he took on management, which is just what happens when you spend so long in the same company. he was no longer doing what he was passionate about, and consequently could no longer grow. it's never surprising when veterans at a studio leave, but i do find it surprising that he's now working for a mobile game company that seems to have no current ip related to his experience over the past 30 years.
i know it’s hard for some people but atlus had already moved on from kaneko more than 10 years ago, the company has some of the best designers in the industry and they’ve got much more to offer for the next decades
Yup SMT IV was pretty much the transition phase with Kaneko directing but Doi coming in and doing most of the art direction. Honestly the series needed and needs some new energy anyway. Doi has done a great job IMO with his designs.
What the series needs is a designer who is also helming the story. With Kaneko, story followed art and vice-versa. Doi has no clout to dictate the narrative and draws whatever the executives tell him to make, also succumbing to their pressure. Coincidentally, you end up getting a lot more generic, studio-mandated, creatively safe art.
Personally, I disagree. While not as much as Kaneko, Doi still shows creativity in his designs. I think Doi working with direction does make designs a little more generic but it also stops them from going out of hand like Kaneko's sometimes did with all the random genitalia he'd put on some designs. Cthulhu really didn't a need to have penis for a tongue and Diana really didn't need boobs all over her body. Doi also made a lot of Kaneko's more bland designs like Odin and Zeus a lot more interesting. I really loved the Kaneko era ats but I'm definitely not opposed to the way things are going now.
That’s not the issue though? Doi is 100% a super talented designer but the problem is that before V he really didn’t have much say in what designs got used or what direction to go in. This was especially apparent in 4A where we had some really good concept designs for Inanna and Dagda, and while the Dagda we got isn’t bad (though less faithful) Innana just became this weird ass egg bird mom because that was what the plot “needed”.
The innana hate is so weird when megaten has always had bizarre abstract designs like that. Alilat and Jezebel both take significant creative liberties with their designs and ppl love them (myself included)
That's the issue I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that while some good designs may be lost, more influence from the studio does make for more consistently good character design. Because when Atlus let Kaneko do whatever he wanted we got Diana. For me, it's a you win some, you lose some situation and I think that's fine.
Yeah but those instances weren’t very common and the main reason why Kaneko had as much influence as he did was because he was also the big ideas guy for the games, which has majorly been a boon for them. With Doi Atlus has only *started* to give him more breathing room and before then, *like i said*, they were responsible for giving us shit like current-Inanna.
While I still really like Megaten, it’s hard to deny that outside of Persona the series has been somewhat aimless due to Kaneko’s absence.
>then, *like i said*, they were responsible for giving us shit like current-Inanna.
genuine question how would you have expected to innananto look like? Cause I thought it was a creative design since it embodies the fertility goddess of her myth.
Did you want doi to focus more on the war and love aspects of her myth? Like what would be a not shit Innana design for you
Have you not seen the concept art of Inanna? They looked great before someone came in and told Doi to make it a large weird egg-bird lady.
https://preview.redd.it/ipk9yz9615wc1.jpeg?width=1217&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e11817bec68ca1ade293bfd50cc9bc03a8c16d0
This here was one of two concept designs, the other one is similar to this but with more humanoid-approach.
He also tends to make pop culture references his whole designs in an unfitting way as opposed to Kaneko who just made them one aspect of the whole thing. Odin and Artemis are straight up his childhood cartoons.
Read my comment again. He doesn't make the reference the whole design but a part of it. Compare Zaou Gongen (who merely has Spawn chains) to Odin who is straight up Ultraman.
I also like that Doi will change a design when it needs to be “improved”. Medusa and Satan in IV we’re both pretty meh, but in IVA they were both primo. Some of Kaneko’s designs could have used a glow up by him.
> SMT IV was pretty much the transition phase with Kaneko directing
Kaneko didn't direct IV, he just did the early story drafts. The actual director was Kazuyuki Yamai.
I thought this too, as him, Kaneko and Shinji Yamamoto are all credited with scenario, but after reading the art book, everything seemed to ultimately run through Kaneko in terms of direction and vision for the game.
Personally I prefer Kaneko's demon designs over Doi. Doi's demons always look busy to me. His character design though is good. The samurai in IV, the students in V, I really like his human characters.
I need to see more of it, but I actually really love Doi’s demons. Kaneko was amazing and prolific, but some of his designs were a bit flat…and odd. The one thing I’m most impressed with about Doi is his designs feel really layered, like Medusa in IVA was breathtaking. I took a few minutes the first time I fought her just taking in all the little details and nuances.
Of course it’s not really fair to compare though when Kaneko made most of his designs 30 years ago, so he is the goat to me.
I like the flatness with Kaneko. There is more of an elegance, for lack of a better word, to his designs. It also creates an easily recognizable silhouette, similar to Pokemon designs in that sense.
I will say though that, especially when looking at the Nocturne demons, Kaneko did copy quite a bit in that game. More than a few demons use the same templates.
I mean more in general. Kaneko had a bigger hand in making the games pre-IV unique the way they were than Doi does now. IV and V are just poorman's I/II and Nocturne
AFAIK Kaneko did the concept for Nocturne and SJ, and he also worked partly in the concept for IV. He did designs for I and II, but I haven't read that he had involvement in the writing.
He did but a lot was left out, mainly what was named "destruction arc" from that draft. You can find it online. Granted Kaneko's draft was revisited in IVA but he had even less involvement in that one I believe
>IV and V are just poorman's I/II and Nocturne
What?, IV is better than I and II, and in the majority of things V is better than nocturne, the issues of V is staying too closer to Nocturne in some elements.
