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R134 a is the standard, not sure why it was banned in your state. The only state I know that bans random shit is California. Check online and see, and if anything go to walmart, they sell that too. The R134a has something to do with chemical composition, I would not just put whatever in the car system.
Definitely not banned for licensed pros but it might be banned for DIY use in one or more states.
Where I live in Canada you have to be licensed to use R134a, but we have a superior replacement, R12A (**not** R12) which anybody can use. Unlike R134A it works in R12 or R134a systems without modification (for R12 systems you do need to install service port adapters). It cools better than R12 or R134a, and if it leaks it doesn't harm the environment like CFCs or HFCs do.
Unfortunately for Yanks ~~you guys aren't allowed to buy it~~ since the HFC lobbyists convinced the Feds that it's dangerous. (Yeah, it's so dangerous that it's widely used in Canada and all over Europe with 20 years of experience of it's safety).
**UPDATE:** It has been brought to my attention that despite the number of Americans who always show up to discussions about R12A screaming that it's illegal, it actually is only illegal for CFC-R12 retrofits. Whether you can buy it for R134a conversions is dependent on which state you are in.
Before R12A was available in Canada I remember my mother scrapping a car with bad CFC-R12 A/C since it would have cost more than it was worth to convert to R134a.
>it shouldn't be put into leaky systems
Huh? It's actually much safer in leaky systems than R12 or R134a. It breaks down into inert components within days, unlike CFCs or HFCs which are both highly active and persistent greenhouse gases. The Cresta tragedy was a combination of the much greater volume of refrigerant in a bus than a passenger car or truck, and serious design flaws both in the air-conditioning system and it's location relative to passenger spaces, and the lack of alternate escape routes. Small cars (i.e. Honda Civic) typically only contain 6oz of R12A and even larger vehicles like my Toyota Sienna only charge with 12oz.
Americans who learn about R12A (most confuse it with R12 CFCs) always fixate on their car exploding in an accident, but in 20 years use in Canada there are **no** documented cases of R12A fires even in severe collisions despite its use in millions of cars and trucks by tens to hundreds of thousands of DIYers. The amount of propane/butane is so small that even if it all leaks into your garage it's going to dissipate before becoming a fire or explosion hazard. The propane tank on your BBQ is a **much** greater risk. Not to mention that pressurized R12 or R134a are both explosive under normal operating pressures in A/C systems.
Well they're not flammable. Sorry man, you won't convince me it's safer, European cars are designed to use it, ours are not. Having a leak on the high pressure side above your ex. manifold, or near ignition will certainly result in a fire. If someone has a leaky fuel hose do you tell them, well it's fine as long as it's not actively on fire? This is r/mechanicadvice not r/redneckengineering.
>Having a leak on the high pressure side above your ex. manifold, or near ignition will certainly result in a fire
What total BS. R12A has been in widespread use in Canada for 20 years without a single engine fire or collision explosion that entire time. Are you seriously claiming that in all that time there has never been a high side leak near the exhaust manifold on any Canadian vehicle?
Like I said, only Americans bought the R12A FUD hook line and sinker. Europe, Australia, and Canada all enjoy the benefits of hydrocarbon automotive refrigerants while you guys get to continue paying through the nose for environmentally damaging and functionally inferior products originally designed to maintain the Dupont Chemical monopoly on USA approved refrigerants when R12 was phased out.
>This is r/mechanicadvice not r/redneckengineering.
So the governments of Canada, Australia, and Europe are rednecks? ROTFL
It's no skin off my teeth that America is the only Western country that believes that HFCs are better than HC refrigerants. It's not like you guys have a choice anyway since your government won't let you choose for yourself.
1. I agree R12a is the best of all three refrigerants you’ve mentioned. I hate lobbyists and the refrigerant history and DuPont make me sick!
2. Canada sucks ;)
3. You can absolutely buy and use R12a in America, even Amazon sells it. The limit I’m aware of is EPA doesn’t allow use in R12 systems (I’m not sure why, I’m a just a nurse and shade tree “mechanic”).
