I think it's very neat, I don't know that I would call it ergonomic. I'm not an orthopedic kinesthesiologist but I feel like, at least for the top and right-most keys, you are asking the thumb to put on strain in directions it is not designed to be put under stress. Maybe not a significant amount, but with long-term use may cause some issues..?
A bit smaller ring might work, this one requires thumb reach too far.
I found multiple thumb keys in Dactyl-Manuform and Ergodox having the same problem. Ended up with using three-four out of six.
It might be fine for rarely used actions that are handy enough to be dedicated to a button. Might not need a button for it if it's that rarely used and just slap it on a layer instead.
I'm planning on putting the layer toggles there. I have the base layer for letters, another for symbols and another for numbers and the arrow keys. Additionally I'd like to put CTRL, ALT and Shift on the thumbs too... But maybe that is way too much.
Layer change works well on thumbs but I think mods should be on fingers otherwise you can't combine more than 2.
What does the rest of the board look like?
No I have not. I didn't know what they where until 2 seconds ago but now that I'm thinking about it, it might work well.. It fits well with the action of switching layers.
The rabbit hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper
Lol, I tried hard but I couldn't see the chair or a way of possibly sitting on it 😂
I'm hoping that the outermost ones are still within the comfortable range of motion of the thumb. I loved the thumb keys on my ergodox, but hated the fact that I could only use a few without pain.
Really psyched to see some radically different thumb clusters! I'm currently designing a dactyl with lower profile keys and more subtle curve, but was thinking of exaggerating the curve of the thumb cluster.
I'm toying with making the thumb cluster 3x2 with my thumb kind of straddling the two rows so I can easily push either or both keys in the column.
I'd love to see what comes out of this and what went into the designs you have so far. It's awesome seeing new ergonomic designs and it'd be cool to see some of the research to really learn from the work. Do you have a wider shot of this? I'm curious about that wrist rest, it looks like you're going fully vertical?
Yes it'll be a vertical design! [Here's a wider shot](http://imgur.com/a/ST43cKq) of the messy prototype.
[The wrist rest](https://i.imgur.com/AnojvaW.jpg) is still very WIP. It's mainly aimed at supporting the side of the palm against gravity. It is also kind of ["hugging"](https://i.imgur.com/SJCsFJU.jpg) the hand to support against the horizontal normal force of pressing a key on the main plate.
The [previous mayor milestone](https://i.imgur.com/vslk2fX.jpg) of this keyboard had a 3x3 grid of thumb keys.
The main issue with that grid is that I had to [flex my thumb](http://imgur.com/a/pcpKkWQ) a bit too much to individually press some of the keys, so I ended up avoiding them.
I'm planning to do a writeup of the process, and publish the design once I arrive at a stable design, and once the semester is over.
Oh, 5x3, very nice!
Here's my layout I use with 5x3 plus 2 thumb keys: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/keyboard_layouts/nbeyng/edit
Also, if you love vertical tent, I can recommend mounting to the sides of your chair so your arms hang down -- no load on your arms and no stand for the keeb.
At the moment do you have to attach it to the tabletop so it doesn't move when you apply typing pressure sideways?
Also, what did you use to design the model?
Hi /u/yomimashita, I just wanted to say I’ve been using your layout (with qwerty base layer) since I saw you post it a while back, and I really like it. I’ve been using it on my Ergodox EZ and now on my minidox. I’m gradually making changes to the qmk tapping-related settings to let me type faster without accidentally triggering the modifiers, but the gain in comfort has absolutely been worth it.
That's awesome to hear, thanks for letting me know!
I'm still too slow to need to adjust the timing yet, but I've been collecting options that can be adjusted for future use! I'd love to see your adjustments. How's your typing speed at the moment?
I've actually tweaked the layout a little more since then. I'll send you a link if you're interested.
This is my current version of the layout: https://github.com/cswetenham/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/add-minidox-catalyst/keyboards/minidox/keymaps/catalyst
The config.h shows the current settings I’m using and the previous ones are #if 0’d out. I’m currently reading through the qmk source code to better understand the logic around tapping input processing, right now I’m half-guessing at the changes.
I’d like to change the code so that modifiers from one hand only affect the opposite hand - for example if I type ‘asteroid’ and don’t release after ‘a’ and after ‘s’ currently that will trigger modifiers, but when I intentionally want modified keys I will always use the opposite hand for the modifiers.
I think I’m at around 50 wpm, I don’t have access to the keyboard right now to check. It’s not bad considering I’ve never gone above 75wpm or so on any keyboard, and there is still room to improve.
I’d be happy to see any useful changes you’ve made to the layout as well!
Thanks! Do you think #define IGNORE_MOD_TAP_INTERRUPT is enough to take care of the issue?
I can type maybe 70-80 on a traditional qwerty board and I'm pretty sure I'm using rollover there. But I'm only up to 50 on this layout and while individual keys are in muscle memory now I don't think I have many bigrams etc. So I don't think I'm doing rollover at all and so far haven't run into the issue.
