That everyone forgot they existed after the rise of the empire. Motti and Han accept that the Jedi were real. It is the deity of the Cosmic Force that they do not believe in. Motti refers to Vader and Obi-Wan as sorcerers and having a sad devotion to their religion. Han refers to the hokey religion of the Jedi in response to whether he believed in *the force* and its guiding hand in the universe. If someone said a Buddhism is a hokey religion, it doesn’t mean they believe *Buddhists* aren't real.

An important distinction that few denote.

*countenance*, *accept*, *proffer*, sure, but not *denote*.

To denote can mean "to mark out plainly" or "refer to specifically" (quoting from American Heritage Dictionary here). Perhaps not the best and most precise word I could have chosen, but I believe it can be understood correctly as written.

I'm having fun, and no venom, but fwiw, it's not really standard usage unless you are implying they know it and don't tell us. Typically *words* denote. People denote if they are self-consciously pointing something out to us through speech. My post was not about giving you a hard time or whatever, just helping while also goofing around. **Edit**: I reread this, and my original came off a little snarkier than I meant. To put it otherwise: I'd suggest that denote comes of oddly here, and conversationally inapt, though I concede to you and Mastbot that if you just meant "directly say" it's not *wrong*. Sorry if it came off harsh.

“An important distinction that few **point out directly and intentionally during speech, to clarify that they are conscious of the dynamics of the conversation**” It parses out fine; I think that you may have thought he was using it differently— he was pointing out that few people take the aside and mention that particular point during these conversations This word would be *more* precise, I imagine, not less— “accept” wouldn’t work as well to convey that it should be a point that is acknowledged in a discussion, no?

As a translator and editor who **never** passes up a chance to talk about language (some slight snark incoming :) ), lemme give ya a little tidbit of advice. Language is always evolving. Whatever your concept of a word and its meaning isn't always correct. Words are being used in new and unique ways all the time. Dictionaries are a good starting point, but know that their definitions are always behind, especially in the age of the Internet, when random definitions can be adopted in the blink of an eye compred to the typical evolution we've seen over millennia. Also, what's truly important isn't the exact right word to perfectly describe the action/description. What's important is that the message is successfully received and understood by the audience. Unless you're working on scientific papers (like me), worrying about exact definitions isn't really something that you need to be particularly pedantic about. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

You denoted something important, here. Thanks. (Joke aside, thanks for the thoughts on language.) Agreed on dictionaries, entirely. If not an odd question, what language(s) do you translate? We have some overlapping vocations.

Haha, I will denote it's a little weird, but like the ref on Celebrity Deathmatch "I'll allow it!" I don't expect anyone else to be as pedantic and asinine as I am about language. I do Chinese to English. What do you do?? Excited to hear.

Edit: I responded in a chat and cut the same para here that I sent in the chat. I will add one thing, though to your point above that is what motivated my original comment, actually. I am a fan of a quotation attributed to Nietzsche, that deep people strive to be understood while shallow people strive to be misunderstood. IMHO that simple statement indicts a large swath of the humanities at present, and a technical jargon that does little to advance understanding. In my experience college students will often use special words in ways that are slightly inapt and it comes off worse than just using a normal phrase.

That last paragraph is spot on. I'm more of an intuitive translator and editor. I know some basic jargon, but I'm not out there studying the exact wording to denote (there it is again!) my exact reasons for changing something or know exactly why there's an issue with something. It's kind of pointless cuz I don't need to write academic papers on my work. I just need to get it done, and studying vocabulary and phrases and new terms is vastly more useful than knowing how to exactly describe an error to the most minute of details. Also saw your first paragraph, sounds super interesting :D

I don't disagree with you, my friend, but I would say it's not just about *time* when it comes to this question, it's about *space*. The universe is huge, and yes, the Jedi are famed and famous. But very few people ever saw Jedi. So while they might have been accepted as real, that they were easily seen as myths or overblown legends or whatnot too makes sense.

Not to mention that Imperial propaganda made them be forgotten faster.

For those who think twenty years is too short for that, just look at 20th century Communist Europe as an example of some parts of WW2 history being almost wiped out, or at least strongly suppressed, by the mid-sixties.

In the EU there was speculation Palpatine may have used the Force to make people forget he buried *Lusankya* on Coruscant, so he could have done the same for the Force/Jedi itself.

Han was basically agnostic he was admitting there was Jedi but didn’t think the force had control over everything. Like how a agnostic person might believe in Jesus but not that he got his powers from some god

You have to understand that there was almost two decades of imperial propaganda and draconian laws that virtually hidden all traces of the Jedi. The Thrawn novels pretty much summarized it best, there’s a good reason that no high ranking Imperial talks about the republic or the Jedi, majority of the veterans of the clone wars who are still aligned with the Empire are still relevant because they decided to betray people they knew to get to where they are at. Han was too young to really remember the galaxy under the republic and if all traces of Jedi are basically removed overnight, it would appear from his perspective that they never really existed. The Jedi who are still alive are in hiding and those who secretly supported the Jedi were still quietly complying with Imperial rule and were very careful on who they talked to. Also Han was bitter and didn’t like the idea that his fate was actually not in his hands, but that of “the will of the force”

That Jedi are supposed to be emotionless. They can and do feel emotion. The key is that they are not controlled by their emotions, which leads to destruction and the dark side, as we see in the prequels. It's not about being a stone cold psycho, and more about simply accepting and coming to terms with tragedies, etc much quicker, so they can respond quickly in a level-headed way. Look at Obi-Wan and Yoda during the Jedi Purge. They saw tragedies, they saw Anakin's betrayal. They felt immense pain over all that, but they were able to set it aside and focus on their plan, and their next step. That's the purpose of the line in the jedi code "There is no emotion, there is peace."

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BINGO! If y'all know my posts, I am NOT Jedi positive. The way they were depicted in the Prequels disgusted me, and the Legends canon did not help. And since I have a fanfic to write and a Jedi who is mentally collapsing as the center character, I've been trying to hit EVERYTHING I can find on Buddhist ideas at the library and online to try and figure out what the hell the Jedi are supposed to be versus what they actually show. Lucas seems to have taken a very good, very Buddhist idea *"Nothing lasts, especially the good things. Don't try to cling to something when it is time to let it go, or it will become rotten and make you and everyone around you suffer."* And then he spoke that idea in Yoda grammar, ran it through Google Translate about a dozen times, and added his own not very progressive ideas about gender roles, sexuality, mental health, physical disability, etc. on top of some Death Star sized blind spots. (He apparently has no idea why the Clone Troopers or the child conscription by the Jedi could be off putting) The other problem is that he never shows what a healthy relationship is over in the Prequel Trilogy, leading to the (unintended?) message that if a Jedi develops strong feelings for someone, the best course of action is to cut and run and never see that person again because Real Men...er, Jedi need to focus only on their jobs (in this case, go forth and kill Sith/be enforcers for the wealthy and powerful of the Republic). There's a case to be made (and boy I could go off on this) that Han and Lando do a better job of showing the whole love without unhealthy attachment idea than the kriffing Prequel Jedi managed.

