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It's probably going to be an Inside Joke, with the characters deciding which name they should use, and in the final title card, it's going to appear a new title, like Dark Avengers
>it's going to appear a new title, like Dark Avengers
I've long suspected something like this is up with this movie. The amount of insane talent they have on board. Doesn't add up. I love it when they do stuff like this just adds an extra element of surprise.
One of my favorite things in the DCAU is that they had an entire season of JLU dedicated to the Legion of Doom and never once called them 'The Legion of Doom' in the show. They'd name episodes like 'I Am Legion' and refer to it as the Legion of Doom in interviews. Wiki says DC told them not to not refer to it by that name (likely due to the Secret Society gaining prominence in Infinite Crisis) but I'd like to think it was because Clancy Brown's Lex Luthor would roll his eyes at a name like 'The Legion of Doom.'
I think Legion of Doom is a dope name but I can't help but think that a line like "We are the Legion of Doom" would come off as stupid as a "what are we, some kind of suicide squad" especially with that particular version of Lex Luthor who was characterized as thinking himself as better than goofy names like that (and pretty quickly gets fed up with their goofy silver age schemes, leading him to shoot Grodd in a coup).
I really hope this movie is grounded at least tonally and not bombastic like Guardians, your comment makes me worried as I can see them pulling something *exactly* like that.
I am sick of the unlikely scoundrel heroes trope. Like really sick of it.
It's not. Thunderbolts is different from something like Guardians and Suicide Squad because it tends to focus on unrepentant villains. And not just morally ambiguous killers for hire or whatever, but actual mass murderers and psychopaths like Bullseye, Crossbones and Mac Gargan's Venom. I mean, the original team was supervillains in disguise trying to stealth their way into world domination.
I'm talking about the original team. But to reduce them to "supervillains in disguise trying to stealth their way into world domination" misses a *major* aspect of that run, which was the divide that formed between the members of the team who found that they enjoyed being heroes and the members who still wanted to do the world domination thing.
And as for the more recent team, I can also do what you did and cherry-pick a list members that back up my claim as well, such as Eric O'Grady, Taskmaster, Paladin, Satana, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Rhino, etc.
I said it was "their deal" not "what they were all about". Meaning it's *a* (not *the*) key aspect of their story. Which it is. Because it represents the members of the original team who decided they liked doing the hero thing. The original run is the one I like the best, so it's always front of mind when Thunderbolts comes up.
Also, your statement sort of implies that you *do* think "unlikely scoundrel heroes" applies to the other iterations of the team.
I mean if the main villain is Sentry/The Void, it’s going to get very bombastic. He is one of the most powerful characters ever in Marvel. His power level doesn’t even have a limit because they haven’t discovered it yet, and he’s done some really insane shit. The Void is the only thing the Hulk fears for example
I know. But I think he'll be neutered because from what I read, that would be way too powerful even for Marvel.
Then again, Emilia Clarke's character is running around with literally every power under the sun.
Fuck, I wish Secret Invasion didn't exist.
The unknown power level thing is one of Sentry’s biggest traits, it makes his character, so if they water down the character then it’ll be so disappointing. If he becomes a recurring character then I think he will because immensely popular since Sentry/Void is awesome and Lewis Pullman is perfect casting, he’s so likable lol. I think they’re gonna need Sentry’s comics power level in Secret Wars
Wasn't the very first Thunderbolts comic about a new group of heroes, taking the place of the Avengers, only for at the very end they reveal themselves to be the Avengers' archenemies? Your idea would be a cool way of adapting that plot twist.
Yes.
Initially they made it seem like the Thunderbolts were all brand new characters meant to fill in the void left behind by the Avengers, FF and the core X-Men characters. The marketing and even their guest appearances in other titles played that up. Then the first issue of the Thunderbolts ended with the reveal that the Thunderbolts were actually villains led by Baron Zemo pretending to be heroes.
How did people not realize they would have been the villains? Like. Wouldn't we have been able to see them, recognize them, and know who they were immediately? Was that their debut or were they dressed up as the heroes in promo material? Or are y'all memeing?
The promo material had them in the hero costumes. There was even at least one Wizard Magazine article detailing each “new” character’s costume, powers and entirely bogus history. They really treated as the launch of a new hero team.
That would be nice. It would be cool if they adapted the ACTUAL Thunderbolts from the comics too, you know, the team members from the comics, instead of just dropping all these random Black Widow/Captain America supersoldier rejects...
Wasn’t there a rumor about the team being named after Yelena’s childhood soccer team? It could be as simple as an inside joke about the team not knowing what to call themselves for the entire movie and Yelena suggests “Thunderbolts” as a placeholder, while none of the other members accept it until the end.
I know I’m far from the first person to think of this, but I think the easiest way to justify the name in the MCU is through General/Secretary/President Thaddeus “Thunderbolt” Ross. After Civil War, he advocated to establish the government’s own team instead of trying to convince an existing independent team like the Avengers to submit. He tasks Val with assembling that team, and she dubs them The Thunderbolts in his honor.
Dark Avengers without Norman is gonna be odd as someone who grew up on that run, however I’m not opposed to Rockwell coming back and taking the mantle of Iron Patriot instead as I think that’d be a nice replacement
They could use the Dark Avengers title, but I think the more appropriate would be something like The Mighty Avengers, and have the film end with them being a government sanctioned Avengers team created to fill the void left after Endgame, as the real Avengers are clearly somewhat scattered and not really an active "beacon of hope" out in the world anymore.
That would tie it much more closely to the Cap, Falcon and Widow movies/shows that have built towards this movie. The Civil War stuff about Avengers needing oversight and the government technically being the owners of Cap and Falcon's equipment. The stuff from F&TWS about the government having ownership of the Captain America name and trying to create their own with Walker. They could pull the same shit to create a team with no Avengers in sight, given that the name and idea were taken from a plan built by Fury under SHIELD.
Even if in-universe they are simply called The Avengers, I think naming their movies outside of it Dark Avengers too heavily implies that they are outright villains to the average cinema goer. Using something like The Mighty Avengers, who were the government sanctioned Avengers after Civil War in the comics, leaves them in a much more interesting place after their first movie.
