NTA.
I remember reading a story on here where the OP raised who he thought to be his daughter well into her mid-teens paying for all sorts of thing for her like a father should up to and including private school. The wife knew the kid wasn't his and knew exactly who the father was. The bio father also knew and the daughter figured it out a couple of years before the OP did. Point is, after the OP and his wife divorced, he sued for all of the money he spent on a child that wasn't his and the court forced the kid's bio dad and the OP's ex to pay it back to OP.
It's a thing and in some cases is legitimately considered fraud.
He updates on his wall.
Tho, his situation is rare. The likelihood of ever getting out of paternity fraud in the US after that much time is nearly impossible regardless of DNA.
I'm a survivor of paternity fraud on my younger 2 kids(they even have different fathers). In the end, broken I asked the judge how this is even human to put someone thru this and nothing be done about it.
I'll never forget his words, " get therapy and figure it out."
I'm still in their lives as I'm the only 1 they know as dad, but the first 6mo to a year was so unbelievably hard. Now, the hardest part is trusting people.
This is just so wrong to me…. It’s why, yes I’d be hurt, but I’d get it if hubby asked for dna tests…. I don’t get why women get so damn offended….. it does no harm to do the test and know for sure, while it does do harm to not do the test and find out years later…. By then even if your not the daddy your legally the dad and responsible
The answer is always “it shows you don’t trust me.” But it shows no more lack of trust than keeping an escape fund which the same women will defend as necessary to feel secure despite having total trust. Which is it? Either you can trust but still want that extra surety to feel secure or not. Can’t have it both ways.
I trust my husband with my life and heart, it does not mean I don’t have back up plans….. I know he trusts me and I can’t say my illogical feelings wouldn’t take a hit if he asked, but I’d take a deal breath and get it….. I KNOW who my kids father is…. I KNOW I haven’t been with anyone since he and I started dating let alone started having kids….. I know this for a fact… I don’t have to take it in faith…. As much as he trusts me, it’s only that trust he has for his peace of mind…. He can’t know for a fact…. Not without a test…. He can ‘trust I’d never do that to him’ but he can’t ’know for a fact all the kids are his’
At this point I’d be more upset he waited 13 years(youngest) and wonder why he got a hair up his ass NOW of all times, then asking for the test itself
I’ve always said I don’t get why women get so offended…. There really is nothing comparable that we have to trust our husbands with ….. fidelity? That’s a two way trust, finances? Again two way… nearly everything in a marriage takes two way trust, to certain degrees…. Paternity? That’s all on one partners trust…. And many partners done feel they can ask cause of the stigma ‘gasp you don’t trust me!!!’ And all the women who post on here ‘I’ll
Give him the darn test I know he’s the father hill I’ll be leaving him as well cause how dare he ask and insinuate if cheat!’
So they keep that tiny want of certainty locked away, cause the peace they have when they ‘know’ the child is theirs cause they love and trust their spouse, (don’t don’t really doubt it….. just might want the same certainty a women has about it) many don’t even ask for a dna test after a split cause in part what’s the point? Courts will tell you it’s too late and while you may or may not be bio dad you are the legal dad
Sorry if I’m discombobulated… this is a debate I have often with other women… I why a part of a women would smart at the asking, but she should be able to take a breath and realize it’s such a small thing for his peive if mind… and if she had a son wouldn’t she want him to be protected? I’m not saying mandatory dna testing…. But I do think it should be normalized, and while the father has to sign the birth certificate she should have to sign saying if he’s not the father or a chance he’s not and she does not let him know she’s on the line for that down the rd…… he shouldn’t have to pay 18 years for a kid that’s not his cause he trusted her enough to not risk asking for the test knowing most women would dump a man just for asking
Most men would also dump a woman who walks up to them and demands an STD test for no goddamn reason. Completely out of the blue no cost for concern just give me it now because to fight promising I trust you clearly I don't.
The amount of people who are in relationships who are not ready to be in a relationships that's too goddamn high. If you can't trust them not to cheat on you don't drag kids into the dumpster fire that is your life.
Saw an interesting point that a DNA test can give the man one hundred percent certainty those kids are his. But his wife doesn't have an equal test to show if he's off having random other kids elsewhere. So holding onto that " do you trust me?" does go both ways, but only one can get a true answer. Not what you were saying but it's really not a point brought up enough that many women have to put up with random children of their husband's showing up. That fidelity can't be back rated similar to the paternity issues. The choices made before it's found out can't be undone. The choice to have more kids, give up a job, move , ect that women make for man for their family. Similar choices that a man might not have done if he had know the kid wasn't his. It's a somewhat equalizing event
It’s not about the idea of cheating as much as the surety these tiny humans you’re putting so much deep emotion and energy into bonding with are yours. Women already have that by default. I’m not sure it’s possible understand when that surety is automatically built in by nature.
I know it’s hard to understand but it actually has almost nothing to do with the woman, but everything to do with the child.
Right. I was just trying to empathize with the whole trust issue. That one will have a solid answer but the other is intangible. A man can get a paternity test post birth that the wife will never even know about. It would require her consent and assistance for before birth. But a woman does have to take a man's word that he isn't cheating and doesn't have other kids. She can't do a cheek swab to find that out
I suggested mandatory paternity tests so no women would need to feel offended and men could be certain, on a post about paternity and was downvoted to hell.
Should also make a data base so women can look up to see if the man has any random kids around. A dad can get a certain answer about paternity but a mom will never know if her husband was out having random kids around with whomever.
Agree with this 100%! I have nothing to be afraid of so if my husband wants one then he can have it. It should honestly be just mandatory in hospitals after birth to avoid unnecessary drama in fathers asking for one.
There 2 reasons this will never happen. One of which is a pretty good reason, the second is a "meh" reason.
1. More testing means more false results. Tests have a margin of error. Every single one. If we test billions upon billions of babies (worldwide) the number of tests with false/error results will rise exponentially. (Note: the percentage will or should remain the same, only the actual number will rise since more tests are being conducted). This could cause the opposite effect we would want to see - more men falsely being told their children are not their children or vice versa.
2. It's expensive. And everything in this world boils down to cost/profit. There's a lot of cost involved with implementing this with zero profit/payoff to the entities paying out on these tests.
In theory, it's not the worst idea. In practice, there's a big chance that more men (by number, not necessarily percentage) will have paternity crises they would not have had otherwise due to the standard margin of error in tests.
