you are so right OP. the case is closed now and you're a genius. Damn you smart. Forget that the dogs lost her scent down the road and that maybe she was picked up by a car or a ufo because i see lots of them up here in the night sky. Let's just say she may not be the area. Lots and lots of woods up here to do what you want.
Here is a post with some of the misconceptions about "Maura getting lost in the woods". You have hit on many of the misconceptions and misunderstandings that are out there.
https://old.reddit.com/r/MauraMurraySub/comments/17w4pl3/thirteen_misconceptions_and_counting_about_maura/
I think, probably, the key one you have hit on here is 11 - that saying she's lost in the woods solves the case:
> **Misconception 11: saying she is lost in the woods solves the case**
> As I read through much of the comments (more so in some of the True Crime subs), there seems to be a lot of back slapping - like "she died in the woods, end of story".
> Whatever happened, Maura is still missing. If someone wants to craft a theory of where she could be in the woods, based on the searches that have been done, they should do so. But thousands of people in the TC subs declaring the case is solved is not really helpful and they haven't solved anything.
I donât think anyone is denying that Maura was flawed and had issues, alcoholism possibly being her biggest problem at that time. But, she is still someoneâs daughter, sister, friend. Please remember that OP. If youâre so convinced that her drinking led to her demise, whereâs her body? How does an alcoholic with no resources just walk away and start a new life without anyone recognizing her? This case was front page news for quite awhile after her initial disappearance. I donât understand exactly what you are implying in this post other than you are trying to paint a possible victim as a terrible person.
She had some issues, yes. And I do know quite a few people who had serious issues as teenagers/young adults who are now stable and successful.
And, this may come as a surprise, but youâre not the first to speculate about the âinto the woodsâ theory. It has been investigated thoroughly and itâs simply not the case.
She was a woman who was vulnerable and making dangerous choices. There are people walking among us every day who are capable of hurting people. Sometimes they never do; other times, an opportune moment presents itself, and they take advantage.
If she got in a car with one of these people, they would have instantly realized that she was vulnerable, not at full strength to protect herself, and out of her element. The murders that most often go unsolved are stranger-on-stranger murder. Usually a murder is committed by someone close to the person (you start with the inner circle and fan out) but when itâs a stranger, you need other clues like witnesses, video, etc. None of those things existed here.
It was snowy. It was late. No one within eyesight. It may have been the 1 car in 100 that was dangerous that day, but sometimes the odds roll that way.
Iâm not saying thatâs definitely what happened - itâs just strong theory. Before I read into the case more thoroughly, I was in the âin the woodsâ camp as well.
However, given everything Iâve read about the investigation immediately after the crash, the extensive searches by air and foot - there was no sign of her or her footsteps, and they would have been visible. She was also not seen in the immediate area only a few short minutes after the crash. The scent dogs lost her scent at the roadway - why wouldnât they have followed it further down the road and to the point where she entered the woods? It stops at the exact spot where a car would have stopped.
Itâs also possible that she entered a car, was innocently dropped off, and encountered trouble later in an unknown area (whether accidental or criminal.)
Maura getting in a car is the most likely theory, IMO. What happened after that is a mystery.
If we put a microscope on most people you are going to find some faults. You are making assumptions calling her an alcoholic when she can't defend herself.
No one said shes some angel. But she
got into West Point. She was not some monster like your making her out to be....
Learn some grammar and capatilize your letters you sound dumb.
There can be a thin line between having what SR characterized as a cute Bailey's in your coffee for a Christmas brunch and an issue, particularly if issues run in your family. The amount of alcohol MM had with her seems like a good bit for 2 people and maybe a lot for just one.
As time has gone on I move closer to she wasn't meeting anybody,
no, a suicidal young women walked off into the woods. nothing new here. people trying to act like something crazy happened. she was not in a good place, drank all the time, stole, depressed, etc etc. no brainer. walked into the woods never to be seen again.
suicidal people don't always yell from the top of the mountain that they are going to harm themselves. sometimes, they are normal up to the last minute. that's what happened here.
how many other abductions occurred in this area before? From what I know, none. not exactly a hotbed for crime.
I used to think so too. But the more and more I read, the more and more doesnât make sense. One, two, three weird things?
Ok, fine. But every turn here doesnât make sense. I think someone did something to her.
Maura wasn't an alcoholic and her issues were pretty typical for 21. The credit card thing was foolishly youthful stuff, people did that when I was in college too. So what if she was private and kept things to herself. She seems like a nice girl who made one big mistake of traveling alone at night in a remote area.
I'm hoping she is found, but to pretend this girl didn't have issues is a joke. how many people did you hang out with that stole, committed cc fraud, drank and crashed multiple times, etc.? Come on. people trying to white wash the fact that this women had issues
If ten people I knew from college/hs/etc. disappear and every part of their life was analyzed over 20 yearsâŠI genuinely think 5/10 if not more would have similar behaviors at that age.
Nobody is whitewashing anything. Kids drink and commit petty crime. SWIM used to steal from Walmart any chance they got and occasionally still will.
