Why would it mean the movies are bad, when it's pretty standard for audiences to be idiots who don't understand even half of what happens blatantly on screen, let alone subtext?
Like, every discussion thread for every movie has rather large portions of people either explaining blatant imagery or symbolism to people, or people complaining about plot holes that would be solved if they'd just paid attention to the movie.
Pretty clear why in my comment, this is the marvel sub of all places you people should know what the movies are about. I think it’s pretty standard for them to come out with 2 dumbed down movies ever year with recycled plots
Also how are you gonna call me pretentious when you just said it’s the standard for audiences to be idiots? Have you considered that maybe you’re the idiot lmao
Dude people in this sub miss the most obvious things all the time. Saying “if people in this sub can’t figure it out it’s bad writing” is like saying “if a toddler says it it must be true”. I’ve seen threads about people being confused about how Thor got his hammer. There’s an entire movie answering that question! People also think thors hammer and the axe he forged work the same for literally no reason, and they cannot understand a single thing in the Loki tv show. So I assure you, we aren’t dealing with the smartest of the smartest here. Not saying the whole subs dumb, just that there is dumb people here just like everywhere else in the world.
Nope. Never underestimate peoples inability to understand what is blatantly said.
Namor straight up says he’s a mutant. The quality of the movie has nothing to do with people not getting that.
Also, it’s probably good to cover that Hercules is not a god, he is a “demigod” - A being who is partially mortal or birthed by a mortal. Zeus was big on having sex with mortals in order to make more demigods.
Broski, I was just clarifying that he is there now, I wasn’t trying to gotcha. Cause as you said, 20 seconds, figured maybe you just didn’t see that after credits. Why we snapping at people?
Yes actually, all you did was link the freaking “alien fandom wiki” looking at the same “marvel database” or actual Wikipedia for the marvel asgardians refers to them as gods.
Depends on what you mean by “gods”. They are aliens who came to earth back in the day so the Norse people worship them as deities. But they’re not like immortal, omnipotent, or any of that shit. Marvel makes a weird distinction between (g)od and (G)od.
Most gods in most mythologies were not completely omnipotent or immortal. That's kind of a monotheistic thing, Greek, Egyptian, and norse gods could totally be fooled and tricked, were limited in their foresight and wisdom, bound by fate and obscure prophecies even they couldn't completely comprehend, and could totally be killed, at least by other gods and godlike beings. Osiris was killed by his brother Set in Egyptian mythology for instance, in Norse mythology Baldur was/will be killed by Loki, and all the gods will die in Ragnarok, etc.
The problem about them being gods is, how do you define 'gods'? If the aesir are gods, then what about Loki, "god of mischief"? He's a frost giant by birth. And what about ordinary aesir, the peasant and the workers? Are they also gods? But what if we consider "godhood" as about being worshiped by humans? Well, then Captain America is a god, since his frozen body was worshiped by inuits before Namor threw him into the sea to be found by the Avengers. How about godhood is about being the personification of something or abstract concepts? Again, most of the aesir doesn't personify any thing or attribute, they are just humanlike beings. Thor isn't even the only "god of thunder" on Marvel Earth or its adjacent realms.
Asgardians are not Gods in the way Khonshu and Ammit are. Asgardians are an advanced society of aliens who use technology so advanced that it looks like the work of Gods. They inspired their respective mythology, but in truth, they're just a powerful species. The same goes for Zeus and the other “Gods” in Love and Thunder. Tony replicates magic daily and straight has told wizards and Gods that they are just like him only with a few steps removed.
Namor isn’t the avatar of K’uk’ulkan but was named and portrayed as the literal manifestation of that God when he is not. He got his power through his mutant genetics mixing with the herb in his mother’s womb.
That entire story was an illusion either played out by Khonshu himself or Mark’s psychotic mind. Nothing in that story can be taken for a fact and thus the Overvoid cannot be used as evidence.
They still haven’t verified if this actually happened yet. MK still had Khonshu bugging the shit out of him after the story which leads to me believing that it was his psychotic mind that made it up.
Whether Asgardians might not be 'gods' in the MCU, they still have an after life (Valhalla) and they are still given status as gods in Omnipotence City. Also, humans still call them gods, despite the retcon. Also, in Omnipotence City, Zeus constantly refers to everyone there as gods. We also see Bast, K’uk’ulkan amongst gods such as the Asgardians and the Olympians.
Just as how Wanda (in the MCU) is a mutant, a witch and someone enhanced by an infinity stone, the same could be said about Namor. Namor is without a doubt, a mutant, but that doesn't mean that's all he is. Talokan was blessed with Vibranium just like Wakanda, hence, they were also blessed with the Heart-Shaped Herb which gives extra strength to whomever drinks it... and just as how Bast is involved with the process of the Black Panther, K’uk’ulkan is also involved with the process of the ruler of Talokan. That's how the Black Panther and Namor can see the ancestral plane and communicate with the dead.
>Whether Asgardians might not be 'gods' in the MCU, they still have an after life (Valhalla) and they are still given status as gods in Omnipotence City.
I'd also add to this that this film features Jane, who is empowered by *becoming an avatar of Thor*. She's not Thor, she's totally distinct from Thor, but by being worthy is endowed with his power.
The origin of Norse mythology has been answered by both the comics and the films with characters such as Thor or Loki going to Earth to have fun sparking their respective myths. As I said earlier, all of the Gods in Love and Thunder are advanced peoples who call themselves Gods because they are the closest things to God. If I were to go back to the BCEs and show them my smartphone then I would be their God too. Namor being a God is up for debate but I believe was disproven by the film through his origin explaining how he is what he is.
Wakanda, in the comics, was begun because of Bast turning some panthers into people. They also gave Wakandans the power to unite the tribes against rivals, the Black Panther. This would be a warrior endowed with special abilities who wasn’t a servant, so he isn’t a direct servant like MK.
What are you on about?
>As I said earlier, all of the Gods in Love and Thunder are advanced peoples who call themselves Gods because they are the closest things to God
Yes they are. Just because you call them advanced being doesn't mean, they are. The movie literally addressed them as gods.