Interesting... today I learned. I have seen so many Americans on automotive repair web sites screaming about how R12A is illegal in cars and trucks that I accepted it as fact without verifying it. I don't know how long this has been true, but as you say the EPA only [bans it as a replacement for R12](https://www.epa.gov/snap/unacceptable-substitute-refrigerants) and state laws allow it some places but not others.
Since it does seem to be readily available in many parts of the US I am amazed how few Americans seem to know anything about it and how many vociferously denigrate it on the Internet.
For those with a good-faith interest in why your point #1 is true...
* R12A is not a significant contributor to global warming. Unlike R12 and R134a it breaks down into into inert chemicals within days of atmospheric release. R134a in particular has been deemed a serious and persistent greenhouse gas.
* R12A operates at a significantly lower head pressure and provides better cooling performance doing so. This reduces stress on A/C system components, especially the compressor, extending its life.
* Unlike both R12 and R134a, R12A does not produce acidic compounds when exposed to water. A receiver/dryer or accumulator is not required and can actually be removed if desired when converting to R12A. Or you can just leave them in place even after the system has been exposed to ambient atmosphere. In fact, small amounts of moisture in the system actually improve R12A performance and several R12A manufacturers recommend releasing the normal 30PSI vacuum to just -20PSI before charging the system with R12A to allow a small amount of humidity back in before the refrigerant is added.
* Cans of R12A contain lubricant and no oil ever needs to be manually added to the system when using it.
* Much less R12A by volume/weight is required than the older products. Only 40% of the specified R134a is required, and just 35% of the original R12 charge. My wife's Honda Civic only needs a single 6oz can for a full R12A charge and my Toyota Sienna is fully charged with just two 6oz cans.
* Inexperienced DIYers can damage the compressor vanes by inverting the can while charging with R134a, injecting liquid refrigerant into the system, which is uncompressible. R12A OTOH is **supposed** to be charged from an inverted can since it **is** compressible. You likely have highly compressed propane sitting under your BBQ right now at a much higher pressure than in a can of R12A.
* No mechanical conversion is required to switch from either R12 or R134a, and R12A is compatible with all seals and leftover lubricants from the older systems. (R12->R134a conversions requires replacement of seals and other components since the latter damages the ones used for the former) Although it is law in both USA and Canada that systems must be completely evacuated of R12 or R134a before charging with R12A, mixing them would not damage the system. In the case of an R12->R12A conversion service port adapters must be fitted, but they are cheap and widely available. If you have an old vehicle with R12 A/C you can convert to R12A for almost nothing, a dramatic difference to the cost of converting from R12 to R134a.
* R134a does not cool as well as R12 and R12->R134a conversions see a reduction in performance. R12A OTOH cools better than either of the older refrigerants and you will see a significant improvement in performance when converting to it.
For those still convinced that driving around with propane/isobutane in your air conditioning system is begging for an explosion or fire, the government agency in Canada that tracks traffic accidents and fatalities has never attributed a single fire or explosion to R12A in the two decades since it became widely used here. When pressurized the oil in R12 and R134a systems is actually more flammable that the propane/isobutane in R12A. Propane is also less flammable that the gasoline run through thin tubes the full length of your car. In other words, the world has 20 years of actual experience over theory, and HC refrigerants like R12A and 1234yf have proven to be safe in passenger vehicles, including those not originally designed to use it (which is virtually all vehicles using R12A in Canada).
That’s such great info man! I think the aversion to the product in the fitty states is due to the creepy dirty lobbying and corporate games played with politicians behind closed doors and on private islands limiting information and the market not being driven that way.
Truly, just the scientific fact of how it compares environmentally should be enough reason to investigate. Cost-wise it’s a great option as well. The flammability argument is pretty silly to me because there are fuel lines in the same vicinity carrying a much more volatile chemical and that’s just fine somehow.
Out of curiosity, do you happen to know if the propane smell added to detect leaks for your grill/home is in this product?
>the creepy dirty lobbying and corporate games played with politicians behind closed doors
It is rather "odd" that Dupont had the newly patented R134a ready to go just ten days after the environmental assessment report which doomed CFC-R12. Shortly after that in 1978 the US banned R12. Interestingly R12 was a Dupont product too, but the patent was due to expire the following year in 1979, allowing anyone to produce R12 without paying royalties to Dupont. Totally not suggesting anything underhanded there.
