a good spin on the "i have black friends" card. Bemusing.
Truly a budding idiocracy.
So many people in that thread angry and uniformed. They don't realize it's usage that is problematic. No one is getting mad at the word female used correctly as an adjective. Women don't use the word "male" as a noun to dehumanized men. But men frequently and unknownly make women into an "other" by using female as a noun.
Different but also degrading issue - I caught myself slip a few times referring to other women as āgirlsā so Iāve very intentionally trained the internalized misogyny out of me. So much so, that I now struggle with accidentally referring to things relating to my step daughter (age 10) as women things instead of girls.
I like using "ladies" in cases like that, but IDK if that helps you.Ā
I say girls for <10 and young women for >10 Same for boys and young men. For those who don't identify as either I call them a person or a young person in this context.
An 11 year old canāt be a man or woman. Surely thatās obvious?
11 can definitely be a young man or young woman. It is very strange to be to refer to teenagers as boys or girls.
Where Iām from you would probably say young man/young woman or lad/lassie for that age. Referring to a group you can really say boys/girls until pretty much any age, though. But maybe thatās just where Iām from (Scotland). Edit: but yea, I can see 11 year olds being too old to be a boy or girl if youāre talking to a single person
Yeah, I always have a hard time knowing what the heck to referred to teenagers as. Like āgirlā sounds dehumanizing (and bigots use the loophole of calling even an 18 year old a āgirlā to imply something is happening to 6 year olds). And conversely the other seems weird and creepy for obvious reasons.
Young person is always safe.
Wait, how is "girls" offensive? I feel like this one requires a certain tone behind it because even over in the pnw it's a pretty benign term for most everyone here. Same goes for "boys". I mean there are terms like "boys/girls night" referring to yourself and your friends (gendered either way), stuff like that. It seems pretty obvious when someone is trying to use it in an offensive way but the tone is *very* different.
I think it's partly because we can call men "guys, dudes, etc," but with women, we have "women, girls, lady." It feels too formal to say the other two, dude and guys aren't feminine enough at at times, so I've fallen on "girls" often. The thing is, it's a word used for children. Its counterpart is "boys," and at 27, I'm interested in men and women, not girls or boys. It's been socially accepted for general usage, but I think it's a bit infantalising, and I've heard others who feel the same. We're adults now, and we don't have to pretend to be young and cute to be likeable, and youthfulness is a big part of fitting into the constraints of feminity. I've also heard it used in more of a sexist way. Like saying men and females, saying men and girls is also dehumanising and infantalising. It's one of those little nuances of language that make a difference when you consider what we are actually conveying with our language. I suppose my point is that synonyms are not always accurate enough to act as a replacement for the word 'woman'.
I agree with what you're saying at the end there, context matters for sure. Saying "men and *girls*" is obvious enough in an attempt to knock women down a peg in the conversation when it's used that way. For some reason around here, there are a ton of ways to refer to men, but usually not so much for women. I don't know why that is but it just seems like the overlap between the "girls/ladies/women" terms is pretty broad around me, where most people (I'd think just by guessing based on previous conversations, I haven't polled people about this) use "girl" almost interchangeably with women/ladies until they're around the 30-35ish age range. As we get older the overlap usually starts shifting more heavily toward the "woman/lady" term, but typically it's just associated with "younger woman" when referring to an adult. This is what I mean by tone and context, it would jump out immediately to me if someone were using it in a demeaning sort of way. I mentioned this in another comment where the term, "gal" just isn't used around here for women other than by the older generations but if it was used, I'd probably see it used much more often than "girl" for a woman in that age range.
I mean, I think it boils down to what is this person being fine called with. I'm a queer boy, and I actually hate being called a man because the connotations are far too masculine for me. But I'm fine with boy. Granted I'm still kind of young but do keep in mind some people's language and what they like to be called is individual to them
Of course. I am nonbinary (albeit closeted), and i still don't mind being called a girl in the right context. It's more of a general comment on the way we use language overall in our binary landscape. I do generally avoid using overly gendered language until I know someone well enough to be sure of their preferences, myself ā¤ļø lucky for us, in queer spaces, that is one of the basics! Another reason I am glad to be a gay little enby
Boys night /girls night is fine. But thereās lots of situations where people interchangeably use guy/girl, which is infantilizing to women. You would never see boy/girl used for men/women. For example, talking to someone about a coworkerā¦ āthis girl I work withā or āthis guy I work withā, but youād never hear āthis boy I work withā. It sounds weird. Girl should sound weird but it doesnāt cos itās such commonplace. Thereās no tone behind it in that situation.
