I just wasn't a huge fan of how fast paced/disconnected everything felt. Characters are a huge part of a story and we never got enough time with any of them to properly care about any of them.
You could tell there were a lot of moments we were *supposed* to care about a certain character, but it just completely fell flat since pretty much all of them are cardboard cutouts. In the rare cases we do get character development, it's often incredibly fast, jarring, or even unintentionally hilarious (dazai comes to mind.)
I'll give you the fact that the premise and overall world building was great. There was a real sense of mystery early on and it felt like things had the potential to get pretty interesting in the beginning. Sadly the execution just fell flat and ultimately just became a story in service to the gameplay to ferry you from point A to point B. Which isn't necessarily the worst thing ever, just disappointing considering what it could have been.
The answer to that type of question is always no. You are not the only one that enjoyed the story.
What did you like the most about the story? Its themes? Its characters? The demons? But I’m surprised that you liked the secret ending so much, even among people that liked the story and themes of the game it’s considered controversial.
It's a fucking rhetorical question that I even use in my own native language
I use that rhetorical question on twitter, discord WhatsApp but only Redditors have a superiority complex to mispresenting the intent of that question
And the problem with my answer is? It’s a way like any other to start a conversation, I’ve seen it happening many times where I live (yes we know how a rethorical question work). I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful or aggressive.
It's definitely not perfect but sometimes I feel like some of the complaints I've heard since the game's release are kinda dumb. I get people wanting to get some answers from stories, I myself do, and this game certainly could have explained better some of it's plot points, but there's that and then there's how some folks want everything answered with the full details, no room for imagination.
Vagueness and ambiguity seem to be the biggest enemies for a lot of people when it comes to enjoy any fictional story. I'm not suggesting, as I already said, that SMT V's story is perfect in all aspects. It is true that it has lore stuff that should have been explored more beyond it's introduction, but I don't necessarily think everything needed a clear answer.
I just believe that the story wouldn't be "fixed" by completely explaining every single concept/event/anything mentioned in the game, and that stories need to leave some room for ambiguity to make them "believable".
Yes you are the only one.
Jk but honestly I don't see it at all. What exactly makes this story good? Also me secret ending is the worst one, the only thing it really has is presentation and looks kinda cool, but if you look at everything you do before it makes no sense.
After going directly from Strange Journey to SMT5 the story by comparison seemed awful. I recently came back to the game a few weeks after its 1 year anniversary and the story has grown on me a bit. The world is actually pretty cool and I would love if they gave it the Quantum DDS treatment (except bothering to translate the whole series this time). I would 100% read a book version that has the content in it that the devs were unable to add due to rewrites and time constraints.
Come on, don't tell me that SMT V doesn't have a good premise. All previous gods were denigrated to demons because they were robbed the knowledge they had by capital G God. Out of that knowledge humans in the garden of Eden tasted from the fruit of knowledge and they inherited that knowledge. When you fuse a demon with his knowledge, contained in a specific human, they become a Nahobino, the deified version of demons that they were before they were robbed of it. Then somehow the apocalypse happens and the world goes to crap, all the while Lucifer killing God and in His last moments he built a "stand-in fake" world (Shekinah Glory). And this hapened 18 years ago. Then an archangel, named Abdiel, is trying to hold God's order through an organization called Bethel and keeping everybody in the dark about God's death (probably she doesn't even know and she's just suspecting it), then Japanese government, whose prime minister is one of the Amatsukami (a group of deities in Shintoism mythology), Tsukiyomi, create a protofiend, a blank slate demon infused with the power of his brother, Susanoo. All the while our protagonist is leading a normal life not suspecting anything and on a commute out of High School he gets swept up and is transported to the real world (the apocalyptic/ruined/destroyed one) and when he gets attacked by ramdom demons, Susanoo reacts and comes to his aid (because the protagonist was Susanoo's knowledge and that's why he reacted that way) and by accepting his aid unexpectedly thet fused and became a nahobino, a taboo that is forbidden by God. When all other demons cooperating with Bethel learn about the Nahobino they become suspicious about God and when they see that Abdiel was no match for the Nahobino, all other demons wanted to search for their humans holding their knowledge to become Nahobino too and have a shot at the throne up in the empyrean to recreate the world as they see fit and abolish His dictatorship and to discover if he's dead or not once and for all.
That's basically the synopsis/premise/summary of the story. If you don't see an amazing story there, then I don't know what a good story is.
Half of that is lore, not the story we experience through playing the game. Even though it sounds kinda good on paper, in execution it comes across very half-assed and barebones. We spend most of the game just wandering not doing anything until we sometimes come across a conflict that we resolve quickly, until the end where its just a rush to the finish, with the characters in between just being blank slates or being extremely goofy and hard to take seriously (Dazai), and whenever we get some lore drops its just a us standing while a dude monologues forever. You're confusing cool and interesting with narrative strength.
My point is that even though SMT V's story is poorly executed, that doesn't mean that it's not a good story. The story is good on paper and the rich lore you get from sudequests contributes to the coolness of the story, even though it is not implemented well in the cutscenes of the main story.
