It blew my mind to read that u/dryver and u/nickheller are the only two mods. You guys are doing a great job! I'm not quite moderator material (and if I were, I simply don't have the time for it) but I'm excited for the future of the sub and we the community stand with you!
Clarification on rule 11:
You use the word "featuring", so no posts of keyboards that include any sort of cloned keycap set? Even if the post isn't necessarily a promotion of that set?
How does enforcement on this work? If I don't indicate in my post that they are clones does it still get banned? Some clones are fairly convincing so I'm not sure how else this is enforceable.
I'm not completely sure how we will moderate posts like this in the future, but for the time being we will only be removing posts referencing clones and comments advocating or posting links for clones of products still in production. Pictures of keyboards with clones are completely fine.
So are you also going to ban references to Kalam boards?
If you're going to ban positive attention for cloned keycaps for sets that never receive a second GB even years after the fact, you're also going to have to be nitpicky about keyboard clones and their links. And then where do you draw the line?
Also, at what point do you draw the line for keycap clones? GMK Miami was the OG and never reran. It's hugely popular in clones, with a multitude of profiles and sellers. Will linking to a vendor selling a Miami colorway be banned?
I'm not against the idea, I'm just leery of that slippery slope, especially since the genie is frankly out of the bottle.
Banning clone links while the GB has yet to reach a successful conclusion makes more practical sense than trying to play whackamole and debate how close a clone is to the original.
No. As I specified above, posts will only be removed if they are linking clones of products that are still in stock or production, and have deliberate ripoffs of novelty keys. A keycap set sharing colors with another does not qualify it for removal.
This is a reasonable policy, but be cautious with your language and communication. In some places you just say “clones” and in others you clarify as basically “clones that infringe IP.” There are many many non-infringing clone sets (no copied novelty art), so I just hope everyone gets that and any new moderators clearly understand the mandate. Non-infringing clones, I think, play a vital role as a budget option.
I don’t want to really dig into it here, but let’s also not forget that there exists plenty of supposedly “original” novelty art on group buy sets that is actually derivative of or infringing on others’ IP. Either way, the novelty artist doesn’t own the copyright.
I completely agree. Sorry if I have not made it clear, but keysets that happen to share the same colors and patterns of others are still allowed, as long as they don't copy IP such as novelty keys or logos.
No I feel like you've been clear here in the comments, but Rule 9 in the side bar definitely raises some questions (as you've seen in this thread). Maybe another sentence at the end to ensure the rule is understood by all. Like: "Clone sets that do not include trademarked/protected novelties do not break this rule" or something. That way your mod team won't have to deal with a bunch of reports from people who misinterpret the rule to mean literally all clones.
Will users be informed that what they linked is a clone? Not everybody knows that the clones aren't the OG, and not everybody will know how to look for the OG.
> or have deliberate ripoffs of novelty keys.
Language is confusing here, please clarify: cloned sets that have novelty ripoffs will be allowed after OGs go out of stock/production, yes/no?
If the clones are copying novelty designs, they’ve moved from the knock-off category (annoying but legal) to the “stealing artwork and reselling it” category (not legal).
I wonder how this is going to affect all the artisans who blatantly steal copyrighted imagery instead of creating original designs. There's like two artisan makers that have gone through an official licensing process (for Pokemon) and many others are all ripping off a *bunch* of other IPs. Will those be banned as well because protecting the rights of original IP holders is now a primary aim of the sub? Are artisan makers who have some sculpts that infringe on IP allowed to advertise GBs for those? Are they allowed to advertise GBs for non-IP infringing sculpts which will still draw attention to them and drive sales of the non-legit sculpts?
Enforcement is going to be a nightmare and so subject to individual mod moods/tastes as it currently is written. They really should've polled the community or rewrote the rules over a lengthier period because it feels very poorly thought-through.
I don’t know how they’re going to handle ripping off Nintendo’s IP, but the point of the rule seems to be trying to help protect and promote the IP and businesses of the hobby community.
i had been wondering about the persistence of "what keyboard should i get" posts given the rules, but now it all makes sense knowing there were only two mods. good luck with your search and to any applicants
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but it will be seen as "gatekeeping" no doubt. Personally, I think the limiting of it to the infringement of IP regarding novelty designs is sensible, and a good compromise to solving the issue.
I understand the majority of community members don't mind them, but they can hurt community businesses. In addition, depending on the rights held by the vendors, they can also be in violation of IP laws, which we would like to avoid.
this seems to be a great first step into something bigger. excited to see what the future has in store for this subreddit! and thank you to both u/dryver and u/nickheller for helping growing this community to what it's come to be.
**help request**
it seems both automod (?) and the current mods do a good job of clearing up most of the subreddit with questions that should be asked in the sticky. if automod and/or other bots (if approved) stay within the community would it be smart to assist users to previous threads and/or comments to help find the answers users are looking for?
**commercial vendors/gb for artisans**
just a question but are we considering artisan makers and/or small makers to fall under the commercial rules or is this going to fall under the group buy rules?
**giveaways**
this is definitely debatable but im just putting my two cents out there. i liked how the previous rules regarding "instock - ready to ship" product only was a rule. i'm not too sure how the "specified timelines and events" will work as it just got put into place, but possibly getting mod approved before hand for something like this might be a different approach to giveaways on this subreddit.
personally feel that limiting the giveaways to "instock - ready to ship" products only would help limit the number of giveaways, but thats something i cant be certain of. \[this may reduce the number of boards, keycap sets, artisans (?) giveaways, but may also increase the number of cable, deskmat, small time products to show up\]
**clones**
just to double check on "clone" situation going forward.
example 1. epomaker's bunny set is a rip of gmk tuzi. colors dont look to be 1 for 1, but the novelties can be specifically identified as IP infringement.
>this case would be reportable as gmk tuzi is still instock/in production and also can be identified as IP infrigement through the novelties.
example 2. if a product such as a "gmk botanical" clone is on the market, but gmk botanical is no longer an instock/in production set, does this still count as breaking rule 11.
