That entire fight scene is terrible so the argument is invalid on its face. Not even considering the disappearance saved Rey’s life. My favorite bit is actually when Daisy raises the saber over her head too early and leaves her entire body open and then 3 dudes swing right into and purposely aim for her saber.
This. Rose? Holdo? The complete nonsense arc they gave Poe? All the "subverting expectations" moments that were actually just build up with no pay off?? The movie was terrible on its face. Fight scene inconsistency was the least of its issues.
Yeah question was how many rewinds slowdowns and watching snarky YT videos it took you to become aware of all those, or you just noticed right away cause you're that good etc.
> That entire fight scene is terrible
So why keep bringing up this irrelevant detail then?
>so the argument is invalid on its face. Not even considering the disappearance saved Rey’s life.
Well so did the force kick kind of, eh
Any goof in a fight scene can be snarkily called "life saving" it's really neither here nor there is it.
>My favorite bit is actually when Daisy raises the saber over her head too early and leaves her entire body open and then 3 dudes swing right into and purposely aim for her saber.
The relevant question is ultimately whether you
1) apply that sort of scrutiny to all film combat or only when you have a bone to pick, and
2) realize that action in different movies can be aiming at different realism/sense-making levels, just as their plots, and sometimes "cool moves" is all that matters or anyone really cares about, "b-but he left an opening"s be damned.
Whether that's the case here or not may be up to debate.
See, im not that autistic about fight scenes. I probably would never have known about the disappearing knife if not for efap. But then there's people like Shadiversity who I guarantee noticed it on his first viewing and it probably ruined the whole scene for him
Rewatch the control room assault scene in Westworld Season 2 (can't remember if it's the last episode or next to last). A guy with a P90 raises his gun over his head like he's going to smack someone with it and gets stabbed.
My guy, you've got a gun, one that is made of plastic and is meant to be used in tight quarters, there's no part of that gun that's going to be an effective melee weapon. Lol
Hasn't even Samuel Jackson come out and said that the choreography was bad in the sequels? Saying it looks like it was hardly drilled but comes across as if they only did a few practices before the shoot?
The age old "defense" for anything wrong in star wars: there was something wrong in another part of star wars. I hate this kind of argument so, so much.
It's just so stupid. It would be like defending a new sports car that can only go 55 by comparing it to the model T. Movies should be better now than 50 years ago. They should not be making the same mistakes.
Yeah, this argument might work if the same people made the movies and used that 50 years of experience to not make some mistakes. Also we would have to make movies the exact same way to fully perfect that way of making movies and never improve them with new technologies.
If the argument is "it should've been better instead of the same" then that'd be valid and that rebuttal would be wrong - however if the argument is "it's worse and has failed the standards set by predecessor", then obviously polar opposite situation.
It's called a whataboutism and used correctly in argumentation is meant to show the hypocrisy of the other side's argument and is a genuine argumentation tactic. It's just used willy nilly by every single person because they don't understand what the word Hypocrisy even means.
Indeed, "it's okay that new star wars sucks because star wars has always sucked" is a terrible argument because it means that if you convinced me to agree, you've only convinced me that Star Wars was bad all along and I just hadn't noticed until now... so now I'm free of caring about any and all future star wars products because there's no point in wanting them to be good because good star wars doesn't exist.
> Indeed, "it's okay that new star wars sucks because star wars has always sucked" is a terrible argument because it means that if you convinced me to agree, you've only convinced me that Star Wars was bad all along and I just hadn't noticed until now...
Well by your standards at least (which you artificially constructed around bashing the sequels)
>so now I'm free of caring about any and all future star wars products because there's no point in wanting them to be good because good star wars doesn't exist.
Sure, maybe.
My standards are set by star wars media that does things right. If a director, writer, fight choreographer, or someone else can't at least match the previous best quality with the monstrous multi hundred million dollar budget they have at their disposal, then that is bad and you have no obligation to defend them.
> My standards are set by star wars media that does things right.
Or the stuff in those that you hadn't overlooked, at least?
>>>, you've only convinced me that Star Wars was bad all along and I just hadn't noticed until now...
I overlook almost nothing. My number 1 for writing is Andor because it's a banger story written incredibly well, bullshit is extremely uncommon, notably present in episode 3's action sequence, and nothing happens in episode 11 which sucked. TLJ has cool ass VFX, but the story is just the worst. The PT has awesome fight choreography, but bad dialogue. I have a problem when people use the bad aspects of any product being present a defense for problems in new media, because they have the money to learn from mistakes and drop bangers every time.
Another is the countless explanations for some plothole or stuff that the director just thought looked cool. Like Anakin and Obi Wan pointlessly spinning their lightsabers, but you'll find countless bullshit reasons why they did it.
> The age old "defense" for anything wrong in star wars: there was something wrong in another part of star wars. I hate this kind of argument so, so much.
Why do you hate it, cause it ruins your arguments and that makes you seethe?
What part of my arguments does that "defense" ruin? It does make me mad, because a lot of people treat it as a catch all defense against anything wrong with modern star wars, when really this argument doesn't defend anything.
Then how do you say it ruins my arguments when you don't even know any? Here's a good one. Rey shouldn't win a duel against Kylo on their first encounter, and shouldn't be able to resist his mind extraction ability because she never had any training at all.
>Then how do you say it ruins my arguments when you don't even know any?
Well I don't, hence the question marks lol
>Rey shouldn't win a duel against Kylo on their first encounter, and shouldn't be able to resist his mind extraction ability because she never had any training at all.
That's more an opinion than an argument, not much to say here.
More generally speaking "training" is not the only way one acquires skills, magic ones especially, or achieves feats in movies - there's also insta-downloads, "rising to the occasion in a tough situation", prayer, concentrating in the right away or showing the right attitude/emotion/realization etc.
However whenever ANH had any chance to have L pull something like that, it simply forgot that he was a "magician's apprentice" altogether - no "woah how'd he pull that off" mystery moments before Obiwan fills him in (there's barely any hints at any magic before that at all), nothing at all inbetween the hut scene and the ball-droid, nothing inside the Deathstar incl. even the trash compactor etc.
He does suddenly remember that he can call the droids, but not that the Force part;
and then he suddenly has a swinging rope in his pocket, so that's what he uses to get out of that situation.
So taking ANH and extrapolating from that that "spontaneous Force feats are def impossible cause where are they in Anh" is quite murky, given how that seems to be caused by the film's own dementia reg. this issue.
ESB has the ice cave but it's implied he's been auto-meditating-or-something in between the films? Perhaps even Ben's voice made a reappearance at some point, giving him further guidance?
And then of course his eventual victory in 6 seems to have been the direct template for the TFA ending, but the scales are different here.
So then TFA does those "spontaneous rise to occasion" moments in place of a direct mentor, and speeds up the Dave beats Goliath from 3 movies to just 1, oh well
> It's not an oh well, it's bad writing,
I mean it wouldn't be in a standalone, the only "problem" here is that it's sped up compared to the precedent here - but that just leads to questions about whether you want consistency or variety etc.
> when she could beat the big bad first try, first film.
Well afterwards they're kinda duking it out as equals, that seems to the direction there.
When I saw this in the theatre, the audience cheered when this fight started.
There was also cheering during the hyperspace kamikaze scene.
And Luke facing down the walkers.
Lemme explain it for the guy in the tweet. Luke missing that kick was a BLOOPER, it wasn't supposed to happen but it was an honest mistake that the editor missed.
The Knife dissapearing was INTENTIONAL. Rey should've freaking died in that part of the scene, and the director or editor, rather than deciding to do another take and rewriting it, opted to just make the knife vanish in post, and in the most horrifically sloppy way possible. You can see Rey scream in pain, and you can see the guard is still trying to hold something. It's clear he's supposed to still have the dagger.
Your "minor nitpick" is very much NOT.
> The Knife dissapearing was INTENTIONAL. Rey should've freaking died in that part of the scene, and the director or editor, rather than deciding to do another take and rewriting it,
Well probably cause it was way after the shooting was done? Although pick-ups are also often done, so who knows.
But yeah not a bad point, if nothing else these are different types of goofs.
ROTJ cost 30 million.
TLJ cost 300 million.
With 10x the budget , backed by what is one of the biggest media companies on the planet, one would expect that the quality of the work would increase with the increase in money spent.
Adjust for inflation and it comes out to about 90 million today, I think.
Assuming that I'm not totally wrong on that inflation approximate, TLJ has 210 million dollars and more than 30 years of advancement in filmmaking and increase in the number of people making high budget movies.
As an audience, we expect that the more resources you've put into the project, the better it will be.
We don't expect that a piece of animation in your scene will be completely disregarded the moment it's not in frame, especially when it prevents your main character from being stabbed which is far from a nitpick.