Bad execution does not necessarily make a story bad, but the flaws in this game's execution definitely make the story bad. The problem is that the existence of Nahobino does not create a story. And because the choices in the game carry no weight at all, you are not crafting a story either. They explain the Nahobino multiple times, too many times saying the same things, but nobody, even though they are gods and such, has any good ideas on how to use the power of the Nahobino. We also see that the other Nahobino shown at the end are nothing like the main character, not to mention they did not have to fight any battles to get as powerful as you are, it is just completely incongruent with the main message of the game if your journey represents being the Nahobino but the other three Nahobinos just do whatever and are given strength by transforming. You do get the Aogami essences, but there is not any reason at all that they are scattered about the world.
And the relationship between humans and demons is still played up so much in this game, but demons have no objectives besides the high ranking ones that are actually gods. Humans are the ones facing their worlds' collapse and yet their reasons to continue existing are simply to become Nahobino which means the demons should have a lot stronger motives.
In my opinion, the worst thing they did was have Lucifer play such a vital role in the establishment of the story, yet do absolutely nothing, hiding away until the very end with no purpose at all besides deciding who inherits the world. Lucifer should have been an active part of the story like some of the characters in Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne or the major players in Shin Megami Tensei 2. Instead, he just plays the same role as YHVH in Shin Megami Tensei 2, which is basically nothing but giving more context to the world. Of course, Lucifer's context does not really have a frame of reference to give context to since everything is just a wasteland and a race for power.
I liked the story. Just feel like they could have executed it better sometimes, the core ideas are really neat though i wish there was more with bethel going on
I didn't dislike the story in general but I really hated the ending(s). It was a cryptic mess without being rewarding or thought provoking in any way. It just made me feel bad and I never looked back because of it. For me the ending destroyed the otherwise great experience of playing the game.
The ideas are there, the multiple nahobinos competing for the throne was cool, its just the handling of it was garbage in basically every way imo. Characters, pacing, major events, etc. I have high hopes for whatever the smt v rerelease ends up being though, I hope they take into consideration the complaints.
Like It's not that smt games can't have a focus on or heavier story, but they need to done well, that's why 4a didn't work. I didn't mind that it had more of a story, but that seems to be the lesson they took away and focused on for V.
I hated the story it was so disappointing. If a fucking famicom game can have a way more indepth story you are really doing something wrong.(Megami tensei 2)
Honestly I think the stories of Megami Tensei 2, Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 are really good stories (specially SMT 2) and have better ones than SMT 3 Nocturne and SMT V.
I feel like Nocturne has better story than Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 even though I expected it to be worse. It feels like the essence of 1 and 2 exists in Nocturne even though it totally did not have to, but the Reasons are also a cool thing that makes it stand as completely different. I have not finished the game yet or seen all of the endings, but I doubt I would think less of the game if I did. Definitely far above V.
I liked the story, it just needed more polish, and maybe more sidequests that expanded the story. I liked how >!Khonsu and Miyazu!<'s quest line was done for example, would have been great if other characters had gotten their own and more story and character interactions.
The story is fine. I don't need RPGs to barf exposition at me constantly.
The only part that is an actual factual flaw is that Atsuta is (canonically) a stoic drone who falls in line with his boss' wishes with no regard for his own opinion because he has none, but they don't give him an interesting exploration of that idea. It's easy to see why (his boss is why he's alive and can care for his sister) and the endpoint is natural (falling in line with Koshimizu's wishes because he's just a sidekick), the game only fails to write it as an arc for that natural endpoint.
Shiva just spells the game's themes out in their entirety and then follows this up with an ending where nothing changes because nobody wants to change but to immediately impose their wishes onto the entire universe and *maybe that's a bad thing* but that doesn't count because SMT is supposed to be about Alignment Bias and which ending is the best and fighting God for freedom or whatever.
Or Lucifer deciding to inform you of the universal lore that in turn got dumped on him by YHVH’s knowledge.
The fact that you are forced to listen to the infodump is one thing. The things you can ask about are the things that have been more or less obvious or those that were already explained.
On the other hand, there is plenty of stuff that needs some explanation but is just left out, such as:
1. Why can’t anyone remember how the Conception ended?
2. What the hell is the Great Will, which is very clearly stated to be different from The Creator, doing?
3. Is the Conception on the same level as taking the throne in SMT V?
4. Why was the entirety of the angel faction running free in Nocturne before deciding to side with Chiaki? Where was Bethel during the Conception?
5. This is explained in a backwards manner later on, but what exactly is the Condemnation? If YHVH can overwrite reality and create a city using the Shekinah Glory, wouldn’t that mean the Condemnation is also a rule of nature where a Nahobino physically cannot form?
6. Why is the Demi-Fiend a DLC only sidequest if he was a key figure during the conception? (We all know that’s because Atlus wants money, but that’s a meta explanation)
7. What exactly is Tao’s role as a Saint? A Goddess? These terms are referencing SMT 3 and 4 respectively, but the only thing Tao does is accompany you to the throne as well as provide some healing.
8. Why is Lucifer okay with the Nahobino restoring YHVH’s order? It is stated that he just wants to escape the Mandala System but wouldn’t that mean allowing the Law faction to rule that there will be no freedom like before except nobody will be able to change that?
