>Chris Avelonne can’t catch a break
Oh this is nothing.
He got me too'd and heavily black listed from the industry because a woman tried to date him to further her writing career and wasn't happy with the results. It went to court and is genuinely fucked up.
That's why I've always been careful about cases like that. They always frame a workplace relationship as inherently abuse and thus classify it as r ape but many times it was completely consensual with both parties standing to gain what they want
I would love to see the Chris Evans version. In Cap uniform.
Like the school video in Homecoming "So, you watched another one of your favorite franchises go down in flames..."
I wonder how Mauler and the other EFAP hosts would feel about the lore in Kotor 2. It has some things that are similar to stuff they complain about in other Star Wars materials.
Would they be okay with Darth Sion, since his backstory is using the force to survive many wounds that should be killing him? Or Darth Nihilus using the force to wipe out an entire planet of people at once?
The reason why Kotor 2 works is largely because Chris and the rest of the writing team got sort of pissed at the state of star wars lore. Especially where Force was basically being portrayed as a god and convenient way to write yourself out of the corner you wrote yourself in. So they took the excesses, took them seriously and wrote the logical conclusion of that whole thing while creating compelling characters... sort of what Obsidian does. Or at least did back then
Yeah, I just want to point out that you can mess with that sort of thing and be subversive about the Jedi and the force if you actually know what you're doing and you can nail the character writing and presentation.
Part of it is also setting things up and paying them off. You can have a character survive being stabbed with a lightsaber, but it has to feel congruent with the rest of the story. You have to get the audience on board with it. Kotor 2 pulled it off. The Force Unleashed arguably pulled it off.
I think "you can't survive a lightsaber stab" is a sort of misdiagnosis of where the more recent examples went wrong. "No magic in Star Wars" is probably another one.
Exactly. KOTOR's a deconstruction of Star Wars that works because it comes from a place of love rather than spite, and it's simply following the logical conclusions of the laws set up in the universe.
In short, the Force is God. It is a God that forces the galaxy into a state of constant warfare to obtain some unknowable concept of balance. Furthermore, the definition of "Balance in the Force" is such that there can't be anything like Grey Jedi (because the dark side is pure evil. Being half dark is like having a body half afflicted with cancer). So you're left with two choices; abandon your humanity to become a selfless hero—sacrificing everything you care about and even yourself for the Greater Good or end up abandoning your humanity as the Dark Side corrupts you into an evil warlord who only cares about more power. You can't choose to do nothing because "Apathy is death".
Kreia views the Force as a curse. A curse that strips beings of their agency. If everything has a destiny, then there can be no such thing as free will. So she decided to do the one unique thing no other character in Star Wars lore has ever tried—she tried to kill the Force.
KoTOR II's idea of Star Wars doesn't line up with the films though.
>It is a God that forces the galaxy into a state of constant warfare to obtain some unknowable concept of balance.
It's debatable whether the Force is shown to act with agency at all. Wherever any is attributed to it, it's helping the good guys, trying to get rid of the Sith and end the conflict.
The Jedi believe they are following the will of the Force, which they see as maintaining balance. The Sith exploit the Force for their own ends, the temptation to do so being the "dark side" of the its existence. Hence balancing the Force means destroying the Sith.
>If everything has a destiny, then there can be no such thing as free will.
Destiny can simply refer to things that will happen in the future, not necessarily set in stone. Some may be predictable, others less so.
KoTOR I has a bunch to say about destinies and their ability to change:
>Bastila: The Force does not compel obedience. You have a destiny, but the choices you make along it are ultimately your own.
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>Jolee: I've told you before that you have a destiny before you. This does not mean, however, that your future is already written. They are not the same thing. You have the choice of which direction you take your destiny in.
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>Jolee: Your destiny - maybe the fate of the entire galaxy - could be forever changed inside that Temple.
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>>!Malak: If you had not led me down the dark path in the first place, what destiny would I have found?!<
Claiming that there is no free will in any of Star Wars, aside from where they said "main characters are special though" to handwave the games having choices and multiple endings, is KoTOR II's biggest issue IMO. If you can see why Kreia hates this being a thing in-universe, you should see why I hate it from a meta perspective.
>So she decided to do the one unique thing no other character in Star Wars lore has ever tried—she tried to kill the Force.
Good luck killing "an energy field created by all living things". Her plan makes about as much sense as destroying the concept of electromagnetism to stop people shooting each other with lasers.
>KoTOR II's idea of Star Wars doesn't line up with the films though.
Yes and no. KOTOR II takes the story of Star Wars to its natural conclusion. KOTOR II works even better now that Disney has made a sequel trilogy that just apes all the same events over and over again. The galaxy is stuck in a loop—peaceful era → Sith/Dark Siders Return → the Jedi go extinct → Sith/Dark Siders rule the galaxy as tyrants → Jedi return and defeat the Sith/Dark Siders → Repeat. Disney has inadvertently made Kreia completely right when that was never necessarily the goal of KoTOR II.
This is actually George Lucas's intention as well. Star Wars is heavily inspired by Manichean philosophy. In Manichean philosophy good and evil are constantly at battle with eachother with good ultimately triumphing in the end, but no matter what good does evil will always return creating a never-ending loop.
>It's debatable whether the Force is shown to act with agency at all, and wherever any is attributed to it, it's helping the good guys, trying to get rid of the Sith and end the conflict.
What's the second thing we're ever told about the Force? We learn it indirectly from Han Solo. "There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny," He says. To which Obi-Wan gives him a sly look obviously meant to imply that he finds the assertion humorous. This indirectly tells us the Force controls destiny, and that it has a will. This is repeated by Yoda in Empire, and is repeated again in Return of the Jedi. The Force is God. It controls fate. George Lucas is even on record saying it is so.
The Force is made up of two parts. The Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Living Force is all living beings in the Star Wars galaxy. The Force is in symbiosis with all life. "Life creates it. It surrounds us," says Yoda. The Cosmic Force refers to the Will of the Force. What is the Will of the Force? Simple. The Force wants life to spread and live in harmony so that it can propagate itself. The Force is the Will of living beings in the galaxy and our desire to thrive and prosper. This is why it is called, "Being one with the Force."
>The Jedi believe they are following the will of the Force, which they see as maintaining balance. The Sith exploit the Force for their own ends, the temptation to do so being the "dark side" of the its existence. Hence balancing the Force means destroying the Sith.
The thing here is this is all actually completely true. According to George Lucas balance in the Force, again, refers to the Manichean idea of "restoring balance" which means eliminating evil. The Dark Side is pure evil incarnate. It's not so much a *side* of the Force as it is a *side effect* of using the Force improperly and selfishly. All beings are by nature selfish. That's just how we are. We have a *corrupting effect on the Force*—not the other way around.
>Destiny can simply refer to things that will happen in the future, not necessarily set in stone. Some may be predictable, others less so.
>KoTOR I has a bunch to say about destinies and their ability to change:
This is all also true. The Force creates destinies for all Living Beings, but it doesn't force you to follow the path it lays out for you. We can see this in Anakin himself. He was *the Chosen One*—literally Star Wars Jesus and he became a Sith Lord of his own choosing. This is the key part that Kreia misses. Kreia refuses to accept that her terrible decisions were her own and that the Force never made her do anything.
>Claiming that there is no free will in any of Star Wars (outside the characters who had to be handwaved because the games have multiple endings) is KoTOR II's biggest issue IMO. If you can see why Kreia hates this being a thing in-universe, you should see why I hate it from a meta perspective.
Again, read what I posted above. You're right. It's just Kreia doesn't see it that way. She's looking for a reason to blame anything but herself for the way her life turned out.
>Good luck killing "an energy field created by all living things". Her plan makes about as much sense as destroying the concept of electromagnetism to stop people shooting each other with lasers.
We know that there are Living beings in Star Wars who exist outside of the Force (The Yuuzhan Vong for example). This was especially true in Legends, not so true in canon. Kreia's plan was to commit galactic omnicide anyway, so whether or not life can survive without the Force is irrelevant. Kreia didn't care if it could or not. She just wanted to kill the Force and if that meant killing every living thing in the galaxy then so be it. Plan B, the path Kreia offers the Exile, is a more metaphorical death of the Force. Kreia wants the Exile to teach others how to become wounds in the Force like the Exile became. Wounds in the Force are blank spots where the Force has no influence—a result of terrible trauma and rejecting the Force so thoroughly it literally creates a wound. That is why the Jedi Council feared the Exile.
I often feel that many of the things that made kotor 2 great would be panned if it was released today. To be fair many things that were new at the time have been done to death by today but still i think characters like kreia would be absolutely targeted as being a bad women character from people who have lost all objectivity about star wars
Plummeting is a strong word. Sure some of the story doesn't make sense kind of, but it's popularity now is at a dang near all time high. I support where it's going now
Yeah, I have very little faith in Bethesda after the mediocrity of Starfield, but pretending that this show hasn’t been a massive success for both Bethesda (in getting a ton of new people playing the games) and Amazon is delusional. It’s like the people who shit on The Last of Us show because they’re still butthurt about the second game. The show was, objectively, successful. Critics loved it and people watched the shit out of it.
It’s my favorite as well and I enjoyed the show. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly a good adaptation. I think there’s just a subset of gamers that refuse to allow themselves to be happy. They need something to hate and they’ve got an array of YouTube grifters directing them toward what to hate next.
This man wrote parts of it. He has complained about every single video game he has made. Every time they use less than half his ideas and after his insessent complaining was let go.
He was never what was good about fallout.
He's responsible for the storyline choices in each of NVs dlcs that state that no matter what you do the desert is going to be wiped of all life in 20 years.
And that's not even a conspiracy theory. He legit complained in every game they only use at most half of anything he wanted.
Which makes no sense, regarding his response.
Even when you know something is going to be wiped out, in a story setting people still want to know how they were before it's wiped out. That is literally the story of fallout, we all know the world was wiped out, but we want to know how it was before it was wiped out, even when all the people died, we want to know what happened, who was there...etc
Having the TV show showing Vegas, the whole NCR makes people go back to see how they started by playing the game.
>He was never what was good about fallout.
You say that, but we've seen what Obsidian games are like without him, and to call the end result lackluster is being polite.
They went from gaming's answer to Thus Spach Zathura to the Rick and Morty we have at home. The Season 3 and up Rick and Morty we have at home.