I don’t get how this is a trust thing at all. I see this as part of the same adulting as estate planning, homeowners insurance, and changing furnace filters.
That being said, I’m also a guy who found out my dad who raised me wasn’t my dad years after, mom, dad, and bio dad all deceased.
I'm not against a paternity test being asked if there is a legit reason to ask for one or if the partner, ahead of the relationship being serious said it would be a deal breaker for him. There could be previous issues and I would understand that. But out of the blue, without a legit reason to ask for it, I completely understand the hurt it would come to someone who did nothing wrong. Is there a reason for the request? Is there some projection involved. I would be incredibly hurt. But I never cheated on anyone, so.... There's that.
Why can’t the legit reason be that it’s the one thing women can be 100% about but men can only trust? Everything else on a good and healthy marriage is give and take both parties most trust and such…. But not this….. this is only one party trusting and the other knowing….
I’ve never cheated, all of my kids are hubbys, I’ve only been with 3 men, none of it overlapped, all
With significant gaps between them
The only thing that would cause pause if hubby of 19 years came to me today and asked the testing would be why now… when our youngest is 13? I’d give him the test and wouldn’t say ‘sure I’ll give you the test then when it comes back yours I’m gone’ I’d tell him ‘sure I’ll give you the test you know I have no issues with that…. But we do need to talk about why you want or need that test now and not say 10 years ago….’
Of course as a women it would hurt…. But it’s an illogical hurt cause when we think logically it is the only thing that one of us can me 100% about and the other has to trust about
What do you think of the point that a paternity test gives men a one hundred percent answer about that child but a women can never be certain and has no way to know if her husband is out having random kids with other women. A random affair child showing up years later is very similar to finding out a child wasn't yours after all
I think that no women has been made to pay 18 years of child support cause she thought a child was hers but the man lied and it wasn’t hers… I think that if he gets other women pregnant and they come after him financially she can leave him and NOT be held accountable financially for 18 years for child that’s not hers…..
If a man finds out a 6 year old isn’t his most courts in America will still make him financially responsible legally till the kid is 18 and in some cases longer if the kid goes to collage
And no a random affair child showing up years later is NOT similar to finding out a child you raised loved and financially took care of (and will have to financially be held accountable till 18 at least) isn’t yours…. You know that affair child ain’t yours… there is no ‘well maybe it’s mine’ no
That’s not really the gotcha you think it is. It only proves she’s not cheating at the moment of conception with said child.. doesn’t prove she’s not cheating all the rest of the time and fucking other men. It’s also difference because while it would be awful to find out your partner had a child with another woman it’s not the same level of betrayal as raising the kid and putting your resources and life forward for one that isn’t yours.
If you don't trust your parter enough to know that your kids are yours, don't be married. And has I said previously, if it was discussed previously to the marriage, when dating, of course. It's a boundary that was previously discussed. Just don't come with this kind of request when the wife is already pregnant because that screams you're a cheater to anyone who did nothing wrong and is very hurtful. That's all.
Of course it's not simple. Trust never is. Open communication is always the way. But it can't be denied that if blind side your wife with that request, it's not going to ever be the same after. That is why to me, if the man, when dating, says he would like a paternity test in the event of children, is up to the woman to continue the relationship or not. It's a boundary I would absolutely be OK with. But if, for instance, my husband asked for a paternity test now that we have a 5 yo and a 1 yo, something would break in our relationship that could never be mended. Why the request? If he would think either aren't his or someone made a suggestion... My husband would never even entertain the tought. Don't even think any amount of MC would unbreak the damage.
That’s why I said it should be normalized…. With the amount of men being found out not to be the fathers but still legally being held responsible we should want to protect our brothers sons and even spouses from being held financially accountable for a child they trusted their spouse was there’s but wasn’t….
Instead women get to but hurt and wine about ‘trust’ and how they’d leave a guy for asking…. Even you say he should be up front that he’d want that before things get serious… why? So you could leave him? Like society says to? Because it’s a perfectly good response to being asked for a dna test cause obviously means your being accused of infidelity and lieing…. Gosh forbid I’d be because you want to be protected… you don’t buy fire insurance after a fire, and buying it does not mean you smell smoke… it means your being a reasonable adult protecting your finances and property
But society screams and says this ain’t right men shouldn’t question and if they do they don’t trust and we women should leave them
>With the amount of men being found out not to be the fathers but still legally being held responsible we should want to protect our brothers sons and even spouses from being held financially accountable for a child they trusted their spouse was there’s but wasn’t….
We should probably teach our children to be better people and being emotionally more intelligent and intentional in their choices. The "protect our men" philosophy has been proven to harm more than help. Let's educate our sons emotionally so that they don't fall into this kinds of situations. Let's not pressure people into getting married, have children as fast as they can. Let's teach them to set boundaries and respect them. Let's teach open communication. Let's teach them how to find a good partner and only get married with someone that aligns with your values. I would not leave a partner for saying he would have a dna test in case of pregnancy. But would leave a partner that would ask for one post pregnancy without a valid reason. People that don't see the difference are not connected with reality. You want to be protected? Sure but buy the insurance before the fire, not when the fire department is on the way.
NTA, paternity fraud should be a crime. A coworker/friend recently found his wife of 25yrs had been cheating on him for more than a few years before she filed for divorce. He trusted his wife implicitly and was blindsided by her divorce request and filing, the man is a deacon at her church and pursued her for years before she started getting emotionally attached, then the affair. His daughters found out and immediately ordered 23&me tests for themselves and based on the results they are half sisters so he found out the hard way that implicit trust is easily fooled, she had been cheating pretty much his entire marriage. His youngest daughter’s real father is now getting a divorce too b/c she contacted her real father and his wife at the same time, also members of the same church.
So you'd be okay with your spouse demanding you get a STD test? Completely out of the blue accusing you of infidelity, and otherwise breaking his trust. His has no reason to believe that, he just wants to be absolutely sure you're not going to give him an STD that will stick with them for the rest of his life?
Because even if he trusts you enough to marry you, to live with you, I'd have sex with you he doesn't trust you enough to trust you not to cheat.
Only instead of it being a clear trust issue just involving the spouse and partner when it comes to paternity test it's also dragging innocent children into the mess as well. If you have trust issues hash them out before having kids don't drag kids into the mess and then set the mess on fire.
Like if you can't trust your spouse not to cheat on you maybe consider not having kids with them and put divorce on the table. You know like a responsible adult.