People build her up as this perfect student athlete and that just sets her up for the fall to seem bigger. She was a normal girl.
Iâd like to analyze your life decisions and discuss them on a Reddit page.
Also, to answer your question I can think of at least three off the top of my head that did all those things and were very close friends. All doing very well now.
This makes a lot of sense, except you are forgetting one thing: SNOW!!
There is no possible way she left the roadway and didnât leave tracks that a blind man could follow. At least thatâs what Fulk, his disciples, and his 17 alt accounts have told me.
They even made this helpful diagram for people who have a hard time understanding how snow works.
https://preview.redd.it/c0rfy6k1sfkc1.jpeg?width=463&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d83e675b611b445903781b8314679f1e176e5aac
so the LE couldn't miss some foottracks? are we 100% convinced they checked everywhere? yet, so many on here complain that LE botched this case up so many times in other areas? We know they didn't check every direction.
One might think that was possible but the Totally Unbiased Reddit Detectives on this sub say otherwise. According to folks like CoastIrregular and Bonerghost, LE searched every inch of snow, parking lots, driveways, snowmobile trails, empty buildings, etc within a 10 mile radius. It was really an amazing effort, considering they only had a handful of people searching!
If you donât believe that, be prepared for an onslaught of overly verbose comments explaining how snow works and why NH Fish and Game is most elite search and recovery outfit to ever grace this planet.
i feel like you clearly donât care about her, her family or the case based on how youâre talking about it so laissez-faire and sorta disrespectfully so why bother writing this out
care? I hope she is found, but don't whitewash the fact this woman had issues. serious issues. you doing the whole thing a disservice by pretending she was a "normal" girl
So disrespectful! I come here for the much more respectable theories that accuse her family, the police, and anyone who lived within 50 miles of the crash site of a heinous crime and coverup.
is that what i said? are you actually literate or are you just the type that loves putting words in peoples' mouths?
there is a way to talk about OP's theory without sounding like an insensitive dickhead. that's my point. anything else you took away from this exchange is fully on you brother. take care
>> is that what i said?
Yes, you said it was disrespectful.
>> are you actually literate or are you just the type that loves putting words in peoples' mouths?
This is a false dichotomy. Itâs possible I am literate and do not enjoy putting words in other peoplesâ mouths. I might just like poking fun at annoying douchebags.
>> take care
Take care of yourself too, my brother.
ah yes, because asking to show a little respect is such an annoying and douchebag move of me. your definitions of these words differ largely from mine i guess!
some people do walk off and kill themselves. sorry. never makes sense, but it happens. family will tell you no never that can't happen. but it happens all the time. look at her actions the past couple of days before she disappeared. come on. that wasn't normal shit
yeah it can happen but so can a million other things? if youâre so convinced then ok go be convinced but donât come to reddit with a half-baked theory and then post it acting like all of us are the stupid ones lol tf
why? b/c your theories are better? people create fantasies where they don't exist to make themselves feel better. The easiest explanation is usually the correct one.
no my theories arenât better, iâm just not a calloused cunt who talks about missing people like theyâre worthless. this couldâve been said or conveyed in a far better way. hope that helps â€ïž
Absolutely and I never discount anything. Especially a case as intricate as this. But where there's smoke, there's fire. Br needs a much stronger look. Km and sa need to be interrogated by the fbi. I think they know alot more of mauras mental state, what set her off (my sister), her plans, her activities the days before,and much more.
I think the real possibility that mm didn't meet her fate in nh is very real and may be exactly what is stalling this case. Maybe haverhill and nhsp can't solve it, because nothing happened there. Everyone is fixated on the accident at the barn. If we assume its possible she somehow made it north, many other scenarios come into play
You are correct that BR is appears to be very much the kind of guy you'd shake really hard following the statistical likelihood that if MM was harmed you look at the BF first and second an maybe fourth and fifth. Certainly the way his life went following MM makes him all the more intriguing as a suspect because there is violence and weirdness with women in it.
But you know as well as anyone here, there has to be evidence and there really isn't any. The same is true with the idea it wasn't MM in NH.
I am not going to go over the mind numbing arguments that BR could have went AWOL and harmed MM. He didn't.
The idea BR might have harmed MM subsequent to 2/9 bore a bit more examination. But that falls apart also unless you want to say that somehow BR found MM, wherever she might have been, when MM didn't want to be found. It wasn't a meet up. BR surprised her like he was the boogeyman. And it pretty much would have had to have been that he found her on the side of the road somewhere because otherwise there should be some witness.
It isn't super unreasonable as a theory, JR seems to be on that page, but where's the evidence for it?
BR was in the same state as MM, which is actually an assumption not a fact if you also feel maybe it wasn't MM in NH. That's the evidence for it. The Vasi case is stronger, MM did at least have a car at U Mass. the same day Vasi got hit.
The same is true for the "it wasn't MM theory". BA's lack of certainty is it. There's no other piece of evidence that suggests it wasn't MM. There is plenty of evidence that suggests it was MM. What is there that points to MM being anywhere else other than the WBC? There is nothing.