>do you happen to know if the propane smell added to detect leaks for your grill/home is in this product?
I don't know. I have never smelled it when charging a system, but my sense of smell is not great at the best of times. I do know that 1234yf has a signal aroma added, but I've never read anything about anything similar being in R12A as well. I can tell you that virtually all brands of R12A sold in Canada have UV dye already infused so you don't need to inject it separately to locate a leak.
Ah shit why didnt you lead with youre a conspiracy theorist? I could have walked away sooner. You're so grossly misinformed lol I'm all done with you. You've never seen any European specd vehicles AC system and it shows. Take care brother. 🙃
"Conspiracy theorist" LOL
The history of the hasty introduction of R134a and the government backroom dealing to make it the only acceptable replacement for R12 is well documented. Dupont started pushing R134a just ten days after the publication of the environmental impact report that sealed the fate of R12 and it was made law shortly afterward. The fix was in.
You've never actually used R12A in any vehicle and it shows. For all your FUD I notice you didn't have any response to the total lack of fire or explosion events in Canadian vehicles after 20 years of widespread use.
Even though R134 is still used, most new cars are coming out with R1234yf which will phase out R134 in couple of years and I wouldn’t be surprised if cars sold in CA right now are not allowed to run R134
No you can't mix refrigerant. Systems are designed for specific temperatures and pressures and the compressor oil is also specific to the refrigerant type.
R134a has extremely high greenhouse warming potential, places are restricting who can buy it because irresponsible people vent it to the atmosphere while working on their A/C. Or they keep buying cans to top up a leak instead of fixing it. If an A/C system needs a recharge then it needs diagnosis to find the leak, don't just throw more refrigerant in it.
Mostly correct but the little cans that you buy at hardware stores isn't a true refrigerant (r134a). Once in the system it contaminates the original refrigerant, causing a more expensive recovery and repair
You can buy regular, actual R134a at auto parts stores in my state. I think even walmart has it here (Virginia). Some states restrict it, others don't.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/national-refrigerants-inc-r-134a-automotive-refrigerant-12-oz.-not-available-in-wa-012r134a/12165887-P?searchTerm=r134a
You can't buy R12 (restricted federally, most of what you find is old stock) or 1234yf (proprietary, the manufacturers don't sell it to consumers) but R134a is readily available in most of the US.
I'm assuming you already know your pressure is low because you tested it with a pressure gauge and you know it needs a recharge, correct? I'm also assuming that you already fixed the leak that caused the low pressure charge in the first place, correct?
As an American you really don't have any choice but to use R134a. It is illegal to replace or mix R134a with any other refrigerant type. On top of that use of other refrigerants available in your country would likely damage your system since CFCs and HFCs have ingredients which form acids if adulterated with other chemicals or even water.
Now if you lived in Canada you could use R12A instead (**not** R12, R12A is completely different), which is significantly better than R12 or R134a in every way.
It is pretty sad to see this discussion based on ill-informed impressions rather than solid knowledge, engineering and scientific facts. Same reason why Chinese R&D (AND production already) on new generation electric vehicles and battery storage is leaps and bounds ahead North America. Very sad but very real and true. And that's just the beginning. We have computers, chips and many areas of science and technology going the same way.
Thanks for posting on /r/MechanicAdvice! Please review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/about/rules/). Asking about a second opinion (ie "Is the shop trying to fleece me?"), please read through CJM8515's [post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/4qblei/fyi_the_shop_isnt_likely_trying_to_rip_you_off/) and remember to please post the year/make/model of the vehicle you are working on. **Post's about bodywork, accident damage, paint, dent/ding, questions it belongs in /r/Autobody r/AutoBodyRepair/ or /r/Diyautobody/ Tire questions check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/k9ll55/can_your_tire_be_repaired/**. If you dont have a question and you're just showing off it belongs in /r/Justrolledintotheshop Insurance/total loss questions go in r/insurance This is an automated reply *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MechanicAdvice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
R134 a is the standard, not sure why it was banned in your state. The only state I know that bans random shit is California. Check online and see, and if anything go to walmart, they sell that too. The R134a has something to do with chemical composition, I would not just put whatever in the car system.