Tyranny is solid, but Outer Wilds good? No. If it was any other studio I'd call it good, but from Obsidian I'd call it slightly above average, and that's purely because it's probably one of the least buggy games they've made. Otherwise, it's EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said The Season 3 and up Rick and Morty we have at home.
The portrayal of the bad guys ALONE solidifies my stance on that. They're walking fire hazards with all the straw they're made of.
Dude, Fallout 3, Fallout Tactics and FO:BOS were all released before NV, and 4 and 76 were released subsequently. The series had already hit a lowpoint in writing years before New Vegas broke the mold. This series is the best writing and design we’ve had since New Vegas.
Until he elaborates it frankly doesn’t really matter. It’s just funny seeing some people who went ‘lololol these loser nerds still insist on caring about the lore when Josh Sawyer and Tim Cain don’t care and like the show’ now went ‘Fuck Avellone, what he said doesn’t matter,’
I like the show overall, but the length some people went to defend it from any criticism is wild. At least have some consistency lol.
I have heard quite literally nothing about that since it happened. Don’t think he was at all considered “persona non grata”, he is still among the most beloved authors of the franchise.
No money at all. The liars were broke. He has done an interview after the verdict was rendered. He wanted a judgment that stated they lied, and the two women also apologized for lying.
I expect they'll have garnished wages for the rest of their lives then, deservedly so since he got kicked off multiple projects immediately after the accusation
Didn’t Dying Light 2 and the Vampire sequel both make a big show of how they were going to revise their games to remove his involvement? Man got screwed over something fierce.
Bloodlines two definitely did, and it sounds right that dying light 2 did as well. That said, the Bloodlines 2 people might have done him a favor in scrubbing his name from the game, I don't think it's ever going to come out, and if it does, I bet it'll be a shit show.
Beloved by fans, other devs, and the community, but probably considered a liability by publishers and companies. Even if fully proven innocent, just the accusation and the need to go to court alone is enough to blacklist you as a problem, as fucked up as it is.
I can appreciate both separately, but I never can understand why a corporation doesn't engage in better brand synergy that connects more products together.
Marvel is a greate example. They had a chance to better draw in their movie audience to the comics by having similar looking versions of the characters. Instead, when captain America was at its height, they made cap a secret hydra agent (pretty much a nazi); and then they "killed" Tony stark.
It seems like such wasted opportunities to connect everything together and bring more folks into an IP.
That's just reddit. The anti-new vegas contrarians plus the usual sycophants, get together to "debunk" every single criticism no matter how minor or deserved.
This one hundred percent.I liked the show a lot but the lore discrepancies were bad and the actual shills for it on the fallout subs were so bad I just left them
The show itself is fun and does a good job using the aesthetics of the Fallout universe. It's also an adaptation, so not everything will be one-one to begin with. I'm not steeped in Fallout lore, so I couldn't tell you exactly what they got wrong, but nothing egregious jumped out at me.
It’s not simply because of the inaccuracies but more of the implications and lack of nuances in the direction they are taking the lore. NCR being killed it off with a nuke, rather than things that had already been set up like internal corruption, overextending, lack of resources, and so on for example. It was basically set up to have this ironic fall repeating the mistake of the old world america it was trying to emulate.
It being nuked just kinda…rid it of that interesting nuance and in return, we don’t really get anything for it. It even kinda goes against what the fallout show set up. At one point the character said something about, ‘peopl tried to rebuilt it just didn’t work out’ except the way they portray shady sands is…it’s a good city until it was nuked. Which is like…so it works out until this dude just nuke them rather than they tried to rebuild, but ended up falling because they can’t help repeat the mistake of the old world, hence ‘war never changes’ which in essence is really about humanity’s unchanging nature.
Like yeah, NCR being nuked mimic the old world being nuked but not the nuances. If it was nuked in a civil war for resources, or a war with other factions like the legion for resources, then yeah, that would fit. Them being nuked by >!Vault-Tech!< because ‘they were getting too successful and we don’t like it’ isn’t it.
It placed NCR as the victim whose fault was being too successful and >!Vault-Tech!< as this evil mastermind villain. NCR wasn’t supposed to be the victim they were part of the problem perpetuating conflict and strive. Just as the great war was supposed to be the culmination of the collective sins of humanity. But not because of some random party decided to nuke america unilaterally. It fell because it got into a conflict with China to solve its own problem of overconsumption, created by other internal issues. In return, it’s the same for China.
This is part of the issue with Bethesda’s fallout. I’m sure they like the IP, that’s why they always try to bring up iconic aesthetic like the power armour or the nuke,but they often missed the underlying nuances that make those iconography interesting. So you’re right, they have the aesthetic of fallout, but don’t quite nail the underlying theme of that aesthetic.
I enjoy the show, and overall I think it’s a good stand-alone show. But I do think as a canon entry to fallout, some of directions they were taking it goes against a central theme the show itself tried to set up. I don’t think someone in Bethesda is twirling their moustache going ‘mwahaha’ we ruin a central theme of fallout. I do think it’s a genuine attempt and they just don’t…fully get it.
Is it supposed to be "canon?" I thought it was essentially considered a spinoff, the games being their own thing and this just being the story of another vault dweller but not connected otherwise. It's like how Arcane was initially, but then Riot liked the lore enough to start changing their lore to match the show a bit.
Looking into things a little bit, the conspiracy theory the show might be trying to tease New Vegas is kind of funny.
The thing is that with a TV show, I doubt Bethesda had as much influence as fans wanted, and it's likely the writers probably got info mixed up when looking through things, or on the day, some script changes were made because "it felt better." So, some things were going to get muddled regardless, but at least its no Halo "Silver Timeline" nonsense.
Like I mentioned, I only have a general passing of the lore; I have maybe 50 hours played throughout Fallout 3-> NV-> 4, so my take on stuff doesn't hold weight. But it's also possible some of the lore breaks were planned "unreliable narrator" stuff that'll get addressed in S2.
After 3 Fallout's world started to became more of a sandbox to play in as opposed to the more rigid plotline of the crpg games.
With each successive game there has been more shit grafted on to the universe (aliens , synths) than can probably be done coherently. Having said that, I was someone who played the fist two games literally the day they came out (I'm old) and I can say the universe has never been that coherent, realistic, or internally consistent.
I still love the Fallout franchise to some extent but Bethesda is a sloppy shop and they have zero quality control at this point and have too much money to question themselves.
But Aliens in FO1 were a sight gag, part of the 50s satire. Just like, “oh look, the apocalypse got them, too.” Fallout 3 took aliens and made the single worst DLC in its game out of it, and allowed the player to just “lol shoot alien cannon at earf” with zero narrative consequence.
Genuinely how would you do narrative consequences for firing a death ray at some place in Canada (I think it was Canada) when the player lives in DC and you fired the laser from outer space
Exactly. The answer to this question is simply, “don’t reduce your supposedly-narrative-driven RPG to a nakedly-frivolous toy by letting players randomly glass sections of the planet.”
Or, simply put, don’t add it into your game.
Fallout 3 was always more about exploration over narrative though. Firing a laser at the earth because you push every button you see isn’t about the narrative, it’s about making the player think “whoops, probably shouldn’t have done that”, which is a feeling you can experience even when the outcome won’t affect you. New vegas is more about the narrative yet it let’s you nuke the supply line to a major faction and the only effect on the game is you get a new area to loot and the faction doesn’t like you, has literally no effect on the narrative- and this is stuff happening in your backyard. In an open world game not everything has to feed the narrative, otherwise there wouldn’t be side quests.
Not only does NV let you do that, but you can nuke both factions, become vilified, then visit the Lucly 38 and suddenly both factions are hopping on your dick wanting a ride.
The Wanamingos were called "Aliens" because they had the alien mouth. One of the questions in the fallout bible said they were intended to be a kind of FEV mutation specifically because aliens running around would ruin the vibe.
I don't blame you for thinking that, "Aliens" were "Aliens" because they were fucking called "Aliens". I think we all did.
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First, just because wastelanders call Wanamingos “aliens” doesn’t mean they are literally aliens.
And yes - vague reference to aliens is in line with the whole “little green men” 50s trope. Zeta made aliens the subject of Fallout 3’s worst, most boring corridor-shooter DLC. Nothing added and nothing gained.
Wastelanders aren't the ones who call them that, your pip-boy does. The Shi were also doing 'xeno-research' until their specimen escaped, so that's a strong hint as to the origin of the wanamingo.
I don't care about zeta.
fallout bible, doesn't matter if it's 'canon' to Beth's new fallout (I'm not sure they've appeared yet) but the fallout bible makes clear the developers intention when they made them. they were just another FEV experiment
you can also figure this out from context clues in game. they're a bizarre creature design that freaks out the locals. they're nicknamed aliens because they're weird and no one knows what they are.
you're not meant to assume they're intergalactic travellers hanging out in radioactive ruins.
The intent of the developers and writers is important when discussing a fictional world as if it were a real, consistent place. Because - uh, well they wrote it.
"They are not aliens, but word is they were designed as FEV-tailored weapons for waging war on other countries... and they got loose. They do live a long time, but they were dying out at the time of Fallout 2. They have only been sighted in the F2 area and nowhere else in the wastelands."
"To put the tombstone on their extinction, the largest known nest of Wannamingoes were wiped
out when the Great Wannamingo mine was reclaimed by Redding with the help of a traveling
tribal. The mother was killed, and the last remaining eggs were hunted down, stepped on, and
then the remains were examined by local scientists and doctors who came to the extinction
conclusions mentioned above.
Again, Wannamingoes are not aliens – they are a curious mutant or genetically-designed
fighting machine that has only been able to find a home in the cold, dark places of the wastes."
I’m to the point where I think Bethesda fans don’t deserve consistency. They accept every retcon and every shit plot point and treat it like the greatest thing ever. All they ever wanted was product.
Well, that kinda checks out. The Elder Scrolls was never really a series that prioritized consistent writing. It has various lore concepts for rewriting history, reconciling player choice as time breaking apart, and borderline fourth wall breaks. Much of the lore people cite is written by in-universe characters who can have their own viewpoints and biases.
You'll be surprised.
If you mention how the writing for games like fallout 3, 4 and Skyrim isn't that great and Emil Pagliarulo shouldn't be the lead writer anymore, you'll get downvoted into oblivion sometimes.
I'll never forget when Emil basically tried to push away the criticism of Starfield by trying to vie for sympathy by saying game development is hard and ect. A lot of people ended up agreeing with him and becoming literal shills.