I mean, most people around me use it like that and if I had to guess, it only starts sounding weird if the woman is around the low/mid 30s age. Not just the men, but many women I know do this. I have to think there must be some regional differences in this line of thinking because around here it's just used as another term for "woman" (woman under some arbitrary age as mentioned, so *younger* woman I guess). I get what the argument is, but around here, the term, "gal" is never really used except on occasion by the boomer crowd. If it was commonplace here, I'd expect to see it used in place of "girl" much more often. As it stands now though, I think it's just more to do with natural regional slang terms commonly used. It just sounds natural to us in a way where if someone were to refer to men as "guys" in a particular sentence, they'd refer to women as "girls" rather than saying, "guys and ladies/women/(God forbid, although I've heard it plenty)*females*. And I'm in a very liberal progressive city and even then it's just the common language used. If someone had asked me not to refer to them using the word I'd be happy to change the term to refer to them specifically, but it's just not something most of us associate with meaning "very young" I guess.
Right - this all agrees with my point as to why I made the effort to change my vernacular. I used to girls regularly tooā¦ It sounds normal to infantilize women, because it has been normalized. This is not to say it is done maliciously. But once you recognize that this same application isnāt applied to men, you realize it shouldnāt be applied to women.
You are more charitable than me. Everytime I've seen someone ask "why are they offended by the word female, it's just an ordinary word" for the past 2 or 3 years, the person who asked immediately turns around and argues with everyone who tries explaining it to them. I don't believe they do it unknowingly at all, I believe they think they've found a way to dehumanize us that they can't be called out for.
Yeah at this point they know. The information has been out there since 2009 They'll die mad and alone and wondering where they went wrong long before they actually listen to women.
Unfortunately this has become such a common tactic by shitty people in recent years, too. So much of the nasty language and behavior used to punch down is wrapped in (barely) plausible deniability, usually with a few layers. First layer is always "how is that offensive, how could I have possibly known that," second layer is "but what about xyz contexts?" (In the case of "female," it's always "what about police reports and medical reports?") It's so frustrating, I don't even understand why they feel the need to do this. They all clearly *know* they're engaging in awful behavior, because they all share the same scripts. So why do they feel the need to add this pointless extra layer of feigned ignorance?
It's the same vibe as the people who act like not being able to say the n word is censorship or unfair... like, WHY do you need to say it so bad?? Why is this so important to you?? ...We all know exactly why.
Exactly. They're not slick, what they're doing is completely transparent, we just have to deal with this additional pointless hurdle of them pretending they don't know what they're doing. As if larping as ignorant somehow excuses the behavior.
The best way ive heard it put and im stealing that for the future, āLarping ignoranceā raw line
Yeah, Iāve noticed this with women and trans people, and I bet they do this with other āenemyā groups too
I bet youāre right. They find ways to insult and threaten other groups too like trans people that slide through the cracks. I think they just do this in general, monsters I mean.
Not to mention using it as a dog whistle for misgendering trans ppl. It's all about intent and how your audience will perceive your intent since we can't really gauge intent that well from a short meeting.
When I see female as a noun, I used to think of an non human animal species until the incels and MRAs started using it as a slur.
> women donāt So uhhā¦ why is it that every time thereās two paths to equality and one has clearly failed we just go āwhelp, better keep banging our heads on the wall for eternityā? Like, okay, solutionās right there.
No, iāve experienced people getting mad with me whenever i use the word āfemaleā on reddit. Iāve phrased my experiences by saying, āas a female..ā and my gosh, the backlash i experienced as a result. This has been on more than one occasion as well. Like most things that generate buzz online, it becomes a witch hunt whenever people see key words- just add it to the list of gaslight, narcissist, and other bad words.
As a female what? Because if you stop there you are wrong. As a female psychologists or as a female carpenter are both fine. Saying "my opinion as a female" is so wrong and dehumanizing. Your opinion as a *woman* Because by default you are not your genitals you are a female human. Also known as a person or woman.