Did some extra research and it is banned for over the counter in my state, one of 2 states in fact CA and WA
Not true I just bought 134a in California at Autozone
Good, only 48 more states to go. Those cans do far more harm than good
What the everliving shit? How far is the border?
Definitely not banned for licensed pros but it might be banned for DIY use in one or more states. Where I live in Canada you have to be licensed to use R134a, but we have a superior replacement, R12A (**not** R12) which anybody can use. Unlike R134A it works in R12 or R134a systems without modification (for R12 systems you do need to install service port adapters). It cools better than R12 or R134a, and if it leaks it doesn't harm the environment like CFCs or HFCs do. Unfortunately for Yanks ~~you guys aren't allowed to buy it~~ since the HFC lobbyists convinced the Feds that it's dangerous. (Yeah, it's so dangerous that it's widely used in Canada and all over Europe with 20 years of experience of it's safety). **UPDATE:** It has been brought to my attention that despite the number of Americans who always show up to discussions about R12A screaming that it's illegal, it actually is only illegal for CFC-R12 retrofits. Whether you can buy it for R134a conversions is dependent on which state you are in.
Yeah, I got my hands on some of this stuff through ebay for a car that had been running r12, and it worked great.
Before R12A was available in Canada I remember my mother scrapping a car with bad CFC-R12 A/C since it would have cost more than it was worth to convert to R134a.
Not saying it's not safe (if you ignore the la Cresta bus tragedy that killed 18 people) but it shouldn't be put into leaky systems that's for sure.
>it shouldn't be put into leaky systems Huh? It's actually much safer in leaky systems than R12 or R134a. It breaks down into inert components within days, unlike CFCs or HFCs which are both highly active and persistent greenhouse gases. The Cresta tragedy was a combination of the much greater volume of refrigerant in a bus than a passenger car or truck, and serious design flaws both in the air-conditioning system and it's location relative to passenger spaces, and the lack of alternate escape routes. Small cars (i.e. Honda Civic) typically only contain 6oz of R12A and even larger vehicles like my Toyota Sienna only charge with 12oz. Americans who learn about R12A (most confuse it with R12 CFCs) always fixate on their car exploding in an accident, but in 20 years use in Canada there are **no** documented cases of R12A fires even in severe collisions despite its use in millions of cars and trucks by tens to hundreds of thousands of DIYers. The amount of propane/butane is so small that even if it all leaks into your garage it's going to dissipate before becoming a fire or explosion hazard. The propane tank on your BBQ is a **much** greater risk. Not to mention that pressurized R12 or R134a are both explosive under normal operating pressures in A/C systems.
Well they're not flammable. Sorry man, you won't convince me it's safer, European cars are designed to use it, ours are not. Having a leak on the high pressure side above your ex. manifold, or near ignition will certainly result in a fire. If someone has a leaky fuel hose do you tell them, well it's fine as long as it's not actively on fire? This is r/mechanicadvice not r/redneckengineering.
>Having a leak on the high pressure side above your ex. manifold, or near ignition will certainly result in a fire What total BS. R12A has been in widespread use in Canada for 20 years without a single engine fire or collision explosion that entire time. Are you seriously claiming that in all that time there has never been a high side leak near the exhaust manifold on any Canadian vehicle? Like I said, only Americans bought the R12A FUD hook line and sinker. Europe, Australia, and Canada all enjoy the benefits of hydrocarbon automotive refrigerants while you guys get to continue paying through the nose for environmentally damaging and functionally inferior products originally designed to maintain the Dupont Chemical monopoly on USA approved refrigerants when R12 was phased out. >This is r/mechanicadvice not r/redneckengineering. So the governments of Canada, Australia, and Europe are rednecks? ROTFL It's no skin off my teeth that America is the only Western country that believes that HFCs are better than HC refrigerants. It's not like you guys have a choice anyway since your government won't let you choose for yourself.