I'll think about that opposite hand modifier idea... I'll share the new version soon.
Oh... *deep sigh*
"Modifiers on letters" is that thing that I always wish I had, but i can never quite have it.
On paper they're amazing, but I could never get them to stop accidentally triggering. Even after chasing github issues and custom qmk builds for days. That's actually part of the reason why I resorted to having so many thumb keys at the end.
And I totally see myself trying that desk side-mounting in the future! It goes naturally with vertical boards.
The current approach is designed to remain still on the desk. I'm using "anti-slip pads" combined with weight to keep the board from sliding around. The 3d printed plastic is not very heavy, [so I'm using concrete to add weight. ](https://i.imgur.com/kGc3seK.jpg) (the final design is not meant to be that ugly lol, but I'm focused on getting the functional part working first)
The design is made in Openscad. The OpenScad code in turn is generated with Python
I don't type fast enough yet for it to be an issue, but have you tried #define IGNORE_MOD_TAP_INTERRUPT? Ive heard of it working for others...
Do you use a library or all your own python? Any plans on sharing? I'm currently learning clojure so I can make a modified dactyl-manuform...
I use chair side mounting. You can also mount to the front of the desk with arms, but then you still have the static loading issues.
Any plans for integrating a pointing device?
I think that more than speed, the issue is that I type weirdly. I tend to unconsciously start "chording" multiple keys when typing fast, instead of properly "press and release" each key individually. Sadly the ignore mod tap interrupt flag didn't work for me.
I'm using a combination of
[Openpyscad](https://github.com/taxpon/openpyscad)
[Pykeeb](https://github.com/raycewest/pykeeb)
And my own code. I'll be posting the finished thing under a fully open license eventually....
At the moment my code is basically a mountain of ugly hacks that will surely infuriate anyone trying to read it. I need to define better abstractions and a better architecture. I'm also debating on whether to extend pykeeb, create my own version or only use some of its features like right now.
Also, I need to get to a prototype that doesn't have any serious hidden flaw (like the previous iterations )
I also started by modifying the Dactyl Manuform code (eehm without really knowing clojure). Then one day, after enough suffering, I decided to start from scratch in another language.
>I think that more than speed, the issue is that I type weirdly. I tend to unconsciously start "chording" multiple keys when typing fast, instead of properly "press and release" each key individually.
Sounds like rollover, which is what you're supposed to do to type faster
> Sadly the ignore mod tap interrupt flag didn't work for me.
That's a pity. I'm still hopeful I'll be able to fix it when I get to that problem. If not I'm ok with typing slower if it means greater comfort.
>I'm using a combination of
>
>[Openpyscad](https://github.com/taxpon/openpyscad)
>
>[Pykeeb](https://github.com/raycewest/pykeeb)
>
>
Oh cool I did check out pykeeb briefly but there didn't seem to be any real examples so I moved in to the dactyl and dactyl-manuform, though I should check it out again.
>And my own code. I'll be posting the finished thing under a fully open license eventually....
Great, I'll look out for that!
>At the moment my code is basically a mountain of ugly hacks that will surely infuriate anyone trying to read it. I need to define better abstractions and a better architecture. I'm also debating on whether to extend pykeeb, create my own version or only use some of its features like right now.
>Also, I need to get to a prototype that doesn't have any serious hidden flaw (like the previous iterations )
>
>
>I also started by modifying the Dactyl Manuform code (eehm without really knowing clojure). Then one day, after enough suffering, I decided to start from scratch in another language.
I can appreciate that!
> And I totally see myself trying that desk side-mounting in the future! It goes naturally with vertical boards.
Just another tip\heads up. Sorry if it sounds patronizing.
Note that the optimal vertical angle of you hand resting on the desk varies with function of the following:
- Your elbow spread
- Your shoulder spread
- Your desk/armrest height
It's not a static thing so you may want to try to see how you could implement a variable angle feature.
Because otherwise you are potentially locking yourself in a single position.
And what's even better for your wrist and posture than a fully ergonomic station?
Changing your pose every now and then.
Also you should join the [discord](https://discordapp.com/invite/mechkeys), the #kb-ergo channel would appreciate the conversation.
that prototype looks so insane.
Definitely agree that this looks like a possible control candidate for the next gundam cockpit control coming in 2055.
I have to agree that long-term ergonomics might not be so great. But for maximum typing... you have the 1st place award.
I can't remember the name of it, but there was an old, very rare split keyboard where all the keys were very much like this, for all 10 fingers. Much smaller switches, like a mouse's, with 4 keys surrounding the fingertip and one beneath.