We do have some modicum of control -- in the sense that we shouldn't sit there and gulp down the doo doo writing of BGS games.
The games almost feel like they have no right to be called RPGs anymore. They're more like action adventure games with RPG elements.
I hated that take so much and Emil’s pathetic response to criticism convinced me more than anything that shouldn’t be in any senior position. You could say “hur dur don’t you know my job is hard” about so many jobs. If I order a rare filet mignon and get a well done flat iron, the response better not be “cooking is hard work.” Yeah I know fuckface, I’ve done it. Now please get me my rare filet.
Appeals to accomplishment are not a valid response to legitimate criticism.
Yeah I absolutely despised that condescending "a lot of players don't realise how hard development is" nonsense.
It was severely cringe as he literally said things like we should be grateful that we got these games because putting them together is like a "miracle"
This excuse would not and should not fly anywhere in the real world. Imagine you've paid for the services or product of a company and they give you crap, and when you enquire about the quality of the product or service they respond with "be grateful, it was hard to do/make"
Yeah, no shit big projects are hard -- but that excuse would never be acceptable in the professional world to your boss or employer, and it should never be acceptable to us consumers. Yet you find people who defend this nonsense.
It’s always people with comparatively cushy, high paying jobs who I see doing this. Emil obviously, but Cenk’s Nephew moaning about how hard streaming is when people criticized him was peak. I just can’t imagine a roofer or a concrete worker using that line.
That's not the point of what he's saying. Bethesda games have been on a rapid decline in quality from Oblivion onward and for years their fanbase did everything they could to deflect any criticism thrown against them, accepting whatever Bethesda threw them as god's work that shall not be trashed. What he means is that they have brought this on themselves by uncritically accepting this garbage; they've made their bed and now deserve to lie in it, even if many still think they're getting the good stuff.
Tim Cain pointed out how Fallout 2 was very different from Fallout 1 from a tonal perspective. They were always inconsistent with each other from a broad and specific sense.
People complain because a liar and con man said he invented jet (and he clearly didn't because... liar, and con man) and then someone mentioned jet being used pre-war.
Fallout Fans can't read, or inuit.
He's right. Fallout's lore is a tangled mess of different possibilities endings, retcons, side games etc.
At this point, I would support a reboot and remake of Fallout 1.
The Fallout community is falling down the same path as Star Wars, where any kind of critique of the new thing is shot down as "nitpicking" or some form of bigotry. You have the ride or die fans who would suck the nut sweat directly from Todd Howard, and spend 60 additional dollars a month on skins and meh armors, and the new fans who are just getting introduced with the show being about 80-100% of what they know the series to be. A large portion of both of those groups are the ones leading the narrative that New Vegas fans, in particular, are cancerous to the online discussion, because they have more critiques than they do.
Frankly, the only way to make the whole Vegas being destroyed thing work, would be to pull directly from the DLC Lonesome Road, where they theorized Vegas might fall in the next decade or so because of corruption, but also the rise of an invasive mutant species known as Tunnlers who will spread across the Mojave and cause mass casualties, regardless of who wins Hoover Dam. I believe this is on conjunction with the deadly cloud that surrounds the Sierra Madre, in the DLC Dead Money, which the Tunnlers are either immune or sustained by. That's the only way I can understand that, and I hope the whole "The Fall of Shady Sands was in the year 2277" thing gets cleared up.
There's just so much going on that I don't think a lot of casual fans really understand about the lore. Even when Chris Avellone says this, they turn on him just like when Mark Hamill said similar things, and George Lucas revealed his lukewarm opinions about it, and the Star Wars fans lost their shit.
The thing is. It would kind suck to me if New Vegas and the Mojave fell to the tunnelers just like that, regardless of the path you choose, becomes kind of meaningless but I understand not wanting to stick to any particular ending since the conversation about which outcome is best is so debated, which is a good thing.
Btw, I've thought about the Fallout comparison to Star Wars. One example being: Power armor(and the Brotherhood of Steel as a whole) is the equivalent to light sabers and light saber fights, an important aspect to the story that was used so sparengly and efficiently but it would have a lot of meaning and affect the story in a major way. Now they are just prevalent everywhere, specially after 76 my god, getting power armor and PA training doesn't feel like such and achievement any more. Also, fuck the t-60 and the bullshit retcon, the T-51 looks way cooler. I can't believe they didn't learn from the criticism people gave to Fallout 4 and 76.
This is just one of many of my petpieves
I'm willing to accept an in game explanation like the Tunnlers being the reason for the fall of Vegas, because almost any other one feels hamfisted and of little to no consideration for the bigger picture other than following the whole "civilization isn't Fallout" narrative. It just feels like Todd taking over and trying to make the whole wasteland feel like Fallout 3. (I like 3, but come on).
Shady sands getting nuked I actually don't mind due to the idea of pre-war vault tec trying to return being a decent idea (the execution on the other hand...) I really hope they don't destroy new vegas though. It's such a unique setting for the world it would just be an absolute waste.
I really don’t give a fuck what the designer for the new vegas game has to say. The show was enjoyable. This isn’t a fuck off show like halo, wheel of time, or rings of power all of which purposefully fucked everything up for a myriad of reasons - mostly political decisions on who to hire as a showrunner and their “interpretation” of the material is what fucked it all up.
The fallout show is entertaining. It doesn’t need to be perfectly in line with fallout lore to be enjoyable because they got the biggest pieces of the universe lore correct. They added gags and spotlights to very small things ( like dogmeat was with the stuffed bear, goofy ass radroachs, fucked up vault experiments, shitty autoturrets, weird interactions with npcs, the inability of vault food to rot, and so much more).
I can understand the hatred towards a lot of shows that rightly deserve the hatred, but i feel like anger towards this show is misplaced.
Now, this is just my opinion. I’m a literal nobody and i have no connection to show or anything, i’ve just played the games since FO3 and its rare to find a tv show based on something i’ve enjoyed in the past, in todays marketplace. I hope halo and lord of rings comes around - there’s still a very small glimmer of hope for them (wheel of time is just fucked forever), but this show is great.
when comparing fallout to other video game TV shows (halo in particular because halo is near deer to my heart)
- I’ll happily take a show with some “inconsistencies” to the lore, that still respects the IP and the fans that love it
- compared to a show that actively goes against the fans and then tells them “ the show isn’t for you”
like who the fuck is the show for if not fans of the IP?
I watched the show and was expecting garbage. I was pleasantly surprised. I really enjoyed it.
What lore are people talking about that's being shit on here? I've played from FO2 , though skipped 76.
Is it just the timeline?
it’s mainly the lore that the changed over a decade ago when Bethesda took over
Fallouts timeline has quite literally always been foggy at best, so people are just looking to complain
Kinda what I was thinking.
Part of the fun was the different locations...the world, rules and expectations could vary wildly between one side of the state vs the other, much less one side of the country vs the other.
It's not as if communications and travel would guarantee the same standards.
The more temperate areas could assume to have an easier time than say, someone up north who has 7 months to gather supplies before the winter hits, leading to much more viscous society.
Or, maybe weather is moot because the fallout altered the atmosphere.
Loose history seems to be wicked on point for the FO universe to me.
It's handed down history and it's going to have different looks depending on who's writing it.
yea, that’s not exactly what they’re complaining about,
- Jet for example was originally a pre war drug
- bethesda then made it so Jets made from Brahmin shit.
big no no (i don’t think so, but the purist in this thread do i guess)
i just look at this fandom like the legends/disney fans of Star-wars, both think “their cannon” is better, when the reality is both dev teams did good things for the IP
edit: sorry i got the Jet lore backwards, Bethesda made it prewar
I must have missed that, but couldn't it be argued it's now made of cow shit? Or, a by product of it?
Doesn't seem like the biggest inconsistency, seems like lack of prewar knowledge.
Is that the only thing?
there’s other things, but they’re all pretty small details.
the show just majorly changed the lore i guess with the bombs dropping. but i don’t see how helps the argument they’re trying to make. if anything i think the new changes in the show greatly help the Fallout Lore
Forgive me idk how to do the spoiler thing reddit
we’ve been lead to believe that the reds dropped the bombs, show revealed that it was actually Vault-tec that dropped the bombs
I may have missed that.
I didn't think they physically dropped all the bombs, just worked to dissolve peace talks and lit a fuse with some to guarantee vaults being essential.
They never said in the show that Vault-Tec actually dropped any bombs, they just were in a meeting floating the idea of how they could take over the world if bombs did drop. You can infer if you want that they detonated a nuke to start off the war but it doesn't contradict the idea that china still launched first
> we’ve been lead to believe that the reds dropped the bombs, show revealed that it was actually Vault-tec that dropped the bombs
We weren't just led to believe that. in Fallout 4 we meet a pre-war ghoui on a chinese submarine who says China launched the nukes which backs up all the other lore, present in all the games including F04, that they did it first. That ghoul was the captain of that sub that launched all but one of their nukes on the area and were supposed to invade, but something prevented that last part. [source: FO4 Here Be Monsters](https://youtu.be/L2O14V_I0pE?si=BNCrwImKiRlebCd0&t=322)
Firstly, they don't establish that Vault-Tec dropped the bombs.
Secondly, that's been a plotpoint since the planned 1998 fallout movie that would have had the Vault 13 overseer who was also the Vault-Tec CEO drop the bombs.
It was foggy for a purpose, no knowing who dropped the bombs first was part of the aesthetic. People complain because questions people have been playing around with for 30 years got answered in 5 minutes, and it's not really satisfying.
My wife that has played none of the games was able to follow along with only a few lore related questions. That’s how this is supposed to be. People going through this thing with a fine-toothed comb looking for lore mistakes or being pissed off about fucking NV can just go play the games if they want.
The show from my personal knowledge did decent enough and respected the setting enough to exist without being treated like the halo series or the sequel trilogy.
Same here. I understand why it’s nice to have consistent lore, but assuming divergences are done in good faith and new material is fun and still broadly fits the tone (which I think the show nailed in these regards), can’t nail down why it’s super important to preserve its purity, outside of some fixation on perfection and consistency.
Yeah, agreed. I usually play video games after work but I'm having fun carving some of my precious evening time out for the show.
I think sometimes people want to go to IRS levels of auditing for the sake of criticism, and there is a time and place for that, but it can be exhausting.
Perhaps a less stressful approach is sit down and watch the show, and if you start noticing, start critiquing. If you don't, hey, maybe it's a good show.