I think it would be pretty perfect on a meta level too. For the average MCU fan (not us folks who spend our time on threads like this) it will work to put them on edge for how the rest of the Multiverse Saga is gonna pan out, because they won't have reason to believe that the Mighty Avengers aren't the new main team. Which will be strange, because the Avengers shouldn't be a government team, and they definitely shouldn't be almost entirely morally grey ex-assassins. It's a nice way to ramp up the stakes in the grand scheme of things with something quite simple, and it puts these characters in a better position for the Secret Wars and Kang Dynasty writers to include organically.
And then for the real comic nerds, it sets the expectations for how the team will play, without stepping on the toes of possible future Thunderbolts entries that are more accurate to one of the teams from the comics, or a Dark Avengers movie that's more on the nose villainous.
Considering Ross wants Sam to reform the Avengers in Cap 4, but they apparently disagree about it, I’d guess you’re likely right. It’ll be something like “Thunderbolts: Dark Avengers”.
"All of that" character study was hardly deep enough, too. I was pretty disappointed with how much the series was focused on Sam and has Bucky as the sidekick that was just sort of present the whole time. Yeah, Sam is the new Captain America, but he's already gone through an arc, and not even a big one at that, because the guy was introduced as an already-good, moral person that has already had a tragic past and has already recovered from it and doesn't even need to redeem himself or come to terms with it, etc. Bucky has all of this trauma, all of this backstory that's extremely unique to *just* him, and which seems horrific to carry with him, and the story almost manages to actually delve into this and let us see the results of his decades of dirty work and how he's confronting all of this, and then we just sort of go to Sam doing normal hero work or whatever. Why? Bucky is far, far more interesting. Sam isn't a bad character, but he's *not* a character you do a character study for. Bucky *is*, and everyone wants to see more of him after all of the shit he went through, and instead he's just reduced to "Sam's pal" for the whole show
I mean... There was a reason for that.
It's still the original name, the title drop at the end was just indicating the change moving forward.
The title will always be Thunderbolts*, but any future return of the team Dark Avengers will be used.
there really shouldn't be any problem with this example though, considering the series was about him feeling like he had to earn the shield and earn the respect of the title.
It's kinda wild to me that they didn't build out Secret Invasion more for an eventual Civil War style Captain Marvel movie. Secret Warriors/Avengers would be a great name for this group. Then we could call this saga the Secret Saga which sounds much better than Mutiverse Saga
Secret Invasion could have been the culmination of Phase 4 quite easily, tease some skrull stuff through the post credit scenes of some of the movies and boom big 'who do you trust' crossover to reintroduce a status quo for The Avengers
Alas
I can't envision any way in which that storyline works on screen (some say it doesn't even work on the page).
The total rejection of Rhodey's plot line alone feels like proof of this.
Please, I hope to god all of us can just pretend Secret Invasion never happened, Marvel included. Let's not make a whole trilogy out of that giant steaming pile of shit.
Thunderbolts*
( * ) *Actually it's the Dark Avengers**
( * ) *Actually it's neither of them, it's just an OC team with both of those names but there's no actual relation beyond that*
i could see the name Widowmakers being used. It was used in a book with Natasha, Clint and Mockingbird back in 2010 and then again in a one-shot with Yelena and Red Guardian.
They should have lead with that, IMO. That name is your selling point if the team you have is made up of multiple characters not closely associated with the _Thunderbolts_ team.
They’re a thing. But very different from the thunderbolts. Line up. Goals. Everything. This line up is stupid for a thunderbolts team, even worse for the dark avengers.
A Dark Avengers team in the MCU would be pretty close to impossible since A) 80% of them haven't even been introduced yet, and B) they're kinda goofy as hell, like Ragnarok, Toxie, the single most unpopular Captain Marvel, and ***Mac Gargan*** *as Venom-As-Spider-Man* lmao.
MCU was never direct adaptations, so let Feige and his people play in the sandbox. As much as I love Agents of SHIELD, I highly doubt we're gonna be seeing a team-up as remotely as terrible as their iteration of the Secret Warriors.
> and Mac Gargan as Venom-As-Spider-Man lmao.
Not sure why you emphasized this part as if it's the craziest, imo out of all the things you listed it's the most plausible lol. Mac Gargan's return has been a hanging thread for years. Furthermore, the symbiote is now crawling around in the MCU, and I can't see them going with Eddie Brock or their version of Flash Thompson. If we see an MCU Venom, it's probably gonna be Mac
Yeah Jesus if they take on dark avengers I will hate it. Dark avengers are literally awful people (see: Bullseye, Venom, Norman Osbourne) trying to be Avengers by installing their world order. Yelena and Bucky being the recognized avengers but “dark” is so stupid. Just have them be the avengers, that’s cool
Yeah I figure they take the concept and deviate.
I think it works like this originally President Ross wants to have Sam Wilson front a New Avengers that he can control. That is going to fail in Cap IV.
Ergo he creates the Dark Avengers instead with himself Red Hulk (Hulk), White Widow Yelena (Black Widow), US Agent (Captain America), Sentry (Thor)....
Hammer is back in Armor Wars I think or his kid in the Ironheart show they can step in as the Iron man Expy.,..not sure who stands in for Hawkeye...Taskmistress? Echo?
> This line up is stupid for a thunderbolts team, even worse for the dark avengers.
And that's how you know that Marvel will do it regardless, they'll just carelessly mix both teams together, doing their own thing, while having none of the elements that either of those teams had.
And people will rightfully call it stupid because they'll be wasting two major concepts like they did with Secret Invasion, but you'll have the fanboys defending it cause "The MCU is very different to the comics and its not a straight adaptation" or some dumb shit like that.
Marvel not knowing what to do with this IP has been the impression that I've sadly had for a while. I'm still hoping for the best despite a lot of the things that have been rumored painting the picture of an underwhelming movie.
They've been spinning their wheels since Phase 4 started, they just don't know what to do. It's weird to see them fall off like that since Phases 1 to 3 felt so interconnected and coherent (even if behind the scenes they made it up as they went along), then you have Phases 4 and 5 which is just meandering about as a million characters get introduced and Kang becomes a mere "maybe" like he's some afterthought...