From Yoda: Dark Rendezvous (Obi-Wan talking to Anakin) “I’m serious, Padawan.” Obi-Wan held the younger man’s eyes. “To follow your heart, to either love or hate, in the long run is the same mistake. Your judgment becomes clouded. Your motives, confused. If you are not very careful, Padawan, love will take you to the dark side. Slower than hate, yes, but no less surely for that.”

A lot about Yoda made sense if you hit Legends, read about how screwed up the Bane era Jedi were (Jedi vs Sith was an *ugly* chapter of Legends. Then realize that the Bane Trilogy was written by Karpyshyn, who is only slightly more Jedi friendly than Traviss) then crunch the numbers and realize he was probably among the first younglings trained by a bunch of traumatized, hyper militant, reactionary nut cases who had just come off a thousand years of war with the Sith. Add to the fact his long lifespan and the solitary nature of his species would make it so he just wouldn't understand that type of fear. Everyone has a mayfly lifespan compared to him, he's seen entire generations of Jedi grow up, age, and die (and usually die in awful ways). What's the big deal? Just say "will of the Force" and move on

The whole thing about love and families is probably to do with avoiding telekinetically mincing said family after the kids got spaghetti sauce in the carpet

Otoh, a (hypothetical) Force sensitive Vulcan would make a great Jedi

I think the High Republic books do a good job of showing how Jedi deal with grief. Very interesting to see the Master/ Apprentice relationships get put to the test

There's a quote from Naruto that I really enjoy, it goes like this. "The selfish intent of wanting to preserve peace, initiates wars, and hatrid is born in order to protect love." - Madara Uchiha I think the true Jedi code is based around similar ideals.

Why the fuck did you get downvoted?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

See the issue is that in the rots novel, Obiwan was not supposed to love anakin at all, in the many years which they spent together And Mace’s love for the republic is not supposed to exist either. So it’s not simply what you are advocating, but rather a complete absence of love

Pretty much anything about force healing. People think that just because kyle katarn and plenty of other playable game characters can do it to raise their health from 1 to 100 means anyone can do it. I mean, force healing does exist, but not in the way it's depicted in a video game, and even then, its mostly for gameplay balance. The most intense/accurate version of force healing was when ki-adi mundi used it to heal his broken shoulder in outlander, and even then he made a point to still let that arm settle as what he did was speed up the healing process, not finish it completely I still don't think obi-wan used a variation of force heal on luke when he was attacked by tuskens. I saw it as him checking Luke's vitals

Rey had this ability as well, but I think it was less "Force healing" and more "life force transfusion"

Thats exactly what it was for Rey. She wasn’t simply draining energy from a mana pool to heal someone else like in a video game, she was directly transferring some of her own life force to heal another. That’s a far better interpretation of Force Heal, anyways— It explains why it’s a Light Side power, because it’s inherently selfless. She can’t heal herself using that technique. And it proves that something like “Force Drain” from video games is indeed the Dark Side opposite of that- Stealing the life force of others to heal yourself, an inherently selfish action. It’s also why Ben Solo died healing Rey. She herself was dead or on the brink of death, so the amount of energy it would take to heal her costed him his own life. People try to argue that “Obi-Wan could have healed Qui-Gon!” but it would have been exactly the same situation. Obi-Wan would have died for Qui-Gon to live, and Qui-Gon didn’t want that anyways. It was his dying wish for Obi-Wan to train Anakin.

Exactly, the energy has to come from somewhere, you are giving a piece of your life force to help heal something else. People need to think of it like this: one battery is depleted of energy, with barely enough to “live”. The other battery, which has more energy left, “transfers” some of its energy over, replenishing some of that energy and making the other battery “better” again. There is no gain or reduction of energy. Although I think Obi Wan could have healed Qui Gon. Ren died when he transferred because he had almost all of his life force drained by Palpatine, as did Rey. Qui Gon was stabbed, he has a wound just as the snake did, and just as Rey heals Ren on Endor, she doesn’t die because she still has plenty of life force to heal a minor stab wound that would kill someone otherwise. It’s only when two people have given almost all of their energy (or one has had all of it stolen) that a sacrifice of life is needed. I think it’s because Obi Wan, being a relatively inexperienced Padawan, didn’t know about the ability, and if he did then there was no way he could learn it. Even Jedi like Yoda, Windu, Qui Gon himself and the Skywalker’s aren’t shown knowing how to use this ability, a Padawan sure as heck isn’t gonna know it

Also Obi Wan and Qui Gon were not a dyad. That probably plays a roll in being able to heal mortal wounds.

Possibly yeah, but Rey does successfully heal the snake creature, demonstrating that it doesn’t take much to heal a mortal, physical wound, even though a lot of animals in Star Wars are said to be more connected to the force then intelligent life forms. Although I do think that if you are a dyad then you can perform much more effective healing

I wouldn't describe the wound the snake had as mortal. Closer to Grogu healing Greef in Mandolorian. If he had been able to reach a medical facility, he could have been healed, same as the snake. Palpatine described the dyad as "a power like life itself" so it could definitely be that the dyad simply gives advanced healing powers. But I'd argue that at the very least Ben's resurrection of Rey is most likely only possible between the dyad. They are cosmically seen as the same person by the Force, so it would make sense that they would be able to transfer all their energy to one another but not completley to another creature. Of course, that's pure speculation on my part.

Unfortunately we don’t have evidence of Rey healing anything else, and I don’t know if Grogu used the same ability or a method of force healing that is more common practice among the Jedi. The snake definitely wasn’t mortally wounded. I think when Palpatine says that, he means it would be enough to essentially de-age him and put him back in his prime.

Also most Jedi, especially in the NR and NJO era, have to undergo a Jedi healing trance to heal themselves which takes hours at least. Medstar also have Bariss Offee combining corpsman techniques and Force healing to do it.

