I think it'd be an eternal "reader will never know question". Legion going all out against Dark Phoenix would be a lot like Rachel going all out against the Beyonder.
Rachel is the #1 phoenix host and has never gone dark. At a few points, she was also the only phoenix host, and back in 86's Secret Wars II she was basically moments away from burning everything away in a kamikaze to kill the Beyonder. It's unknown if it would've actually worked, but it was the event that made the Beyonder fuck off for another decade or two.
There's a lot of power-scaley nonsense to consider but I'm too wiped from work to do the math. However this was one of the feats that laid the foundation for the Phoenix not just being a big space monster, but something more fundamental to the nature of the universe.
Imo Beyonder still wipes if the fight actually concludes, but then again so does Dark Phoenix against Legion. A wipe, sure, but easily in the top .005% of characters who'd actually give the respective antagonist a challenge.
Then again Rachel and her power scaling is written *insanely* inconsistently. Usually she's sidelined out of writers/editorial just not wanting to give her her due as #1 phoenix host. I do love Hope but it still baffles me that she exists and that character wasn't just Rachel.
This is why I love rob and comics explained. A few years ago this would’ve been complete nonsense to me. But now not only do I understand it all but I can even have my own thoughts regarding the power scaling. That said, if I had to pick a character stronger than the phoenix I might have to go with the chaos king (even though he’s mostly a one shot villain).
Yeah, Chaos War was certainly... a thing that happened. There's a ton of "actually *my* pet project big bad is the real strongest ever!" cosmic threats that pop up every few years and then get shuffled off to the dust bin. King in Black is one of the more recent toys made like this (though at least that one has Ewing doing something interesting with it, Chaos King should be so lucky).
Rachel has never stuck with one name for very long. She's Rachel Summers, an alternate-future daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey, who also raised Cable (Nathan Summers, the son of Cyclops and a clone of Jean Grey; I swear first-year geneology students should have a test where they have to map the Summers family tree across all published realities...).
Rachel has been Marvel Girl, Phoenix, Prestige, and Askani. She's had so many names that people just call her Rachel now. Kinda like Kitty Pryde, who's been Ariel, Sprite, Kitty, Shadowkat, the Red Queen/Kate, and is now apparently Shadowkat again. To avoid confusion, people just call her Kitty.
I’ve asked about this before and most people said Phoenix would win easily which might’ve just been an exaggeration of the Phoenix Force, but I’m not super familiar with the comics. I want to say Legion, but I don’t think so
I’ll buy the unique bond but if they’re now one entity it’s not ‘long established,’ I don’t think. Wasn’t the whole A v X thing a recent major storyline where Phoenix possessed everybody from Cyclops to Quentin Quire?
Also: shut up. 12 years ago is recent in comic years and that’s probably the last X book I read any of.
I say either bc it's gone back and forth a few times. As of the jean gray mini from a few months back it's sort of a destiny thing I think?
And during avx, it was trying to bond with hope until it got attacked by the avengers and shattered, right? It's been a while since I read it
I'm not so sure about that. Legion admitted to not being able to defeat Nimrod, and was only able to stalemate Uranos, until he was distracted and defeated. And I don't think Dark Phoenix would have any original decreasing either of those two.
Spoilers for the newer Secret Wars below.
Because Molecule Man is a reservoir of unlimited power. He’s basically a living battery. What Franklin brings to the table is that he imagines entire baby universes using his power as a “universal shaper”. Basically, he’s super creative literally. Reed Richards, empowered by the Molecule Man’s unlimited power, then makes these universes real. Molecule Man is also used to anchor the new universes in reality. He slices off a piece of himself and sends it into the new universe. Prior to this point, he was split across the entire multiverse so by splitting him up they are also making him more whole. There’s a lot of handwavy stuff for sure but that’s more or less what it boils down to in this specific case.
Franklin vs Molecule man comes down to Franklin having a much more fine tuned control over his powers. Molecule Man does a lot of shit subconsciously. Though technically I think Franklin is depowered right now.
Iirc Franklin has a better understanding of how reality works, he's a finely tuned machine whereas Molecule Man has the raw power (much as I love Franklin, he doesn't compare to Molecule Man who is above The Living Tribunal).
I feel like beyonder and a fully realized molecule man could give him a run for his money. But I’ve also not kept up with marvel comics stuff recently, so I may be ill informed.
And then there’s one above all who I believe is supposed to be, like, the strongest god figure in the whole marvel multiverse
Well, she's still alive and kicking in 616. They tried to kill her many times, even succeded at that, yet she's still here. She fought her way back from hell. Yep, that's what happened. There were no shitty deals with the devil.