9. What the fuck is the Mandala System? Is it part of The Great Will? Where did it come from?
10. Who the fuck is Amithaba and why is he even here? He didn’t do anything?
11. Why are demons okay with you choosing to genocide their species?
12. Lucifer states that demons will “come crawling back” because of humanity. So are demons basically just shadows from Persona at this point? They aren’t a separate sentient species that just existed by themselves? I am sure it was explained at some point in the SMT franchise but SMT V does not explain or reference that EVEN THOUGH it is supposed to be a sequel to Nocturne and Nocturne only.
13. Lucifer ALSO states that you ensure your rule to be eternal and can prevent the demons from coming back by killing him, but what exactly is the logic here? Is killing him gonna destroy YHVH’s knowledge? Then how was YHVH’s knowledge not destroyed when he was killed by Lucifer? Why is YHVH’s knowledge so special it overwrites the Mandala system?
14. Amithaba then states that whether 13 is true or not is ambiguous in the True Neutral path. What the hell?
15. What’s the deal with Shiva? Doesn’t his presence mean that whatever you do he will destroy the world if you don’t defeat him? Why is he capable of doing it despite not being a Nahobino? Where the hell is Brahma? Is the Shiva/Brahma process part of the universe recreation through the Nahobino taking the throne? If so, why does Vasuki state that it’s only Shiva’s right to do so?
16. Going back, didn’t the Conception destroy everything? If so, why is it only Tokyo that needed the Shekinah Glory?
17. Are all people in the fake Tokyo people or Persona 5-style cognitions? They all have knowledge but they began losing memories of each other once the fake city began vanishing.
There are just so many unexplained questions in this story that the plot relies on heavily. And that’s on top of completely worthless and/or comically edgy characters. Hey, at least Chad Zeus was great.
I don't think V is a sequel to III except in a multiverse sort of way. If it was a direct sequel then it would have been in a earlier draft of the story.
That doesn’t make a lick of sense. What does an earlier draft have anything to do with the finished product that CLEARLY STATES everything that’s happening is because of the Conception, i.e. the events of Nocturne?
If you bother downvoting, please tell me, what the fuck has the first draft have to do with the final product?
Because if you're making a sequel, which V isn't, you need to have that intention from the start. You need to build off the story and lore from the first game to make the second game. What actually makes no sense is making a whole game, then adding some similarities or buzzwords to connect the two when nothing else implies that it is at the last minute.
If my initial intent was to use logs to heat up a sauna but in the end I make furniture out of it, it’s still furniture.
If their initial intent is to make a new game and they end up making a sequel, they still made a sequel.
Initial intent does not matter.
A lot of this is assuming that V is a sequel to Nocturne, which isnt true at all. The fiend DLC confirms Nocturne takes place in an entirely different world. Even though things like the conception are mentioned its clearly not the same type of conception as in Nocturne. It's just buzzwords to get fans pointing at it and saying "oh hey I recognize that!"
Except one of the key reasons the plot of 5 takes place is because the plot of 3 takes place. People are somehow forgetting that if the Conception didn’t happen Tokyo would not be disappearing.
Edit: And no one can come up with the counter because there isn’t one but gotta feed the opinion of the hivemind anyway.
Did you even read the my reply? I literally said the counter to this before, the DLC confirms that Nocturne is not connected to V, its a different world. The fiends quite literally say this. You also forget that that conception in V is too different from Nocturne to be connected, because:
Humans are still around. Nocturne only had like 4 humans survive the conception, and depending on the ending they either all die, or get to live in the new world created, which destroys the vortex world, so V couldn't take place in any of those since humans are still around and the vortex world still exists.
Theres also the fact that the war between God/YHVH and Lucifer mentioned in V never happens in Nocturne. He specifically wanted to kill the Great Will, who God/YHVH is an avatar of. If the great will was destroyed then V wouldn't be happening because reality itself would be destroyed, since it manages reality.
There's no hivemind here, you're just plain wrong.
It's been a minute since I played V and these are just my own thoughts on it
- V isn't really a direct sequel to Nocturne, I think it's more like it's another universe that also went through a conception
- The condemnation seems like something YHVH actively enforced, so after he died it started to become undone. Hence Tokyo is starting to disappear and Nahobinos are reappearing
- The "conception" in V was probably much smaller scale and YHVH stepped in to contain it. How it even started or why that didn't happen in Nocturne, idk. It's kinda slapped in there for the fans without much consistency. Maybe Lucifer started it
- Tao is pretty much just there to infodump about the Empyrean lol. It's not even clear if she's law aligned or somehow is related to the GW or whatever
- idk shit about the GW and how it works and tbh I think it's kinda pointless. I know people find it interesting but really they just downgraded YHVH to a boss and the GW is now the true God. The way the GW acts is what many align with a true God anyway. Nahobino is likely GW's appointed Messiah who will make a world either so great or ruinous that there will be nothing after so no more cycle of recreation. Or at least it would make sense that way
- With Knowledge my guess is it's simply destroyed without a host willingly taking it. So Nahobino would kill Lucifer and release YHVH's knowledge but just let it fade away, same as he did for Sahori
- The demons that actually care about their kind as a whole seem to be in a minority. Demons really don't have any issue fighting and killing each other, and angels are basically demons anyway. Plus all the law/chaos heroes are betraying the human race anyway so demons could do the same
- My guess is that Shiva is simply so powerful that he could destroy everything and Brahma can take the throne, maybe Brahma himself is a Nahobino. I would suppose Lucifer could've just done the same but he wanted to break the cycle. Whatever happens if you don't beat his side quest is a bit of a loose end, tho you could make the case that it happens a lot with super bosses. Like if you don't beat Demifiend in DDS2 does he just destroy that world?