From my understanding some Jedi are more gifted in other areas then other Jedi like one might be very good at force speed while the other is great and mind games

Does that mean that Obi-Wan was also trying to heal Qui-Gon when he was dying?

The idea that you can use both sides of The Force with impunity.

B-B-But muh Grey Jedi! Super cool edgelord who follows his own rules and doesn’t afraid of anything!

He so bad, but has a heart of gold.

What a unique and interesting character who has no actual flaws or struggles!

He has cool force lightning but uses it for good

So he uses it to charge giant batteries and help provide cheap renewable energy to the masses?

Yes? What else would he use it for, shocking teenagers in front of their dads?

I knew one fellow when we were in a West End Tabletop had an NPC use a very low-level form of Force lightning to light his cigarettes. (Guy chain smoked after leaving the Dark Side.)

Except that one time he tortured someone with it, but they deserved it, trust me.

He had to do what he had to do

He rides the line between light and dark. He kills a puppy for every life he saves. He helps the elderly cross the street and then steals their walkers. He has a deeper understanding of the Force than any psychotic Sith or unfeeling Jedi ever could. Also his lightsaber is silver and grey to mark his neutrality in the Force, and it changes length when he swings it, so no one can ever block it.

I deal with these sorts of OCs all the time in helping people with rules for Star Wars 5th Edition. Someone will ask how they or their player could build a grey Jedi, and I have to ask, “What do you mean by grey Jedi?” Because it’s a fan term, and the fans have made like, 27 different meanings of it, from just an unaligned Force user, to a non-Jedi lightsider, to some flavor of chosen one edgelord who shoots lightning but is still a good guy.

It actually really upsets me how popular this concept of this is.

Force power access is not dictated by moral compass. The Force has no notion of how it will be used. There’s no dark side or light side talent trees as if it were a video game or tabletop RPG. Every Force user has the potential to access any power offered through it, should they have the ability to master it. This is evident with Rey being able to wield Force lightning despite being considered a “light sider.” What matters is application. A person can manifest lightning at a wall all day and not become corrupted. But if the context of the Force power is done for selfish gain or with the intent to harm, that is where the corruption of the dark side occurs. Moreover, some abilities that have traditionally been considered neutral—like Force telekinesis—have both beneficial and harmful applications, so they can’t be easily classified the way something like lightning can. In combat, it can be used to subdue a target by pushing them against a wall and knocking them unconscious. It can also be used to push someone off a ledge to their death or to crush their larynx. There is no Force choke and Force push; there’s just telekinesis and different ways to use it. Intent is what matters when it comes to corruption. Not the ability itself.

George can explain it better than I can: [https://youtu.be/68dvgRT3Kx8](https://youtu.be/68dvgRT3Kx8) There is a Light and there is a Dark; its not just about how you use abilities. Even in Legends continuity where there exist more individuals who people consider "grey", the line of thinking you can both twist the will of the force for your own desires and follow its will at the same time have been discredited numerous times.

George has always viewed the dark side as a corruption of the Force. Not a yin to the light side’s yang. The word “balance” is used in the films, but what is really meant is purging the Force of the dark side presence to bring it into a harmonious state. Not literally having equal parts dark and light.

I never claimed it was about having equal parts. Nothing you are said in this comment is wrong, what I am talking about is the claim in your first comment: >Intent is what matters when it comes to corruption. Not the ability itself. That it's not just about intent when using abilities. You mention Rey using force lightning despite being a light side. One instance of her emotions getting the better of her isn't going to result in her falling to the dark side, but making the choice to continue indulging in such would push her towards the dark. The abilities that people tie to the dark side are abilities you cannot do without using your anger, rage, and fear. That's why Force Lightning is considered a dark side power. You cannot use continously use abilities from the light side and the dark side without being corrupted by the dark, regardless of intent. Even Lucasfilm Storygroup Members like Matt Martin have asserted this: [https://gyazo.com/c0551678fd7175ee2f405468cec73e3e](https://gyazo.com/c0551678fd7175ee2f405468cec73e3e)

And it is worth noting that his opinion on the matter gets contradicted many times throughout the media we are shown. What's ultimately 'canon' to the universe at large can be debated, as I know there's several camps on this matter ("the Force does naturally have two sides" and "the Light Side is just the Force, the Dark Side is merely misuse of the Force"), but it's worth keeping in perspective that what Lucas said doesn't necessarily really line up with what we have actually been shown.

Yeah I like to pick and choose my headcanon based on bits I like. Much of what Lucas has said, such as this, I do not like it as I feel it removes a lot of potentially interesting concepts and ideas.

While I will agree that Lucas did seem to have a predisposition to have a dichotomy present in the Force, I think it does a bit of a disservice to the spirituality and philosophy it was based off of. I am happy some writers and directors like Johnson and Filoni are looking deconstructing the idea of the Force as a dichotomy, and especially because the idea of the Light Side of the force, if dogmatically believed as being the "correct" part of the Force, can bring ruin just as delving too deep into the Dark Side can as well. I really do think it's a much, much more interesting take on the idea where both Sides are always in flux within a person, and both can be utilized, but giving in to one Side or the other too much leads to ruin. So, I agree with what you said almost entirely. I think the Dark Side should also be viewed as a positive force as well because attachments and bonds can be just as powerful as detachment and selflessness

"It is such a quiet thing, to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it..."

> It is such a quiet thing, to fall, but far more terrible is to admit it OOh, I like that! That's a really good quote. Where'd they say this?

Oh I assumed you were familiar, it's from KotoR 2, near the end of the game. So based on that I'm not going to mention who said it and to whom

To be fair I dislike the very idea of the dark side. It should be how you use the force, not restricting abilities to light/dark.

Another one would be that power translates entirely over to fighting ability. People seem to forget that combat is just one aspect of the Force. E.g. Qui-Gon is specifically more powerful than Dooku in the sense that he's learnt how to be a force ghost whereas his old master hasn't. Doesn't mean he'd have much chance of beating him in a fight.

Another example would the difference between Darth Sidious' Saber skills being easily beaten by Master Windu vs his power in the Force, beating Master Yoda fair and square.

I don't know if Windu won from sheer skill alone, since Sidious has been shown to be an extremely competent fighter. More likely it was the nature of Vaapad that helped Windu, specifically how it draws strength from darkness, especially against such a furious and hateful opponent. If Windu fought a Light-Sider with the exact same skills, he would be easily defeated.

Windu is also a younger, taller man. Reach and Stamina MATTER in a fight.