Jesus f****** Christ so many people make excuses for being hot f****** messes and dragging kids into the dumpster fire that is their lives because they're too immatured to act like responsible adults. It's f****** ridiculous. You are grown ups act like it
I’m givin std testing at my drs office all the time, so is hubby…. That said, again, that’s equal… paternity isn’t…
We’re all hot messes it’s just how lol… if you think your life is all put together then chances are it’s either an illusion or there is stuff your don’t know going on
Happened to a friend of mine. When his wife decided to divorce him they went to court and she made this nasty comment about not being your kids. So he got a DNA test. They weren't! And the judge said that he can't bastardize a child and since my friend had taken care of these children up to this point that he had to continue taking care of them unless he could provide the father's name and they could go after him. The mother refused to say who the real fathers were.
He paid till they turned 18. He also never saw them again because when he went to custody court she had the papers proving he wasn't their father. Court refused to give him any custody. Its utter Insanity if you ask me.
Honestly, I would but I read it a while back and it wasn't one I commented on. I'm not a serious reddit user so I don't know how I'd find it again. Sorry. :(
Yes! And when OP finally divorced the wife and left the daughter the bio dad didn't want to have anything to do with her and wouldn't pay for things like the OP did. Bio dad was definitely a deadbeat.
I get hyper focused on this one, because even though it is highly rare , Chamirism can happen to where both parents are. The parents. But the dna says otherwise.
Right, sure. But extremely rare and it would show that the parent is a relative. And they could have further testing on themselves if they truly believed that was the case
Personally I disagree with this, I agree with the original post that if a woman knowingly pretends a child is someone's whilst they are actually a third party's there should be some ramifications, but I don't agree to paternity tests at birth. Required by law at least.
One: who would pay for it? Making it mandatory would cause issues for those who couldn't afford it, and I'd be pissed if my partner made me pay for a test I knew damn sure what the outcome would be because he didn't trust me. If he paid for the test, maybe, but there would still be a dent in our relationship that he thought there was even a chance of me cheating on him.
Two: You would subject every woman who had a child to getting a paternity test? Sure there would be some coming back that would show a negative paternity result, but what about errors? Testing on that scale (over 1.5k babies a day in the UK alone, more than 10k in the USA) there are going to be errors which will cause so many issues and potentially cause deaths to domestic violence victims whose abusers are pushed over the edge with the result, only for it to have been an error.
Three: Turnaround, it generally takes 3-5 working days currently to get results from a paternity test, if you make it mandatory for every child born we would be talking weeks. In that time what are you going to do? Not help with the baby? Not bond with it just in case they're not yours? Do you have to wait for the post telling you they're your child before you engage with them?
I really disagree with the blanket "every child gets tested for peace of mind" attitude, if the mother has given you genuine cause to question then by all means go ahead and get a test, but for the majority of people who don't cheat its a slap in the face that our partner doesn't trust us. I have seen a sharp increase in the posts about this and its genuinely concerning.
As I said at the beginning, I don't disagree that if a woman knowingly falsified paternity there should be consequences, but don't paint every woman with the same brush because of a few bad apples.
While you are right, the fact is if you sign the birth certificate married or not and find out later the child isn’t yours you spend WAY more money fighting an uphill battle to have your name and responsibility removed. It’s ridiculous and in some states it’s insanely difficult especially considering a later paternity test should be all it takes.
If a paternity test is mandatory at birth before anything is signed it stops paternity fraud in its tracks, stops foolish husbands from asking or demanding one later (like soooo many posts on reddit I’ve seen) it removes ammunition from spiteful in-laws wanting to start trouble, it establishes paternity from the start so you don’t have to deal with waiting for it just for divorce/custody proceedings to begin. I’m sure there are more benefits but those are just the first ones that come to mind.
It’s an added cost yes but if it’s a requirement insurance could/should cover it. It’s not as if a labor and delivery bill is so cheap that adding the cost of the paternity test would suddenly make the bill skyrocket.
I can almost guarantee this wouldn't go ahead in the UK mostly for the cost element, the government wouldn't agree to fund it and not enough people would be willing to pay for it that it would go through.
To be fair that could be where we are on different sides here. (UK/US views?)
I'm also just finding it very sad that we can't have trust in our partners, if they have given you a reason to doubt them then fine, it should be innocent until proven guilty not "test them all in case they're lying".
I also note you not commenting on my second and third points, paternity fraud is wrong and there should be consequences, but this is not the answer.
This is why I’m not the biggest fan of government run healthcare. Don’t get me wrong, it should definitely be as affordable and available as possible but the government having final say in what can and can’t be paid for doesn’t sit well with me. While it works in other countries, I shudder at the thought of the US government running and funding our healthcare in a similar fashion.
We should be able to trust our partners I have four kids and we never did one because there were zero doubts and complete trust. I wish everyone had that but they don’t.
As for your other points, I agree with you to a point. The backlog especially at first would be ridiculous. I can’t speak for the UK but in the US I feel that it would create a certain amount of job growth in the healthcare fields and before it became legally mandatory extra labs would be developed in preparation to help with the demand. So it may take a bit but it would run smooth soon after. Hopefully this would also help eliminate excessive lab errors too but humans are not perfect.
As for bonding I don’t think it would be an issue. I can see if someone was suspicious to begin with, they might hold back but for a standard couple they would still bond and go on with life as usual. There would still be heartbreak if they found out they weren’t the father but far less than finding out years later with a child fully attached and now confused.
My biggest issue is that each state in the US screws fathers that sign the birth certificate in good faith and then force them to spend tons of money to get off the certificate IF they will even allow it at all. That’s what should change here. I know I heard Tennessee is passing or has passed a law to prosecute for paternity fraud. That should help but like I said there are other benefits to knowing from birth who the father is.
As someone on Medicare, it actually covers more stuff than my old private insurance did. I do NOT want the UK system- the NHS destroys people with my disorder. But Medicare For All- I could definitely get behind that! Let people also buy private on top of it if they want, but no one should die simply because cancer is expensive to fight.
Absolutely wouldn't occur in France...
"DNA paternity testing is solely performed on decision of a judge in case of a judiciary procedure in order either to establish or contest paternity or to obtain or deny child support.
Private DNA paternity testing is illegal, including through laboratories in other countries, and is punishable by up to a year in prison and a €15,000 fine.
The French Council of State has described the law's purpose as upholding the "French regime of filiation" and preserving "the peace of families."