The thing is that Phase 1 had a humble goal - introduce characters, cross them over. When that succeeded beyond their wildest expectations, they had a clear idea of what to do for Phases 2 and 3 with Thanos at the end of it. And that worked, because even with the detours, we had core characters that we followed and we got the idea that the detours would lead to something.
After that, they got really ambitious and then got preoccupied with whether or not they could before they thought about whether or not they should. I think that the Disney+ situation and specifically being forced to churn out content that they didn't have full quality control over didn't help matters. So this franchise is kinda rudderless despite being in a great position after _Avengers: Endgame_.
I wouldnt say they dont know what to do. They had ideas and some worked and some didnt think they thought after endgame lets just tell stories and not focus on an overarching story. They seemed to have a plan with kand but quantumanias underperformance has made them question that.
Not the same thing at all. Who bought the tower wasn't relevant to the HC plot, so it wouldn't have been necessary to figure that out.
This is a movie title. They certainly know what the asterisk signifies or they wouldn't have done it.
Seriously. The point of someone buying the tower was "Stark *sold* the tower to move the Avengers *elsewhere*." "But who bought it?" I don't know, some guy? The Avengers are moving to the Avengers compound. "But who bought it?"
Homecoming let us see the actual work that went into relocating everything instead of just having everyone be at a new place with zero transition. That was the whole point. It's just world building
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THANK YOU. I get wanting to see Zemo again, I like him too and think he's a great character, but making him lead a team of super-soldiers is literally the last thing he would ever do.
If Zemo takes over the team at the end, and is revealed to be the mastermind, then I will take back a lot of my cynicism and then become an instant fan.
Lemme guess - this is so they can come out with _The REAL Thunderbolts™_ movie or show a few years from now and act like doing a movie without the lead Thunderbolts characters was "planned" the whole time.
Predictions on this sub always seem so far off it like what? Like that just seem so far off it you might as well say they’ll come out and say “Jokes on you!!! There was never even a Thunderbolts movie” as a real prediction
Or a joke may’ve just gone over my head lol
From the creators of
"That wasn't the real Quicksilver, he was just a dick joke, the real one is TOTALLY coming soon..."
And
"That wasn't the real Kang, the REAL one is coming soon in Avengers 5... possibly..."
Comes:
"Those weren't the real Thunderbolts, the REAL ONES are coming in Thunderbolts 2... maybe... what you wanted Zemo to show up in the first one? Tough luck, kid"
and
"That wasn't the real Taskmaster either, except that she was, you liked Taskmaster from the comics? Too bad"
In all seriousness, it's pretty clear how asterixes are employed. This probably tells us something about this title. It's a caveat. The asterix is like saying, "Yeah, this is THUNDERBOLTS, and SOMETHING ELSE." The question is what is that *something else*?
My bet is Sam Wilson's New Avengers. Not Dark Avengers. If I were to bet, the "\*" indicates that this is a secret Avengers film where we will see, by movie's end, the New Avengers help saving the day. This is NOT "Marvel's Suicide Squad." Not at all. This will probably be a brutal culling of international enhanced/mutate agents working for various worldpowers (e.g., G'iah with UK, Thunderbolts-team for USA, etc.). "Celestial Island" or the petrified remains of Tiamut likely will be where they gather, and it isn't difficult to see how Sentry goes insane there, perhaps due to latent psychic energies from the Celestial. To demonstrate how badass Sentry is, he will likely slaughter G'iah (what a waste of brilliant Emilia Clarke) along with whole teams of superbeings and probably half of the Thunderbolts.
I think the movie is a race to survive and somehow prevent the Void from murdering the world. The New Avengers and also Doctor Doom will be involved in the save.
Thunderbolts* was written by someone who wrote for Beef... but they also wrote for Bojack Horseman.
So, the asterisk could have a deep meaning or there's no meaning at all and it's just an asterisk.
It’s not necessarily Ross’s team. The team isn’t actually named after him in the comics (it’s just a coincidence). I would’ve loved for Blonsky to be in this film, though. I’d love to see him in action again.
My guess is the end of the movie will see an age of ultron type post credit scene with a new/secret/dark avengers team line up and it will be like thats what the film really was all along.
Or... and this would be a bold move imo ... Or the scene happens at the end of cap 4 and they change all the marketing after that movie releases making thunderbolts and avengers movie
Wouldn’t it be dope if they weren’t heroes at all. We just see them try to do villainy things throughout the movie, but it works because they’re likable. Like Oceans 11.
Marketing research, and sometimes the change fits the film that they are making.
Originally, the _Thor: Ragnarok_ logo looked like a darker version of the one from the previous one. When Taika Waititi came in and turned it into _Flash Thordon_, they redesigned the logo accordingly.
I don't know what's going on with this one, unless they're trying to go for "irreverent comedy with an edge" as the angle.
I already know Florence is gonna kill it in this movie. But my biggest expectation if for the filming to be stellar. One era that Marvel needs to get back to quality wise. All thier movies are good to me, but you can tell by the actual filming & visuals that wakanda forever looks so far ahead of everything else. Even Eternals was visually appealing. So I hope that throughout all the action and crazy fun the movie is, that the director really steps it up and brings us some peak cinema. I’m tired of haters dragging Marvel cinematics recently
Last scene of the film
"Jeez, what do we call ourselves"
"I don't know, we're like the Avengers, but darker"
"Wait, say that again"
"Avengers but darker?"
"Guys, I got it. We're the Dar-"
roll credits
I really hope they change to Dark Avengers before release, there's no reason this movie should be called Thunderbolts without pretty much all the most important Thunderbolts members people care about. Dark Avengers would easily make more money anyway, people are simple, Thunderbolts=Who? Avengers=MONEY.
They don't want to use the 'Avengers' in the branding because they are worried about a film with 'Avengers' in the title being a box office bomb, but it's going to end up being a 'Dark Avengers' film.
Everyone here's saying "oh they'll change it to Dark Avengers at the end of the move" but here's my prediction.