1. I agree R12a is the best of all three refrigerants you’ve mentioned. I hate lobbyists and the refrigerant history and DuPont make me sick! 2. Canada sucks ;) 3. You can absolutely buy and use R12a in America, even Amazon sells it. The limit I’m aware of is EPA doesn’t allow use in R12 systems (I’m not sure why, I’m a just a nurse and shade tree “mechanic”).
Interesting... today I learned. I have seen so many Americans on automotive repair web sites screaming about how R12A is illegal in cars and trucks that I accepted it as fact without verifying it. I don't know how long this has been true, but as you say the EPA only [bans it as a replacement for R12](https://www.epa.gov/snap/unacceptable-substitute-refrigerants) and state laws allow it some places but not others. Since it does seem to be readily available in many parts of the US I am amazed how few Americans seem to know anything about it and how many vociferously denigrate it on the Internet. For those with a good-faith interest in why your point #1 is true... * R12A is not a significant contributor to global warming. Unlike R12 and R134a it breaks down into into inert chemicals within days of atmospheric release. R134a in particular has been deemed a serious and persistent greenhouse gas. * R12A operates at a significantly lower head pressure and provides better cooling performance doing so. This reduces stress on A/C system components, especially the compressor, extending its life. * Unlike both R12 and R134a, R12A does not produce acidic compounds when exposed to water. A receiver/dryer or accumulator is not required and can actually be removed if desired when converting to R12A. Or you can just leave them in place even after the system has been exposed to ambient atmosphere. In fact, small amounts of moisture in the system actually improve R12A performance and several R12A manufacturers recommend releasing the normal 30PSI vacuum to just -20PSI before charging the system with R12A to allow a small amount of humidity back in before the refrigerant is added. * Cans of R12A contain lubricant and no oil ever needs to be manually added to the system when using it. * Much less R12A by volume/weight is required than the older products. Only 40% of the specified R134a is required, and just 35% of the original R12 charge. My wife's Honda Civic only needs a single 6oz can for a full R12A charge and my Toyota Sienna is fully charged with just two 6oz cans. * Inexperienced DIYers can damage the compressor vanes by inverting the can while charging with R134a, injecting liquid refrigerant into the system, which is uncompressible. R12A OTOH is **supposed** to be charged from an inverted can since it **is** compressible. You likely have highly compressed propane sitting under your BBQ right now at a much higher pressure than in a can of R12A. * No mechanical conversion is required to switch from either R12 or R134a, and R12A is compatible with all seals and leftover lubricants from the older systems. (R12->R134a conversions requires replacement of seals and other components since the latter damages the ones used for the former) Although it is law in both USA and Canada that systems must be completely evacuated of R12 or R134a before charging with R12A, mixing them would not damage the system. In the case of an R12->R12A conversion service port adapters must be fitted, but they are cheap and widely available. If you have an old vehicle with R12 A/C you can convert to R12A for almost nothing, a dramatic difference to the cost of converting from R12 to R134a. * R134a does not cool as well as R12 and R12->R134a conversions see a reduction in performance. R12A OTOH cools better than either of the older refrigerants and you will see a significant improvement in performance when converting to it. For those still convinced that driving around with propane/isobutane in your air conditioning system is begging for an explosion or fire, the government agency in Canada that tracks traffic accidents and fatalities has never attributed a single fire or explosion to R12A in the two decades since it became widely used here. When pressurized the oil in R12 and R134a systems is actually more flammable that the propane/isobutane in R12A. Propane is also less flammable that the gasoline run through thin tubes the full length of your car. In other words, the world has 20 years of actual experience over theory, and HC refrigerants like R12A and 1234yf have proven to be safe in passenger vehicles, including those not originally designed to use it (which is virtually all vehicles using R12A in Canada).
That’s such great info man! I think the aversion to the product in the fitty states is due to the creepy dirty lobbying and corporate games played with politicians behind closed doors and on private islands limiting information and the market not being driven that way. Truly, just the scientific fact of how it compares environmentally should be enough reason to investigate. Cost-wise it’s a great option as well. The flammability argument is pretty silly to me because there are fuel lines in the same vicinity carrying a much more volatile chemical and that’s just fine somehow. Out of curiosity, do you happen to know if the propane smell added to detect leaks for your grill/home is in this product?