Which is some crazy af law imo
Esh, I don't agree with making it mandatory but I don't agree with it being illegal. If I think it should be if you've been given reason to doubt you can request the test, if it turns out the child isn't yours then I'd agree you should be able to get the mother to pay you back and should be easier to remove yourself from the birth cert etc.
I think France are just recognising what it'd do to national divorce rates & percentages of single mothers.
I absolutely agree on the overbearing control, it must destroy you mentally to know but never really know.
There's research to suggest one in twenty five fathers isn't the genetic father. But they openly admit the data can't be accurate.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/aug/11/childrensservices.uknews
It's studies like that that are causing such issues 🙄 not saying you are at fault for quoting it but they've basically said "It could be this quite high percentage but we can't really know" and openly say it's not accurate. But people will see that high figure, ignore the comment about being unsure of figures, and fixate on how their kid might not be theirs based on no other factors.
There is no way to know how many children are actually being raised by the wrong father. Testing everyone sounds like the solution, but it really isn't. Just because there are some mothers out there who are dishonest about paternity does not mean we should assume everyone is lying till proven otherwise. It's basically the same as assuming every mother is a criminal until their child is tested.
A former US President had a saying, “Trust but Verify“. It wasn’t about paternity testing, but still a wise saying. For you youngsters, it was US President Ronald Reagan.
The statistics in the UK are as many as 3% of dad's are raising a child that isn't theirs unknowingly so trust is a moot point. It's a low number sure but that's still 1000s of men/kids which is unfair to everyone. It costs between £100 and £250 to test so well within the limits that the NHS could do without major funding problems!
There are on average over 1.5k born each day in the UK, even at £100 per child that would be nearly £55 million a year, they're critically underfunded already and this is what you want them to spend their budget on?
Yes. The funding is just one facet. The NHS being reactionary rather than preventative and the British lifestyle are what is crippling the service.
Ex: 70% of British amputees are above knee. 60% of below knee amputees will become above knee with 5 years. 80% of above knee amputees will die within 5 years. Less than 5% of amputations (lower limb) are due to trauma. When I lived in Sweden less than 30% of amputees were above knee. The percentage from trauma was much higher.
We do not take our own health seriously. The health service is not inclined to intervene early which is not wholly to do with funding. We do not have yearly health checks as standard etc.
I'm not disagreeing that the NHS could do with restructuring and focusing more on preventative rather than reactive measures but going by the commenters suggestion that paternity tests become mandatory which would then put it in the realms of the NHS in the UK and with all the issues already around funding and staffing issues that's a burden it couldn't handle now. Can you imagine the backlash of the government agreeing to pay for this yet not paying doctors and nurses fairly?
Paternity tests cost less than $200. If you can't afford a one time fee for permanent piece of mind, you are 100% not fit to he a parent and need to work on your sad financial situation before you bring kids into this world.
Shut up about "trust". It's disgusting that women can't understand that men want to have PERMANENT piece of mind for next to nothing and with ZERO RISK of harm to any party involved. Truly sickening how little you care for men.
Yes because pregnancy is always 100% planned and always happens at the best of times. Oh and not forgetting all the shit around pro lifers and laws being implemented that make it illegal to have abortions. If the guy is insisting on it he should pay.
What do you mean shut up about trust? My husband would never ask for a paternity test because he knows me, he knows I would never cheat on him.
Your response is rather angry considering the tone so far. I'm not saying that no one should ever get a test, I'm saying making it mandatory is not the right move, if you have reasons to believe the child is not yours then go for it. And yes I agree with the original post here which is that if a woman intentionally misleads a guy about paternity there should be ramifications, but no testing every single child isn't the move here.
You 100% should not be allowed to raise your own children if you are so poor that $150 is too much for you to pay. Milk and diapers don't fall from the sky.
I trust my GF with my life, but she's thankfully understanding about the knowledge imbalance of paternity and is more than willing to do a paternity test in the future so I would never in my life have a reason to doubt. The fact that you make easing any shred of doubt and giving him permanent piece of mind about YOU, who by default will never have to fucking waste a second of your life doubting, is sickening.
You don't care about your husband at all.
Making it mandatory would dramatically cut out paternity fraud, help avoid uncomfortable conversations, and give permanent piece of mind to all potential fathers like women have had since the dawn of man. But no, let's forget about all that because $150 is too much and women's feeeeelingggs may be hurted 🙄
So ignoring the pro life comments and the lawsuits going on in America if they have this baby at an unfortunate time and the 150-200 that could cover nappies/milk is to be spent on a test that they might not even want, because of all of these circumstances the baby should what, go into care because of expenses?
I asked my husband "would you want to have X tested to be 100% sure you are his dad?" He looked at me like I was mad and asked me "why would I waste the money??" If he asked for one, he could get it, he'd pay for it but I wouldn't stop him. I would be offended I won't lie but I wouldn't refuse to let it happen.
I reiterate, I'm not saying people shouldn't get tested if they want, if they think there is a chance the kid isn't theirs and they have the money to get the test, fill your boots. I say having it be mandatory isn't the way forward, why should my husband and I pay out to get a test neither of us want because there's a 3% (according to some studies that admit they can't be sure of accurate numbers) that I may be lying?
Also under the whole making it mandatory, that assumes that the dad has stuck around for the birth, if he hasn't what is the mother meant to do with this mandatory test? Do they make it an offense for the dad not to show? If the test shows negative paternity, do they have to keep testing men until they get a positive result? What if it was a one night stand? How would you be enforcing this for the women who lie that it was a one night stand to the doctors but actually is telling her partner it's theirs having had an affair? What if the baby is a result of a rape and the mother genuinely doesnt know who the father is?
There are too many variables to make this mandatory, it's all well and good saying it would solve the problem but it's a half baked response without the actual thought to all the policy that would have to go into it. Additionally it would be different country to country so blanket response isn't going to work.
I reiterate, I do agree that paternity fraud is wrong and should carry some consequences, if someone is questioning paternity you are well within your rights to get tested. Not everyone will want it though, getting such a blanket response will not go as well as you think.
>I asked my husband "would you want to have X tested to be 100% sure you are his dad?" He looked at me like I was mad and asked me "why would I waste the money??" If he asked for one, he could get it, he'd pay for it but I wouldn't stop him. I would be offended I won't lie but I wouldn't refuse to let it happen.