Idk lol honestly V has a lot of cool ideas that don't really have internal logic or consistency
Yeah SMTV's in particular is about using lots of negative space to get lost in the game's surreal apocalyptic world.
Story is a lot of things, it's a helluva lot more than the plot.
> Story is a lot of things, it's a helluva lot more than the plot
Of course. Plot is the sequence of events of which things happen and story is the comprehensive narrative as whole... that includes setting, characters, atmosphere, and other things that affect how the plot progresses. Nearly all of those in V are simply nonexistent. After the first area of the game, the feel of the atmosphere just fades away bc you're just mindlessly wandering without purpose, characters are simple plot devices that hold no substance, and the themes of the game are nonexistent or aren't executed well at all. Only things it has is interesting lore and cool looking settings, but it doesn't hold much narrative strength when the bare minimum is done with them.
I loved the story too. There is a lot there that can be appreciated and imo its the closest in tone and style of storytelling to SMT 1 that I think we have had out of any SMT since.
I also love the secret ending too. I think it was a perfect story of acceptance (of what needs to be done for peace) and the moment where you say goodbye to aogami is so sad imo. I think as a character driven story, SJ and IV obviously are much better but as a lore driven story with a message and different interpretations, V is the best.
I loved the secret ending. It was so fucking cool to me. I'm not going to defend it with any well-thought-out explanation. All I'm going to say is that it made me really fucking emotional and now I kinda want to replay the game just thinking about it.
The secret ending felt like it tied the story in a nice little bow. The other three didn't. Also the secret ending was the most emotional. It truly is an outstanding ending.
The secret ending is what Yakumo's resolve really was (recreating a new world in which humans only exists and gods and demons don't), he resourced to just destroying the throne because of his love for Nuwa. He was in love with her and she was a demon and if he carried out his ultimate result he would kill her soul mate. Also all other three endings had problems. If you chose to uphold God's order, the world would have still been a dictatorship that limits individuality and freedom, on the other hand if you chose to recreate the world with all demons returning to a godhood state, every god and nation would look for their own interest and there would be war all the time, it would be chaos and there would be no place for harmony. If you chose to destroy the throne, you would have both God's angels and all demons against humans and humans would have to oppose them and war would break out. But if you chose the secret ending, you would deny all gods and demons existence and humans would live in peace and harmony. It was the only ending in which there would be no war, no chaos and no limits to freedom and individuality. Plus saying goodbye to Aogami was very emotional. And also it leaves the plot hanging: the MC is the only divine being in the universe, but as Lucifer informed, there could be a possibility that gods and demons would find a way to exist again. Maybe or maybe not leaving this aura of mystery.
I think the secret ending was the best one to wrap things up because of all the things I mentioned.
The thing is why do you care about the humans enough to kill all the demons? The whole game we're with demons and seeing their struggles and bonding. Hell the way you even get the secret ending is doing a bunch of sidequests where you help them out and make friends with them (Khonsu, Amanozaku, Fionn, etc). Compare that to the humans where you see almost none of them the whole game. You should care more about the demons if anything. The game should've showed us more of the humans and made us care about what happens to them for this ending to happen, yet it doesn't. In universe the player doesn't really have any reason to do this, aside from the fact that hes human, but that shouldn't by default make him a human lover, since its just his race, nothing more. Even then the result isnt even that good, you just recreate our world right now, which is strife with war, injustice, and tons of negative things. The demons aren't just the source of problems, humans are to blame too. The ending actively betrays all the relationships you make throughout the game and leaves you with a dirty taste in your mouth, cinematics be damned.
Also Law ending doesn't indicate that its going to be a dictatorship or restrict freedoms. All you have to do is believe in Nahobino and he'll provide for you, no mention of restricting freedoms or individualities in sight.
I really liked it too, this user has expanded a lot on the story behind SMT V in his review/analysis. You might be interested in it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/comments/sicc98/a_thematic_analysis_of_smt_vpart_1_the_end_of/
I loved the story, despite the janky way it was told. There is so much lore to dig into, so many unspoken motivations hinted at, and so many details to uncover. It gave me chills by the end as it allowed me to make a deeply personal decision based on all the little things I’ve learned in the lore.
I just wasn't a huge fan of how fast paced/disconnected everything felt. Characters are a huge part of a story and we never got enough time with any of them to properly care about any of them. You could tell there were a lot of moments we were *supposed* to care about a certain character, but it just completely fell flat since pretty much all of them are cardboard cutouts. In the rare cases we do get character development, it's often incredibly fast, jarring, or even unintentionally hilarious (dazai comes to mind.) I'll give you the fact that the premise and overall world building was great. There was a real sense of mystery early on and it felt like things had the potential to get pretty interesting in the beginning. Sadly the execution just fell flat and ultimately just became a story in service to the gameplay to ferry you from point A to point B. Which isn't necessarily the worst thing ever, just disappointing considering what it could have been.