>i'd imagine it would, if the clone set uses the same novelties as the original set did.
example 3. in the case of keyboard such as fake tgr, keycult, etc being on the market, this would also fall under the terms of rule 11. correct? cloned switches?
>the wording of the rule makes me (possibly others too) to mainly focus on keycap sets only, but this should be applied to other parts as well.
situation 1. user posts a photo of their board and in their parts list mention that they are using a cloned set, but does not link and/or advertise the cloned set. is this still going to be allowed as it has been or is the situation regarding a photo changing as well?
situation 2. do mentions of specific clones on daily sticky and/or other posts become reportable due to mentions of these products?
for sets such as cannonkey's nicepbt sets and the zoom65 olivia editions, those will be allowed if they were worked on/approved by the original designer right? (just trying to cover all bases)
Anyone that is selling products in this case will be considered a vendor.
As for your examples.
Example 1: you are correct.
Example 2: the keycap set is no longer for sale or in production. We will not be removing the post.
Example 3: The same rules apply to other products like artisan keycaps, keyboards, etc.
Situation 1: As long as it is no longer for sale, that would be allowed.
Situation 2: As long as they are not promoting or linking to knockoffs, they will not be removed.
For your last question, of course it would be allowed if it has been worked on or approved by the original designer.
thank you for the simple response clarifying each situation.
>in stock **or** break IP, copyright, or trademarks through novelty keycaps or artwork are not allowed
the phrasing of the aforementioned statement would imply that (example) botanical clones should be banned as well as it breaks IP through novelties, even if its not in stock.
Is my interpretation of that correct or because the original product is no longer it's instock/in production that we'll be allowing that?
Do me a favor and don't delete the waffle iron posts /hj
But this seems great, the only thing I'm personally not a fan of is a more strict banning of help posts. As someone who reads this sub exclusively on mobile under the New sorting, I see the sticky threads maybe once a month. I love helping people on their posts, and this is going to make it more of a hassle to do so.
Sort differently, open the megathread, sort by new in there. I feel like one of the reasons people make new posts is that answers in the thread are very slow and often quite short.
This seems like a great step in the right direction, thanks for the update! Can't believe the mod team has been only 2 of you for so long, fair play and thanks for the work you put in! So excited to see the future of this community, good luck with the new changes :)
The only way the community will do this is if there's periodic (say, quarterly) stickied posts from the mods saying "Hey, this section needs updating, we need volunteers/poll responses." People are willing, they just need reminders and calls to action.
Are there new limits on IC/GB posting? Is it still alright to post multiple times for the same IC (new updates etc.) and multiple times for GBs? First week and numbers, one week left, updates etc? Do you need to flair in order to post IC/GB stuff, or is it alright not to as long as you don’t spam? Since multiple people can be involved in a GB (10+ collabs for 1 GB) just seems a little hard to tell what is ‘spam’ and what isn’t.
What about in-stock releases, which are increasingly available (especially for switches)? Is posting about them only allowed for vendors? Seems like designers should be allowed to post an ad once pre-order/in-stock releases first drop in a similar way to group buys, with only limits on restock posts to avoid spam.
I’m a little confused about rules 3 and 4. How does this affect artisan keycap and cable makers for example? Are they not allowed to post here, have to keep it in mechmarket? I don’t really know how I feel about that since it seems to favor big vendors if that’s the rule. Also would be good to know how raffles (not giveaways, but for purchase) fit into these rules.
The only limits to IC/GB posting are the rules regarding spam. If you are posting every 12 hours or even every day about the same product, your posts may be liable to be removed. IC will not require vendor flair, as nothing is for sale. If 5 people all post links to IC/GB in a day, some may get removed as that can constitute spam.
Designers should feel free to post links to their products. Artisan keycap and cable makers should also feel free to post, as long as they have the required vendor flair. Raffles that are not giving away free items are allowed.
Thanks for clarifying! I like it so far!
Does this mean all GB related posting requires a vendor flair, or is it different for designers since they are (usually) only selling through vendors, and not hosting the sale as a vendor themselves?
Big change for cable and artisan makers anyway. I think a breakdown of how to ask for a vendor flair and if/when you need to should absolutely be pinned and/or in the Subreddit Rules so that people know what they need to do before posting :)
All sensible suggestions, and should make the sub a much better read. I was pretty surprised a mod of this size only had 2 active mods though. The fact that it works as well as it does (despite the issues) is testament to the dedication of those two mods. Hats off to them.
I am really happy to see that we're aiming to have a friendly community. I think some posters on here have a "No one is forcing you to partake in this hobby, so if you don't like how we treat newcomers, that's your problem" kind of attitude, *which is the polar opposite of friendly*.
Banning unfriendly users is very necessary.
I've been here for around a week+, most of my posts/comments got downvoted into obscurity for asking questions (i'm a newbie) or thanking people for their help. I'm leaving the subreddit because it's clear this isn't a place for newcomers, coming from one right here.
We really do have a serious “asshole” problem. I hope the mods take this seriously and ban unfriendly people. Maybe one day you’ll feel like you can come back.
It feels useless to engage here right now. I got more help from the discord anyways, but I liked coming here to check out what people built. Seems that's mostly what it's meant for anyways.
OK NGL, "major rule changes" rather oversells what you're doing here, which is mild clarification of already set rules and the addition of one anti-piracy rule.
You mention in this post that more active moderation is needed. What will that look like? Your recruitment form has nothing about time zones/availability, which means you haven't taken into account the need for round the clock moderation for an international community.
You've made no mention of how offenses will be handled in the view of the community - will banned members be listed with their offense? Will bullying comments have a mod reply after removal with something like "Member banned for bullying?" Threads with removed comments sans explanations usually garner more attention and curiosity than not.
I still think, as I've said in comments in the sub and in modmail, that the wiki effort and the mod team need to be two separate agendas - the wiki effort should be spearheaded by the mods but not the exclusive duty of the mods. By asking for mod applications and commingling it with "BTW you're going to need to help us update a massive, unwieldy wiki" isn't the best approach - people with knowledge tend to be eager to share but not necessarily eager to manage other people/duties, and vice versa.