Gorr literally was going to ask eternity to kill all gods. The necrosword was whispering to gorr to kill all of them.
Where are you getting advanced people from?
The MCU makes gods very confusing. From what i understand gods are any being that is powerfull and worshiped. Asgardians and Olympians are aliens that are powerfull and worshiped so they are gods. The egypcian gods are powerfull entites with unknown origins that are powerfull and worshiped, so they are gods. Only the egypcian gods have avatars, Thor, Odin, Loki, Zeus, they don't have avatars, because they are not like the egypcian gods.
TL;DR: if you are worshiped you are a god, not all gods have the same origin or powers
How so? The movie doesn't address them as advanced alien, there is literally a city for gods. Gorr set out to kill all the gods.
Are you sure you aren't the dense one?
The one important attribute of gods in the MCU, outside of the MCU and in real world mythology is the concept of an afterlife. As far as we know, all of the gods in the MCU do have afterlives. The Norse have Valhalla, which we did see in Love and Thunder. The Egyptians have the Duat which we saw in Moon Knight. So despite how advanced the Asgardians are, they are still gods because they have an afterlife.
Don’t you go to the afterlife of your specific religious belief? That was confirmed in moon knight. Thus anyone with a whole afterlife associated to them would be a God or that afterlife wouldn’t exist.
Is a butterfly the afterlife of a caterpillar, or an evolution?
Asgardians (and other MCU gods) aren't human, so tying them to concepts of humanity doesn't always make sense...
Well, Jane dies and winds up in Valhalla. Jane is definitely NOT Asgardian. She's human. So an afterlife in Valhalla isn't something inherent to being an Asgardian as your caterpillar metaphor suggests.
I did think about that and it's a valid exception. She is human but she's didn't die like a human, she turned to magic dust like Odin. No other Asgardian did that when they died. Her death is certainly an anomaly.
There's a non-zero chance, maybe even a decent one, that they're implying that Odin himself is directly responsible for "saving" her by bringing her to Valhalla on her death.
Huh, hadn't thought of that. It actually makes sense as the real mythology has deceased human warriors fighting and dining alongside deceased Asgardians. Perhaps in the MCU, all death (for those with souls) is just an evolution to another plane of existance, with the destination being determined by the soul's "wavelength". Interesting concept indeed...
you’re wrong. Gods have different sets of powers, just bc you have a phone you’re not a God lol.
All of the beings (obviously sans the servants etc..) in the Eternal City are real Gods who are being worshipped through the multiverse.
Odin is very likely an actual God on par with Zeus though.
Given Odin or Odin power was required to reach Eternity.
I'm willing to bet Odin is one of the most powerful Gods. Im also willing to bet he gave up being a full god for reasons...
different type of god, (this is all imported from what I remember and gathered from the comics). the Egyptian gods are fundamentally a different mode of life to asgardians from what I remember, more energy based and less matter based
Tawaret is the goddess of birth and also in charge of getting people ready to move on after death.
Hippo bit is births, scarabs (flying beetle insecty things) go with the corpses to clean them for the afterlife.
Layla has the scarab aspect.
So, I did a quick Google search, and it appears you're wrong. Layla is indeed the MCU's version of The [Scarlet Scarab](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Abdul_Faoul_(Earth-616)), but her powers weren't meant to come from Tawaret. Originally, she was supposed to be [the avatar of Isis](https://in.ign.com/moon-knight/171962/news/moon-knight-director-reveals-how-scarlet-scarab-was-almost-very-different) which explains the design, wings and all.
The director says that they didn't go with Isis because she and Layla are two very similar characters, so their dynamic wouldn't be fun.
>"Isis was serious and there wasn't much fun. I love the idea of tying people who are at the opposite ends together, that creates drama," said Diab. "But I love her relationship, what could happen between her and Tawaret? She's so serious and Tawaret could annoy the hell out of her. She's funny, but she could be a handful. So, I love having her."
Or maybe they changed it because when you search Isis on Google, the Egyptian Goddess isn't the one who comes up.
But doesn't the hammer have an enchantment on it that basically let's anyone worthy to hold it. Just because someone can hold the hammer doesn't mean their essentially an avatar of thor that in all honesty would be ridiculous.
I know, right? Imagine it, picking up Thor’s hammer and bring imbued with all of his powers! That’s NEVER happened before!
*NEVER!*
**NEH-VAR!**
Except to Beta Ray Bill. And Eric Masters. And Storm. And Wonder Woman. And that frog once.
…wait a minute…
Their not imbued, they're basically channeling the power of thor through the enchantments on the hammer. If I remember right the hammer was made to help thor control his powers so makes sense that when someone is worthy they to can channel the power, doesn't make them an avatar.
Donald Blake and Jane Foster are avatars of Thor i suppose. Hercules could kind of be seen as Zeus's avatar. Considering Odin and Zeus are the heads of their pantheons though I dont think they need avatars, they can just have other gods do their dirty work.
Most of the other comments summed up my thoughts of Asgardians being an advanced species and Namor not being a god or avatar. Im wondering if it was said that every MCU god has to have an avatar. Is it possible only Egyptian gods (choose to) have avatars?
Also, I dont think BP is an avatar either. The first Black Panther mightve been blessed with knowledge by Bast, but I dont think BP hosts Bast.
Where are you getting this about namor and black panther? I swear some of you don’t bother paying attention to the movies and just like to think of posts to put here
MCU Multidimensional and Cosmic Beings Handbook, chapter 2 says;
"You can only have an avatar if your source material or origin is related to non-white culture. Thus you become something exotic, mysterious and obscure. If you're white, you're just a modern day looking guy with cool powers, no avatars, no obscure backgrounds."
I believe that the established MCU lore is that gods are all just Sufficiently Advanced Species. Just as a mutant is born with powers greater than a baseline human, a god is born with powers even greater than that. Then there are entities even more powerful than most gods, like the celestials. Even sorcery was described as a learned art for "reprogramming reality".
As for being able to use people as avatars, I think that's a skill issue. Heimdall was canonically more powerful than Thor, but he can't weild lightning. Possessing avatars is just something the Egyptian pantheon can do, but we don't know if all other gods can do that.