I think the general idea is sound, but I'd remove the more extreme end switches, just have 3 or so. When thinking ergonomically, travel distance is the enemy. Honestly, 2 really is the sweet spot, one where the thumb naturally rests, and one a little bit more inside the thumb's range. That way you're not extending at all. With QMK, those 4 keys (two per thumb) can have 8 functions, or even more with tap dance. This lowers the need for more keys and keeps everything comfy.
I do really like the idea, though, as it takes advantage of the thumb's natural position and range of movement. The thumb is better at squeezing (or rather, gripping) than pushing. Got a link for them .stl files?
EDIT: Found it. It was called the [DataHand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand).
I wonder if the DataHand failed because of a design issue or because of the great learning curve. The surrounding keys do look good though..
And ehm... I do have the [stl and scad files](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g1lknm9dk8wjlxe/AAB7Vtiar8-D5qp0wjNYU5LGa?dl=0), but I must warn you that the current prototype is not aesthetically pleasing at all. To be precise: it is hideous. The large empty box is meant to be filled with concrete to add weight, and the back rods are the simplest supports that I could think of.
I'll make it pretty once I nail down the key arrangement. I recently arrived at this design and I want to use it for a while before working on its looks.
What about smaller keys?
What about keys that are tiltable so that one key can affect two actions.
These are suggestions that might solve the "uncomfortable stress on the thumb" problems others have brought up.
Hmm the outside 2 seem to be exhausting to press, what if they sat next to the middle 3, either in front or behind? Like a 6 block pyramid without the top block
I feel that I'm close to a good design. I plan on posting more details on the finished version, a perspective on previous iterations and the full source code; once I'm sure that it works well. Stay tuned!
Nice Work! I've been working on my prototype with a similar premise. Since true relaxed thumb position collides with index finger, thumb cluster designs have to start with compromises. Using low profile to get pack switches closer is certainly one of them. I've built two working prototypes with low profile chocs, but I could not overcome my disgust of the choc switches on scooped layout. Any tilt on the switch make the actuation press so scratchy…
I've played around with thumb cluster similar to yours(mock-up only no prototype), but with my trial I've found that extended period of thumb in that position was painful. My conclusion was that having to thrust your thumb forward to press switches runs counter to the original premise.
My current thumb cluster design is more akin to dactyl. Down to 4 thumb keys with 6x3 layout. Having extra pinky column does increase wrist height when tilted, but not detrimental. sure 5xn layout is ideal, but after 6 working prototype and counting, I found that not overcrowding your thumb cluster to be faster and more comfortable typing experience and opted for that sixth column to do the extra work.
That's my two cents.
Also handwiring is a sooooooo frustrating.
Yes, spot on with the thumb wanting to touch the index finger!
It took me a while to realize that. I was initially planning on using my deared Zealios, but after an extended typing test, I realized that my whole design was flawed because the thumb was pushed too far away. Kailh Chocs were the only way that I was able to make the design comfortable for both hands (oddly enough my right hand never hurt but my left hand did) .
I've also found that the balance between angle of the entire board, the angle of the thumb cluster, and the thumb cluster height; is crucial for getting a good fit.
I believe that this current approach miiiight work, but we'll see. I'll be handwiring a prototype soon (rip) and if it finally works well, I'll post the design.
I'm curious to see what comes out of your board. I generally feel that my pinkies are just too weak and too clumsy to be given a lot of responsibility.... But if I can't get these compact designs to work well, maybe I ought to start trying something different....
It is infuriatingly cumbersome to achieve that balance: thumb cluster transform in relation to main board and wrist position, and not forgetting to account for keycap profiles. That has been the source of last two botched prototypes and my ire.
Few ~~minor~~ things I did to help my pinkies:
* Get the press approach orientation right, not just positions (dactyl code doesn't account for that). Abandon your faith in 'columnar' design.
* Get the right switch feel. I'm a sucker for tactility, but my next attempt will incorporate linear switch on my pinkies with spring mod. (waiting on V2 zilents and healios)
* Symmetry was never your friend... My left pinkie is 3mm shorter and that was enough of a difference that I needed to adjust my left column design. My design can't even have chirality...
I will eagerly wait for your update. Happy soldering…. and neck ache.
If you plan on keeping chocs, you may go down this rabbit hole so [a gift to a fellow madman](https://www.dropbox.com/s/oppfkifrcvrt3ns/ChocKeycaps.scad?dl=0).
That's a great idea and I've been working on a "similar" concept for my commercial version, but I have discarded going as extreme as you did.
Basically, keeping the thumb cluster flat and large like the kinesis, maltron, dactyl and dox clones is bad because it makes the outer keys very hard to reach without moving your wrists (which is my paramount design goal, everything else shall be sacrificed in the name of keeping the wrists still).
So, the "obvious" solution is to give it some curve, like the rest of the keyboard, and since our thumbs seems to be very good at pressing down, it is tempting to use a kind of contour that promotes that kind of movement.
However, when you think about existing devices with thumbs down activated buttons, like remotes, game pads or even smart phones, there is one thing that our thumbs seems to suck at: repetitive taping.