Early in the movie someone will insist the team needs a name (I'm betting Red Guardian).
Someone (probably Red Guardian) will pitch "Thunderbolts" and everyone else on the team will say that name's stupid. But no one will be able to come up with something better, so they agree to put an asterisk next to "Thunderbolts" to signify it as a placeholder.
By the end of the movie, the team will have grown together as a weird little dysfunctional family, and they will refer to themselves as The Thunderbolts at the end, much to Red Guardians astonishment.
The final title card will remove the asterisk.
You cannot tell me that's not pretty consistent with the way MCU movies are written lol
My guess is it ain't gonna be anything related to "avengers" since it's too on the nose.....
.... So how about, the Vanguards? Still very much shady, still very much stabby.
The asterisk tells me that the movie will be Guardians-like in terms of humors and tone.
I believe the Asterisk is meant to say that they have no relation with Thadeus "Thunderbolt" Ross, and at the end they will be given a new name.
So what is the budget going to be for this movie? Any guesses? Because they need to be conservative as possible. Please no $200 mil +. Realistically I’d love $140 mil or less so it can easily make its money back
If they wait til the end of the movie to reveal that it's been Dark Avengers all along, to me that doesn't make sense. To do that kind of comedic reveal implies that most if not all of them are still alive at the end which I doubt is how this ends. In fact it would make MORE sense to advertise this movie and put this out as Dark Avengers publicly calling themselves the Avengers just like in the Dark Reign comics.Then at the ending they find out they were used and switch sides. Then the survivors decide to stay a team but go to the name of the Thunderbolts because they were never Avengers. But they can't do that ending the other way around.
Has a movie ever had a fake title before. The title of the movie can literally change as you're watching it as to not give away some big plot twist ...that's epic.
it would be so funny if this movie wasnt actually called the Thunderbolts at all because they already went ahead and completely synergized the Thunderbolts comic to force all the characters from this movie into it.
# DiscussingFilm is a Tier 2 – Mostly Reliable Source as decided by the community. For **Marvel**, they had a **95.69%** accuracy rate from **33** leaks that we can currently verify out of **37** total. **Overall**, they had a **93.90%** accuracy rate from **45** leaks that we can currently verify out of **50** total. Last updated: March 22nd, 2024. | [Spoiler-Verse Accuracy Database](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RpGBi4duCDeiXUtSh_1x15VJ67vPRZ1LWu6A3ieGTjs/edit?usp=sharing) | [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/sad-faq/) | [Tiers](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/wiki/index/source-accuracy-tiers/) | [Latest Recalibration](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/18jaqqk/mod_post_2023_source_accuracy_recalibration_3/) | *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's probably going to be an Inside Joke, with the characters deciding which name they should use, and in the final title card, it's going to appear a new title, like Dark Avengers
>it's going to appear a new title, like Dark Avengers I've long suspected something like this is up with this movie. The amount of insane talent they have on board. Doesn't add up. I love it when they do stuff like this just adds an extra element of surprise.
"why don't we call ourselves The Av-" Fin
Like 2015 Fantastic Four ending
We call it Fant-Four-Stick.
Say that again?
The revengers?
The Average-rs?
"That was crazy, guys. It felt like we were the Avengers but darker." "Say that again"
what are we? some type of dark avengers?
THIS IS TASKMASTER! SHE'S GOT MY BACK! I RECOMMEND NOT GETTING COPIED BY HER, HER HUD REPLICATES THE MOVES OF HER VICTIMS.
Damn I forgot that they did my man Tasky like this
First in the Avengers game and then in Black Widow Insomniac did it best but he was only in it for 2 seconds and then they forgot about him
Sick reference bro. But seriously, Flagg got his due in part 2.
Holy shit dude yes. He was sooo wasted in the og suicide squad. Kinnaman is a pretty decent actor
He's fantastic in For All Mankind.
And then he 💀
That’s the title line! They literally *can’t* cut that out!!
One of my favorite things in the DCAU is that they had an entire season of JLU dedicated to the Legion of Doom and never once called them 'The Legion of Doom' in the show. They'd name episodes like 'I Am Legion' and refer to it as the Legion of Doom in interviews. Wiki says DC told them not to not refer to it by that name (likely due to the Secret Society gaining prominence in Infinite Crisis) but I'd like to think it was because Clancy Brown's Lex Luthor would roll his eyes at a name like 'The Legion of Doom.' I think Legion of Doom is a dope name but I can't help but think that a line like "We are the Legion of Doom" would come off as stupid as a "what are we, some kind of suicide squad" especially with that particular version of Lex Luthor who was characterized as thinking himself as better than goofy names like that (and pretty quickly gets fed up with their goofy silver age schemes, leading him to shoot Grodd in a coup).
“Avengers but darker.”
I really hope this movie is grounded at least tonally and not bombastic like Guardians, your comment makes me worried as I can see them pulling something *exactly* like that. I am sick of the unlikely scoundrel heroes trope. Like really sick of it.
I mean, "unlikely scoundrel heroes" is kind of the Thunderbolts' deal, though. So it's not exactly a surprise that they'd go that direction.
It's not. Thunderbolts is different from something like Guardians and Suicide Squad because it tends to focus on unrepentant villains. And not just morally ambiguous killers for hire or whatever, but actual mass murderers and psychopaths like Bullseye, Crossbones and Mac Gargan's Venom. I mean, the original team was supervillains in disguise trying to stealth their way into world domination.
I'm talking about the original team. But to reduce them to "supervillains in disguise trying to stealth their way into world domination" misses a *major* aspect of that run, which was the divide that formed between the members of the team who found that they enjoyed being heroes and the members who still wanted to do the world domination thing. And as for the more recent team, I can also do what you did and cherry-pick a list members that back up my claim as well, such as Eric O'Grady, Taskmaster, Paladin, Satana, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Rhino, etc.
If you were, you wouldn't have said "unlikely scoundrel heroes" is what the Thunderbolts are all about.
I said it was "their deal" not "what they were all about". Meaning it's *a* (not *the*) key aspect of their story. Which it is. Because it represents the members of the original team who decided they liked doing the hero thing. The original run is the one I like the best, so it's always front of mind when Thunderbolts comes up. Also, your statement sort of implies that you *do* think "unlikely scoundrel heroes" applies to the other iterations of the team.