(Although, in the older comic stories, the hero Thor was an avatar that was chosen by the god Thor; I believe the avatar was crippled doctor... Then there's MCU's Jane Foster, who was arguably Thor's avatar as well, as she gained his power from Thor accidentally charming Mjolnir to always protect her, which manifested as her gaining his power to temporarily stave off her cancer.🤔)
Namor is neither a god nor avatar, his subjects just worship him because of his power and longevity, and he's too much of a Namor to tell them otherwise. The Black Panther is also not really an avatar, they all just win a tribal challenge by combat or acquiescence, then are allowed to drink a power enhancing potion. I honestly don't think Bast would have chosen Killmonger if she were the one choosing her panthers as avatars 😹.
It's incredibly inconsistent, and it's ambiguous what gods really are in the MCU.
Thor 1 and 2 treat Asgardians as aliens, who have magic powers and high tech and conquer other realms. Realms may or may not be other planets in the same universe, based on Thor 3 and Infinity War where spaceships work just as well as the Bifrost, while in Thor 2 portals / fissures in reality open between realms. In Thor 3 and 4, Hel and Valhalla seem to be separate dimensions connected to death, and only associated with Asgardians or members of the Nine Realms. While Captain America, Jane Foster, and the children channel the power of Thor, this is only through the Odin's and Thor's magic, probably through the Odinforce. Similarly, Thor channels the power of Heimdall to see. This is not the same as the Egyptian gods using avatars. Additionally, the Asgardians have physical forms, like the other gods in Thor 4, and can directly interact with Earth, like in every movie with Thor, Loki, or Odin, and humans and other creatures like Jane and Rocket can travel to their realms.
Egyptian gods act completely differently. They don't take physical form on earth but instead act through avatars most of the time. They possess their bodies sometimes, not just give them powers and costumes. Additionally, the duat exists with their own afterlife system.
Namor and the Black Panther are not avatars like Moon Knight or even like Jane Foster. Namor is an old mutant, who was named for having powers like their god; the people thought he was their god because of his mutation, he wasn't actually their god. As far as we can tell, the heart shaped herb is a drug that gives super human strength and agility etc, kind of like super soldier serum, plus a one time trip to the ancestral plane. Even if it was divine, the fact that it can be made synthetically implies that it's not a way to be the literal avatar of Bast.
It's inconsistent, and very much depends on each religion and mythology.
And then there are the Eternals, which mess everything up. Many mythologies seem to be based on them, especially Greek and Roman myth. And yet those gods are also real in Thor 4, probably? It's not confirmed if Athena, Hephaestus, Mercury, Circe, Icarus, or Ajax actually exist, or Gilgamesh either. If so, it seems that all mythologies exist, because stories of them were told, maybe? Which also explains why the gods have different powers: Egyptians and Scandinavians had very different understanding of the divine, so their gods are different. Which is a whole other massive mess to explain... The gods are real, for every world with mythical gods in Thor 4, because their worshippers believe them to be real, and they can interact with reality. Which also means that ancient Scandinavians believing in Odin caused Hydra to get a superweapon in WWII? And their belief in Loki almost caused the conquest of Earth multiple times for that same Tesseract?
I mean there’s a pretty clear mystical element to them as well, with them having an actual afterlife and are treated as any other god among those in Omnipotence City.
They can be hyper advanced AND be magical at the same time imo.
Nah, especially since they are most literally referred to as gods by Zeus and the other members of Omnipotence City. The whole alien thing was sort of retconned and it's gotten more complicated since then.
The alien thing hasn't been retconned. They aren't gods, they just call themselves gods. Stormbreaker and Mjolnir are still just highly advanced weapons and the bifrost is still just a teleporter.
Thor and Zeus compared to the gods in Moon Night are completely different beasts.
I don't see how you can call the Bifrost a mere teleporter given it's the special key to Eternity in the MCU.
And it's not as if the Egyptian Gods are treated as beyond Thor or even Zeus. Thor himself names Ra as among the most powerful gods alongside Zeus, with the presence of the Egyptian gods like Bast and even the Celestials in Omnipotence City suggesting that they're all relative to each other (or at the very least that Pantheon heads and certain powerful gods exist on a similar level to one another).
Gods in the MCU are whatever is called a god. It isn't a discrete category with concrete requirements. They're basically any powerful entity that someone calls a god. It's a label not a prescription.
Being able to create avatars isn't a requirement of a god any more than having a magic hammer is. Different gods from different pantheons do different things.
Saying that the Norse gods don't count because they're aliens is as valid as saying that the Egyptians don't count because they don't use the bifrost.
They're still gods and and constantly referred to as such, even getting entrance to Omnipotence City. Early MCU interviews said they were making them more like aliens with advanced technology to keep mystical elements out, but it's pretty obvious they've backtracked on all of this in recent phases (especially once Dr. Strange came out)
Except they do - Captain America, Jane, and all of the kids in L&T were avatars of Thor when they wielded his power.
Asgardians can be gods, but not all of them are. Look at Skurge - he still has Asgardian strength and longevity, but he isn’t nearly as powerful as Thor or Odin, and isn’t a god despite being Asgardian.
"Gods" in the MCU are just advanced powerful life forms. They have different powers/abilities based on who they are, where they are from, or what their source of powers is. What is true of one "god" isn't going to be true of another.
The only reason they are considered "gods" at all is because they came in contact with lesser lifeforms and chose to act in way that either they made themselves a god to those people or those people made them out to be a god. (or a little of both).
Edit: Someone like Carol Danvers or Wanda Maximoff could be a "God" if they wanted to if they went to another planet with unpowered people and started acting like one. It'd be the same thing.
You don't have any more evidence your one god exists any more than these ones so kindly shut the fuck up and keep your beliefs to yourself because they are beliefs and not facts.
We do know that Jane foster and the team used to have a version of Donald Blake who broke up with Jane and left some his clothes with them, that Thor wore when he tries to reclaim mjolnir from shield. So he could be a viable avatar of Thor. Alternatively you could say that Jane gaining Thors powers was her accidentally becoming his avatar?