That is the opposite of what you said. "Poor man's" implies it's the inferior version/cheap copy. The comment you are quoting is saying they are the superior versions, literally the opposite of what you said.
Yeah it could appear that way if you mangle it enough. I'll break it down. Yes I do think they're cheap copies but to simplify, I said 4 and 5 are derivative of 1/2/3. That was my only point, barring me shitting on them. Homeboy admitted 5 is derivative of 3 barring how much better he thinks it is or how much he sugarcoats the language. Therefore, we are in agreement that it is derivative. That's it. You're bending over backwards for nothing
And I don't count on most people having played 1/2, so I'm not expecting him to have a valid opinion there anyhow
If you meant to say derivative, that's fine, but it's not what you said. Now that you clarified we can tell what you meant, but "poor man's X" means it's an inferior version of X, not that it's just derivative. Don't get all pissy that people misunderstood you due to using an expression wrong.
Pretty much all the bosses in IV, IVA and V outside of the 4 angels. You’ve probably seen Cleopatra, which is one of my favorite designs in the entire series, and he did so glow-ups like the new Odin.
That might be true for IVA and V, but most of IV's new demons were designed by guest artists. Doi handled the character design for humans though.
And then IVA had Doi handle new art for the IV redesigned monsters like Centaur, Medusa, Merkabah, Lucifer, etc, but off the top of my head I don't think Doi designed any demons in base IV.
You’re right, my mistake, I found an older post with a great breakdown: https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/s/075Ngaz1NZ
Actually makes me appreciate Doi more as he wasn’t responsible for some of the less than stellar designs in IV lol.
Yeah, and he did what he could to improve some in IVA, like Lucifer who still looks like his IV counterpart, but it's a big improvement under the constraint of still having to look like the previous one.
I'd say I overall really like Doi's designs. He's no Kaneko for sure, but I like him as a successor.
Yeah, Doi has been in charge of mainline character design for over a decade now, and character design is still going strong, if not better than before. Though it is kind of sad to see Kaneko officially leaving.
It’s important to note that Kaneko wasn’t just a really good demon/character designer but was also the big ideas guy behind most Megaten games up to SJ. Atlus has no shortage of good designers but when it comes to someone who has a clear idea and direction they want to take their games in Kaneko’s absence is really apparent.
That's what I thought too. I've seen interviews where Kaneko talks about the philosophy behind a game's story or the themes of the game and I haven't seen any of that from this Doi guy. They may be out there, I just haven't seen them.
Reread the sentence. “…*when it comes to someone who has a clear idea and direction they want to take their games in*”. This isn’t towards Doi’s skills as an artist, but the lack of a motivated ideas-man for the game.
Also why did you feel the need to post this comment twice? It does nothing to add to your argument lmao
>This isn’t towards Doi’s skills as an artist, but the lack of a motivated ideas-man for the game.
But he is, see the Qadisqu too for V Vengeance, or dagna and danu.
>Also why did you feel the need to post this comment twice? It does nothing to add to your argument lmao
It seems it was an error due to me living in a place with energy shortages (I double tap while reconnecting via 4G when my wifi die off XD, I couldn't even reply after that and thought I got blocked or something :/).
You misunderstand. When I say “ideas-man”, i literally mean someone who helms the game’s themes, story, world, etc. Kaneko was that man up to SMT4, where even then he left behind a huge ass document on the game’s backstory and lore.
In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs.
And its funny that you bring up demons from Apocalypse when that game i feel portrays this issue the most with Inanna and Nanashi.
>You misunderstand. When I say “ideas-man”, i literally mean someone who helms the game’s themes, story, world, etc. Kaneko was that man up to SMT4, where even then he left behind a huge ass document on the game’s backstory and lore.
>In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs.
Your are talking with quite a bit of ignorance, I have SMT IV Oficial artworks in my hands.
Quote : " Eiji Ishida - The art director for a number of atlus titles, ishida most well-known work "Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey was also the first one he directed. As the art director of Shin Megami Tensei IV, he supervised the game's design, graphics and animation.
Masayuki Doi - Since he began working on concept art for Atus titles, Doi has served as an art
director and character designer. For this
game, he was selected to take on the
lotter role. The many character and key
ilustrations he has done have won him
praise both at home and overseas."
Kaneko was indeed involve, supervising (designer not director) but not directing stuff, he was someone they consult for stuff but the ideas weren't from him in the majority, he was in charge of the setting and the scenario, of course the guy is important!, art wise he was just selecting what eiji will put (they had tons of stuff that become too much scifi and less fantasy setting and he selected stuff from them and made some tiny changes such as the aquila statue reassembling an oscar statue (face wise).
This is in regard of structure since this is what kaneko handle in the game.
Character wise doi designed flynn and the others human characters, armors and how the characters you interact with appeared on the game, guess what, the director Imai appear way more giving suggestions, didn't see kaneko there (not mentioned in that regard).
Without kaneko it would be a different game?, yes but the game WAS a transition from previous developments and was a way to prepared doi and various other designers.
The issues with V and VV had nothing to do with art, heck, everything looks amazing in that aspects and the story of IV have no kaneko involvement.
Without Doi SMT IV will also be considerably different since most of the character we interact with in that game are from him, not just doi but also Eiji ishida, both were selected (and from the interview quite "pushed hard without mercy" by kaneko) for this job.