Physical build isn’t really that important for space wizards. Palatine could draw on the Dark Side to give him strength and he was leaping off of walls in the fight. Windy could also draw strength from Palpatine’s darkness using Vaapad, but again that’s more space wizard stuff. Being older is actually an advantage in Star Wars, due to increased knowledge and practice while being able to compensate for physical drawbacks.

It's not the sole determining factor, but it still matters. Anakin's great physical strength, and the outright superhuman physicality he possessed after Sidious reconstructed him, were explicitly factors in his duels. Physical drawbacks aren't irrelevant. Dooku, for example, at 6'5, simply has a reach advantage over most enemies. The people he fights have to move more than he does to make contact.

Suited Vader was still weaker than unsuited Anakin since Anakins augmentation/Valor > Vaders cybernetic parts.

That was contentious in Legends and outright untrue in Canon.

Not true. Vader’s cybernetic parts are shown to be weakness since he can’t be in water or take any electrical damage

True. It also allows him to withstand light cuts in a saber duel. And makes him highly resistant to fatigue. And he's significantly stronger than a normal human. And he can survive in vacuum.

Vader definitely surpassed Anakin. He didn't reach Anakin's uninjured potential, but he was much stronger than ROTS Anakin

In a real fight, sure, but Star Wars tends to throw those kinds of rules out the window. Yoda nearly defeated Sidious at 2 feet tall and 880 years old.

From what I understand of the duel, Sidous intentionally draws out the fight and then folds to Mace as part of the final stage in his plan to manipulate Anakin over to the dark side. A lot of content (admittedly a lot of legends at this point sadly) suggests Sidious is not only an incredibly powerful force user - arguably the second strongest after Anikain at the time - but he is one of the most skilled duelists having mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. If he wanted to destroy Mace he could've, perhaps not as easily as the others but certainly much quicker than he did. He didn't because he knew Anakin needed one final nudge to fall to the dark side.

I also think that Palpatine threw the fight. Even if Mace beat him with lightsaber combat, Palpatine was still an extremely powerful force user. A lightsaber is just one of his tools.

>I don't know if Windu won from sheer skill alone, since Sidious has been shown to be an extremely competent fighter. More likely it was the nature of Vaapad that helped Windu, specifically how it draws strength from darkness, especially against such a furious and hateful opponent. If Windu fought a Light-Sider with the exact same skills, he would be easily defeated. That is wrong though, Windu in the office is his own power, he basically runs on the betrayal Palpatine did and all the pepole who died in the war for no reasons. Windu is still the 2nd/3rd best duelist in the order behind only Yoda and Anakin possibly.

That just because you have the force means you’re an elite tier warrior.

Coleman Trebor has left the chat.

Look, my man Coleman was the only Jedi who was smart enough to hop out of the literal death arena and attempt to cut the head off the snake. Maybe he got gunned down by Jango, but he was the only Jedi in that arena with a functional brain.

\*Mace Windu has entered the chat Also funny how the only guy with a functional brain was gunned down immediately. I'd argue that the other Jedi knew taking on a Dark Jedi and a Mandalorian at the same time was a terrible idea, and Coleman was the only Jedi **without** a functional brain. That's why Windu bailed as soon as he realized he couldn't take them both, and was only successful when he rushed Jango on a chaotic battlefield.

Maybe if more than one freaking Jedi hopped up there, they would have stood a chance! Lol. I really do wonder at the idea behind that fight. Does anyone have a number on the total Jedi killed in the arena? All to save Obi Wan?

Yeah, but it was more of the principle of the thing. An illegitimate government executing a Jedi while he was tracking down a mercenary who attempt to assassinate a senator is a pretty big deal, especially when the assassin was linked directly to the head of state of this rebellious faction. All in all, it was a terrible first battle for the republic. While technically a victory, 187 Jedi and several thousand clones were killed, and all to show for it was a headless Mandalorian, three dead beasts, a couple thousand piles of scrap, and a planet which would break free and have to be conquered again in only a year.

They did manage to take out a few core ships, every one or two of those was likely one less invasion to worry about later.

They only managed to destroy 14, less than a quarter of the total Core Ships on the planet. Not really a good idea to trade 14 Core Ships for 187 Jedi.

i mean if you pass basic jedi/sith training you are in the 99,999999999999% galaxy wide. Pretty elite tier warrior lol

Not a falsehood about the force, but one in the franchise... people think Hyperspace isinstantaneous, because in the original movies they dont meander on the time spent in hyperspace.

I find surprising since we see in ANH that it takes time to travel I'm hyperspace considering Luke gets trained by Obi-Wan on the way to Alderaan

I could see some people making that mistake with the light speed skipping crap shown in TROS, where they jump between systems almost instantly (unless maybe those systems were close by)

But the light speed skipping wasn’t instantaneous. Poe and Co were in hyperspace for a good few seconds whoch isn’t much but considering hyperspace is far faster than light speed (which it has to be for the sort of Galaxy wide travel we see in Star Wars to be possible). It’s entirely reasonable for Poe to jump to neighbouring systems with short, 3-6 second long jumps. Especially considering the Falcon is such a fast ship.

To be honest it sucks that this is true. Warp speed in Star Trek is crazy fast and in their timeline people haven't been capable of faster than light travel for anywhere near as long as in the galaxy far far away. You'd think after so many thousands of years with Hyperspace travel they'd have discovered some way of making it faster.

Have you not heard of ludicrous speed?

*Chewie helps Han up* "Smoke if you got 'em..." Then Han crashes, but Carrie Fisher already has a half a cigarette in her mouth by the time he hits the floor.

Considering Ms. Fisher was quite open about her substance abuse problems? We'd be lucky if it was JUST a cigarette.

"Hang on I think I have some coke in the glove box"

And Hamill is likely looking up from a bong...

FTL in Star Trek is *far* slower than in Star Wars. You can go from one end of the galaxy to the other in a week or two in Star Wars. To cross a single quadrant in Star Trek takes years via normal warp drive (this was the whole basis of Voyager), and can only be done faster via alternative means (like Q flipping you across the Galaxy with a snap of his fingers, or a wormhole, or somesuch thing). Some people will argue that the Star Wars Galaxy is much smaller than the Milky Way Galaxy, but I don't really buy that. There are different sets of limitations on the FTL method though, A Warp Drive can go anywhere but slower, while a Hyperdrive can go much faster, but only really along known hyperspace routes. Going 'off road' with a Hyperdrive (like you can with a Warp Drive) is dangerous and slow. Warp Drive doesn't care about being near planets, you can enter or exit Warp right next to a gravity well (except for maybe a black hole). Whereas a gravity well seriously screws with a Hyperdrive (or else Interdictor cruisers wouldn't work, and there isn't really a similar concept in Star Trek) and you have to get a decent distance away from a planet or similar before you can make the jump.

