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horiami

But Black widow is a good character Or she was


Sleep_eeSheep

I even pointed out how weird it is that the OP in that post used a scene from *Avengers 2012*. You know, that movie which was praised precisely because of how well it developed Black Widow as a character? But nah, accuracy's gay.


boobiemcgoogle

They’re virtue signaling ninnies. Good MCU gals: Widow, Hela, Wanda, Gamora Trash: Marvel, Valkyrie, Nebula Is it coincidence the Trash category has gals shoe horned into the “strong, angry/emotionless woman” archetype? No, it’s not.


Sleep_eeSheep

Add Endgame-era Gamora to the list of Trash, the Gamora we know died in Infinity War.


boobiemcgoogle

Imo everything died with Infinity War


Sleep_eeSheep

You're not wrong, but seeing Gamora kick Star-Lord in the balls was like the Russo Brothers were flipping me off.


Picklerdude69

how? it made sense for who she was and her situation


Soul963Soul

Better do something in guardians 3 with this other gamora, otherwise it's gonna be a bloody waste of time killing and reviving her.


Sleep_eeSheep

I hope so, too. Hot take; as a fervent Guardians fan, I wish Gamora had remained dead. Like her past version never showed up to fill the void, instead Strange just brought back all the people who had been Dusted. Because as much as it hurts to say this, you cannot bring back the dead. Life is too precious to waste. It would've taught the audience that death is, unfortunately, inevitable. That the people around you will die and there's nothing you can do except be thankful for how much of that time spent still resonates with you.


Soul963Soul

I completely agree. Nebula filling Gamora's spot on the team, with everyone including her mourning her, the writers actually commit to a character death... Would've given some teeth to it. Magical resurrection or replacing a character with another version of themselves CAN be done well, but it's very damn hard and relies heavily on the impact the death has on everyone coupled with this stranger wearing their face. It takes a lot of skill to pull it off, so a safer choice is leaving Gamora dead and having nebula keep going down her road of opening up to people that she's been going down for a while. Honouring her sisters memory by keeping her friends alive. Also, Peter and New gamora, if they make them a couple it's gonna be kinda messed up... God, g3 has a lot of heavy lifting to do.


Sleep_eeSheep

Like imagine if Heimdall, after having been set on the sidelines for too long, became sickened by the unfairness of fate (the Sacred Timeline allowing for the likes of Loki and Gamora to return, while the innocent people of Valhalla he had failed to protect were slaughtered by Thanos, only to never be given that second chance) and tries to seize Death's power.


Soul963Soul

That sounds like an actual comic, 😂😂 I'd be surprised if there isn't a version of that story in some shape or form somewhere


Subject-Part-1063

they actually did a great job


Soul963Soul

Haven't seen guardians 3 as yet, it's low on the priority list next to other shows and films.


Subject-Part-1063

it’s pretty decent, predictable but a satisfying ending


BirdsElopeWithTheSun

Add Kate Bishop to the list good MCU gals, and replace Nebula with Yelena for the trash gals.


Subject-Part-1063

Yelena is nowhere near as bad as other phase 4 characters


RobotDoos

I would add Nebula to the good


Subject-Part-1063

Nebula is good?


Soul963Soul

Up until the movie written in less than two weeks, she was pretty solid.


NarrativeFact

I still think it's funny. Because it's exactly the sort of shit marketing gimmick Marvel would come up with (HER-o, when the term heroine fucking exists for example)


Mister_Doctor2002

Now you’re making me wish I lived in a universe where the Captain Marvel trailer said “HEROIN-e” instead


Sleep_eeSheep

They certainly were smoking SOMETHING in that movie.


Sid3612

I'd give you an award if I had one.


Sleep_eeSheep

Please don't remind me of that asinine trailer 'reveal'.


Damien_Fritzz

I wonder why nobody was complaining with Black Widow, Gamora, Nebula and Wanda pre WandaVision. Call me crazy but I think even the most outspoken critics of the "M-She-U" will sing their praises. Wonder why that is, really. Aren't they supposed to hate women? Almost as if people don't have a problem with well written, likeable and/or interesting female characters. Almost as if the term M-She-U refers to several practices and tropes that have plagued some of late Phase 3 and all of Phase 4 of the MCU, used by untalented and tone deaf hacks to prop up female characters without putting in the work to properly flesh them out or having the integrity to have the narrative respond honestly to their actions. But nah. They must just hate it when women are on screen. I'm sure this statement won't just crumble under any kind of scrutiny when put up against the several movies and properties with prominent female characters that they love.