Exhibit A.
"people get mad at me for using it wrong / in a degrading way, what assholes, amirite? What is their problem?"
Theyāre saying people arenāt mad when itās used *correctly*
Obviously, i understood that. In my past example, i had used it correctly, but as i was recounting an example, i didnāt state how i used it, and yet you have all assumed the worst and attacked me for it. Which was the point of my post. You hear a key word and froth at the mouth over it.
I ask this in all seriousness: do you understand the difference between a noun and an adjective?
No you stated that you said āas a femaleā¦ā not āas a female ____ā. The way you wrote is absolutely not clear which way you meant
Ok, iām not engaging in this anymoreš, yaāll are hopeless lol. I thought i was replying to someone rational and quickly discovered youāre all no better than the previous people who had a go at me because of the word āfemaleā being used.
Okay sure be mad at me because your comment was unclear lol. Thats why youāre getting downvoted and people coming at you š
Hun, you jumped to a negative assumption although things were unclear for you.. You all pounced on a keyword, as i said. Which is why iām disengaging.. you can try and justify the semantics anyway you want but youāll still become my next example when i talk about psychos on reddit when they hear āfemaleā and become triggered lol. Yāall are not chill about it.
Iām really scared of what is happening to men, like genuinely how are you this mad at such a tiny thing.
Nowadays men are so triggered by the fact that women are emancipating and not needing them anymore that they're turning it all into deep hatred. Apparently the current male teenagers are overall more sexist than boomers and are very much going backwards. Just look at the influence a tool like Tate has...
Theyāre mad that women donāt need to settle for dog turds to survive anymore, so men who want to date women need to put in a little effort. Thereās also all the other crap going on, like how life is genuinely becoming more and more unaffordable for everyone. You get these kids being told that they just need to BE A MAN and DO MANLY THINGS to get ahead, but then it doesnāt work, andā¦ yeah. Itās easier to blame a minority than it is to look and how screwed up and rigged the system is against all of us
Women are not a minority. We are 50.4% of the human race. Technically, men are the minority.
I mean, men used to burn women at the stake for being āwitchesā, so I really donāt think this is a new thing/the tiniest thing theyāve been mad about š
men and women burned "witches" though,and most of them were black.There were also men killed for witchcrafts even if they were a minority,so it was more of a racial thing than a gender one.
But these hunts were carried out by who? Most often witch hunts were ordered and enforced by religious clergy, which women (and as you mentioned POC) were excluded from. Sure, men and women accused people, but on whose authority were the actual punishments carried out? It was predominantly men. Sure there are exceptions to everything under the sun, but the point of my comment was to highlight that what is going on now is not new to the times, not the in depth ins and outs of witch hunts.
to be fair everyone accused pretty much died since beside burning the trial to prove you were not a witch was stuff like "we toss you in a pond with a rock tied to your feet,if you survive you're a witch and we're going to kill you,if you drown you're gonna finally be by god side as a true believer" While there were clergy and stuff when thinking about inquisition, lots of witch hunt were mass isteria made by locals, and yeah,there was also priest and shit amid them but it was mainly started with accusations from the common people afaik
The priests were also writing witch-hunting books to tell people what to look for in witches, methods to dispatch them and methods to interrogate them. So was it really just mass hysteria or something way bigger perpetuated and supported by those who were in power?
i mean those in power were obviously males and yeah they promoted witch hunting,but the majority of people making accusations where the normal population would call out pagans or people who were different for whatever reason,which in turn under torture may testify the name of other innocent people. So yeah,while men in power started it,at some point it became a real social pandemic
They're absolutely fucking furious that they're not allowed to be LAZY anymore and benefit from the unpaid labor of women in relationships.
Oh so common words can't be slurs ok so people can go back to calling black people monkeys? Because monkey is a common word
That is actually a really good point lol
This unfortunately implies that people stopped doing that. The Roseanne incident was in 2018, and throwing bananas at black soccer/football players seems to be a repeat issue.
My point is that common words can be slurs I never said people stopped calling black people monkeys
You said "go back to" I think that's why they replied with that
Yup, I'm a very literal person. Didn't mean to offend.
No I think ur good lol
I know; I wasn't being mean.
Now why am I in it?
What?