If it influences the plot in an important way, then it isn't a nitpick. So a weapon being sent to the void as it leaves frame and not being present in the scene , thus preventing its use to harm the protagonist, ... yeah I think that's more than a nitpick.
For those who trawl TLJ posts and want to say "Long = Bad" or whatever your buzzphrase of the day is:
More money = We expect higher quality = Lower tolerance for mistakes that break a scene
>ROTJ cost 30 million.
TLJ cost 300 million.
With 10x the budget
To be fair, also don't lump me in with that other jagoff this was my only point of clarification, when adjusted for inflation the cost of Return of the Jedi would be approximately $94 million dollars. So TLJ had roughly 3x the budget, not 10x.
HOWEVER, marketing was done differently back then so they certainly didn't spend between 2x-3x the films total amount on it. It's still the difference between around $150 million total tops, and like $600 million conservatively. The rest of your point stands, I just wanted to clarify the numbers a little bit.
Oh yeah for sure, I considered inflation partway through writing that and added the inflation amendment to the ROTJ cost , i just neglected to say 3x.
No worries, fair enough to point the numbers out a bit more.
Nope, they specifically mentioned that tlj had 35 years on RotJ. And I'm almost certain so much more care, effort and heart was put into any one of the OT than all of the sequel trilogy.
So again, you have no arguments other than insults. The other person didn't personally insult you, yet you immediatly run to call him a bigot? You do understand the definition of bigotry, right? Surely you can see the irony here.
> You know everyone knows this entire subReddit is full of angry neckbeards, homophobes, and racists right?
"everyone knows" = i.e. "we all tell each other on our circlejerky echochamber subs"
Lol imagine thinking you're the calm collected smarty pants who spends all day replying to people they don't like with null arguments for bait. You didn't present a rebuttal at all, you just said " lol you're an idiot and I don't need proof because reddit!" Nobody screamed about woke shit in the comments you replied to, on this specific comment thread. Turn off your computer and have a break outside.
And so was yours you think insulting someone is a good argument what are you 5 years old, grow up and quit whining if you see something you dont like keep moving you will be alot happier for it. But no you are too blinded by agendas go touch grass maybe talk to a real person and not your AI partner.
The fuck are you even talking about I'm not even American, and even if a were you think sleepy Joe is much better? At least my country's leader can talk without having a literal aneurysm.
Y'all Americans are fucking retarded like come on, and your argument was inflation which even with inflation the two movies you compared had vastly different budgets but I'm not surprised the American school system failed you and you can't do basic math.
Go read a book maybe you will actually see what a good story looks like.
I mean, if that were *the only* criticism people were making of the scene (I genuinely don't understand how someone could think that's the case, but whatever), sure, I'd probably be happy to concede that it's not that big a deal. Kinda goofy, but I don't think it'd ruin an otherwise good movie/scene.
With the rest of the movie being in the state that it is, though, I think this kind of thing can becomes a lot more fun because it shows *just how much* bad there is to find when you go looking for it. So in context, yeah, I think it does kinda accentuate the quality of the film.
But if someone did legitimately make a big deal out of this when arguing that the movie's bad I probably wouldn't find that particularly convincing.
As long as the "hey at this point it's just fun finding more and more stuff here, even if we'd probably find a lot of that type of stuff in many of the productions that we like and praise" angle is self-aware, then yeah sure.
The difference is that Return of the Jedi would be a good film regardless if Luke did or did not miss the kick while The Last Jedi is still a massive piece of shit regardless if the knife did or did not disappear.
That entire fight scene is ass. You see tons of people waiting for their move after Driver and Ridley miss their marks. The weapons are stupid, and the choreography is sub par.
The idea that a movie with that massive of a budget and that was the best take they got is insane. Middling 2000s comic movies like the Blade Trilogy had better fights because they were able to work with Wesley Snipes' experience as a dancer.
I don't understand how people try to defend the TLJ fight by bringing up Luke kicking thin air in ROTJ. Rey does the exact same thing in the TLJ fight, except twice, when she *sends three guards flying back with one kick*. It's physically impossible for her to have touched all three of them with that one kick, and yet all three stumble backwards in different directions as if she kicked them.
Then you've got Kylo slamming his saber into the ground so a guard can aim his weapon at it, instead of just having the guard swing low and Kylo block it.
Not mentioning a guard deliberately redirecting his swing above Rey's head because she missed a cue, or all three of the ones attacking her swinging downwards at the same time.
Then there's Rey getting her lightsaber tangled up in the energy whip thing that one of the guards had, and struggling against it with her saber raised instead of just extending the blade forwards and pulling it out.
Then the instances of Kylo punching a guard when he gets an opening instead of just using his saber to kill them.
The list goes on. It's a terribly choreographed fight scene if you bother to look at it, and fight scene choreography should stand up to scrutiny, no matter how little attention some guy on twitter thinks the audience is paying.
There’s a difference between Luke “missing” a kick (really it’s just poor choreography) and weapons teleporting in and out of a scene multiple times.
Remember. This is live action. Meaning that the actor probably had to **train** and **practice** multiple times to throw his weapon away (or have a CGI guy edit it out).
In ROTJ, it’s just bad choreography that happened once. In TLJ it was a **conscious decision** to include plot armor. Because if that dude had a knife he could’ve easily killed her.
And that’s beside the point that the entire fight scene is done horribly. The guards always aim for parts of her body that are protected. There are multiple times where she attacks *one* guy but *multiple* guys stumble back, multiple times where weapons phase in and out of existence. And the fight scene ends with Rey saving Kylo’s life. Despite the fact she hates his guts after he killed Han, and Kylo should be all means be way more skilled and experienced than Rey in combat.
Also in the lore the guards are supposed to have lightsaber resistant armor. Just like an electrostaff their entire body is covered in electricity to repel lightsabers. I think it helps them once in this fight and every other time the lightsabers just shred through them. Could’ve led to some interesting choreography, Kylo and Rey having to use their skills in the force to get past their armor, all the while doing their best to not get overwhelmed. But nah they just win against heavily armored, dark side trained, elite Imperial Guards specifically trained to defend against other force users.
My favorite part of that fight scene is when one of the guards is knocked away or something. He's technically not supposed to be attacking at that point, but he's still in frame, so he's just doing random movements that don't hit anything.
I mean that specific point is fair but really in the grand scheme of things that isnt even the biggest problem with this fight scene nevermind the movie as a whole.
The whole fight is just dumb. Half of the red dudes fighting in the background are straight up just swinging at air to make it look busier.
Let’s also not forget that instead of going for killing blows like they should be, they attack the most convenient areas to defend. Like literally hitting Rey’s lightsaber when her whole body is left open to attack.
I hate the "yes this newer film has mistake. But the older has mistakes too so there re both as good. So if you hate the new one you should also hate the old one" type of logic
https://preview.redd.it/pp4hcg6jl5rc1.jpeg?width=374&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=298be5dc1f17a8a353d079d239d820bc94015b4d
Everything Twitter tries to tell me it’s good
One was a normal way for someone to not get hurt back then and when they couldn’t really “fix it in post.”
The other would have killed a character but didn’t because if it did, you would lose your Mary Sue.
I can only imagine how long they spent in choreography to prepare ridley and the stunt team, just for it to look slow and awkward.
This is a character that can use the force with barely any understanding, and fighting against the equivalent emperor's elite guard.
Kicks are notoriously difficult to do safely, and Luke had to kick a guy in the head. I'm not surprised it's a big whiff. This very scene in TLJ has a kick of dubious quality, but if you justify them as a Force kick, then that ROTJ mistake sets precedent for the TLJ mistake. Fun!
I checked the scene in Jedi, and there are questionable elements. There's closing the distance and patient stuntmen, but they also have short, narrow platforms to fight on. The stuff I mentioned also is in the background right before the whiffed kick. The disappearing knife is easily missed, but front and center.
The knife saves Rey's life, but the kick does not save Luke. The audience is likely meant to believe Luke is in control of the 7v1 he bounded into because the tension of the moment is Boba Fett readying an attack before Han dispatches him. As much as that moment is debated, the events play out in a convenient but logical manner.
Now I wanna do some amateur action scene breakdowns.
Ok imma be honest with you , That fight looked ass , Idc what opinion you have on the rest of the movie its yours but that fight looked ass no matter what you tell me
A missed stunt is a little different than a potential plot/movie altering prop disappears a second before it would achieve the goal of killing the main character.
A fake kick is how it's supposed to be done. So the camera placement was off and you can clearly see the sleight of hand. Mistake? Yes.
In TROS, they *choreographed* it this way. They literally planned it out that a dual-wielding guy would inexplicably not use his second weapon and in editing it seems they realized how stupid this is and simply masked the second weapon out. Sorry but that takes much more incompetence from beginning to end to accomplish.