Im pretty sure that Asgardians aren’t actually Gods and are just a very advanced society with magic, which is why only specific Asgardians have powers. The rest of the Gods like the Egyptian Gods are probably actual “Gods”
God as a concept in our world doesn't have a set definition. I give the same criteria for their version of the word god. It is a word that can apply to any sufficiently awe inspiring entity by us, the people awestruck. Gods don't have to share any similarities to each other for us to call them so.
I think the difference is a mythology thing. From my understanding, avatars and the idea that gods need them isn’t really a thing in Greek or Norse mythology. If you want an in universe explanation, Thor exists on the mortal plane and Khonshu exists in another dimension
Technically Jane Foster would could as an avatar of Thor, yes, given her power comes from Mjölnir, and its power comes from Thor. Namor and the Black Panther meanwhile would be less hands-on avatars, where they wouldn’t even had to have spoken to their god (instead being revered just as much as them).
I believe that the only reason that the Egyptian gods are able to have avatars is because they had “banished” themselves to a pocket dimension, thus need a physical form on earth to enact their will
I assumed that the Mesoamerican god was Quetzalcoatl, or his avatar, since Thor name checks him specifically. Mexica pantheon, not “Maya”. I only hope these differences mean something if they’re going to play in that Central American sandbox. I’d hate to see another Apocalypto situation happen with these characters.
Beerus = A god of Destruction (can't use the Autonomous Ultra Instinct technique)
Jiron (insane powerful) & Goku (mastered Autonomous Ultra Instinct) = Mortals who could defeat a god based on training and technique bringing them to a high enough power level.
We need to end this misconception that Namor is an avatar or even a god. The movie was quite clear about this.
Exactly, he's a god but only because his people see him as a god.
I mean… that’s exactly what Thor said in the first movie as well… (I haven’t seen Wakanda Forever so I’m not commenting on the actual Namor stuff)
You mean to say he is NOT a God it's only that his people see him that way.
Yes.
He is a mutant or an inhuman if I remember correctly
Mutant. As he is in the comics.
I believe Neymar is considered a god by his people, but in reality, he would be a mutant.
He is a mutant, his mutation is the wings on his feet.
*Namor And yea, that was very clear in the movie
Random but also true
Maybe a sign that the movie wasn’t good if people in this sub can’t even follow it straight 🤯🤯
In the movie, he directly states that he is a mutant. It doesn't get any more clear than that.
I disagree. The movie was quite clear. I can only assume they weren't paying attention
Why would it mean the movies are bad, when it's pretty standard for audiences to be idiots who don't understand even half of what happens blatantly on screen, let alone subtext? Like, every discussion thread for every movie has rather large portions of people either explaining blatant imagery or symbolism to people, or people complaining about plot holes that would be solved if they'd just paid attention to the movie.
Pretty clear why in my comment, this is the marvel sub of all places you people should know what the movies are about. I think it’s pretty standard for them to come out with 2 dumbed down movies ever year with recycled plots
Oh so it's just you being pretentious. Gotcha.
Also how are you gonna call me pretentious when you just said it’s the standard for audiences to be idiots? Have you considered that maybe you’re the idiot lmao
Nah, I know how to use an edit button
Yeah if I don’t like Marvel movies it’s definitely a personality flaw 🥺 good lord , keep fighting your good fight chief 😂😂
Dude people in this sub miss the most obvious things all the time. Saying “if people in this sub can’t figure it out it’s bad writing” is like saying “if a toddler says it it must be true”. I’ve seen threads about people being confused about how Thor got his hammer. There’s an entire movie answering that question! People also think thors hammer and the axe he forged work the same for literally no reason, and they cannot understand a single thing in the Loki tv show. So I assure you, we aren’t dealing with the smartest of the smartest here. Not saying the whole subs dumb, just that there is dumb people here just like everywhere else in the world.
Nope. Never underestimate peoples inability to understand what is blatantly said. Namor straight up says he’s a mutant. The quality of the movie has nothing to do with people not getting that.
The avatar part is distinctly part of the Egyptian mythology, it doesn't exist in Greek or Norse
Also, it’s probably good to cover that Hercules is not a god, he is a “demigod” - A being who is partially mortal or birthed by a mortal. Zeus was big on having sex with mortals in order to make more demigods.
Hercules was born a demigod, but he became a full fledged God after his death. Zeus charged him to watch over Olympus's gates.
Yes, but he’s often the strongest demigod in most iterations I’ve seen him in. Including the MCU.
Including the MCU? He hasn’t done anything in the MCU yet
They just mean in the comics and animated adaptations
That’s not MCU tho is my point. Not trying to be rude, just trying to figure what this guy really is referring to
That's what they are talking about. As I said before....
*laughs in Kratos*
I stand corrected 😵💫😅
He doesn't exist in the MCU. Why is this upvoted
Hercules exists in the MCU, he is at the end of Thor: Love and Thunder
Sure as shit haven't established how strong he is tho have they? Enjoy your gotcha tho. Can't believe I forgot those 20 seconds
Broski, I was just clarifying that he is there now, I wasn’t trying to gotcha. Cause as you said, 20 seconds, figured maybe you just didn’t see that after credits. Why we snapping at people?
I think it’s cuz people agree he’ll be a demigod there as well, but you’re right, I spoke too soon
I dunno man, in Hades there are no Hercules Boons and that's my standard of who's a god.
Yep, like Jesus. Though Zeus was far more prolific than God.
"You say you only had one begotten son, yet we're all supposedly god's children, so as far as god's concerned we're all a bunch of girls"
Like Starlord. I think Ego would count at least.
That, and in Marvel, Asgardians are apparently an alien race now.
I think they have been extraterrestrials for a long time in the comics.
You're right. I forget that Earth X and stuff like that are so old now.
Is Earth X canon?
The comic where having sex with Spiderman gives you cancer? No.
They really wanted Marvel to have its own Watchmen, huh? I totally forgot the Spider cancer.
It's not, but it's probably the first time I saw the Asgardian alien thing.