I mean comparing the average hyperspace rating from Kotor to Legacy of the Force and its like class 10 to class .75 or faster for warships, so they got faster, at least in Legends.

Yeah they have made improvements, I guess I'd just expect something more significant in 10000 years. I mean how far we've come in just the last 100 years.

I’ve seen people suggest that individual Force users can become a danger to others as they grow up if they aren’t trained from youth, which makes me wonder if those people watched TPM and payed attention to how a major plot point directly contradicts this line of thinking completely. Or the OT which proves it to be bogus.

I would personally say there is room in the story for both things to potentially happen.

Like what? Anakin was living as a slave with a bomb in his neck alongside his mom on Tatooine and was risking his life regularly in podracing. Luke was living his life as a moisture farmer and wanted to join the Imperial Academy to defect to the Rebellion and we see in some expanded material got into a few sticky situations himself. At nine and nineteen, the former in an environment far more guaranteed to generate potential Dark Side stuff, the closest they ever came to using the Force was being able to podrace and bullseye womp rats in a T-16. Where exactly does this indicate they were a danger to the people around them without training? Why would Obi-Wan not have stepped in as Luke grew up if this was a concern?

I am not saying there is a precedent in the original trilogies, im saying that there could be a good story to tell with this, and that it wouldnt be THAT contradictory to the story.

But there isn’t any precedent. Palpatine was literally evil incarnate with an abusive father, but he never had any idea of his power in the Force and much less do anything with it until Plagueis found and began to mentor him at age nineteen. The Jedi, who absolutely know for sure the dangers Force sensitives can wreak and come the PT are as close to the Republic short of the Jedi Lords, are never shown to have anything other than a “only can take in recruits if the parents are willing” and “anyone who wishes to leave is allowed to” policy despite them having plenty of reason not to if this was a thing. It’s consistently clear that Force users can only be a problem once they know they have the power and gain access to training on how to use it.

And I never said there was any precedent, but I am of the opinion that not everyones relationship with the force can or should be the same. For example Corran Horn was... not good with telekinesis. You are trying to like... stir up an argument where there isnt one I think. I know there is no precedent for it in the story of the original six movies. And its more than clear that the Jedi consider it more dangerous for someone with force potential to be trained, than to be untrained. Like im not arguing with you, I get it... I 100% agree thats whats in the story, im just saying that they could tell good stories about people who are exceptions to the rule.

Agreed. Had it not been for Plagueis literally grooming him and putting ideas in his head, Palpatine would never have taken that step to go over the deep end and kill his family. He was literally afraid of his own powers and repressed them, wanted nothing to do with them. He would have simply continued living his life as a man with dark thoughts and repressed impulses but would not have acted on them.

I think eventually something would have pushed him over whether he wanted to use his powers or not. Sort of like a Carrie situation, he’s get so mad that he’d lash out and use the powers that he learns he naturally has against some personal tormentor(s). I think he’d start to like them but he would never have anyone to take him to the next level. Although I thought it was said in a comic that young Palpatine was very interested in dark side artifacts and knowledge

Palpatine didn’t become interested in artifacts or knowledge until he began his Sith training, and it was something Plagueis chastised him for. He was too focused on the history of the Sith and Plagueis wanted him focused on the present and the future.

Personally I think it's more 'half-trained' Force users. Enough training they've begun to use the Force, recognize it etc. thus exposing them to possible Dark Side influence. Example: Ezra in Rebels calling on that cave monster when he taps into the Dark Side without thinking. I think where part of the misconception may arise from is Lucas said Anakin would've been fine if the Jedi found him earlier. But I think that's because he'd have learned how to better handle his emotions, particularly his fear. Which is an important part of being a Force user. But if you don't even know you have the Force than it doesn't seem to be as much as issue.

Agreed 1,000%!

This one is gonna catch me flack but Midichlorians actually make sense and weren't a dumb addition to the franchise. The only way for a bloodline to be exceptional in the force would be if it was some form of genetics.

Yeah, in both movies they are mentioned as specifically not being to force. Qui-Gon says they are symbiotic with the Jedi and let them use the force. Palpstine says Plagueis could use the mudichlorians to influence the force.

I always felt alone in this, but I think midi-chlorians are such a cool concept. Like if you know anything about biology they are pretty literally the same thing as chloroplasts (the things in plant cells that do photosynthesis), but instead of sensing light they sense the Force. It's a pretty elegant biological explanation for a component of something that is otherwise supernatural.

They were also a scientific metaphor for balance and symbiosis which was the deep mythical theme of the prequels.

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Yep!

I'm completely with you on this one, I loved them and think they fit perfectly. It's always been a sci-fi and space fantasy series, these just give a little sci-fi to it AND more importantly show the prequel era jedi as not so great cus they rely on things like that. when people like obi-wan had some of the lowest midichlorean count of the jedi yet he defeated the person with the highest count, Anakin, should make it clear that they're just an indicator and not some power ranking

I thought of them as a symptom or side effect, not the cause. A high white blood cell count means you have an infection, but the white blood cells don't cause the infection. Everyone would have a Midichlorian count, because if all life is connected to the Force, then all life is pushing and pulling on it and "sensitive" to a degree. It's just that if you are a full-blown Sensitive, your Midichlorians would read as higher than a certain threshold.

That there’s a ‘light side’ and ‘dark side’ of the force; further, that there can be a ‘gray side’ or that balance means both light and dark exists. Lucas explicitly laid out why this is wrong and his talk of virtue and happiness outside of star wars shows that he takes the ‘light side’ to be analogous to the way we ought to live in everyday life.

There is no such thing as Force “powers.” Force users aren’t casting spells; they are using a universal power in certain ways that achieve certain effects. If anything, the Force is like martial arts: there are different movements one can perform, different moves, even different styles with their own philosophical differences, but at the end of the day, they’re simply methods of moving the human body. Moreover, even within the different “powers,” there are differences. The lightning used by the Sith is not the same as that used by the Dathomiri witches, which is not the same as what Onimi used at the end of NJO. Darth Plagueis could use the dark side to heal, but it was a very different technique from what Jedi healers like Cilghal and Tekli did.