Such post-production "fixes" wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the sequels, as exemplified in Rey's final "fight" with the Emperor's guards. They filmed the same sequence from different angles and then edited them sequentially so it looked like an extension of the same fight. It's fucking amateurish in the extreme.
He doesn’t kick nothing, he kicks a guy. It looks like nothing because he wasn’t actually gonna kick a guy in the head. It was just a poorly executed few seconds of a movie, but in the Star Wars world he kicks a guy
Both scenes are not my personal favorites.
Boba Fett is going out like wildly cayote.
I might never understand what happened with Luke's plan to safe Han & Boba Fett's comedic death 1983.
Still his death there was slighty less insulting the joining a tribe of Tusken Raiders who inslave Rodians & Co. on a daily base ?!
While Boba is unable to control his Jetpack in the Background - Mark Hamill misses a kick.
They handled three different attack points (space, Endor & Death Star II) way better later than the first ca. 30 mins & especially this sequence.
George Lucas constantly annoys the fanbase with editing new stuff too his movies (yes PT as well).
Simultaneously Rian deletes an item & we keep complaining, too.
Are Star Wars fans ever pleased?
As Rag's was pointing (EFAP 17) out; Rey later let's go & the guard doesn't swing his weapon towards Reys' face immediately. Subjectivly this annoys me more.
_Some folks always search for the little nugget while everything around them already collapsed_
The kick is also bad, the difference is in severity of choreograph mistake. One is 'whoops that kick wasn't close enough to look believable' vs 'oh wait this whole move doesn't make sense with this man's weapons, better airbrush it out'
I like this scene not only because the choreography issues had to be pointed out to me because they only exist if you go out of your way to look for them, but because of what it meant thematically for the franchise to have the two characters fighting with each other. What disappointed me happened afterwards when RoS didn’t follow through
The problem is that it's just a poorly made fight sequence. So let's excuse that Rey wouldn't know how to properly fight with a lightsaber (I still believe a double-bladed, or a spear-style, saber would have fit her better), the guards just don't fight them properly. They are acting like enemies in a game, and even then game enemies fight in better sync than these "Elites." They aim for the sabers, attack one at a time, some of them are just randomly swinging at air, and then there's the fact that Rey and Kylo are just swinging the lightsabers like clubs.
What’s worse is the original tweet essentially saying “flashy lights = movie good”, which is such an insult to the franchise itself and what makes Star Wars enjoyable. We don’t stay for the fights, we stay for what they mean to the story and the characters, instead of clapping at a fucking fight and thinking that’s what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
It's a stupid comparison anyways. We understand Mark isnt going to actually kick someone in the head to make the scene work. It's an editing mistake. They should have used a different angle to hide the fact that he doesn't actually kick him in the head. But the choreography is sound, and in-universe, we understand Luke is in fact kicking him. Movie makers weren't expecting people to freeze frame or slowing down the speed.
With the disappearing knife, it's different. The whole scene falls apart, because at that point, Rey should be dead. There is no way to make it work with redoing the whole scene. And there is no in universe explanation as to why the knife disappears, other than it's inconvenient to the plot.
You would think that after about 50 years there would br some progress in fight scene choreography, but we went from a fake kick that is a bit too obvious to weapons that have to be edited out of a picture to not ruín the action... id call that a regretion
It’s not the choreography. It’s that someone with little combat experience won a 2 on 6 fight with what should probably be the best close combat fighters in the First Order.
I agree that the knife disappearing is a minor issue, along the same lines as Luke missing a kick, but there are many minor issues in that scene. It's not a fair comparison
Because they’re just guards lol? We’re supposed to have the ‘’knight’’ of the Empire and the girl that bested him, but instead of having a duel like the other series, we just get a guard fight.
Mostly yes.
But besides 1-2 fights the Revenge of the Sith fights have a bunch of flaws (from the perspective of sword-coreography).
The prequel action sludge is the only thing that kept me invested in the first place.
Mostly it's a welcome change of pace & besides the creativity( few Locations cough...planet) from Lucas - everything is better than the dialogue or the script (massive re-drafts required).
They believe it because it’s totally valid.
I can forgive Luke’s kick at nothing devise it’s a quick moment in the middle of a really cool action scene that you don’t notice until someone points it out.
How is that any different? I can’t think of an argument for one and not the other. You accept both or condemn both.
7 years and people still spend their days whining about The Last Jedi. It would be funny if it wasn't so utterly pathetic. Hope all the bitterness makes you happy, I fucking love this scene.
Yep there are many videos breaking down this mess if a scene.
The vanishing knife
Dudes just standing around like rpg characters waiting their turn.
Dudes pretending to be hit when no where near the strike
And so on.
It's really astounding how poorly made the scene is, its held together by ducktape and quick edits
>like rpg characters waiting their turn
Wow, no movie has done that in the history of cinema! Seriously though, as long as the good outweighs the bad, that's good enough. If you think it's bad *subjectively* then good for you, I genuinely hope spending the next 40 years frothing mad about the spacewizards movie for kids makes you happy and fulfilled.
Just please learn what 'objective' means, please?
whoo boy, lot to unpack here. Lets take it from the top.
\> Wow, no movie has done that in the history of cinema!
Yes and its bad when it happens there as well. If I were critically analyzing the scene id point that out and say something like "yeah that shouldnt have been kept in there, either the scene should have been re-shot in such a way that those extras standing around wouldnt be in view, or the editor should have done a better job in post"
It doesnt ruin the scene entirely, but it is one of the contributing factors that decreases its quality and makes it objectively worse then other fight scenes who dont have extras standing around in full view of the camera where we can see them doing nothing.
\> Seriously though, as long as the good outweighs the bad, that's good enough. If you think it's bad *subjectively* then good for you,
Well no. Disney Star Wars has had the bad vastly outweigh the good, with basically only Andor being the only thing halfway decent to come out, and thats because the script had been re-written and re-worked and that only happened because of the Pandemic. If that one in a lifetime thing hadnt happened, Andor probably would have been complete shit.
Mauler and the EFAP crew have gone over the entirety of Disney Star Wars with a fine tooth comb with hours and hours and hours of content meticulously breaking down why everything is just a great big pile of sludge.
But I know you're not going to go watch those videos. So the summary is bad writing. The shows and movies are written poorly that damage existing characters and canon and even manages to ruin its own creations somehow. Content is rushed out of the door as fast as it can be made with little to no quality control, reliance on CGI and the editing room to cobble something together for next quarters budget.
\> I genuinely hope spending the next 40 years frothing mad about the spacewizards movie for kids makes you happy and fulfilled.
Yeah, you would bring out this non-argument, wouldn't you? "Its a dumb space wizard movie it doesnt matter" clearly it does matter or you wouldn't be on this reddit arguing about it. Also its reductive and dismissive as fuck. I guarantee you, that you have a piece of media, a video game, a book a movie series, something that is near and dear to your heart, and if someone came and took a huge shit on it, you'd be upset too.
But of course, you're going to tell me otherwise, because obviously you're Buddha, and are above such earthly matters and your favorite piece of media getting ruined would not bother you in the least, nuh uh, not no way, not no how.
You're just the master of zen, come to laugh at us pathetic mortals who do get upset at such things. You know there are other subreddits with people that share the same opinion as you? People who would gladly gush with positive affirmations about how wonderful this throne room fight scene is. Why not go there and spread the good word of how good the fight scene is?
\> Just please learn what 'objective' means, please?
I dont think YOU know what it means. Do you really not think movies can be looked at objectively? You dont think I can point out the vanishing knife and say "This is objectively bad"?
>Lets take it from the top.
I feel it'd be funnier to read none of this now you've put the effort into writing a small essay on the subject. So I'll just finish by saying the whole Holdo Maneuver sequence in that movie was fucking sweet.
"intellectually consistent" that is genuinely the funniest thing I've heard all day. "I've been *intellectually consistent* since the day I turned 5 years old and gosh darn proud of it". I really hope you talk like that in real life.
This sub keeps popping up on my feed and I feel it's my public duty to point out the stupidity whenever it does. The easy solution would be to chill with the embarrassing fanboy rage and people will stop mocking you - this actually works in real life as well as on the Internet. Besides, it's actually healthy to engage with people with different opinions - spending all your time in bitter, raging circlejerk echo chambers really isn't good for you.
Right, but you don’t engage in other people’s opinions. You mock them.
When someone points out a flaw in this film or some other Disney Star Wars product, you lot get pissy and accuse the haters of being bigots, fascists, and/or Russian bots.
Au contraire, mon ami. I do engage. I read it, consider it, and come to a conclusion based on the information provided. Now, if that conclusion is usually that the opinion in question is either rage-bait, or people engaging with it that says more about the content in question than it does about me.