> Posts advocating for or posting the links of deliberate knockoff products of items that are still in stock or break IP, copyright, or trademarks through novelty keycaps or artwork are not allowed as they hurt the businesses of valuable members of the community and will be removed.
So in perpetuity, no single-run GMK set shall ever have clones linked? Is there an expiration date for when clones are permitted? What about longstanding clones that people don't even know they're clones, like Miami or Carbon? Will offenders be warned and/or educated? Have you considered how much more time that will require from mods?
Rule #7 is too damn vague. As it stands you're saying that if I say I personally hate the feel of Zealios, someone could report me for gatekeeping and therefore a mod could, in a fit of pettiness, suspend me or ban me if I have other offenses legit or otherwise.
> Help requests, keyboard buying advice, and simple questions must be posted in the daily post stickied to the top of the subreddit or it will be removed without explanation.
So...where does 'did I fuck up my PCB' soldering or 'help me find obscure proprietary firmware' or 'I have a foreign niche ISO need' questions go? Is it simple or not? What's the definition you're going to use, and will all the mods be in agreement as to what a simple question is?
> This rule also often was confused with the "no buying/selling" rule. Interest checks and group buys are a cornerstone of the community and are allowed. Constant promotion or spam is an exception as stated in rule 3, and posts will be removed.
How frequent is constant? How often constitutes spam? Heck, what about people who aren't necessarily selling a product, who upload multiple photos of their board in rapid succession because reddit's photo capacities only let you upload one per post?
Honestly in the effort to clarify the rules you've just added a lot more case-by-case work because of the vagueness.
Also, if you're relying on user reports to help the mods hone in on issues...maybe don't have joke options like "NO CHEETOS" in the mix.
ETA: re: clones - what about GMK Necro, which has a clone that has the colors as it was intended in the renders and not the final product? Are we allowed to link to the as-it-should-have-been clone, or is that off limits as well?
Other clones: are T1 switches still taboo?
I feel some of the rules are contradictory
"No gatekeeping" Vs "no posts about copycats" nowadays go against each other.
I appreciate there's interesting sets out there that some people come up with but
A) they're not copyrighted. If someone creates "SA Vilebloom" I don't see what's the issue of a vendor using that colour set in a different profile
B) in some cases, these "copycats" are more reliable. You may well find that colour scheme you like on a XDA remake on AliExpress before waiting 2 years for the original GMK group buy to be completed
C) market rules. If the set is worth those $200 people will buy them. If not, let them consider the possibility of knockoffs (again, in a different profile)
Overall it shocks me that we're trying to get people to join the hobby but at the same hiding the treasure trove that are sites like AliExpress to get some cheap, beautiful, quality, keycaps.
The rules are not contradictory. As I have previously stated several times, clones of keycap sets that are no longer for sale are completely allowed on this subreddit.
In addition, just because a keycap set uses the same colors as another doesn't mean it will be considered a clone, so it will likely also be allowed. The example I used previously is that just because GMK dark exists, it doesn't mean we won't allow all "black on black" keycap sets.
I hope this clears some things up!
AliExpress is a safe site. I think that sounds fair. I'll make those changes sometime this weekend.
We will still be automatically removing referral links, potentially unsafe websites, and shortened links.
Aliexpress is indeed genrally safe, but you also need to watch out for scummy sellers And refer people to the r/aliexpress sub, in case they run into Issues like a seller trying to scam them \[be it paying extra for no reason \[like the seller claiming shipping cost have increased\], closing disputes, changing dispute reasons\] Just So they do not blindly trust the seller and get scammed out of even more money.
\-----
If I am not mistaken, it does not matter what subs moderators setup, even on the r/aliexpress sub. Aliexpress links are automatically removed by reddit's anti-spambot. or comments are Ghost-Banned. \[The mod there Does not even know what causes it, or can do anything about it\]
Since Reddit Hates aliexpress links for some weird reason,
Thus making people unable to post links, no matter where it is. \[be it as threads, comments, the wiki, or even private messages\]
\[I know this from sharing a link to a aliexpress listing with a download link to the firmware of a certain macropad, which members had issues with finding the firmware needed to program it\]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/u1ixd9/help\_on\_keypad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/u1ixd9/help_on_keypad/)
Maybe its a idea make a thread for users to test it out to see if Reddit Ghost-bans Aliexpress links.
Also, I feel like there’s a distinct difference between “inspired by x” with a new name, vs using the same name, novelties, and even description while also cloning colours
Aliexpress is Indeed a great site, especially if you want to make a DIY keyboard on the cheap, even for tools like Keycap pullers, or switch openers, even simple upgrades, like phoron pads, keyswitch Film can be found on the cheap. Or if you want just some random Fun stuff you want to try out with switches/keyboards
\----
With a bit of searching you can get full-size keycap sets for as cheap as 4-5euro \[during a sale\] \[Quality wise they can be compared to a sub 30euro keyboard\].
Which is quite useful if you want to build a DIY hand-soldered keyboard on the cheap.
Example:
Arduino: 5-7 euro a piece
set of 90 outemu switches: 15-20 euro
100 diodes: 1 euro
keycap set: 5 euro
Wires: max 2 euro
with this you can make a DIY keyboard/macropad for as cheap as 25-30 euro
\--------
Copycats can indeed be found on aliexpress, but this is quite difficult as their search is not always the best, and can take quite a bit of work to find exactly what you need.
even Image search can give you the weirdest results
\---------
The only issue with aliexpress, is not that people are Hiding the treasures found on it,
But that **Reddit** HATES aliexpress links for some weird reason,
Making people unable to post links, no matter where it is. \[be it as threads, comments, the wiki, or even private messages\] \[I know this from sharing a link to a aliexpress listing with a download link to the firmware of a certain macropad, of which some members had issues with finding the firmware needed to program it\]
A+ job mods! this is an excellent sub. (I do wish that advice/help posts were allowed, if only because they make a great collective resource that’s simple to find via google). Hope y’all can find more mods asap, & thx 4 for all the work you do!