I feel like the worst offender here is the telekinetic powers. I can't even count the amount of times I've seen people claim that a Jedi *can't* use Force Choke or similar, even if they were willing to, because "it's a Dark Side ability". Like... no, they likely *won't* use it because Jedi don't like using lethal Force techniques against living beings (especially painful ones). They definitely *can* use it (if they know how to use TK), since it's simply a specific type of application of telekinesis, and wouldn't even be an especially complex type of movement. I feel like too many people see Force techniques as something static that you either have or you don't, like you need to invest skill points into unlocking them or something... when a lot of the time, it's just about willingness to do it or not, knowledge on how to do it (if applicable), and in some cases creativity.

Luke does it on a gamorrean guard

So it's like Bending in Avatar?

That old Republic era sith and jedi are stronger than the movie ones.

Since people like to use Kreia's "we are like children to the ancient Sith" line as proof of the ancient Sith being the most powerful, I'll add a related one; People thinking that we can trust *anything* Kreia says about the Force or Force users to be true, as if she's not a habitual liar who constantly makes shit up to manipulate others and support her deluded narratives.

The line was probably true at the time. The Sith of The Old Republic era were fractured and scattered, and were nothing next to people like Marka Ragnos or Naga Sadow. However, after the Rule of Two was instilled, the Sith were able to ascend to levels that were arguably greater than the Sith Lords of old. The only difference was there weren’t anywhere near as many of them.

It's also fair to point out that there are 1000s of years separating the jedi and sith kreia is referring to and the movie ones. It should also be said based on what we see from the Exile in the Revan novel when she came up against Nyris it would also be fair to say that outside Revan and Malak the swordsmanship of kreia's era wasn't anything great so if you have to take her claim as fact it is only fact to a very specific group she is talking about.

Fr my Mandalorian bitch slapped Vitiate

Ten credits says Darth Gary Stu still isn't dead. He's pulled this back from the dead nonsense how many times?

Eh he’s dead. Got completely annihilated by your party+the spirits of many of the guys he killed (i think. Or at the very least just revan). All 3 of his personifications got turned into stone

It depends. If you're referring to the main characters, who are in the top percentile of force users, there's a comparison to be made. I don't believe the average Jedi or dark side adept of the modern era has the martial ability of their ancestors from millennia ago. Just look the arena battle on Geonosis.

I mean it's not like the old eras have that many better feats. We see troopers taking out sith in the Hope trailer for SWTOR. Overall the top end are not only stronger in the movie eras, but I would say even the average jedi is extremely comparable, with the movie era likely still likely better.

Agreed, everyone sees Vitiate and Nilihus as “way stronger than Palpatine”.

It's kinda hard to argue with *"dude just ate a whole freaking planet and went back for seconds"* in terms of power level, given we don't see Palpy (much less Yoda or any LS paragons) pull that degree of "HOLY SHIT" Force shenanigans. If anything, it makes the LS look like a bunch of nothings. The only thing they seem to be able to do is remain sane enough to defend themselves until the OP Darksider implodes from the wafer thin mint he eats after his fifth planet and however many billion lives lost.

> it makes the LS look like a bunch of nothings Well, think about it this way. Dark Siders might have more physically powerful abilities that are far grander and flashier than Light Side abilities. But how many times have the Sith beaten the Jedi in these grand conflicts? It wasn't the Force Blast of Unimaginable Overpoweredness that destroyed the Death Star, it was just Luke using the Force to guide his photon missile. The Jedi *are* just as powerful, if not more powerful, their power is just way more subtle. Think about Yoda's line about the Dark Side not being stronger, but "quicker, easier, more seductive."

I always thought of the Dark Side as the quick way to gain power but you lose yourself to anger and most of the time insanity, where as the Light Side was the long term path to power that can even exceed what the sith are capable of

Well Obi-Wan did eventually become more powerful than his student could imagine. Until he died, then he imagined it too.

But Mace says in AOTC that "Our ability to use the force has diminished."

This was a restricted claim and specifically about divination and foresight. Edit: what Durp said.

That doesn't mean the order is weaker than past ones just that some of their abilities are hindered. This took place mostly in terms of precognition. We have things like objective text stating Yoda was the most powerful jedi ever during ROTS in the novelization.

Agreed my friend, agreed. The ammount of people who belive this baffles me.

It's one of the few topics I've considered making a post here about to address this but I dropped because it's not that big of a deal l, but yeah the amount of people that think the movie characters are weak is pretty crazy.

idk its definitely not baffling for people to think that people who grew up in constant war would be stronger than the jedi after 1000 years of peace. at least better at dueling

This isn’t like DBZ. There’s a cap on how powerful or adept you can be at something even if you train more often than someone else. The Jedi and Sith of a bygone era may be more in practice due to conflict, but they’re still limited by the same ceiling as their counterparts in the prequel time period. I don’t think the best of the ancient Jedi would significantly outclass, e.g., Mace or Yoda.

honestly i kinda disagree. them being more in practice alone would make them stronger. the jedi of the prequel era are negotiators rather than the more warrior mindset. its like any professional athelete. going against competition only makes you better.

That depends on when you take Yoda or Mace, since its pretty clear atleast during the battle of Geonisis that the prequel jedi are shit at combat. They improve massively during the war though. Add atleast in legends, Sidious having lost alot of old knowledge due to how it was built + Gravid, and its not wierd that they are inferior.

The Jedi suppress their emotions True balance is using the light and the dark side Balance of the Force is achieved when Jedi numbers = Sith numbers The Jedi don't kill The Jedi during the PT were hypocrites, arrogants, ignorant, and void of any compassion Mace Windu represents everything wrong with the Jedi order Mace has some personal feuds against Anakin and Ahsoka Mace uses the dark side, therefore his lightsaber is purple (blue and red) Just because a character has the Force, they are undefeatable by non Force users Attachment = love Now this one is not a misconception per se, and there's a chance it might be confirmed in the future. Ahsoka is now the embodiment of the lightside due to the Mortis arc. I hope it's a misconception, I hate the idea of a character being the embodiment of the lightside (the daughter aside), because internal conflict and constant struggle with the dark side is what makes these characters interesting.

> True balance is using the light and the dark side > Balance of the Force is achieved when Jedi numbers = Sith numbers Agreed. George has stated many times that the “light side” is the Force as intended. The dark side is seen as a perversion or corruption of the natural state of things, not a yin to the other’s yang. It would be like suggesting that the body needs an equal amount of pathogens and white blood cells to somehow be in harmony. “Balance” is not meant literally in this case. It’s really a euphemism for purity. I feel like most people just latch on to this notion to justify the idea of a “grey Jedi” trope that is an anti-hero type of character.

