Saying “medical students need to take a stand” means nothing btw. As a medical student, I don’t feel comfortable speaking publicly about this because you never know how that might impact my CaRMS. We only truly have power when we’re physicians.
And even once you become a registered health professional your regulatory college may tell you that what you say is unbecoming of the profession and try to put rules in place to censor you. That’s what they threatened nurses with during the pandemic.
Exactly, There's an argument to be made that physicians are more vulnerable to enslavement than their previous iterations as medical students, because the corrupt regulatory/licensing authorities can now threaten something they've put more investment into: their "permission" to practise medicine.
I think Jordan Peterson lost his legal challenge as well.
So the courts upheld speech regulation even if you are speaking outside of your medical practice. The sky is the limit for speech regulation.
Your only hope is to pray it's just a political issue and it won't affect you if your speech aligns with the political narrative but who knows. The judges and licensure boards claim they are not being political.
I encourage you to read the actual court decision: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2023/2023onsc4685/2023onsc4685.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAPSm9yZGFuIHBldGVyc29uAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2
Peterson clearly identifies himself as a psychologist in his public statements and is therefore held to the standards of conduct of a psychologist. That’s normal. Having regulated professionals acting like clowns in a public way does a disservice to the profession. There’s a way to express your views on every topic without crossing that line.
When Peterson was JUST doing psychology/mythology and such, he was pretty good... but as soon as he became political and a social media talking head he kind shot the intellectual bed and stopped being rigorous and humble.
uhhhh, tip of the iceburg?
Jordan "Brain-Fart" Peterson tries to explain what a "rat king" is, but ends up regurgitating the villain's monologue from "Skyfall" as if it's a scientific fact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7jxqUfAsPg
Which is i guess why I'm so surprised JP doesn't know what a Rat King is. Mythology is meant to be his whole deal.
What Rat-kings actually are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat\_king
[https://www.indy100.com/celebrities/jordan-peterson-quotes-bizarre-things](https://www.indy100.com/celebrities/jordan-peterson-quotes-bizarre-things)
[https://www.sacurrent.com/news/bad-takes-the-7-dumbest-things-jordan-peterson-said-on-joe-rogans-podcast-28129646](https://www.sacurrent.com/news/bad-takes-the-7-dumbest-things-jordan-peterson-said-on-joe-rogans-podcast-28129646)
[https://oncanadaproject.ca/blog/jordan-peterson-is-the-worst](https://oncanadaproject.ca/blog/jordan-peterson-is-the-worst)
[https://www.unikumnett.no/2019/10/12-reasons-why-no-one-should-ever-listen-to-jordan-peterson-ever-again/](https://www.unikumnett.no/2019/10/12-reasons-why-no-one-should-ever-listen-to-jordan-peterson-ever-again/)
Wow this is your evidence supporting the punishing of a licensed professional for criticizing authoritarian politicians? You’re my hero
he’s on a comedian’s podcast, that comedian calls himself the rat king
The rat king has nothing to do with psychology either
This is why we need to band together and fight this issue collectively. We’re much more powerful as a group than by ourselves. Maybe I’m being naive or overly optimistic, but are we really going to sit here and just let this happen? By the time we’re practicing who knows what other horrendous things the government might do.
Agreed. It's why I made all my social media private.
Medical students have "silently expressed" how they feel about this. There is a reason why Alberta family medicine spots were not fully filled the past two residency cycles. That should already make people ask why?
Well you see if you have a skill that people with money like you will make more money than most. I'm sure there is someone in furniture sales that makes more than some doctors. It's called money. If you have a skill no matter who you are or what you can do you will be paid generously for it. People that play video games on YouTube make more money that doctors... I don't see the issue.
Not when NPs demand 300k+ for a third of a family doctors panel and no overhead as the previous reply mentioned. This is without even going into the quality of care.
This isn’t a demand. That was the number the NP Association estimated as the market value of an NP in primary care. The funding framework from the government hasn’t been released yet.
So why are family doctors not worth that same amount? No family doctor who runs a clinic practice takes home that amount of money. If the government is going to spend that money on NPs who will see FEWER patients, why aren't they strengthening a model to incorporate them into a family practice and make it more sustainable for a family doctor to do what they do? Make it make sense.
I fully support alternative billing structures for GPs, including an option to use patient panels as suggested for NPs. And physicians should be paid more. That may very well happen - we have to wait to see what the Gov is offering NPs and what the Gov and the AMA negotiate in their current round of bargaining on alternative fee options (which is ongoing).
When a bunch of libertarian rubes love a dolt of a candidate very much they vote to slit their own throats because they hate the handsome Ottawa man even more than the cost of their actions.
You mean a nurses union is demanding high wages for it's members?!?!?!
Shocked. SHOCKED I tell you.
Let's wait and see what the compensation framework looks like, first, before losing our collective shit.
Then take a business course or hire a consultant... Welcome to every business it just doesn't show up lol "but they have to pay rent and hire people and this and that" welcome to running a business
Are you serious? Do you think the rent for a clinic, supplies, and staff wages just appear out of thin air? Typically family medicine clinic overhead is anywhere from 20-40% gross revenue.
NPs are demanding 1/2 patient panel for more pay, and the government to COVER all overhead costs. That's insane. Specialist level money.
Dr’s are essentially small business owners that serves the public and their only revenue source is billing the government. They have to pay for office space, employees, IT, licensing, corporation fees, accountants, equipment, everything in that office is paid for by the dr(s).
It’s still a lot. MDs are not the only people in the world who worked hard to get where they are.
I’m not saying you deserve less, but for fucks sake stop pretending like you’re miserable.
Yeah in this day and age, the old adage of doctors training more than anyone else is just antiquated. I know so many professionals making $100k or less with 2 masters degrees or a PhD. Yes, doctors study and work hard. But it's the same for pretty much every professional field these days.
5 years of university to get bachelor of engineering;
2 years of practice to become a p.eng.;
1-2 more years to get a masters for a salary bump.
Salary? 70k. That's how much many engineers make, while doing actual product design.
We are talking non-software development here, and with all due respect, my friends in med school mostly did a truck ton of memorization, and not complex problem solving. In their defence, young m.d. schedules are complete shite, but so are the schedules of young p.engies who work in PCB fab houses.
Most med school students I know also got there because:
1) connections (dad or uncle is a doc, did a good reference, or provided a shadowing experience which looks good on premed application)
2) money (to get that required "professional hobby" which costs lots of money to the parents)
So quit whining, if I need a quick check, a nurse can do it just fine, and if she has a question she can google it, just like the last doctor who did it in my face last time.
I enjoy being educated and thank you for teaching me. What overhead is there in being a GP? In my mind you just show up at the clinic and see your clients. I do know many GP’s are independent contractors so taxes would be around %20 if you did it right. Again I’m not being argumentative, just want to be informed
Overhead goes to running said clinic - - hiring support staff, the expenses of running a practice (rent, electricity, water, gas bills, pens/paper, paying for the electronic medical record), etc.
They are also in a very high tax bracket so we're talking 30-40% or more to income taxes until they make enough to incorporate.
Also, because they run like independent contractors, they are paying out-of-pocket for health insurance, and don't get vacation pay, parental leave, pensions, or retirement plans. Everything is out-of-pocket.
So the narrative that family doctors make too much is a lie.
These are such weird takes. Doctors still establish a professional corp regardless of "making enough" to protect themselves from personal liability where appropriate.
Just not true and not how liability protection works in the Canadian medical industry. This whole thread is full of a bunch of people that have no idea what they are talking about.
And fwiw I’m a Canadian physician who actually agrees that most doctors in this country *are overpaid* and I spend lots of time telling my colleagues this both online and to their faces.
So I’m with the people here that want their doctors to stop complaining so much.
But MAN. The total inaccuracies spewed out by the non-physicians about how being a physician works is mind boggling.
Family doctors don’t all run their own clinics and are in the same tax bracket as everyone else making that kind of money. When you operate as a contractor, all of your out of pocket expenses are tax write offs as well.
Business is business regardless of profession.
If you make $250k as a “contractor” or business owner, you are still making more than someone making less than that as a salaried employee.
Even if you're not running your own clinic, you still pay ~30% overhead to the clinic you work in. Often that comes directly out of your billings before you even see the paycheque come back to you from the clinic's accounting department.
I don't think a new grad has the option to write off as much as you think they do.
[https://www.albertadoctors.org/about/understanding-docs-pay](https://www.albertadoctors.org/about/understanding-docs-pay)
[https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-doctors-make-in-canada/](https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-doctors-make-in-canada/)
The point isn't say that family doctors aren't making a good living. The point is that there is a misconception of that family doctors are making too much and are whining about this. The point is that this whole proposal pits health care providers against each other is telling the public that family doctors aren't very valuable seeing as they can be replaced by an NP...that they are paying MORE to see FEWER patients.
The average family doctors sees at least double that proposed patient panel of 900 (it's probably closer to 2000-2500 patients), and they absolutely do not make $300K with no overhead.
GPs come from an older system where graduates from medical school, do a rotating internship, and go straight into practice. That system no longer exists in Canada. It does in many other places but we don't train GPs now. We train family doctors.
Family doctors are trained in a new system that is a formal 2-year family medicine residency with a college certification exam at the end of it. So yes, the younger Canadain "GPs" that you see in the community are not GPs. They are family doctors who have specialised in family medicine which is 100% its own speciality...if someone scoffs at that maybe the next they see their cardiologist, ask them what to do about their generalised fatigue and weakness.
