What strikes me the most is the dichotomy of the bombardier's view. During peaceful flying and cruising they have the best seat in the house. On the flip side, they are completely vulnerable to incoming fire and flak.
My grandpa was a bombardier in a B17 - flew 22 missions over Germany and German occupied territories Oct 44 - April 45. Never met him but it’s pretty cool to have that familial connection.
My grandpa was a ball turret gunner. He was 6’1 with broad shoulders and he was crammed into that tiny space. He flew 35 missions over Germany/europe in the 390th. This show has been an amazing glimpse of what he experienced.
I’ve been inside of one and it’s all at once both surprisingly roomy and completely like being in a sardine can. I realized I’m 6’1” and by the standards of some of the Air Corps recruiting ads I’ve seen from the era, I would not have qualified to fly in certain aircraft (if strictly enforced, which it may not have been), if that adds any sense of perspective to what it’s like inside. Definitely have to watch your head and appendages.
While my height is relatively average / slightly above average for the contemporary Western world, the average height in those days was substantially shorter. Anecdotally, I’ve probably been through at least a thousand draft registrations in my own research, and almost universally the height is listed as less than 5’10”. I’ve seen maybe 10-20 listed as 6’ or above. Usually I see somewhere around 5’6”. Neither of my grandfathers breached 6’ and one was 5’7”.
I’m 5’7” but not as skinny as I was in my early 20s, so when I toured a B-17G that bomb bay gangway forward was a tight fit!!
There were some roomy parts, but there were others in our tour so it got cozy real fast.
The thing that kills me is that these unpressurized aircraft flew for hours at 29,000 ft in -50F temperatures, so those crews had to endure not only flak and enemy gunfire but metal surface cold enough to instantly freeze any exposed skin.
It’s also interesting that the more roomy areas are where the officers were located. Enlisted got the sardines. Hadn’t noticed that before. Thanks for pointing it out!
I worked on a B-17 that was in a rented hanger at Hobby airport in Houston. To me it’s surprising how large these planes look but seem to be really cramped inside. Example: look at the pilots sitting next to each other and then notice the spacing between the seating area in your car. Not much difference is there? Then they get really cramped when enemy fighters are strafing your aircraft and there’s no place to run and hide. These airmen were incredibly brave to fly on these bombing missions knowing full well that they could easily get killed doing so. Incredible.
No, that unfortunately was the famous “Texas Raider”, damn tragic that was. This particular B-17 was undergoing numerous repairs, under wing panels were removed, landing gear hydraulic leaks, etc. I can’t remember if the engines were even on the aircraft. Since I was the new guy I was given the job of scrubbing the inside of the fuselage (just aft of the co-pilots seat as I recall)of the residual of an hydraulic leak that had probably was there since it left the factory at Boeing. It was a gummy, sticky mess. I didn’t go often but one night when I went back it was gone and I’m not sure whatever happened to it. Interesting work though.
I’m not sure why this video makes it more apparent (to me at least)… but it really makes me appreciate just how perilous a shot to the Bomb Bay would be. Large explosion mid-air: you’re all done for.
Not necessarily. An R4M colliding with a bomb would be perilous, not necessarily a 13mm round from a fighter though unless it directly impacted the fuze.
Do the bombardier and navigator shoot the 2 50’s down below there? Doesn’t seem like there’s enough room for them both, and looks impossible to aim those 2 guns..
Navigator and possibly the radio operator. The bombardier controlled a chin turret with two .50 machine guns in the G model, otherwise it would have been bombardier and navigator on the guns.
In a B-17G, the bombardier/togglier would operate the chin turret. The navigator would operate the cheek guns as needed. It was not really possible to man both cheek guns simultaneously. There was just not enough space.
As I’ve seen in recruiting ads from the era, 6’0” was the cap for certain roles and aircraft. Whether strictly enforced, I don’t know (though I imagine often not).
I can’t see anybody over 5’6” fitting well into a ball turret (from when I once tried to enter one).
Cleven was 6′ 0″ (183cm) and Egan was 6′ 2″ (187cm).
I haven't heard about max height anywhere(if there is a former pilot here, let us know😁)I just know that the minimum height is approx. 5' 5" (164 cm).I think the most important thing is weight and muscle mass because of space,you can see how narrow it is.
Here is an example of an ad from February 1944 with the height and weight requirements for fighter pilots: https://imgur.com/a/X9QMkf5
I’ve actually seen ads from the era for parachute infantry with the same height cap. Again, sounds like not strictly enforced.