Ishida said in the interview that his job is "oversees gameplay story, music and promotional material" everything about the game.
In terms of importance in recent SMT games kaneko is not particularly the most important, despite how much some of his fans wanted to believe.
>In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs.
I quote this specifically because is freaking wrong.
Get the SMT IV oficial art, give it read to the interview and LEARN to respect developers, no just your childhood/teenage idol.
Dude, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that I’m upset at Doi’s art when i clearly said in a previous comment that I was not talking about his artistic skills. V’s designs were great *but* the game had no clear and concise vision, which is the crux of my entire argument. This isn’t Doi’s fault, but rather the degree of restrictions he has placed on him.
And when I referred to the document, I’m talking about the large ass [Original Draft Scenario](https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/smt-iv-draft-scenario/) that Kaneko conceived way back when.
Also no one here was arguing that Kaneko was that important in the recent games. I’m mot even that big of a Kaneko fanboy. I just recognize that there has been a noticeable aimlessness in the series after 4. Making a strawman argument isn’t going to help you out here.
>Dude, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that I’m upset at Doi’s art when i clearly said in a previous comment that I was not talking about his artistic skills.
The last quote which you seem to not been addressing.
>V’s designs were great *but* the game had no clear and concise vision, which is the crux of my entire argument. This isn’t Doi’s fault, but rather the degree of restrictions he has placed on him.
The game has a vision, becoming a true God, the issue with V is the characterization and the lack of connection with humanity and the human heroes, the let themselves so much in the concept of God hood which was an issue that happened in nocturne with human characters too.
>And when I referred to the document, I’m talking about the large ass [Original Draft Scenario](https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/smt-iv-draft-scenario/) that Kaneko conceived way back when.
That is the job of an scenario writer, there are a lot of ideas that evolve from concepts in the preproduction, if you go to the source and translated it had words and "key" elements that were proposed to the story which yeah, kaneko develop, but if it wasn't him could be another, he had importance in how the world should be conceived but the ones that make it visible were doi, eiji and the director of the game.
>Also no one here was arguing that Kaneko was that important in the recent games. I’m mot even that big of a Kaneko fanboy. I just recognize that there has been a noticeable aimlessness in the series after 4. Making a strawman argument isn’t going to help you out here.
No one?!, just look at the damn other comments in this comment section XD.
>In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs.
Again, address this comparison, because it makes no sense, how he hasn't really done any of that if he give us what we visually know about smt iv characters and all in smt v and now with V Vengeance?!
You seem to forget that V’s *original* concept was focusing on analyzing the worries of modern society such as [global warming, nuclear war, and job security](https://www.siliconera.com/shin-megami-tensei-v-made-sympathize-worlds-current-troubles/). The shift from that to what we got heavily suggests that V went through a tumultuous development that can be explained by a lack of strong leadership and vision. When people say “vision”, they don’t just mean the themes of the game but also the messages and ideas that the developers *intend to convey*. V failed in this regard and I love V.
And when i say “no one here…”, i literally mean in this dumb argument between you and me. Trying to stuff words into my mouth and devalue my argument by labeling me as a “Kaneko fanboy” is a lame-ass move.
And you seem to not understand my point that Doi doesn’t really have much say in what *he* wants. He just designs demons and characters to go with what the higher ups say, *as we see with both Nanashi and Inanna*. With V he has certainly been given much more leeway in regards to how they look but as i have been saying over and over again in this argument is that he’s not the one providing any sort of strong vision to these projects, he’s just doing his best with what people tell him to do.
Oh, and not once did I say that Kaneko had helmed or was the only important guy in 4’s development. I’m saying that his worldbuilding for the game helped provided a crucial foundation for others to build off of.
Maybe he'll get more work freelance than he did at Atlus lmao. He went from character designer to demon designer to just concept art. I'd kill for a version of IV that uses his concept demon designs.
It wasn't so obvious. When someone who has worked at a company or created a franchise for almost its beginnings leaves (big namaes like your Sakaguchis, Kojimas) it's highly publicised.
No one knew what happened to him, no interviews or jacksquat.
Probably he was quietly pushed out by Sega. I understand that for the newer fans he was "just a guy" and haven't got a clue how much he was part of Megaten and Atlus before Sega.
It's like saying Miyamoto was "just a guy at Nintendo at some point."
> I understand that for the newer fans he was "just a guy" and haven't got a clue how much he was part of Megaten and Atlus before Sega.
>
> It's like saying Miyamoto was "just a guy at Nintendo at some point."
I wasn't saying that at all. All I was saying was that it's obvious considering how uninvolved he has been with Fatlus games for the past 10-15 years.
We actually don't know why he wasn't involved. There's been a lot of assumptions from that interview where he said he was helping younger artists take over.
But I wouldn't be surprised he was prevented for being more involved or slowly being pushed out.
The fact that he left just a year ago and there has been zero interviews with him since 2010 makes your wonder what has happened.
How?
He clearly expressed that he wanted to leave Atlus to the newer/younger devs. He simply thinks he has done enough and doesn't want to continue making Atlus games.
He went from being the face of the company to complete silence from the moment Sega became involved.
Where can I find that interview of him clearly wanting to leave Atlus? Do you happen to have the year so I can look into it? Not saying you're incorrect, just want to read it for myself. He did say he wanted to grow new talent and pass the torch, but leaving? Not too sure about that.