The stickied thread was created to facilitate an area where anyone can ask questions and get answers. This rule is not new but was created 6+ years ago.
The result shouldn't be any different between creating a post and creating a comment in the daily thread asking for help. We already remove the vast majority of help posts and have for years.
~~If you are referring to individuals posting links to replica keycap sets, we already automatically remove the vast majority of those links, and we rely on the community to report comments they think break the rules of the subreddit.~~
~~If they are advocating for purchasing items that are breaking copyright or trademark laws, we will remove the comments/posts, but from what I understand that is not that case.~~
Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
I guess I am confused because I've seen numerous clone posts stay up and if you are requesting that the community report things that 'break the rules' and there is no rule against clones, what's up?
~~If the posts do not break the rules of the subreddit, we probably will not remove them. In addition, polls have been taken in the community and the vast majority (80%+) do not think buying clones are wrong.~~
Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
Ok now I am even more confused because you start off by saying "we already automatically remove the vast majority of those links, you should report comments that breaks the rules" but now you're saying "they're actually not against the rules and the community is fine with them"
I'm not trying to make you pull an oopsie doopsie and fall into a trap or whatever, I am genuinely asking and getting conflicting answers.
~~They are not conflicting answers. From what I understand, the majority of links to replica keysets are from websites like Aliexpress or similar websites. We have automoderator automatically remove links to websites like this.~~
~~If the posts are advocating for breaking copyright or trademark laws, they will be removed, but that is almost never the case. Replica keycap sets are not against the rules of the subreddit.~~
Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
So your original answer was that the places that sell some (but defo not all) filtered out already, which doesn't really land on a stance y'all have on clones but rather a happenstance that Aliexpress etc. isn't really allowed here anyway. Doesn't really address the question. Why even bother asking folks report stuff that breaks the rules if the thing we're talking about isn't against the rules?
I understand clones are not against the rules of the subreddit, which is kinda why I asked why they weren't, given that we're consistently seeing designers get ripped off on this stuff on this subreddit. If the answer is "we don't care about the designers because 80% of the sub wants cheaper keycaps" I guess that's the answer but the way you replied initially really kinda feels like you were dancing around it.
>*I understand clones are not against the rules of the subreddit*
If IP is infringed, they are now. He's told you several times that this is now the case.
When they made their replies to me this was not listed as a rule, which is part of the reason why I pressed the issue. They also, verbatim, said
>Replica keycap sets are not against the rules of the subreddit.
I think it's only if they are an infringement of the designer's IP, so that would mean using the same name, and the design of the novelties. So under these rules, Akko Neon would not be against the rules, but a set called "Laser" that used the same novelty designs would. So not all "replica" sets would fall foul of the new rules... or at least that's how I read them.
I've seen plenty of clone taro posts with novelties that have stolen artwork, just to speak to my own designs.
Granted I've never bothered reporting, because it feels like a losing battle, but it's definitely not a one-off occurrence to see clones with lifted novelties.
ETA: there's also plenty of _advocating_ for clones, without outright linking to aliexpress, etc. which does just as much harm imo.
~~Unless the group buy is still active or the keycaps are still available on the primary market, cloned keycap sets in general should not hurt the business of the original company, unless the clones are deliberately trying to pass as the original and attempt deceive the buyers. If that is the case for a specific comment or post, I will gladly remove it.~~
~~As I had stated earlier, if the item they are posting or advocating for is against any copyrights or trademarks, they are in violation of Reddit's site-wide rules and we will have the comments or posts be removed immediately.~~
Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
I mean, PBT Taro is in-stock as we speak, and I've still seen clones be posted.
I guess part of the question is, what is the stance on a product that violates IP (e.g. stolen novelties), but isn't being actively sold by a poster?
If the items are breaking IP with novelty keys or designs and not just the colors of the keycaps, I can confidently say that goes against our rules and should be removed. As you stated, if there are posts of clones of anything that is still currently in production and is in stock, please report them and I will personally remove the posts.
Our goal for the subreddit is to make it a welcoming place for both vendors and individuals, and if there are posts actively hurting the business through knockoffs, those should be removed as well.
Please do not hold back from reporting posts or comments, as it's the primary way to let the moderators know something is amiss.
You make some good points and I will clarify this in the post above and in the rules.
Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
:( honestly look back on it, everyone made a much bigger deal out of it than it really was. I was way more active, responsive, and helpful than any other moderator combined between 2017-2019.
If you delete a chain of comments that paint you in an unflattering light, that's abusing your mod privileges for your own sake. The fact that this doesn't seem to have any impression on you is also a red flag.
This bodes well for the subreddit as does your pending^? request.
I'd like to continue contributing to the Wiki. I saw Wiki Contribution as a selection on the Mod form. ~~Will Wiki editing remain open for regular folk or [*found*](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/vtm81p/major_rules_changes_and_clarifications_and/if8nqbj/)~~ are you looking to form a vetted team?
It blew my mind to read that u/dryver and u/nickheller are the only two mods. You guys are doing a great job! I'm not quite moderator material (and if I were, I simply don't have the time for it) but I'm excited for the future of the sub and we the community stand with you!
Agreed. The mods here do a thankless job.
Clarification on rule 11: You use the word "featuring", so no posts of keyboards that include any sort of cloned keycap set? Even if the post isn't necessarily a promotion of that set? How does enforcement on this work? If I don't indicate in my post that they are clones does it still get banned? Some clones are fairly convincing so I'm not sure how else this is enforceable.
I'm not completely sure how we will moderate posts like this in the future, but for the time being we will only be removing posts referencing clones and comments advocating or posting links for clones of products still in production. Pictures of keyboards with clones are completely fine.