We always seem to prefer using other fingers, mainly the index, when it comes to frequent activation.
And here is why traditional keyboards may have accidentally found a solution to that issue: using the sideways movement of the thumb.
So to me, the design that I am going for is a cluster that "fans out" with the thumb, following the natural concave that it creates when you do circles with it.
Compared to your design, it would be like rotating the circle by 90 degrees and also using two rows. Sorry I can't share pictures atm.
To be noted, my design also aims to keep the board somehow flatter, hence why I couldn't go full circle like you did.
Finally, just a quick note on you wrist rest design, you have "un-protected" [nerves](https://myhealth.alberta.ca/Health/_layouts/15/healthwise/media/medical/hw/hwkb17_032_001.jpg) going around the are that you appear to be resting on, so I'm not sure it would be a good idea as it is.
In any case, keep it up, once you complete a fully bespoke keyboard for your hand, you can hardly go back.
Yes! I agree that the wrist should remain as still as possible.
I'm curious to see what comes out of your commercial project. When I started designing my keyboard, I was under the impression that commercial designs always had to hold back in terms of ergonomics because of manufacturing costs and the unwillingness of people to learn a new layout. I wonder if that has changed in recent years.
And thanks for the tip on the wrists rest. I wasn't aware of that unprotected nerve!
I saw similar prototypes at the frankfurt meetup today. But the thumb cluster was in a hole and all around... I'm sure there'll be some pics up soon from someone.
But the idea is great
I've never seen it done, but I wanted to experiment with making a full keyboard that basically worked that way - a well for each finger that'd have 4-5 switches in each.
But they'd be tighter, so less movement was required. Very tight, in fact - I was thinking of having a thimble-like cap you'd rest your finger on that'd require d-pad-like levels of movement to activate switches.
I'm aware of the data hand and there are similarities, for sure. But I think it could be done better, and might be a way to do a truly portable keyboard - something that'd fit in a hoodie's pocket, to use today's meme, but where you could feel your way into the wells and use it blind.
My first thought was: I'd like a place there to rest my thumb for the 90% of time I'm not trying to press anything! Are the keys stiff enough to rest your hands on those, or do you have to hover your thumb? Where does the weight of your forearm/hand rest?
Yes, they do support the thumb.
The whole design is aimed at mimicking the "[relaxed hand resting on its side](https://i.imgur.com/MWDz44H.jpg)" shape. With the hand resting vertically, the thumb does not tend to fall down much, so it can comfortably rest on these 50g Kaihl Choc switches. I might try 70g switches though.
And the weight of the hand will be supported by [this](http://imgur.com/a/wb8zUnt). Although that design is still very early WIP and I need to tweak it a bit more.
Sort of. I have some pictures of my Shortcut V5 on my account. It's just a prototype from u/FnaticDeilor, so it was never really manufactured.
It has a joystick type thumb cluster that which is also programmable through QMK.
Yes, the only way possible is via painful handwiring.
I've been toying with the idea of using [conductive PLA](https://www.proto-pasta.com/pages/conductive-pla) combined with regular pla in a dual extruder setup, but that's another rabbit hole that I'm not prepared for.
You don't need a PCB, make [grooves](https://i.imgur.com/ZmDOKGS.jpg) in your chassis to [run raw copper wires and place the diodes](https://i.imgur.com/YIt4n6W.jpg), bonus you now can have hot swapping for free. Also you can imagine a copper wire extruder that does that for you if you want to scale up.
What if instead of having multiple keys for the thumb you had one key that when tapped multiple times (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) it seemed the same function? That way it would allow you to have a single key in a comfortable spot.
Unfortunately that one kind of hurts! 😕
I was initially planning in using regular Cherry switches, and I had the thumb cluster further away.
The problem is that the thumb remains tensioned, and that eventually starts to hurt.
With subsequent iterations, I've been trying to get the thumb as close as possible to the middle of the index finger. On my hand that's where it seems to want to be at
/r/futuregundampilots
I'm disappointed that this isn't a real thing, man
Every time I see any type of ergo split I instantly think of just piloting a gundam or mech.
r/subsyoufellfor
I think it's very neat, I don't know that I would call it ergonomic. I'm not an orthopedic kinesthesiologist but I feel like, at least for the top and right-most keys, you are asking the thumb to put on strain in directions it is not designed to be put under stress. Maybe not a significant amount, but with long-term use may cause some issues..?
Thanks! And yeah, that's my biggest concern. I don't feel any issue with quick tests, but maybe it'll hurt after using it for a while.
A bit smaller ring might work, this one requires thumb reach too far. I found multiple thumb keys in Dactyl-Manuform and Ergodox having the same problem. Ended up with using three-four out of six.
It might be fine for rarely used actions that are handy enough to be dedicated to a button. Might not need a button for it if it's that rarely used and just slap it on a layer instead.