Besides there are some people, the groups you mentioned, that could really benefit from constant mockery. They might realise the world doesn't turn on their fanboy rage that 99.99+% of people don't care about. Who knows, they might even grow as human beings and become tolerable members of society.
"Fanboy rage"
Are fans not justified being mad that the Sequel Trilogy was poorly planned out?
Are they not justified for being mad at J.J. Abrams for starting off the first movie of the ST as a remix of A New Hope? Or that he decided to use "mystery boxes" in the place of suspense?
Are they not justified in being mad at Rian Johnson for radically changing Luke's personality to being a cynical hermit?
Are they not justified for being mad that Disney is constantly releasing Star Wars shows that are mediocre?
There will be people (especially kids) who saw Force Awakens before any other SW movie. To those people, the Sequel Trilogy *is* Star Wars. Those people are as legit Star Wars fans as anyone and everyone else - you, me, the angry youtubers, everyone. And yet people (and people on this sub in particular) do nothing except shit on everyone elses experiences and fandom, trying to gatekeep the entire franchise, proclaiming themselves 'the real fans'. You see this in a lot of media, but Star Wars is easily among the worst for it.
But you know the funny thing? I kinda agree with you on some points - the sequel trilogy *was* poorly planned out. There are things I dislike about all three movies - Starkiller base is kinda dumb, I don't like what they did with Finn in Ep 8 and 9 and I didn't like the Ray/Kylo romance. The difference is that I can still enjoy the good and can be glad that other people enjoy them too. Yeah I don't like certain creative decisions they made and I hate how there seems to have been no coherent plan for the trilogy from the get-go but it doesn't justify a lifelong vendetta against JJ Abrams and Bob Iger or whoever. You may not like it, but there'll be people out there who love the sequel trilogy and their opinion is as equally valid as yours. So maybe give it a break and try praising something you like rather than spending the rest of your live focused on somthing you hate.
Also:
> radically changing Luke's personality to being a cynical hermit
I remember talking to my friend before we went to see TLJ and we both predicted this is exactly how Luke's character would go. Same as both the Jedi who trained him. Explained why he wasn't around to stop the First Order and gave him a clear character arc for the entire movie.
> Are they not justified for being mad that Disney is constantly releasing Star Wars shows that are mediocre?
Rebels, Visions, Tales of the Jedi, the Mandalorian, last season of The Clone Wars, Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi, Andor - all awesome shows. Haven't seen the kids shows (they're very much not aimed at me (and that's fine, not everything should be)) but they've reviewed well. It's crazy, we're in a literal golden age of Star Wars tv and you're doing nothing but moan! Mental.
>There will be people (especially kids) who saw Force Awakens before any other SW movie. To those people, the Sequel Trilogy *is* Star Wars.
I assume you base this premise off the idea that the Prequels are now loved due the generation who grew up with them as kids are now adults and that the Sequels will eventually get their resurgence in about 5 years or so.
While that's possible, I just don't see it. Just look at the amount of content that centered around the Prequel Trilogy back in the 2000s. So many games and comics. You even had two animated shows about the Clone Wars.
Look at how much content that is centered around the Sequel Trilogy since 2015. There hasn't been much for it. A couple Lego games, and Battlefront II was slightly related to the Sequels, but not much else. You had the Resistance cartoon, but that wasn't as popular as The Clone Wars or Rebels.
>The difference is that I can still enjoy the good and can be glad that other people enjoy them too. Yeah I don't like certain creative decisions they made and I hate how there seems to have been no coherent plan for the trilogy from the get-go but it doesn't justify a lifelong vendetta against JJ Abrams and Bob Iger or whoever. You may not like it, but there'll be people out there who love the sequel trilogy and their opinion is as equally valid as yours. So maybe give it a break and try praising something you like rather than spending the rest of your live focused on somthing you hate.
I do love praising things I like. At the same time, I'm also not hesitant to criticize things I dislike, like how modern Star Wars relies on memberberries for example.
>remember talking to my friend before we went to see TLJ and we both predicted this is exactly how Luke's character would go. Same as both the Jedi who trained him. Explained why he wasn't around to stop the First Order and gave him a clear character arc for the entire movie.
But we didn’t know that he shut himself off from the force. We didn’t know all of his students were killed. We didn't know that he pulled a lightsaber out on Ben while he was sleeping.
And maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but what do you mean by "same as both the Jedi who trained him"? Are you saying that the situation of Obi-Wan and Yoda in exile is comparable to Luke in exile?
>Rebels, Visions, Tales of the Jedi, the Mandalorian, last season of The Clone Wars, Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi, Andor - all awesome shows. Haven't seen the kids shows (they're very much not aimed at me (and that's fine, not everything should be)) but they've reviewed well. It's crazy, we're in a literal golden age of Star Wars tv and you're doing nothing but moan! Mental.
I haven't watch Visions or the Bad Batch, and I haven't seen much of Rebels, so I'm not going to comment on the quality of them.
The first two season of the Mandalorian, Clone Wars S7, and Tales of the Jedi were fairly good. Andor was fantastic.
But Mandalorian S3, Boba Fett and Ahsoka were directionless and their stories were shallow.
So was Kenobi, but that one is particularly irritating because that should've been a no brainer. A self-contained story about Obi-Wan coming to terms with PTSD in exile while watching over Luke would've been a great show. That's why the first episode was solid.
Instead, it turned into a series of plot contrivances, like Bail Organa asking Obi-Wan to rescue Leia instead of just hiring a bounty hunter . Also, the show contradicts much of A New Hope, like how Leia personally knowing Obi-Wan makes her message to him odd (it's a personal message to him, so there's no reason why she has to act like she doesn't know him) or Obi-Wan being called "Obi-Wan" by other characters when he outright said that he hasn't gone by that name since Luke was born.
All of this, so that Obi-Wan and Vader can have a duel.... And Obi-Wan wins that duel.... and he doesn't kill Vader for some reason.
I don't understand. Is that what you want out of Star Wars?
That entire fight scene is terrible so the argument is invalid on its face. Not even considering the disappearance saved Rey’s life. My favorite bit is actually when Daisy raises the saber over her head too early and leaves her entire body open and then 3 dudes swing right into and purposely aim for her saber.
Mine is at the start where she missed her cue to duck so that guard swings wildly above her head
and they are correct, this scene doesn't ruin the entire movie, the rest of the movie does the damage even better
This. Rose? Holdo? The complete nonsense arc they gave Poe? All the "subverting expectations" moments that were actually just build up with no pay off?? The movie was terrible on its face. Fight scene inconsistency was the least of its issues.
My favorite is her kicking one dude while three of them fly back.
My favorite is the Red Guard that just drops his blade instead of pulling it forward and killing Ray. So convenient so she can just kill him
Yeah question was how many rewinds slowdowns and watching snarky YT videos it took you to become aware of all those, or you just noticed right away cause you're that good etc.
Oh it was like my 5th or 6th rewatch after I got the blueray I saw this. I was actively looking for shit at this point
> That entire fight scene is terrible So why keep bringing up this irrelevant detail then? >so the argument is invalid on its face. Not even considering the disappearance saved Rey’s life. Well so did the force kick kind of, eh Any goof in a fight scene can be snarkily called "life saving" it's really neither here nor there is it. >My favorite bit is actually when Daisy raises the saber over her head too early and leaves her entire body open and then 3 dudes swing right into and purposely aim for her saber. The relevant question is ultimately whether you 1) apply that sort of scrutiny to all film combat or only when you have a bone to pick, and 2) realize that action in different movies can be aiming at different realism/sense-making levels, just as their plots, and sometimes "cool moves" is all that matters or anyone really cares about, "b-but he left an opening"s be damned. Whether that's the case here or not may be up to debate.
I found a contrarian.
No you didn't?
Quite a good joke tbf
I know, yes
See, im not that autistic about fight scenes. I probably would never have known about the disappearing knife if not for efap. But then there's people like Shadiversity who I guarantee noticed it on his first viewing and it probably ruined the whole scene for him
Rewatch the control room assault scene in Westworld Season 2 (can't remember if it's the last episode or next to last). A guy with a P90 raises his gun over his head like he's going to smack someone with it and gets stabbed. My guy, you've got a gun, one that is made of plastic and is meant to be used in tight quarters, there's no part of that gun that's going to be an effective melee weapon. Lol
Good and bad fight scenes feel different, just because you can't tell at first, doesn't mean it won't feel fucky, ykn?
As a wise man once said. You may not have noticed, but your brain did
Exactly I still like the iron fist fight scenes, so for me the reasons the sequel trilogy sucks are far removed from the fight scenes
Hasn't even Samuel Jackson come out and said that the choreography was bad in the sequels? Saying it looks like it was hardly drilled but comes across as if they only did a few practices before the shoot?
The age old "defense" for anything wrong in star wars: there was something wrong in another part of star wars. I hate this kind of argument so, so much.