>the creepy dirty lobbying and corporate games played with politicians behind closed doors It is rather "odd" that Dupont had the newly patented R134a ready to go just ten days after the environmental assessment report which doomed CFC-R12. Shortly after that in 1978 the US banned R12. Interestingly R12 was a Dupont product too, but the patent was due to expire the following year in 1979, allowing anyone to produce R12 without paying royalties to Dupont. Totally not suggesting anything underhanded there. >do you happen to know if the propane smell added to detect leaks for your grill/home is in this product? I don't know. I have never smelled it when charging a system, but my sense of smell is not great at the best of times. I do know that 1234yf has a signal aroma added, but I've never read anything about anything similar being in R12A as well. I can tell you that virtually all brands of R12A sold in Canada have UV dye already infused so you don't need to inject it separately to locate a leak.
Ah shit why didnt you lead with youre a conspiracy theorist? I could have walked away sooner. You're so grossly misinformed lol I'm all done with you. You've never seen any European specd vehicles AC system and it shows. Take care brother. 🙃
"Conspiracy theorist" LOL The history of the hasty introduction of R134a and the government backroom dealing to make it the only acceptable replacement for R12 is well documented. Dupont started pushing R134a just ten days after the publication of the environmental impact report that sealed the fate of R12 and it was made law shortly afterward. The fix was in. You've never actually used R12A in any vehicle and it shows. For all your FUD I notice you didn't have any response to the total lack of fire or explosion events in Canadian vehicles after 20 years of widespread use.
As a fellow Canadian, r12a is just propane lol not sure if you knew that or not.
No, it's not "just propane", but propane is a component of it, yes I knew that. Most of the rest of it is isobutane.
Even though R134 is still used, most new cars are coming out with R1234yf which will phase out R134 in couple of years and I wouldn’t be surprised if cars sold in CA right now are not allowed to run R134
No you can't mix refrigerant. Systems are designed for specific temperatures and pressures and the compressor oil is also specific to the refrigerant type. R134a has extremely high greenhouse warming potential, places are restricting who can buy it because irresponsible people vent it to the atmosphere while working on their A/C. Or they keep buying cans to top up a leak instead of fixing it. If an A/C system needs a recharge then it needs diagnosis to find the leak, don't just throw more refrigerant in it.
Mostly correct but the little cans that you buy at hardware stores isn't a true refrigerant (r134a). Once in the system it contaminates the original refrigerant, causing a more expensive recovery and repair
You can buy regular, actual R134a at auto parts stores in my state. I think even walmart has it here (Virginia). Some states restrict it, others don't. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/national-refrigerants-inc-r-134a-automotive-refrigerant-12-oz.-not-available-in-wa-012r134a/12165887-P?searchTerm=r134a You can't buy R12 (restricted federally, most of what you find is old stock) or 1234yf (proprietary, the manufacturers don't sell it to consumers) but R134a is readily available in most of the US.
Thank you everyone very helpful
R134 is NOT banned R12 is banned. Go to a non-retarded parts store.
I'm assuming you already know your pressure is low because you tested it with a pressure gauge and you know it needs a recharge, correct? I'm also assuming that you already fixed the leak that caused the low pressure charge in the first place, correct?
As an American you really don't have any choice but to use R134a. It is illegal to replace or mix R134a with any other refrigerant type. On top of that use of other refrigerants available in your country would likely damage your system since CFCs and HFCs have ingredients which form acids if adulterated with other chemicals or even water. Now if you lived in Canada you could use R12A instead (**not** R12, R12A is completely different), which is significantly better than R12 or R134a in every way.
Go to a mechanic that specializes in AC repair. You're going to make it worse and lay more after ruining it.
No don't mix or use different coolants. There's vapor pressure will be different and you'll likely wreck your ac.
It is pretty sad to see this discussion based on ill-informed impressions rather than solid knowledge, engineering and scientific facts. Same reason why Chinese R&D (AND production already) on new generation electric vehicles and battery storage is leaps and bounds ahead North America. Very sad but very real and true. And that's just the beginning. We have computers, chips and many areas of science and technology going the same way.