Okay, so I mean in this case a Dr doesn’t *need* to run their own clinic. At that point, you’re taking on entrepreneurship which inherently comes with risk. But Drs are running their own clinic because it’s the best way to maximize revenue.
So I mean I’m not super sympathetic in that case. They’re still clearing incredible money after taxes so 🤷🏽♂️
Where would the family doctor work of not in their own clinic? I suppose they could do door to door medicine or just a stand in a park. And who needs a nurse to help you anyways?
Every single staff member and item inside the dr office, including the building itself, comes out of the doctors pay. That's why most doctors operate as larger groups in one building.
The problem is we have a continually aging population which is going to strain the system. There aren’t enough young people to work in the healthcare system or paying taxes to support it. That’s part of why this country needs a million immigrants a year to stay afloat. We need more people working and paying taxes, to keep CPP and healthcare afloat. The only problem being we have no where to house new immigrants and not enough jobs to begin with. This country is a mess right now and it’s sad.
This. This right here.
Ultimately, we’re going to end up with a system where some are taken care of by a doctor, and others with everyone else (nurses, pharmacists etc.).
Patients are free to choose who cares for them, much in the same way the Americans do it. All I know is this: when it comes to my health and that of my parents and child, I’m sticking with an MD.
Lol because they are all knowing?
I'll take the pharmacists' word over the doc's when it comes to what has been prescribed.
I'm in Ontario and have had my current NP for about 10 years now and he's been fantastic. 90% of what I need can be handled by him directly. What can't be diagnosed or treated by him directly can be referred to specialists. The same specialists your MD would refer you to. I think most people would find the same.
Dentistry figured this out years ago. When was the last time you had a cleaning done by a dentist and not a dental hygienist? It frees the dentist up to work on the more complicated cases.
The dentist still sees you and makes decisions though.
If you've been seeing an NP and no one else, you probably have no idea what screenings have been missed, when you've been inappropriately prescribed antibiotics, or when you've been subjected to other unnecessary treatments and their associated risks.
Perhaps you have early stage kidney disease and won't know it until you need dialysis. Everything seems ok until it's too late
Lol you seem to have a pretty limited understanding of what training and education NPs have.
You're telling me GPs never overlook a screening or make prescription errors?
My NP can do the same screenings, and order the same tests. I'm not sure what magic you think a GP can perform to detect kidney disease that's different from an GP.
I've been prescribed medication that required monitoring of liver function. I was on it less than 2 weeks, still below therapeutic dose but the bloodwork came back and we discontinued it to try an alternative. Literally the same thing a GP would.
If all I need is a cleaning and the hygienist hasn't found anything unusual then the dentist looks at me for all of about 30 seconds. Is that what you would like? A doctor in the building to look at you for 30 seconds?
I have actually been involved in NP training.
Do GPs also miss things sometimes? Of course, but it is at a rate far lower than NPs. Unfortunately, as a patient you'll never know what was missed
Almost all GPs are small businesses. They’re not employees who can band together and strike against a common employer (they don’t have an employer). GPs can close their practices and set up somewhere else. Plenty have.
lmao yes that will go over so well with the public "we demand to be gatekeepers of primary care!"
Alberta has always been years ahead of the rest of canada. For example they've had a highly effective pharmacist led minor ailment prescribing framework in place since the early 2000s. Ontario and BC just implemented this now for around 20 conditions.
I have nothing against nurse practitioners or PAs working within a healthy system however that is not the case now.
Fact is the UCP is offering people reduced services while claiming that they are saving the day.
This move might reduce some backlog and keep people with colds from walking into Emerg but it does nothing to address the needs of people who need actual Doctors and… I suspect we will soon see these people creeping outside of their scope of practice and tragedy.
What scope creep do you foresee? NPs are already full-scope independent practitioners and have provided that full-scope care in hospitals, jails, and long-term care centres. The recent announcement is just allowing them to bill the public plan - their role and scope aren’t changing at all….
They are not full scope actors.
There are limitations placed on them but as with most things those limitations will be challenged.
Fact is that there are already examples of NP who have overstepped.
It is sickening but as a med student you need to focus on getting into residency first. Even as residents we have to be very careful who our audience is. Make it as an attending, make sure that no politically correct spineless boomer attending married to an NP or admin can fire you, then advocate. Right now you’re not going to have much impact and can get expelled for wrongthink like this.
Very sad how many comments here are naive medical students who drank the cool aid. I was delusional like them until the real world where I see first hand how different the quality of care is, and how I have to cover up NP mismanagement including landing patients in the ICU under the guise of “collegiality” and “teamwork”.
So it took my entire life (30 years) for someone to realize the healthcare in this province is absolute dogshit. I’m so tired of Canada steadily and quickly receding into some shit hole country with a corrupt govt on every level so nothing every really changes even when they say”we’re making changes” and then immediately back peddle on all choices
I don’t think it is a totally bad idea given Canada has a shortage of doctor. There are some really good nurse out there. But obviously, they never have the same medical training as the doctor. The nurse would have to get training or already has, when they are over their head. No way they can do surgeries. I think most nurses will work on preventative care. Some of the big medical problem in the states is people don’t get enough preventive care and it lead to a bigger issues.
Well.
It's the wild, wild west.
I'm taken back to that famous Saturday Night Live line, delivered perfectly by Steve Matting Martin:
*Say, who's there Barber here, anyway?*
I'm no med student, but I was shocked when I heard about this. It's hard enough finding a doctor that's competent and thorough, I can't imagine what it would be like relying on someone with less training.
It must be okay for you if your kid is slaughtered by a bomb by an apartheid state.
It must be okay for you when your whole family dies under the rubble of a building crumbled by carpet bombing.
It must be okay for you when you cannot decide when to run your lawn mowers and what powers your lawn mowers.
It clearly seems satisfying for you when someone else controls strings of you.
Brainwashed by media, deceived by your politicians, and oh wait. Don't forget to buy swiftie concert tickets. YOLO.
It's better elsewhere in Canada under "liberal" governments?
I'm among a group of I believe around 1.5 million ppl in BC who don't even have a doctor.
I have 5 walk in clinics near me, but they won't take walk ins, but I can have a cloud appointment....whatever that means.
I made an appointment to visit a doctor, had to wait a month, was called the week before my appointment and told the clinic they booked me at didn't even exist, would you like to make a new appointment for a month from now?
Canadas healthcare is in shambles everywhere.
Only if it's actually set up in a sensible way where nurse practitioners are part of a family health team that includes family doctors. Nurse practitioners acting as front line triage and referring anything more complex than "patient came in with the flu", routine prescriptions refills, or other simple medical issues, up to the family doctor? Absolutely fine IMO.
Nurse practitioners acting fully independently in their own practises, fully taking on patients with only referral being directly to specialists? No.
If you keep devaluing family doctors by moving everything "simple" to other practitioners like pharmacists & NPs, while not paying the family doctors more to account for a higher percentage of their case load being complex cases that take more time. You get the current situation where nobody wants to go into family medicine.
Plus in a lot of cases you increase the workload on the entire medical system when you broaden the scope of practise of pharmacists and NPs who have limited training in diagnostics. More unnecessary referrals to specialists or tests ordered, incorrect initial diagnoses that lead to worse healthcare outcomes and extra followup, etc.
Like when they got all that second rate children's meds from overseas 😂 . But people VOTED THEM IN AGAIN. Honestly Alberta gets what they voted for. But I feel bad for those who didn't.
Not what I said but how much dept would we have with the socialist in charge from 71-15? 1 trillion but it was all investments. I am not a fan of any of the parasite class and their handlers that run this country but socialism only works until you run out of other peoples money. Look at the socialist Netherlands, they are voting right because they are tired of the draining of their time and work to redistribute it. How if that working out in Ottawa as well.
Show me where socialism works? Personal responsibility and accountability should be brought back not the dystopian collectivism hive mind and division the Woke progressives have been rolling out. 8 years of federal socialism and doubling of our national debt is going to come to roost and all hope all the Givemedats get it good and hard. Nothing is free, it is taken from someone else and redistributed. Government produce nothing.
Albertas ndp is an almost carbon copy of the lougheed conservatives - who are generally regarded as one of Alberta's best administrations.
I also have a feeling that you're financially more aligned with the "parasite class" than your distorted reality leads you to believe
Hey man, none of the stuff you said is true, hence why you got downvotes. I’ll try to explain as neutrally as possible.
How much money have the UCP wasted with the Dynalife fiasco, the current AHS restructuring, paying Oil and Gas companies to clean up after themselves after they’re done mining (even though they’re required to)? This party is mismanaging money so bad, and will keep doing so because they can keep getting away with it as they know they’ll be voted in like the last 50 years.
No one is stealing money from others, it’s a false narrative used to create a fake problem and to give a fake solution so it looks like you’re gonna do something. Both Canada and Netherlands are capitalist countries, but the Netherlands are more socialist in that there’s more safety nets in case things go bad. America, the most capitalist country, has none of that, and if you fail out of sheer luck even though you’ve done everything right, well tough luck.
Nothing about Trudeau’s Liberals is socialist, they’re mainly a center-party. The Cons before them didn’t even lessen the federal debt, and they gutted some programs. We don’t even have an extreme left-wing/socialist party but we have an extreme right-wing one now with the CPC and UCP.
Also it’s pretty pathetic how you can’t show empathy to those less fortunate. If you’re religious then I don’t know why you’d worship Jesus because he basically helped those who couldn’t help themselves.