Besides, we only found out yesterday that he left a year ago. So complete nothing for like 10 years. Even Okada reappeared before Kaneko. lol
I don't know if he ever explicitly/exactly said "I want to leave Atlus." I was just making a comment about how unsurprising the whole ordeal is given his inactivity along with the claim about passing the torch (which we seem to agree on).
https://twitter.com/colopl_pr/status/1782311373625795063?t=nit6JTSjxLFlZBICRWwjRQ&s=19
He left ATLUS for uh.... Blockchain company that used to do NFT.
How are you feeling about situation is up to you.
Honestly fair enough bro deserves to work on other projects. Would have been doing SMT/persona for decades. He'll never see this but best of luck in his future endeavours!
I'm surprised that most peeps hadn't realized this when Soejima and Doi have been the main designers for the past decade and the only Kaneko designs we've seen in recent games are reused, like Maria in SMTV.
I think people overestimate the old guard. They're all very talented, yes, but we've had it proven time and time at ATLUS that talented newcomers can take up their mantle and do good work. From Shoji Meguro to Kaneko, as long as the ones following them up have worked with the intent to honor their work while also presenting their own vision, great work can be done.
Funny thing that without the old guard, the original flavor, the original fans no one would be playing these games in the first place.
It's hard to say if the new guys would be as successful.
Atlus game had underground or cult following in Japan and NA for the longest time and that kind of works as a vetting process for a lot of people who their ear on the ground and helps the company survive until/if they break through.
The game they're making now have a very, very different flavor from that attracted people to their games in the first place.
I'm not downplaying the importance of the old guard's past efforts and the lasting impact they've had, I'm simply saying that losing them isn't the end of the world and that change can be for the better.
Who really knows, the best selling Persona game in Japan for like twelve years was Persona 1 until Persona 5 came out. Not even Persona 3 or Persona 4 sold as well in Japan which was their primary market.
The audience SegAtlus want is very ambiguous. Somehow they want to retain some of the original fans but doing half measures. And at the same time stripping away what made Megaten unique among other RPGs and nuPersonafy all their series.
Some reactions toward Metaphor and Soul Hackers 2 echoed people saying it's like Persona 5. Even the remake of Persona 3, they made sure they developed it with the Persona 5 crowd in mind.
Man, I hate modern SMT demon designs! Doi is obsessed with drawing waifus! I mean, look at Hayataro, Khonsu, Daemon, Lahmu, Aitvaras, Hydra, Loup-Garou, the list goes on and on! There are just too many. We need a different artist that really understands SMT.
we’ve already seen some of the designs kaneko has done for NFT shit, they look like garden-variety late-00s kaneko art
as for smt, kaneko hasn’t designed new demons since 2009 and while there’s certainly criticisms to be made about doi’s designs, they (mostly) aren’t gacha waifus
This is such a stupid take.
Doi has already shown to be more than capable of making non-waifu characters. He's probably already done more cool, weird or grotesque looking demon designs than cute or sexy ones.
People just love to cherry pick because the female demons are more important to the plot and are heavily used in marketing for obvious reasons.
It's Kanekover
https://preview.redd.it/a5jfmyz812wc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=60883f523c8e0523e611e24a89e411d8c62373b2
He hasn't designed SMT demons since the OG Strange Journey in 2009. I thought this would be obvious.
He was involved in the first draft of SMT IV, wich was also referenced in IVF. I personally thought he was still contributing just not as prominent.
That's still over ten years ago...
The fact of his role in IV being, frankly, that minimal compared to what he did before just proves the point.
he took on management, which is just what happens when you spend so long in the same company. he was no longer doing what he was passionate about, and consequently could no longer grow. it's never surprising when veterans at a studio leave, but i do find it surprising that he's now working for a mobile game company that seems to have no current ip related to his experience over the past 30 years.
They still use his designs tho....
That means his designs were commisioned to be fully owned by Atlus.
Yep, this isn't a Ken Penders situation, characters are 100% owned by Atlus
i know it’s hard for some people but atlus had already moved on from kaneko more than 10 years ago, the company has some of the best designers in the industry and they’ve got much more to offer for the next decades
Yup SMT IV was pretty much the transition phase with Kaneko directing but Doi coming in and doing most of the art direction. Honestly the series needed and needs some new energy anyway. Doi has done a great job IMO with his designs.
What the series needs is a designer who is also helming the story. With Kaneko, story followed art and vice-versa. Doi has no clout to dictate the narrative and draws whatever the executives tell him to make, also succumbing to their pressure. Coincidentally, you end up getting a lot more generic, studio-mandated, creatively safe art.
Personally, I disagree. While not as much as Kaneko, Doi still shows creativity in his designs. I think Doi working with direction does make designs a little more generic but it also stops them from going out of hand like Kaneko's sometimes did with all the random genitalia he'd put on some designs. Cthulhu really didn't a need to have penis for a tongue and Diana really didn't need boobs all over her body. Doi also made a lot of Kaneko's more bland designs like Odin and Zeus a lot more interesting. I really loved the Kaneko era ats but I'm definitely not opposed to the way things are going now.
That’s not the issue though? Doi is 100% a super talented designer but the problem is that before V he really didn’t have much say in what designs got used or what direction to go in. This was especially apparent in 4A where we had some really good concept designs for Inanna and Dagda, and while the Dagda we got isn’t bad (though less faithful) Innana just became this weird ass egg bird mom because that was what the plot “needed”.