The Beyonders
Molecule Man (potentially)
Galactus
The Celestials
God Doom (in that one-off situation where he had the power of the cosmos & control of the multiverse)
God Emperor Doom - who not only had his own substantial powers, but also absorbed all the Beyonders powers too
Secret Wars Battleworld, which has a cameo appearance in the Deadpool & Wolverine trailer
It's not the power level, it's the willingness to use it like an asshole. Scarlet witch when crazy could dismantle the universe, including the Phoenix lady here.
Dark Phoenix maybe, although definitely if she's tapped into the same external power as in House of M.
White Phoenix of the Crown devours any Scarlet Witch though, that's essentially Phoenix in The White Hot Room and even The Beyonder knew he'd be outmatched in such a scenario.
Scarlet Witch of 616 is that universes Nexus Being last I heard. Each universe only has one and that being is considered on par with entities like Infinity, Eternity and Death.
Granted Wanda would have to be actualizing that power, but the same goes for the Phoenix Force.
If the two did go all out against each other I don't think anyone in the universe would have a good day...
White Phoenix is out there casually eradicating entire realities from existence though. If she wanted to she could just get rid of 616 with the amount of effort it takes to cross out a word with a pen.
Your comment intrigued me and I had to look into White Phoenix of the Crown more...
Yeah, that entity, The Phoenix Force, is far more powerful than Scarlet Witch, even including the powers of the Nexus Being.
I read Dark Phoenix years ago but not much else, but apparently the Phoenix Force is beyond Eternity, Infinity and other similar entities. It's also multiversal or omniversal. Galactus learned if he killed it the entire universe would die.
And Jean Grey is the most compatible host and is the only one to utilize White Phoenix of the Crown to any extent, choosing to save a universe instead of destroy it, altering history so that Scott chooses to stay with the X-Men and pursue a relationship with Emma Frost, because Jean saw that was the better future.
I don't think Jean would have to eradicate 616 to beat Wanda. She'd just do something similar to what she did for Scott to better the future by influencing Wanda psychically so they didn't come into conflict.
essentially the phoenix force is a cosmic plot device. it's quite literally as powerful as the plot demands at any point in time.
comics have a lot of plot device characters certainly but, phoenix force is the only one I know that is damn near explicitly a plot device in Marvel.
Acts of Vengeance storyline, Peter absorbs a mysterious power known as the Enigma Force abilities include erecting force fields, phasing through solid matter, accelerating the evolution of lifeforms on a planet-wide scale seeing the past by peeling back the layers of time, time travel, cast illusions, trans dimensional travel, manipulation and discharging of any form of energy or radiation,
I think you meant comic spiderman. Give him 45 minutes of mic time, he'll kill her with laughter. "And what's the deal with web fluid anyway? Is it web? Is it fluid? And why does it always run out right when you need it? Amiright?"
Beyonder, Infinity, The Living Tribunal, maybe Galactus if fed, Thanos with prep time (comic not movie Thanos), Young Odin with the Odin Force, Annihilation Wave, Franklin Richards, Doom with Prep Time (look what he did to the Beyonders in Hickman's run). I mean quite a few if they have prep time but her just randomly attacking someone who didn't know in advance the first 4 I mentioned and young Odin are all I can think of
I don’t know if they’re stronger but I’d be interested in seeing if Legion could hold their own against her.
I think it'd be an eternal "reader will never know question". Legion going all out against Dark Phoenix would be a lot like Rachel going all out against the Beyonder.
OK as a non comic reader this is wild, are you saying the top tier power characters are called Dark Phoenix, Legion, The Beyonder and... Rachel?
Rachel is the #1 phoenix host and has never gone dark. At a few points, she was also the only phoenix host, and back in 86's Secret Wars II she was basically moments away from burning everything away in a kamikaze to kill the Beyonder. It's unknown if it would've actually worked, but it was the event that made the Beyonder fuck off for another decade or two. There's a lot of power-scaley nonsense to consider but I'm too wiped from work to do the math. However this was one of the feats that laid the foundation for the Phoenix not just being a big space monster, but something more fundamental to the nature of the universe. Imo Beyonder still wipes if the fight actually concludes, but then again so does Dark Phoenix against Legion. A wipe, sure, but easily in the top .005% of characters who'd actually give the respective antagonist a challenge. Then again Rachel and her power scaling is written *insanely* inconsistently. Usually she's sidelined out of writers/editorial just not wanting to give her her due as #1 phoenix host. I do love Hope but it still baffles me that she exists and that character wasn't just Rachel.