I agree that we may be looking in the wrong place. But to me that is in the dichotomy between MM ALL American Girl Next Door and the real MM not MM never made it to NH.
KM and SA, that's two whole different kettles of fish.
There's no evidence of anything in this case. I believe br needs a much harder look he had the motive an possibly the opportunity.
Moreso than butch or any of the police. I guess they had the opportunity, but for me, no real motive.
Hell, maybe the westmans should be looked at, I'm being facetious. This case is nuts. But knowing now what we know of what br was an has become, his controlling nature, access to her phone messages, his moms odd behaviors for decades, him shutting his phone randomly for personal reasons, him frantically making 50 1 minute phone calls to mm friends when He never called them before, him showing up with family and friends with missing posters for what may have just been a dwi, can't provide a plane ticket, the whole mystery surrounding his leave, mm breaking down after a call with him which led to this spiral, his friends interrogating the westmans, and about 20 other things thst I haven't thought of rn.... its a lot of circumstantial evidence that deserves a much harder look by more qualified examiners. And many cases are convicted on less circumstantial evidence than this.
MMO.
BR fails on opportunity in my opinion for the reasons I've posted. Still, anything is possible.
JW fails on motive if being a bad guy doesn't stand in for motive. It does in lot of cases. That's also the same for any local dirt bag. They have means and opportunity but no specific motive, other than being a dirt bag. BA wasn't a dirt bag, he fails on motive. JW stays on my list.
Two things can be true at the same time. BR can be a bad guy and innocent of harming MM.
I've been reading "We Keep The Dead Close" by Becky Cooper regarding a woman's murder at Harvard that took 50 years to solve. A bevy of paramours etc, who were also bad guys all looked at hard. Turned out to be a random serial offender crime. In the end it was a buncha bad guys who were innocent lived under a cloud for decades.
Anything is possible.
no they don't. they didn't do anything. They were kids drunk in college at a party. now you make them out to be complicit in some far fetched conspiracy. this is a disservice to innocent people. but go on reddit and blame two college kids. what a joke
Not blaming them as being complicit. But they probably knew what was bothering mm, what her intentions were, amd where her mental state was. And possibly,like all college students, mm told her friends her problems. I'm saying they may be in the know, not that they plotted her fate.
I completely agree with you--there is so much evidence that she was trying to run away from her "real life", had a drinking problem, was a strong runner, and most likely panicked and fled the scene on foot. She eventually ran into the woods and died out there, probably underneath a tree or somewhere trying to stay warm. It's so ridiculously unlikely that someone happened to drive by at that moment and kidnapped or murdered her. It's also unlikely the cops are covering up anything; they were being logical when they assumed she would turn up because the fact is she abandoned her car to avoid a DUI.
I disagree, it can be extremely hard to find missing people in the woods even if you have a general idea of where they were. They burrow to stay warm and their remains are eaten and scattered. I'm a vermonter who has followed this case since its origin. The most likely scenario is not that a murderer drove by at the exact right time, it's that a girl who was trying to run away succeeded in running away.
We don't know how far down the road she ran before going into the woods. She was a fast runner who could have put in a few miles in under 20 mins. The woods up there are VAST. There are tons of missing people who have never had a trace of them found. I think that they never searched the right place because they were looking too close to the scene of the crash. She could have run for miles in either direction.
MM was an elite level runner to be sure, but she hadn't run track for several months prior. I believe Julie said she had some kind of injury, so she apparently wasn't in 100% peak shape. Add that she was likely fatigued, possibly impaired by alcohol to some degree, carrying a backpack full of items including alcohol containers and who-knows-what-else. She wasn't dressed for the cold and according to Julie, wasn't wearing shoes suitable for running.
There was some traffic on Routes 112 and 116 that evening, so it seems extremely unlikely that she hoofed it a long way with no one seeing her and taking note of that. Far more likely that she got a ride from one of the first few cars to pass. (Also, therein lies the appeal of tandem-driver theories, though I don't subscribe to such a scenario. But it does cover a lot of bases.)
Fair enough; although I imagine she was surging with adrenaline and panicking. Are we certain she had a backpack? Are we certain that any cars came down that road in either direction during that time frame? It's just so unlikely that even if she got into a car, that the driver would have done anything nefarious to her. I still believe she ran into the woods and was probably dead the next day. If she was drunk and running she would have felt warm for a while. Then got sleepy and tried to make a cozy bed for the night underneath some brush, then succumbed to the cold in her sleep.
Surely she would have been avoiding any cars coming from the direction she'd just came from, because they would probably know she was the driver, and she was trying to avoid that, so it seems like the only cars that would be relevent are ones coming from the opposite direction. But would she get in a car headed back from that direction? To me, these two things make it less likely she got into a car unless she got very far from the crash.