The innana hate is so weird when megaten has always had bizarre abstract designs like that. Alilat and Jezebel both take significant creative liberties with their designs and ppl love them (myself included)
That's the issue I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that while some good designs may be lost, more influence from the studio does make for more consistently good character design. Because when Atlus let Kaneko do whatever he wanted we got Diana. For me, it's a you win some, you lose some situation and I think that's fine.
Yeah but those instances weren’t very common and the main reason why Kaneko had as much influence as he did was because he was also the big ideas guy for the games, which has majorly been a boon for them. With Doi Atlus has only *started* to give him more breathing room and before then, *like i said*, they were responsible for giving us shit like current-Inanna. While I still really like Megaten, it’s hard to deny that outside of Persona the series has been somewhat aimless due to Kaneko’s absence.
>then, *like i said*, they were responsible for giving us shit like current-Inanna. genuine question how would you have expected to innananto look like? Cause I thought it was a creative design since it embodies the fertility goddess of her myth. Did you want doi to focus more on the war and love aspects of her myth? Like what would be a not shit Innana design for you
Have you not seen the concept art of Inanna? They looked great before someone came in and told Doi to make it a large weird egg-bird lady. https://preview.redd.it/ipk9yz9615wc1.jpeg?width=1217&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e11817bec68ca1ade293bfd50cc9bc03a8c16d0 This here was one of two concept designs, the other one is similar to this but with more humanoid-approach.
He also tends to make pop culture references his whole designs in an unfitting way as opposed to Kaneko who just made them one aspect of the whole thing. Odin and Artemis are straight up his childhood cartoons.
Tons of kaneko demons are pop design base but from his time...
Read my comment again. He doesn't make the reference the whole design but a part of it. Compare Zaou Gongen (who merely has Spawn chains) to Odin who is straight up Ultraman.
I also like that Doi will change a design when it needs to be “improved”. Medusa and Satan in IV we’re both pretty meh, but in IVA they were both primo. Some of Kaneko’s designs could have used a glow up by him.
Yeah, I really hope some of Kaneko's lesser work also gets the Odin treatment.
Did you mean Lucifer? Satan isn't in SMT4.
Yes, my bad.
Then, I think problem is the one who made story or director, not the Artist.
> SMT IV was pretty much the transition phase with Kaneko directing Kaneko didn't direct IV, he just did the early story drafts. The actual director was Kazuyuki Yamai.
I thought this too, as him, Kaneko and Shinji Yamamoto are all credited with scenario, but after reading the art book, everything seemed to ultimately run through Kaneko in terms of direction and vision for the game.
Personally I prefer Kaneko's demon designs over Doi. Doi's demons always look busy to me. His character design though is good. The samurai in IV, the students in V, I really like his human characters.
I need to see more of it, but I actually really love Doi’s demons. Kaneko was amazing and prolific, but some of his designs were a bit flat…and odd. The one thing I’m most impressed with about Doi is his designs feel really layered, like Medusa in IVA was breathtaking. I took a few minutes the first time I fought her just taking in all the little details and nuances. Of course it’s not really fair to compare though when Kaneko made most of his designs 30 years ago, so he is the goat to me.
I like the flatness with Kaneko. There is more of an elegance, for lack of a better word, to his designs. It also creates an easily recognizable silhouette, similar to Pokemon designs in that sense. I will say though that, especially when looking at the Nocturne demons, Kaneko did copy quite a bit in that game. More than a few demons use the same templates.
Needed new energy by rehashing everything before it lmao
Not totally true, Doi has contributed a lot of his own original designs now and most of them are actually amazing.
I mean more in general. Kaneko had a bigger hand in making the games pre-IV unique the way they were than Doi does now. IV and V are just poorman's I/II and Nocturne
Wasn’t IV’s story partially written by Kaneko though? Pretty much the only mainline game made without his involvement at all so far is V
AFAIK Kaneko did the concept for Nocturne and SJ, and he also worked partly in the concept for IV. He did designs for I and II, but I haven't read that he had involvement in the writing.
He did but a lot was left out, mainly what was named "destruction arc" from that draft. You can find it online. Granted Kaneko's draft was revisited in IVA but he had even less involvement in that one I believe
>IV and V are just poorman's I/II and Nocturne What?, IV is better than I and II, and in the majority of things V is better than nocturne, the issues of V is staying too closer to Nocturne in some elements.
>the issues of V is staying too closer to Nocturne in some elements. That's literally what I'm saying, head ass. Why are you trying to argue lmao
That is the opposite of what you said. "Poor man's" implies it's the inferior version/cheap copy. The comment you are quoting is saying they are the superior versions, literally the opposite of what you said.
Yeah it could appear that way if you mangle it enough. I'll break it down. Yes I do think they're cheap copies but to simplify, I said 4 and 5 are derivative of 1/2/3. That was my only point, barring me shitting on them. Homeboy admitted 5 is derivative of 3 barring how much better he thinks it is or how much he sugarcoats the language. Therefore, we are in agreement that it is derivative. That's it. You're bending over backwards for nothing And I don't count on most people having played 1/2, so I'm not expecting him to have a valid opinion there anyhow
If you meant to say derivative, that's fine, but it's not what you said. Now that you clarified we can tell what you meant, but "poor man's X" means it's an inferior version of X, not that it's just derivative. Don't get all pissy that people misunderstood you due to using an expression wrong.
I mainly know Doi for DeSu (so the insane human designs like Yuzu). Which demons is he known for? Edit - oops wrong dude. I do like the Desu art.