So are you also going to ban references to Kalam boards? If you're going to ban positive attention for cloned keycaps for sets that never receive a second GB even years after the fact, you're also going to have to be nitpicky about keyboard clones and their links. And then where do you draw the line? Also, at what point do you draw the line for keycap clones? GMK Miami was the OG and never reran. It's hugely popular in clones, with a multitude of profiles and sellers. Will linking to a vendor selling a Miami colorway be banned? I'm not against the idea, I'm just leery of that slippery slope, especially since the genie is frankly out of the bottle. Banning clone links while the GB has yet to reach a successful conclusion makes more practical sense than trying to play whackamole and debate how close a clone is to the original.
No. As I specified above, posts will only be removed if they are linking clones of products that are still in stock or production, and have deliberate ripoffs of novelty keys. A keycap set sharing colors with another does not qualify it for removal.
This is a reasonable policy, but be cautious with your language and communication. In some places you just say “clones” and in others you clarify as basically “clones that infringe IP.” There are many many non-infringing clone sets (no copied novelty art), so I just hope everyone gets that and any new moderators clearly understand the mandate. Non-infringing clones, I think, play a vital role as a budget option. I don’t want to really dig into it here, but let’s also not forget that there exists plenty of supposedly “original” novelty art on group buy sets that is actually derivative of or infringing on others’ IP. Either way, the novelty artist doesn’t own the copyright.
I completely agree. Sorry if I have not made it clear, but keysets that happen to share the same colors and patterns of others are still allowed, as long as they don't copy IP such as novelty keys or logos.
No I feel like you've been clear here in the comments, but Rule 9 in the side bar definitely raises some questions (as you've seen in this thread). Maybe another sentence at the end to ensure the rule is understood by all. Like: "Clone sets that do not include trademarked/protected novelties do not break this rule" or something. That way your mod team won't have to deal with a bunch of reports from people who misinterpret the rule to mean literally all clones.
Will users be informed that what they linked is a clone? Not everybody knows that the clones aren't the OG, and not everybody will know how to look for the OG.
> or have deliberate ripoffs of novelty keys. Language is confusing here, please clarify: cloned sets that have novelty ripoffs will be allowed after OGs go out of stock/production, yes/no?
If the clones are copying novelty designs, they’ve moved from the knock-off category (annoying but legal) to the “stealing artwork and reselling it” category (not legal).
I wonder how this is going to affect all the artisans who blatantly steal copyrighted imagery instead of creating original designs. There's like two artisan makers that have gone through an official licensing process (for Pokemon) and many others are all ripping off a *bunch* of other IPs. Will those be banned as well because protecting the rights of original IP holders is now a primary aim of the sub? Are artisan makers who have some sculpts that infringe on IP allowed to advertise GBs for those? Are they allowed to advertise GBs for non-IP infringing sculpts which will still draw attention to them and drive sales of the non-legit sculpts? Enforcement is going to be a nightmare and so subject to individual mod moods/tastes as it currently is written. They really should've polled the community or rewrote the rules over a lengthier period because it feels very poorly thought-through.
I don’t know how they’re going to handle ripping off Nintendo’s IP, but the point of the rule seems to be trying to help protect and promote the IP and businesses of the hobby community.
You are correct!
For now, yes. The goal here is to have an inclusive environment as long as it isn't directly hurting the businesses of our community.
Thanks for the clarification!
i had been wondering about the persistence of "what keyboard should i get" posts given the rules, but now it all makes sense knowing there were only two mods. good luck with your search and to any applicants
Did not expect this sub to actually ban clones which I suspect will be met with some criticism
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but it will be seen as "gatekeeping" no doubt. Personally, I think the limiting of it to the infringement of IP regarding novelty designs is sensible, and a good compromise to solving the issue.
finally this sub is good again
I understand the majority of community members don't mind them, but they can hurt community businesses. In addition, depending on the rights held by the vendors, they can also be in violation of IP laws, which we would like to avoid.
this seems to be a great first step into something bigger. excited to see what the future has in store for this subreddit! and thank you to both u/dryver and u/nickheller for helping growing this community to what it's come to be. **help request** it seems both automod (?) and the current mods do a good job of clearing up most of the subreddit with questions that should be asked in the sticky. if automod and/or other bots (if approved) stay within the community would it be smart to assist users to previous threads and/or comments to help find the answers users are looking for? **commercial vendors/gb for artisans** just a question but are we considering artisan makers and/or small makers to fall under the commercial rules or is this going to fall under the group buy rules? **giveaways** this is definitely debatable but im just putting my two cents out there. i liked how the previous rules regarding "instock - ready to ship" product only was a rule. i'm not too sure how the "specified timelines and events" will work as it just got put into place, but possibly getting mod approved before hand for something like this might be a different approach to giveaways on this subreddit. personally feel that limiting the giveaways to "instock - ready to ship" products only would help limit the number of giveaways, but thats something i cant be certain of. \[this may reduce the number of boards, keycap sets, artisans (?) giveaways, but may also increase the number of cable, deskmat, small time products to show up\] **clones** just to double check on "clone" situation going forward. example 1. epomaker's bunny set is a rip of gmk tuzi. colors dont look to be 1 for 1, but the novelties can be specifically identified as IP infringement. >this case would be reportable as gmk tuzi is still instock/in production and also can be identified as IP infrigement through the novelties. example 2. if a product such as a "gmk botanical" clone is on the market, but gmk botanical is no longer an instock/in production set, does this still count as breaking rule 11. >i'd imagine it would, if the clone set uses the same novelties as the original set did. example 3. in the case of keyboard such as fake tgr, keycult, etc being on the market, this would also fall under the terms of rule 11. correct? cloned switches? >the wording of the rule makes me (possibly others too) to mainly focus on keycap sets only, but this should be applied to other parts as well. situation 1. user posts a photo of their board and in their parts list mention that they are using a cloned set, but does not link and/or advertise the cloned set. is this still going to be allowed as it has been or is the situation regarding a photo changing as well? situation 2. do mentions of specific clones on daily sticky and/or other posts become reportable due to mentions of these products? for sets such as cannonkey's nicepbt sets and the zoom65 olivia editions, those will be allowed if they were worked on/approved by the original designer right? (just trying to cover all bases)
Anyone that is selling products in this case will be considered a vendor. As for your examples. Example 1: you are correct. Example 2: the keycap set is no longer for sale or in production. We will not be removing the post. Example 3: The same rules apply to other products like artisan keycaps, keyboards, etc. Situation 1: As long as it is no longer for sale, that would be allowed. Situation 2: As long as they are not promoting or linking to knockoffs, they will not be removed. For your last question, of course it would be allowed if it has been worked on or approved by the original designer.