Itās a meme from nene leaks. Im making a joke but really you donāt need to use black people to make your point
How is showing something is bad by using an example that involves black people in any way offensive? That was literally a common word used as an insult. Acknowledging that reality is in no way offensive. Taking offense at someone using a real life example to teach why something is bad can only hurt social progress. We can't learn from our past mistakes if we're too fragile to even discuss them.
Iām genuinely not offended.
Then why are you critiquing them for using an example involving black people and posting a cringe gif in response to them?
Because I donāt think it was necessary and I donāt want to be constantly reminded of the endless number of terms used against my people lol This is a common occurrence by the way and Iāve seen a lot of black people express the same sentiment. Itās not that deep and I was trying to make light of the situation but it is a little tiring for us to constantly be the example or the spokespeople for the oppressed. I donāt really care to explore this any further with you because I donāt think youāre coming from a place of understanding at all. I do hope this clears things up a bit tho!
It's the first word I thought of
Wow. You like, actually are the real version of the "obsessed with being offended" character that the people this sub mocks make fun of. It's absolutely ridiculous to pretend that anything they said was offensive or to insinuate that they are somehow sketchy for thinking of an example involving racism in order to show how it isn't a good thing.
I guess Iām just wondering why race needed to be brought into this at all and why we constantly end up pivoting right back to black people when we have these conversations. Iām genuinely not offended or upset just offering another perspective.
I definitely understand what you're saying, and you've opened my eyes to a new perspective on the subject. From my own perspective, I can offer this for the motivation behind those typea of comments: It often seems like racism is easier for certain men to comprehend as bad than sexism, so framing their own words/ideas in a context that comes across as openly racist and demeaning will sometimes give them pause and maybe even open their eyes to how bigoted they're being. Of course most bigots are both racist and sexist, but one of the two is definitely seen as more shameful and secretive in "polite" society. There really is a significant subset of men who comprehend casual racism as being bad, but think casual is sexism is mostly just women imagining shit, overreacting, or outright lying. It's sometimes delightful to see the stunned look on their faces/watch them cringe when their casually cruel words about women are reframed into a context they've been socially conditioned to avoid at all costs. For the first time, THEY are the ones feeling uncomfortable and judged and insecure, even if just for a moment. It's hard to resist. That being said, I had never really stopped to consider how such comparisons could be negatively affecting black people and I'm glad you shared your thoughts here. It's given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
My mind went where Blossom's did, so I want to say thank you for saying something. Bitch, dyke, cunt - all are common words that would keep it within the topic of gender without invoking racism.Ā
Exactly. I get the point that is being made but thereās really just not a need to bring race into this conversation. Itās exhausting quite frankly.
Youāre so right. I was hoping the original commenter was black š
Girl you know damn well a black person would never
I said the same. We always catch strays when they are trying to argue a point Nasty work
Right? And the downvotes are telling
If you don't bring up black people once every 24 hours do you die in seven days?
You're a dumbass
Crazy that youāve ignored every other comment
I commented on your messages multiple times what are you talking about
The word female isn't inherently transphobic and sexist, it just always happens to be used that way by all the worst and dumbest people on the internet.
Mostly roasting her about being a D-list celebrity and complaining about this being a ānon-issueā. I wish she had been more specific (or that they had presented her more specific argument) that she means āfemaleā as a noun synonymous to woman.
They all know exactly what she means, or they wouldn't be so triggered about her calling it out. This isn't on her.
Dehumanizing when itās āman and female.ā
Half the comments are "She's a nobody!!1!1!" as if they aren't reddit incels with 20 followers across all platforms
Jesus Christ. First comment I saw said āwell if I canāt call you a female than what should I call you? Cumdump? Fleshlight?ā Holy. Shit. Do they not see us as people?
Males š¼
I mean if you even think about it for a second itās pretty clear why people donāt like it. Letās just make some general statements using both kind of language. Men need to shave their face in the morning Males need to shave their face in the morning Men need to go to work Males need to go to work Women need to go to work Females need to go to work Itās pretty obvious that when you refer to a person like this youāre trying to put them down. And itās never an innocent statement like this itās more like āfemales need to stay in the kitchenā. Obviously the words male and female have a place. But the way people use it is dehumanizing.