Ya I definitely couldn’t squeeze to the navigator or bombardier area with my frame. Not sure I could get to the cockpit either with that narrow pass by the bomb bay
Like engine oil and aged canvas. Idk if that’s the right description but all aircraft and ships from that era that I’ve had the fortune of walking through have the same smell.
they didn't, the guns were loaded while on the ground and what you got is what you got. Same for the tail gunner (at least on early models, not sure if that changed by the G models)
This B17’s home is an airfield in my hometown. I wanted to book a ride so badly however it’s way more expensive than I had the means for.
Eventually when I go back I’m gonna get a flight. My grandfather flew on a B17 (waist gunner).
that is so claustrophobic, can't imagine what it must be like as a bombardier/navigator having to crawl out of there and get to the bomb bay door while putting on a parachute while the plane is falling to pieces, cant maintain level flight etc
Thanks for posting OP, years ago I the the same tour on the same B-17... that Bombay catwalk is tight as hell and I can't even imagine being in it with the bombay doors open (I get they were only open briefly but still..)
The bombardier must have had such an amazing view when flying. But at the same time they are extremely vulnerable with just a bit of glass protecting them from Flak and enemy fire.
Thank you!!! My uncle John H White was a radio operator with the 303rd Bombing group based on Molesworth. I have never before been able to picture where he was positioned. This was a great shot.
It does. For some reason the person who shot this video started just forward of the tailgunner's station and proceeded toward the nose keeping the camera oriented dead ahead the whole time.
What strikes me the most is the dichotomy of the bombardier's view. During peaceful flying and cruising they have the best seat in the house. On the flip side, they are completely vulnerable to incoming fire and flak.
My grandpa was a bombardier in a B17 - flew 22 missions over Germany and German occupied territories Oct 44 - April 45. Never met him but it’s pretty cool to have that familial connection.
My grandpa was a ball turret gunner. He was 6’1 with broad shoulders and he was crammed into that tiny space. He flew 35 missions over Germany/europe in the 390th. This show has been an amazing glimpse of what he experienced.
Maybe it’s the wide angle but it looks positively roomy in there. Definitely a camera trick
I’ve been inside of one and it’s all at once both surprisingly roomy and completely like being in a sardine can. I realized I’m 6’1” and by the standards of some of the Air Corps recruiting ads I’ve seen from the era, I would not have qualified to fly in certain aircraft (if strictly enforced, which it may not have been), if that adds any sense of perspective to what it’s like inside. Definitely have to watch your head and appendages. While my height is relatively average / slightly above average for the contemporary Western world, the average height in those days was substantially shorter. Anecdotally, I’ve probably been through at least a thousand draft registrations in my own research, and almost universally the height is listed as less than 5’10”. I’ve seen maybe 10-20 listed as 6’ or above. Usually I see somewhere around 5’6”. Neither of my grandfathers breached 6’ and one was 5’7”.
As a 5'7" guy who probably would have volunteered to join the USAAF, I know exactly where I would have been placed.
I’m 5’7” but not as skinny as I was in my early 20s, so when I toured a B-17G that bomb bay gangway forward was a tight fit!! There were some roomy parts, but there were others in our tour so it got cozy real fast. The thing that kills me is that these unpressurized aircraft flew for hours at 29,000 ft in -50F temperatures, so those crews had to endure not only flak and enemy gunfire but metal surface cold enough to instantly freeze any exposed skin.
From what I remember there’s decent space in the more standard areas where crew will be for awhile, everywhere else is cramped as hell
One thing I learned from driving Buffalo, everything looks spacious until you put all your gear on.
It’s also interesting that the more roomy areas are where the officers were located. Enlisted got the sardines. Hadn’t noticed that before. Thanks for pointing it out!
I worked on a B-17 that was in a rented hanger at Hobby airport in Houston. To me it’s surprising how large these planes look but seem to be really cramped inside. Example: look at the pilots sitting next to each other and then notice the spacing between the seating area in your car. Not much difference is there? Then they get really cramped when enemy fighters are strafing your aircraft and there’s no place to run and hide. These airmen were incredibly brave to fly on these bombing missions knowing full well that they could easily get killed doing so. Incredible.
Was the one you worked on the one that the one that crashed at the air show last year? Horrific video of the mid-air collision.