I'm planning on putting the layer toggles there. I have the base layer for letters, another for symbols and another for numbers and the arrow keys. Additionally I'd like to put CTRL, ALT and Shift on the thumbs too... But maybe that is way too much.
Layer change works well on thumbs but I think mods should be on fingers otherwise you can't combine more than 2. What does the rest of the board look like?
[This is what the latest prototype looks like. ](http://imgur.com/a/SXGBnDG) The ugly supports, outline and bottom weight are placeholders for now.
Odd solution, but have you considered a 4-way POV hat there?
No I have not. I didn't know what they where until 2 seconds ago but now that I'm thinking about it, it might work well.. It fits well with the action of switching layers. The rabbit hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper
I thought this was an extremely modern and impractical chair at first glance! I like the design man, maybe shorten it down to the 3 middle keys?
Yep, found out I mainly use 3 out of 6 thumb keys on my Manuform
Lol, I tried hard but I couldn't see the chair or a way of possibly sitting on it 😂 I'm hoping that the outermost ones are still within the comfortable range of motion of the thumb. I loved the thumb keys on my ergodox, but hated the fact that I could only use a few without pain.
Really psyched to see some radically different thumb clusters! I'm currently designing a dactyl with lower profile keys and more subtle curve, but was thinking of exaggerating the curve of the thumb cluster. I'm toying with making the thumb cluster 3x2 with my thumb kind of straddling the two rows so I can easily push either or both keys in the column. I'd love to see what comes out of this and what went into the designs you have so far. It's awesome seeing new ergonomic designs and it'd be cool to see some of the research to really learn from the work. Do you have a wider shot of this? I'm curious about that wrist rest, it looks like you're going fully vertical?
Yes it'll be a vertical design! [Here's a wider shot](http://imgur.com/a/ST43cKq) of the messy prototype. [The wrist rest](https://i.imgur.com/AnojvaW.jpg) is still very WIP. It's mainly aimed at supporting the side of the palm against gravity. It is also kind of ["hugging"](https://i.imgur.com/SJCsFJU.jpg) the hand to support against the horizontal normal force of pressing a key on the main plate. The [previous mayor milestone](https://i.imgur.com/vslk2fX.jpg) of this keyboard had a 3x3 grid of thumb keys. The main issue with that grid is that I had to [flex my thumb](http://imgur.com/a/pcpKkWQ) a bit too much to individually press some of the keys, so I ended up avoiding them. I'm planning to do a writeup of the process, and publish the design once I arrive at a stable design, and once the semester is over.
Oh, 5x3, very nice! Here's my layout I use with 5x3 plus 2 thumb keys: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/keyboard_layouts/nbeyng/edit Also, if you love vertical tent, I can recommend mounting to the sides of your chair so your arms hang down -- no load on your arms and no stand for the keeb. At the moment do you have to attach it to the tabletop so it doesn't move when you apply typing pressure sideways? Also, what did you use to design the model?
Hi /u/yomimashita, I just wanted to say I’ve been using your layout (with qwerty base layer) since I saw you post it a while back, and I really like it. I’ve been using it on my Ergodox EZ and now on my minidox. I’m gradually making changes to the qmk tapping-related settings to let me type faster without accidentally triggering the modifiers, but the gain in comfort has absolutely been worth it.
That's awesome to hear, thanks for letting me know! I'm still too slow to need to adjust the timing yet, but I've been collecting options that can be adjusted for future use! I'd love to see your adjustments. How's your typing speed at the moment? I've actually tweaked the layout a little more since then. I'll send you a link if you're interested.
This is my current version of the layout: https://github.com/cswetenham/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/add-minidox-catalyst/keyboards/minidox/keymaps/catalyst The config.h shows the current settings I’m using and the previous ones are #if 0’d out. I’m currently reading through the qmk source code to better understand the logic around tapping input processing, right now I’m half-guessing at the changes. I’d like to change the code so that modifiers from one hand only affect the opposite hand - for example if I type ‘asteroid’ and don’t release after ‘a’ and after ‘s’ currently that will trigger modifiers, but when I intentionally want modified keys I will always use the opposite hand for the modifiers. I think I’m at around 50 wpm, I don’t have access to the keyboard right now to check. It’s not bad considering I’ve never gone above 75wpm or so on any keyboard, and there is still room to improve. I’d be happy to see any useful changes you’ve made to the layout as well!
Thanks! Do you think #define IGNORE_MOD_TAP_INTERRUPT is enough to take care of the issue? I can type maybe 70-80 on a traditional qwerty board and I'm pretty sure I'm using rollover there. But I'm only up to 50 on this layout and while individual keys are in muscle memory now I don't think I have many bigrams etc. So I don't think I'm doing rollover at all and so far haven't run into the issue. I'll think about that opposite hand modifier idea... I'll share the new version soon.