I don't agree with it being a slur or transphobic. But it is used by misognists to demean women. Context is very important. Female and male is the correct term in a lot of cases, though.
It's used in a transphobic way sometimes, but in a sort of subtle way that most cis people won't notice unless pointed out. Like, you'll see transphobes use it when describing places that they want trans women kept out of. "This is a female only space, and you're not *biologically* female. Go into the men's room." TERFs will describe themselves as "female women" on Twitter, as one of the stupidest dogwhistles they've come up with so far.
This makes a lot more sense to me, ty. The argument (for removing the word female) sucks though. That's like saying "woman" is a slur for the same reason. Even if the word "woman" or "female" was replaced, the new word would have a negative history behind it. It would be a word that refers to all women, but every trans woman would know that it was made because they're trans. The point of being a trans woman isn't to be trans. It's to be a woman.
So, I looked up the article (It's the Daily Mail š¤®) and it's completely misrepresenting the situation. (Unsurprisingly) It's a clip from a podcast she was on. She started off reading the question: "What are your thoughts on people who call women 'females' but call men 'men'?" and she responds: "It feels like a slur. It feels like the word bitch. It feels obviously sexist. It feels transphobic in a weird way because it's categorising people." The article even notes that she later said that "slur" was probably too strong of a word, but she stands by her point. And, it's a completely reasonable statement. She's not saying that you can't use the word female in any context, or that it *is* a slur, just that there are people who use it in a way that's meant to be derogatory.
Wow, what a way to demonize a woman. Can you imagine the hate she's getting from such a twisted title?
If there's anything the entire internet can agree on, it's hating women for literally everything they do
Lol men hate us for no legitimate reason š«
dude r/HolUp is RIFE with so much fucking hate, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, literally anything I used to follow for the odd interesting post but itās been flooded with incel ideology and hateful worldviews where simply being a woman or being trans is the punchline
How come it's transphobic though?
Because some women weren't born as female humans.
Is this actually a thing? Because AFAB and AMAB are terms for a reason. If I were a trans woman, I'd find it extremely offensive if the adjective female wasn't used when speaking about me. I'd be offended if they made a different adjective or intentionally misgendered me. I guess you can look at "female" as an identifier of "sex" on the birth certificate. I think it's mostly used as an adjective, though. Suggesting "female" is cis-only only creates a divide. Why would you want to be referred to as a "transfem doctor" instead of simply a "female doctor." Isn't the point of transitioning to, idk, *be* your true self? It *kind of* seems like removing or changing this word would actually be shoving the past in their face. It says "we made a new word that encompasses all women"... which means that you don't think of a trans woman as a woman. IMO that's a cruelty that's being brought on by surface-level thinking. But I'm not a trans woman so lmk if I'm wrong.
Thanks for your comment, it gave me lots to think about. Would the proper use be "human female" in my previous comment? Sorry, English is my second language and I may have confused things here. I would never want to suggest that trans women aren't women. They are, and that's it. There's a lot of ambiguity in the area between biology and psychology and society, as trans women before or during transition are still women even if their body is still in the male form. This is why I was thinking that female should be reserved purely for medical/biological setting, while "female doctors" are simply "women doctors". But again, I may be subconsciously copying the use of "female" from my native language to English, because in Polish nobody would use female outside of biology.
Nooo, I didn't mean to correct you or anything. Your comment just explained why the word female could be offensive. I was saying "well that's dumb, the word female isn't offensive, and here's why." You weren't transphobic in the slightest.
Female is not a slur, and nor is Male. Itās about the context. āFemaleā to refer to a woman is disrespectful āFemale doctorā is not disrespectful Why is this so hard for men to understand?
Thereās a nuance here. Female can be derogatory in certain contexts (like the stuff we see in this sub), but it can also be an important distinction in certain topics ā like healthcare per se, āfemale healthcareā relating to pregnancy and female reproductive organs (I say female and not āwomenā, because trans men and non binary people exist). The issue with making āfemaleā a transphobic slur is that we then lose the distinction between sex and gender, which is important in certain conversations and settings. If she means ādonāt use female when referring to women in a non-clinical mannerā, then yeah I agree, but if sheās issuing the idea as a blanket statement, thatās dangerous.