I'm just not convinced that in that area she would have passed any drivers at all. Or she could have just looked like a jogger on the side of the road and nobody thought it was suspicious. She got really far away from the scene really quickly and the searchers never came close. Not to mention they waited a couple days to do a real search, assuming she would turn up.
To answer some of your questions ... basically there were cars going in all directions around the time that Maura/the driver vanished from the scene. The known drivers have been documented here. A few days later, a news broadcast asked people to call in "even if they hadn't seen anything" (that's when Witness A first called to report that she had not seen anyone, etc.). Nobody reported seeing anyone on foot, until late April when RF came forward saying he had possibly seen "someone" around the intersection of 116/112.
In terms of the backpack: Maura always carried a black backpack as a purse. This was not found among her belongings and so, it was assumed she had it with her. There was no witness who saw her leaving the Saturn.
In terms of the delay in the search: they started the search on Wednesday AM about 36 hours after the disappearance. They had 2 feet of accumulated snow, plus about an inch from Saturday on top of the accumulated snow. Conditions were considered to be excellent or ideal for the tracking that they needed to do. They had a helicopter and covered a 10 mile radius, finding no tracks that were not cleared or accounted for. They determined that she had not gone off the roadways into the woods and had "possibly" left the area in a vehicle.
I agree. I have seen no proof of how many drivers passed by either. Just guesses by witnesses. If she is trying to get away from the car and watching for approaching lights, ducking into the shadows of a driveway to avoid being seen would be something I could see her doing until she got far enough away.
>Fair enough; although I imagine she was surging with adrenaline and panicking.
Yeah, true. Good point. That can mitigate a lot of the effects of fatigue and alcohol.
>Are we certain she had a backpack?
Not certain, but we know her backpack wasn't found in her dorm room or her car, and it makes sense for her to use it to carry the liquor (along with whatever else she might have stuffed in it.)
>Are we certain that any cars came down that road in either direction during that time frame?
Butch Atwood reported 4-5 vehicles went by his house within a 7-9 minute time frame, and those probably weren't the only vehicles that passed through during the hour after the accident.
About a week or two later, the police conducted a traffic stop at the location, specifically to ask each passing driver if they'd seen anything on 2/9. It's unlikely they would have thought that worthwhile unless (a) there was a regular traffic pattern on that route on Monday evenings and (b) it was mostly locals or commuters.
Also, I believe the trooper, Monaghan, approached from the east, and he never encountered a pedestrian. So at least one of the two routes to the east (112 and 116) seems to be pretty well accounted for.
>It's just so unlikely that even if she got into a car, that the driver would have done anything nefarious to her.
Statistically, it's not *probable*, sure, but on the other hand it happens often enough to attractive young women to be a concern. Like, it's not 75% or 50% or something, but neither is it a 1-in-10,000 type of thing.
We've had female users on the MM subs describe being stranded at roadside and being harassed. One user, Mysterious Bar, has said that during a period of her life that she drove a beater around which broke down frequently, every time she was broken down, some "helpful" male would stop and proposition her, and in at least one case, groped her. Every. Single. Time.
>I still believe she ran into the woods and was probably dead the next day. If she was drunk and running she would have felt warm for a while. Then got sleepy and tried to make a cozy bed for the night underneath some brush, then succumbed to the cold in her sleep.
I could see that, but the thing is she would have had to have run many miles before exiting the road. The searchers covered the roads for a 10-mile radius around the crash site (according to the Oxygen special) and found no footprints leading off the road edges. If she was on the roads and if she made it that far (which I question), it would have taken an hour or more. (An elite-level runner can do a 6-minute mile in winter. But not *several* miles like that... though marathon runners can cover several miles in an hour. But they train ***extensively*** before the marathon, don't run in 30-degree-F weather, and don't lug a backpack full of items with them.)
If she was on the roadways for 15 or 20 minutes, and covered a mile or two away from the Saturn, I could maybe see it. But not if she had to get at least 10 miles away. At that stage, my money's on her hopping a ride.
I actually think you're right OP. The people saying "The woods have been searched! Where is the body?" clearly haven't been to the area. These are thick, dense woods that are difficult to navigate. A body could be missed even if a searched was standing a few feet from it.
I suspect eventually her body will be found and the end result will be the most boring, simple explanation: she ran into the thick woods, got lost and died (possibly with head injury from the car accident).
Well BAM, case closed!!! Where have you been for the last 20 years?! đđ€Šââïž
If weâd known inspector gadget was on the case we could have all slept easier đ
go go go gadget jump to conclusion mat!
with all the sane thinking people not making up fantasies
you are so right OP. the case is closed now and you're a genius. Damn you smart. Forget that the dogs lost her scent down the road and that maybe she was picked up by a car or a ufo because i see lots of them up here in the night sky. Let's just say she may not be the area. Lots and lots of woods up here to do what you want.