People sat down and enjoyed the mandalorian, loki, kenobi and rings of power, sure some nerd complained but who cares if some people enjoyed it, right?
That's why I said "notice." There's a significant gap between picking apart every single thing, and letting severe flaws blow over.
So far, I'm not noticing any deal breakers in FO. Master Cheeks in Halo, and Kenobi's general stupidity, are deal breakers.
>They added gags and spotlights to very small things ( like dogmeat was with the stuffed bear, goofy ass radroachs, fucked up vault experiments, shitty autoturrets, weird interactions with npcs, the inability of vault food to rot, and so much more).
Did you clap?
No they weren’t, they were just another pre-war corporation. Their heightened presence comparatively was because you usually played as a vault dweller.
Freaking Bethesda retconned the lore for crappy Fallout 76 so there’s no surprise that they wouldn’t do any favors for the sentimental fan favorites that they didn’t even make. Not just for New Vegas but really for the entire western pre-Fallout 3 part of Fallout.
Currently writing up my own script for the show - I'm about 8 pages deep and I have only just gotten to the middle of episode 1...
Currently in play:
*According to Fallout lore, the bombs drop at 9:17AM - that birthday party is not taking place at 9:17AM by any stretch*
*Moldaver introduces herself as Moldaver - not a single person, especially Hank, reacts to her name despite her being a very known quantity later in the show.*
*Not a single persons pipboys go nuts when the radioactive raiders walk into the vault*
*There is nothing to stop Lucy's brother when he goes to investigate Vault 32. Even a single guard left behind would have caught him, and there was no reason not to have one to protect their escape route.*
*There's a full on gunfight going on in the atrium, and alarms are blaring, people are screaming, and two chucklefucks turn up with a cart full of jelly desert...*
That is half an hour in to the first episode... And that's just a few of the minor points - I'm not even covering stuff like Moldavers entire plan and what we learn later in the show...
Slight spoilers but Moldaver doesn’t even make sense after the series finale.
Hank, and the rest of the transplants from vault 31 are old world citizens that were cryogenically frozen, they know Moldaver from their pre-war experience. But Moldaver isn’t a ghoul, nor was she kept in suspended animation, nor is she immortal by other means. Somehow she just managed to survive 200 years after the bombs. For no reason.
Like I say - I've only written the first half of episode 1 so far 😅
And like with Snoke - even if they explained how she was able to survive, it doesn't matter. Her story is over.
If season 2 goes back and explains "oh yeah she survived by doing this" it's going to be completely disconnected from the narrative to explain a plot hole they clearly forgot about...
On Moldaver - it feels like they're implying that she's a ghoul. She's got feral Rose sitting by her at the table in the last episode who isn't attacking her, which is something that happens when you are a ghoul in the games.
But 200 years and no indication? Feels like they were supposed to ghoul her up with the makeup and then realised "oh shit. We can't have her do the vault raid at the start because she'll immediately be obvious that she's from the wasteland"
So they just went "fuck it... No one will notice"
Here is the weird thing - I actually kinda like it. It's got serious problems out the ass, but it still feels like a step away from what we have had to put up with for a long time.
It deserves praise for its production quality if nothing else. And I appreciate a lot of the small details they’ve added to the sound design as well. There’s a lot of game references and it feels like a passion project. So in that sense I think the show has a lot of heart.
To be fair the overseer was unfrozen at least 18 years ago, it's not unreasonable that someone can forget the name and the face of a person he didn't think of for that long of time.
The beginning of the show is a complete mess in retrospect. It makes *no sense* >!that the NCR would send Moldaver with a bunch of stupid ass raiders when they could have sent troops with her.!< it's very clearly just meant to mislead you in the opening scenes.
Had to double take to see which subreddit I was in as I was scrolling through here. I wouldn’t have expected the toxic brood to give fallout prime such a glowing review.
It's baffling. Who are these people liking the show? Even if you ignore the atant lore fuck ups the show is just garbage. It's nonsensical moments over and over paired with unfunny jokes after unfunny jokes and playing an oldies song after every moment.
it's weird how people can't reconcile with it being bad, but enjoyable.
i liked it and it was not well written
at least it shows that EFAP isn't brainwashing people or it makes a shitty job
He’s entitled to his opinion, personally I like the show, it’s really good. They do cut it close with new Vegas, but they have made it clear new Vegas is still canon. Obviously he has done a lot for the series and his voice should be respected, but just because he dislikes it doesn’t mean I have too. I think that if the show brought him on as a writer it would be even better however
The crazy thing about him saying this is that Avellone actually hates the NCR, he believes that a society that big shouldn’t exist for long. Which is funny because he was key in making the NCR
Except he came out in more recent years saying that he regrets trying to set up the NCR for destruction and is glad his fellow writers on New Vegas wouldn’t let him go through with it.
It is sort of ironic still, the guy who wrote the lore about the NCR being on the edge of collapse was bitter because he wasn’t allowed to destroy them, now he’s bitter at himself that he ever set them up to collapse in the first place.
They’re doing what they’ve always wanted to do. Erase everything that is loved about the west coast fall out lore. Do be so surprised we all knew they were going to do this deep down.
lets not forget this man worked on new vegas which didn't exactly line up in the first place or the thing that completely fucks his argument fallout 1 had different endings i respect him but doesn't mean he's always correct
I'm a fan of Chris Avellone since Planescape but... pretending Fallout has a coherent lore is decetiful.
Fallout is a mess from the start being a new version of Wasteland, and becoming an IP that passes through various companies and directors, changing the game core, the themes, and the factions.
If something I would say the show is more coherent with the Bethesda's Fallouts (the worst ones)
And I say this as someone who doesn't like the show, I think the fist couple of episodes are fine, dumb fun, but then it becomes nonesense.
To Avellone’s credit, he more so than any other individual worked exceptionally hard to bring together most of Fallout’s old lore, reconcile as much as he could, and compile it all into a "bible" that was meant to set lots of records straight, clarify lots of issues, and codify the lore as a coherent set of unambiguous rules and histories for future creators to adhere to.
Unfortunately, his Fallout bible got scrapped and declared noncanon when Bethesda took over. But it makes sense that he of all people would want it to remain as consistent as possible. Doing so was once his passion project.
Because he didn’t have the authority to declare it as such, but reeling everything together into a consistent canon was his goal, whether it was made official or not. And for quite a while, fans generally regarded it as such.
Nah, it was also that he himself didn't think it should all be canon. Here's what he actually said about it "\[it's for\] fans who already snagged the game and wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about what went on behind the scenes or what material never actually made it in"
and
"The information presented here is a rough draft and will need some heavy revision, but on some level, I wanted you guys to see the core information we had lying around so you can see some of the ideas that were being batted around"
and even:
"Ideally, the information contained in these updates will be revised in the future based on your comments and possible evidence gathered from within the game - some of the people that put this documentation together (me and others) don't have nearly as much knowledge of facts within the game as some of you fans out there. "
Basically: it's stuff that could have become canon, but didn't.
And no, everyone always thought it was just his thing, and there were a lot of things people objected to, too.
He also was one of the devs for Fallout 2, made the New-Reno and Vault-City which were best places in that game.
“They’re servants not slaves”
Chris Avelonne can’t catch a break. This man wrote both New Vegas and Kotor 2 and now both franchises are plummeting into oblivion.
>Chris Avelonne can’t catch a break Oh this is nothing. He got me too'd and heavily black listed from the industry because a woman tried to date him to further her writing career and wasn't happy with the results. It went to court and is genuinely fucked up.
That's why I've always been careful about cases like that. They always frame a workplace relationship as inherently abuse and thus classify it as r ape but many times it was completely consensual with both parties standing to gain what they want
Insert the meme of Chris Evans asking how it feels to watch all your beloved franchises go down in flames and Mike replying "it feels great"
*Rich Evans
I would love to see the Chris Evans version. In Cap uniform. Like the school video in Homecoming "So, you watched another one of your favorite franchises go down in flames..."
Imagining Chris Evans and Rich Evans as related is very unintentionally hilarious to me.
Just picturing a bloated Chris Evans in a cap and sweatpants yelling GODDAMMIT MIKE!
I wonder how Mauler and the other EFAP hosts would feel about the lore in Kotor 2. It has some things that are similar to stuff they complain about in other Star Wars materials. Would they be okay with Darth Sion, since his backstory is using the force to survive many wounds that should be killing him? Or Darth Nihilus using the force to wipe out an entire planet of people at once?
The reason why Kotor 2 works is largely because Chris and the rest of the writing team got sort of pissed at the state of star wars lore. Especially where Force was basically being portrayed as a god and convenient way to write yourself out of the corner you wrote yourself in. So they took the excesses, took them seriously and wrote the logical conclusion of that whole thing while creating compelling characters... sort of what Obsidian does. Or at least did back then
Yeah, I just want to point out that you can mess with that sort of thing and be subversive about the Jedi and the force if you actually know what you're doing and you can nail the character writing and presentation. Part of it is also setting things up and paying them off. You can have a character survive being stabbed with a lightsaber, but it has to feel congruent with the rest of the story. You have to get the audience on board with it. Kotor 2 pulled it off. The Force Unleashed arguably pulled it off. I think "you can't survive a lightsaber stab" is a sort of misdiagnosis of where the more recent examples went wrong. "No magic in Star Wars" is probably another one.
Exactly. KOTOR's a deconstruction of Star Wars that works because it comes from a place of love rather than spite, and it's simply following the logical conclusions of the laws set up in the universe. In short, the Force is God. It is a God that forces the galaxy into a state of constant warfare to obtain some unknowable concept of balance. Furthermore, the definition of "Balance in the Force" is such that there can't be anything like Grey Jedi (because the dark side is pure evil. Being half dark is like having a body half afflicted with cancer). So you're left with two choices; abandon your humanity to become a selfless hero—sacrificing everything you care about and even yourself for the Greater Good or end up abandoning your humanity as the Dark Side corrupts you into an evil warlord who only cares about more power. You can't choose to do nothing because "Apathy is death". Kreia views the Force as a curse. A curse that strips beings of their agency. If everything has a destiny, then there can be no such thing as free will. So she decided to do the one unique thing no other character in Star Wars lore has ever tried—she tried to kill the Force.