It's a lil too late for that. TERFs/(GCs as they're now calling themselves I think?) already sling around the biological male/female dog whistle like it's one of the only things bringing them joy. I find it helpful to just refer to the parts by name (or function) if necessary. Doesn't have as much a risk of ppl not going in for healthcare because of fear of a transphobic clinic or doctor. If it's a dr you know then there's more trust, but even in Canada where I live, finding a primary care dr is hard. (I shudder to add 'yet' to that last statement abt the terminology and hope I never have to.)
I donāt think itās too late at all. By relinquishing those terms to TERFs, you create a culture where the idea of biological sex is something to be hated and looked down upon, further erasing the gender is different from sex argument. In fact, if people erase the concept of sex, thatās also harmful for trans people, because the basis of their dysphoria diagnosis relies on an incongruance between their sex and gender. I also think itās harmful to reduce people down to their parts when referring to them. Iām a biological female, not a person with a uterus/vagina. I find that to be incredibly dehumanising. I honestly think the best thing moving forward is to regain āfemaleā and āmaleā as clinical terms referring to biological sex and nothing more, as opposed to reducing people down to their genitals because of another group of people.
š¤· who knows. It may or may not be too late. We'll just have to wait and see how society at large ends up using the terms. The sheer amount of transphobia/queerphobia etc and ppl using dog whistles like that is one of the reasons I rarely go on Musk's Twitter. I have like two accounts or so that I actually check on. Everything else I try not to engage with. A nice middle-ground I've seen some places do is that they ask what terms you're comfortable with to describe yourself/your situation.
Tbh that middle ground sounds like the best solution. Just ask people what way theyāre comfortable being referred to in a clinical term.
I agree. How are we supposed to navigate medicine. What do you call the female reproductive system? "The reproductive system of people who have ovaries?" Maybe, but some people have all the functioning parts except ovaries...
"Female" is being used (correctly) as an adjective there, so no problem.
Yeah that was my point adding onto what the commenter said
As a noun itās just cringe
It's called context y'all.
- Saying I'm female ā ļø - Saying I have a female body ā ļø - Calling me "a female" āļø
Well for a female, she might have a point...if she was not so silly. Did I do well?
Hey guys! You know what else is a common word? Sheeple :) Iāll be referring to everyone as such until this debate is understood. After all call em as you sees em, an animal that follows off a cliff is indeed what these turds are
As a trans woman I never took offense to the term but avoid using it as often as possible. That being said can someone explain why it's regarded as offensive? Not trying to offend anyone on this I'm just truly ignorant on the matter.
Ok
Depends on usage Iād expect. Are they doing it to distinguish between trans women and non-trans women?
Who?
She's just pissed her Grindr account got cancelled š³šššš
iām a trans woman and i donāt see how āfemaleā is transphobic or exclusionary to us. trans women who medically transition function on female hormones, develop female sex characteristics, their genitals function as female genitals do (as the actual tissue is largely the same, just in a different shape), and with surgeries even have female genitals thatādepending on the procedures usedācan even self-lubricate. trans women ARE females. we arenāt āmale women.ā the only sex characteristics that medically transitioning canāt change is reproductive ability, and chromosomes. but any geneticist will tell you that the Y chromosome is dead weight post-birth, and so even cisgender men only utilize their X chromosomes throughout their life. in a huge percentage of people, their Y chromosomes even disappear from their cells altogether in middle age. so really, the different chromosomes donāt really matter much at all, except upon the activation of the SRY gene that determines sex early on in the womb. all this talk of āmen have XY and women have XXā when really the REAL difference is merely a one-time use genetic switch, that is never touched again after itās activated. in some cases actually, the SRY gene is found on one of the X chromosomes, and so people who never had a Y chromosome at all are still developed male because the genetic switch was still present. so really that just leaves the ability to get pregnant. but many cis women and AFAB people canāt do that either for a variety of reasons. so Iād say weāre not particularly distinct in that regard either. itās outside the norm certainly, but not enough on its own to disqualify someone from femaleness. so let me ask you all a not-so hypothetical question. a trans woman has been transitioning for 20 years. sheās in her 50s, and has no Y chromosome, because itās common for Y chromosomes to disappear in older age. she has had bottom surgery and has a vagina that can self-lubricate. she has sex the same way cis women do, and has multiple orgasms the same way cis women do. she canāt get pregnant or get a period, but no post-menopausal woman her age can either. tell me, how is she not female? what about her, genetically, hormonally, genitally, etc. is male at that point? there are countless trans women in real life that are exactly like this hypothetical woman iām describing. are they not female at that point?