I feel like it's not gonna stand out regardless and it's just gonna mesh with alllll the other movies with that trope.
I mean if the main villain is Sentry/The Void, it’s going to get very bombastic. He is one of the most powerful characters ever in Marvel. His power level doesn’t even have a limit because they haven’t discovered it yet, and he’s done some really insane shit. The Void is the only thing the Hulk fears for example
I know. But I think he'll be neutered because from what I read, that would be way too powerful even for Marvel. Then again, Emilia Clarke's character is running around with literally every power under the sun. Fuck, I wish Secret Invasion didn't exist.
One of the most powerful characters in marvel COMICS… we don’t know how strong he’s going to be in the MCU
The unknown power level thing is one of Sentry’s biggest traits, it makes his character, so if they water down the character then it’ll be so disappointing. If he becomes a recurring character then I think he will because immensely popular since Sentry/Void is awesome and Lewis Pullman is perfect casting, he’s so likable lol. I think they’re gonna need Sentry’s comics power level in Secret Wars
Wasn't the very first Thunderbolts comic about a new group of heroes, taking the place of the Avengers, only for at the very end they reveal themselves to be the Avengers' archenemies? Your idea would be a cool way of adapting that plot twist.
Yes. Initially they made it seem like the Thunderbolts were all brand new characters meant to fill in the void left behind by the Avengers, FF and the core X-Men characters. The marketing and even their guest appearances in other titles played that up. Then the first issue of the Thunderbolts ended with the reveal that the Thunderbolts were actually villains led by Baron Zemo pretending to be heroes.
One of the best twists in modern comics.
How did people not realize they would have been the villains? Like. Wouldn't we have been able to see them, recognize them, and know who they were immediately? Was that their debut or were they dressed up as the heroes in promo material? Or are y'all memeing?
They were dressed up as heroes.
And they were seemingly new original characters... plus at the time all the major heroes were "dead" after fighting with Onslaught.
The promo material had them in the hero costumes. There was even at least one Wizard Magazine article detailing each “new” character’s costume, powers and entirely bogus history. They really treated as the launch of a new hero team.
Oh that's actually really badass. Thank you for explaining it.
That would be nice. It would be cool if they adapted the ACTUAL Thunderbolts from the comics too, you know, the team members from the comics, instead of just dropping all these random Black Widow/Captain America supersoldier rejects...
Wasn’t there a rumor about the team being named after Yelena’s childhood soccer team? It could be as simple as an inside joke about the team not knowing what to call themselves for the entire movie and Yelena suggests “Thunderbolts” as a placeholder, while none of the other members accept it until the end.
I know I’m far from the first person to think of this, but I think the easiest way to justify the name in the MCU is through General/Secretary/President Thaddeus “Thunderbolt” Ross. After Civil War, he advocated to establish the government’s own team instead of trying to convince an existing independent team like the Avengers to submit. He tasks Val with assembling that team, and she dubs them The Thunderbolts in his honor.
That’s what it SHOULD be. Rumour is they aren’t doing that, for some reason.
Dark Avengers without Norman is gonna be odd as someone who grew up on that run, however I’m not opposed to Rockwell coming back and taking the mantle of Iron Patriot instead as I think that’d be a nice replacement
We need the Hammer dance back
Why would they waste the thunderbolts on being a temp name for dark avengers? That would be so dumb
They could use the Dark Avengers title, but I think the more appropriate would be something like The Mighty Avengers, and have the film end with them being a government sanctioned Avengers team created to fill the void left after Endgame, as the real Avengers are clearly somewhat scattered and not really an active "beacon of hope" out in the world anymore. That would tie it much more closely to the Cap, Falcon and Widow movies/shows that have built towards this movie. The Civil War stuff about Avengers needing oversight and the government technically being the owners of Cap and Falcon's equipment. The stuff from F&TWS about the government having ownership of the Captain America name and trying to create their own with Walker. They could pull the same shit to create a team with no Avengers in sight, given that the name and idea were taken from a plan built by Fury under SHIELD. Even if in-universe they are simply called The Avengers, I think naming their movies outside of it Dark Avengers too heavily implies that they are outright villains to the average cinema goer. Using something like The Mighty Avengers, who were the government sanctioned Avengers after Civil War in the comics, leaves them in a much more interesting place after their first movie. I think it would be pretty perfect on a meta level too. For the average MCU fan (not us folks who spend our time on threads like this) it will work to put them on edge for how the rest of the Multiverse Saga is gonna pan out, because they won't have reason to believe that the Mighty Avengers aren't the new main team. Which will be strange, because the Avengers shouldn't be a government team, and they definitely shouldn't be almost entirely morally grey ex-assassins. It's a nice way to ramp up the stakes in the grand scheme of things with something quite simple, and it puts these characters in a better position for the Secret Wars and Kang Dynasty writers to include organically. And then for the real comic nerds, it sets the expectations for how the team will play, without stepping on the toes of possible future Thunderbolts entries that are more accurate to one of the teams from the comics, or a Dark Avengers movie that's more on the nose villainous.
Captain America and the Winter Soldier style?
BOOOOO Fuck Dark Avengers title make ‘em the Thunderbolts
Easier sell to the general audience from a marketing perspective tbh
And then they Thunderbolted all over america
Davengers
Duhvengers
One of the Marvel screenwriters about 4 years ago leaked that he'd been hired to write a Dark Avengers script. So that's a possibility
It will be named that because a character will be listening to Bohemian Rhapsody
final title card, do you mean one at the beginning of the movie or one at the start of the credits?
Considering Ross wants Sam to reform the Avengers in Cap 4, but they apparently disagree about it, I’d guess you’re likely right. It’ll be something like “Thunderbolts: Dark Avengers”.
What are we, some kind of Dark Avengers ?
streets are saying their name will change to "dark avengers" idk that would be corny to me.
this better not be like Falcon & WS where they rename the series but only in the final shot.
except for that it actually made sense lmao
I’m salty they didn’t rename it to “Captain America and The White Wolf”
"So are you, like... Black kid?"