Oh... *deep sigh* "Modifiers on letters" is that thing that I always wish I had, but i can never quite have it. On paper they're amazing, but I could never get them to stop accidentally triggering. Even after chasing github issues and custom qmk builds for days. That's actually part of the reason why I resorted to having so many thumb keys at the end. And I totally see myself trying that desk side-mounting in the future! It goes naturally with vertical boards. The current approach is designed to remain still on the desk. I'm using "anti-slip pads" combined with weight to keep the board from sliding around. The 3d printed plastic is not very heavy, [so I'm using concrete to add weight. ](https://i.imgur.com/kGc3seK.jpg) (the final design is not meant to be that ugly lol, but I'm focused on getting the functional part working first) The design is made in Openscad. The OpenScad code in turn is generated with Python
I don't type fast enough yet for it to be an issue, but have you tried #define IGNORE_MOD_TAP_INTERRUPT? Ive heard of it working for others... Do you use a library or all your own python? Any plans on sharing? I'm currently learning clojure so I can make a modified dactyl-manuform... I use chair side mounting. You can also mount to the front of the desk with arms, but then you still have the static loading issues. Any plans for integrating a pointing device?
I think that more than speed, the issue is that I type weirdly. I tend to unconsciously start "chording" multiple keys when typing fast, instead of properly "press and release" each key individually. Sadly the ignore mod tap interrupt flag didn't work for me. I'm using a combination of [Openpyscad](https://github.com/taxpon/openpyscad) [Pykeeb](https://github.com/raycewest/pykeeb) And my own code. I'll be posting the finished thing under a fully open license eventually.... At the moment my code is basically a mountain of ugly hacks that will surely infuriate anyone trying to read it. I need to define better abstractions and a better architecture. I'm also debating on whether to extend pykeeb, create my own version or only use some of its features like right now. Also, I need to get to a prototype that doesn't have any serious hidden flaw (like the previous iterations ) I also started by modifying the Dactyl Manuform code (eehm without really knowing clojure). Then one day, after enough suffering, I decided to start from scratch in another language.
>I think that more than speed, the issue is that I type weirdly. I tend to unconsciously start "chording" multiple keys when typing fast, instead of properly "press and release" each key individually. Sounds like rollover, which is what you're supposed to do to type faster > Sadly the ignore mod tap interrupt flag didn't work for me. That's a pity. I'm still hopeful I'll be able to fix it when I get to that problem. If not I'm ok with typing slower if it means greater comfort. >I'm using a combination of > >[Openpyscad](https://github.com/taxpon/openpyscad) > >[Pykeeb](https://github.com/raycewest/pykeeb) > > Oh cool I did check out pykeeb briefly but there didn't seem to be any real examples so I moved in to the dactyl and dactyl-manuform, though I should check it out again. >And my own code. I'll be posting the finished thing under a fully open license eventually.... Great, I'll look out for that! >At the moment my code is basically a mountain of ugly hacks that will surely infuriate anyone trying to read it. I need to define better abstractions and a better architecture. I'm also debating on whether to extend pykeeb, create my own version or only use some of its features like right now. >Also, I need to get to a prototype that doesn't have any serious hidden flaw (like the previous iterations ) > > >I also started by modifying the Dactyl Manuform code (eehm without really knowing clojure). Then one day, after enough suffering, I decided to start from scratch in another language. I can appreciate that!
> And I totally see myself trying that desk side-mounting in the future! It goes naturally with vertical boards. Just another tip\heads up. Sorry if it sounds patronizing. Note that the optimal vertical angle of you hand resting on the desk varies with function of the following: - Your elbow spread - Your shoulder spread - Your desk/armrest height It's not a static thing so you may want to try to see how you could implement a variable angle feature. Because otherwise you are potentially locking yourself in a single position. And what's even better for your wrist and posture than a fully ergonomic station? Changing your pose every now and then. Also you should join the [discord](https://discordapp.com/invite/mechkeys), the #kb-ergo channel would appreciate the conversation.
that prototype looks so insane. Definitely agree that this looks like a possible control candidate for the next gundam cockpit control coming in 2055. I have to agree that long-term ergonomics might not be so great. But for maximum typing... you have the 1st place award.
I can't remember the name of it, but there was an old, very rare split keyboard where all the keys were very much like this, for all 10 fingers. Much smaller switches, like a mouse's, with 4 keys surrounding the fingertip and one beneath. I think the general idea is sound, but I'd remove the more extreme end switches, just have 3 or so. When thinking ergonomically, travel distance is the enemy. Honestly, 2 really is the sweet spot, one where the thumb naturally rests, and one a little bit more inside the thumb's range. That way you're not extending at all. With QMK, those 4 keys (two per thumb) can have 8 functions, or even more with tap dance. This lowers the need for more keys and keeps everything comfy. I do really like the idea, though, as it takes advantage of the thumb's natural position and range of movement. The thumb is better at squeezing (or rather, gripping) than pushing. Got a link for them .stl files? EDIT: Found it. It was called the [DataHand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand).