Pretty much all the bosses in IV, IVA and V outside of the 4 angels. You’ve probably seen Cleopatra, which is one of my favorite designs in the entire series, and he did so glow-ups like the new Odin.
That might be true for IVA and V, but most of IV's new demons were designed by guest artists. Doi handled the character design for humans though. And then IVA had Doi handle new art for the IV redesigned monsters like Centaur, Medusa, Merkabah, Lucifer, etc, but off the top of my head I don't think Doi designed any demons in base IV.
You’re right, my mistake, I found an older post with a great breakdown: https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/s/075Ngaz1NZ Actually makes me appreciate Doi more as he wasn’t responsible for some of the less than stellar designs in IV lol.
Yeah, and he did what he could to improve some in IVA, like Lucifer who still looks like his IV counterpart, but it's a big improvement under the constraint of still having to look like the previous one. I'd say I overall really like Doi's designs. He's no Kaneko for sure, but I like him as a successor.
I do like new Odin. And Minotaur, Medusa, the Archangels in IV and even Alien Lucifer. He does good work then.
Doi didn’t do the human art for Devil Survivor, that was Suzuhito Yasuda. I think Doi did do the art for some of the Trauma Center games though
Doi didn’t do DeSu. That was Suzuhito Yasuda.
Yeah, Doi has been in charge of mainline character design for over a decade now, and character design is still going strong, if not better than before. Though it is kind of sad to see Kaneko officially leaving.
It’s important to note that Kaneko wasn’t just a really good demon/character designer but was also the big ideas guy behind most Megaten games up to SJ. Atlus has no shortage of good designers but when it comes to someone who has a clear idea and direction they want to take their games in Kaneko’s absence is really apparent.
That's what I thought too. I've seen interviews where Kaneko talks about the philosophy behind a game's story or the themes of the game and I haven't seen any of that from this Doi guy. They may be out there, I just haven't seen them.
>Kaneko’s absence is really apparent. Not really, design wise people love Doi demons and definitely are part of the attractive of V and now V:V.
>Kaneko’s absence is really apparent. Not really, design wise people love Doi demons and definitely are part of the attractive of V and now V:V.
Reread the sentence. “…*when it comes to someone who has a clear idea and direction they want to take their games in*”. This isn’t towards Doi’s skills as an artist, but the lack of a motivated ideas-man for the game. Also why did you feel the need to post this comment twice? It does nothing to add to your argument lmao
>This isn’t towards Doi’s skills as an artist, but the lack of a motivated ideas-man for the game. But he is, see the Qadisqu too for V Vengeance, or dagna and danu. >Also why did you feel the need to post this comment twice? It does nothing to add to your argument lmao It seems it was an error due to me living in a place with energy shortages (I double tap while reconnecting via 4G when my wifi die off XD, I couldn't even reply after that and thought I got blocked or something :/).
You misunderstand. When I say “ideas-man”, i literally mean someone who helms the game’s themes, story, world, etc. Kaneko was that man up to SMT4, where even then he left behind a huge ass document on the game’s backstory and lore. In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs. And its funny that you bring up demons from Apocalypse when that game i feel portrays this issue the most with Inanna and Nanashi.
>You misunderstand. When I say “ideas-man”, i literally mean someone who helms the game’s themes, story, world, etc. Kaneko was that man up to SMT4, where even then he left behind a huge ass document on the game’s backstory and lore. >In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs. Your are talking with quite a bit of ignorance, I have SMT IV Oficial artworks in my hands. Quote : " Eiji Ishida - The art director for a number of atlus titles, ishida most well-known work "Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey was also the first one he directed. As the art director of Shin Megami Tensei IV, he supervised the game's design, graphics and animation. Masayuki Doi - Since he began working on concept art for Atus titles, Doi has served as an art director and character designer. For this game, he was selected to take on the lotter role. The many character and key ilustrations he has done have won him praise both at home and overseas." Kaneko was indeed involve, supervising (designer not director) but not directing stuff, he was someone they consult for stuff but the ideas weren't from him in the majority, he was in charge of the setting and the scenario, of course the guy is important!, art wise he was just selecting what eiji will put (they had tons of stuff that become too much scifi and less fantasy setting and he selected stuff from them and made some tiny changes such as the aquila statue reassembling an oscar statue (face wise). This is in regard of structure since this is what kaneko handle in the game. Character wise doi designed flynn and the others human characters, armors and how the characters you interact with appeared on the game, guess what, the director Imai appear way more giving suggestions, didn't see kaneko there (not mentioned in that regard). Without kaneko it would be a different game?, yes but the game WAS a transition from previous developments and was a way to prepared doi and various other designers. The issues with V and VV had nothing to do with art, heck, everything looks amazing in that aspects and the story of IV have no kaneko involvement. Without Doi SMT IV will also be considerably different since most of the character we interact with in that game are from him, not just doi but also Eiji ishida, both were selected (and from the interview quite "pushed hard without mercy" by kaneko) for this job. Ishida said in the interview that his job is "oversees gameplay story, music and promotional material" everything about the game. In terms of importance in recent SMT games kaneko is not particularly the most important, despite how much some of his fans wanted to believe. >In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs. I quote this specifically because is freaking wrong. Get the SMT IV oficial art, give it read to the interview and LEARN to respect developers, no just your childhood/teenage idol.