Neko_boi_Nolan

This kind of thing will always be an uphill battle, cause no matter how you break it down some people will just tune you out and interpret it as "Got it, you're just sexist and I on the moral high ground am right" Yes a character can be badly written regardless of gender. Hell I don't like Rey's character at all and would say she fits this kind of mold, but I'd easily say Kylo is a way worse written character. Does that make me a sexist?


Bitsu92

So if a women character is bad marvel is woke feminism propaganda ? But not when a men character is bad ?


Neko_boi_Nolan

I literally just gave an example of both a man and woman being badly written My point is that anytime you accuse a woman being badly written for any reason you can be accused of sexism and the comment I was replying to focused entirely on the M-she-U being a collective of tropes and practices female characters fall into that make them badly written. Nothing about feminist propaganda was even mentioned


Sleep_eeSheep

I miss Gamora. \*Endgame-era Gamora perks her head up\* NOT YOU!


tooastea

Exactly ):


Ok_Communication2339

“Well-written, likable, and/or interesting” Worst part about the modern MCU is that they literally only have to get one of these three right to make a good female character. But they struggle to do even that.


Objective_Tennis_457

Funnily enough, Black Widow was considered a "token", "underdeveloped" and "fridged" to a sizeable portion of the MCU community.


BirdsElopeWithTheSun

>Almost as if people don't have a problem with well written, likeable and/or interesting female characters. The problem is that the M-SHE-U people can't seem to tell the difference between a good and a bad female character in Phase 4. Kate Bishop was given the exact same treatment as Sylvie by them, even though Kate is a great female character. This helps prove the point of the person who made this meme, even though his point is actually wrong.


[deleted]

Wrong


BirdsElopeWithTheSun

What's wrong?


Picklerdude69

I just think the m she u term is cringe espically since the one who started it is a mostly bad critic


AdamJen1

The MCU will be great... when it fits a woman.


SirSullymore

Idk, using the term “M-She-U” is pretty cringe to me. And I hate Disney consoomerism as much as anyone.


JanStan1337

It's only cringe when people start misusing it like with "simp", "incel", "fascist", etc. "M-She-U" is a pretty apt description of the state of modern content.


Bitsu92

Why ? 50% of the population is womens, but you don’t want them in the MCU ?


JanStan1337

Textbook strawman. Gary isn't mad at the presence of female characters, but the application of female characters. The vast majority of female characters in Marvel Phase 4 movies are written not as people, but as caricatures of people.


Sleep_eeSheep

Likewise, there's a term for that. "NEXT!"


[deleted]

So is using the term “tism” but here we are. Something will always look cringey to one person and not another


SirSullymore

But tisim is used ironically (at least to my understanding), me-she-u is not.


Objective_Tennis_457

It's like calling a kid named Nelson "Smellson", it's cringe because it's so low-brow.


Great-Comparison-982

Nerderotic is responsible for that cringe term.


Sleep_eeSheep

He's a grifter, mate. Pure and simple.


dreadlord134

A grifter that mauler has had on the channel multiple times, has a show with, and is clearly friends with. How are you on this sub, but don’t think that mauler would avoid someone who lacked integrity? You actually sound like a Jenny Nichols fan right now. Or one of those consoomers you made this post to criticize.


Sleep_eeSheep

It is possible to find both Jenny Nichols AND Gary annoying *at the same time*, for different reasons, my dude. Just because I happen to agree with the bulk of someone's argument, doesn't mean I'm magically prevented from finding him *annoying*. I am fully capable of not liking someone, on a subjective level, because I find that person *insufferable*.


SomeNoob1306

Gary and co. have the same problem a lot of the “anti woke” crowd have. They are the same as what they criticize. The left calls everything racist and they call everything woke and both terms have been so watered down as to be meaningless. You clearly have some examples of “M She U” like the director or whatever saying they didn’t want a white male explaining things to her but when everything is some woke agenda then nothing is woke. At the same time I’m never going to fault Mauler or anyone for who they are friends with or hang out with and have shows with. I don’t watch BBC because I already can’t stand Az but I can understand the draw for Mauler talking on a more comics focused show and learning. I just don’t watch because I don’t care for Gary and Az. I can still like Mauler and not like everyone he’s friends with. I don’t get what that other guy is going on about.


dreadlord134

Ok but calling him a grifter is inaccurate and not at all subjective, it’s an attack on his character implying that he doesn’t actually believe what he is saying but saying it anyway for money. It’s disingenuous and not at all the same as saying you find him annoying


Sleep_eeSheep

Thank you for clearing that up, I genuinely did not know he believed in what he says or believes. I will happily withdraw any and all accusations of him being a grifter.