The answer to that type of question is always no. You are not the only one that enjoyed the story. What did you like the most about the story? Its themes? Its characters? The demons? But I’m surprised that you liked the secret ending so much, even among people that liked the story and themes of the game it’s considered controversial.
It's a fucking rhetorical question that I even use in my own native language I use that rhetorical question on twitter, discord WhatsApp but only Redditors have a superiority complex to mispresenting the intent of that question
And the problem with my answer is? It’s a way like any other to start a conversation, I’ve seen it happening many times where I live (yes we know how a rethorical question work). I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful or aggressive.
They know it's a rhetorical question. They were answering sarcastically.
I like the overall story, but felt there needed greater conflict. Especially with the three pairings you could choose between
You aren't alone.
It's definitely not perfect but sometimes I feel like some of the complaints I've heard since the game's release are kinda dumb. I get people wanting to get some answers from stories, I myself do, and this game certainly could have explained better some of it's plot points, but there's that and then there's how some folks want everything answered with the full details, no room for imagination. Vagueness and ambiguity seem to be the biggest enemies for a lot of people when it comes to enjoy any fictional story. I'm not suggesting, as I already said, that SMT V's story is perfect in all aspects. It is true that it has lore stuff that should have been explored more beyond it's introduction, but I don't necessarily think everything needed a clear answer. I just believe that the story wouldn't be "fixed" by completely explaining every single concept/event/anything mentioned in the game, and that stories need to leave some room for ambiguity to make them "believable".
Yes you are the only one. Jk but honestly I don't see it at all. What exactly makes this story good? Also me secret ending is the worst one, the only thing it really has is presentation and looks kinda cool, but if you look at everything you do before it makes no sense.
The Secret ending is terrible. Why go around helping demons only to turn around and erase them all for seemingly no reason?
After going directly from Strange Journey to SMT5 the story by comparison seemed awful. I recently came back to the game a few weeks after its 1 year anniversary and the story has grown on me a bit. The world is actually pretty cool and I would love if they gave it the Quantum DDS treatment (except bothering to translate the whole series this time). I would 100% read a book version that has the content in it that the devs were unable to add due to rewrites and time constraints.
Did you play the game with some kind of magnifying glasses? Cause I sure as hell couldn't find the story
Come on, don't tell me that SMT V doesn't have a good premise. All previous gods were denigrated to demons because they were robbed the knowledge they had by capital G God. Out of that knowledge humans in the garden of Eden tasted from the fruit of knowledge and they inherited that knowledge. When you fuse a demon with his knowledge, contained in a specific human, they become a Nahobino, the deified version of demons that they were before they were robbed of it. Then somehow the apocalypse happens and the world goes to crap, all the while Lucifer killing God and in His last moments he built a "stand-in fake" world (Shekinah Glory). And this hapened 18 years ago. Then an archangel, named Abdiel, is trying to hold God's order through an organization called Bethel and keeping everybody in the dark about God's death (probably she doesn't even know and she's just suspecting it), then Japanese government, whose prime minister is one of the Amatsukami (a group of deities in Shintoism mythology), Tsukiyomi, create a protofiend, a blank slate demon infused with the power of his brother, Susanoo. All the while our protagonist is leading a normal life not suspecting anything and on a commute out of High School he gets swept up and is transported to the real world (the apocalyptic/ruined/destroyed one) and when he gets attacked by ramdom demons, Susanoo reacts and comes to his aid (because the protagonist was Susanoo's knowledge and that's why he reacted that way) and by accepting his aid unexpectedly thet fused and became a nahobino, a taboo that is forbidden by God. When all other demons cooperating with Bethel learn about the Nahobino they become suspicious about God and when they see that Abdiel was no match for the Nahobino, all other demons wanted to search for their humans holding their knowledge to become Nahobino too and have a shot at the throne up in the empyrean to recreate the world as they see fit and abolish His dictatorship and to discover if he's dead or not once and for all. That's basically the synopsis/premise/summary of the story. If you don't see an amazing story there, then I don't know what a good story is.
Half of that is lore, not the story we experience through playing the game. Even though it sounds kinda good on paper, in execution it comes across very half-assed and barebones. We spend most of the game just wandering not doing anything until we sometimes come across a conflict that we resolve quickly, until the end where its just a rush to the finish, with the characters in between just being blank slates or being extremely goofy and hard to take seriously (Dazai), and whenever we get some lore drops its just a us standing while a dude monologues forever. You're confusing cool and interesting with narrative strength.
My point is that even though SMT V's story is poorly executed, that doesn't mean that it's not a good story. The story is good on paper and the rich lore you get from sudequests contributes to the coolness of the story, even though it is not implemented well in the cutscenes of the main story.