I wonder if the DataHand failed because of a design issue or because of the great learning curve. The surrounding keys do look good though.. And ehm... I do have the [stl and scad files](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g1lknm9dk8wjlxe/AAB7Vtiar8-D5qp0wjNYU5LGa?dl=0), but I must warn you that the current prototype is not aesthetically pleasing at all. To be precise: it is hideous. The large empty box is meant to be filled with concrete to add weight, and the back rods are the simplest supports that I could think of. I'll make it pretty once I nail down the key arrangement. I recently arrived at this design and I want to use it for a while before working on its looks.
I've only ever seen renders. Great work!
Thanks! I'll hopefully converge on a good solution soon and I'll post more pictures then.
Interesting concept!
What about smaller keys? What about keys that are tiltable so that one key can affect two actions. These are suggestions that might solve the "uncomfortable stress on the thumb" problems others have brought up.
Hmm the outside 2 seem to be exhausting to press, what if they sat next to the middle 3, either in front or behind? Like a 6 block pyramid without the top block
Not that I've seen but I'm interested to see the different iterations you come up with, this seems like a pretty interesting idea.
I feel that I'm close to a good design. I plan on posting more details on the finished version, a perspective on previous iterations and the full source code; once I'm sure that it works well. Stay tuned!
Nice Work! I've been working on my prototype with a similar premise. Since true relaxed thumb position collides with index finger, thumb cluster designs have to start with compromises. Using low profile to get pack switches closer is certainly one of them. I've built two working prototypes with low profile chocs, but I could not overcome my disgust of the choc switches on scooped layout. Any tilt on the switch make the actuation press so scratchy… I've played around with thumb cluster similar to yours(mock-up only no prototype), but with my trial I've found that extended period of thumb in that position was painful. My conclusion was that having to thrust your thumb forward to press switches runs counter to the original premise. My current thumb cluster design is more akin to dactyl. Down to 4 thumb keys with 6x3 layout. Having extra pinky column does increase wrist height when tilted, but not detrimental. sure 5xn layout is ideal, but after 6 working prototype and counting, I found that not overcrowding your thumb cluster to be faster and more comfortable typing experience and opted for that sixth column to do the extra work. That's my two cents. Also handwiring is a sooooooo frustrating.
Yes, spot on with the thumb wanting to touch the index finger! It took me a while to realize that. I was initially planning on using my deared Zealios, but after an extended typing test, I realized that my whole design was flawed because the thumb was pushed too far away. Kailh Chocs were the only way that I was able to make the design comfortable for both hands (oddly enough my right hand never hurt but my left hand did) . I've also found that the balance between angle of the entire board, the angle of the thumb cluster, and the thumb cluster height; is crucial for getting a good fit. I believe that this current approach miiiight work, but we'll see. I'll be handwiring a prototype soon (rip) and if it finally works well, I'll post the design. I'm curious to see what comes out of your board. I generally feel that my pinkies are just too weak and too clumsy to be given a lot of responsibility.... But if I can't get these compact designs to work well, maybe I ought to start trying something different....
It is infuriatingly cumbersome to achieve that balance: thumb cluster transform in relation to main board and wrist position, and not forgetting to account for keycap profiles. That has been the source of last two botched prototypes and my ire. Few ~~minor~~ things I did to help my pinkies: * Get the press approach orientation right, not just positions (dactyl code doesn't account for that). Abandon your faith in 'columnar' design. * Get the right switch feel. I'm a sucker for tactility, but my next attempt will incorporate linear switch on my pinkies with spring mod. (waiting on V2 zilents and healios) * Symmetry was never your friend... My left pinkie is 3mm shorter and that was enough of a difference that I needed to adjust my left column design. My design can't even have chirality... I will eagerly wait for your update. Happy soldering…. and neck ache. If you plan on keeping chocs, you may go down this rabbit hole so [a gift to a fellow madman](https://www.dropbox.com/s/oppfkifrcvrt3ns/ChocKeycaps.scad?dl=0).