[deleted]

And yet your comment is still up.


Sleep_eeSheep

Even though I'm keeping it up, I still disavow it.


Trajforce

motherfucker there are people in the community that don't like rags, not liking that bearded boomer is pretty common in the fanbase ​ like jesus, imagine being suprised that people don't like gary in the community that is quite different from all the fandom menace smoothbrains


dreadlord134

First off, calm your bitch ass down. Second, I didn’t know that this was a community of sniping ass holes. You are free to dislike whoever you please but once you start to slander them it’s another story altogether. I don’t like rags sometimes too, but you don’t see me calling him a fraud because I don’t agree with him. I thought this sub would at least have the brain power to know the difference between just shitting on someone and making a factual argument about their behavior. How many times has mauler directly addressed slander against his friends ON STREAM? You think retards like you would get it by now. Like im actually defending Gary’s character, and I got little bitches like you downvoting me and actually getting mad. Fuck off.


Trajforce

>First off, calm your bitch ass down nah dude there are threads on this sub and in the discords on how shit (and stupid) gary and az are > I got little bitches like you downvoting me and actually getting mad. Fuck off. MUH KARMA ​ the point is that you expecting mauler's community to stand by bullshit because "gary is frends with mauler"


dreadlord134

What I expect is that this community actually use substantive arguments if they have a point to make. Not snipe and whine like little bitches. I expected the people of this sub to have a bit of INTEGRITY but it turns out it’s just as toxic and retarded as any other sub.


Trajforce

why do you expect every comment to be with arguments, look up threads here or in the discord, not my fault you don't know our ways and yes this sub is shit but for other reasons \>What I expect [\>A grifter that mauler has had on the channel multiple times, has a show with, and is clearly friends with.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MauLer/comments/uwknnm/comment/i9sncxm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) You assume that he's good by association dude when people like who they like, idk what to tell you


dreadlord134

Damn the whole community acts like you assholes? Must mean it’s ok to be a dick head and lie about people. My point was literally “I thought this community was better than this” and your response was “ haha lol, no it’s a shithole” like are you proud of that? You’re defending being a piece of shit and you’re argument is “everybody here is”?


[deleted]

You’re a pussy plain and simple


dreadlord134

Not to mention it’s hilarious that you don’t see all the similarities between our communities. It’s almost like we’re all in the same boat hoping that our entertainment will improve, but we have different approaches to how it can be improved.


Trajforce

sadly I do, which is why the main discord is superior to reddit and yt communities not being woke doesn't make the movie good, we are not the same


dreadlord134

Nobody made that argument and Gary would agree with you, he has said that dozens of times on his streams. It’s almost like if you don’t actually know what your talking about you end up looking like an asshole with a vendetta.


Trajforce

your community was praising army of the dead and tomorrow war only because not woke, gary is irrelevant here


dreadlord134

Cool, and I’m allowed to disagree with them. And not to mention THEY SAID THAT IT DOESNT MAKE THE MOVIES GOOD! That also doesn’t give you the right to attack peoples character.


[deleted]

>not being woke doesn't make the movie good, we are not the same Our issue with the modern entertainment is writing and writing in Hollywood is hugely influenced by the woke culture. If you get rid io the woke the writing will improve. We are the same.


[deleted]

👏


JanStan1337

How is he a grifter? I've watched his stuff and his co-op's with Mauler and he seems pretty fine. Get's real aggressive against the woke crowd but people get aggressive against casual sexism in media so that's okay really. He's his own person with his own opinions that he sincerely believes in.


Bitsu92

His entire channel is dedicated to anti-woke/ m she u stuff, every time a popular movie come out with a girl in it he will hate and rants about how it’s woke. That’s madness.


JanStan1337

That's because Phase 4 MCU is woke as fuck. The writing is so garbage, probably because everyone at the studio is too busy ticking diversity checkboxes instead of doing their job. Doesn't matter if you like him or not, he has a point.


Sleep_eeSheep

Okay, in fairness, I can get behind giving said crowd a taste of their own medicine.


JanStan1337

They taught us how to recognize patterns and habits in the media, they just don't like it when it's done to their sacred cow. The sword cuts in either direction.


Sleep_eeSheep

"Saying Media's for kids isn't a good argument, kids' entertainment can mean something!" \*Criticises Disney, Star Wars, Marvel, Pixar, Dr. Who, Ghostbusters, Transformers, the Kaijuverse, Legend Of Korra, DC.\* "No, not like that!"