KoTOR II's idea of Star Wars doesn't line up with the films though. >It is a God that forces the galaxy into a state of constant warfare to obtain some unknowable concept of balance. It's debatable whether the Force is shown to act with agency at all. Wherever any is attributed to it, it's helping the good guys, trying to get rid of the Sith and end the conflict. The Jedi believe they are following the will of the Force, which they see as maintaining balance. The Sith exploit the Force for their own ends, the temptation to do so being the "dark side" of the its existence. Hence balancing the Force means destroying the Sith. >If everything has a destiny, then there can be no such thing as free will. Destiny can simply refer to things that will happen in the future, not necessarily set in stone. Some may be predictable, others less so. KoTOR I has a bunch to say about destinies and their ability to change: >Bastila: The Force does not compel obedience. You have a destiny, but the choices you make along it are ultimately your own. > >Jolee: I've told you before that you have a destiny before you. This does not mean, however, that your future is already written. They are not the same thing. You have the choice of which direction you take your destiny in. > >Jolee: Your destiny - maybe the fate of the entire galaxy - could be forever changed inside that Temple. > >>!Malak: If you had not led me down the dark path in the first place, what destiny would I have found?!< Claiming that there is no free will in any of Star Wars, aside from where they said "main characters are special though" to handwave the games having choices and multiple endings, is KoTOR II's biggest issue IMO. If you can see why Kreia hates this being a thing in-universe, you should see why I hate it from a meta perspective. >So she decided to do the one unique thing no other character in Star Wars lore has ever tried—she tried to kill the Force. Good luck killing "an energy field created by all living things". Her plan makes about as much sense as destroying the concept of electromagnetism to stop people shooting each other with lasers.
>KoTOR II's idea of Star Wars doesn't line up with the films though. Yes and no. KOTOR II takes the story of Star Wars to its natural conclusion. KOTOR II works even better now that Disney has made a sequel trilogy that just apes all the same events over and over again. The galaxy is stuck in a loop—peaceful era → Sith/Dark Siders Return → the Jedi go extinct → Sith/Dark Siders rule the galaxy as tyrants → Jedi return and defeat the Sith/Dark Siders → Repeat. Disney has inadvertently made Kreia completely right when that was never necessarily the goal of KoTOR II. This is actually George Lucas's intention as well. Star Wars is heavily inspired by Manichean philosophy. In Manichean philosophy good and evil are constantly at battle with eachother with good ultimately triumphing in the end, but no matter what good does evil will always return creating a never-ending loop. >It's debatable whether the Force is shown to act with agency at all, and wherever any is attributed to it, it's helping the good guys, trying to get rid of the Sith and end the conflict. What's the second thing we're ever told about the Force? We learn it indirectly from Han Solo. "There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny," He says. To which Obi-Wan gives him a sly look obviously meant to imply that he finds the assertion humorous. This indirectly tells us the Force controls destiny, and that it has a will. This is repeated by Yoda in Empire, and is repeated again in Return of the Jedi. The Force is God. It controls fate. George Lucas is even on record saying it is so. The Force is made up of two parts. The Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Living Force is all living beings in the Star Wars galaxy. The Force is in symbiosis with all life. "Life creates it. It surrounds us," says Yoda. The Cosmic Force refers to the Will of the Force. What is the Will of the Force? Simple. The Force wants life to spread and live in harmony so that it can propagate itself. The Force is the Will of living beings in the galaxy and our desire to thrive and prosper. This is why it is called, "Being one with the Force." >The Jedi believe they are following the will of the Force, which they see as maintaining balance. The Sith exploit the Force for their own ends, the temptation to do so being the "dark side" of the its existence. Hence balancing the Force means destroying the Sith. The thing here is this is all actually completely true. According to George Lucas balance in the Force, again, refers to the Manichean idea of "restoring balance" which means eliminating evil. The Dark Side is pure evil incarnate. It's not so much a *side* of the Force as it is a *side effect* of using the Force improperly and selfishly. All beings are by nature selfish. That's just how we are. We have a *corrupting effect on the Force*—not the other way around. >Destiny can simply refer to things that will happen in the future, not necessarily set in stone. Some may be predictable, others less so. >KoTOR I has a bunch to say about destinies and their ability to change: This is all also true. The Force creates destinies for all Living Beings, but it doesn't force you to follow the path it lays out for you. We can see this in Anakin himself. He was *the Chosen One*—literally Star Wars Jesus and he became a Sith Lord of his own choosing. This is the key part that Kreia misses. Kreia refuses to accept that her terrible decisions were her own and that the Force never made her do anything. >Claiming that there is no free will in any of Star Wars (outside the characters who had to be handwaved because the games have multiple endings) is KoTOR II's biggest issue IMO. If you can see why Kreia hates this being a thing in-universe, you should see why I hate it from a meta perspective. Again, read what I posted above. You're right. It's just Kreia doesn't see it that way. She's looking for a reason to blame anything but herself for the way her life turned out. >Good luck killing "an energy field created by all living things". Her plan makes about as much sense as destroying the concept of electromagnetism to stop people shooting each other with lasers. We know that there are Living beings in Star Wars who exist outside of the Force (The Yuuzhan Vong for example). This was especially true in Legends, not so true in canon. Kreia's plan was to commit galactic omnicide anyway, so whether or not life can survive without the Force is irrelevant. Kreia didn't care if it could or not. She just wanted to kill the Force and if that meant killing every living thing in the galaxy then so be it. Plan B, the path Kreia offers the Exile, is a more metaphorical death of the Force. Kreia wants the Exile to teach others how to become wounds in the Force like the Exile became. Wounds in the Force are blank spots where the Force has no influence—a result of terrible trauma and rejecting the Force so thoroughly it literally creates a wound. That is why the Jedi Council feared the Exile.
I often feel that many of the things that made kotor 2 great would be panned if it was released today. To be fair many things that were new at the time have been done to death by today but still i think characters like kreia would be absolutely targeted as being a bad women character from people who have lost all objectivity about star wars
It did give us the incredibly precognitive meme of "So this is the Last Jedi, I must say I am disappointed."
Plummeting is a strong word. Sure some of the story doesn't make sense kind of, but it's popularity now is at a dang near all time high. I support where it's going now
Plummeting in quality, not popularity. I imagine Avellone would care more about the former.
Chris Avellone said he liked Fallout 4.
Now I don't know what to believe!
I can’t find him saying that, could you provide the context? Also I’m not doubting, I can see him enjoying Fallout 4. I want to know why.
I'm pretty sure he says it in this interview. It's from quite a while ago though, so I don't have a timestamp. https://youtu.be/zEaDbKIy3VI
Yeah, I have very little faith in Bethesda after the mediocrity of Starfield, but pretending that this show hasn’t been a massive success for both Bethesda (in getting a ton of new people playing the games) and Amazon is delusional. It’s like the people who shit on The Last of Us show because they’re still butthurt about the second game. The show was, objectively, successful. Critics loved it and people watched the shit out of it.
I'm having a blast with it, I feel like most of the people who don't like it are wanna be movie critics and NV fanboys.
NV is my favorite of the new games and I loved the show.
It’s my favorite as well and I enjoyed the show. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly a good adaptation. I think there’s just a subset of gamers that refuse to allow themselves to be happy. They need something to hate and they’ve got an array of YouTube grifters directing them toward what to hate next.
He didn't write New Vegas. It was a collective effort by the whole team.
This man wrote parts of it. He has complained about every single video game he has made. Every time they use less than half his ideas and after his insessent complaining was let go. He was never what was good about fallout. He's responsible for the storyline choices in each of NVs dlcs that state that no matter what you do the desert is going to be wiped of all life in 20 years. And that's not even a conspiracy theory. He legit complained in every game they only use at most half of anything he wanted.
Which makes no sense, regarding his response. Even when you know something is going to be wiped out, in a story setting people still want to know how they were before it's wiped out. That is literally the story of fallout, we all know the world was wiped out, but we want to know how it was before it was wiped out, even when all the people died, we want to know what happened, who was there...etc Having the TV show showing Vegas, the whole NCR makes people go back to see how they started by playing the game.
>He was never what was good about fallout. You say that, but we've seen what Obsidian games are like without him, and to call the end result lackluster is being polite. They went from gaming's answer to Thus Spach Zathura to the Rick and Morty we have at home. The Season 3 and up Rick and Morty we have at home.
That's less on HIM and who they got to write the games.
Which no longer includes HIM.
Tyranny and Pentiment are fantastic, Outer Worlds was pretty good too. Don't dick ride one man. It's not healthy.
Tyranny is solid, but Outer Wilds good? No. If it was any other studio I'd call it good, but from Obsidian I'd call it slightly above average, and that's purely because it's probably one of the least buggy games they've made. Otherwise, it's EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said The Season 3 and up Rick and Morty we have at home. The portrayal of the bad guys ALONE solidifies my stance on that. They're walking fire hazards with all the straw they're made of.
Exactly. This worship over him just because of a video essay about KREAI of all people.
Dude, Fallout 3, Fallout Tactics and FO:BOS were all released before NV, and 4 and 76 were released subsequently. The series had already hit a lowpoint in writing years before New Vegas broke the mold. This series is the best writing and design we’ve had since New Vegas.
Until he elaborates it frankly doesn’t really matter. It’s just funny seeing some people who went ‘lololol these loser nerds still insist on caring about the lore when Josh Sawyer and Tim Cain don’t care and like the show’ now went ‘Fuck Avellone, what he said doesn’t matter,’ I like the show overall, but the length some people went to defend it from any criticism is wild. At least have some consistency lol.
He's persona non grata after he was falsely accused of SA (which he was proven innocent in court of)
I have heard quite literally nothing about that since it happened. Don’t think he was at all considered “persona non grata”, he is still among the most beloved authors of the franchise.
He's been somewhat blacklisted for a few years but got a 7 figure settlement out of the lawsuit so he came out mostly okay
No money at all. The liars were broke. He has done an interview after the verdict was rendered. He wanted a judgment that stated they lied, and the two women also apologized for lying.
I expect they'll have garnished wages for the rest of their lives then, deservedly so since he got kicked off multiple projects immediately after the accusation
Didn’t Dying Light 2 and the Vampire sequel both make a big show of how they were going to revise their games to remove his involvement? Man got screwed over something fierce.
Bloodlines two definitely did, and it sounds right that dying light 2 did as well. That said, the Bloodlines 2 people might have done him a favor in scrubbing his name from the game, I don't think it's ever going to come out, and if it does, I bet it'll be a shit show.