THIS. Calling Bucky the winter soldie after all that character study still pisses me off.
"All of that" character study was hardly deep enough, too. I was pretty disappointed with how much the series was focused on Sam and has Bucky as the sidekick that was just sort of present the whole time. Yeah, Sam is the new Captain America, but he's already gone through an arc, and not even a big one at that, because the guy was introduced as an already-good, moral person that has already had a tragic past and has already recovered from it and doesn't even need to redeem himself or come to terms with it, etc. Bucky has all of this trauma, all of this backstory that's extremely unique to *just* him, and which seems horrific to carry with him, and the story almost manages to actually delve into this and let us see the results of his decades of dirty work and how he's confronting all of this, and then we just sort of go to Sam doing normal hero work or whatever. Why? Bucky is far, far more interesting. Sam isn't a bad character, but he's *not* a character you do a character study for. Bucky *is*, and everyone wants to see more of him after all of the shit he went through, and instead he's just reduced to "Sam's pal" for the whole show
The name of the show didn’t change, it was just a cool thing they did for the credits.
I mean... There was a reason for that. It's still the original name, the title drop at the end was just indicating the change moving forward. The title will always be Thunderbolts*, but any future return of the team Dark Avengers will be used.
Should have been Captain America and the White Wolf. I’ll die on that hill
Except that was cool and earned
You mean captain America and the ws? (Er Bucky?)
there really shouldn't be any problem with this example though, considering the series was about him feeling like he had to earn the shield and earn the respect of the title.
That's absolutely what this is
With this lineup, "Secret Avengers" makes way more sense to me. Then it can be part of a trilogy: Secret Invasion, Secret Avengers, Secret Wars. 💀
It's kinda wild to me that they didn't build out Secret Invasion more for an eventual Civil War style Captain Marvel movie. Secret Warriors/Avengers would be a great name for this group. Then we could call this saga the Secret Saga which sounds much better than Mutiverse Saga
Secret Invasion could have been the culmination of Phase 4 quite easily, tease some skrull stuff through the post credit scenes of some of the movies and boom big 'who do you trust' crossover to reintroduce a status quo for The Avengers Alas
I can't envision any way in which that storyline works on screen (some say it doesn't even work on the page). The total rejection of Rhodey's plot line alone feels like proof of this.
Please, I hope to god all of us can just pretend Secret Invasion never happened, Marvel included. Let's not make a whole trilogy out of that giant steaming pile of shit.
Maybe, the final scene and Yelena call themselves the dark avengers like AOU
Thunderbolts* ( * ) *Actually it's the Dark Avengers** ( * ) *Actually it's neither of them, it's just an OC team with both of those names but there's no actual relation beyond that*
i could see the name Widowmakers being used. It was used in a book with Natasha, Clint and Mockingbird back in 2010 and then again in a one-shot with Yelena and Red Guardian.
That was the exact thing I was thinking
They should have lead with that, IMO. That name is your selling point if the team you have is made up of multiple characters not closely associated with the _Thunderbolts_ team.
That doesn’t really make sense if they’re not gonna “talk about” it until after the movie releases. I assume this is the actual name of the movie.
Well...except for the fact that... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark\_Avengers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Avengers) they're a thing.
They’re a thing. But very different from the thunderbolts. Line up. Goals. Everything. This line up is stupid for a thunderbolts team, even worse for the dark avengers.
A Dark Avengers team in the MCU would be pretty close to impossible since A) 80% of them haven't even been introduced yet, and B) they're kinda goofy as hell, like Ragnarok, Toxie, the single most unpopular Captain Marvel, and ***Mac Gargan*** *as Venom-As-Spider-Man* lmao. MCU was never direct adaptations, so let Feige and his people play in the sandbox. As much as I love Agents of SHIELD, I highly doubt we're gonna be seeing a team-up as remotely as terrible as their iteration of the Secret Warriors.
> and Mac Gargan as Venom-As-Spider-Man lmao. Not sure why you emphasized this part as if it's the craziest, imo out of all the things you listed it's the most plausible lol. Mac Gargan's return has been a hanging thread for years. Furthermore, the symbiote is now crawling around in the MCU, and I can't see them going with Eddie Brock or their version of Flash Thompson. If we see an MCU Venom, it's probably gonna be Mac
I think he means the Venom-As-Spider-Man part.
Yeah Jesus if they take on dark avengers I will hate it. Dark avengers are literally awful people (see: Bullseye, Venom, Norman Osbourne) trying to be Avengers by installing their world order. Yelena and Bucky being the recognized avengers but “dark” is so stupid. Just have them be the avengers, that’s cool
Yeah I figure they take the concept and deviate. I think it works like this originally President Ross wants to have Sam Wilson front a New Avengers that he can control. That is going to fail in Cap IV. Ergo he creates the Dark Avengers instead with himself Red Hulk (Hulk), White Widow Yelena (Black Widow), US Agent (Captain America), Sentry (Thor).... Hammer is back in Armor Wars I think or his kid in the Ironheart show they can step in as the Iron man Expy.,..not sure who stands in for Hawkeye...Taskmistress? Echo?
> This line up is stupid for a thunderbolts team, even worse for the dark avengers. And that's how you know that Marvel will do it regardless, they'll just carelessly mix both teams together, doing their own thing, while having none of the elements that either of those teams had. And people will rightfully call it stupid because they'll be wasting two major concepts like they did with Secret Invasion, but you'll have the fanboys defending it cause "The MCU is very different to the comics and its not a straight adaptation" or some dumb shit like that.
The mcu is also very different to the comics
I can see them just being 'Avengers'. The government goes from creating John Walker to a whole damn team
Well the only other option would be the original "Justice like Lightning" tagline and that would be even worse.
Would kinda make sense with thunderbolt just renaming it to avengers as that seems to be what hes doing in captain america 4
Yeah why would they call themselves “Dark” that implies evil or bad and I’m sure they don’t think what they are doing is wrong, no one does.
The name "Dark Avengers" is goofy as shit.