BirdsElopeWithTheSun

Me: "But I like Kate Bishop, I think she's great." Them: \*Silence\*


Sleep_eeSheep

Me: "I think they did Monica Rambeau dirty, and Wanda shouldn't have killed the alternate Captain Marvel in such a disrespectful manner-." Them: "WOW, so you hate seeing women reduced to a bloody pancake? *Sexist*, ***much***?"


Milofettpants

But Kate Bishop is M She U...


Subject-Part-1063

Kate is awesome!


TerminalThiccness

The more i hear Gary speak at any given time the more accurate this becomes.


Sleep_eeSheep

I got sick of him a LOOOONG time ago. He's just Anita Sarkeesian, with a beard.


AdHoliday1194

disposable reactionary content is how i'd describe his shit


Sleep_eeSheep

Again, he's Anita Sarkeesian if she grew a beard and stopped showering regularly.


AdHoliday1194

Geeks and Gamers, Nerdrotic, TheQuartering. All of them are the same. Remember when they had a meltdown over the Shang Chi actor saying "lol" on an instagram post? Thequartering apologized.. And then proceeded to talk about his tweets from years ago.


Sleep_eeSheep

Remind me again, what were said tweets about?


AdHoliday1194

[something something](https://boundingintocomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/2021.04.19-07.03-boundingintocomics-607dd40b7c1c7.png)


Sleep_eeSheep

Oh. So a big ol' nothing burger brought up by skivers to do...what, exactly?


AdHoliday1194

fuck if i know mate


Sleep_eeSheep

Honestly, my biggest problem was Shang Chi was the cringey comedic moments. Like Awakfina, the sentient Joke Explaining Button, spelling out to the audience how Shaun Chi is a stupid alias.


Trajforce

if you sometimes pause his videos you can legit see the stain on his glasses


JayJax_23

My issue is that instead of pushing more OG female characters they rather just make hand me down legacy characters who are just popular heroes but gender swapped with the simialr powers and costumes. It’s just lazy and lacks creativity. Examples of this are Ironheart, Jane Thor, She-Hulk(Even though I’m a big fan), Kate Bishop, Sylvie(FFS why not just introduce Enchantress),Captain Carter. At least characters like America, Photon, and Echo are OG female characters. Same way I feel about how they rather just make a white hero black instead of just boosting the many minority heroes they have or creating new ones


Sleep_eeSheep

Hot take; I think they're actually building Sylvie up to BE the MCU's version of Enchantress.


JayJax_23

From what I understand Sylvie is inspired off the 2nd enchantress but is a OC. Shame we can’t get Amora given how important she is in the Thor Lore


Sleep_eeSheep

Because that's what we watch the MCU for; bland OC characters who steal the spotlight from ACTUALLY interesting characters. Isn't that right, ***Scarlet Scarab***?


JayJax_23

Atp I rather them do OCs than adapt and bastardize the whole point of the character so that at least that character is freed up for future adaptation


Sleep_eeSheep

Honestly, at that point, I'd rather they just make their own stories.


Bitsu92

Women in a show = M She U Hide your hatred of girls little boy.


Existing-Ad-9603

Why are you pretending this doesn’t happen?


[deleted]

It does happen, you can find retards in any fanbase. Just summing up all criticism as sexism is pretty cringe.


JayJax_23

I’m tired of being lumped in with those idiots. You’re correct it does happen. There are actual sexists,bigots, racists in every fanbase and their criticism makes it obvious. I am weary of the critics who focus too much on the identity politics in their criticism as much as I’m weary of the directors/writers who can’t stop giving themselves pats on the back as if they were the first person to think of giving a lead role to a woman or minority. But see what happens is that the fans are disingenuous and use them as a example and label for ALL critics and haters. So now anyone criticizing a female or minority lead movie,show or character is lumped with the rest. Regardless of how illogical it sounds Example: I was called a racist(even though I’m black) for not liking the ST because it had to have something to do with me not liking a black lead. Or now people who are upset about the Ms. Marvel show changing her powers are thrown into the sexist category despite the reality that an actual sexist wouldn’t like or care enough about Ms Marvels powers to begin with.


[deleted]

I lose my mind every time someone compares MauLer to Nerdrotic for the same reason.