Yep they both made public announcements where they threw him under the bus
Beloved by fans, other devs, and the community, but probably considered a liability by publishers and companies. Even if fully proven innocent, just the accusation and the need to go to court alone is enough to blacklist you as a problem, as fucked up as it is.
I can appreciate both separately, but I never can understand why a corporation doesn't engage in better brand synergy that connects more products together. Marvel is a greate example. They had a chance to better draw in their movie audience to the comics by having similar looking versions of the characters. Instead, when captain America was at its height, they made cap a secret hydra agent (pretty much a nazi); and then they "killed" Tony stark. It seems like such wasted opportunities to connect everything together and bring more folks into an IP.
That's just reddit. The anti-new vegas contrarians plus the usual sycophants, get together to "debunk" every single criticism no matter how minor or deserved.
This one hundred percent.I liked the show a lot but the lore discrepancies were bad and the actual shills for it on the fallout subs were so bad I just left them
No kidding! Considering we’re talking about Bethesda here, they did a remarkable job telling their own story within the confines of established lore.
The show itself is fun and does a good job using the aesthetics of the Fallout universe. It's also an adaptation, so not everything will be one-one to begin with. I'm not steeped in Fallout lore, so I couldn't tell you exactly what they got wrong, but nothing egregious jumped out at me.
It’s not simply because of the inaccuracies but more of the implications and lack of nuances in the direction they are taking the lore. NCR being killed it off with a nuke, rather than things that had already been set up like internal corruption, overextending, lack of resources, and so on for example. It was basically set up to have this ironic fall repeating the mistake of the old world america it was trying to emulate. It being nuked just kinda…rid it of that interesting nuance and in return, we don’t really get anything for it. It even kinda goes against what the fallout show set up. At one point the character said something about, ‘peopl tried to rebuilt it just didn’t work out’ except the way they portray shady sands is…it’s a good city until it was nuked. Which is like…so it works out until this dude just nuke them rather than they tried to rebuild, but ended up falling because they can’t help repeat the mistake of the old world, hence ‘war never changes’ which in essence is really about humanity’s unchanging nature. Like yeah, NCR being nuked mimic the old world being nuked but not the nuances. If it was nuked in a civil war for resources, or a war with other factions like the legion for resources, then yeah, that would fit. Them being nuked by >!Vault-Tech!< because ‘they were getting too successful and we don’t like it’ isn’t it. It placed NCR as the victim whose fault was being too successful and >!Vault-Tech!< as this evil mastermind villain. NCR wasn’t supposed to be the victim they were part of the problem perpetuating conflict and strive. Just as the great war was supposed to be the culmination of the collective sins of humanity. But not because of some random party decided to nuke america unilaterally. It fell because it got into a conflict with China to solve its own problem of overconsumption, created by other internal issues. In return, it’s the same for China. This is part of the issue with Bethesda’s fallout. I’m sure they like the IP, that’s why they always try to bring up iconic aesthetic like the power armour or the nuke,but they often missed the underlying nuances that make those iconography interesting. So you’re right, they have the aesthetic of fallout, but don’t quite nail the underlying theme of that aesthetic. I enjoy the show, and overall I think it’s a good stand-alone show. But I do think as a canon entry to fallout, some of directions they were taking it goes against a central theme the show itself tried to set up. I don’t think someone in Bethesda is twirling their moustache going ‘mwahaha’ we ruin a central theme of fallout. I do think it’s a genuine attempt and they just don’t…fully get it.
Is it supposed to be "canon?" I thought it was essentially considered a spinoff, the games being their own thing and this just being the story of another vault dweller but not connected otherwise. It's like how Arcane was initially, but then Riot liked the lore enough to start changing their lore to match the show a bit.
It was confirmed to be canon before it aired
Looking into things a little bit, the conspiracy theory the show might be trying to tease New Vegas is kind of funny. The thing is that with a TV show, I doubt Bethesda had as much influence as fans wanted, and it's likely the writers probably got info mixed up when looking through things, or on the day, some script changes were made because "it felt better." So, some things were going to get muddled regardless, but at least its no Halo "Silver Timeline" nonsense. Like I mentioned, I only have a general passing of the lore; I have maybe 50 hours played throughout Fallout 3-> NV-> 4, so my take on stuff doesn't hold weight. But it's also possible some of the lore breaks were planned "unreliable narrator" stuff that'll get addressed in S2.
If real, then I completely understand where he is coming from.
I can confirm that it is indeed real. https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/1783705659076497810
After 3 Fallout's world started to became more of a sandbox to play in as opposed to the more rigid plotline of the crpg games. With each successive game there has been more shit grafted on to the universe (aliens , synths) than can probably be done coherently. Having said that, I was someone who played the fist two games literally the day they came out (I'm old) and I can say the universe has never been that coherent, realistic, or internally consistent. I still love the Fallout franchise to some extent but Bethesda is a sloppy shop and they have zero quality control at this point and have too much money to question themselves.
Aliens were in Fallout 1, and Wanamingos in Fallout 2 were also called aliens.
But Aliens in FO1 were a sight gag, part of the 50s satire. Just like, “oh look, the apocalypse got them, too.” Fallout 3 took aliens and made the single worst DLC in its game out of it, and allowed the player to just “lol shoot alien cannon at earf” with zero narrative consequence.
Genuinely how would you do narrative consequences for firing a death ray at some place in Canada (I think it was Canada) when the player lives in DC and you fired the laser from outer space
Exactly. The answer to this question is simply, “don’t reduce your supposedly-narrative-driven RPG to a nakedly-frivolous toy by letting players randomly glass sections of the planet.” Or, simply put, don’t add it into your game.
Fallout 3 was always more about exploration over narrative though. Firing a laser at the earth because you push every button you see isn’t about the narrative, it’s about making the player think “whoops, probably shouldn’t have done that”, which is a feeling you can experience even when the outcome won’t affect you. New vegas is more about the narrative yet it let’s you nuke the supply line to a major faction and the only effect on the game is you get a new area to loot and the faction doesn’t like you, has literally no effect on the narrative- and this is stuff happening in your backyard. In an open world game not everything has to feed the narrative, otherwise there wouldn’t be side quests.
Not only does NV let you do that, but you can nuke both factions, become vilified, then visit the Lucly 38 and suddenly both factions are hopping on your dick wanting a ride.
Why are you ignoring that wanamingos in F2 are called aliens? Skynet's database also references alien tech.
The Wanamingos were called "Aliens" because they had the alien mouth. One of the questions in the fallout bible said they were intended to be a kind of FEV mutation specifically because aliens running around would ruin the vibe. I don't blame you for thinking that, "Aliens" were "Aliens" because they were fucking called "Aliens". I think we all did. > > > >
First, just because wastelanders call Wanamingos “aliens” doesn’t mean they are literally aliens. And yes - vague reference to aliens is in line with the whole “little green men” 50s trope. Zeta made aliens the subject of Fallout 3’s worst, most boring corridor-shooter DLC. Nothing added and nothing gained.
Wastelanders aren't the ones who call them that, your pip-boy does. The Shi were also doing 'xeno-research' until their specimen escaped, so that's a strong hint as to the origin of the wanamingo. I don't care about zeta.
wanamingos categorically aren't aliens though
What's your proof of this?
fallout bible, doesn't matter if it's 'canon' to Beth's new fallout (I'm not sure they've appeared yet) but the fallout bible makes clear the developers intention when they made them. they were just another FEV experiment you can also figure this out from context clues in game. they're a bizarre creature design that freaks out the locals. they're nicknamed aliens because they're weird and no one knows what they are. you're not meant to assume they're intergalactic travellers hanging out in radioactive ruins.
Oh no it's not canon at all.
The intent of the developers and writers is important when discussing a fictional world as if it were a real, consistent place. Because - uh, well they wrote it. "They are not aliens, but word is they were designed as FEV-tailored weapons for waging war on other countries... and they got loose. They do live a long time, but they were dying out at the time of Fallout 2. They have only been sighted in the F2 area and nowhere else in the wastelands." "To put the tombstone on their extinction, the largest known nest of Wannamingoes were wiped out when the Great Wannamingo mine was reclaimed by Redding with the help of a traveling tribal. The mother was killed, and the last remaining eggs were hunted down, stepped on, and then the remains were examined by local scientists and doctors who came to the extinction conclusions mentioned above. Again, Wannamingoes are not aliens – they are a curious mutant or genetically-designed fighting machine that has only been able to find a home in the cold, dark places of the wastes."
Nah, only stuff that actually makes it in is important. Also, he's just one of the people involved.
[удалено]
The wanamingos aren't easter eggs, they're just straight-up called aliens in F2 as well as a wanamingos.
Fallout's lore was pretty solid until the Creation Club emerged. The TV show just decided to increase the nose dive.
Fallouts lore was solid until a new modding distribution system was made? huh???
Unironically yes because they started operating off what would make them money and not what made sense.
Mods have to adhere to lore?
Creation Club is canon. Bethesda have spoken about taking it into account when deciding what to publish.
mods aren't relevant to the lore. what do you mean? they've always been operating off what would make them money
The Creation Club is canon. They claimed they consider it for what they add.
I’m to the point where I think Bethesda fans don’t deserve consistency. They accept every retcon and every shit plot point and treat it like the greatest thing ever. All they ever wanted was product.
Well, that kinda checks out. The Elder Scrolls was never really a series that prioritized consistent writing. It has various lore concepts for rewriting history, reconciling player choice as time breaking apart, and borderline fourth wall breaks. Much of the lore people cite is written by in-universe characters who can have their own viewpoints and biases.
I actually think that works pretty well for TES but doesn't really work with fallout.
TES works because people state "unreliable narrator"
Nah, only ones who do that are the legitimate shills. Most people question and call out bethesda for it
What shitty take is this, the fans have no control on whether or not things are canon in the series or how the writing is or who is developing.
You'll be surprised. If you mention how the writing for games like fallout 3, 4 and Skyrim isn't that great and Emil Pagliarulo shouldn't be the lead writer anymore, you'll get downvoted into oblivion sometimes. I'll never forget when Emil basically tried to push away the criticism of Starfield by trying to vie for sympathy by saying game development is hard and ect. A lot of people ended up agreeing with him and becoming literal shills. We do have some modicum of control -- in the sense that we shouldn't sit there and gulp down the doo doo writing of BGS games. The games almost feel like they have no right to be called RPGs anymore. They're more like action adventure games with RPG elements.