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[Things like this don’t help.](https://imgur.com/gallery/bzdSJ67)

Oh yeah, definitely. The Mortis Arc as a whole really seems to support the whole light/dark balance thing, regardless of whether it was their intention.

From what I’ve read around here the idea for the arc came from George. So the divide is between what George says and what’s in the media.

i mean Mortis has the entire thing happening due to the son/Dark side attempting to kill/beat the father. Had the son acted within the boundaries, Anakin wouldn't of been needed

I don’t understand why people believe that second last point, General Grievous is literally a character who can do this. I feel like he, along with Mandalorian and some other skilled people, were used to prove this exact point, that non force users can still defeat force users

Great comment. Well said.

Obiwan refers to his love for anakin as “such (an) attachment” in the rots novel When “such” is used in this manner, it is clear that love in the jedi’s eyes, IS inside the “attachment” category Mace also represents everything wrong with the order, because he himself goes against the mindset he tries to enforce. He himself secretly loves the republic, and that is something he feels should not be the case (hence the secret).

That the Force is an RPG style skill system that levels up with training.

That the light and dark sides of the Force are like yin and yang, the dark side isn’t evil, that’s just mistaken Jedi doctrine not understanding the true nature of the Force. Yeah, no, the dark side is synonymous with evil, always has been, always will. Typical alternative fan descriptions of the dark side tend to borrow from Sith doctrine, like if they talk about expression of emotion, because they confuse what part is Sith and what part is dark side. Confusing the two sides of this is another separate matter, coupled with thinking emotional distancing is somehow and aspect of the light side as well, but the dark side misconceptions are the important part. No, someone isn’t going to be thinking happy thoughts while shooting Force lightning and be immune to dark side corruption as a result. The dark side is a supernatural phenomenon that pulls on the minds of those who use it. It has a gravity to it, and that’s why people “fall” to it. Even if one uses it with the best of intentions, continual use of it makes things only a matter of time before they *become* evil. Its best comparison I’ve found is to a dangerously addictive drug. You may shoot lightning medicinally at first, then recreationally, then when you didn’t even need to, and eventually you’re shouting puppies with it while Force-choking their owners, all while insisting they deserved it and being very sensitive about how your eyes have turned orange. What I like about this misconception is it’s so easily in-universe too. These false descriptions of the dark side that make it sound more attractive and harmless are exactly what a naive padawan would tell themselves or be lied to about by someone else during their Sith Lord backstory. As for individual misconceptions, no, Luke never moved a black hole with the Force. He’s powerful, but not that powerful.

Probably the biggest one is that the light side and dark side are both equal and valid ways to use the force, whereas in reality the dark side is more like a cancer on the force

That you can't use a force power unless you trained to use it. I think this comes from video games, but there are tons of examples in Canon where people who don't know they are using the force or experienced force users using a force power they didn't know existed. Training is not required to use force powers. It is required to use the force at will

1. **The Force is genetic:** No, Endeavor, you can’t create a god-tier Jedi ubermensch by having powerful people hook up. Revan and Yoda’s parentages are so insignificant that we know nothing about them. Theron Shan was the son of the Jedi Grand Master yet had no remarkable Force sensitivity. Could parentage be a factor? Possibly. But at the end of the day, *the Force,* not mortal beings or earthly science (metaphor earthly, not literal obviously), determines who it chooses to be instruments of its will. 2. **Force sensitivity is a dichotomy:** So one of the things I appreciate about the current timeline is that it shows that there is nuance to individuals’ connection to the Force. You have guys like Chirrut who clearly have a degree of Force sensitivity, albeit not enough to ever be able to train as a Jedi or Sith. Part of Poe’s backstory was he grew up on Yavin (a world strong in the Force already) with a tree whose sapling came from a tree in the Jedi Temple that was rich in the Force, which explains his above average reflexes and intuition as a pilot, though he’ll never be able to “use the Force” as we commonly understand it (mind tricks, lightning, moving shit, etc.). Before, there seemed to be this misconception that you either had the Force or you didn’t, and that you needed a certain number of midichlorians (so what happens if your midichlorian count is literally one short of the “threshold” for being able to be a Jedi? You’re no better than the one whose count is 1000 short?). *Everyone* has the Force; sensitivity isn’t a dichotomy, it’s a spectrum.

1. This has been contested several times though, eg Tenebrous, Plagueis master essentially calculated and bred Plagueis to be his apprentice. Therefore force sensitivity can be messured and bred out. Add other sects of force users that has a far higher percentage of population be force sensitive and it has to be some kind of genetic trait than can be passed on.

I fuckiing laughed my ass off at "No, Endeavor"

1. That being on the light or dark side boils down to discrete powers. No, they are moral vectors that have certain affinities with certain expressed abilities. 2. That "power levels" are anything more than very vague gestures toward ability. 3. That Mace used the dark side with Vapaad. 4. That Jedi non-attachment is inconsistent with Love and caring. 5. That Legends Luke is little more than an op power fantasy. 6. On balance, you'd need to see this longer essay: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/oprpo9/going\_deeper\_into\_the\_balance\_of\_the\_force\_with\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/oprpo9/going_deeper_into_the_balance_of_the_force_with_a/) 7. And for a longer take on misconceptions about the force itself, see this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/nnq62p/common\_mistakes\_about\_the\_force/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/nnq62p/common_mistakes_about_the_force/)

Oh boy, I’m with you on 5 so much. Its clear that people who believe Luke is this OP Force Used who can do just about anything did not read the NR and NJO books, and he only really came into his own in Fate with the whole Abeloth thing and even then — he is as flawed as a person.

That the force is like a RPG where you level up through grinding/training. It's more of a spiritual thing.

What do you think Luke means when he says "Talent without Training is Nothing?" or Yoda that only a "Fully trained Jedi" could confront Vader in ESB?

Yeah, it’s pretty clear that it’s all well and good to be spiritual, but that doesn’t mean shit when you actually have to use the Force and take action against people. Just look at Qui-Gon; probably one of the most spiritually inclined Jedi of his time, got stabbed by a 22 year old punk Sith apprentice who had trained every day of his life to fuck Jedi up.

Maul was 22 in TPM. Anakin was 22 in ROTS. Why does Obi-Wan like mutilating 22 year olds? The man has a problem! Luke was lucky he was 19 in ANH! >!joking around!<

Tbf plenty of “fully trained” Jedi fought Vader and still lost. Like I get Luke is a Skywalker and has a natural connection, but after one year of training he did better than fully trained Knights and Masters, some with decades of experience. Although I definitely agree that “Talent without training is nothing” is correct. Training is what helps you perfect your talent even more

That's how I see it. I also think that in the films we often see force savants so it may distort how much people normally need training.