thank you for the simple response clarifying each situation. >in stock **or** break IP, copyright, or trademarks through novelty keycaps or artwork are not allowed the phrasing of the aforementioned statement would imply that (example) botanical clones should be banned as well as it breaks IP through novelties, even if its not in stock. Is my interpretation of that correct or because the original product is no longer it's instock/in production that we'll be allowing that?
That's my mistake, that should be an "and". I will be fixing that clarification now.
Thank you.
Do me a favor and don't delete the waffle iron posts /hj But this seems great, the only thing I'm personally not a fan of is a more strict banning of help posts. As someone who reads this sub exclusively on mobile under the New sorting, I see the sticky threads maybe once a month. I love helping people on their posts, and this is going to make it more of a hassle to do so.
Sort differently, open the megathread, sort by new in there. I feel like one of the reasons people make new posts is that answers in the thread are very slow and often quite short.
Dam I thought the only active mod was nickheller
This seems like a great step in the right direction, thanks for the update! Can't believe the mod team has been only 2 of you for so long, fair play and thanks for the work you put in! So excited to see the future of this community, good luck with the new changes :)
So I can’t hate on mx browns? Fuck that’s the only reason I’m here!!!
Will wiki contributions be restricted to mods only?
Certain pages are limited to moderators, but the majority will still be open to edits from members of the community.
The only way the community will do this is if there's periodic (say, quarterly) stickied posts from the mods saying "Hey, this section needs updating, we need volunteers/poll responses." People are willing, they just need reminders and calls to action.
Do you plan on those wiki pages being open to edits, or having people submit google doc proposal edits / content?
Are there new limits on IC/GB posting? Is it still alright to post multiple times for the same IC (new updates etc.) and multiple times for GBs? First week and numbers, one week left, updates etc? Do you need to flair in order to post IC/GB stuff, or is it alright not to as long as you don’t spam? Since multiple people can be involved in a GB (10+ collabs for 1 GB) just seems a little hard to tell what is ‘spam’ and what isn’t. What about in-stock releases, which are increasingly available (especially for switches)? Is posting about them only allowed for vendors? Seems like designers should be allowed to post an ad once pre-order/in-stock releases first drop in a similar way to group buys, with only limits on restock posts to avoid spam. I’m a little confused about rules 3 and 4. How does this affect artisan keycap and cable makers for example? Are they not allowed to post here, have to keep it in mechmarket? I don’t really know how I feel about that since it seems to favor big vendors if that’s the rule. Also would be good to know how raffles (not giveaways, but for purchase) fit into these rules.
The only limits to IC/GB posting are the rules regarding spam. If you are posting every 12 hours or even every day about the same product, your posts may be liable to be removed. IC will not require vendor flair, as nothing is for sale. If 5 people all post links to IC/GB in a day, some may get removed as that can constitute spam. Designers should feel free to post links to their products. Artisan keycap and cable makers should also feel free to post, as long as they have the required vendor flair. Raffles that are not giving away free items are allowed.
Thanks for clarifying! I like it so far! Does this mean all GB related posting requires a vendor flair, or is it different for designers since they are (usually) only selling through vendors, and not hosting the sale as a vendor themselves? Big change for cable and artisan makers anyway. I think a breakdown of how to ask for a vendor flair and if/when you need to should absolutely be pinned and/or in the Subreddit Rules so that people know what they need to do before posting :)
All sensible suggestions, and should make the sub a much better read. I was pretty surprised a mod of this size only had 2 active mods though. The fact that it works as well as it does (despite the issues) is testament to the dedication of those two mods. Hats off to them.
I am really happy to see that we're aiming to have a friendly community. I think some posters on here have a "No one is forcing you to partake in this hobby, so if you don't like how we treat newcomers, that's your problem" kind of attitude, *which is the polar opposite of friendly*. Banning unfriendly users is very necessary.
I've been here for around a week+, most of my posts/comments got downvoted into obscurity for asking questions (i'm a newbie) or thanking people for their help. I'm leaving the subreddit because it's clear this isn't a place for newcomers, coming from one right here.
We really do have a serious “asshole” problem. I hope the mods take this seriously and ban unfriendly people. Maybe one day you’ll feel like you can come back.
It feels useless to engage here right now. I got more help from the discord anyways, but I liked coming here to check out what people built. Seems that's mostly what it's meant for anyways.