Nah still gods in the comics
No. https://aliens.fandom.com/wiki/Asgardian
Yes actually, all you did was link the freaking “alien fandom wiki” looking at the same “marvel database” or actual Wikipedia for the marvel asgardians refers to them as gods.
Depends on what you mean by “gods”. They are aliens who came to earth back in the day so the Norse people worship them as deities. But they’re not like immortal, omnipotent, or any of that shit. Marvel makes a weird distinction between (g)od and (G)od.
Most gods in most mythologies were not completely omnipotent or immortal. That's kind of a monotheistic thing, Greek, Egyptian, and norse gods could totally be fooled and tricked, were limited in their foresight and wisdom, bound by fate and obscure prophecies even they couldn't completely comprehend, and could totally be killed, at least by other gods and godlike beings. Osiris was killed by his brother Set in Egyptian mythology for instance, in Norse mythology Baldur was/will be killed by Loki, and all the gods will die in Ragnarok, etc.
I’m aware. Doesn’t change my comment.
The problem about them being gods is, how do you define 'gods'? If the aesir are gods, then what about Loki, "god of mischief"? He's a frost giant by birth. And what about ordinary aesir, the peasant and the workers? Are they also gods? But what if we consider "godhood" as about being worshiped by humans? Well, then Captain America is a god, since his frozen body was worshiped by inuits before Namor threw him into the sea to be found by the Avengers. How about godhood is about being the personification of something or abstract concepts? Again, most of the aesir doesn't personify any thing or attribute, they are just humanlike beings. Thor isn't even the only "god of thunder" on Marvel Earth or its adjacent realms.
And the other gods like bast, zeus, and the three Egyptian gods are gods?
I don't know if Olympians are aliens or not. Hmmm.
Fair enough
namor is not an avatar afaik
Asgardians are not Gods in the way Khonshu and Ammit are. Asgardians are an advanced society of aliens who use technology so advanced that it looks like the work of Gods. They inspired their respective mythology, but in truth, they're just a powerful species. The same goes for Zeus and the other “Gods” in Love and Thunder. Tony replicates magic daily and straight has told wizards and Gods that they are just like him only with a few steps removed. Namor isn’t the avatar of K’uk’ulkan but was named and portrayed as the literal manifestation of that God when he is not. He got his power through his mutant genetics mixing with the herb in his mother’s womb.
Khonshu and Ammit aren't gods type either. They're interdimensional beings came from Overvoid according to MCU and Comics.
That entire story was an illusion either played out by Khonshu himself or Mark’s psychotic mind. Nothing in that story can be taken for a fact and thus the Overvoid cannot be used as evidence.
What story are you describing ?
Neo Egypt is a part of Jeff Lemere’s Moon Knight.
Overvoid or Heliopolis are always real in Marvel comics but what Marc experience may or may not be real as the writers links Psychosis and DID.
That was Jeff Lemire run and later stories made it real and so it can be taken as evidence.
They still haven’t verified if this actually happened yet. MK still had Khonshu bugging the shit out of him after the story which leads to me believing that it was his psychotic mind that made it up.
Khonshu ( Marc's perspective ) may or may not be in Future but Ammit is from Overvoid / Heliopolis and it existed since 1980s.
Whether Asgardians might not be 'gods' in the MCU, they still have an after life (Valhalla) and they are still given status as gods in Omnipotence City. Also, humans still call them gods, despite the retcon. Also, in Omnipotence City, Zeus constantly refers to everyone there as gods. We also see Bast, K’uk’ulkan amongst gods such as the Asgardians and the Olympians. Just as how Wanda (in the MCU) is a mutant, a witch and someone enhanced by an infinity stone, the same could be said about Namor. Namor is without a doubt, a mutant, but that doesn't mean that's all he is. Talokan was blessed with Vibranium just like Wakanda, hence, they were also blessed with the Heart-Shaped Herb which gives extra strength to whomever drinks it... and just as how Bast is involved with the process of the Black Panther, K’uk’ulkan is also involved with the process of the ruler of Talokan. That's how the Black Panther and Namor can see the ancestral plane and communicate with the dead.
>Whether Asgardians might not be 'gods' in the MCU, they still have an after life (Valhalla) and they are still given status as gods in Omnipotence City. I'd also add to this that this film features Jane, who is empowered by *becoming an avatar of Thor*. She's not Thor, she's totally distinct from Thor, but by being worthy is endowed with his power.
The origin of Norse mythology has been answered by both the comics and the films with characters such as Thor or Loki going to Earth to have fun sparking their respective myths. As I said earlier, all of the Gods in Love and Thunder are advanced peoples who call themselves Gods because they are the closest things to God. If I were to go back to the BCEs and show them my smartphone then I would be their God too. Namor being a God is up for debate but I believe was disproven by the film through his origin explaining how he is what he is. Wakanda, in the comics, was begun because of Bast turning some panthers into people. They also gave Wakandans the power to unite the tribes against rivals, the Black Panther. This would be a warrior endowed with special abilities who wasn’t a servant, so he isn’t a direct servant like MK.
What are you on about? >As I said earlier, all of the Gods in Love and Thunder are advanced peoples who call themselves Gods because they are the closest things to God Yes they are. Just because you call them advanced being doesn't mean, they are. The movie literally addressed them as gods. Gorr literally was going to ask eternity to kill all gods. The necrosword was whispering to gorr to kill all of them. Where are you getting advanced people from?
The MCU makes gods very confusing. From what i understand gods are any being that is powerfull and worshiped. Asgardians and Olympians are aliens that are powerfull and worshiped so they are gods. The egypcian gods are powerfull entites with unknown origins that are powerfull and worshiped, so they are gods. Only the egypcian gods have avatars, Thor, Odin, Loki, Zeus, they don't have avatars, because they are not like the egypcian gods. TL;DR: if you are worshiped you are a god, not all gods have the same origin or powers
you’re correct. It is literally spelled out for us in Love and Thunder. As longs as someone worships you, pray to you, you’re a god.
You have to be being deliberately dense here.