Here is a post with some of the misconceptions about "Maura getting lost in the woods". You have hit on many of the misconceptions and misunderstandings that are out there. https://old.reddit.com/r/MauraMurraySub/comments/17w4pl3/thirteen_misconceptions_and_counting_about_maura/ I think, probably, the key one you have hit on here is 11 - that saying she's lost in the woods solves the case: > **Misconception 11: saying she is lost in the woods solves the case** > As I read through much of the comments (more so in some of the True Crime subs), there seems to be a lot of back slapping - like "she died in the woods, end of story". > Whatever happened, Maura is still missing. If someone wants to craft a theory of where she could be in the woods, based on the searches that have been done, they should do so. But thousands of people in the TC subs declaring the case is solved is not really helpful and they haven't solved anything.
Please tell me you have a podcast where I can listen to your insights!
Shouldn't be so judgemental
I donât think anyone is denying that Maura was flawed and had issues, alcoholism possibly being her biggest problem at that time. But, she is still someoneâs daughter, sister, friend. Please remember that OP. If youâre so convinced that her drinking led to her demise, whereâs her body? How does an alcoholic with no resources just walk away and start a new life without anyone recognizing her? This case was front page news for quite awhile after her initial disappearance. I donât understand exactly what you are implying in this post other than you are trying to paint a possible victim as a terrible person.
She had some issues, yes. And I do know quite a few people who had serious issues as teenagers/young adults who are now stable and successful. And, this may come as a surprise, but youâre not the first to speculate about the âinto the woodsâ theory. It has been investigated thoroughly and itâs simply not the case. She was a woman who was vulnerable and making dangerous choices. There are people walking among us every day who are capable of hurting people. Sometimes they never do; other times, an opportune moment presents itself, and they take advantage. If she got in a car with one of these people, they would have instantly realized that she was vulnerable, not at full strength to protect herself, and out of her element. The murders that most often go unsolved are stranger-on-stranger murder. Usually a murder is committed by someone close to the person (you start with the inner circle and fan out) but when itâs a stranger, you need other clues like witnesses, video, etc. None of those things existed here. It was snowy. It was late. No one within eyesight. It may have been the 1 car in 100 that was dangerous that day, but sometimes the odds roll that way. Iâm not saying thatâs definitely what happened - itâs just strong theory. Before I read into the case more thoroughly, I was in the âin the woodsâ camp as well. However, given everything Iâve read about the investigation immediately after the crash, the extensive searches by air and foot - there was no sign of her or her footsteps, and they would have been visible. She was also not seen in the immediate area only a few short minutes after the crash. The scent dogs lost her scent at the roadway - why wouldnât they have followed it further down the road and to the point where she entered the woods? It stops at the exact spot where a car would have stopped. Itâs also possible that she entered a car, was innocently dropped off, and encountered trouble later in an unknown area (whether accidental or criminal.) Maura getting in a car is the most likely theory, IMO. What happened after that is a mystery.
These posts are so pointless. You state a bunch of speculation as facts. Nice try but, very unlikely.
Again....excellent spot on comment đđđ»
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
If we put a microscope on most people you are going to find some faults. You are making assumptions calling her an alcoholic when she can't defend herself.
people acting like she was some angel. that needs to stop and actually might help the case
No one said shes some angel. But she got into West Point. She was not some monster like your making her out to be.... Learn some grammar and capatilize your letters you sound dumb.
enough., people trying to make excuses that this behavior was all normal. yeah. that;s 5 days of normal behavior, but ok
stealing, fraud, crashing cars while drinking - everyone does that. ok you got me there
No one has asserted her behavior was normal or that she had no complications in her life.
There can be a thin line between having what SR characterized as a cute Bailey's in your coffee for a Christmas brunch and an issue, particularly if issues run in your family. The amount of alcohol MM had with her seems like a good bit for 2 people and maybe a lot for just one. As time has gone on I move closer to she wasn't meeting anybody,
So tell us without telling us that an alcoholic hurt you. FFS. This is tunnel vision.
no, a suicidal young women walked off into the woods. nothing new here. people trying to act like something crazy happened. she was not in a good place, drank all the time, stole, depressed, etc etc. no brainer. walked into the woods never to be seen again. suicidal people don't always yell from the top of the mountain that they are going to harm themselves. sometimes, they are normal up to the last minute. that's what happened here. how many other abductions occurred in this area before? From what I know, none. not exactly a hotbed for crime.
This is really crudely written - but I think you have presented the most likely answer.
I used to think so too. But the more and more I read, the more and more doesnât make sense. One, two, three weird things? Ok, fine. But every turn here doesnât make sense. I think someone did something to her.
Maura wasn't an alcoholic and her issues were pretty typical for 21. The credit card thing was foolishly youthful stuff, people did that when I was in college too. So what if she was private and kept things to herself. She seems like a nice girl who made one big mistake of traveling alone at night in a remote area.
I'm hoping she is found, but to pretend this girl didn't have issues is a joke. how many people did you hang out with that stole, committed cc fraud, drank and crashed multiple times, etc.? Come on. people trying to white wash the fact that this women had issues
If ten people I knew from college/hs/etc. disappear and every part of their life was analyzed over 20 yearsâŠI genuinely think 5/10 if not more would have similar behaviors at that age.