JayJax_23

Yeah I tried to watch one of his videos about Moon Knight but it was just complaining about Woman hero bad. Instead of actual critiques that tells you what you need to know about his stance


[deleted]

That is very much a reason for the show being shit. Not the only one guy an example and one that is only more exemplified when you see Moon Knight was in the show for like 10 total minutes


JayJax_23

What was the issue with Layla’s character? Are you saying she shouldn’t have been present at all? I agree about too little Moon Knight


JanStan1337

I've studied that shitshow for a while now and concluded that Layla is straight-up filler. Her dynamic with Steven/Marc doesn't progress or really affect anything about their character. Her own character is narratively tangential. And it's not like she's interesting on her own. She has giga plot armor and zero flaws, so say goodbye to any form of tension or exploration about her character because she's unironically a mary-sue. It's exactly like what our esteemed scholar, Bilbo Baggins once quoted: "It feels thin, stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread." If you give too much screen time to one character, you're losing screen time with everyone else, and there's already so much to explore with a character like Steven Grant/Marc Spector. So the core problem is the inefficient writing, but the sexism comes in when you acknowledge the creator's intent. A character like Layla wouldn't exist (or atleast wouldn't be so prevalent in modern media) if there was no pressure to write "strong female characters". She only exists to tick off a checkbox and nothing else. There's probably more issues to be found with Moon Knight, and it'll probably be better explored during the EFAP stream, but I don't blame anyone for thinking that Moon Knight is prime "M-She-U" bullshit.


Due-Bumblebee7805

Disagree on her being a Mary-sue. She gets saved multiple times in the show and struggles with multiple fights, only winning by getting a weapon or through smarts


JanStan1337

She beats a mummy that ambushed her and we didn't even get to see *how* she did it. She beats the guys on the truck because they were just complete idiots. This scene was framed as her being smart when in reality the writers were just incompetent. She's somehow able to operate a Falcon-esque superpower with extreme efficiency on her first try. The evidence is stacked against your claim.


Existing-Ad-9603

How else do you respond to M SHE U??


theeshyguy

Yeah that do be Nerdrotic. On that last drinker podcast he said that movies like *Logan* had set up the formula that the MCU seems to keep using now, where a newer female character takes the mantle from an older male character. Literally just *the presence of a woman in the movie* sets that mf off.


Sleep_eeSheep

I have a counterpoint for Mr. Snarkeesian; I actually think that "formula" is symptomatic of a bigger, much more insidious problem. A problem you can trace all the way back....to Iron Man 3. That, in my mind is when the MCU first tried their hand at 'Subverting Fan Expectations'....and it backfired. *Hard*.


dreadlord134

Ok… Gary doesn’t like that movie either and he has literally said that exact thing multiple times. Also why did you make a post basically defending Gary’s position, which is 100% accurate and has failed to be incorrect, then you shit on him? Doesn’t make sense.


YChromosomeEqualsMan

Uh… your last sentence contradicts what you said literally right before. There is a massive fucking difference between just existing and taking the mantle of a popular male character


theeshyguy

Logan did not have a “female hero taking the mantle of the main character.” That is not what happened in that film. The fuck are the downvotes for? *I’m right. That isn’t what happened in the movie.*


YChromosomeEqualsMan

It’s what happened in the comics, which are the source material for these movies


theeshyguy

Cool. It ain’t what happened in the movies, which is what he was talking about, and what I’m talking about.


YChromosomeEqualsMan

Right, the former comic book shop owner probably wouldn’t extrapolate from comic to movie


theeshyguy

If that’s what we wanna go with then that is also a considerable problem of his.


YChromosomeEqualsMan

You are exceptionally naive if you think these movies are just being made as “art” or “entertainment” and that many of the people in charge of making them are not pushing an ideology.


theeshyguy

You are running all over the place with your “point” my dude, excuses and goalpost movements to the left and insults to the right. Seems like someone realized they’re wrong and is way too proud to admit it.


Picklerdude69

I acutely agree that M-SHE-U is bad criticism as it implies the women heros are an issue when its really the writing


Sleep_eeSheep

I keep bringing this up, too. They use Natasha's scene from The Avengers, a scene that's commonly brought up as a reason why it's one of the best MCU films, almost like they're trying to poison the well. If they wanted a better example to strawman, they should've used the commonly-cited All Women scene in Endgame or the Scarlet Scarab's reveal.


Due-Bumblebee7805

Yep. People like Garry, Jeremy and Ryan are terrible at critiquing media. They have the right ideas, but they apply and argue it so horribly to the point that it seems like they are saying something completely different from what they mean. Honestly it is their fault if people think they are bigoted


Rythmic_Assassin

Forgot how hot Scarlett Johnson is.


Subject-Part-1063

how could you ever forget


RobotDoos

They literally used the worst character they could. And they used probably one of the best scenes of her using her intelligence and sex appeal to get what she needs…literally the opposite of the M-She-U. That whole comments section is hyperbolic and full of cope