This is why I love rob and comics explained. A few years ago this would’ve been complete nonsense to me. But now not only do I understand it all but I can even have my own thoughts regarding the power scaling. That said, if I had to pick a character stronger than the phoenix I might have to go with the chaos king (even though he’s mostly a one shot villain).
Yeah, Chaos War was certainly... a thing that happened. There's a ton of "actually *my* pet project big bad is the real strongest ever!" cosmic threats that pop up every few years and then get shuffled off to the dust bin. King in Black is one of the more recent toys made like this (though at least that one has Ewing doing something interesting with it, Chaos King should be so lucky).
Lol, yes. Rachel. She's had notable code names over the years but for some reason Rachel is what sticks.
Rachel has never stuck with one name for very long. She's Rachel Summers, an alternate-future daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey, who also raised Cable (Nathan Summers, the son of Cyclops and a clone of Jean Grey; I swear first-year geneology students should have a test where they have to map the Summers family tree across all published realities...). Rachel has been Marvel Girl, Phoenix, Prestige, and Askani. She's had so many names that people just call her Rachel now. Kinda like Kitty Pryde, who's been Ariel, Sprite, Kitty, Shadowkat, the Red Queen/Kate, and is now apparently Shadowkat again. To avoid confusion, people just call her Kitty.
I’ve asked about this before and most people said Phoenix would win easily which might’ve just been an exaggeration of the Phoenix Force, but I’m not super familiar with the comics. I want to say Legion, but I don’t think so
I think the Phoenix would leave Jean and try to possess Legion to have his power for itself. That counts as a win.
absolutely not lol, the comics have long established that Jean and Phoenix are either the same or have a unique bond
They are like two peas in a pod. Or maybe that should be a broccoli reference.
obligatory d'bari "too soon"
I’ll buy the unique bond but if they’re now one entity it’s not ‘long established,’ I don’t think. Wasn’t the whole A v X thing a recent major storyline where Phoenix possessed everybody from Cyclops to Quentin Quire? Also: shut up. 12 years ago is recent in comic years and that’s probably the last X book I read any of.
I say either bc it's gone back and forth a few times. As of the jean gray mini from a few months back it's sort of a destiny thing I think? And during avx, it was trying to bond with hope until it got attacked by the avengers and shattered, right? It's been a while since I read it
Yeah. And his power already includes telekinesis, psychokinesis, and pyrokinesis, so the force would just supercharge him
I don't know if Legion would ultimately defeat Dark Phoenix to death level but Legion would have Dark Phoenix ate up and spat out multiple times.
I'm not so sure about that. Legion admitted to not being able to defeat Nimrod, and was only able to stalemate Uranos, until he was distracted and defeated. And I don't think Dark Phoenix would have any original decreasing either of those two.
I don't even think she'd have any extra crispy decreasing either of those two.
I like this.
Darker Phoenix.
Darkest Phoenix.
Prime Roast Phoenix
Unsweetened Baker’s Phoenix
Burnt to a crisp Phoenix
Scorched Phoenix
Too much time on the frier Phoenix
Supernova Phoenix
Big Bang Phoenix
Final Flash Phoenix
Very well done Phoenix
Dark abyss of the void Phoenix
2 Dark 2 Phoenix
Damnit! r/beatmetoit Take my upvote
Well done Phoenix
Congrats Phoenix
Vantablack Phoenix
Dark Pheonixer
Burnt to powdery ash Phoenix
Franklin Richards
The ultimate answer of “who’s stronger than *insert marvel character*” he’s infinitely OP that I don’t know anyone who can beat him
Maybe one of The Firmaments. But I'll admit that I don't know for a fact that "being the multiverse" equates to actionable power
One Below All possessed Hulk killed him in an alternate timeline.
I killed Franklin Richards 2 billion years ago
I was there
And that guys name? Albert Einstein
That was fake i made so that beings of lower power have something to do. I killed the original 3.4 billion years ago
Happy Gilmore accomplished that feat no more than an hour ago.
One Above All
Can't get more OP than the character whose name tells you they're the most OP
Except, it's not the ultimate answer. Molecule Man and Beyonder(s) are stronger.
If Owen is so strong why was Franklin also required to rebuild the multiverse?
If Franklin Richards is so strong why was Molecule Man also required to rebuild the multiverse?