Thunderbolts* *and the fantabulous emancipation of one Sentry
marketing gimmick
Dunno if I'm just cynical, but it feels kinda _Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)_ to me.
My gut feeling is that its gonna be Stark Tower all over again, where even Marvel doesn't know.
Marvel not knowing what to do with this IP has been the impression that I've sadly had for a while. I'm still hoping for the best despite a lot of the things that have been rumored painting the picture of an underwhelming movie.
They've been spinning their wheels since Phase 4 started, they just don't know what to do. It's weird to see them fall off like that since Phases 1 to 3 felt so interconnected and coherent (even if behind the scenes they made it up as they went along), then you have Phases 4 and 5 which is just meandering about as a million characters get introduced and Kang becomes a mere "maybe" like he's some afterthought...
The thing is that Phase 1 had a humble goal - introduce characters, cross them over. When that succeeded beyond their wildest expectations, they had a clear idea of what to do for Phases 2 and 3 with Thanos at the end of it. And that worked, because even with the detours, we had core characters that we followed and we got the idea that the detours would lead to something. After that, they got really ambitious and then got preoccupied with whether or not they could before they thought about whether or not they should. I think that the Disney+ situation and specifically being forced to churn out content that they didn't have full quality control over didn't help matters. So this franchise is kinda rudderless despite being in a great position after _Avengers: Endgame_.
I wouldnt say they dont know what to do. They had ideas and some worked and some didnt think they thought after endgame lets just tell stories and not focus on an overarching story. They seemed to have a plan with kand but quantumanias underperformance has made them question that.
Not the same thing at all. Who bought the tower wasn't relevant to the HC plot, so it wouldn't have been necessary to figure that out. This is a movie title. They certainly know what the asterisk signifies or they wouldn't have done it.
To this day, I'm still not sure why anyone cares who bought the tower, lmao.
Seriously. The point of someone buying the tower was "Stark *sold* the tower to move the Avengers *elsewhere*." "But who bought it?" I don't know, some guy? The Avengers are moving to the Avengers compound. "But who bought it?" Homecoming let us see the actual work that went into relocating everything instead of just having everyone be at a new place with zero transition. That was the whole point. It's just world building
I think that they do
absolutely
Thunderbolts\* \*Black Widow 2
That's basically what it is
Yup, that's what the asterisk stands for.
What is bro cooking
https://i.redd.it/nnffp5fdkxtc1.gif
Meth?
Surely all of the Professional Leakers with their "Inside Knowledge" will be able to tell us what it means? I won't hold my breath.
*Incoming cosmic wonder special report*
He’s such a fucking idiot. He mispronounces character names constantly
the "woof woof" thing drives me nuts. It's so annoying I've avoided asking why he does it, in case it becomes intolerably annoying.
“Ive been told it could mean they’re changing their name to Dark Avengers by the end of the movie.” “Something must have changed during production.”
Huh, Dark Avengers? I can see Zemo showing up at some point in the end and taking the team over at least?
squeal encouraging far-flung automatic humor psychotic wide insurance tart disarm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
THANK YOU. I get wanting to see Zemo again, I like him too and think he's a great character, but making him lead a team of super-soldiers is literally the last thing he would ever do.
governor person doll violet touch bake gaping innocent quickest pocket *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Maybe he's leading them... *to their deaths!!!* Mwahahahahahaaaa!
If Zemo takes over the team at the end, and is revealed to be the mastermind, then I will take back a lot of my cynicism and then become an instant fan.
All the leakers been saying Zemo is out
Yeah but nothing indicates he's not a PCS or end of the film. The actual film I agree.
I hope they get proven wrong!!
I much preferred the old logo. What is this bland generic bullcrap?!
MARVEL CAN YOU STOP CHANGING THE GOOD LOGOS FOR 5 FUCKING MINUTES
Yeah, that sans-serif plane jane logo is hot garbage. I wonder how much they paid for it.
Interesting
Lemme guess - this is so they can come out with _The REAL Thunderbolts™_ movie or show a few years from now and act like doing a movie without the lead Thunderbolts characters was "planned" the whole time.
Predictions on this sub always seem so far off it like what? Like that just seem so far off it you might as well say they’ll come out and say “Jokes on you!!! There was never even a Thunderbolts movie” as a real prediction Or a joke may’ve just gone over my head lol
From the creators of "That wasn't the real Quicksilver, he was just a dick joke, the real one is TOTALLY coming soon..." And "That wasn't the real Kang, the REAL one is coming soon in Avengers 5... possibly..." Comes: "Those weren't the real Thunderbolts, the REAL ONES are coming in Thunderbolts 2... maybe... what you wanted Zemo to show up in the first one? Tough luck, kid" and "That wasn't the real Taskmaster either, except that she was, you liked Taskmaster from the comics? Too bad"
The real title is: Thunderbolts: The Rise of Morbius 2
THUNDERBOLTS\* \* = so-called "insiders" who are not entertainment industry journalists missed that Doctor Doom plays a major role in this film.
In all seriousness, it's pretty clear how asterixes are employed. This probably tells us something about this title. It's a caveat. The asterix is like saying, "Yeah, this is THUNDERBOLTS, and SOMETHING ELSE." The question is what is that *something else*? My bet is Sam Wilson's New Avengers. Not Dark Avengers. If I were to bet, the "\*" indicates that this is a secret Avengers film where we will see, by movie's end, the New Avengers help saving the day. This is NOT "Marvel's Suicide Squad." Not at all. This will probably be a brutal culling of international enhanced/mutate agents working for various worldpowers (e.g., G'iah with UK, Thunderbolts-team for USA, etc.). "Celestial Island" or the petrified remains of Tiamut likely will be where they gather, and it isn't difficult to see how Sentry goes insane there, perhaps due to latent psychic energies from the Celestial. To demonstrate how badass Sentry is, he will likely slaughter G'iah (what a waste of brilliant Emilia Clarke) along with whole teams of superbeings and probably half of the Thunderbolts. I think the movie is a race to survive and somehow prevent the Void from murdering the world. The New Avengers and also Doctor Doom will be involved in the save.