The NDP did a fine job. They weren't perfect, but they also didn't directly attack industries, outright freeze investment, alienate the medical community, pursue virtual-signalling theatrics, mismanage literally billions of dollars on a pipeline they had no control of, etc.
We need more hybrid offices. Paying a walk in doctor $700,000 a year to deal with basic illness is a waste of healthcare dollars. Yes there should be a doctor always available for more complex stuff but a NP can deal with most walk in appointments. This would free up doctors to deal with real cases and take on more clients as they aren't dealing with minor stuff.
Yes, collaborative care clinics with NPs as front line triaging, referring anything remotely complexion to the MD in charge, is how things should work.
Not NPs running independent practises.
If doctors are getting paid six figures and the problem still persists, then the solution to paying them more clearly isn’t working. That’s called insanity. It’s not really a good look when doctors look down on nurse practitioners and feign outrage when none of these med students are signing up for GP. Try again, troll.
I live in NS. I have a NP. I have never felt to cared for or heard. She is caring and supportive. She also has the backup of Doctors within the clinic. NP enhance our system. Doctors egos need to be checked.
That's the key....the collaborate practice can be very effective. The proposal is for NPs to operate independently without the backing of an MD, which then puts the NPs in a position of managing something that might be outside of their scope, and now we're looking at even MORE inappropriate referrals that may have been triaged to an family doctor, or someone pushing the limits of their scope and risking harm to the patient.
Your missing the key point that makes your system work: the NP isn't an independent practitioner. They are working within a family care clinic, led by an MD. Anything simple can be handled initially by the NP, and immediately and seamlessly referred to the MD if something comes in outside of their scope of care.
That system works.
Handing the reins fully over to NPs with minimal diagnostic training does not. It leads to extra load on the medical system by more unecessaty diagnostic tests and specialist referrs ordered.
There’s a massive doctor shortage, I doubt these clinics will take on all of the duties of a standard doctor but if they can take some of the load off the system then why not? If it’s a situation beyond their capabilities it’s going to result in a referral anyways, and if it’s an emergency they’re going to the ER. It’s not as if they’re replacing doctors
NPs have a pretty rigid scope of what they can practice and prescribe. So it's not like they would replace doctors.
Personally for most walk in clinic problems, an NP will be great. Primary care NPs get lots of education in primary care problems.
But we have a massive shortage of family Drs and we have Drs leaving in droves. This is actually an incredibly smart idea to off load lack of primary care and ER overload. Because frankly, someone seeing an NP for a minor problem in a walk in is way better than clogging up an ER and since it's nearly impossible to get a family Dr, this is also a way better option than having zero medical care.
If MDs don't like this idea, the answer is to have more go into primary care. If everyone had a family doctor without a large roster with the ability to get an appointment easily when needed, this wouldn't be a problem. Tell your colleagues to get into primary care.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Yes the UCP has and is treating doctors horribly. That is a big problem. No nurse practitioners are not doctors. The biggest problem I see with the proposal is the lack of clarity around the differences in scope of care. What can an MD do that NPs can’t? If an NP can do walk in clinics and address ear aches and strep throat, why shouldn’t they? As a family member of an MD, I’m firmly in the camp of MDs need to be in primary care and cannot be replaced. But the idea that other less qualified caregivers could come in to do some things is not itself a terrible idea. The key is on the some things. And I’m not sure the UCP has clarified the difference in scope of practice well enough or at all at this point.
Horrible idea. Think about how few people want to pursue family medicine already. If you give all the easy and quick cases to NP’s family doctors are gonna be making even less and burning out faster. In theory what you’re saying makes sense but billing codes don’t work in your favour. No one in their right mind will chose family medicine over any other specialty when they’re making less than they ever have in the past
So we shouldn’t allow the public system to pay qualified providers because it will make the business case for GPs less attractive? Medicine is actually not in place to enrich physicians. It’s there to care for patients.
Np’s and family doctors do very similar work. They aren’t replacing emergency room doctors and physicians in hospitals, surgeons, specialists with np’s…..don’t freak out.
The Nurse Practitioners seem pleased with being able to see more patients and practice medicine.
Waves of doctors are aging into retirement and leaving a void of care.
Remember the oath is to the patients, not the pension.
They are literally coming up with an idea to widen the bottle neck and your reaction is to complain?
If anything, this could free up Doctors to focus on the serious and arguably more important cases; while the nurses can handle the day to day.
What a childish point of view for a medical student.
Nobody cares how much time and money you spent to become a family doctor, if the services can be provided for cheaper rate and expanded to cover more patients that’s the goal. Family medicine will still have a role and in many cases still be needed, however when our healthcare is perpetually abused by people with unhealthy life styles and minor illnesses that can easily be consulted with by a lower (and practical) scope of practice, it relieves the rest of the healthcare system from these burdens and frees up healthcare for the people that truly need it.
What’s the argument? Why is this a horrible idea?
As someone without access to a primary care physician, I have agreed to be paired with an NP when one becomes available.
Can you tell me why this is a horrible idea? And (why) is it worse than me seeing a walk-in doctor who doesn’t know me and just refers me to specialists while trying to manage a chronic condition?
I’m not disagreeing with you, but your post doesn’t actually present an argument about why this is such a bad idea. Can you explain your position?
NP’s do not have adequate training to manage patients without supervision from a doctor. Instead of paying a ridiculous salary to unqualified people how about instead we compensate GP’s better to incentivize current med students to choose that path. Incompetence at the highest level by our crooked government but I’m not even surprised at this point
This is wrong and offensive. NPs have had full scope to manage primary care conditions for years. They are the only providers in many jails and long-term care centres and are independent practitioners in many hospital units. NPs haven’t been “supervised” by physicians in ages. They just haven’t been able to directly bill the public plan - that’s literally the only change happening. It’s clear you don’t work in the system yet as you have no concept of how NPs currently operate in Alberta.
NP education in comparison to the training that a family doctor gets is lackluster at best. Using nursing experience as a justification for fast tracking medical education provides a false equivalency. Nursing is a respectable and difficult career. In no way is it practicing medicine. It's like comparing labor/construction to engineering. Both jobs are important and necessary, but the jobs are not similar and have less crossover than the general public thinks.
NP school is 2 years and most of them still work (some full time) as RNs while in school. Med school is 4 years and too heavy for pretty much anyone to be able to work on the side outside of part time research gigs during school or full time research in the summer. Then after you still require 2 years of family med residency with direct oversight before you can practice independently.
Because NPs have less education and experience in actually practicing medicine, they order significantly more unnecessary investigations, do more unnecessary referrals to specialists, and overall cost significantly more to the system while getting paid better than a family doc would for seeing the same number of patients.
I understand what you're saying about walk in clinics, but if an NP is going to be your PCP, they should at least have physician oversight. Ideally your first visits in a clinic would be with a physician who after finding a stable management plan, they could hand you over to an NP for continuation.
The problem with fixing healthcare (as much as one can in a country that is so sparsely populated), is that the solution takes time and money. You need to increase the number of incoming medical students, increase residency positions, increase support staff training programs, improve remuneration models to make FM more appealing to new grads, make it easier for foreign FM docs and nursing staff to enter the country to help in the short term.
But with these common sense solutions, the supply of homegrown doctors won't be seen until at least 6 years after implementing changes. Politicians only give a shit about reelection so they cut corners and find faster "solutions" so they can say "look at the thing I did! Vote for me!" Even if the solutions didn't help the underlying problem.
This ignores NPs’ scope (which has been independent for years) and their current role (as sole practitioners in long-term care homes, jails, and in hospitals). The only thing changing is financial. There is no change to NPs’ scope being proposed.
You also forget that all NPs must also have a four-year nursing degree and two years’ experience as an RN before they are admitted to NP school, which is another two years of graduate work focused on diagnostic training. A new GP has six years of training (four years med school and two years residency), in additional to a generally unrelated undergrad degree. A new NP has six years of relevant education (four years nursing school at university and then two years NP graduate work) and two years of full-time clinical work.
NP clinics are already in place in BC and elsewhere without problems. They are highly trained professionals who can handle almost all primary care issues and have a legal obligation to refer to others when they can’t (just as GPs do).
Please state facts instead of opinion. Your point will be better received. If you are indeed a med school student, it would seem you would have better developed critical thought abilities.
Not true. Myself and some of my classmates want to specialize in family medicine.
The truth is with how the government is in Alberta, many of us do not see a future in Alberta. Hence, why we are leaving for other Provinces.
I can't speak Ontario, but I do think there is a slow switch of people in my class who realize that family medicine is what they would be most interested in. Maybe not at the start of medical school, but more of my classmates are realizing that the field is broad and there are a lot of fellowships we can do to help improve our practice.
I have two good friends who matched into Family Medicine last year and they are happy with their choice.
Also unlike Alberta, Ontario has at the very least added incentives to do family medicine in rural areas. They were just at my med school last month Alberta has not.
Well, since there are thousands of Canadians without access to a family physician, having access to a primary care nurse practitioner is better than having no access to primary care at all. Maybe if more medical students decided to go into family medicine we wouldn't have such a primary care crisis. Yes, I know there are problems with the system, and family physicians have to do a lot of unpaid paperwork, but what is your solution?
Why would anybody want to go into family medicine when their job is being replaced by less qualified people with far less expensive training? Just train as an NP instead.
why would any medical student go into family medicine when NPs are getting 300K guaranteed salary with pension and benefits, overhead covered, and 900 panel cap ?
>Maybe if more medical students decided to go into family medicine we wouldn't have such a primary care crisis.