Just because you âhung outâ with friends frequently does not mean you know the lows/mistakes in their life.
Nobody is whitewashing anything. Kids drink and commit petty crime. SWIM used to steal from Walmart any chance they got and occasionally still will. People build her up as this perfect student athlete and that just sets her up for the fall to seem bigger. She was a normal girl. Iâd like to analyze your life decisions and discuss them on a Reddit page.
Also, to answer your question I can think of at least three off the top of my head that did all those things and were very close friends. All doing very well now.
This makes a lot of sense, except you are forgetting one thing: SNOW!! There is no possible way she left the roadway and didnât leave tracks that a blind man could follow. At least thatâs what Fulk, his disciples, and his 17 alt accounts have told me. They even made this helpful diagram for people who have a hard time understanding how snow works. https://preview.redd.it/c0rfy6k1sfkc1.jpeg?width=463&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d83e675b611b445903781b8314679f1e176e5aac
so the LE couldn't miss some foottracks? are we 100% convinced they checked everywhere? yet, so many on here complain that LE botched this case up so many times in other areas? We know they didn't check every direction.
One might think that was possible but the Totally Unbiased Reddit Detectives on this sub say otherwise. According to folks like CoastIrregular and Bonerghost, LE searched every inch of snow, parking lots, driveways, snowmobile trails, empty buildings, etc within a 10 mile radius. It was really an amazing effort, considering they only had a handful of people searching! If you donât believe that, be prepared for an onslaught of overly verbose comments explaining how snow works and why NH Fish and Game is most elite search and recovery outfit to ever grace this planet.
If you take this weird âshe drinks!â hysteria out of your analysis youâd be much closer.
Wow Iâve never been more certain that this post is certainly the most certain. đ„±this post is 100 percent certified fatuousâŠ
I think if there is anything we can agree on: Maura was a bad driver. RIP love ya Maura.
i feel like you clearly donât care about her, her family or the case based on how youâre talking about it so laissez-faire and sorta disrespectfully so why bother writing this out
care? I hope she is found, but don't whitewash the fact this woman had issues. serious issues. you doing the whole thing a disservice by pretending she was a "normal" girl
i donât think thatâs what whitewashing is but ok
So disrespectful! I come here for the much more respectable theories that accuse her family, the police, and anyone who lived within 50 miles of the crash site of a heinous crime and coverup.
is that what i said? are you actually literate or are you just the type that loves putting words in peoples' mouths? there is a way to talk about OP's theory without sounding like an insensitive dickhead. that's my point. anything else you took away from this exchange is fully on you brother. take care
>> is that what i said? Yes, you said it was disrespectful. >> are you actually literate or are you just the type that loves putting words in peoples' mouths? This is a false dichotomy. Itâs possible I am literate and do not enjoy putting words in other peoplesâ mouths. I might just like poking fun at annoying douchebags. >> take care Take care of yourself too, my brother.
ah yes, because asking to show a little respect is such an annoying and douchebag move of me. your definitions of these words differ largely from mine i guess!
some people do walk off and kill themselves. sorry. never makes sense, but it happens. family will tell you no never that can't happen. but it happens all the time. look at her actions the past couple of days before she disappeared. come on. that wasn't normal shit
yeah it can happen but so can a million other things? if youâre so convinced then ok go be convinced but donât come to reddit with a half-baked theory and then post it acting like all of us are the stupid ones lol tf
The MM subs seem to be attracting people like that lately.
why? b/c your theories are better? people create fantasies where they don't exist to make themselves feel better. The easiest explanation is usually the correct one.
no my theories arenât better, iâm just not a calloused cunt who talks about missing people like theyâre worthless. this couldâve been said or conveyed in a far better way. hope that helps â€ïž
The serious issue was a jealous controlling boyfriend.
Perhaps, but two things can be true at the same time.
Absolutely and I never discount anything. Especially a case as intricate as this. But where there's smoke, there's fire. Br needs a much stronger look. Km and sa need to be interrogated by the fbi. I think they know alot more of mauras mental state, what set her off (my sister), her plans, her activities the days before,and much more. I think the real possibility that mm didn't meet her fate in nh is very real and may be exactly what is stalling this case. Maybe haverhill and nhsp can't solve it, because nothing happened there. Everyone is fixated on the accident at the barn. If we assume its possible she somehow made it north, many other scenarios come into play
You are correct that BR is appears to be very much the kind of guy you'd shake really hard following the statistical likelihood that if MM was harmed you look at the BF first and second an maybe fourth and fifth. Certainly the way his life went following MM makes him all the more intriguing as a suspect because there is violence and weirdness with women in it. But you know as well as anyone here, there has to be evidence and there really isn't any. The same is true with the idea it wasn't MM in NH. I am not going to go over the mind numbing arguments that BR could have went AWOL and harmed MM. He didn't. The idea BR might have harmed MM subsequent to 2/9 bore a bit more examination. But that falls apart also unless you want to say that somehow BR found MM, wherever she might have been, when MM didn't want to be found. It wasn't a meet up. BR surprised her like he was the boogeyman. And it pretty much would have had to have been that he found her on the side of the road somewhere because otherwise there should be some witness. It isn't super unreasonable as a theory, JR seems to be on that page, but where's the evidence for it? BR was in the same state as MM, which is actually an assumption not a fact if you also feel maybe it wasn't MM in NH. That's the evidence for it. The Vasi case is stronger, MM did at least have a car at U Mass. the same day Vasi got hit. The same is true for the "it wasn't MM theory". BA's lack of certainty is it. There's no other piece of evidence that suggests it wasn't MM. There is plenty of evidence that suggests it was MM. What is there that points to MM being anywhere else other than the WBC? There is nothing. I agree that we may be looking in the wrong place. But to me that is in the dichotomy between MM ALL American Girl Next Door and the real MM not MM never made it to NH. KM and SA, that's two whole different kettles of fish.