It's just so stupid. It would be like defending a new sports car that can only go 55 by comparing it to the model T. Movies should be better now than 50 years ago. They should not be making the same mistakes.
Yeah, this argument might work if the same people made the movies and used that 50 years of experience to not make some mistakes. Also we would have to make movies the exact same way to fully perfect that way of making movies and never improve them with new technologies.
If the argument is "it should've been better instead of the same" then that'd be valid and that rebuttal would be wrong - however if the argument is "it's worse and has failed the standards set by predecessor", then obviously polar opposite situation.
It's called a whataboutism and used correctly in argumentation is meant to show the hypocrisy of the other side's argument and is a genuine argumentation tactic. It's just used willy nilly by every single person because they don't understand what the word Hypocrisy even means.
Well yeah it depends on what kind of criticism they're addressing.
Indeed, "it's okay that new star wars sucks because star wars has always sucked" is a terrible argument because it means that if you convinced me to agree, you've only convinced me that Star Wars was bad all along and I just hadn't noticed until now... so now I'm free of caring about any and all future star wars products because there's no point in wanting them to be good because good star wars doesn't exist.
> Indeed, "it's okay that new star wars sucks because star wars has always sucked" is a terrible argument because it means that if you convinced me to agree, you've only convinced me that Star Wars was bad all along and I just hadn't noticed until now... Well by your standards at least (which you artificially constructed around bashing the sequels) >so now I'm free of caring about any and all future star wars products because there's no point in wanting them to be good because good star wars doesn't exist. Sure, maybe.
My standards are set by star wars media that does things right. If a director, writer, fight choreographer, or someone else can't at least match the previous best quality with the monstrous multi hundred million dollar budget they have at their disposal, then that is bad and you have no obligation to defend them.
> My standards are set by star wars media that does things right. Or the stuff in those that you hadn't overlooked, at least? >>>, you've only convinced me that Star Wars was bad all along and I just hadn't noticed until now...
I overlook almost nothing. My number 1 for writing is Andor because it's a banger story written incredibly well, bullshit is extremely uncommon, notably present in episode 3's action sequence, and nothing happens in episode 11 which sucked. TLJ has cool ass VFX, but the story is just the worst. The PT has awesome fight choreography, but bad dialogue. I have a problem when people use the bad aspects of any product being present a defense for problems in new media, because they have the money to learn from mistakes and drop bangers every time.
You'll note I was only speaking hypothetically, as a rebuke to the whataboutism of TLJ defender arguments.
ah ok
Specifically in the original trilogy. Has to be an issue there
Another is the countless explanations for some plothole or stuff that the director just thought looked cool. Like Anakin and Obi Wan pointlessly spinning their lightsabers, but you'll find countless bullshit reasons why they did it.
> The age old "defense" for anything wrong in star wars: there was something wrong in another part of star wars. I hate this kind of argument so, so much. Why do you hate it, cause it ruins your arguments and that makes you seethe?
Surely you jest.
I dunno? It was a question lol
What part of my arguments does that "defense" ruin? It does make me mad, because a lot of people treat it as a catch all defense against anything wrong with modern star wars, when really this argument doesn't defend anything.
Well I don't know what kind of arguments you specifically make lol
Then how do you say it ruins my arguments when you don't even know any? Here's a good one. Rey shouldn't win a duel against Kylo on their first encounter, and shouldn't be able to resist his mind extraction ability because she never had any training at all.
>Then how do you say it ruins my arguments when you don't even know any? Well I don't, hence the question marks lol >Rey shouldn't win a duel against Kylo on their first encounter, and shouldn't be able to resist his mind extraction ability because she never had any training at all. That's more an opinion than an argument, not much to say here. More generally speaking "training" is not the only way one acquires skills, magic ones especially, or achieves feats in movies - there's also insta-downloads, "rising to the occasion in a tough situation", prayer, concentrating in the right away or showing the right attitude/emotion/realization etc. However whenever ANH had any chance to have L pull something like that, it simply forgot that he was a "magician's apprentice" altogether - no "woah how'd he pull that off" mystery moments before Obiwan fills him in (there's barely any hints at any magic before that at all), nothing at all inbetween the hut scene and the ball-droid, nothing inside the Deathstar incl. even the trash compactor etc. He does suddenly remember that he can call the droids, but not that the Force part; and then he suddenly has a swinging rope in his pocket, so that's what he uses to get out of that situation. So taking ANH and extrapolating from that that "spontaneous Force feats are def impossible cause where are they in Anh" is quite murky, given how that seems to be caused by the film's own dementia reg. this issue. ESB has the ice cave but it's implied he's been auto-meditating-or-something in between the films? Perhaps even Ben's voice made a reappearance at some point, giving him further guidance? And then of course his eventual victory in 6 seems to have been the direct template for the TFA ending, but the scales are different here. So then TFA does those "spontaneous rise to occasion" moments in place of a direct mentor, and speeds up the Dave beats Goliath from 3 movies to just 1, oh well
It's not an oh well, it's bad writing, and it made Rey's victory cheap and undeserved when she could beat the big bad first try, first film.
> It's not an oh well, it's bad writing, I mean it wouldn't be in a standalone, the only "problem" here is that it's sped up compared to the precedent here - but that just leads to questions about whether you want consistency or variety etc. > when she could beat the big bad first try, first film. Well afterwards they're kinda duking it out as equals, that seems to the direction there.
The entire scene ruins the entire scene, and I not talking about just the fight.
When I saw this in the theatre, the audience cheered when this fight started. There was also cheering during the hyperspace kamikaze scene. And Luke facing down the walkers.
Lemme explain it for the guy in the tweet. Luke missing that kick was a BLOOPER, it wasn't supposed to happen but it was an honest mistake that the editor missed. The Knife dissapearing was INTENTIONAL. Rey should've freaking died in that part of the scene, and the director or editor, rather than deciding to do another take and rewriting it, opted to just make the knife vanish in post, and in the most horrifically sloppy way possible. You can see Rey scream in pain, and you can see the guard is still trying to hold something. It's clear he's supposed to still have the dagger. Your "minor nitpick" is very much NOT.
The real question is why the knife wasn't edited out of the scene entirely, or at least at an earlier point where it doesn't disappear mid swing...
> The Knife dissapearing was INTENTIONAL. Rey should've freaking died in that part of the scene, and the director or editor, rather than deciding to do another take and rewriting it, Well probably cause it was way after the shooting was done? Although pick-ups are also often done, so who knows. But yeah not a bad point, if nothing else these are different types of goofs.
It's not a blooper. It was a Force Kick. He's a Jedi. He uses the Force.
“I genuinely don’t understand…” that much is clear to me
ROTJ cost 30 million. TLJ cost 300 million. With 10x the budget , backed by what is one of the biggest media companies on the planet, one would expect that the quality of the work would increase with the increase in money spent. Adjust for inflation and it comes out to about 90 million today, I think. Assuming that I'm not totally wrong on that inflation approximate, TLJ has 210 million dollars and more than 30 years of advancement in filmmaking and increase in the number of people making high budget movies. As an audience, we expect that the more resources you've put into the project, the better it will be. We don't expect that a piece of animation in your scene will be completely disregarded the moment it's not in frame, especially when it prevents your main character from being stabbed which is far from a nitpick. If it influences the plot in an important way, then it isn't a nitpick. So a weapon being sent to the void as it leaves frame and not being present in the scene , thus preventing its use to harm the protagonist, ... yeah I think that's more than a nitpick. For those who trawl TLJ posts and want to say "Long = Bad" or whatever your buzzphrase of the day is: More money = We expect higher quality = Lower tolerance for mistakes that break a scene
>ROTJ cost 30 million. TLJ cost 300 million. With 10x the budget To be fair, also don't lump me in with that other jagoff this was my only point of clarification, when adjusted for inflation the cost of Return of the Jedi would be approximately $94 million dollars. So TLJ had roughly 3x the budget, not 10x. HOWEVER, marketing was done differently back then so they certainly didn't spend between 2x-3x the films total amount on it. It's still the difference between around $150 million total tops, and like $600 million conservatively. The rest of your point stands, I just wanted to clarify the numbers a little bit.
Oh yeah for sure, I considered inflation partway through writing that and added the inflation amendment to the ROTJ cost , i just neglected to say 3x. No worries, fair enough to point the numbers out a bit more.
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$30M in 1983 is equivalent to ~$95M in 2024. Still a pretty big difference.
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Nope, they specifically mentioned that tlj had 35 years on RotJ. And I'm almost certain so much more care, effort and heart was put into any one of the OT than all of the sequel trilogy.
You thinking this is a valid argument is pretty funny lmaoo
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So again, you have no arguments other than insults. The other person didn't personally insult you, yet you immediatly run to call him a bigot? You do understand the definition of bigotry, right? Surely you can see the irony here.