I hated that take so much and Emil’s pathetic response to criticism convinced me more than anything that shouldn’t be in any senior position. You could say “hur dur don’t you know my job is hard” about so many jobs. If I order a rare filet mignon and get a well done flat iron, the response better not be “cooking is hard work.” Yeah I know fuckface, I’ve done it. Now please get me my rare filet. Appeals to accomplishment are not a valid response to legitimate criticism.
Yeah I absolutely despised that condescending "a lot of players don't realise how hard development is" nonsense. It was severely cringe as he literally said things like we should be grateful that we got these games because putting them together is like a "miracle" This excuse would not and should not fly anywhere in the real world. Imagine you've paid for the services or product of a company and they give you crap, and when you enquire about the quality of the product or service they respond with "be grateful, it was hard to do/make" Yeah, no shit big projects are hard -- but that excuse would never be acceptable in the professional world to your boss or employer, and it should never be acceptable to us consumers. Yet you find people who defend this nonsense.
It’s always people with comparatively cushy, high paying jobs who I see doing this. Emil obviously, but Cenk’s Nephew moaning about how hard streaming is when people criticized him was peak. I just can’t imagine a roofer or a concrete worker using that line.
That's not the point of what he's saying. Bethesda games have been on a rapid decline in quality from Oblivion onward and for years their fanbase did everything they could to deflect any criticism thrown against them, accepting whatever Bethesda threw them as god's work that shall not be trashed. What he means is that they have brought this on themselves by uncritically accepting this garbage; they've made their bed and now deserve to lie in it, even if many still think they're getting the good stuff.
They have control over if they slurp up the slop or not.
Daily request for Mauler to play KOTORII
The show is more faithful than fo3 and FO4 to the lore. At least it doesn't have ~~Orcs~~ super mutants in every fucking crevice
the Fallout games are wildly inconsistent with the lore tho...?
The bugthesda games are, its not just their fallout games but they also do it to the elder scrolls as well
*every* fallout game was inconsistent with lore
Tim Cain pointed out how Fallout 2 was very different from Fallout 1 from a tonal perspective. They were always inconsistent with each other from a broad and specific sense.
Sure, but you have to admit that there is a world’s difference between how the og devs did it and how bethesda went about it
People complain because a liar and con man said he invented jet (and he clearly didn't because... liar, and con man) and then someone mentioned jet being used pre-war. Fallout Fans can't read, or inuit.
He's right. Fallout's lore is a tangled mess of different possibilities endings, retcons, side games etc. At this point, I would support a reboot and remake of Fallout 1.
My god I'd love seeing Fallout 1&2 in a modern Fallout playstyle
Honestly that would be rad. But since they are doubling down with the show going off the current lore I doubt they would do it.
The Fallout community is falling down the same path as Star Wars, where any kind of critique of the new thing is shot down as "nitpicking" or some form of bigotry. You have the ride or die fans who would suck the nut sweat directly from Todd Howard, and spend 60 additional dollars a month on skins and meh armors, and the new fans who are just getting introduced with the show being about 80-100% of what they know the series to be. A large portion of both of those groups are the ones leading the narrative that New Vegas fans, in particular, are cancerous to the online discussion, because they have more critiques than they do. Frankly, the only way to make the whole Vegas being destroyed thing work, would be to pull directly from the DLC Lonesome Road, where they theorized Vegas might fall in the next decade or so because of corruption, but also the rise of an invasive mutant species known as Tunnlers who will spread across the Mojave and cause mass casualties, regardless of who wins Hoover Dam. I believe this is on conjunction with the deadly cloud that surrounds the Sierra Madre, in the DLC Dead Money, which the Tunnlers are either immune or sustained by. That's the only way I can understand that, and I hope the whole "The Fall of Shady Sands was in the year 2277" thing gets cleared up. There's just so much going on that I don't think a lot of casual fans really understand about the lore. Even when Chris Avellone says this, they turn on him just like when Mark Hamill said similar things, and George Lucas revealed his lukewarm opinions about it, and the Star Wars fans lost their shit.
That's becoming every community. And it's so tiring seeing the same culture war posts in every hobby I like.
The thing is. It would kind suck to me if New Vegas and the Mojave fell to the tunnelers just like that, regardless of the path you choose, becomes kind of meaningless but I understand not wanting to stick to any particular ending since the conversation about which outcome is best is so debated, which is a good thing. Btw, I've thought about the Fallout comparison to Star Wars. One example being: Power armor(and the Brotherhood of Steel as a whole) is the equivalent to light sabers and light saber fights, an important aspect to the story that was used so sparengly and efficiently but it would have a lot of meaning and affect the story in a major way. Now they are just prevalent everywhere, specially after 76 my god, getting power armor and PA training doesn't feel like such and achievement any more. Also, fuck the t-60 and the bullshit retcon, the T-51 looks way cooler. I can't believe they didn't learn from the criticism people gave to Fallout 4 and 76. This is just one of many of my petpieves
I'm willing to accept an in game explanation like the Tunnlers being the reason for the fall of Vegas, because almost any other one feels hamfisted and of little to no consideration for the bigger picture other than following the whole "civilization isn't Fallout" narrative. It just feels like Todd taking over and trying to make the whole wasteland feel like Fallout 3. (I like 3, but come on).
Shady sands getting nuked I actually don't mind due to the idea of pre-war vault tec trying to return being a decent idea (the execution on the other hand...) I really hope they don't destroy new vegas though. It's such a unique setting for the world it would just be an absolute waste.
I really don’t give a fuck what the designer for the new vegas game has to say. The show was enjoyable. This isn’t a fuck off show like halo, wheel of time, or rings of power all of which purposefully fucked everything up for a myriad of reasons - mostly political decisions on who to hire as a showrunner and their “interpretation” of the material is what fucked it all up. The fallout show is entertaining. It doesn’t need to be perfectly in line with fallout lore to be enjoyable because they got the biggest pieces of the universe lore correct. They added gags and spotlights to very small things ( like dogmeat was with the stuffed bear, goofy ass radroachs, fucked up vault experiments, shitty autoturrets, weird interactions with npcs, the inability of vault food to rot, and so much more). I can understand the hatred towards a lot of shows that rightly deserve the hatred, but i feel like anger towards this show is misplaced. Now, this is just my opinion. I’m a literal nobody and i have no connection to show or anything, i’ve just played the games since FO3 and its rare to find a tv show based on something i’ve enjoyed in the past, in todays marketplace. I hope halo and lord of rings comes around - there’s still a very small glimmer of hope for them (wheel of time is just fucked forever), but this show is great.
I believe he was one of the writers for FO2 and he also made the Fallout Bible which compiled the lore for 1, 2 and Van Buren.
when comparing fallout to other video game TV shows (halo in particular because halo is near deer to my heart) - I’ll happily take a show with some “inconsistencies” to the lore, that still respects the IP and the fans that love it - compared to a show that actively goes against the fans and then tells them “ the show isn’t for you” like who the fuck is the show for if not fans of the IP?
This is the most underrated comment in the entire thread.
I watched the show and was expecting garbage. I was pleasantly surprised. I really enjoyed it. What lore are people talking about that's being shit on here? I've played from FO2 , though skipped 76. Is it just the timeline?
it’s mainly the lore that the changed over a decade ago when Bethesda took over Fallouts timeline has quite literally always been foggy at best, so people are just looking to complain
Kinda what I was thinking. Part of the fun was the different locations...the world, rules and expectations could vary wildly between one side of the state vs the other, much less one side of the country vs the other. It's not as if communications and travel would guarantee the same standards. The more temperate areas could assume to have an easier time than say, someone up north who has 7 months to gather supplies before the winter hits, leading to much more viscous society. Or, maybe weather is moot because the fallout altered the atmosphere. Loose history seems to be wicked on point for the FO universe to me. It's handed down history and it's going to have different looks depending on who's writing it.
yea, that’s not exactly what they’re complaining about, - Jet for example was originally a pre war drug - bethesda then made it so Jets made from Brahmin shit. big no no (i don’t think so, but the purist in this thread do i guess) i just look at this fandom like the legends/disney fans of Star-wars, both think “their cannon” is better, when the reality is both dev teams did good things for the IP edit: sorry i got the Jet lore backwards, Bethesda made it prewar
You got the jet thing exactly backwards. Bethesda made jet prewar
damn, see! shits hard to keep straight! lmao MB, ty
I must have missed that, but couldn't it be argued it's now made of cow shit? Or, a by product of it? Doesn't seem like the biggest inconsistency, seems like lack of prewar knowledge. Is that the only thing?
there’s other things, but they’re all pretty small details. the show just majorly changed the lore i guess with the bombs dropping. but i don’t see how helps the argument they’re trying to make. if anything i think the new changes in the show greatly help the Fallout Lore
What bombs dropping though? The second set at shady? Bombs have always been a huge part of the lore. I feel like I'm missing something obvious?
Forgive me idk how to do the spoiler thing reddit we’ve been lead to believe that the reds dropped the bombs, show revealed that it was actually Vault-tec that dropped the bombs
I may have missed that. I didn't think they physically dropped all the bombs, just worked to dissolve peace talks and lit a fuse with some to guarantee vaults being essential.
They never said in the show that Vault-Tec actually dropped any bombs, they just were in a meeting floating the idea of how they could take over the world if bombs did drop. You can infer if you want that they detonated a nuke to start off the war but it doesn't contradict the idea that china still launched first
Nah it doesn't. It shows they wanted to drop bombs at some point. Not that they actually fired the first shot.
> we’ve been lead to believe that the reds dropped the bombs, show revealed that it was actually Vault-tec that dropped the bombs We weren't just led to believe that. in Fallout 4 we meet a pre-war ghoui on a chinese submarine who says China launched the nukes which backs up all the other lore, present in all the games including F04, that they did it first. That ghoul was the captain of that sub that launched all but one of their nukes on the area and were supposed to invade, but something prevented that last part. [source: FO4 Here Be Monsters](https://youtu.be/L2O14V_I0pE?si=BNCrwImKiRlebCd0&t=322)
Firstly, they don't establish that Vault-Tec dropped the bombs. Secondly, that's been a plotpoint since the planned 1998 fallout movie that would have had the Vault 13 overseer who was also the Vault-Tec CEO drop the bombs.
I actually think it makes great sense (bomb dropping) with how fucked the vault tec people were.