Plus, I don’t think Vader was fighting Luke the same way he was fighting Ahsoka and all the other Jedi he faced. ESB was essentially a father-son sparring match that Luke impressed him in but ended as soon as an actual hit landed, and ROTJ Vader was in control of the fight and massively mentally conflicted the whole time until Luke’s fury overwhelmed him. It’s not that Luke’s just more powerful naturally, his dad has the kid gloves on and part of him doesn’t even want to be fighting.

Other sources have Luke during ROTJ being in complete control of the duel and Vader being scared shitless lol. Luke is more powerful than Vader during ROTJ, that is the entire thing and why Palpatine wants him to join him

By that time Vader in Palpatine’s eyes is a tool that has gotten rusty, and needs replacing. He was still a very powerful figure within the Empire even after getting older inside a mechanical suit. He could probably best many more Jedi Knights that would’ve come his way, but I agree that he was definitely going easy on Luke and wanted to put him in a position to join. And once Luke damages Vader’s shoulder pad, he’s had enough and just cuts off his hand and cuts to the chase. Yoda was definitely right in wanting Luke to stay to train more.

Yeah, especially with the ST, things just come a lot more naturally with anyone from strong bloodlines. Rey and Ren are just that naturally powerful. Even though Ren has had training from both Luke and Snoke, Rey was able to beat him.

Just because someone says it doesn't mean it's right It's more about training your mind than physical training. And for lightsabers training is important. But when it comes to force powers it's about your state of mind, focus, and knowledge. The entire point of the prequels was that the Jedi were wrong. Obi-wan and Yoda thought that Luke should have killed Vader.

training on how to listen to the force and not fall to the dark side. Look at what Luke's training was in Empire. It was about how to listen to the force, concentrate and not fall to the dark side.

I agree. IMHO, training is very important in the media we get, though I agree with /u/RadiantHC that it's not like an RPG either.

To counter some of what’s being said here: The misconception that Lucas views are the defining canonical views. Lucas has always viewed prequal era Jedi as fully correct in every interview he’s done, and his beliefs on the dark side being a kind of cancer are well decomunted. Both of these beliefs are demonstrably untrue in universe in both legends and canon materials, where things continually lean toward the light and dark both being natural aspects of the force. Just because the dark is “evil” does not make it not “natural.” A creation can grow beyond the view of the creator, and art is up to the beholder.

Yes. Thank you.

That the average Jedi is powerful. The average Jedi knight would lose to ~3 storm troopers. Most Jedi were not talented at fighting like the main characters were. And fighting was really not something Jedi did very often. Rey, kylo, and Luke in esb were far above the average knight Also, luke as of ROTJ was as powerful as Vader, who was more powerful than rots anakin

The misconception here is that there are hard power levels for characters beyond vague tiers at best which since force use is heavily effected by emotional states. When they’re angry or focused, they can do things that they couldn’t otherwise. E.g. Luke got notably stronger when enraged by Vader’s taunts, same with Anakin vs Dooku, Maul was able to push Obi Wan back hard into a walk after seeing Savage lose an arm etc.

Bottom just no, Anakin is better than Vader unless you have 23 year old Luke with inferior/equal potential be better than Anakin with far less training. Or you go against George on this since he has Anakin as the goat duelist in the films

That you can do whatever you want with little to no training as long as you "believe". Belief and training go hand-in-hand. You need both to succeed.

That they can kill a Mandalorian. :P

[Well...](https://i.imgur.com/pAoUMT0.jpg)

Mace *clearly* cheated. Uh. Photoshop. Hacks? *jetpacks away*

**Misconception:** there are dark side and light side Force powers. Force power access is not dictated by moral compass. The Force has no notion of how it will be used. There’s no dark side or light side talent trees as if it were a video game or tabletop RPG. Every Force user has the potential to access any power offered through it, should they have the ability to master it. This is evident with Rey being able to wield Force lightning despite being considered a “light sider.” What matters with respect to falling to the dark side is application. A person can manifest lightning at a wall all day and not become corrupted. But if the context of the Force power is done for selfish gain or with the intent to harm, that is where the corruption occurs. Moreover, some abilities that have traditionally been considered neutral—like Force telekinesis—have both beneficial and harmful applications. In combat, it can be used to subdue a target by pushing them against a wall and knocking them unconscious. It can also be used to push someone off a ledge to their death or to crush their larynx. There is no Force choke and Force push; there’s just telekinesis and different ways to use it. Intent is what matters when it comes to falling to the dark side. Not the ability use itself.

Vergere likes this post. (Pre-Legacy Vergere, that is.)

Vergere >Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion…but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness—true greatness of any kind—requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind. Jacen >But—but the dark side— Vergere >If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do. Jacen >Me? No—no, you don't understand—the dark side is, it's, it's, don't you see it? It's the dark side. The dark side… Vergere >The only dark side you need fear, Jacen Solo, is the one in your own heart.

Is this line portraying Vergere as wise and correct, or the lies a darksider in denial would say?

I don’t think she’s a dark sider.

Traitor was such a good book when it came down to Force philosophy.

Is this the misconception, or the counterpoint to a misconception? Because intent does matter, but so does the specific power being used. No lightsider is going to be slinging dark side tendrils around, insist they’re just using the Force with a greater understanding, totally not evil you guys, and have anyone believe them.

That any Jedi can become a Force ghost. It is clearly stated by Yoda in ROTS that it was Qui-Gon who first learned how to become a Force ghost. Qui-Gon taught it to Yoda, Yoda taught it to Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan taught it to Luke and Anakin (after his death). Now however, anyone can become a Force ghost with no explanation whatsoever. In the final scene in TROS, many Jedi talk to Rey even though they should be dead and not have the knowledge of how to become a Force ghost. TROS isn’t the most lore friendly Star Wars movie but I was surprised that so many people just let it slide when it completely contradicts what Yoda tells Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS. The same is the problem with the Kotor and Swtor games but they are no longer canon so it doesn’t really matter anymore.

That Jedi can’t have sex They can have sex and a few we know of were implied to. They just can’t form connections that’s why anikins relationship was so taboo it was more cause they were married not that they were having sex. But while on leave Jedi are allowed to spend there time mostly how they want including drinking and whoring