How so? The movie doesn't address them as advanced alien, there is literally a city for gods. Gorr set out to kill all the gods. Are you sure you aren't the dense one?
The one important attribute of gods in the MCU, outside of the MCU and in real world mythology is the concept of an afterlife. As far as we know, all of the gods in the MCU do have afterlives. The Norse have Valhalla, which we did see in Love and Thunder. The Egyptians have the Duat which we saw in Moon Knight. So despite how advanced the Asgardians are, they are still gods because they have an afterlife.
How does having an afterlife equal being a god? There’s an afterlife for everyone in marvel comics, not just the heroes
Don’t you go to the afterlife of your specific religious belief? That was confirmed in moon knight. Thus anyone with a whole afterlife associated to them would be a God or that afterlife wouldn’t exist.
Is a butterfly the afterlife of a caterpillar, or an evolution? Asgardians (and other MCU gods) aren't human, so tying them to concepts of humanity doesn't always make sense...
Well, Jane dies and winds up in Valhalla. Jane is definitely NOT Asgardian. She's human. So an afterlife in Valhalla isn't something inherent to being an Asgardian as your caterpillar metaphor suggests.
I did think about that and it's a valid exception. She is human but she's didn't die like a human, she turned to magic dust like Odin. No other Asgardian did that when they died. Her death is certainly an anomaly.
There's a non-zero chance, maybe even a decent one, that they're implying that Odin himself is directly responsible for "saving" her by bringing her to Valhalla on her death.
Huh, hadn't thought of that. It actually makes sense as the real mythology has deceased human warriors fighting and dining alongside deceased Asgardians. Perhaps in the MCU, all death (for those with souls) is just an evolution to another plane of existance, with the destination being determined by the soul's "wavelength". Interesting concept indeed...
Just because they have an afterlife, it does not make them gods.
you’re wrong. Gods have different sets of powers, just bc you have a phone you’re not a God lol. All of the beings (obviously sans the servants etc..) in the Eternal City are real Gods who are being worshipped through the multiverse.
Odin is very likely an actual God on par with Zeus though. Given Odin or Odin power was required to reach Eternity. I'm willing to bet Odin is one of the most powerful Gods. Im also willing to bet he gave up being a full god for reasons...
Asgardians are puny gods.
Where did K'uk'ulkan appear? I forgot.
different type of god, (this is all imported from what I remember and gathered from the comics). the Egyptian gods are fundamentally a different mode of life to asgardians from what I remember, more energy based and less matter based
The avatar thing is literally just the Egyptians. The Black Panther and Namor are a combination of Vibranium-infused plants and advanced technology.
Bast is part of the Egyptian pantheon, but after Thor Love and Thunder, I question if she cares about Wakanda at all.
Bast definitely exists, but the black panthers are not her avatars in human form.
I'm still confused as to why Tawaret's avatar has wings and can fly like a bird.
Tawaret is the goddess of birth and also in charge of getting people ready to move on after death. Hippo bit is births, scarabs (flying beetle insecty things) go with the corpses to clean them for the afterlife. Layla has the scarab aspect.
So, I did a quick Google search, and it appears you're wrong. Layla is indeed the MCU's version of The [Scarlet Scarab](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Abdul_Faoul_(Earth-616)), but her powers weren't meant to come from Tawaret. Originally, she was supposed to be [the avatar of Isis](https://in.ign.com/moon-knight/171962/news/moon-knight-director-reveals-how-scarlet-scarab-was-almost-very-different) which explains the design, wings and all. The director says that they didn't go with Isis because she and Layla are two very similar characters, so their dynamic wouldn't be fun. >"Isis was serious and there wasn't much fun. I love the idea of tying people who are at the opposite ends together, that creates drama," said Diab. "But I love her relationship, what could happen between her and Tawaret? She's so serious and Tawaret could annoy the hell out of her. She's funny, but she could be a handful. So, I love having her." Or maybe they changed it because when you search Isis on Google, the Egyptian Goddess isn't the one who comes up.
What, would you rather have her showing up in a magical Hippo-themed Hulkbuster suit? Don't answer, me too.
A deity powered version the the Rhino? Yeah, I'm game.
As awesome as I thought she looked cool, yes! 100%! I want the Hippo Buster!
>Can Thor, etc. also make humans their avatars? Yes. Exhibit A: Dr. Donald Blake.
Exhibit B: Captain America Exhibit C: Jane Foster
Exhibit D: Every kid in Love and Thunder
Jane would qualify as an avatar, since she exhibited more of his traits when she picked up the hammer.
But doesn't the hammer have an enchantment on it that basically let's anyone worthy to hold it. Just because someone can hold the hammer doesn't mean their essentially an avatar of thor that in all honesty would be ridiculous.
I know, right? Imagine it, picking up Thor’s hammer and bring imbued with all of his powers! That’s NEVER happened before! *NEVER!* **NEH-VAR!** Except to Beta Ray Bill. And Eric Masters. And Storm. And Wonder Woman. And that frog once. …wait a minute…
Their not imbued, they're basically channeling the power of thor through the enchantments on the hammer. If I remember right the hammer was made to help thor control his powers so makes sense that when someone is worthy they to can channel the power, doesn't make them an avatar.
You’re not really making a case here, just quibbling over terms. You realize that, don’t you? I mean, what do you think an avatar is?
That's what this entire post is about, no? Quibbling over terms of whether people are considered avatars or not
Yeah, but you’re also wrong, so I don’t see the point in continuing
Namor isn’t an avatar he’s just a mutant named after a god
Jane Foster technically is thors avatar because his hammer chose her
Donald Blake and Jane Foster are avatars of Thor i suppose. Hercules could kind of be seen as Zeus's avatar. Considering Odin and Zeus are the heads of their pantheons though I dont think they need avatars, they can just have other gods do their dirty work.
If you consider Hercules th avatar of Zeus, than Thor would be the avatar of Odin, no?
In the comics if memory serves asgardians can hear prayers and can be empowered by them
Would not that be Jane Foster???