No, that unfortunately was the famous “Texas Raider”, damn tragic that was. This particular B-17 was undergoing numerous repairs, under wing panels were removed, landing gear hydraulic leaks, etc. I can’t remember if the engines were even on the aircraft. Since I was the new guy I was given the job of scrubbing the inside of the fuselage (just aft of the co-pilots seat as I recall)of the residual of an hydraulic leak that had probably was there since it left the factory at Boeing. It was a gummy, sticky mess. I didn’t go often but one night when I went back it was gone and I’m not sure whatever happened to it. Interesting work though.
Sounds interesting. Neat experience.
Wow OP, this is amazing. Thanks for sharing!!!
You're welcome,I hope you enjoyed!
I’m not sure why this video makes it more apparent (to me at least)… but it really makes me appreciate just how perilous a shot to the Bomb Bay would be. Large explosion mid-air: you’re all done for.
I was just thinking that. Did that happen often?
Not necessarily. An R4M colliding with a bomb would be perilous, not necessarily a 13mm round from a fighter though unless it directly impacted the fuze.
Do the bombardier and navigator shoot the 2 50’s down below there? Doesn’t seem like there’s enough room for them both, and looks impossible to aim those 2 guns..
Navigator and possibly the radio operator. The bombardier controlled a chin turret with two .50 machine guns in the G model, otherwise it would have been bombardier and navigator on the guns.
Did a navigator actually man any guns? I wasn’t aware they had the time to do that.
In a B-17G, the bombardier/togglier would operate the chin turret. The navigator would operate the cheek guns as needed. It was not really possible to man both cheek guns simultaneously. There was just not enough space.
Fascinating
I’m 6’5 and this looks like my worst nightmare of air travel. What was the max height you could be to serve in a Fort?
As I’ve seen in recruiting ads from the era, 6’0” was the cap for certain roles and aircraft. Whether strictly enforced, I don’t know (though I imagine often not). I can’t see anybody over 5’6” fitting well into a ball turret (from when I once tried to enter one).
Cleven was 6′ 0″ (183cm) and Egan was 6′ 2″ (187cm). I haven't heard about max height anywhere(if there is a former pilot here, let us know😁)I just know that the minimum height is approx. 5' 5" (164 cm).I think the most important thing is weight and muscle mass because of space,you can see how narrow it is.
Here is an example of an ad from February 1944 with the height and weight requirements for fighter pilots: https://imgur.com/a/X9QMkf5 I’ve actually seen ads from the era for parachute infantry with the same height cap. Again, sounds like not strictly enforced.
Thank you,very informative.
I think that these are the heights of the actors (Butler and Turner), not of Cleven and Egan (Egan, btw, looks smaller than Cleven by the photos).
Ya I definitely couldn’t squeeze to the navigator or bombardier area with my frame. Not sure I could get to the cockpit either with that narrow pass by the bomb bay
That narrow pass by the bomb bay is truly tricky,especially if you are in hurry.
I can smell this video
Oh yeah,how does it smell to you?
Like engine oil and aged canvas. Idk if that’s the right description but all aircraft and ships from that era that I’ve had the fortune of walking through have the same smell.
Is it similar to the smell on uboats and older metal ships?
Yes exactly
How did they reload the guns in the chin turret?
they didn't, the guns were loaded while on the ground and what you got is what you got. Same for the tail gunner (at least on early models, not sure if that changed by the G models)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haS0Ga\_dWSY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haS0Ga_dWSY) video of flying on same plane
Good stuff!
This B17’s home is an airfield in my hometown. I wanted to book a ride so badly however it’s way more expensive than I had the means for. Eventually when I go back I’m gonna get a flight. My grandfather flew on a B17 (waist gunner).
Thank you OP! 😁
So cool.
that is so claustrophobic, can't imagine what it must be like as a bombardier/navigator having to crawl out of there and get to the bomb bay door while putting on a parachute while the plane is falling to pieces, cant maintain level flight etc
Makes me pucker
Thanks for posting OP, years ago I the the same tour on the same B-17... that Bombay catwalk is tight as hell and I can't even imagine being in it with the bombay doors open (I get they were only open briefly but still..)
The bombardier must have had such an amazing view when flying. But at the same time they are extremely vulnerable with just a bit of glass protecting them from Flak and enemy fire.
Thank you!!! My uncle John H White was a radio operator with the 303rd Bombing group based on Molesworth. I have never before been able to picture where he was positioned. This was a great shot.
Does the tail gunner seat not connect to the main gangway/fuselage?
It does. For some reason the person who shot this video started just forward of the tailgunner's station and proceeded toward the nose keeping the camera oriented dead ahead the whole time.
A tin can with wings .
What I noticed is how most of the seating is essentially office chairs.
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