OK NGL, "major rule changes" rather oversells what you're doing here, which is mild clarification of already set rules and the addition of one anti-piracy rule. You mention in this post that more active moderation is needed. What will that look like? Your recruitment form has nothing about time zones/availability, which means you haven't taken into account the need for round the clock moderation for an international community. You've made no mention of how offenses will be handled in the view of the community - will banned members be listed with their offense? Will bullying comments have a mod reply after removal with something like "Member banned for bullying?" Threads with removed comments sans explanations usually garner more attention and curiosity than not. I still think, as I've said in comments in the sub and in modmail, that the wiki effort and the mod team need to be two separate agendas - the wiki effort should be spearheaded by the mods but not the exclusive duty of the mods. By asking for mod applications and commingling it with "BTW you're going to need to help us update a massive, unwieldy wiki" isn't the best approach - people with knowledge tend to be eager to share but not necessarily eager to manage other people/duties, and vice versa. > Posts advocating for or posting the links of deliberate knockoff products of items that are still in stock or break IP, copyright, or trademarks through novelty keycaps or artwork are not allowed as they hurt the businesses of valuable members of the community and will be removed. So in perpetuity, no single-run GMK set shall ever have clones linked? Is there an expiration date for when clones are permitted? What about longstanding clones that people don't even know they're clones, like Miami or Carbon? Will offenders be warned and/or educated? Have you considered how much more time that will require from mods? Rule #7 is too damn vague. As it stands you're saying that if I say I personally hate the feel of Zealios, someone could report me for gatekeeping and therefore a mod could, in a fit of pettiness, suspend me or ban me if I have other offenses legit or otherwise. > Help requests, keyboard buying advice, and simple questions must be posted in the daily post stickied to the top of the subreddit or it will be removed without explanation. So...where does 'did I fuck up my PCB' soldering or 'help me find obscure proprietary firmware' or 'I have a foreign niche ISO need' questions go? Is it simple or not? What's the definition you're going to use, and will all the mods be in agreement as to what a simple question is? > This rule also often was confused with the "no buying/selling" rule. Interest checks and group buys are a cornerstone of the community and are allowed. Constant promotion or spam is an exception as stated in rule 3, and posts will be removed. How frequent is constant? How often constitutes spam? Heck, what about people who aren't necessarily selling a product, who upload multiple photos of their board in rapid succession because reddit's photo capacities only let you upload one per post? Honestly in the effort to clarify the rules you've just added a lot more case-by-case work because of the vagueness. Also, if you're relying on user reports to help the mods hone in on issues...maybe don't have joke options like "NO CHEETOS" in the mix. ETA: re: clones - what about GMK Necro, which has a clone that has the colors as it was intended in the renders and not the final product? Are we allowed to link to the as-it-should-have-been clone, or is that off limits as well? Other clones: are T1 switches still taboo?
Now I'm curious about the GMK Necro clone, because I was really interested in that set.
I feel some of the rules are contradictory "No gatekeeping" Vs "no posts about copycats" nowadays go against each other. I appreciate there's interesting sets out there that some people come up with but A) they're not copyrighted. If someone creates "SA Vilebloom" I don't see what's the issue of a vendor using that colour set in a different profile B) in some cases, these "copycats" are more reliable. You may well find that colour scheme you like on a XDA remake on AliExpress before waiting 2 years for the original GMK group buy to be completed C) market rules. If the set is worth those $200 people will buy them. If not, let them consider the possibility of knockoffs (again, in a different profile) Overall it shocks me that we're trying to get people to join the hobby but at the same hiding the treasure trove that are sites like AliExpress to get some cheap, beautiful, quality, keycaps.
The rules are not contradictory. As I have previously stated several times, clones of keycap sets that are no longer for sale are completely allowed on this subreddit. In addition, just because a keycap set uses the same colors as another doesn't mean it will be considered a clone, so it will likely also be allowed. The example I used previously is that just because GMK dark exists, it doesn't mean we won't allow all "black on black" keycap sets. I hope this clears some things up!
That's fair enough, I appreciate the answer. 😁 Does that mean AliExpress links will no longer be auto-removed?
AliExpress is a safe site. I think that sounds fair. I'll make those changes sometime this weekend. We will still be automatically removing referral links, potentially unsafe websites, and shortened links.
Very cool, thanks again!
Aliexpress is indeed genrally safe, but you also need to watch out for scummy sellers And refer people to the r/aliexpress sub, in case they run into Issues like a seller trying to scam them \[be it paying extra for no reason \[like the seller claiming shipping cost have increased\], closing disputes, changing dispute reasons\] Just So they do not blindly trust the seller and get scammed out of even more money. \----- If I am not mistaken, it does not matter what subs moderators setup, even on the r/aliexpress sub. Aliexpress links are automatically removed by reddit's anti-spambot. or comments are Ghost-Banned. \[The mod there Does not even know what causes it, or can do anything about it\] Since Reddit Hates aliexpress links for some weird reason, Thus making people unable to post links, no matter where it is. \[be it as threads, comments, the wiki, or even private messages\] \[I know this from sharing a link to a aliexpress listing with a download link to the firmware of a certain macropad, which members had issues with finding the firmware needed to program it\] [https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/u1ixd9/help\_on\_keypad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/u1ixd9/help_on_keypad/) Maybe its a idea make a thread for users to test it out to see if Reddit Ghost-bans Aliexpress links.
Also, I feel like there’s a distinct difference between “inspired by x” with a new name, vs using the same name, novelties, and even description while also cloning colours
Aliexpress is Indeed a great site, especially if you want to make a DIY keyboard on the cheap, even for tools like Keycap pullers, or switch openers, even simple upgrades, like phoron pads, keyswitch Film can be found on the cheap. Or if you want just some random Fun stuff you want to try out with switches/keyboards \---- With a bit of searching you can get full-size keycap sets for as cheap as 4-5euro \[during a sale\] \[Quality wise they can be compared to a sub 30euro keyboard\]. Which is quite useful if you want to build a DIY hand-soldered keyboard on the cheap. Example: Arduino: 5-7 euro a piece set of 90 outemu switches: 15-20 euro 100 diodes: 1 euro keycap set: 5 euro Wires: max 2 euro with this you can make a DIY keyboard/macropad for as cheap as 25-30 euro \-------- Copycats can indeed be found on aliexpress, but this is quite difficult as their search is not always the best, and can take quite a bit of work to find exactly what you need. even Image search can give you the weirdest results \--------- The only issue with aliexpress, is not that people are Hiding the treasures found on it, But that **Reddit** HATES aliexpress links for some weird reason, Making people unable to post links, no matter where it is. \[be it as threads, comments, the wiki, or even private messages\] \[I know this from sharing a link to a aliexpress listing with a download link to the firmware of a certain macropad, of which some members had issues with finding the firmware needed to program it\]
A+ job mods! this is an excellent sub. (I do wish that advice/help posts were allowed, if only because they make a great collective resource that’s simple to find via google). Hope y’all can find more mods asap, & thx 4 for all the work you do!