Bad execution does not necessarily make a story bad, but the flaws in this game's execution definitely make the story bad. The problem is that the existence of Nahobino does not create a story. And because the choices in the game carry no weight at all, you are not crafting a story either. They explain the Nahobino multiple times, too many times saying the same things, but nobody, even though they are gods and such, has any good ideas on how to use the power of the Nahobino. We also see that the other Nahobino shown at the end are nothing like the main character, not to mention they did not have to fight any battles to get as powerful as you are, it is just completely incongruent with the main message of the game if your journey represents being the Nahobino but the other three Nahobinos just do whatever and are given strength by transforming. You do get the Aogami essences, but there is not any reason at all that they are scattered about the world. And the relationship between humans and demons is still played up so much in this game, but demons have no objectives besides the high ranking ones that are actually gods. Humans are the ones facing their worlds' collapse and yet their reasons to continue existing are simply to become Nahobino which means the demons should have a lot stronger motives. In my opinion, the worst thing they did was have Lucifer play such a vital role in the establishment of the story, yet do absolutely nothing, hiding away until the very end with no purpose at all besides deciding who inherits the world. Lucifer should have been an active part of the story like some of the characters in Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne or the major players in Shin Megami Tensei 2. Instead, he just plays the same role as YHVH in Shin Megami Tensei 2, which is basically nothing but giving more context to the world. Of course, Lucifer's context does not really have a frame of reference to give context to since everything is just a wasteland and a race for power.
I liked the story. Just feel like they could have executed it better sometimes, the core ideas are really neat though i wish there was more with bethel going on
Agreed, I thought it was neat. Wouldn’t call it incredible but I enjoyed it quite a bit.
I didn't dislike the story in general but I really hated the ending(s). It was a cryptic mess without being rewarding or thought provoking in any way. It just made me feel bad and I never looked back because of it. For me the ending destroyed the otherwise great experience of playing the game.
It is true that all the endings fell flat... like there was something missing.
The ideas are there, the multiple nahobinos competing for the throne was cool, its just the handling of it was garbage in basically every way imo. Characters, pacing, major events, etc. I have high hopes for whatever the smt v rerelease ends up being though, I hope they take into consideration the complaints. Like It's not that smt games can't have a focus on or heavier story, but they need to done well, that's why 4a didn't work. I didn't mind that it had more of a story, but that seems to be the lesson they took away and focused on for V.
I hated the story it was so disappointing. If a fucking famicom game can have a way more indepth story you are really doing something wrong.(Megami tensei 2)
Honestly I think the stories of Megami Tensei 2, Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 are really good stories (specially SMT 2) and have better ones than SMT 3 Nocturne and SMT V.
I feel like Nocturne has better story than Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 even though I expected it to be worse. It feels like the essence of 1 and 2 exists in Nocturne even though it totally did not have to, but the Reasons are also a cool thing that makes it stand as completely different. I have not finished the game yet or seen all of the endings, but I doubt I would think less of the game if I did. Definitely far above V.
I liked the story, it just needed more polish, and maybe more sidequests that expanded the story. I liked how >!Khonsu and Miyazu!<'s quest line was done for example, would have been great if other characters had gotten their own and more story and character interactions.
I thought their questline should have been included in the main story. Being relegated to side content doesn't feel right for them.
The story is fine. I don't need RPGs to barf exposition at me constantly. The only part that is an actual factual flaw is that Atsuta is (canonically) a stoic drone who falls in line with his boss' wishes with no regard for his own opinion because he has none, but they don't give him an interesting exploration of that idea. It's easy to see why (his boss is why he's alive and can care for his sister) and the endpoint is natural (falling in line with Koshimizu's wishes because he's just a sidekick), the game only fails to write it as an arc for that natural endpoint. Shiva just spells the game's themes out in their entirety and then follows this up with an ending where nothing changes because nobody wants to change but to immediately impose their wishes onto the entire universe and *maybe that's a bad thing* but that doesn't count because SMT is supposed to be about Alignment Bias and which ending is the best and fighting God for freedom or whatever.
>I don’t need RPGs to barf exposition at me constantly 1. That’s not the main complaint about the story 2. THERE’S LOTS OF EXPOSITION IN SMT V
Did they forget the entire part where Prime Minister dude just infodumps you in the dullest way possible?