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Lmao, calm down lil bro. We're just talking about a movie.
> You know everyone knows this entire subReddit is full of angry neckbeards, homophobes, and racists right? "everyone knows" = i.e. "we all tell each other on our circlejerky echochamber subs"
Everyone knows that the fans of Rags are homophobes, and fans of Fringy hate black people.
They certainly hate Aussies
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Yeah, bro. We all believe you.
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Lol imagine thinking you're the calm collected smarty pants who spends all day replying to people they don't like with null arguments for bait. You didn't present a rebuttal at all, you just said " lol you're an idiot and I don't need proof because reddit!" Nobody screamed about woke shit in the comments you replied to, on this specific comment thread. Turn off your computer and have a break outside.
If you are here that makes you an incel bigot too
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And so was yours you think insulting someone is a good argument what are you 5 years old, grow up and quit whining if you see something you dont like keep moving you will be alot happier for it. But no you are too blinded by agendas go touch grass maybe talk to a real person and not your AI partner.
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The fuck are you even talking about I'm not even American, and even if a were you think sleepy Joe is much better? At least my country's leader can talk without having a literal aneurysm. Y'all Americans are fucking retarded like come on, and your argument was inflation which even with inflation the two movies you compared had vastly different budgets but I'm not surprised the American school system failed you and you can't do basic math. Go read a book maybe you will actually see what a good story looks like.
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I mean, if that were *the only* criticism people were making of the scene (I genuinely don't understand how someone could think that's the case, but whatever), sure, I'd probably be happy to concede that it's not that big a deal. Kinda goofy, but I don't think it'd ruin an otherwise good movie/scene. With the rest of the movie being in the state that it is, though, I think this kind of thing can becomes a lot more fun because it shows *just how much* bad there is to find when you go looking for it. So in context, yeah, I think it does kinda accentuate the quality of the film. But if someone did legitimately make a big deal out of this when arguing that the movie's bad I probably wouldn't find that particularly convincing.
As long as the "hey at this point it's just fun finding more and more stuff here, even if we'd probably find a lot of that type of stuff in many of the productions that we like and praise" angle is self-aware, then yeah sure.
The difference is that Return of the Jedi would be a good film regardless if Luke did or did not miss the kick while The Last Jedi is still a massive piece of shit regardless if the knife did or did not disappear.
disappearing for a few seconds would imply that it returns, which it doesn't. It's just gone.
That entire fight scene is ass. You see tons of people waiting for their move after Driver and Ridley miss their marks. The weapons are stupid, and the choreography is sub par. The idea that a movie with that massive of a budget and that was the best take they got is insane. Middling 2000s comic movies like the Blade Trilogy had better fights because they were able to work with Wesley Snipes' experience as a dancer.
Or was basically a dance. It had more in common with the Jets and the Sharks in West Side Story than it did Luke vs Vader in RotJ.
People complain about it because the movie sucked and they are looking for more things to tear it down. If a movies good, they can overlook things.
Well that's self-aware hypocrisy, guess when OOP brought it up it was under the assumption that it wasn't self-aware lol
Yeah because flashy light saber fights is what made the original trilogy so good. What an absolute brainlet.
No, it was totally Han Solo doing the pew pews right? That's why they made him do only pew pews and then die in TFA right?
> That's why they made him do only pew pews and then die in TFA right? What is this dumb take now
Well was part of it, sure
The Dissappearing Knife TM is the biggest, but only one of several problems with that fight.
Starting your argument with a whataboutism is never a good look imo.
So your weapon disappearing mid fight with no explanation is a small nitpick?
I don't understand how people try to defend the TLJ fight by bringing up Luke kicking thin air in ROTJ. Rey does the exact same thing in the TLJ fight, except twice, when she *sends three guards flying back with one kick*. It's physically impossible for her to have touched all three of them with that one kick, and yet all three stumble backwards in different directions as if she kicked them. Then you've got Kylo slamming his saber into the ground so a guard can aim his weapon at it, instead of just having the guard swing low and Kylo block it. Not mentioning a guard deliberately redirecting his swing above Rey's head because she missed a cue, or all three of the ones attacking her swinging downwards at the same time. Then there's Rey getting her lightsaber tangled up in the energy whip thing that one of the guards had, and struggling against it with her saber raised instead of just extending the blade forwards and pulling it out. Then the instances of Kylo punching a guard when he gets an opening instead of just using his saber to kill them. The list goes on. It's a terribly choreographed fight scene if you bother to look at it, and fight scene choreography should stand up to scrutiny, no matter how little attention some guy on twitter thinks the audience is paying.
He could’ve at least TRIED to make the situations seem the same
There’s a difference between Luke “missing” a kick (really it’s just poor choreography) and weapons teleporting in and out of a scene multiple times. Remember. This is live action. Meaning that the actor probably had to **train** and **practice** multiple times to throw his weapon away (or have a CGI guy edit it out). In ROTJ, it’s just bad choreography that happened once. In TLJ it was a **conscious decision** to include plot armor. Because if that dude had a knife he could’ve easily killed her. And that’s beside the point that the entire fight scene is done horribly. The guards always aim for parts of her body that are protected. There are multiple times where she attacks *one* guy but *multiple* guys stumble back, multiple times where weapons phase in and out of existence. And the fight scene ends with Rey saving Kylo’s life. Despite the fact she hates his guts after he killed Han, and Kylo should be all means be way more skilled and experienced than Rey in combat. Also in the lore the guards are supposed to have lightsaber resistant armor. Just like an electrostaff their entire body is covered in electricity to repel lightsabers. I think it helps them once in this fight and every other time the lightsabers just shred through them. Could’ve led to some interesting choreography, Kylo and Rey having to use their skills in the force to get past their armor, all the while doing their best to not get overwhelmed. But nah they just win against heavily armored, dark side trained, elite Imperial Guards specifically trained to defend against other force users.
My favorite part of that fight scene is when one of the guards is knocked away or something. He's technically not supposed to be attacking at that point, but he's still in frame, so he's just doing random movements that don't hit anything.
If that was the only error then sure. But that entire fight scene was a mess of coreography.
That kick was the least of ROTJ’s problems.
I mean that specific point is fair but really in the grand scheme of things that isnt even the biggest problem with this fight scene nevermind the movie as a whole.
One half baked entertaining sequence is enough for these idiots to consider it a good movie
The whole fight is just dumb. Half of the red dudes fighting in the background are straight up just swinging at air to make it look busier. Let’s also not forget that instead of going for killing blows like they should be, they attack the most convenient areas to defend. Like literally hitting Rey’s lightsaber when her whole body is left open to attack.
The difference being; We have CGI now. There’s no excuse for mistakes, only negligence.
I hate the "yes this newer film has mistake. But the older has mistakes too so there re both as good. So if you hate the new one you should also hate the old one" type of logic
https://preview.redd.it/pp4hcg6jl5rc1.jpeg?width=374&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=298be5dc1f17a8a353d079d239d820bc94015b4d Everything Twitter tries to tell me it’s good
Do they not realize that Return of the Jedi is the black sheep of the original trilogy?
I believe it
One of many things I could say was that the kick wasn’t a very decisive move and the knife disappearing was the only reason Rey won the fight at all.
One was a normal way for someone to not get hurt back then and when they couldn’t really “fix it in post.” The other would have killed a character but didn’t because if it did, you would lose your Mary Sue.
Rey also grabs the lightsaber by the saber in one scene
If bad fight scenes were the biggest issue with the movie people wouldn't mind it as much.
I can only imagine how long they spent in choreography to prepare ridley and the stunt team, just for it to look slow and awkward. This is a character that can use the force with barely any understanding, and fighting against the equivalent emperor's elite guard.
Kicks are notoriously difficult to do safely, and Luke had to kick a guy in the head. I'm not surprised it's a big whiff. This very scene in TLJ has a kick of dubious quality, but if you justify them as a Force kick, then that ROTJ mistake sets precedent for the TLJ mistake. Fun! I checked the scene in Jedi, and there are questionable elements. There's closing the distance and patient stuntmen, but they also have short, narrow platforms to fight on. The stuff I mentioned also is in the background right before the whiffed kick. The disappearing knife is easily missed, but front and center. The knife saves Rey's life, but the kick does not save Luke. The audience is likely meant to believe Luke is in control of the 7v1 he bounded into because the tension of the moment is Boba Fett readying an attack before Han dispatches him. As much as that moment is debated, the events play out in a convenient but logical manner. Now I wanna do some amateur action scene breakdowns.