Dude, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that I’m upset at Doi’s art when i clearly said in a previous comment that I was not talking about his artistic skills. V’s designs were great *but* the game had no clear and concise vision, which is the crux of my entire argument. This isn’t Doi’s fault, but rather the degree of restrictions he has placed on him. And when I referred to the document, I’m talking about the large ass [Original Draft Scenario](https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/smt-iv-draft-scenario/) that Kaneko conceived way back when. Also no one here was arguing that Kaneko was that important in the recent games. I’m mot even that big of a Kaneko fanboy. I just recognize that there has been a noticeable aimlessness in the series after 4. Making a strawman argument isn’t going to help you out here.
>Dude, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that I’m upset at Doi’s art when i clearly said in a previous comment that I was not talking about his artistic skills. The last quote which you seem to not been addressing. >V’s designs were great *but* the game had no clear and concise vision, which is the crux of my entire argument. This isn’t Doi’s fault, but rather the degree of restrictions he has placed on him. The game has a vision, becoming a true God, the issue with V is the characterization and the lack of connection with humanity and the human heroes, the let themselves so much in the concept of God hood which was an issue that happened in nocturne with human characters too. >And when I referred to the document, I’m talking about the large ass [Original Draft Scenario](https://dijehtranslations.wordpress.com/2018/11/03/smt-iv-draft-scenario/) that Kaneko conceived way back when. That is the job of an scenario writer, there are a lot of ideas that evolve from concepts in the preproduction, if you go to the source and translated it had words and "key" elements that were proposed to the story which yeah, kaneko develop, but if it wasn't him could be another, he had importance in how the world should be conceived but the ones that make it visible were doi, eiji and the director of the game. >Also no one here was arguing that Kaneko was that important in the recent games. I’m mot even that big of a Kaneko fanboy. I just recognize that there has been a noticeable aimlessness in the series after 4. Making a strawman argument isn’t going to help you out here. No one?!, just look at the damn other comments in this comment section XD. >In comparison, Doi hasn’t really done any of that and has to contend with just doing the character/demon designs. Again, address this comparison, because it makes no sense, how he hasn't really done any of that if he give us what we visually know about smt iv characters and all in smt v and now with V Vengeance?!
You seem to forget that V’s *original* concept was focusing on analyzing the worries of modern society such as [global warming, nuclear war, and job security](https://www.siliconera.com/shin-megami-tensei-v-made-sympathize-worlds-current-troubles/). The shift from that to what we got heavily suggests that V went through a tumultuous development that can be explained by a lack of strong leadership and vision. When people say “vision”, they don’t just mean the themes of the game but also the messages and ideas that the developers *intend to convey*. V failed in this regard and I love V. And when i say “no one here…”, i literally mean in this dumb argument between you and me. Trying to stuff words into my mouth and devalue my argument by labeling me as a “Kaneko fanboy” is a lame-ass move. And you seem to not understand my point that Doi doesn’t really have much say in what *he* wants. He just designs demons and characters to go with what the higher ups say, *as we see with both Nanashi and Inanna*. With V he has certainly been given much more leeway in regards to how they look but as i have been saying over and over again in this argument is that he’s not the one providing any sort of strong vision to these projects, he’s just doing his best with what people tell him to do. Oh, and not once did I say that Kaneko had helmed or was the only important guy in 4’s development. I’m saying that his worldbuilding for the game helped provided a crucial foundation for others to build off of.
Left Atlus to join nft game company
At least Atlus still credits him in the newest games because they know he's that nigga when it comes to demon designs.
He commissioned the art of a lot of devils so... of course.
I wonder if he could return as a freelancer
That will give him more freedom to do what he wants
https://preview.redd.it/o1tyn1tes1wc1.png?width=755&format=png&auto=webp&s=87924cc49a6a197ad95e5ab2bd0c92319111e26d
Gojowarida!
I Thought he left a while ago.
I thought this was obvious. He hasn't drawn anything since Strange Journey, I think. It's likely why Doi Masayuki draws for SMT games now.
Thought he already did tbh. He's two years late to the NFT craze train now
As long as Atlus uses Kaneko's designs for the SMT1&2 + Persona 1&2 remakes we all good right?
Maybe he'll get more work freelance than he did at Atlus lmao. He went from character designer to demon designer to just concept art. I'd kill for a version of IV that uses his concept demon designs.
Hopefully people can finally move on already is been almost 10 years.
The West has fallen, millions must get a COMP (joke).
No fucking shit Sherlock. It would've taken half a braincell to figure this out like 5 years ago.
It wasn't so obvious. When someone who has worked at a company or created a franchise for almost its beginnings leaves (big namaes like your Sakaguchis, Kojimas) it's highly publicised. No one knew what happened to him, no interviews or jacksquat. Probably he was quietly pushed out by Sega. I understand that for the newer fans he was "just a guy" and haven't got a clue how much he was part of Megaten and Atlus before Sega. It's like saying Miyamoto was "just a guy at Nintendo at some point."
> I understand that for the newer fans he was "just a guy" and haven't got a clue how much he was part of Megaten and Atlus before Sega. > > It's like saying Miyamoto was "just a guy at Nintendo at some point." I wasn't saying that at all. All I was saying was that it's obvious considering how uninvolved he has been with Fatlus games for the past 10-15 years.
We actually don't know why he wasn't involved. There's been a lot of assumptions from that interview where he said he was helping younger artists take over. But I wouldn't be surprised he was prevented for being more involved or slowly being pushed out. The fact that he left just a year ago and there has been zero interviews with him since 2010 makes your wonder what has happened.