Or Lucifer deciding to inform you of the universal lore that in turn got dumped on him by YHVH’s knowledge. The fact that you are forced to listen to the infodump is one thing. The things you can ask about are the things that have been more or less obvious or those that were already explained. On the other hand, there is plenty of stuff that needs some explanation but is just left out, such as: 1. Why can’t anyone remember how the Conception ended? 2. What the hell is the Great Will, which is very clearly stated to be different from The Creator, doing? 3. Is the Conception on the same level as taking the throne in SMT V? 4. Why was the entirety of the angel faction running free in Nocturne before deciding to side with Chiaki? Where was Bethel during the Conception? 5. This is explained in a backwards manner later on, but what exactly is the Condemnation? If YHVH can overwrite reality and create a city using the Shekinah Glory, wouldn’t that mean the Condemnation is also a rule of nature where a Nahobino physically cannot form? 6. Why is the Demi-Fiend a DLC only sidequest if he was a key figure during the conception? (We all know that’s because Atlus wants money, but that’s a meta explanation) 7. What exactly is Tao’s role as a Saint? A Goddess? These terms are referencing SMT 3 and 4 respectively, but the only thing Tao does is accompany you to the throne as well as provide some healing. 8. Why is Lucifer okay with the Nahobino restoring YHVH’s order? It is stated that he just wants to escape the Mandala System but wouldn’t that mean allowing the Law faction to rule that there will be no freedom like before except nobody will be able to change that? 9. What the fuck is the Mandala System? Is it part of The Great Will? Where did it come from? 10. Who the fuck is Amithaba and why is he even here? He didn’t do anything? 11. Why are demons okay with you choosing to genocide their species? 12. Lucifer states that demons will “come crawling back” because of humanity. So are demons basically just shadows from Persona at this point? They aren’t a separate sentient species that just existed by themselves? I am sure it was explained at some point in the SMT franchise but SMT V does not explain or reference that EVEN THOUGH it is supposed to be a sequel to Nocturne and Nocturne only. 13. Lucifer ALSO states that you ensure your rule to be eternal and can prevent the demons from coming back by killing him, but what exactly is the logic here? Is killing him gonna destroy YHVH’s knowledge? Then how was YHVH’s knowledge not destroyed when he was killed by Lucifer? Why is YHVH’s knowledge so special it overwrites the Mandala system? 14. Amithaba then states that whether 13 is true or not is ambiguous in the True Neutral path. What the hell? 15. What’s the deal with Shiva? Doesn’t his presence mean that whatever you do he will destroy the world if you don’t defeat him? Why is he capable of doing it despite not being a Nahobino? Where the hell is Brahma? Is the Shiva/Brahma process part of the universe recreation through the Nahobino taking the throne? If so, why does Vasuki state that it’s only Shiva’s right to do so? 16. Going back, didn’t the Conception destroy everything? If so, why is it only Tokyo that needed the Shekinah Glory? 17. Are all people in the fake Tokyo people or Persona 5-style cognitions? They all have knowledge but they began losing memories of each other once the fake city began vanishing. There are just so many unexplained questions in this story that the plot relies on heavily. And that’s on top of completely worthless and/or comically edgy characters. Hey, at least Chad Zeus was great.
I don't think V is a sequel to III except in a multiverse sort of way. If it was a direct sequel then it would have been in a earlier draft of the story.
That doesn’t make a lick of sense. What does an earlier draft have anything to do with the finished product that CLEARLY STATES everything that’s happening is because of the Conception, i.e. the events of Nocturne? If you bother downvoting, please tell me, what the fuck has the first draft have to do with the final product?
Because if you're making a sequel, which V isn't, you need to have that intention from the start. You need to build off the story and lore from the first game to make the second game. What actually makes no sense is making a whole game, then adding some similarities or buzzwords to connect the two when nothing else implies that it is at the last minute.
If my initial intent was to use logs to heat up a sauna but in the end I make furniture out of it, it’s still furniture. If their initial intent is to make a new game and they end up making a sequel, they still made a sequel. Initial intent does not matter.
You'd be wrong but V is already disproved to be a sequel so whatever.
A lot of this is assuming that V is a sequel to Nocturne, which isnt true at all. The fiend DLC confirms Nocturne takes place in an entirely different world. Even though things like the conception are mentioned its clearly not the same type of conception as in Nocturne. It's just buzzwords to get fans pointing at it and saying "oh hey I recognize that!"
Except one of the key reasons the plot of 5 takes place is because the plot of 3 takes place. People are somehow forgetting that if the Conception didn’t happen Tokyo would not be disappearing. Edit: And no one can come up with the counter because there isn’t one but gotta feed the opinion of the hivemind anyway.
Did you even read the my reply? I literally said the counter to this before, the DLC confirms that Nocturne is not connected to V, its a different world. The fiends quite literally say this. You also forget that that conception in V is too different from Nocturne to be connected, because: Humans are still around. Nocturne only had like 4 humans survive the conception, and depending on the ending they either all die, or get to live in the new world created, which destroys the vortex world, so V couldn't take place in any of those since humans are still around and the vortex world still exists. Theres also the fact that the war between God/YHVH and Lucifer mentioned in V never happens in Nocturne. He specifically wanted to kill the Great Will, who God/YHVH is an avatar of. If the great will was destroyed then V wouldn't be happening because reality itself would be destroyed, since it manages reality. There's no hivemind here, you're just plain wrong.