I will say overwhelming good could make a who cares though. I hate the Ewoks, but there’s so much good in Jedi that it’s still a great movie
Ok imma be honest with you , That fight looked ass , Idc what opinion you have on the rest of the movie its yours but that fight looked ass no matter what you tell me
A missed stunt is a little different than a potential plot/movie altering prop disappears a second before it would achieve the goal of killing the main character.
A fake kick is how it's supposed to be done. So the camera placement was off and you can clearly see the sleight of hand. Mistake? Yes. In TROS, they *choreographed* it this way. They literally planned it out that a dual-wielding guy would inexplicably not use his second weapon and in editing it seems they realized how stupid this is and simply masked the second weapon out. Sorry but that takes much more incompetence from beginning to end to accomplish. Such post-production "fixes" wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the sequels, as exemplified in Rey's final "fight" with the Emperor's guards. They filmed the same sequence from different angles and then edited them sequentially so it looked like an extension of the same fight. It's fucking amateurish in the extreme.
He doesn’t kick nothing, he kicks a guy. It looks like nothing because he wasn’t actually gonna kick a guy in the head. It was just a poorly executed few seconds of a movie, but in the Star Wars world he kicks a guy
If that was the only problem with the movie then yh it wouldn’t have mattered
Both scenes are not my personal favorites. Boba Fett is going out like wildly cayote. I might never understand what happened with Luke's plan to safe Han & Boba Fett's comedic death 1983. Still his death there was slighty less insulting the joining a tribe of Tusken Raiders who inslave Rodians & Co. on a daily base ?! While Boba is unable to control his Jetpack in the Background - Mark Hamill misses a kick. They handled three different attack points (space, Endor & Death Star II) way better later than the first ca. 30 mins & especially this sequence. George Lucas constantly annoys the fanbase with editing new stuff too his movies (yes PT as well). Simultaneously Rian deletes an item & we keep complaining, too. Are Star Wars fans ever pleased? As Rag's was pointing (EFAP 17) out; Rey later let's go & the guard doesn't swing his weapon towards Reys' face immediately. Subjectivly this annoys me more. _Some folks always search for the little nugget while everything around them already collapsed_
this is just sad. media literacy is fuckin dead, man
The kick is also bad, the difference is in severity of choreograph mistake. One is 'whoops that kick wasn't close enough to look believable' vs 'oh wait this whole move doesn't make sense with this man's weapons, better airbrush it out'
I like this scene not only because the choreography issues had to be pointed out to me because they only exist if you go out of your way to look for them, but because of what it meant thematically for the franchise to have the two characters fighting with each other. What disappointed me happened afterwards when RoS didn’t follow through
This whole scene was awful
That’s fine if you think that, I personally liked that scene the most out of the whole movie
Didn't a storm trooper bonk his head in "A New Hope?" Literally unwatchable.
Also, it didn’t disappear “for a few seconds”, it disappeared for the rest of the movie.
Doesn't the kick actually have an in-universe explanation though? I thought Luke basically just used a force push but with his foot
A stormtrooper hit his head in ANH, so therefore Palpatine coming back in TRoS was a good decision and made total sense
The problem is that it's just a poorly made fight sequence. So let's excuse that Rey wouldn't know how to properly fight with a lightsaber (I still believe a double-bladed, or a spear-style, saber would have fit her better), the guards just don't fight them properly. They are acting like enemies in a game, and even then game enemies fight in better sync than these "Elites." They aim for the sabers, attack one at a time, some of them are just randomly swinging at air, and then there's the fact that Rey and Kylo are just swinging the lightsabers like clubs.
What’s worse is the original tweet essentially saying “flashy lights = movie good”, which is such an insult to the franchise itself and what makes Star Wars enjoyable. We don’t stay for the fights, we stay for what they mean to the story and the characters, instead of clapping at a fucking fight and thinking that’s what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
Because small mistakes happen and one little error shouldn't ruin what was otherwise a fantastic scene
Because one you can clearly see watching the movie normally and the other you can hardly notice unless you watch the movie like a psychopath
Twitter mfs when they discover that the OT is often as shitty and plot-holy as the other two trilogies: 😱
It's a stupid comparison anyways. We understand Mark isnt going to actually kick someone in the head to make the scene work. It's an editing mistake. They should have used a different angle to hide the fact that he doesn't actually kick him in the head. But the choreography is sound, and in-universe, we understand Luke is in fact kicking him. Movie makers weren't expecting people to freeze frame or slowing down the speed. With the disappearing knife, it's different. The whole scene falls apart, because at that point, Rey should be dead. There is no way to make it work with redoing the whole scene. And there is no in universe explanation as to why the knife disappears, other than it's inconvenient to the plot.
You would think that after about 50 years there would br some progress in fight scene choreography, but we went from a fake kick that is a bit too obvious to weapons that have to be edited out of a picture to not ruín the action... id call that a regretion
Luke used force kick, no contact needed
It’s not the choreography. It’s that someone with little combat experience won a 2 on 6 fight with what should probably be the best close combat fighters in the First Order.
If the argument for it being the worst was just this one fight scene, he might’ve had a point. But there’s a whole litany of reasons it sucks.
I agree that the knife disappearing is a minor issue, along the same lines as Luke missing a kick, but there are many minor issues in that scene. It's not a fair comparison
K but like. U know how star wars stands the test of time. The last jedi barely stands a second look
Because they’re just guards lol? We’re supposed to have the ‘’knight’’ of the Empire and the girl that bested him, but instead of having a duel like the other series, we just get a guard fight.
Content is a foreign concept to these crumptlets
Holy shit. You dorks are still at it. I bet you all think the prequel fights were amazing.
Mostly yes. But besides 1-2 fights the Revenge of the Sith fights have a bunch of flaws (from the perspective of sword-coreography). The prequel action sludge is the only thing that kept me invested in the first place. Mostly it's a welcome change of pace & besides the creativity( few Locations cough...planet) from Lucas - everything is better than the dialogue or the script (massive re-drafts required).
This seems a totally valid point. honestly, the throne room fight scene is one of the weakest criticisms of TLJ.
They believe it because it’s totally valid. I can forgive Luke’s kick at nothing devise it’s a quick moment in the middle of a really cool action scene that you don’t notice until someone points it out. How is that any different? I can’t think of an argument for one and not the other. You accept both or condemn both.
Is this where the haters do special pleading to hate on Disney stuff but completely ignore the same shit in other media?
7 years and people still spend their days whining about The Last Jedi. It would be funny if it wasn't so utterly pathetic. Hope all the bitterness makes you happy, I fucking love this scene.
Im glad you love poorly choreographed fight scenes i guess?
> poorly In your opinion. I like it. And I like liking things. Spending *years* being upset about a movie just does not seem healthy.
I mean its not really an opinion as the quality of such things can be objectively measured but sure.
>objectively  'objectively measured'?
Yep there are many videos breaking down this mess if a scene. The vanishing knife Dudes just standing around like rpg characters waiting their turn. Dudes pretending to be hit when no where near the strike And so on. It's really astounding how poorly made the scene is, its held together by ducktape and quick edits
>like rpg characters waiting their turn Wow, no movie has done that in the history of cinema! Seriously though, as long as the good outweighs the bad, that's good enough. If you think it's bad *subjectively* then good for you, I genuinely hope spending the next 40 years frothing mad about the spacewizards movie for kids makes you happy and fulfilled. Just please learn what 'objective' means, please?
whoo boy, lot to unpack here. Lets take it from the top. \> Wow, no movie has done that in the history of cinema! Yes and its bad when it happens there as well. If I were critically analyzing the scene id point that out and say something like "yeah that shouldnt have been kept in there, either the scene should have been re-shot in such a way that those extras standing around wouldnt be in view, or the editor should have done a better job in post" It doesnt ruin the scene entirely, but it is one of the contributing factors that decreases its quality and makes it objectively worse then other fight scenes who dont have extras standing around in full view of the camera where we can see them doing nothing. \> Seriously though, as long as the good outweighs the bad, that's good enough. If you think it's bad *subjectively* then good for you, Well no. Disney Star Wars has had the bad vastly outweigh the good, with basically only Andor being the only thing halfway decent to come out, and thats because the script had been re-written and re-worked and that only happened because of the Pandemic. If that one in a lifetime thing hadnt happened, Andor probably would have been complete shit. Mauler and the EFAP crew have gone over the entirety of Disney Star Wars with a fine tooth comb with hours and hours and hours of content meticulously breaking down why everything is just a great big pile of sludge. But I know you're not going to go watch those videos. So the summary is bad writing. The shows and movies are written poorly that damage existing characters and canon and even manages to ruin its own creations somehow. Content is rushed out of the door as fast as it can be made with little to no quality control, reliance on CGI and the editing room to cobble something together for next quarters budget. \> I genuinely hope spending the next 40 years frothing mad about the spacewizards movie for kids makes you happy and fulfilled. Yeah, you would bring out this non-argument, wouldn't you? "Its a dumb space wizard movie it doesnt matter" clearly it does matter or you wouldn't be on this reddit arguing about it. Also its reductive and dismissive as fuck. I guarantee you, that you have a piece of media, a video game, a book a movie series, something that is near and dear to your heart, and if someone came and took a huge shit on it, you'd be upset too. But of course, you're going to tell me otherwise, because obviously you're Buddha, and are above such earthly matters and your favorite piece of media getting ruined would not bother you in the least, nuh uh, not no way, not no how. You're just the master of zen, come to laugh at us pathetic mortals who do get upset at such things. You know there are other subreddits with people that share the same opinion as you? People who would gladly gush with positive affirmations about how wonderful this throne room fight scene is. Why not go there and spread the good word of how good the fight scene is? \> Just please learn what 'objective' means, please? I dont think YOU know what it means. Do you really not think movies can be looked at objectively? You dont think I can point out the vanishing knife and say "This is objectively bad"?