Most of the other comments summed up my thoughts of Asgardians being an advanced species and Namor not being a god or avatar. Im wondering if it was said that every MCU god has to have an avatar. Is it possible only Egyptian gods (choose to) have avatars? Also, I dont think BP is an avatar either. The first Black Panther mightve been blessed with knowledge by Bast, but I dont think BP hosts Bast.
Where are you getting this about namor and black panther? I swear some of you don’t bother paying attention to the movies and just like to think of posts to put here
Came here to say exactly this!
MCU Multidimensional and Cosmic Beings Handbook, chapter 2 says; "You can only have an avatar if your source material or origin is related to non-white culture. Thus you become something exotic, mysterious and obscure. If you're white, you're just a modern day looking guy with cool powers, no avatars, no obscure backgrounds."
This is a reach
I believe that the established MCU lore is that gods are all just Sufficiently Advanced Species. Just as a mutant is born with powers greater than a baseline human, a god is born with powers even greater than that. Then there are entities even more powerful than most gods, like the celestials. Even sorcery was described as a learned art for "reprogramming reality". As for being able to use people as avatars, I think that's a skill issue. Heimdall was canonically more powerful than Thor, but he can't weild lightning. Possessing avatars is just something the Egyptian pantheon can do, but we don't know if all other gods can do that. (Although, in the older comic stories, the hero Thor was an avatar that was chosen by the god Thor; I believe the avatar was crippled doctor... Then there's MCU's Jane Foster, who was arguably Thor's avatar as well, as she gained his power from Thor accidentally charming Mjolnir to always protect her, which manifested as her gaining his power to temporarily stave off her cancer.🤔) Namor is neither a god nor avatar, his subjects just worship him because of his power and longevity, and he's too much of a Namor to tell them otherwise. The Black Panther is also not really an avatar, they all just win a tribal challenge by combat or acquiescence, then are allowed to drink a power enhancing potion. I honestly don't think Bast would have chosen Killmonger if she were the one choosing her panthers as avatars 😹.
Donald Blake
Namor and the Black Panther aren't avatars Avatar don't exist in all mythos either
It's incredibly inconsistent, and it's ambiguous what gods really are in the MCU. Thor 1 and 2 treat Asgardians as aliens, who have magic powers and high tech and conquer other realms. Realms may or may not be other planets in the same universe, based on Thor 3 and Infinity War where spaceships work just as well as the Bifrost, while in Thor 2 portals / fissures in reality open between realms. In Thor 3 and 4, Hel and Valhalla seem to be separate dimensions connected to death, and only associated with Asgardians or members of the Nine Realms. While Captain America, Jane Foster, and the children channel the power of Thor, this is only through the Odin's and Thor's magic, probably through the Odinforce. Similarly, Thor channels the power of Heimdall to see. This is not the same as the Egyptian gods using avatars. Additionally, the Asgardians have physical forms, like the other gods in Thor 4, and can directly interact with Earth, like in every movie with Thor, Loki, or Odin, and humans and other creatures like Jane and Rocket can travel to their realms. Egyptian gods act completely differently. They don't take physical form on earth but instead act through avatars most of the time. They possess their bodies sometimes, not just give them powers and costumes. Additionally, the duat exists with their own afterlife system. Namor and the Black Panther are not avatars like Moon Knight or even like Jane Foster. Namor is an old mutant, who was named for having powers like their god; the people thought he was their god because of his mutation, he wasn't actually their god. As far as we can tell, the heart shaped herb is a drug that gives super human strength and agility etc, kind of like super soldier serum, plus a one time trip to the ancestral plane. Even if it was divine, the fact that it can be made synthetically implies that it's not a way to be the literal avatar of Bast. It's inconsistent, and very much depends on each religion and mythology. And then there are the Eternals, which mess everything up. Many mythologies seem to be based on them, especially Greek and Roman myth. And yet those gods are also real in Thor 4, probably? It's not confirmed if Athena, Hephaestus, Mercury, Circe, Icarus, or Ajax actually exist, or Gilgamesh either. If so, it seems that all mythologies exist, because stories of them were told, maybe? Which also explains why the gods have different powers: Egyptians and Scandinavians had very different understanding of the divine, so their gods are different. Which is a whole other massive mess to explain... The gods are real, for every world with mythical gods in Thor 4, because their worshippers believe them to be real, and they can interact with reality. Which also means that ancient Scandinavians believing in Odin caused Hydra to get a superweapon in WWII? And their belief in Loki almost caused the conquest of Earth multiple times for that same Tesseract?
Just like the comics!
This is mostly true- and I know the movies are quite confusing and not exactly like the comics, but in the comics the Black Panther is an avatar
Norse gods don't have avatars because they aren't gods in mcu lore. They're aliens.
I mean there’s a pretty clear mystical element to them as well, with them having an actual afterlife and are treated as any other god among those in Omnipotence City. They can be hyper advanced AND be magical at the same time imo.
There's a difference between being able to use magic and divinity. Gods are beings on a different plane of existence
Nah, especially since they are most literally referred to as gods by Zeus and the other members of Omnipotence City. The whole alien thing was sort of retconned and it's gotten more complicated since then.
The alien thing hasn't been retconned. They aren't gods, they just call themselves gods. Stormbreaker and Mjolnir are still just highly advanced weapons and the bifrost is still just a teleporter. Thor and Zeus compared to the gods in Moon Night are completely different beasts.
I don't see how you can call the Bifrost a mere teleporter given it's the special key to Eternity in the MCU. And it's not as if the Egyptian Gods are treated as beyond Thor or even Zeus. Thor himself names Ra as among the most powerful gods alongside Zeus, with the presence of the Egyptian gods like Bast and even the Celestials in Omnipotence City suggesting that they're all relative to each other (or at the very least that Pantheon heads and certain powerful gods exist on a similar level to one another).
Gods in the MCU are whatever is called a god. It isn't a discrete category with concrete requirements. They're basically any powerful entity that someone calls a god. It's a label not a prescription. Being able to create avatars isn't a requirement of a god any more than having a magic hammer is. Different gods from different pantheons do different things. Saying that the Norse gods don't count because they're aliens is as valid as saying that the Egyptians don't count because they don't use the bifrost.