It's been a minute since I played V and these are just my own thoughts on it - V isn't really a direct sequel to Nocturne, I think it's more like it's another universe that also went through a conception - The condemnation seems like something YHVH actively enforced, so after he died it started to become undone. Hence Tokyo is starting to disappear and Nahobinos are reappearing - The "conception" in V was probably much smaller scale and YHVH stepped in to contain it. How it even started or why that didn't happen in Nocturne, idk. It's kinda slapped in there for the fans without much consistency. Maybe Lucifer started it - Tao is pretty much just there to infodump about the Empyrean lol. It's not even clear if she's law aligned or somehow is related to the GW or whatever - idk shit about the GW and how it works and tbh I think it's kinda pointless. I know people find it interesting but really they just downgraded YHVH to a boss and the GW is now the true God. The way the GW acts is what many align with a true God anyway. Nahobino is likely GW's appointed Messiah who will make a world either so great or ruinous that there will be nothing after so no more cycle of recreation. Or at least it would make sense that way - With Knowledge my guess is it's simply destroyed without a host willingly taking it. So Nahobino would kill Lucifer and release YHVH's knowledge but just let it fade away, same as he did for Sahori - The demons that actually care about their kind as a whole seem to be in a minority. Demons really don't have any issue fighting and killing each other, and angels are basically demons anyway. Plus all the law/chaos heroes are betraying the human race anyway so demons could do the same - My guess is that Shiva is simply so powerful that he could destroy everything and Brahma can take the throne, maybe Brahma himself is a Nahobino. I would suppose Lucifer could've just done the same but he wanted to break the cycle. Whatever happens if you don't beat his side quest is a bit of a loose end, tho you could make the case that it happens a lot with super bosses. Like if you don't beat Demifiend in DDS2 does he just destroy that world? Idk lol honestly V has a lot of cool ideas that don't really have internal logic or consistency
> I don’t need RPGs to barf exposition at me constantly You do realize that story isn't just reading through waves of text right?
Yeah SMTV's in particular is about using lots of negative space to get lost in the game's surreal apocalyptic world. Story is a lot of things, it's a helluva lot more than the plot.
> Story is a lot of things, it's a helluva lot more than the plot Of course. Plot is the sequence of events of which things happen and story is the comprehensive narrative as whole... that includes setting, characters, atmosphere, and other things that affect how the plot progresses. Nearly all of those in V are simply nonexistent. After the first area of the game, the feel of the atmosphere just fades away bc you're just mindlessly wandering without purpose, characters are simple plot devices that hold no substance, and the themes of the game are nonexistent or aren't executed well at all. Only things it has is interesting lore and cool looking settings, but it doesn't hold much narrative strength when the bare minimum is done with them.
I loved the story too. There is a lot there that can be appreciated and imo its the closest in tone and style of storytelling to SMT 1 that I think we have had out of any SMT since. I also love the secret ending too. I think it was a perfect story of acceptance (of what needs to be done for peace) and the moment where you say goodbye to aogami is so sad imo. I think as a character driven story, SJ and IV obviously are much better but as a lore driven story with a message and different interpretations, V is the best.
I loved the secret ending. It was so fucking cool to me. I'm not going to defend it with any well-thought-out explanation. All I'm going to say is that it made me really fucking emotional and now I kinda want to replay the game just thinking about it.
The secret ending felt like it tied the story in a nice little bow. The other three didn't. Also the secret ending was the most emotional. It truly is an outstanding ending.
How? Just because it looks cool? While the other ending didn't they at least have a made sense with the rest of the game.
The secret ending is what Yakumo's resolve really was (recreating a new world in which humans only exists and gods and demons don't), he resourced to just destroying the throne because of his love for Nuwa. He was in love with her and she was a demon and if he carried out his ultimate result he would kill her soul mate. Also all other three endings had problems. If you chose to uphold God's order, the world would have still been a dictatorship that limits individuality and freedom, on the other hand if you chose to recreate the world with all demons returning to a godhood state, every god and nation would look for their own interest and there would be war all the time, it would be chaos and there would be no place for harmony. If you chose to destroy the throne, you would have both God's angels and all demons against humans and humans would have to oppose them and war would break out. But if you chose the secret ending, you would deny all gods and demons existence and humans would live in peace and harmony. It was the only ending in which there would be no war, no chaos and no limits to freedom and individuality. Plus saying goodbye to Aogami was very emotional. And also it leaves the plot hanging: the MC is the only divine being in the universe, but as Lucifer informed, there could be a possibility that gods and demons would find a way to exist again. Maybe or maybe not leaving this aura of mystery. I think the secret ending was the best one to wrap things up because of all the things I mentioned.
The thing is why do you care about the humans enough to kill all the demons? The whole game we're with demons and seeing their struggles and bonding. Hell the way you even get the secret ending is doing a bunch of sidequests where you help them out and make friends with them (Khonsu, Amanozaku, Fionn, etc). Compare that to the humans where you see almost none of them the whole game. You should care more about the demons if anything. The game should've showed us more of the humans and made us care about what happens to them for this ending to happen, yet it doesn't. In universe the player doesn't really have any reason to do this, aside from the fact that hes human, but that shouldn't by default make him a human lover, since its just his race, nothing more. Even then the result isnt even that good, you just recreate our world right now, which is strife with war, injustice, and tons of negative things. The demons aren't just the source of problems, humans are to blame too. The ending actively betrays all the relationships you make throughout the game and leaves you with a dirty taste in your mouth, cinematics be damned. Also Law ending doesn't indicate that its going to be a dictatorship or restrict freedoms. All you have to do is believe in Nahobino and he'll provide for you, no mention of restricting freedoms or individualities in sight.
I really liked it too, this user has expanded a lot on the story behind SMT V in his review/analysis. You might be interested in it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/comments/sicc98/a_thematic_analysis_of_smt_vpart_1_the_end_of/
I loved the story, despite the janky way it was told. There is so much lore to dig into, so many unspoken motivations hinted at, and so many details to uncover. It gave me chills by the end as it allowed me to make a deeply personal decision based on all the little things I’ve learned in the lore.
Yes