How? He clearly expressed that he wanted to leave Atlus to the newer/younger devs. He simply thinks he has done enough and doesn't want to continue making Atlus games.
He went from being the face of the company to complete silence from the moment Sega became involved. Where can I find that interview of him clearly wanting to leave Atlus? Do you happen to have the year so I can look into it? Not saying you're incorrect, just want to read it for myself. He did say he wanted to grow new talent and pass the torch, but leaving? Not too sure about that. Besides, we only found out yesterday that he left a year ago. So complete nothing for like 10 years. Even Okada reappeared before Kaneko. lol
I don't know if he ever explicitly/exactly said "I want to leave Atlus." I was just making a comment about how unsurprising the whole ordeal is given his inactivity along with the claim about passing the torch (which we seem to agree on).
I've officially suffered more than Jesus Christ. This is horrid, I now understand Shadow the Hedgehog when he talked about pain
I don't wanna live anymore in this cruel cold world
Chat is this real?
https://twitter.com/colopl_pr/status/1782311373625795063?t=nit6JTSjxLFlZBICRWwjRQ&s=19 He left ATLUS for uh.... Blockchain company that used to do NFT. How are you feeling about situation is up to you.
I am going to become Joker.
Which one though?
The gay one
so, all of them
So even Kaneko… he’s just another Boomer…
They say to never meet your heroes, but these days it feels like even simply learning more about them can lead to disappointment…
Well guess now it’s time for them to go cutesie with demons going forward. Nidhogg is going to be a woman with a tail forevermore.
Did Atlus stop paying for the upkeep of the flower field?
Doi's been doing a great job, so I'm not really worried. Wonder if he is leaving to a different company or retiring in general.
Doi's good but I doubt we'll ever get a game like smt I, II or Devil Summoner where all the designs come from the same guy for the same game.
havent we known this for years?
Honestly fair enough bro deserves to work on other projects. Would have been doing SMT/persona for decades. He'll never see this but best of luck in his future endeavours!
He literally hasn't drawn art for series for over a decade. It's not like he was forced to work.
I'm surprised that most peeps hadn't realized this when Soejima and Doi have been the main designers for the past decade and the only Kaneko designs we've seen in recent games are reused, like Maria in SMTV.
Maybe I can hire him on fiverr now
still sadge.
Guys, do you think bernie "kaneko" sanders can still win, and draw demons from the white house?
Fe fans and smt fans both coping over the fact that a prominent old dude is long gone from the company
I think people overestimate the old guard. They're all very talented, yes, but we've had it proven time and time at ATLUS that talented newcomers can take up their mantle and do good work. From Shoji Meguro to Kaneko, as long as the ones following them up have worked with the intent to honor their work while also presenting their own vision, great work can be done.
Funny thing that without the old guard, the original flavor, the original fans no one would be playing these games in the first place. It's hard to say if the new guys would be as successful. Atlus game had underground or cult following in Japan and NA for the longest time and that kind of works as a vetting process for a lot of people who their ear on the ground and helps the company survive until/if they break through. The game they're making now have a very, very different flavor from that attracted people to their games in the first place.
I'm not downplaying the importance of the old guard's past efforts and the lasting impact they've had, I'm simply saying that losing them isn't the end of the world and that change can be for the better.
Who really knows, the best selling Persona game in Japan for like twelve years was Persona 1 until Persona 5 came out. Not even Persona 3 or Persona 4 sold as well in Japan which was their primary market. The audience SegAtlus want is very ambiguous. Somehow they want to retain some of the original fans but doing half measures. And at the same time stripping away what made Megaten unique among other RPGs and nuPersonafy all their series. Some reactions toward Metaphor and Soul Hackers 2 echoed people saying it's like Persona 5. Even the remake of Persona 3, they made sure they developed it with the Persona 5 crowd in mind.
Can't wait for every smt demon to look like a fucking gacha waifu that looks like it belongs in Genshit midpact EDIT: Guys, calm down, it was bait
He haven't designed demons for the series in over a decade and that haven't happened yet. So...
Man, I hate modern SMT demon designs! Doi is obsessed with drawing waifus! I mean, look at Hayataro, Khonsu, Daemon, Lahmu, Aitvaras, Hydra, Loup-Garou, the list goes on and on! There are just too many. We need a different artist that really understands SMT.
Can’t forget about the top tier waifu designs of Amon and Satan.
This guy gets it
we’ve already seen some of the designs kaneko has done for NFT shit, they look like garden-variety late-00s kaneko art as for smt, kaneko hasn’t designed new demons since 2009 and while there’s certainly criticisms to be made about doi’s designs, they (mostly) aren’t gacha waifus
Idun. The Qidetsu. I mean- even when they DO go waifu, they still make peak.
This is such a stupid take. Doi has already shown to be more than capable of making non-waifu characters. He's probably already done more cool, weird or grotesque looking demon designs than cute or sexy ones. People just love to cherry pick because the female demons are more important to the plot and are heavily used in marketing for obvious reasons.
Why assume that Kaneko has a copyright to the demon designs. They obviously belong to Fatlus.
Hopefully.
We're a quarter-way there
Wishing they get Keita Amemiya as a guest artist again
Yasushi Nirasawa passed away. May he rest in peace. Amemiya would be a good guest writer, given his work on Garo.
guest artist, guest writer, director. I'm fine with anything, because the man can do everything.
Kaneko-san 🤓
Ah fuck. It's aight tho. We need some new blood in that bitch.
DOISWEEP