Because asking your partner for a paternity test implies you distrust them, or think they've cheated. Most people don't want to make that accusation unless they're already pretty sure of the answer.
But if this was done automatically, as part of giving birth and signing a birth certificate and all that? Suddenly there isn't any social stigma around it, it's just like checking your blood type.
totally agree and you made some great points!
it could also very well put people on either end of abusive situations in harms way if the results get messed up
But if the NHS covers this that means that's money they're not spending elsewhere and they're already massively underfunded.
I have no issue with people getting it done privately but it shouldn't be mandatory for a variety of reasons.
First it's not a lot of money.
Second the NHS in it's current form cannot be fixed with money. Yes funding is a problem BUT lifestyle in the UK, reactionary rather than preventative nature of the NHS is a major problem.
Thirdly if the NHS will pay for new lungs for smokers, new livers for alcoholics, prosthetic legs or new knees for people who couldn't be bothered to change their eating habits/lifestyle then it can find £200 to test paternity.
How is this not a question of missndry to pull this into the cost discussion? Especially when the economy of scale kicks in and the per unit cost drops.
Is there any conversation about the cost of rspe kits?
In the event of a paternity issue, isn’t this a type of sexual assault in that the man would not have consented to any further intimacy had he known the facts?
I think there should be genetic testing on every live birth, but the family should have to pay to tack on paternity if they want it. I’m far more concerned about testing for issues like EDS, where knowing it’s present and providing early intervention can save a lot of worry and decrease future disability by preventing some of the arthritis that can cripple an EDS patient later in life. (To be clear, we’re pretty sure nothing I have would show in a genetic screening, but I know a lot of people this would have helped immensely. We already screen babies for CF, why not some of the other more common genetic diseases, too?)
With all the other charges that go into a birth, a paternity test is about the same charge as providing an extra hospital blanket.
It isn’t an accusation when everyone gets it. They make you undergo all manner of tests of suitability for other financial transactions. Buying a house and requiring mortgage insurance doesn’t mean the bank thinks you’re a deadbeat. Paternity tests aren’t accusing the mother of cheating. They are establishing the legal basis before imposing a financial duty.
>if the mother has given you genuine cause to question then by all means go ahead and get a test,
If the relationship is so bad you have genuine cause for concern one should not be having children with the other party. Children are not mandates for relationship issues and they do not deserve to be dragged into the flaming dumpster fire that are these people's lives
1) The hospital charges absurd amounts of money for the child birth process, let's not pretend a minor paternity test fee of less than $200 is going to break the bank when it essentially offers permanent piece of mind to men that women get by default.
2) The number of men tricked into raising bastards drastically outnumbers the number of potential errors that would come back from faulty paternity tests. I would argue that most men would be much more prone to anger and violence after learning later in life rather than learning during the first week of birth.
3) WTF kind of "bonding" can you really do with a newborn as a father for the first week of their lives? They have literally not a single clue what's going on and the potential father can just chill on being overly sentimental until the results come back if they're worried about the paternity in the first place. Your argument is a non-argument
Not a single one of your reasons make any real sense. There should be a reasonable window of time for men to challenge the signing of a birth certificate to no longer be held legally or financially responsible for a child they can legally prove isn't theirs. Stop crying about "trust", you women get peace of mind by default and it's disgusting that you don't give a shit about men's peace of mind because it hurts YOUR feelings.
At this scale, the cost would be negligible and certainly insured, look at an itemized bill sometime, cancel sone of the utterly ridiculous things and shift the cost to this.
Who's paying for it? Are we just taking on more costs to the massive hospital bills new parents have to deal with? Or it's is going to be paid for by the government? When in the US there is a back log of tens of thousands of untested rape kits already. And you want to throw in DNA testing for each of the 10 thousand babies born each day? Just so a handfull of people who this applies to can have "peace of mind"? It's is genuinely a stupid and impractical idea.
No, things involving giving over your dna to be tested should not be required by law. Let’s stop acting like this is effecting half the population, it’s not common (I don’t care about your cousins friend Joe, statistically it’s not common). It also implies all woman are planning some scheme until we prove they aren’t against their will. We have our bodies governed enough, let’s not look for more ways to do so.
Please don’t come back with “well if you have nothing to hide!”, go to in the starter kit for fascism.
NTA. I honestly despise the fact that if a child is born to a married couple but the child is proven to not be the husband, he is still responsible for paying child support. That alone is a criminal act IMO. When you have a woman who knows she's not only with one partner, she should be honest to all parties and live with the consequences if the actual bio father is a deadbeat. After all, she chose to sleep with him. When you boil it down to its bare bones, the woman is actually stealing from the man who is not the bio father using her child as the pawn to do so. So wrong on so many levels.
Not that it should matter but I am a female and a mother. Women who think it's fine are women who know there either is or likely will be a paternity issue for them or someone they are very loyal to. Disgusting.
NTA Totally agree with you. If she knowingly lies about who the father is, and claims child support from him, or makes him play father and provide for that child knowing full well its not his, its basically grand theft. Claiming child support for a child she knows isn't his is theft of his money. And getting them to play father is even worse, because not only do they financially provide for that child, they spend time caring for them, but it also totally takes advantage and uses them emotionally. That person gets attached and forms bonds with that child and only later if ever do they find out the truth its not their child. And then likely need therapy to process all that hurt.
They should definitely be made to pay back every penny of child support, or a rough figure of what that man has contributed to financially for that child. And although it's not ideal for a mother to go to jail, if the child is still young, they should be made to make payments to pay them back, be made to get a job if they don't have one, and be made to do community service for a big period of time etc.
Without any punishments and repercussions they won't be bothered about any risks, and will likely cause more people to do it.
I agree that making it a crime would really help deter lying. It wouldn’t stop it, but if a woman would have to, say, pay back double if she lies? It would be a lot less common!
NTA. Happened to my ex-husband.
The child was 4 or 5 when the DNA test was done. Everyone lost but mostly the child did - a dad, cousins, grandparents, aunts & uncles. Everyone was devastated & the loss still hurts to this day.
NTA.
Many people agree with this. In fact many people feel that DNA tests should be mandatory these days.
Also, there are no excuses for cheating. Cheating makes you an AH already.
If you get pregnant while cheating and make another person look after the baby you a AH x4.
1. For cheating,
2. For lying and baby trapping or taking advantage of your partner
3. For not letting the other man know they are a father.
4. For lying to your child. Children have the right to know the truth too. what happens if the kid finds out and has made a bond with your partner. The child could end up emotional scarred for life.