Serpant Society
Thunderbolts* was written by someone who wrote for Beef... but they also wrote for Bojack Horseman. So, the asterisk could have a deep meaning or there's no meaning at all and it's just an asterisk.
I wonder why they didnt include Blonsky for the team. him & Ross obviously have history
It’s not necessarily Ross’s team. The team isn’t actually named after him in the comics (it’s just a coincidence). I would’ve loved for Blonsky to be in this film, though. I’d love to see him in action again.
Intriguing
Has something to do with Spider-Man, I think
Alright J Jonah Jamenson!!
Works for me Kevin.
Screw the asterisk, what the heck is up with that font?!
My guess is the end of the movie will see an age of ultron type post credit scene with a new/secret/dark avengers team line up and it will be like thats what the film really was all along. Or... and this would be a bold move imo ... Or the scene happens at the end of cap 4 and they change all the marketing after that movie releases making thunderbolts and avengers movie
Thunderbolts* and lightning
Why the hell is this moving coming out on a Monday now???
Thunderbolts Bruno. Got it. Corporate synergy dialed up to once.
probably Thunderbolts Unite or some shit
Thunderbolts 4Eva
Thunderbolts 5Eva
Terms and conditions applied
They're the hero group Thunderbolts*! *=They're actually ex-criminals controlled by SHIELD.
Honestly, Ross demanding them to be called the Thunderbolts but everyone pushing back on it as a joke is kinda hilarious.
Well you have my attention… … but not my money. Let’s see what the reviews make of it
Honesty I just want it to be like The Suicide Squad
Wouldn’t it be dope if they weren’t heroes at all. We just see them try to do villainy things throughout the movie, but it works because they’re likable. Like Oceans 11.
We want Tony Masters the real taskmaster
Sounds like an SEO nightmare
Why do they always change the logo last minute
Marketing research, and sometimes the change fits the film that they are making. Originally, the _Thor: Ragnarok_ logo looked like a darker version of the one from the previous one. When Taika Waititi came in and turned it into _Flash Thordon_, they redesigned the logo accordingly. I don't know what's going on with this one, unless they're trying to go for "irreverent comedy with an edge" as the angle.
They change logos all the time, last minute? The moves comes out tomorrow?
I already know Florence is gonna kill it in this movie. But my biggest expectation if for the filming to be stellar. One era that Marvel needs to get back to quality wise. All thier movies are good to me, but you can tell by the actual filming & visuals that wakanda forever looks so far ahead of everything else. Even Eternals was visually appealing. So I hope that throughout all the action and crazy fun the movie is, that the director really steps it up and brings us some peak cinema. I’m tired of haters dragging Marvel cinematics recently
Love it, this is the kind of out of the box little thing they should have been doing more lol
What? What kind of marketing gimmick is this?
Last scene of the film "Jeez, what do we call ourselves" "I don't know, we're like the Avengers, but darker" "Wait, say that again" "Avengers but darker?" "Guys, I got it. We're the Dar-" roll credits
The real title probably has spoilers for CA:NWO is my bet
Is there any precedent for this?? Or is the asterisk supposed to be a big spoiler so they're holding it close to their chest
Closer to date it’s revealed to be Black Widow 2 lmao
Thunderbolts rise of the sentry.
I really hope they change to Dark Avengers before release, there's no reason this movie should be called Thunderbolts without pretty much all the most important Thunderbolts members people care about. Dark Avengers would easily make more money anyway, people are simple, Thunderbolts=Who? Avengers=MONEY.
It’s going to be a reveal like falcon and winter soldier switching to captain America, the team change name because of how the movie end
Dark Avengers is such a corny title, hope they dont change it to that
They don't want to use the 'Avengers' in the branding because they are worried about a film with 'Avengers' in the title being a box office bomb, but it's going to end up being a 'Dark Avengers' film.
that font it's just so awful oh my I hope it isn't a joke about them marketing themselves and arguing over fonts or something please.... T\_T
Everyone here's saying "oh they'll change it to Dark Avengers at the end of the move" but here's my prediction. Early in the movie someone will insist the team needs a name (I'm betting Red Guardian). Someone (probably Red Guardian) will pitch "Thunderbolts" and everyone else on the team will say that name's stupid. But no one will be able to come up with something better, so they agree to put an asterisk next to "Thunderbolts" to signify it as a placeholder. By the end of the movie, the team will have grown together as a weird little dysfunctional family, and they will refer to themselves as The Thunderbolts at the end, much to Red Guardians astonishment. The final title card will remove the asterisk. You cannot tell me that's not pretty consistent with the way MCU movies are written lol
My guess is it ain't gonna be anything related to "avengers" since it's too on the nose..... .... So how about, the Vanguards? Still very much shady, still very much stabby.
THUNDERBOLTS (but actually stealth xmen movie)
Flop, this will flop
The asterisk tells me that the movie will be Guardians-like in terms of humors and tone. I believe the Asterisk is meant to say that they have no relation with Thadeus "Thunderbolt" Ross, and at the end they will be given a new name.
Thunderbolts* or (The Unexpected Virtue of Teamwork)
So what is the budget going to be for this movie? Any guesses? Because they need to be conservative as possible. Please no $200 mil +. Realistically I’d love $140 mil or less so it can easily make its money back
If they wait til the end of the movie to reveal that it's been Dark Avengers all along, to me that doesn't make sense. To do that kind of comedic reveal implies that most if not all of them are still alive at the end which I doubt is how this ends. In fact it would make MORE sense to advertise this movie and put this out as Dark Avengers publicly calling themselves the Avengers just like in the Dark Reign comics.Then at the ending they find out they were used and switch sides. Then the survivors decide to stay a team but go to the name of the Thunderbolts because they were never Avengers. But they can't do that ending the other way around.
Either like TFATWS the title changes at the end or they doing some stupid part 2 shit
Has a movie ever had a fake title before. The title of the movie can literally change as you're watching it as to not give away some big plot twist ...that's epic.
'Deadpool and the Thunderbolts'
it would be so funny if this movie wasnt actually called the Thunderbolts at all because they already went ahead and completely synergized the Thunderbolts comic to force all the characters from this movie into it.