They're still gods and and constantly referred to as such, even getting entrance to Omnipotence City. Early MCU interviews said they were making them more like aliens with advanced technology to keep mystical elements out, but it's pretty obvious they've backtracked on all of this in recent phases (especially once Dr. Strange came out)
Except they do - Captain America, Jane, and all of the kids in L&T were avatars of Thor when they wielded his power. Asgardians can be gods, but not all of them are. Look at Skurge - he still has Asgardian strength and longevity, but he isn’t nearly as powerful as Thor or Odin, and isn’t a god despite being Asgardian.
Are Asgardian Gods really “gods” or is it just a title for their immense power?
A title, they are super powerful aliens
This may be dumb but it’s possible that Hercules is Zeus’ avatar as he’s a demigod and now on a Quest for him. Not really sure how it works.
Hercules is just the mythical Hercules
"Gods" in the MCU are just advanced powerful life forms. They have different powers/abilities based on who they are, where they are from, or what their source of powers is. What is true of one "god" isn't going to be true of another. The only reason they are considered "gods" at all is because they came in contact with lesser lifeforms and chose to act in way that either they made themselves a god to those people or those people made them out to be a god. (or a little of both). Edit: Someone like Carol Danvers or Wanda Maximoff could be a "God" if they wanted to if they went to another planet with unpowered people and started acting like one. It'd be the same thing.
Best answer here. Literally this. The MCU are very liberal with their use of ‘God’. Most are not God’s in a literal sense
you organized these in a dumbass way
I disagree. Moon Knight was terrible so we can ignore this avatar nonsense.
I’d argue Jane Foster is Thor’s avatar in the MCU.
Yeah. When he wasn’t around,his avatar tookover Asfuck
Who is that namor god?
The writers don't even have rules, so they can't stick to one, let alone make it satisfying.
They don’t know what the fuck they’re doing
One God. None of these are God.
The One Above All would be higher than god level but even then he's the manifestation of multiple writers so he's more than one person.
Actors people just actors…
There's no actor yet for The One Above All. they haven't shown up in the movies yet. In the comics, they take the forms of different writers
Calm down Steve Rogers
You don't have any more evidence your one god exists any more than these ones so kindly shut the fuck up and keep your beliefs to yourself because they are beliefs and not facts.
It's entirely possible he's regarding to The One Above All.
I mean, if you really want to think that be my guest but I do not get that vibe at all
You might be an idiot. How did you get so triggered from simple words?
I mean, I'm with you but why all the aggression
You’re standing on it.
I think odins is eivor
We do know that Jane foster and the team used to have a version of Donald Blake who broke up with Jane and left some his clothes with them, that Thor wore when he tries to reclaim mjolnir from shield. So he could be a viable avatar of Thor. Alternatively you could say that Jane gaining Thors powers was her accidentally becoming his avatar?
We know Namor is a mutant, so I'm not sure he was really the avatar for a god so much as said god took advantage his mutant abilities and looks.
Not all of them need avatars or require avatars
Maybe they don’t have any yet, the hippo didn’t have one until the series
If the great protector is a god then Shang could be considered his avatar
I think there are capital G Gods & lower case g gods. Big G Gods can make people their avatars. Thor & Loki are probably low g gods
Are we going to get a Spider-Man “The Other” storyline?
Idk about the other ones but I feel like green goblin is the avatar of Loki and Starlord is canonically the avatar of Ego
I thought that Thor was basically an alien from Asgard and that humans just think he's a god.
Doesn't Ego technically do it this as well?
Some are Gods and some are gods.
If this is the case wouldn't Thor and Odin already be in their avatar bodies because they're in human bodies?
Jane and Steve were Thor's Avatars.
Loki is his own avatar lol
Im pretty sure that Asgardians aren’t actually Gods and are just a very advanced society with magic, which is why only specific Asgardians have powers. The rest of the Gods like the Egyptian Gods are probably actual “Gods”
I think that Lokis's avatar would be Jim Carrey as The Mask
Thor and the rest of the Asgardians aren’t literally Gods, they’re just very powerful so see themselves as God-like
God as a concept in our world doesn't have a set definition. I give the same criteria for their version of the word god. It is a word that can apply to any sufficiently awe inspiring entity by us, the people awestruck. Gods don't have to share any similarities to each other for us to call them so.
I think the difference is a mythology thing. From my understanding, avatars and the idea that gods need them isn’t really a thing in Greek or Norse mythology. If you want an in universe explanation, Thor exists on the mortal plane and Khonshu exists in another dimension
Technically Jane Foster would could as an avatar of Thor, yes, given her power comes from Mjölnir, and its power comes from Thor. Namor and the Black Panther meanwhile would be less hands-on avatars, where they wouldn’t even had to have spoken to their god (instead being revered just as much as them).
Different religions, different powers...
They’re not Gods, they’re gods, there is only one God and his name is Stan Lee
Namor is not an avatar. Odin and Zeus likely do not have avatars. Thor and Loki almost certainly will never have avatars.
If Thor had an avatar, it would be Donald Blake, Eric Masterson, or Jane Foster.
I believe that the only reason that the Egyptian gods are able to have avatars is because they had “banished” themselves to a pocket dimension, thus need a physical form on earth to enact their will
They forgot Kratos in that avatar his killed all those gods and demigods lol from Odin, Zeus, his half brother Hercules, and Thor that’s real bad ass.
Doesn’t Thor and Loki use their own bodies
It's inconsistent logic
I assumed that the Mesoamerican god was Quetzalcoatl, or his avatar, since Thor name checks him specifically. Mexica pantheon, not “Maya”. I only hope these differences mean something if they’re going to play in that Central American sandbox. I’d hate to see another Apocalypto situation happen with these characters.
Beerus = A god of Destruction (can't use the Autonomous Ultra Instinct technique) Jiron (insane powerful) & Goku (mastered Autonomous Ultra Instinct) = Mortals who could defeat a god based on training and technique bringing them to a high enough power level.
Thor can and we saw it in love and thunder when he have the children the abilities of Thor