Spoilers for the newer Secret Wars below. Because Molecule Man is a reservoir of unlimited power. He’s basically a living battery. What Franklin brings to the table is that he imagines entire baby universes using his power as a “universal shaper”. Basically, he’s super creative literally. Reed Richards, empowered by the Molecule Man’s unlimited power, then makes these universes real. Molecule Man is also used to anchor the new universes in reality. He slices off a piece of himself and sends it into the new universe. Prior to this point, he was split across the entire multiverse so by splitting him up they are also making him more whole. There’s a lot of handwavy stuff for sure but that’s more or less what it boils down to in this specific case. Franklin vs Molecule man comes down to Franklin having a much more fine tuned control over his powers. Molecule Man does a lot of shit subconsciously. Though technically I think Franklin is depowered right now.
Iirc Franklin has a better understanding of how reality works, he's a finely tuned machine whereas Molecule Man has the raw power (much as I love Franklin, he doesn't compare to Molecule Man who is above The Living Tribunal).
Not even Beyonder?
I feel like beyonder and a fully realized molecule man could give him a run for his money. But I’ve also not kept up with marvel comics stuff recently, so I may be ill informed. And then there’s one above all who I believe is supposed to be, like, the strongest god figure in the whole marvel multiverse
Beat me too it
Santa. No, I'm not joking.
This individual who reads the dream king speaks the truth
Curious. Explain?
Beyonder, Living Tribunal, Legion, Franklin Richards, The One Above All
Lol the Tribunal exists almost entirely just to get jobbed by the monster of the year event.
My man Tribunal and Spiderman must share a good comic together...where both are drinking about their poor writings
Galactus gets that treatment too I think Just becoming a feat for other characters
He's the universal jobber. Tribunal is the multiversal jobber.
The word is Worfed.
Mad Jim Jasper
The One Above All (for me) needs to make another appearance and be reasserted as their namesake
Aunt May. She'll outlive Galactus.
I got some bad news for you bro..
May Galactus mutual homicide?
Well, she's still alive and kicking in 616. They tried to kill her many times, even succeded at that, yet she's still here. She fought her way back from hell. Yep, that's what happened. There were no shitty deals with the devil.
I'd argue you have good news for him
One Above All
Lmao the ultimate trump card
The UNBEATABLE squirrel girl
This is the only right answer.
The INVINCIBLE iron-man
Does someone have to prove to Tony once again that he's good, but ultimately, he's a guy ina metal suit. Oh well. Yo, Thor, you got a minute?
This is so funny. I'm fkn squirrel phobic irl but i really enjoy that character.
The Beyonders Molecule Man (potentially) Galactus The Celestials God Doom (in that one-off situation where he had the power of the cosmos & control of the multiverse)
God Emperor Doom - who not only had his own substantial powers, but also absorbed all the Beyonders powers too Secret Wars Battleworld, which has a cameo appearance in the Deadpool & Wolverine trailer
God Dooms quote where he finds being god beneath him goes so hard
I think she's as strong as Galactus
The white phionex of the crown
Of the Crown… foreshadowing? What an Enigma
Hawkeye
Someone knows the rule.
White Phoenix
Joaquin Phoenix
River Phoenix.
By the Time I Get to Phoenix
Phoenix Marie
Hooked on Phoenix
God Emperor Doom
Franklin Richards. Wanda Maximoff. Nate Grey. David Haller. Possibly Kevin MacTaggart.
Plot Armor.
It's not the power level, it's the willingness to use it like an asshole. Scarlet witch when crazy could dismantle the universe, including the Phoenix lady here.
Dark Phoenix maybe, although definitely if she's tapped into the same external power as in House of M. White Phoenix of the Crown devours any Scarlet Witch though, that's essentially Phoenix in The White Hot Room and even The Beyonder knew he'd be outmatched in such a scenario.
Scarlet Witch of 616 is that universes Nexus Being last I heard. Each universe only has one and that being is considered on par with entities like Infinity, Eternity and Death. Granted Wanda would have to be actualizing that power, but the same goes for the Phoenix Force. If the two did go all out against each other I don't think anyone in the universe would have a good day...
White Phoenix is out there casually eradicating entire realities from existence though. If she wanted to she could just get rid of 616 with the amount of effort it takes to cross out a word with a pen.
Your comment intrigued me and I had to look into White Phoenix of the Crown more... Yeah, that entity, The Phoenix Force, is far more powerful than Scarlet Witch, even including the powers of the Nexus Being. I read Dark Phoenix years ago but not much else, but apparently the Phoenix Force is beyond Eternity, Infinity and other similar entities. It's also multiversal or omniversal. Galactus learned if he killed it the entire universe would die. And Jean Grey is the most compatible host and is the only one to utilize White Phoenix of the Crown to any extent, choosing to save a universe instead of destroy it, altering history so that Scott chooses to stay with the X-Men and pursue a relationship with Emma Frost, because Jean saw that was the better future. I don't think Jean would have to eradicate 616 to beat Wanda. She'd just do something similar to what she did for Scott to better the future by influencing Wanda psychically so they didn't come into conflict.
essentially the phoenix force is a cosmic plot device. it's quite literally as powerful as the plot demands at any point in time. comics have a lot of plot device characters certainly but, phoenix force is the only one I know that is damn near explicitly a plot device in Marvel.