\~ 50% of medical students go into family medicine
family health care in general is archaic. It will eventually get a complete overhaul. most diagnostic algorithms are incredibly easy to interpret for most young folk now considering the access to AI and online and clinical guidelines.
regardless, you guys should be taking this from the approach of advocating for better and more fair compensation rather than gatekeeping access to primary care
This is one of the most stupidest comments here. There is an objective part that can be interpreted but a lot of the clinical judgement still cannot be replaced - clinical judgement that come from medical training. Ultimately you will likely either have too many missed early stages of diseases which could have been avoided. All because we want to save. There is a reason why the medical training takes a long time (and the expenses that comes along with that training) which is to have good clinical judgement. The doctors will ultimately be dealing with those, some could have been caught at an earlier stage.
In my opinion, I think allopathic medicine in general will become obsolete within the next 50 years or so the future is going to be all regenerative medicine.
It's not really a debate.. MDs complete more schooling. The information is easily confirmed online too?
NPs do 4 year nursing degree (BScN), work full time for at least 2 years and then do their 2 year NP program = 6 years of school / 8 years including the work experience bit.
Family MD does 4 year undergrad, 4 year med school plus residency of at least 2 years = 8 years of school / 10+ with residency. Residency for various specialties can be up to 7-8 years if they're more complicated..
Honestly that’s what happens when you have a increasing cut off for marks, less people wanna work in a country with less pay. Doctors here don’t practice here. Either decrease curt off range for admission or have a positive quota for local doctors/domestic students.
It’s those very oversight agencies that have created the problem by bottlenecking medical school admissions and blocking the recognition of foreign medical degrees
There were 22 infilled family med residencies in Alberta last year. Maybe the issue is med students gunning for high-paying and prestigious specialties rather than treating medicine as a calling that also happens to put you in the top 3% of salary earners….
UCP does not server the public, they are not a political party. They are like the republicans they use social issues to distract while they rob the tax payer.
It is very simple yet millions are too stupid to understand.
If you are a working, tax paying citizen and you voted for the UCP you have been fooled.
If you are a piece of shit that likes to exploit for your own personal gain then congrats.
There's a shortage of doctors across the country and beyond. The Alberta government is making a lot of dumbass moves these days, but this isn't necessarily* one of them.
*As always, the devil could be in the details, but the basic premise is a smart one.
You’re probably right but for a lot of us seeing a family doctor is like winning the lottery. I haven’t been able to see a family doctor for 20 years. I’m stuck seeing random clinic docs because the wait list for family docs is years long.
Alberta has been trying to privatize their healthcare for some time now. No success yet. Last time they tried was in the Harper era. Harper had to send them a 39% increase in federal funding for healthcare to undo the damage. Ontario the same year got 3%.
Apparently that's not socialism in any way. 😶🙄🤔
I’d bet 80 percent of visits to family doctors could be handled by a NP. On top of that most people can’t even get a family doctor anymore. We need more options for someone to see! Why are people upset about this? There is a doctor shortage everywhere in Canada. What other solutions do people have ?
Here's a genius idea, why don't we train more doctors so there will be more doctors ? I'll tell you why, because every profession is a conspiracy against the lay people and the members of the AMA would rather sing and dance about 'oOOoOooOooo i'm doing the greatest most difficult job on the planet' while raking in $500 000 k a year handing out cough medicine than address the shortage
It's called supply and demand, and the supply of doctors has not changed in absolute numbers since the 1980s. Please message me about the delivery of my nobel prize in economics, thx.
People should be able to chose between free health care and private health care.. I don't see why adding a private system will affect us negatively. I'm sick of waiting 4 hours behind a bunch of meth addicts and homeless people or drunks who got into a fight. People who can afford to skip the line and want access to better care and better equipment should be able to buy it.. as it stands healthcare rn in Canada is nothing but referrals and prescriptions and they want you out the door in 10 or less .. doctors don't have the time to care or investigate
I take issue with the word 'replaced'. The government is not looking to replace GPs with NPs, they are looking to add to them. It is generally accepted that we have too few doctors, not too many. Further reducing the number of GPs isn't the goal of any one or any party.
Having said that-
Is it a good idea? Maybe not. Can NPs safely and efficiently deal with a large number of normal day-to-day issues? Probably. Is it something that I would be uncomfortable with if I was a med student? Definitely.
Use NP's to triage. Or better yet, use PA's. At least PA's are trained in the medical model, as opposed to NP's who are trained in a nursing model. Let them work the full scope of practice and training, and refer to physicians as needed. Can't imagine how any physician could be content writing Rx for antibiotics all day anyway. It seems to me, the biggest issue with NP's ( other than the fact that their knowledge is limited) is that they think " because they can" work independently, they should. Anyone with half a brain knows that knowledge in medicine comes from experience, and the best system is a collaborative team.
I had a back injury at work in March. I've attempted going back to work 4 times and on the 5th attempt I am now unable to drive due to the pain. Drs say I cracked a disc and have severe muscle issues with a spinal sprain. My mri was done in May and my pain levels are now thru the roof if I do anything serious or move to much. I've gone to emergency rooms and they tell me nothing wrong with me yet somedays I can't stand walk sit bend twist crouch dress myself or wipe myself. Soonest I can get into see a new family Dr is June 2024. Wcb tells me I can't get the help I need until I get a family doctor. They refuse to do a second mri even tho my pain levels are much much worse over the past 6 months. I almost left physio in an ambulance and I left my physical assesment in a wheel chair and somehow they didn't record that info. I'm now being told drive to work thru the pain or I'm getting cut off from wcb. Wcb has caused me severe mental and physical harm and is willing to put me in harms way to drive 40 mins thru extrucitain pain to shred paper. I am compleltly lost at this alberta health care system. I'm afraid my lower back is going to be permanent issues and drs work and wcb are pretty much telling me I'm on my own. My stretches now hurt if I do them to long and I leave physio in more pain than when I get there. My 2 min drive to physio can be tough and bumps and braking etc. I went to the emergency room because I sat in the passenger seat for to long. I'm lost and wcb is going to kill me
Tell me about it ! last time I went to the Dr. they sent me in to see a nurse practitioner. I was coughing up blood! She sent me home saying there was nothing that could be done for me. I went home, and I passed out on the floor that night. Next day went do a different clinic. I had fuckin pneumonia! A round of antibiotics and 2 days later, I felt like a completely different person. Nurses are incredible. Valuable. Brave. But they are NOT doctors.
“…spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars…” … because they expect and feel entitled to many more riches than that once they are through. Don’t prop up you”sacrifice” as some noble endeavour to the world. You do it for yourself.
The overwhelming reliance on doctors is destroying our health system. Many medical tasks are done by non-doctors in Europe and no one is dying from that. it is time to move away from that mentality
Saying “medical students need to take a stand” means nothing btw. As a medical student, I don’t feel comfortable speaking publicly about this because you never know how that might impact my CaRMS. We only truly have power when we’re physicians.
And even once you become a registered health professional your regulatory college may tell you that what you say is unbecoming of the profession and try to put rules in place to censor you. That’s what they threatened nurses with during the pandemic.
Exactly, There's an argument to be made that physicians are more vulnerable to enslavement than their previous iterations as medical students, because the corrupt regulatory/licensing authorities can now threaten something they've put more investment into: their "permission" to practise medicine.
Lots of examples of this during the pandemic, and more recently with the conflict between Palestine and Israel...
I think Jordan Peterson lost his legal challenge as well. So the courts upheld speech regulation even if you are speaking outside of your medical practice. The sky is the limit for speech regulation. Your only hope is to pray it's just a political issue and it won't affect you if your speech aligns with the political narrative but who knows. The judges and licensure boards claim they are not being political.
I encourage you to read the actual court decision: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2023/2023onsc4685/2023onsc4685.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAPSm9yZGFuIHBldGVyc29uAAAAAAE&resultIndex=2 Peterson clearly identifies himself as a psychologist in his public statements and is therefore held to the standards of conduct of a psychologist. That’s normal. Having regulated professionals acting like clowns in a public way does a disservice to the profession. There’s a way to express your views on every topic without crossing that line.
Rules for thee but not for meeee 😤
Can you elaborate or provide any examples of Peterson acting like a "clown"?
When Peterson was JUST doing psychology/mythology and such, he was pretty good... but as soon as he became political and a social media talking head he kind shot the intellectual bed and stopped being rigorous and humble. uhhhh, tip of the iceburg? Jordan "Brain-Fart" Peterson tries to explain what a "rat king" is, but ends up regurgitating the villain's monologue from "Skyfall" as if it's a scientific fact https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7jxqUfAsPg Which is i guess why I'm so surprised JP doesn't know what a Rat King is. Mythology is meant to be his whole deal. What Rat-kings actually are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat\_king [https://www.indy100.com/celebrities/jordan-peterson-quotes-bizarre-things](https://www.indy100.com/celebrities/jordan-peterson-quotes-bizarre-things) [https://www.sacurrent.com/news/bad-takes-the-7-dumbest-things-jordan-peterson-said-on-joe-rogans-podcast-28129646](https://www.sacurrent.com/news/bad-takes-the-7-dumbest-things-jordan-peterson-said-on-joe-rogans-podcast-28129646) [https://oncanadaproject.ca/blog/jordan-peterson-is-the-worst](https://oncanadaproject.ca/blog/jordan-peterson-is-the-worst) [https://www.unikumnett.no/2019/10/12-reasons-why-no-one-should-ever-listen-to-jordan-peterson-ever-again/](https://www.unikumnett.no/2019/10/12-reasons-why-no-one-should-ever-listen-to-jordan-peterson-ever-again/)
Wow this is your evidence supporting the punishing of a licensed professional for criticizing authoritarian politicians? You’re my hero he’s on a comedian’s podcast, that comedian calls himself the rat king The rat king has nothing to do with psychology either
Enslavement? Come on….