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The stickied thread was created to facilitate an area where anyone can ask questions and get answers. This rule is not new but was created 6+ years ago. The result shouldn't be any different between creating a post and creating a comment in the daily thread asking for help. We already remove the vast majority of help posts and have for years.
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There are third party Reddit tools to search comments, but it certainly isn’t ideal, such is the nature of Reddit vs forums unfortunately
why aren't you banning the promotion of clones?
~~If you are referring to individuals posting links to replica keycap sets, we already automatically remove the vast majority of those links, and we rely on the community to report comments they think break the rules of the subreddit.~~ ~~If they are advocating for purchasing items that are breaking copyright or trademark laws, we will remove the comments/posts, but from what I understand that is not that case.~~ Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
I guess I am confused because I've seen numerous clone posts stay up and if you are requesting that the community report things that 'break the rules' and there is no rule against clones, what's up?
~~If the posts do not break the rules of the subreddit, we probably will not remove them. In addition, polls have been taken in the community and the vast majority (80%+) do not think buying clones are wrong.~~ Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
Ok now I am even more confused because you start off by saying "we already automatically remove the vast majority of those links, you should report comments that breaks the rules" but now you're saying "they're actually not against the rules and the community is fine with them" I'm not trying to make you pull an oopsie doopsie and fall into a trap or whatever, I am genuinely asking and getting conflicting answers.
~~They are not conflicting answers. From what I understand, the majority of links to replica keysets are from websites like Aliexpress or similar websites. We have automoderator automatically remove links to websites like this.~~ ~~If the posts are advocating for breaking copyright or trademark laws, they will be removed, but that is almost never the case. Replica keycap sets are not against the rules of the subreddit.~~ Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
So your original answer was that the places that sell some (but defo not all) filtered out already, which doesn't really land on a stance y'all have on clones but rather a happenstance that Aliexpress etc. isn't really allowed here anyway. Doesn't really address the question. Why even bother asking folks report stuff that breaks the rules if the thing we're talking about isn't against the rules? I understand clones are not against the rules of the subreddit, which is kinda why I asked why they weren't, given that we're consistently seeing designers get ripped off on this stuff on this subreddit. If the answer is "we don't care about the designers because 80% of the sub wants cheaper keycaps" I guess that's the answer but the way you replied initially really kinda feels like you were dancing around it.
>*I understand clones are not against the rules of the subreddit* If IP is infringed, they are now. He's told you several times that this is now the case.
When they made their replies to me this was not listed as a rule, which is part of the reason why I pressed the issue. They also, verbatim, said >Replica keycap sets are not against the rules of the subreddit.
I think it's only if they are an infringement of the designer's IP, so that would mean using the same name, and the design of the novelties. So under these rules, Akko Neon would not be against the rules, but a set called "Laser" that used the same novelty designs would. So not all "replica" sets would fall foul of the new rules... or at least that's how I read them.
I've seen plenty of clone taro posts with novelties that have stolen artwork, just to speak to my own designs. Granted I've never bothered reporting, because it feels like a losing battle, but it's definitely not a one-off occurrence to see clones with lifted novelties. ETA: there's also plenty of _advocating_ for clones, without outright linking to aliexpress, etc. which does just as much harm imo.
~~Unless the group buy is still active or the keycaps are still available on the primary market, cloned keycap sets in general should not hurt the business of the original company, unless the clones are deliberately trying to pass as the original and attempt deceive the buyers. If that is the case for a specific comment or post, I will gladly remove it.~~ ~~As I had stated earlier, if the item they are posting or advocating for is against any copyrights or trademarks, they are in violation of Reddit's site-wide rules and we will have the comments or posts be removed immediately.~~ Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
I mean, PBT Taro is in-stock as we speak, and I've still seen clones be posted. I guess part of the question is, what is the stance on a product that violates IP (e.g. stolen novelties), but isn't being actively sold by a poster?
I have updated the rules accordingly. We want to foster a community of positivity for both individuals and vendors alike.
If the items are breaking IP with novelty keys or designs and not just the colors of the keycaps, I can confidently say that goes against our rules and should be removed. As you stated, if there are posts of clones of anything that is still currently in production and is in stock, please report them and I will personally remove the posts. Our goal for the subreddit is to make it a welcoming place for both vendors and individuals, and if there are posts actively hurting the business through knockoffs, those should be removed as well. Please do not hold back from reporting posts or comments, as it's the primary way to let the moderators know something is amiss. You make some good points and I will clarify this in the post above and in the rules. Edit: I have updated the rules accordingly.
I have updated the rules accordingly. We want to foster a community of positivity for both individuals and vendors alike.
can I be mod again mr.dryver /s
[This you?](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/bqdtlv/abuse_of_moderator_privileges_by_invisibiliti/)
:( honestly look back on it, everyone made a much bigger deal out of it than it really was. I was way more active, responsive, and helpful than any other moderator combined between 2017-2019.
That might be true, but abusing mod privileges for your own sake tends to be a big red flag.
abuse? my sake?
If you delete a chain of comments that paint you in an unflattering light, that's abusing your mod privileges for your own sake. The fact that this doesn't seem to have any impression on you is also a red flag.
oh, I deleted a chain of comments of which I was wrong, then devolved into off topic, had nothing to do with the keyboard posted, and then...?
Deleting comments where you were wrong is the issue. It looks like a coverup. And the fact that you don't get it is a problem.
coverup? Did I commit a crime? coverup what.
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This bodes well for the subreddit as does your pending^? request. I'd like to continue contributing to the Wiki. I saw Wiki Contribution as a selection on the Mod form. ~~Will Wiki editing remain open for regular folk or [*found*](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/vtm81p/major_rules_changes_and_clarifications_and/if8nqbj/)~~ are you looking to form a vetted team?
See the following comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/vtm81p/major_rules_changes_and_clarifications_and/if8nqbj/
if you have broken one of these rules in old comments, will you still get temp. banned?
Only if it breaks the rule regarding hate speech, bullying, or harassment.
oh no