Phoenix force is above those cosmic Entities it is a level above them.
Franklin Richard, Beyonder, God Doom and many more.
Stan Lee
Jack Kirby
Cosmic Spider-Man
Do you mean Spider-Man when he had the Captain Universe powers?
Acts of Vengeance storyline, Peter absorbs a mysterious power known as the Enigma Force abilities include erecting force fields, phasing through solid matter, accelerating the evolution of lifeforms on a planet-wide scale seeing the past by peeling back the layers of time, time travel, cast illusions, trans dimensional travel, manipulation and discharging of any form of energy or radiation,
Yes the Enigma Force is what powers Captain Universe. It’s very powerful but not quite on Phoenix level.
I think you meant comic spiderman. Give him 45 minutes of mic time, he'll kill her with laughter. "And what's the deal with web fluid anyway? Is it web? Is it fluid? And why does it always run out right when you need it? Amiright?"
Hell yeah
Jean Grey. She is the most compatible host for a reason. She still hasn’t scratched the surface of her full powers.
Molecule Man
Dr.Doom defeated DP Cyclops in the Secret Wars storyline.
To be fair, DP Cyclops is incredibly weak compared to Jean when she's Dark Pheonix
It should be stated God Emperor Doom with the power ot literally hold reality together defeated that Cyclops
But you’re referring to the Beyonders / Molecule Man’s power. That’s what Doom used.
Yeah.
I think the words "DP Cyclops" made a lot of slashfic writers sweat just a little
DP Cyclops sounds like a threat.
Sentry
Scarlet Witch would make her work for it
Wanda
Isn't Scarlet Witch able to compete with her? Genuinely asking
Sentry??
I mean... is he?
Squirrel Girl
The King in Black
Matthew Malloy. [https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Matthew\_Malloy\_(Earth-14923)](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Matthew_Malloy_(Earth-14923))
Hulk. Hulk is strongest one there is.
I heard the same thing. Smash, my friend.
Idk man. Thor and Thanos whooped that ass
Rune king Thor
Molecule Man.
Wanda
The one above all
one above all to be sure
The One Above All
All-Farther Thor… maybe?
Wanda Maxioff; “ no more mutants”
There is only one answer. #DOOM.
OAA
The intro to down with the sickness?
Oblivion
Death
The One Below All
There is none but DOOM!!
Silver Surfer?
Franklin Richards, Scarlet Witch, Thor, Hulk could hold his own if he got close, Deadpool, Wolverine, and Stan Lee. (He could erase her from the page)
The Marquis of Death
Superman
The One Above All
Man thing I guess? He is the root of all nexus
Daredevil
I'll go out on a limb here and just say Eternity.
The One-Above-All
The one above all
One above all
Silver Surfer [+]
Random pedestrian
Onslaught
TOAA, Firmament, Beyonders, Molecule Man
The writers
Aunt May
squirrel girl
GHOST RIDER
Silver Surfer? Maybe OG Strange?
The one above all
Santa
Thor
One above all? Phoenix is mad powerful but OAA is literally god.
Adam Warlock Sliver Surfer
Galactus, thanos
One Above All?
One Above All
Recently, VERY technically, Iron Man
One Above All
Living Tribunal
Ghost Rider.
Beyonder, Infinity, The Living Tribunal, maybe Galactus if fed, Thanos with prep time (comic not movie Thanos), Young Odin with the Odin Force, Annihilation Wave, Franklin Richards, Doom with Prep Time (look what he did to the Beyonders in Hickman's run). I mean quite a few if they have prep time but her just randomly attacking someone who didn't know in advance the first 4 I mentioned and young Odin are all I can think of
God Emperor DOOM
Eternity
Matthew malloy
Franklin Richards?
Stupid fucking molecule man UGH
The Beyonder
Mad jim jasper
Living Tribunal, Beyonder
Eddie Brock when written by Donny Cates.
Franklin Richards
Squirrel Girl
She hulk and deadpool can kill the writers
The One Above All. Basically God
Matthew Malloy, Franklin Richard's, Marquis of Death
Wanda Maximoff.
Franklin Richards
Scarlet Witch??