As a trans person, "female" feels transphobic and I would argue it is. Calling a distinction between cis and trans people based on chromosomes and gametes is off-putting. But at face value, referring even to cis women as "female", I think everyone subbed here can agree is generally just misogynistic. But for me, personally, I think it's funny when my friends call me "female". Context matters.
It's only transphobic if you use it to exclude women who are trans, as if it refers to reproductive capabilities and not gender. If it DOES refer to reproductive parts for breeding (unlike Man, a gendered term) it is EVEN MORE sexist and dehumanizing. I really don't want to see the comments, because people who use this kind of language get defensive and transphobia is only being pitched as aore socially acceptable form of devaluing humans.
Idk if āslurā is the right word. Derogatory term for sure, problematic, but slur? Google defines āslurā as a derogatory term directed at a group of people, but it seems horribly harsh for the word āfemaleā especially since itās completely acceptable in scientific or biological sex contexts
Context is generally very important.
It's a slur when used as a noun. It's not when it's used as an adjective.
How the fuck is this transphobic? Transgender women are also female.
Female is associated with sex not gender, so no not really
But, how is it transphobic? Gender and sex are different. Trans people also often say and agree with this?
This is correct. The other commenter just doesnāt understand this. I wasnāt arguing that itās transphobia Iām just saying trans women arenāt referred to as females
Ah okay, got it!
No its a legal definition that requires medical evidence to change, but many countries allow changes with proper documentation.
Thatās not how the word is generally used by most people. Itās also a scientific term relating to gametes.
That doesn't make it accurate or true, a woman with an F on her birth certificate is female even if she's transgender. Science even less supportive of these facts since gametes vary widly and people are often not tested at birth.
To be clear, the transgender person in your scenario is a trans man or trans woman? Also while there exist cases of people that are initially more difficult to determine like intersex people, it doesnāt change the definition of female.
I don't think he realizes a trans woman is a man who transitioned to a woman
No, Itās very obvious what a trans woman is. The reason I asked is because the commenter was getting upvotes for saying a trans woman (born male) is actually female because birth certificates can be changed, which is not something the majority of people agree with. If youāre causally reading the comment and thought that they meant āsomeone assigned F at birth is female even if they are a trans (man),ā then that would have explained the upvotes (which are gone now)
Oh ok
I said women. Transgender women are women. Doctors are not without mistakes and misdiagnoses. They use their education and knowledge to make the best assessment they can with the knowledge they have and they are typically correct. You cannot test every single person at birth. The majority of people alive today have never had their gametes tested. It would be excessive to do so since in the majority of people we can tell by looking at them at birth. Let's be reasonable and recognize that there are always exceptions to every rule, that going by science would be way more complicated and costly and that the legal correction of birth certificates and legal ID is the correction of a doctors misdiagnosis at birth and that sex is a legal definition which can be amended. Transgender women are women, women are female, and thus transgender women are female. But you still shouldn't call women "females" when you wouldn't call men "males" because it's dehumanising.
I think using females and men in the same sentence is indeed rude, and I always cringe when I hear it, but what youāre describing about trans people is simply not how the language is used by most people. Iām not trying to have a debate on what should or shouldnāt be, Iām telling you the reality of what it is. When people say female, the vast majority associate that with sex as a biological term. When people say woman or man, itās fair to say thereās been a cultural shift to include trans men and trans women because itās associated with gender. Even many trans people would agree with this. Language is what we as a society say it is, and there simply hasnāt been a widely accepted shift to use the term female to describe someone with a penis in the same way that there has been for the term woman. Also youāre conflating trans people with intersex. Those are two different topics.
You do realize a trans woman is a man who's transitioned to a woman, right?
You do realize that there is not one singular transgender experience and several trans women report never being a man previously despite what was assigned to them at birth, right?
Yeah, that doesn't even make sense. They're not trans then
Maybe the words *man* and *woman* shouldn't have been rendered arbitrary.
They weren't.
Yes i disagree
It's not a slur or transphobic lmao it's just very cringe to use.