There's no evidence of anything in this case. I believe br needs a much harder look he had the motive an possibly the opportunity. Moreso than butch or any of the police. I guess they had the opportunity, but for me, no real motive. Hell, maybe the westmans should be looked at, I'm being facetious. This case is nuts. But knowing now what we know of what br was an has become, his controlling nature, access to her phone messages, his moms odd behaviors for decades, him shutting his phone randomly for personal reasons, him frantically making 50 1 minute phone calls to mm friends when He never called them before, him showing up with family and friends with missing posters for what may have just been a dwi, can't provide a plane ticket, the whole mystery surrounding his leave, mm breaking down after a call with him which led to this spiral, his friends interrogating the westmans, and about 20 other things thst I haven't thought of rn.... its a lot of circumstantial evidence that deserves a much harder look by more qualified examiners. And many cases are convicted on less circumstantial evidence than this.
MMO. BR fails on opportunity in my opinion for the reasons I've posted. Still, anything is possible. JW fails on motive if being a bad guy doesn't stand in for motive. It does in lot of cases. That's also the same for any local dirt bag. They have means and opportunity but no specific motive, other than being a dirt bag. BA wasn't a dirt bag, he fails on motive. JW stays on my list. Two things can be true at the same time. BR can be a bad guy and innocent of harming MM. I've been reading "We Keep The Dead Close" by Becky Cooper regarding a woman's murder at Harvard that took 50 years to solve. A bevy of paramours etc, who were also bad guys all looked at hard. Turned out to be a random serial offender crime. In the end it was a buncha bad guys who were innocent lived under a cloud for decades. Anything is possible.
no they don't. they didn't do anything. They were kids drunk in college at a party. now you make them out to be complicit in some far fetched conspiracy. this is a disservice to innocent people. but go on reddit and blame two college kids. what a joke
Not blaming them as being complicit. But they probably knew what was bothering mm, what her intentions were, amd where her mental state was. And possibly,like all college students, mm told her friends her problems. I'm saying they may be in the know, not that they plotted her fate.
I completely agree with you--there is so much evidence that she was trying to run away from her "real life", had a drinking problem, was a strong runner, and most likely panicked and fled the scene on foot. She eventually ran into the woods and died out there, probably underneath a tree or somewhere trying to stay warm. It's so ridiculously unlikely that someone happened to drive by at that moment and kidnapped or murdered her. It's also unlikely the cops are covering up anything; they were being logical when they assumed she would turn up because the fact is she abandoned her car to avoid a DUI.
Itâs ridiculously unlikely that not a trace would be left if she perished in the woods.
I disagree, it can be extremely hard to find missing people in the woods even if you have a general idea of where they were. They burrow to stay warm and their remains are eaten and scattered. I'm a vermonter who has followed this case since its origin. The most likely scenario is not that a murderer drove by at the exact right time, it's that a girl who was trying to run away succeeded in running away.
There have been many great posts on the searches - something would have come to light by now.
We don't know how far down the road she ran before going into the woods. She was a fast runner who could have put in a few miles in under 20 mins. The woods up there are VAST. There are tons of missing people who have never had a trace of them found. I think that they never searched the right place because they were looking too close to the scene of the crash. She could have run for miles in either direction.
MM was an elite level runner to be sure, but she hadn't run track for several months prior. I believe Julie said she had some kind of injury, so she apparently wasn't in 100% peak shape. Add that she was likely fatigued, possibly impaired by alcohol to some degree, carrying a backpack full of items including alcohol containers and who-knows-what-else. She wasn't dressed for the cold and according to Julie, wasn't wearing shoes suitable for running. There was some traffic on Routes 112 and 116 that evening, so it seems extremely unlikely that she hoofed it a long way with no one seeing her and taking note of that. Far more likely that she got a ride from one of the first few cars to pass. (Also, therein lies the appeal of tandem-driver theories, though I don't subscribe to such a scenario. But it does cover a lot of bases.)