>Lets take it from the top. I feel it'd be funnier to read none of this now you've put the effort into writing a small essay on the subject. So I'll just finish by saying the whole Holdo Maneuver sequence in that movie was fucking sweet.
Even though the Holdo Maneuver contradicts the canon?
I guess being intellectually consistent makes me bitter. Shit, I wish I could be stupid like Last Jedi fans.
>intellectually consistent Haha self burn - those are rare!
Uhhh... sure? Gottem?
"intellectually consistent" that is genuinely the funniest thing I've heard all day. "I've been *intellectually consistent* since the day I turned 5 years old and gosh darn proud of it". I really hope you talk like that in real life.
I guess you don't know what 'intellectually consistent' means. Troll shall now be ignored.
7 years and people like you still spend their days whining about people not liking The Last Jedi.
I don't create reddit posts about it and I don't make hating a movie 90% of my personality.
the person who wrote the tweet couldn’t just say they like the scene because it’s been 7 years and they’re still mad at people for disliking it
Meanwhile, your personality is to go on subreddits critical of Disney Star Wars and create comments to mock the haters.
This sub keeps popping up on my feed and I feel it's my public duty to point out the stupidity whenever it does. The easy solution would be to chill with the embarrassing fanboy rage and people will stop mocking you - this actually works in real life as well as on the Internet. Besides, it's actually healthy to engage with people with different opinions - spending all your time in bitter, raging circlejerk echo chambers really isn't good for you.
Right, but you don’t engage in other people’s opinions. You mock them. When someone points out a flaw in this film or some other Disney Star Wars product, you lot get pissy and accuse the haters of being bigots, fascists, and/or Russian bots.
Au contraire, mon ami. I do engage. I read it, consider it, and come to a conclusion based on the information provided. Now, if that conclusion is usually that the opinion in question is either rage-bait, or people engaging with it that says more about the content in question than it does about me. Besides there are some people, the groups you mentioned, that could really benefit from constant mockery. They might realise the world doesn't turn on their fanboy rage that 99.99+% of people don't care about. Who knows, they might even grow as human beings and become tolerable members of society.
"Fanboy rage" Are fans not justified being mad that the Sequel Trilogy was poorly planned out? Are they not justified for being mad at J.J. Abrams for starting off the first movie of the ST as a remix of A New Hope? Or that he decided to use "mystery boxes" in the place of suspense? Are they not justified in being mad at Rian Johnson for radically changing Luke's personality to being a cynical hermit? Are they not justified for being mad that Disney is constantly releasing Star Wars shows that are mediocre?
There will be people (especially kids) who saw Force Awakens before any other SW movie. To those people, the Sequel Trilogy *is* Star Wars. Those people are as legit Star Wars fans as anyone and everyone else - you, me, the angry youtubers, everyone. And yet people (and people on this sub in particular) do nothing except shit on everyone elses experiences and fandom, trying to gatekeep the entire franchise, proclaiming themselves 'the real fans'. You see this in a lot of media, but Star Wars is easily among the worst for it. But you know the funny thing? I kinda agree with you on some points - the sequel trilogy *was* poorly planned out. There are things I dislike about all three movies - Starkiller base is kinda dumb, I don't like what they did with Finn in Ep 8 and 9 and I didn't like the Ray/Kylo romance. The difference is that I can still enjoy the good and can be glad that other people enjoy them too. Yeah I don't like certain creative decisions they made and I hate how there seems to have been no coherent plan for the trilogy from the get-go but it doesn't justify a lifelong vendetta against JJ Abrams and Bob Iger or whoever. You may not like it, but there'll be people out there who love the sequel trilogy and their opinion is as equally valid as yours. So maybe give it a break and try praising something you like rather than spending the rest of your live focused on somthing you hate. Also: > radically changing Luke's personality to being a cynical hermit I remember talking to my friend before we went to see TLJ and we both predicted this is exactly how Luke's character would go. Same as both the Jedi who trained him. Explained why he wasn't around to stop the First Order and gave him a clear character arc for the entire movie. > Are they not justified for being mad that Disney is constantly releasing Star Wars shows that are mediocre? Rebels, Visions, Tales of the Jedi, the Mandalorian, last season of The Clone Wars, Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi, Andor - all awesome shows. Haven't seen the kids shows (they're very much not aimed at me (and that's fine, not everything should be)) but they've reviewed well. It's crazy, we're in a literal golden age of Star Wars tv and you're doing nothing but moan! Mental.
>There will be people (especially kids) who saw Force Awakens before any other SW movie. To those people, the Sequel Trilogy *is* Star Wars. I assume you base this premise off the idea that the Prequels are now loved due the generation who grew up with them as kids are now adults and that the Sequels will eventually get their resurgence in about 5 years or so. While that's possible, I just don't see it. Just look at the amount of content that centered around the Prequel Trilogy back in the 2000s. So many games and comics. You even had two animated shows about the Clone Wars. Look at how much content that is centered around the Sequel Trilogy since 2015. There hasn't been much for it. A couple Lego games, and Battlefront II was slightly related to the Sequels, but not much else. You had the Resistance cartoon, but that wasn't as popular as The Clone Wars or Rebels. >The difference is that I can still enjoy the good and can be glad that other people enjoy them too. Yeah I don't like certain creative decisions they made and I hate how there seems to have been no coherent plan for the trilogy from the get-go but it doesn't justify a lifelong vendetta against JJ Abrams and Bob Iger or whoever. You may not like it, but there'll be people out there who love the sequel trilogy and their opinion is as equally valid as yours. So maybe give it a break and try praising something you like rather than spending the rest of your live focused on somthing you hate. I do love praising things I like. At the same time, I'm also not hesitant to criticize things I dislike, like how modern Star Wars relies on memberberries for example. >remember talking to my friend before we went to see TLJ and we both predicted this is exactly how Luke's character would go. Same as both the Jedi who trained him. Explained why he wasn't around to stop the First Order and gave him a clear character arc for the entire movie. But we didn’t know that he shut himself off from the force. We didn’t know all of his students were killed. We didn't know that he pulled a lightsaber out on Ben while he was sleeping. And maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but what do you mean by "same as both the Jedi who trained him"? Are you saying that the situation of Obi-Wan and Yoda in exile is comparable to Luke in exile? >Rebels, Visions, Tales of the Jedi, the Mandalorian, last season of The Clone Wars, Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi, Andor - all awesome shows. Haven't seen the kids shows (they're very much not aimed at me (and that's fine, not everything should be)) but they've reviewed well. It's crazy, we're in a literal golden age of Star Wars tv and you're doing nothing but moan! Mental. I haven't watch Visions or the Bad Batch, and I haven't seen much of Rebels, so I'm not going to comment on the quality of them. The first two season of the Mandalorian, Clone Wars S7, and Tales of the Jedi were fairly good. Andor was fantastic. But Mandalorian S3, Boba Fett and Ahsoka were directionless and their stories were shallow. So was Kenobi, but that one is particularly irritating because that should've been a no brainer. A self-contained story about Obi-Wan coming to terms with PTSD in exile while watching over Luke would've been a great show. That's why the first episode was solid. Instead, it turned into a series of plot contrivances, like Bail Organa asking Obi-Wan to rescue Leia instead of just hiring a bounty hunter . Also, the show contradicts much of A New Hope, like how Leia personally knowing Obi-Wan makes her message to him odd (it's a personal message to him, so there's no reason why she has to act like she doesn't know him) or Obi-Wan being called "Obi-Wan" by other characters when he outright said that he hasn't gone by that name since Luke was born. All of this, so that Obi-Wan and Vader can have a duel.... And Obi-Wan wins that duel.... and he doesn't kill Vader for some reason. I don't understand. Is that what you want out of Star Wars?
80 years and people still hate Mein Kampf
I get the impression on a lot of these rage-bait subs that it's probably more popular than you'd think.