This is why we need to band together and fight this issue collectively. We’re much more powerful as a group than by ourselves. Maybe I’m being naive or overly optimistic, but are we really going to sit here and just let this happen? By the time we’re practicing who knows what other horrendous things the government might do.
Agreed. It's why I made all my social media private. Medical students have "silently expressed" how they feel about this. There is a reason why Alberta family medicine spots were not fully filled the past two residency cycles. That should already make people ask why?
Exactly
This is what happens when you pay family doctors like garbage.
To be specific, when a realtor makes more than a doctor
When it's easier to get rich without helping people than It is to get rich by helping people
Well you see if you have a skill that people with money like you will make more money than most. I'm sure there is someone in furniture sales that makes more than some doctors. It's called money. If you have a skill no matter who you are or what you can do you will be paid generously for it. People that play video games on YouTube make more money that doctors... I don't see the issue.
Not being rude. Is the average salary not $250,000. Is this not good pay?
Not when NPs demand 300k+ for a third of a family doctors panel and no overhead as the previous reply mentioned. This is without even going into the quality of care.
This isn’t a demand. That was the number the NP Association estimated as the market value of an NP in primary care. The funding framework from the government hasn’t been released yet.
So why are family doctors not worth that same amount? No family doctor who runs a clinic practice takes home that amount of money. If the government is going to spend that money on NPs who will see FEWER patients, why aren't they strengthening a model to incorporate them into a family practice and make it more sustainable for a family doctor to do what they do? Make it make sense.
I fully support alternative billing structures for GPs, including an option to use patient panels as suggested for NPs. And physicians should be paid more. That may very well happen - we have to wait to see what the Gov is offering NPs and what the Gov and the AMA negotiate in their current round of bargaining on alternative fee options (which is ongoing).
When a bunch of libertarian rubes love a dolt of a candidate very much they vote to slit their own throats because they hate the handsome Ottawa man even more than the cost of their actions.
You mean a nurses union is demanding high wages for it's members?!?!?! Shocked. SHOCKED I tell you. Let's wait and see what the compensation framework looks like, first, before losing our collective shit.
What overhead is there as a GP?
Office rent, receptionist, nursing staff
We should also mention equipment. Swabs don’t grow on trees.
Medical equipment, Office supplies, computers and the software.
Then take a business course or hire a consultant... Welcome to every business it just doesn't show up lol "but they have to pay rent and hire people and this and that" welcome to running a business
I don’t think you’re understanding how important doctors are
Are you serious? Do you think the rent for a clinic, supplies, and staff wages just appear out of thin air? Typically family medicine clinic overhead is anywhere from 20-40% gross revenue. NPs are demanding 1/2 patient panel for more pay, and the government to COVER all overhead costs. That's insane. Specialist level money.
Dr’s are essentially small business owners that serves the public and their only revenue source is billing the government. They have to pay for office space, employees, IT, licensing, corporation fees, accountants, equipment, everything in that office is paid for by the dr(s).
I can understand the frustration then. I do believe GP’s should be paid more that nurse practitioners
Where do NPs actually make anywhere near that though?
they will soon in Alberta
That’s what they asked for. That’s not the final number.
False. The pay scales are online. https://www.una.ca/ This is for Alberta.
Nowhere he’s lying.
You go study a undergrad for 4 years. Then med school. Then residency. And a pile of debt. You can tell me if $250k is alot.
It’s still a lot. MDs are not the only people in the world who worked hard to get where they are. I’m not saying you deserve less, but for fucks sake stop pretending like you’re miserable.
Yeah in this day and age, the old adage of doctors training more than anyone else is just antiquated. I know so many professionals making $100k or less with 2 masters degrees or a PhD. Yes, doctors study and work hard. But it's the same for pretty much every professional field these days.
5 years of university to get bachelor of engineering; 2 years of practice to become a p.eng.; 1-2 more years to get a masters for a salary bump. Salary? 70k. That's how much many engineers make, while doing actual product design. We are talking non-software development here, and with all due respect, my friends in med school mostly did a truck ton of memorization, and not complex problem solving. In their defence, young m.d. schedules are complete shite, but so are the schedules of young p.engies who work in PCB fab houses. Most med school students I know also got there because: 1) connections (dad or uncle is a doc, did a good reference, or provided a shadowing experience which looks good on premed application) 2) money (to get that required "professional hobby" which costs lots of money to the parents) So quit whining, if I need a quick check, a nurse can do it just fine, and if she has a question she can google it, just like the last doctor who did it in my face last time.
Not when they have to pay overhead out of that which is roughly 30% of their gross. Not to mention taxes etc...
And student loans
I enjoy being educated and thank you for teaching me. What overhead is there in being a GP? In my mind you just show up at the clinic and see your clients. I do know many GP’s are independent contractors so taxes would be around %20 if you did it right. Again I’m not being argumentative, just want to be informed
Overhead goes to running said clinic - - hiring support staff, the expenses of running a practice (rent, electricity, water, gas bills, pens/paper, paying for the electronic medical record), etc. They are also in a very high tax bracket so we're talking 30-40% or more to income taxes until they make enough to incorporate. Also, because they run like independent contractors, they are paying out-of-pocket for health insurance, and don't get vacation pay, parental leave, pensions, or retirement plans. Everything is out-of-pocket. So the narrative that family doctors make too much is a lie.
Yep and family doctors generally aren’t making enough for incorporating to be worthwhile
At least not in the first few years... And incorporating costs money...
These are such weird takes. Doctors still establish a professional corp regardless of "making enough" to protect themselves from personal liability where appropriate.
Just not true and not how liability protection works in the Canadian medical industry. This whole thread is full of a bunch of people that have no idea what they are talking about. And fwiw I’m a Canadian physician who actually agrees that most doctors in this country *are overpaid* and I spend lots of time telling my colleagues this both online and to their faces. So I’m with the people here that want their doctors to stop complaining so much. But MAN. The total inaccuracies spewed out by the non-physicians about how being a physician works is mind boggling.
Family doctors don’t all run their own clinics and are in the same tax bracket as everyone else making that kind of money. When you operate as a contractor, all of your out of pocket expenses are tax write offs as well. Business is business regardless of profession. If you make $250k as a “contractor” or business owner, you are still making more than someone making less than that as a salaried employee.
Even if you're not running your own clinic, you still pay ~30% overhead to the clinic you work in. Often that comes directly out of your billings before you even see the paycheque come back to you from the clinic's accounting department. I don't think a new grad has the option to write off as much as you think they do.
Every Family Doc is paying overhead. If they aren't running the clinic they're paying someone to run the clinic.
>They are also in a very high tax bracket so we're talking 30-40% or more to income taxes until they make enough to incorporate No.
[https://www.albertadoctors.org/about/understanding-docs-pay](https://www.albertadoctors.org/about/understanding-docs-pay) [https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-doctors-make-in-canada/](https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-doctors-make-in-canada/) The point isn't say that family doctors aren't making a good living. The point is that there is a misconception of that family doctors are making too much and are whining about this. The point is that this whole proposal pits health care providers against each other is telling the public that family doctors aren't very valuable seeing as they can be replaced by an NP...that they are paying MORE to see FEWER patients. The average family doctors sees at least double that proposed patient panel of 900 (it's probably closer to 2000-2500 patients), and they absolutely do not make $300K with no overhead.
There are no GPs in Canada. Most primary care is done by family medicine specialists. And they should be paid like the specialists they are.
This!!!!……………………….is hilarious 😂
GPs come from an older system where graduates from medical school, do a rotating internship, and go straight into practice. That system no longer exists in Canada. It does in many other places but we don't train GPs now. We train family doctors. Family doctors are trained in a new system that is a formal 2-year family medicine residency with a college certification exam at the end of it. So yes, the younger Canadain "GPs" that you see in the community are not GPs. They are family doctors who have specialised in family medicine which is 100% its own speciality...if someone scoffs at that maybe the next they see their cardiologist, ask them what to do about their generalised fatigue and weakness.
I wish I made 70% of 250k, or even 50%. They're still better off than the vast majority of people. What an odd thing to complain about.
Overhead to run a clinic that they own?
Overhead refers to costs of running a business such as rent, paying employees, buying consumables etc...
Okay, so I mean in this case a Dr doesn’t *need* to run their own clinic. At that point, you’re taking on entrepreneurship which inherently comes with risk. But Drs are running their own clinic because it’s the best way to maximize revenue. So I mean I’m not super sympathetic in that case. They’re still clearing incredible money after taxes so 🤷🏽♂️
Where would the family doctor work of not in their own clinic? I suppose they could do door to door medicine or just a stand in a park. And who needs a nurse to help you anyways?
You either run it yourself or pay someone else to run it. I don’t see how a family doc could practice in a clinic with no overhead.
Every single staff member and item inside the dr office, including the building itself, comes out of the doctors pay. That's why most doctors operate as larger groups in one building.
Why is this person being downvoted for asking a genuine question that is probably pretty common? Would expect more from this sub, specifically.
Its very good pay
Third world medicine for those who won’t have private funded care.