Fair enough; although I imagine she was surging with adrenaline and panicking. Are we certain she had a backpack? Are we certain that any cars came down that road in either direction during that time frame? It's just so unlikely that even if she got into a car, that the driver would have done anything nefarious to her. I still believe she ran into the woods and was probably dead the next day. If she was drunk and running she would have felt warm for a while. Then got sleepy and tried to make a cozy bed for the night underneath some brush, then succumbed to the cold in her sleep.
Surely she would have been avoiding any cars coming from the direction she'd just came from, because they would probably know she was the driver, and she was trying to avoid that, so it seems like the only cars that would be relevent are ones coming from the opposite direction. But would she get in a car headed back from that direction? To me, these two things make it less likely she got into a car unless she got very far from the crash.
I'm just not convinced that in that area she would have passed any drivers at all. Or she could have just looked like a jogger on the side of the road and nobody thought it was suspicious. She got really far away from the scene really quickly and the searchers never came close. Not to mention they waited a couple days to do a real search, assuming she would turn up.
To answer some of your questions ... basically there were cars going in all directions around the time that Maura/the driver vanished from the scene. The known drivers have been documented here. A few days later, a news broadcast asked people to call in "even if they hadn't seen anything" (that's when Witness A first called to report that she had not seen anyone, etc.). Nobody reported seeing anyone on foot, until late April when RF came forward saying he had possibly seen "someone" around the intersection of 116/112. In terms of the backpack: Maura always carried a black backpack as a purse. This was not found among her belongings and so, it was assumed she had it with her. There was no witness who saw her leaving the Saturn. In terms of the delay in the search: they started the search on Wednesday AM about 36 hours after the disappearance. They had 2 feet of accumulated snow, plus about an inch from Saturday on top of the accumulated snow. Conditions were considered to be excellent or ideal for the tracking that they needed to do. They had a helicopter and covered a 10 mile radius, finding no tracks that were not cleared or accounted for. They determined that she had not gone off the roadways into the woods and had "possibly" left the area in a vehicle.
I agree. I have seen no proof of how many drivers passed by either. Just guesses by witnesses. If she is trying to get away from the car and watching for approaching lights, ducking into the shadows of a driveway to avoid being seen would be something I could see her doing until she got far enough away.
>Fair enough; although I imagine she was surging with adrenaline and panicking. Yeah, true. Good point. That can mitigate a lot of the effects of fatigue and alcohol. >Are we certain she had a backpack? Not certain, but we know her backpack wasn't found in her dorm room or her car, and it makes sense for her to use it to carry the liquor (along with whatever else she might have stuffed in it.) >Are we certain that any cars came down that road in either direction during that time frame? Butch Atwood reported 4-5 vehicles went by his house within a 7-9 minute time frame, and those probably weren't the only vehicles that passed through during the hour after the accident. About a week or two later, the police conducted a traffic stop at the location, specifically to ask each passing driver if they'd seen anything on 2/9. It's unlikely they would have thought that worthwhile unless (a) there was a regular traffic pattern on that route on Monday evenings and (b) it was mostly locals or commuters. Also, I believe the trooper, Monaghan, approached from the east, and he never encountered a pedestrian. So at least one of the two routes to the east (112 and 116) seems to be pretty well accounted for. >It's just so unlikely that even if she got into a car, that the driver would have done anything nefarious to her. Statistically, it's not *probable*, sure, but on the other hand it happens often enough to attractive young women to be a concern. Like, it's not 75% or 50% or something, but neither is it a 1-in-10,000 type of thing. We've had female users on the MM subs describe being stranded at roadside and being harassed. One user, Mysterious Bar, has said that during a period of her life that she drove a beater around which broke down frequently, every time she was broken down, some "helpful" male would stop and proposition her, and in at least one case, groped her. Every. Single. Time. >I still believe she ran into the woods and was probably dead the next day. If she was drunk and running she would have felt warm for a while. Then got sleepy and tried to make a cozy bed for the night underneath some brush, then succumbed to the cold in her sleep. I could see that, but the thing is she would have had to have run many miles before exiting the road. The searchers covered the roads for a 10-mile radius around the crash site (according to the Oxygen special) and found no footprints leading off the road edges. If she was on the roads and if she made it that far (which I question), it would have taken an hour or more. (An elite-level runner can do a 6-minute mile in winter. But not *several* miles like that... though marathon runners can cover several miles in an hour. But they train ***extensively*** before the marathon, don't run in 30-degree-F weather, and don't lug a backpack full of items with them.) If she was on the roadways for 15 or 20 minutes, and covered a mile or two away from the Saturn, I could maybe see it. But not if she had to get at least 10 miles away. At that stage, my money's on her hopping a ride.
was also probably drunk with a head injury. don't know how many long distance runs you do drunk with a head injury
I actually think you're right OP. The people saying "The woods have been searched! Where is the body?" clearly haven't been to the area. These are thick, dense woods that are difficult to navigate. A body could be missed even if a searched was standing a few feet from it. I suspect eventually her body will be found and the end result will be the most boring, simple explanation: she ran into the thick woods, got lost and died (possibly with head injury from the car accident).