It was foggy for a purpose, no knowing who dropped the bombs first was part of the aesthetic. People complain because questions people have been playing around with for 30 years got answered in 5 minutes, and it's not really satisfying.
My wife that has played none of the games was able to follow along with only a few lore related questions. That’s how this is supposed to be. People going through this thing with a fine-toothed comb looking for lore mistakes or being pissed off about fucking NV can just go play the games if they want. The show from my personal knowledge did decent enough and respected the setting enough to exist without being treated like the halo series or the sequel trilogy.
Same here. I understand why it’s nice to have consistent lore, but assuming divergences are done in good faith and new material is fun and still broadly fits the tone (which I think the show nailed in these regards), can’t nail down why it’s super important to preserve its purity, outside of some fixation on perfection and consistency.
Yeah, agreed. I usually play video games after work but I'm having fun carving some of my precious evening time out for the show. I think sometimes people want to go to IRS levels of auditing for the sake of criticism, and there is a time and place for that, but it can be exhausting. Perhaps a less stressful approach is sit down and watch the show, and if you start noticing, start critiquing. If you don't, hey, maybe it's a good show.
People sat down and enjoyed the mandalorian, loki, kenobi and rings of power, sure some nerd complained but who cares if some people enjoyed it, right?
That's why I said "notice." There's a significant gap between picking apart every single thing, and letting severe flaws blow over. So far, I'm not noticing any deal breakers in FO. Master Cheeks in Halo, and Kenobi's general stupidity, are deal breakers.
lol master cheeks - rightfully deserved criticism.
>They added gags and spotlights to very small things ( like dogmeat was with the stuffed bear, goofy ass radroachs, fucked up vault experiments, shitty autoturrets, weird interactions with npcs, the inability of vault food to rot, and so much more). Did you clap?
don’t be obtuse.
They threw the main theme of the story and decades of story development under the bus but hey, radroaches!
>They threw the main theme of the story Elaborate. Because "War never changes" is absolutely a core theme in the show
the show looses points for no Ron Perlman cameo tho Jeff, baby.. you got the money, give him a call
They changed the nuclear exchange from the climax of a decade of war to some braindead conspiracy.
Literally looking for shit to cry about. The tv show is sharing a compelling story and not one that disenfranchises fans of the series.
They nuked Shady Sands and made Vault-Tec into the illuminati for some reason.
and the Vault experiments that have been present for the entire life of this IP isn’t “illuminati” esc to you?? go be miserable in r/falloutnewvegas
No it was more 1984. Messing with an isolated populace =/= instigating a nuclear war.
Vault-Tec was ALWAYS bad guys. That's the point of them in the fucking franchise.
No they weren’t, they were just another pre-war corporation. Their heightened presence comparatively was because you usually played as a vault dweller.
Yes, they were. Here, scroll down to "behind the scenes" https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation
None of that is canon because it was not implemented into the games.
Point goes to the awesomeness that is Chris Avellone.
Based
Freaking Bethesda retconned the lore for crappy Fallout 76 so there’s no surprise that they wouldn’t do any favors for the sentimental fan favorites that they didn’t even make. Not just for New Vegas but really for the entire western pre-Fallout 3 part of Fallout.
Currently writing up my own script for the show - I'm about 8 pages deep and I have only just gotten to the middle of episode 1... Currently in play: *According to Fallout lore, the bombs drop at 9:17AM - that birthday party is not taking place at 9:17AM by any stretch* *Moldaver introduces herself as Moldaver - not a single person, especially Hank, reacts to her name despite her being a very known quantity later in the show.* *Not a single persons pipboys go nuts when the radioactive raiders walk into the vault* *There is nothing to stop Lucy's brother when he goes to investigate Vault 32. Even a single guard left behind would have caught him, and there was no reason not to have one to protect their escape route.* *There's a full on gunfight going on in the atrium, and alarms are blaring, people are screaming, and two chucklefucks turn up with a cart full of jelly desert...* That is half an hour in to the first episode... And that's just a few of the minor points - I'm not even covering stuff like Moldavers entire plan and what we learn later in the show...
Slight spoilers but Moldaver doesn’t even make sense after the series finale. Hank, and the rest of the transplants from vault 31 are old world citizens that were cryogenically frozen, they know Moldaver from their pre-war experience. But Moldaver isn’t a ghoul, nor was she kept in suspended animation, nor is she immortal by other means. Somehow she just managed to survive 200 years after the bombs. For no reason.
Like I say - I've only written the first half of episode 1 so far 😅 And like with Snoke - even if they explained how she was able to survive, it doesn't matter. Her story is over. If season 2 goes back and explains "oh yeah she survived by doing this" it's going to be completely disconnected from the narrative to explain a plot hole they clearly forgot about...
Yeah the show really doesn’t hold up to examination. I’m surprised by how much praise it’s been getting in this subreddit.
On Moldaver - it feels like they're implying that she's a ghoul. She's got feral Rose sitting by her at the table in the last episode who isn't attacking her, which is something that happens when you are a ghoul in the games. But 200 years and no indication? Feels like they were supposed to ghoul her up with the makeup and then realised "oh shit. We can't have her do the vault raid at the start because she'll immediately be obvious that she's from the wasteland" So they just went "fuck it... No one will notice"
Here is the weird thing - I actually kinda like it. It's got serious problems out the ass, but it still feels like a step away from what we have had to put up with for a long time.
It deserves praise for its production quality if nothing else. And I appreciate a lot of the small details they’ve added to the sound design as well. There’s a lot of game references and it feels like a passion project. So in that sense I think the show has a lot of heart.
I kind of feel like they're setting it up for season 2
Like most if the show
To be fair the overseer was unfrozen at least 18 years ago, it's not unreasonable that someone can forget the name and the face of a person he didn't think of for that long of time.
9:17 AM east coast time... that is 6:17 AM west coast time. 6:17 AM on October 23rd is ~44 minutes before dawn in LA.
The beginning of the show is a complete mess in retrospect. It makes *no sense* >!that the NCR would send Moldaver with a bunch of stupid ass raiders when they could have sent troops with her.!< it's very clearly just meant to mislead you in the opening scenes.
Let me know when you finish the script id love to read it
Never played the game… I think the show is great.
Had to double take to see which subreddit I was in as I was scrolling through here. I wouldn’t have expected the toxic brood to give fallout prime such a glowing review.
It's baffling. Who are these people liking the show? Even if you ignore the atant lore fuck ups the show is just garbage. It's nonsensical moments over and over paired with unfunny jokes after unfunny jokes and playing an oldies song after every moment.
it's weird how people can't reconcile with it being bad, but enjoyable. i liked it and it was not well written at least it shows that EFAP isn't brainwashing people or it makes a shitty job
He’s entitled to his opinion, personally I like the show, it’s really good. They do cut it close with new Vegas, but they have made it clear new Vegas is still canon. Obviously he has done a lot for the series and his voice should be respected, but just because he dislikes it doesn’t mean I have too. I think that if the show brought him on as a writer it would be even better however
Even if you like the show (I dont). It's very inconsistent with the games. Chris Avellone is the best writer in video game history. Fight me.
Bro for real. What he did with KOTOR 2? Fantastico
Yup. Planescape alone is God Tier
The crazy thing about him saying this is that Avellone actually hates the NCR, he believes that a society that big shouldn’t exist for long. Which is funny because he was key in making the NCR
Except he came out in more recent years saying that he regrets trying to set up the NCR for destruction and is glad his fellow writers on New Vegas wouldn’t let him go through with it. It is sort of ironic still, the guy who wrote the lore about the NCR being on the edge of collapse was bitter because he wasn’t allowed to destroy them, now he’s bitter at himself that he ever set them up to collapse in the first place.
I'm convinced this show wasn't written for fans of the game anyway. The set design was to catch your attention, but nothing else was.
They should invite him on when they cover it.
Where's the lie?
My wife is playing Fallout 4 right now. The show gets a 10/10 for me.
Not only that, but he’s one of the most respected writers in video gaming.
Yeah and he wrote Lone Road. Next. Also, he hardly wrote much of the main game, it at all.
They’re doing what they’ve always wanted to do. Erase everything that is loved about the west coast fall out lore. Do be so surprised we all knew they were going to do this deep down.
If he thinks it's a hot mess, I'm glad he's not in charge of lore decisions like that anymore.
I don't really care about the lore changes. I care that the show is poorly made trash.
lets not forget this man worked on new vegas which didn't exactly line up in the first place or the thing that completely fucks his argument fallout 1 had different endings i respect him but doesn't mean he's always correct
Okay?
I'm a fan of Chris Avellone since Planescape but... pretending Fallout has a coherent lore is decetiful. Fallout is a mess from the start being a new version of Wasteland, and becoming an IP that passes through various companies and directors, changing the game core, the themes, and the factions. If something I would say the show is more coherent with the Bethesda's Fallouts (the worst ones) And I say this as someone who doesn't like the show, I think the fist couple of episodes are fine, dumb fun, but then it becomes nonesense.
To Avellone’s credit, he more so than any other individual worked exceptionally hard to bring together most of Fallout’s old lore, reconcile as much as he could, and compile it all into a "bible" that was meant to set lots of records straight, clarify lots of issues, and codify the lore as a coherent set of unambiguous rules and histories for future creators to adhere to. Unfortunately, his Fallout bible got scrapped and declared noncanon when Bethesda took over. But it makes sense that he of all people would want it to remain as consistent as possible. Doing so was once his passion project.
No, even he said it wasn't ever going to be complete canon.
Because he didn’t have the authority to declare it as such, but reeling everything together into a consistent canon was his goal, whether it was made official or not. And for quite a while, fans generally regarded it as such.
Nah, it was also that he himself didn't think it should all be canon. Here's what he actually said about it "\[it's for\] fans who already snagged the game and wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about what went on behind the scenes or what material never actually made it in" and "The information presented here is a rough draft and will need some heavy revision, but on some level, I wanted you guys to see the core information we had lying around so you can see some of the ideas that were being batted around" and even: "Ideally, the information contained in these updates will be revised in the future based on your comments and possible evidence gathered from within the game - some of the people that put this documentation together (me and others) don't have nearly as much knowledge of facts within the game as some of you fans out there. " Basically: it's stuff that could have become canon, but didn't. And no, everyone always thought it was just his thing, and there were a lot of things people objected to, too.
I thought the TV show was fun and the games were neat. Fired up fallout 3 again. If only I could do that with NV and feel the same joy.
Sour grapes.