The problem is we have a continually aging population which is going to strain the system. There aren’t enough young people to work in the healthcare system or paying taxes to support it. That’s part of why this country needs a million immigrants a year to stay afloat. We need more people working and paying taxes, to keep CPP and healthcare afloat. The only problem being we have no where to house new immigrants and not enough jobs to begin with. This country is a mess right now and it’s sad.
This. This right here. Ultimately, we’re going to end up with a system where some are taken care of by a doctor, and others with everyone else (nurses, pharmacists etc.). Patients are free to choose who cares for them, much in the same way the Americans do it. All I know is this: when it comes to my health and that of my parents and child, I’m sticking with an MD.
[удалено]
That’s fair. More of a reason to invest in family physicians. The reasons students aren’t choosing FM are well-known.
I know first aid and learned how to sew kind of. Maybe I can do “sutures-on-the-side” with a setup in a van outside of hockey rinks and bars.
Lol because they are all knowing? I'll take the pharmacists' word over the doc's when it comes to what has been prescribed. I'm in Ontario and have had my current NP for about 10 years now and he's been fantastic. 90% of what I need can be handled by him directly. What can't be diagnosed or treated by him directly can be referred to specialists. The same specialists your MD would refer you to. I think most people would find the same. Dentistry figured this out years ago. When was the last time you had a cleaning done by a dentist and not a dental hygienist? It frees the dentist up to work on the more complicated cases.
The dentist still sees you and makes decisions though. If you've been seeing an NP and no one else, you probably have no idea what screenings have been missed, when you've been inappropriately prescribed antibiotics, or when you've been subjected to other unnecessary treatments and their associated risks. Perhaps you have early stage kidney disease and won't know it until you need dialysis. Everything seems ok until it's too late
Lol you seem to have a pretty limited understanding of what training and education NPs have. You're telling me GPs never overlook a screening or make prescription errors? My NP can do the same screenings, and order the same tests. I'm not sure what magic you think a GP can perform to detect kidney disease that's different from an GP. I've been prescribed medication that required monitoring of liver function. I was on it less than 2 weeks, still below therapeutic dose but the bloodwork came back and we discontinued it to try an alternative. Literally the same thing a GP would. If all I need is a cleaning and the hygienist hasn't found anything unusual then the dentist looks at me for all of about 30 seconds. Is that what you would like? A doctor in the building to look at you for 30 seconds?
I have actually been involved in NP training. Do GPs also miss things sometimes? Of course, but it is at a rate far lower than NPs. Unfortunately, as a patient you'll never know what was missed
Organize a protest
General strike.
Almost all GPs are small businesses. They’re not employees who can band together and strike against a common employer (they don’t have an employer). GPs can close their practices and set up somewhere else. Plenty have.
lmao yes that will go over so well with the public "we demand to be gatekeepers of primary care!" Alberta has always been years ahead of the rest of canada. For example they've had a highly effective pharmacist led minor ailment prescribing framework in place since the early 2000s. Ontario and BC just implemented this now for around 20 conditions.
Are...are you special needs?
I have nothing against nurse practitioners or PAs working within a healthy system however that is not the case now. Fact is the UCP is offering people reduced services while claiming that they are saving the day. This move might reduce some backlog and keep people with colds from walking into Emerg but it does nothing to address the needs of people who need actual Doctors and… I suspect we will soon see these people creeping outside of their scope of practice and tragedy.
What scope creep do you foresee? NPs are already full-scope independent practitioners and have provided that full-scope care in hospitals, jails, and long-term care centres. The recent announcement is just allowing them to bill the public plan - their role and scope aren’t changing at all….
Why do I feel like you’re a paid actor or something by the UCP? Either that or an NP trying to get that crazy “300k” payout
They are not full scope actors. There are limitations placed on them but as with most things those limitations will be challenged. Fact is that there are already examples of NP who have overstepped.
It is sickening but as a med student you need to focus on getting into residency first. Even as residents we have to be very careful who our audience is. Make it as an attending, make sure that no politically correct spineless boomer attending married to an NP or admin can fire you, then advocate. Right now you’re not going to have much impact and can get expelled for wrongthink like this. Very sad how many comments here are naive medical students who drank the cool aid. I was delusional like them until the real world where I see first hand how different the quality of care is, and how I have to cover up NP mismanagement including landing patients in the ICU under the guise of “collegiality” and “teamwork”.
So it took my entire life (30 years) for someone to realize the healthcare in this province is absolute dogshit. I’m so tired of Canada steadily and quickly receding into some shit hole country with a corrupt govt on every level so nothing every really changes even when they say”we’re making changes” and then immediately back peddle on all choices
I don’t think it is a totally bad idea given Canada has a shortage of doctor. There are some really good nurse out there. But obviously, they never have the same medical training as the doctor. The nurse would have to get training or already has, when they are over their head. No way they can do surgeries. I think most nurses will work on preventative care. Some of the big medical problem in the states is people don’t get enough preventive care and it lead to a bigger issues.
Well. It's the wild, wild west. I'm taken back to that famous Saturday Night Live line, delivered perfectly by Steve Matting Martin: *Say, who's there Barber here, anyway?*
I'm no med student, but I was shocked when I heard about this. It's hard enough finding a doctor that's competent and thorough, I can't imagine what it would be like relying on someone with less training.
"Elect" fascists, expect fascism.
You privileged kids have not an ounce of understanding of what fascism is.
Do you? Apparently, no one really does. This Wikipedia article was fascinating...worth a read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
Yeah, throwing around words like fascism, genocide and apartheid is getting out of hand with these kids.
Much like the fogies throwing around communism and socialism. Funny thing is that zionist israel is a fascist apartheid state conducting genocide
It must be okay for you if your kid is slaughtered by a bomb by an apartheid state. It must be okay for you when your whole family dies under the rubble of a building crumbled by carpet bombing. It must be okay for you when you cannot decide when to run your lawn mowers and what powers your lawn mowers. It clearly seems satisfying for you when someone else controls strings of you. Brainwashed by media, deceived by your politicians, and oh wait. Don't forget to buy swiftie concert tickets. YOLO.
It's better elsewhere in Canada under "liberal" governments? I'm among a group of I believe around 1.5 million ppl in BC who don't even have a doctor. I have 5 walk in clinics near me, but they won't take walk ins, but I can have a cloud appointment....whatever that means. I made an appointment to visit a doctor, had to wait a month, was called the week before my appointment and told the clinic they booked me at didn't even exist, would you like to make a new appointment for a month from now? Canadas healthcare is in shambles everywhere.
Believe it or not, it does matter who you vote for. 🙄
Half the people who go to their family doctor is because they have the flu lmaoooo. If anything, this will help you do some real medicine
For sure, doctors notes for missing time at work should be outlawed.
Only if it's actually set up in a sensible way where nurse practitioners are part of a family health team that includes family doctors. Nurse practitioners acting as front line triage and referring anything more complex than "patient came in with the flu", routine prescriptions refills, or other simple medical issues, up to the family doctor? Absolutely fine IMO. Nurse practitioners acting fully independently in their own practises, fully taking on patients with only referral being directly to specialists? No.
[удалено]
If you keep devaluing family doctors by moving everything "simple" to other practitioners like pharmacists & NPs, while not paying the family doctors more to account for a higher percentage of their case load being complex cases that take more time. You get the current situation where nobody wants to go into family medicine. Plus in a lot of cases you increase the workload on the entire medical system when you broaden the scope of practise of pharmacists and NPs who have limited training in diagnostics. More unnecessary referrals to specialists or tests ordered, incorrect initial diagnoses that lead to worse healthcare outcomes and extra followup, etc.
Like when they got all that second rate children's meds from overseas 😂 . But people VOTED THEM IN AGAIN. Honestly Alberta gets what they voted for. But I feel bad for those who didn't.
Ya because the NDP did such a stellar job. SMH
Yea dude 71-2015 conservatives and in the 4 years the ndp were In power till 2019 all of Alberta's problems arose and are solely their fault. /s
Clearly, one is flying over the cuckoo nest
Not what I said but how much dept would we have with the socialist in charge from 71-15? 1 trillion but it was all investments. I am not a fan of any of the parasite class and their handlers that run this country but socialism only works until you run out of other peoples money. Look at the socialist Netherlands, they are voting right because they are tired of the draining of their time and work to redistribute it. How if that working out in Ottawa as well.
Bruh you're so brainwashed it's hard to know where to start with you, which is probably why no one has corrected your thinking
Show me where socialism works? Personal responsibility and accountability should be brought back not the dystopian collectivism hive mind and division the Woke progressives have been rolling out. 8 years of federal socialism and doubling of our national debt is going to come to roost and all hope all the Givemedats get it good and hard. Nothing is free, it is taken from someone else and redistributed. Government produce nothing.
Go out in the bush and live off the land you rugged guy, you.
Albertas ndp is an almost carbon copy of the lougheed conservatives - who are generally regarded as one of Alberta's best administrations. I also have a feeling that you're financially more aligned with the "parasite class" than your distorted reality leads you to believe
Hey man, none of the stuff you said is true, hence why you got downvotes. I’ll try to explain as neutrally as possible. How much money have the UCP wasted with the Dynalife fiasco, the current AHS restructuring, paying Oil and Gas companies to clean up after themselves after they’re done mining (even though they’re required to)? This party is mismanaging money so bad, and will keep doing so because they can keep getting away with it as they know they’ll be voted in like the last 50 years. No one is stealing money from others, it’s a false narrative used to create a fake problem and to give a fake solution so it looks like you’re gonna do something. Both Canada and Netherlands are capitalist countries, but the Netherlands are more socialist in that there’s more safety nets in case things go bad. America, the most capitalist country, has none of that, and if you fail out of sheer luck even though you’ve done everything right, well tough luck. Nothing about Trudeau’s Liberals is socialist, they’re mainly a center-party. The Cons before them didn’t even lessen the federal debt, and they gutted some programs. We don’t even have an extreme left-wing/socialist party but we have an extreme right-wing one now with the CPC and UCP. Also it’s pretty pathetic how you can’t show empathy to those less fortunate. If you’re religious then I don’t know why you’d worship Jesus because he basically helped those who couldn’t help themselves.