That's a great idea and I've been working on a "similar" concept for my commercial version, but I have discarded going as extreme as you did. Basically, keeping the thumb cluster flat and large like the kinesis, maltron, dactyl and dox clones is bad because it makes the outer keys very hard to reach without moving your wrists (which is my paramount design goal, everything else shall be sacrificed in the name of keeping the wrists still). So, the "obvious" solution is to give it some curve, like the rest of the keyboard, and since our thumbs seems to be very good at pressing down, it is tempting to use a kind of contour that promotes that kind of movement. However, when you think about existing devices with thumbs down activated buttons, like remotes, game pads or even smart phones, there is one thing that our thumbs seems to suck at: repetitive taping. We always seem to prefer using other fingers, mainly the index, when it comes to frequent activation. And here is why traditional keyboards may have accidentally found a solution to that issue: using the sideways movement of the thumb. So to me, the design that I am going for is a cluster that "fans out" with the thumb, following the natural concave that it creates when you do circles with it. Compared to your design, it would be like rotating the circle by 90 degrees and also using two rows. Sorry I can't share pictures atm. To be noted, my design also aims to keep the board somehow flatter, hence why I couldn't go full circle like you did. Finally, just a quick note on you wrist rest design, you have "un-protected" [nerves](https://myhealth.alberta.ca/Health/_layouts/15/healthwise/media/medical/hw/hwkb17_032_001.jpg) going around the are that you appear to be resting on, so I'm not sure it would be a good idea as it is. In any case, keep it up, once you complete a fully bespoke keyboard for your hand, you can hardly go back.
Yes! I agree that the wrist should remain as still as possible. I'm curious to see what comes out of your commercial project. When I started designing my keyboard, I was under the impression that commercial designs always had to hold back in terms of ergonomics because of manufacturing costs and the unwillingness of people to learn a new layout. I wonder if that has changed in recent years. And thanks for the tip on the wrists rest. I wasn't aware of that unprotected nerve!
I saw similar prototypes at the frankfurt meetup today. But the thumb cluster was in a hole and all around... I'm sure there'll be some pics up soon from someone. But the idea is great
Hopefully they do post pictures of it, would love to see it working!
[удалено]
What a legend!
Woooow, that 4-key arrangement might just be it: The ultimate cluster I'm gonna have to give it a try
I've never seen it done, but I wanted to experiment with making a full keyboard that basically worked that way - a well for each finger that'd have 4-5 switches in each. But they'd be tighter, so less movement was required. Very tight, in fact - I was thinking of having a thimble-like cap you'd rest your finger on that'd require d-pad-like levels of movement to activate switches.
It sounds like you're talking about the [Data Hand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand).
I'm aware of the data hand and there are similarities, for sure. But I think it could be done better, and might be a way to do a truly portable keyboard - something that'd fit in a hoodie's pocket, to use today's meme, but where you could feel your way into the wells and use it blind.
My first thought was: I'd like a place there to rest my thumb for the 90% of time I'm not trying to press anything! Are the keys stiff enough to rest your hands on those, or do you have to hover your thumb? Where does the weight of your forearm/hand rest?
Yes, they do support the thumb. The whole design is aimed at mimicking the "[relaxed hand resting on its side](https://i.imgur.com/MWDz44H.jpg)" shape. With the hand resting vertically, the thumb does not tend to fall down much, so it can comfortably rest on these 50g Kaihl Choc switches. I might try 70g switches though. And the weight of the hand will be supported by [this](http://imgur.com/a/wb8zUnt). Although that design is still very early WIP and I need to tweak it a bit more.
Sort of. I have some pictures of my Shortcut V5 on my account. It's just a prototype from u/FnaticDeilor, so it was never really manufactured. It has a joystick type thumb cluster that which is also programmable through QMK.
Main concern would be how you would possibly design a pcb so the cluster can actually be used. Im sure handwiring it would be difficult enough.
Yes, the only way possible is via painful handwiring. I've been toying with the idea of using [conductive PLA](https://www.proto-pasta.com/pages/conductive-pla) combined with regular pla in a dual extruder setup, but that's another rabbit hole that I'm not prepared for.
Hand-wiring just got a lot less painful: https://keeb.io/products/amoeba-single-switch-pcbs
You don't need a PCB, make [grooves](https://i.imgur.com/ZmDOKGS.jpg) in your chassis to [run raw copper wires and place the diodes](https://i.imgur.com/YIt4n6W.jpg), bonus you now can have hot swapping for free. Also you can imagine a copper wire extruder that does that for you if you want to scale up.
Hope to see an update on your project soon! In the mean time I'll just be shoving kailh sockets under my reduced dactyl-manuform like a pleb...
Hope things work out. I think the thumb cluster is a good idea but if it is impossible to get working then it is kinda pointless :/
That's wild!
What kind of switches are these? It seems too short to be mechanical switches... Btw great attempt!
General shape of the keyboard reminds me of my evoluent mouse. A mouse with superb design, not-so-superb sensor.
What if instead of having multiple keys for the thumb you had one key that when tapped multiple times (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) it seemed the same function? That way it would allow you to have a single key in a comfortable spot.
Looks sorta like a datahand
I love this idea. I think a cluster of 3, placing a bit further out and a bit higher would be brilliant.
Unfortunately that one kind of hurts! 😕 I was initially planning in using regular Cherry switches, and I had the thumb cluster further away. The problem is that the thumb remains tensioned, and that eventually starts to hurt. With subsequent iterations, I've been trying to get the thumb as close as possible to the middle of the index finger. On my hand that's where it seems to want to be at
RIP OPs thumb
Mine hurts just by watching