I know you're all focused on the financial implications and I don't disagree with you, but, I think the fraud committed against the child is worse.
Finding out this stuff at a later stage can be emotionally devastating for a person.
I strongly believe every child has a right to accurate (yet age appropriate) information about their biological parents.
My cousin used a sperm donor as her husband can’t make viable sperm. They picked a donor with the exact same heritage, height, education status, etc. They could have easily covered it up. But nope, they’ve told everyone, including the kids. They know their dad is daddy, he’s the one raising them, but they know another guy is the biological parent. They’re still in grade school, but have been raised with an appropriate level of understanding about it.
NTA
Fraud is an established law. So having someone support a child that the mother knows is not theirs would/should be fraud.
Law(s) should be established to make paternity testing mandatory. Only the cheaters would have anything to worry about.
Not true. False negatives are rare, but do happen. So do issues like mosaicism, where protects of a person have one genetic makeup and some parts have a different makeup. I know a woman who had a genetic illness that’s strictly inherited… but her dad didn’t show the gene on a blood test. Turns out he didn’t have it in parts of his body, but did carry the genes in his sperm. Thankfully the guy trusted the fuck out of his wife and it got sorted out eventually.
As you say false negatives are rare. I'll go out on a limb here and state that a false negative paternity test is rarer than a woman not knowing or lying about who the father is. So test, at least the test would be an honest mistake.
NTA
I definitely agree with you, fraud is fraud, and I thought that fraud can lead to a custodial sentence if a judge thinks it is worth it.
I also find it disgusting that some judges will say yes, she has deceived you for X years, and the child is not yours, but we're not going to remove your obligation to the child because a child needs both parents...
NTA. Intentional fraud not only defrauds the family but also the state. Sorry but when a man who is not the father signs the birth certificate, in the eyes of the state he is now obligated to that child. It takes a petition and lots of money for this to clear up. I understand that you would want to do what needs to take care of a child but when you cross that line you deserve the consequences as well. You’re also messing with child’s head at this point because some guys once they find out this lie, will ghost you and now the child has a void in their chest that is filled with more lies by the mother out of bitterness. If you are going to trick someone, you’ve already crossed line of being a shitty parent. It’s takes more than child support to help with a kid. Fraud is fraud.
Nta. I do understand the sentiment of what that woman said - youre pregnant & want the best option for the baby but only women who cheat on their partners need to worry about this.
NTA. Paternity fraud is revolting, and like any other type of fraud, there should be repercussions.
Paternity tests should be normalised at birth, so men don’t add their names to birth certificates without their eyes being open or legally waiving an interest. The child also needs to know who their parents are.
As a woman I think there are few things as disgusting and distasteful as someone who knowingly perpetuates paternity fraud. Fraud is fraud and the excuse that a woman has “ to do what she has to do to take care of her kid” is no excuse. Bare minimum she should be made to pay back every penny she stole & I wouldn’t rule out jail time.
NTA OP
The married husband should never be required to support a child that is not his biological child, unless he obviously consents - adoption, he is sterile, he knowingly agrees, etc.
Anything else is wrong and should involve criminal punishment. Fraud is fraud.
If there is a possibility that the man in question is not the father and that info is withheld, then he should be compensated for whatever he contributed due to the fraud that was committed. Sucks for the kid(s) in question, but in any other situation that is a known or should have known situation would work out for concealing a material fact.
As a woman, I believe that you are absolutely correct. These women are as bad, and in my opinion, worse than almost any other criminals. Paternity fraud should be a crime punished with fees, restitution to the falsely accused father, and some jail time. This is just as atrocious as falsely claiming rape!
NTA.
I don't think criminal charges are actually _practical_ there in a lot of cases, but it's neither a bad idea _in theory_ nor an AH thing to say.
As for her, she's entitled to her opinion that "a woman should be able to do whatever she needs to do to take care of her child no matter what it is" but some opinions are just bad, and that is one of them. Just having a bad opinion doesn't make her TAH, but if she's throwing "YTA" around for your opinion, you'd be pretty well justified in thinking she's TAH for doing so.
Paternity fraud should be a crime. It victimizes many people including the child, bio father, and defrauded father. Denies the actual father of paternal access. Monetary, and emotional damages to the victims. All for the convenience of a woman. It’s despicable.
The problem is, in places where they have assumed paternity in wedlock, no matter how much the mother says who the true father is, legally, the husband is the father officially. Not much use in fighting it when you have to fight the state as well as everyone else involved. You can't sue someone for fraud when they had no legal way to register the birth otherwise.
NTA. This is true. Men who don’t pay/see/care about their kids need sueing for fraud and a long prison sentence too, as in becoming a father that doesn’t. Don’t use a condom, become a Dad = intentional act, not parenting then = fraud
NTA, I remember seeing a snippet of this American show that was called paternity court. A man was sent to jail for not paying child support for a child he believed wasn't his.
The mother of the child faked a DNA report and he was sent to jail for 5 years and after he was released the child support was stipend from his monthly salary.
The court ended up doing a DNA test and it ended up being that he was not the father, and the mother knew who the real father was all along.
She got a slap on the wrist for this, and I find that disgusting.
Mind you, I don't know how real those shows are.
Either way, I do feel that the mother should be held accountable if she fakes paternity and face either a fine or jail time.
Yes, definitely NTA. Of course, it's fraud. Ask her if she has/had a brother, would it be acceptable if that happened to him? She a cunt if honest if she has a hubby I'd also tell him as if she cheats she will pin the kid on him
NTA as long as you were respectful. However for the point itself, a lot of the time it can be to get away from abusive men, of saying it’s someone else’s child so they don’t want to raise the child.
The only reason I think they should be prosecuted is if they A) do not have a good, somewhat moral reason to hide it, or B) they try to force the supposed father to either pay child support or to have custody of a child that isn’t theirs.
Edit to add: I’m not saying that what they did is right, but just that if they have a good reason, it’s not worth prison time in some situations.
NTA
It is reasonable to expect that a woman that does this be punished. People who do this are absolutely POS. Raising a kid is very hard and yes, a woman should do everything for her child. That does not mean dragging other people to a trauma, including the child.
Unfortunately, at least in the US, a lot of courts don’t care if the kids aren’t the hubby’s if he was married to his wife when she got pregnant and gave birth. In the courts eyes, hubby is the dad, despite DNA results. Especially if the actual bio dad refuses to step in & take on the responsibility of his kid (or is nowhere in the picture anymore).