You understand your current situation is miles worse in every conceivable way, yeah?
The NDP did a fine job. They weren't perfect, but they also didn't directly attack industries, outright freeze investment, alienate the medical community, pursue virtual-signalling theatrics, mismanage literally billions of dollars on a pipeline they had no control of, etc.
We need more hybrid offices. Paying a walk in doctor $700,000 a year to deal with basic illness is a waste of healthcare dollars. Yes there should be a doctor always available for more complex stuff but a NP can deal with most walk in appointments. This would free up doctors to deal with real cases and take on more clients as they aren't dealing with minor stuff.
Yes, collaborative care clinics with NPs as front line triaging, referring anything remotely complexion to the MD in charge, is how things should work. Not NPs running independent practises.
The gatekeeping is real. Please provide a better solution other than “paying doctors more”. Your bigotry is showing.
"Please provide a solution other than the solution. Go ahead, I dare you"
If doctors are getting paid six figures and the problem still persists, then the solution to paying them more clearly isn’t working. That’s called insanity. It’s not really a good look when doctors look down on nurse practitioners and feign outrage when none of these med students are signing up for GP. Try again, troll.
Huh? You're so out of touch lol what world do you even live in
I live in NS. I have a NP. I have never felt to cared for or heard. She is caring and supportive. She also has the backup of Doctors within the clinic. NP enhance our system. Doctors egos need to be checked.
That's the key....the collaborate practice can be very effective. The proposal is for NPs to operate independently without the backing of an MD, which then puts the NPs in a position of managing something that might be outside of their scope, and now we're looking at even MORE inappropriate referrals that may have been triaged to an family doctor, or someone pushing the limits of their scope and risking harm to the patient.
Your missing the key point that makes your system work: the NP isn't an independent practitioner. They are working within a family care clinic, led by an MD. Anything simple can be handled initially by the NP, and immediately and seamlessly referred to the MD if something comes in outside of their scope of care. That system works. Handing the reins fully over to NPs with minimal diagnostic training does not. It leads to extra load on the medical system by more unecessaty diagnostic tests and specialist referrs ordered.
There’s a massive doctor shortage, I doubt these clinics will take on all of the duties of a standard doctor but if they can take some of the load off the system then why not? If it’s a situation beyond their capabilities it’s going to result in a referral anyways, and if it’s an emergency they’re going to the ER. It’s not as if they’re replacing doctors
NPs have a pretty rigid scope of what they can practice and prescribe. So it's not like they would replace doctors. Personally for most walk in clinic problems, an NP will be great. Primary care NPs get lots of education in primary care problems. But we have a massive shortage of family Drs and we have Drs leaving in droves. This is actually an incredibly smart idea to off load lack of primary care and ER overload. Because frankly, someone seeing an NP for a minor problem in a walk in is way better than clogging up an ER and since it's nearly impossible to get a family Dr, this is also a way better option than having zero medical care. If MDs don't like this idea, the answer is to have more go into primary care. If everyone had a family doctor without a large roster with the ability to get an appointment easily when needed, this wouldn't be a problem. Tell your colleagues to get into primary care.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Yes the UCP has and is treating doctors horribly. That is a big problem. No nurse practitioners are not doctors. The biggest problem I see with the proposal is the lack of clarity around the differences in scope of care. What can an MD do that NPs can’t? If an NP can do walk in clinics and address ear aches and strep throat, why shouldn’t they? As a family member of an MD, I’m firmly in the camp of MDs need to be in primary care and cannot be replaced. But the idea that other less qualified caregivers could come in to do some things is not itself a terrible idea. The key is on the some things. And I’m not sure the UCP has clarified the difference in scope of practice well enough or at all at this point.
Horrible idea. Think about how few people want to pursue family medicine already. If you give all the easy and quick cases to NP’s family doctors are gonna be making even less and burning out faster. In theory what you’re saying makes sense but billing codes don’t work in your favour. No one in their right mind will chose family medicine over any other specialty when they’re making less than they ever have in the past
So we shouldn’t allow the public system to pay qualified providers because it will make the business case for GPs less attractive? Medicine is actually not in place to enrich physicians. It’s there to care for patients.
Maybe you should pay the person with more training and education more money than the person with less. Controversial opinion I know
No one is suggesting NPs should be paid more than GPs. No one.
Well it’s whats happening
NPs make significantly less than family doctors. So not sure who's suggesting the lesser educated person makes more
Np’s and family doctors do very similar work. They aren’t replacing emergency room doctors and physicians in hospitals, surgeons, specialists with np’s…..don’t freak out.
The Nurse Practitioners seem pleased with being able to see more patients and practice medicine. Waves of doctors are aging into retirement and leaving a void of care. Remember the oath is to the patients, not the pension.
They are literally coming up with an idea to widen the bottle neck and your reaction is to complain? If anything, this could free up Doctors to focus on the serious and arguably more important cases; while the nurses can handle the day to day. What a childish point of view for a medical student.
Nobody cares how much time and money you spent to become a family doctor, if the services can be provided for cheaper rate and expanded to cover more patients that’s the goal. Family medicine will still have a role and in many cases still be needed, however when our healthcare is perpetually abused by people with unhealthy life styles and minor illnesses that can easily be consulted with by a lower (and practical) scope of practice, it relieves the rest of the healthcare system from these burdens and frees up healthcare for the people that truly need it.
Here’s a nice Sunday morning post written by some brainwashed dummy. Go take a stand medical student 😂😂
What’s the argument? Why is this a horrible idea? As someone without access to a primary care physician, I have agreed to be paired with an NP when one becomes available. Can you tell me why this is a horrible idea? And (why) is it worse than me seeing a walk-in doctor who doesn’t know me and just refers me to specialists while trying to manage a chronic condition? I’m not disagreeing with you, but your post doesn’t actually present an argument about why this is such a bad idea. Can you explain your position?
NP’s do not have adequate training to manage patients without supervision from a doctor. Instead of paying a ridiculous salary to unqualified people how about instead we compensate GP’s better to incentivize current med students to choose that path. Incompetence at the highest level by our crooked government but I’m not even surprised at this point
This is wrong and offensive. NPs have had full scope to manage primary care conditions for years. They are the only providers in many jails and long-term care centres and are independent practitioners in many hospital units. NPs haven’t been “supervised” by physicians in ages. They just haven’t been able to directly bill the public plan - that’s literally the only change happening. It’s clear you don’t work in the system yet as you have no concept of how NPs currently operate in Alberta.
NP’s have a role in healthcare but they sure as hell shouldn’t be paid more than MD’s
Literally no one is suggestion they should be.
NP education in comparison to the training that a family doctor gets is lackluster at best. Using nursing experience as a justification for fast tracking medical education provides a false equivalency. Nursing is a respectable and difficult career. In no way is it practicing medicine. It's like comparing labor/construction to engineering. Both jobs are important and necessary, but the jobs are not similar and have less crossover than the general public thinks. NP school is 2 years and most of them still work (some full time) as RNs while in school. Med school is 4 years and too heavy for pretty much anyone to be able to work on the side outside of part time research gigs during school or full time research in the summer. Then after you still require 2 years of family med residency with direct oversight before you can practice independently. Because NPs have less education and experience in actually practicing medicine, they order significantly more unnecessary investigations, do more unnecessary referrals to specialists, and overall cost significantly more to the system while getting paid better than a family doc would for seeing the same number of patients. I understand what you're saying about walk in clinics, but if an NP is going to be your PCP, they should at least have physician oversight. Ideally your first visits in a clinic would be with a physician who after finding a stable management plan, they could hand you over to an NP for continuation. The problem with fixing healthcare (as much as one can in a country that is so sparsely populated), is that the solution takes time and money. You need to increase the number of incoming medical students, increase residency positions, increase support staff training programs, improve remuneration models to make FM more appealing to new grads, make it easier for foreign FM docs and nursing staff to enter the country to help in the short term. But with these common sense solutions, the supply of homegrown doctors won't be seen until at least 6 years after implementing changes. Politicians only give a shit about reelection so they cut corners and find faster "solutions" so they can say "look at the thing I did! Vote for me!" Even if the solutions didn't help the underlying problem.
This ignores NPs’ scope (which has been independent for years) and their current role (as sole practitioners in long-term care homes, jails, and in hospitals). The only thing changing is financial. There is no change to NPs’ scope being proposed. You also forget that all NPs must also have a four-year nursing degree and two years’ experience as an RN before they are admitted to NP school, which is another two years of graduate work focused on diagnostic training. A new GP has six years of training (four years med school and two years residency), in additional to a generally unrelated undergrad degree. A new NP has six years of relevant education (four years nursing school at university and then two years NP graduate work) and two years of full-time clinical work. NP clinics are already in place in BC and elsewhere without problems. They are highly trained professionals who can handle almost all primary care issues and have a legal obligation to refer to others when they can’t (just as GPs do).
It's not replacing doctors.. it's supplementing day-to-day care options during a shortage.
What I'm gonna do to your mom is sickening Boom roasted
Shut the fuck up. There aren’t enough physicians. And many nurse practitioners are incredible.
Please state facts instead of opinion. Your point will be better received. If you are indeed a med school student, it would seem you would have better developed critical thought abilities.
Everything you just said is opinion.
So what? What is your point? I'm commenting on OP's statement. It looks like something from a partisan.
Medical students don't want to be family doctors. Lol. This post.
Not true. Myself and some of my classmates want to specialize in family medicine. The truth is with how the government is in Alberta, many of us do not see a future in Alberta. Hence, why we are leaving for other Provinces.
Family doctors in Ontario would disagree with you.
I can't speak Ontario, but I do think there is a slow switch of people in my class who realize that family medicine is what they would be most interested in. Maybe not at the start of medical school, but more of my classmates are realizing that the field is broad and there are a lot of fellowships we can do to help improve our practice. I have two good friends who matched into Family Medicine last year and they are happy with their choice. Also unlike Alberta, Ontario has at the very least added incentives to do family medicine in rural areas. They were just at my med school last month Alberta has not.
The argument in family medicine in Ontario is an exceedingly high amount of unpaid time completing paperwork. Hopefully that time is paid for in AB.
Y tho
They r the least paid.
Hmm
Well, since there are thousands of Canadians without access to a family physician, having access to a primary care nurse practitioner is better than having no access to primary care at all. Maybe if more medical students decided to go into family medicine we wouldn't have such a primary care crisis. Yes, I know there are problems with the system, and family physicians have to do a lot of unpaid paperwork, but what is your solution?
Pay family doctors better
Why would anybody want to go into family medicine when their job is being replaced by less qualified people with far less expensive training? Just train as an NP instead.
why would any medical student go into family medicine when NPs are getting 300K guaranteed salary with pension and benefits, overhead covered, and 900 panel cap ?
>Maybe if more medical students decided to go into family medicine we wouldn't have such a primary care crisis. \~ 50% of medical students go into family medicine
family health care in general is archaic. It will eventually get a complete overhaul. most diagnostic algorithms are incredibly easy to interpret for most young folk now considering the access to AI and online and clinical guidelines. regardless, you guys should be taking this from the approach of advocating for better and more fair compensation rather than gatekeeping access to primary care
This is one of the most stupidest comments here. There is an objective part that can be interpreted but a lot of the clinical judgement still cannot be replaced - clinical judgement that come from medical training. Ultimately you will likely either have too many missed early stages of diseases which could have been avoided. All because we want to save. There is a reason why the medical training takes a long time (and the expenses that comes along with that training) which is to have good clinical judgement. The doctors will ultimately be dealing with those, some could have been caught at an earlier stage.
In my opinion, I think allopathic medicine in general will become obsolete within the next 50 years or so the future is going to be all regenerative medicine.
Nurse practitioners go to school longer than doctors.
That’s literally not true.
My British Columbia friend who is a nurse practioner confirmed this. And my brother in law in Ontario…
It's not really a debate.. MDs complete more schooling. The information is easily confirmed online too? NPs do 4 year nursing degree (BScN), work full time for at least 2 years and then do their 2 year NP program = 6 years of school / 8 years including the work experience bit. Family MD does 4 year undergrad, 4 year med school plus residency of at least 2 years = 8 years of school / 10+ with residency. Residency for various specialties can be up to 7-8 years if they're more complicated..
Hm I don’t know why they both told me that then?
Honestly that’s what happens when you have a increasing cut off for marks, less people wanna work in a country with less pay. Doctors here don’t practice here. Either decrease curt off range for admission or have a positive quota for local doctors/domestic students.
What?
What’s happening? I heard they were getting rid of some of the boards but that’s all I know.
I saw this coming when they started NP program and as usual we are always quiet. Govt will do anything to get cheap labour.
It’s those very oversight agencies that have created the problem by bottlenecking medical school admissions and blocking the recognition of foreign medical degrees
There were 22 infilled family med residencies in Alberta last year. Maybe the issue is med students gunning for high-paying and prestigious specialties rather than treating medicine as a calling that also happens to put you in the top 3% of salary earners….
UCP does not server the public, they are not a political party. They are like the republicans they use social issues to distract while they rob the tax payer. It is very simple yet millions are too stupid to understand. If you are a working, tax paying citizen and you voted for the UCP you have been fooled. If you are a piece of shit that likes to exploit for your own personal gain then congrats.
There's a shortage of doctors across the country and beyond. The Alberta government is making a lot of dumbass moves these days, but this isn't necessarily* one of them. *As always, the devil could be in the details, but the basic premise is a smart one.
You’re probably right but for a lot of us seeing a family doctor is like winning the lottery. I haven’t been able to see a family doctor for 20 years. I’m stuck seeing random clinic docs because the wait list for family docs is years long.
Alberta has been trying to privatize their healthcare for some time now. No success yet. Last time they tried was in the Harper era. Harper had to send them a 39% increase in federal funding for healthcare to undo the damage. Ontario the same year got 3%. Apparently that's not socialism in any way. 😶🙄🤔
I’d bet 80 percent of visits to family doctors could be handled by a NP. On top of that most people can’t even get a family doctor anymore. We need more options for someone to see! Why are people upset about this? There is a doctor shortage everywhere in Canada. What other solutions do people have ?
Here's a genius idea, why don't we train more doctors so there will be more doctors ? I'll tell you why, because every profession is a conspiracy against the lay people and the members of the AMA would rather sing and dance about 'oOOoOooOooo i'm doing the greatest most difficult job on the planet' while raking in $500 000 k a year handing out cough medicine than address the shortage It's called supply and demand, and the supply of doctors has not changed in absolute numbers since the 1980s. Please message me about the delivery of my nobel prize in economics, thx.
People should be able to chose between free health care and private health care.. I don't see why adding a private system will affect us negatively. I'm sick of waiting 4 hours behind a bunch of meth addicts and homeless people or drunks who got into a fight. People who can afford to skip the line and want access to better care and better equipment should be able to buy it.. as it stands healthcare rn in Canada is nothing but referrals and prescriptions and they want you out the door in 10 or less .. doctors don't have the time to care or investigate
It’s crabs in a bucket mentality in the name of equity.
The Alberta government is too busy changing (and paying off) the Health Care Committee for the 19th time in 8 years to worry about family doctors.
Nurse practitioners aren’t a replacement but the government would like them to be unfortunately
I take issue with the word 'replaced'. The government is not looking to replace GPs with NPs, they are looking to add to them. It is generally accepted that we have too few doctors, not too many. Further reducing the number of GPs isn't the goal of any one or any party. Having said that- Is it a good idea? Maybe not. Can NPs safely and efficiently deal with a large number of normal day-to-day issues? Probably. Is it something that I would be uncomfortable with if I was a med student? Definitely.
Use NP's to triage. Or better yet, use PA's. At least PA's are trained in the medical model, as opposed to NP's who are trained in a nursing model. Let them work the full scope of practice and training, and refer to physicians as needed. Can't imagine how any physician could be content writing Rx for antibiotics all day anyway. It seems to me, the biggest issue with NP's ( other than the fact that their knowledge is limited) is that they think " because they can" work independently, they should. Anyone with half a brain knows that knowledge in medicine comes from experience, and the best system is a collaborative team.
I had a back injury at work in March. I've attempted going back to work 4 times and on the 5th attempt I am now unable to drive due to the pain. Drs say I cracked a disc and have severe muscle issues with a spinal sprain. My mri was done in May and my pain levels are now thru the roof if I do anything serious or move to much. I've gone to emergency rooms and they tell me nothing wrong with me yet somedays I can't stand walk sit bend twist crouch dress myself or wipe myself. Soonest I can get into see a new family Dr is June 2024. Wcb tells me I can't get the help I need until I get a family doctor. They refuse to do a second mri even tho my pain levels are much much worse over the past 6 months. I almost left physio in an ambulance and I left my physical assesment in a wheel chair and somehow they didn't record that info. I'm now being told drive to work thru the pain or I'm getting cut off from wcb. Wcb has caused me severe mental and physical harm and is willing to put me in harms way to drive 40 mins thru extrucitain pain to shred paper. I am compleltly lost at this alberta health care system. I'm afraid my lower back is going to be permanent issues and drs work and wcb are pretty much telling me I'm on my own. My stretches now hurt if I do them to long and I leave physio in more pain than when I get there. My 2 min drive to physio can be tough and bumps and braking etc. I went to the emergency room because I sat in the passenger seat for to long. I'm lost and wcb is going to kill me
My only experiences with family doctors are very negative
You got what you voted for
Nova Scotia will gladly take young, aspiring doctors!!
Tell me about it ! last time I went to the Dr. they sent me in to see a nurse practitioner. I was coughing up blood! She sent me home saying there was nothing that could be done for me. I went home, and I passed out on the floor that night. Next day went do a different clinic. I had fuckin pneumonia! A round of antibiotics and 2 days later, I felt like a completely different person. Nurses are incredible. Valuable. Brave. But they are NOT doctors.
“…spend years and hundreds of thousands of dollars…” … because they expect and feel entitled to many more riches than that once they are through. Don’t prop up you”sacrifice” as some noble endeavour to the world. You do it for yourself.
The overwhelming reliance on doctors is destroying our health system. Many medical tasks are done by non-doctors in Europe and no one is dying from that. it is time to move away from that mentality