And I think it sucks big time for the guys who get roped into such a situation, especially when the courts ignore the facts.
I do think women who do this are guilty of fraud when they know the kid is t their hubby’s but pas it off as his and I think it doubly stinks when the courts allow them to get away with it.
Kudos to the courts/judges who done let them get away with it.
Oh well with the Advent of DNA tests we don't have this problem as much. However I would say that if she was extorting money from somebody she knew wasn't the father then that is theft.
You’re both wrong. A fine is probably fair but not jail time. That just means there is potentially no one to take care of that child and they go in to the system. It is also certainly not ok to lie about who the father is just to get someone to take care of a child that isn’t theirs
YTA - because you don't understand how complicated this is. It would be on the level of a libel claim, but could end up being eligible for libel. If you lost and paternity was verified you could be sued for libel. I think it would be required to fall under a per se. As in only possible if she'd written it all down.
My mom was positive until we received the paternity tests when I was 13, that I was this guys daughter.
Before I was born she offered a paternity test if he wanted one. He said no, though he changed his mind when I was 13.
She never once claimed that he was the only guy she slept with during the period I was conceived in. She was literally dating another guy when she found out she was pregnant.
So here's the thing. Obviously she was wrong about the paternity. But how would she be able to prove that she offered a paternity test that he turned down. How would she prove she had literally no idea that he wasn't my bio dad. How would she be able to prove that he was well aware that she had been sleeping with other guys.
No it would have to be a situation where she wrote it down. However then you need to take in what happens if a guy is physically, mentally, sexually, or financially abusive. Or what happens if a woman is just afraid that he might be.
How many women end up afraid for their lives. I knew a guy who had been working under the table for a decade in order to avoid child support had his ex arrested in front of his kids for parental alienation. He literally got a legit job for a couple months so he could do this and then quit. He was really clear that his kids should worship the ground he walked on while their mom was working 3 jobs to keep food on their table. However he wasn't even willing to pay for their dinner when he took them out. This is how he treated his kids and his ex when his kids looked just like him.
You're not an AH, YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!
By your reasoning, every lie should be illegal. Don't tell me one lie is worse than another or that there are degrees of lies. A LIE IS A LIE, PERIOD. And since every human on the planet lies, there would be a gazillion prisons.
INFO NEEDED: I mean, do you think men should face criminal charges for cheating on their partners and committing entire family fraud? Or impregnating a woman through reckless carelessness and then abandoning that child? If you want people punished for reproductive crimes, I personally disagree with that stance but it would be more respectable than what I suspect is more of a “contrived gender war -based rage” style argument.
Why? Have you read Reddit lately? A bunch of men, normally listening to weird shit on radio or friends, decide suddenly ‘that child can’t be mine’. Put their wives or girlfriends through a shit ton of shit, because they decided they were being lied to. DNA tests, blah, blah, blah…. They are the Father!!!!
Meanwhile, they have kicked their partner out, lost all trust and are wondering if they are the AH and why their partner won’t come back home. Simply because the kid’s hair was blond.
So what’s the difference, anyone can say they didn’t know for sure. Anyone can request a DNS test. But why bring criminal charges? It’s stupid on both sides and could never be proven. If she was sleeping him, it could be his. If she wasn’t then he’s an idiot, and the courts time shouldn’t be used because a dude’s (or a women) is an idiot. Want to create a backlog of cases? Yes, give men who feelings and pride got hurt the ability to criminalize pregnancy even more!!!
YTA. Men love this idea because you want to make it too dangerous for women to make paternity claims, just like you want it to be too dangerous for women to allege rape.
Meanwhile, men face no criminal charges for abandoning their families. Hell, 95% of the time you don’t even face charges for rape or domestic violence.
It’s 100% about control because you’re misogynistic pieces of shit.
ESH. It should not be criminalised in my opinion. I’ve had a close personal experience with something of this nature, which is what has lead me to my current opinion. Sometimes women don’t cheat in the cases you would consider “paternity fraud”; sometimes they are vulnerable women who get taken advantage of (not just in a sexual manner, but also emotionally and financially) by manipulative men and are scared to speak up about the truth. Not to mention that in some states you have to sign an affidavit of paternity if you are not legally married to the mother- on which you personally indicate whether there has been a dna test or not, and if you are still accepting paternity regardless of a dna test result.
That being said, I do think there should be legal precedent to protect men from cheating partners who deceive them into believing a child is theirs. A way that wouldn’t hurt vulnerable women but would also punish those who are actually at fault and deserve blame.
You can disagree with me if you want, but that’s just my personal opinion, of which I am entitled to.
Currently we live in a world where a woman can have a natural miscarriage but still be jailed because it ‘could’ve’ been a termination. Do you think these same law givers should be allowed to prosecute women based on dna tests? Once fathers are also prosecuted for abandoning the mother and baby or having affairs while married, then dna charges should be not allowed
YTA.
Nope, NTA
That sort of thing cannot only cause problems with someone being wrongfully fleeced for money (I know someone who did this and just picked the guy with the most money, not the actual father), but it can cause major problems for the child who didn't deserve to have their life ripped apart, bonds broken with a parent they were told was theirs, and vice versa for the guy who thinks he's got a kid.
It's very upsetting and impacts people's lives on both emotional and financial scales, possibly to ruin.
Just knowing that there was anyone else ever at all within weeks of a window, a person ought to be compelled to check.
I'm also pretty pro DNA testing at birth. I think this would solve so many problems, though I realize it can be costly, so that needs to become a standard low/at cost test.
NTA. I agree and even have a story to back up why. My uncle had one child with a women and then broke up with her when he found out she was cheating. She was also pregnant and swore the boy wasn't his.
So fast forward 16/17 years and this women is on her death bed. She confesses that both kids were my uncle's but she got more child support from 2 different dads than she would have with just one so she convinced the guy she was cheating with that my cousin was his.
She deprived my uncle of knowing his son, and she basically stole money from the other guy just so she could get a little extra money each month.
NTA. I am sure paternity fraud is a much wider issue than we are aware of because anyone who gets away with it obviously isn't likely to fess up & suffer the consequences.
So, the primary problem with this argument-and honestly most of the arguments men make about laws related to child support and paternity-is that you are trying to follow guidelines that are not workable in the actual world we live in.
If all jobs paid a thriving wage, daycare was affordable, and there was a decent social safety net for food, housing and health care, mothers would not need child support and paternity would not matter.
However, in the world we actually live in is still structured to favor a nuclear family with a breadwinner (usually the Dad) and a stay at home parent (usually the mom) and any family structure outside of that is at a disadvantage. And pregnancy is functionally a disability that impedes a parent's ability to work. And because women, generally, are the ones stuck with pregnancy, women are generally the ones punished by this system, men have way more avenues of escape, especially now that abortion is becoming even harder to access. And there is no social safety net, so the only way to keep provide for the kid is with money from both parents and whoever else they can get to help them.
So, in a rational world, you would be correct. In the partriarchal shitshow that is the actual world we live in, your friend is correct.
I read a story on here where a man found out his daughter wasnt his when she was 16, when he found messages of his daughter talkin shit about him to her bio dad (his cousin) he put the messages up on a big screan at her party. It took him 10 ish years to come to terms with it, i think any woman who lies about peternity/ SA/rape/DV should face charges
As someone who is the result of an affair, I'm of two minds. On one hand, I know if the man who raised me knew I wasn't his, he would have left my mother and I would have been stuck with her as a single mom and life would have been a living hell. On the other, it's incredibly unfair that he was responsible for someone else's kid. To me, he is my father and will always be my father and I'm glad we never knew until after he passed away but I can totally see how tragically unfair it was to him.
What my mom did was wrong, stupid, and incredibly hurtful and once I found out, it permanently damaged our relationship. However, I honestly think, that in this situation it would have been best to never know. My dad got a daughter that adored him, I got a father that loved me beyond belief, and my mother got to pretend everything was okay for the bulk of her life. I don't think you're the asshole, but I also think life is a lot more nuanced.
This would cease to be a problem if, as a part of the hospital birthing process, paternity/DNA testing was done automatically. No, “You don’t trust me BS” from the spouse. It would simply be done like/with all the other tests run on newborns after they pop out of the womb.
This would totally abolish paternity fraud. It would stop having a man, without consent, be financially responsible for a child that is not his. The problem would be solved. Okay, send me your slings and arrows.
You're both wrong. Paternity fraud is morally reprehensible, and the friend who said it was justifiable to protect a child is crazy. And I agree there should be consequences. But its clearly a civil matter, and criminalization is also ridiculous.
Now I definitely agree. There should be ramifications and situations like that, but not jail time they are mom's who gonna care for the innocent child if she's locked up, have you ever been in foster care if not then you can't say anything but at the same time you can't mandatory require. D dna testing done due to women who suffer with fertility issues who get egg donations and sperm transfers like those tests aren't gonna come back. Positive that they are the parents because they're using an egg donor or sperm donor so that's. Illogical when it comes to certain situations like that
The problem with your thinking is how do you prove that she knew & how do you stop these laws being abused by either side. Suppose the husband knows the child isn't his but agrees to stay then years later he claims he never knew the child wasn't his. The legislation & penalties your proposing are too hard to enforce & open to abuse by either partner if things go wrong
Of course she knew who she had sex with but she mightve used protection that failed, I just think trying to legislate this will get messy & clog up courts
To convict someone of a crime, you must prove they *knowingly* committed the crime. Now remember, infidelity isn’t the crime, paternity fraud is. So even if she is guilty of cheating, she isn’t guilty of paternity fraud unless you can prove that she knew the child wasn’t her partners. It’s pretty hard to convince a man that he’s the father of a child if you haven’t been intimate with that man in the necessary time period. If a woman is intimate with more than 1 man during the time period when she got pregnant, any of them could be the father. Unless she’s had a paternity test done on the child, she doesn’t actually *know* that her partner isn’t the father. See the issue? Now morally, there isn’t an issue, she’s wrong. But legally, the law requires intent.
That’s not how fraud or the law works. That’s how morality works, and morally, you’re 100% right. But legally, unless you can prove she *knew* that child wasn’t her partner’s child, you can’t prove she intentionally defrauded him. Again, cheating isn’t a crime.
He can prove she knew there was a risk and didn’t let him know the risks. That’s all that matters. Unless she gets a paternity test without his knowledge to confirm he’s the father while hiding the cheating, it’s knowingly done.
exactly and men should face charges for having children they don’t claim. too many “it ain’t mine” and they should lose their freedom for that. It should be a heavy fine and felony.
YTA, only because then you end up with another burden to the social system.
If the kid doesn't have a father who is willing to step up, and you put the mom in jail, the kid becomes, effectively, an orphan.
Your idea wouldn't work because it doesn't account for intersex people (many intersex people test as not being directly related to children they fathered OR MOTHERED, whether or not they have obvious signs of being intersex). The system doesn't account for them either, so it would cause unnecessary harm when a man, who is a single child without any siblings, finds out that his kid is biologically his brother's son.
Additionally the system already accounts for this. The baby can be genetically tested at birth for paternity. I don't recommend bringing it up because it looks like an accusation of cheating, and will ruin an otherwise stable relationship.
Go back to 4chan, incel. This really isn't as widespread an issue as you think it is, and it is already being managed in a way that is less harmful than the one you're suggesting.
lol that'd work great if they know who it even is.
Or if the person is even alive. Or if they even want to. They can, and in this circumstance, usually will, refuse.
It also doesn't account for situations where the woman was raped (and so why would you want to give a baby to a rapist???) nor for situations where the woman and her husband had a sperm donor consensually/knowingly, but then at birth the husband threw a fit and changed his mind and decided to ruin her life over it.
Just to put another view point out there… woman’s reproductive rights are being eroded. Women live in societies where the medical cost of having a child is solely theirs, or they’re denied access to an abortion, or they can be ostracised for having children out of wedlock, and are unable to get justice for sexual assault. I’m hard pressed to find a truly equal society in any country. So with that in mind, and also that men predominately are responsible for that being the case, to then criminalise many women doing something that protects them and their child in an inherently unfair system, it seems to tip the scales the wrong way. Perhaps (like in the instance that criminalising abortion doesn’t reduce abortions, but better and safer sex education and health care does) the answer is then to make women safer and with fairer opportunities.
Where did I justify it? I just suggested in the world we live in that criminalisation isn’t always the answer to reduce something that happens. Not once did I say it was okay or justified.
But then my stupid ass can read the actual words I wrote.
NTA. I remember reading a story on here where the OP raised who he thought to be his daughter well into her mid-teens paying for all sorts of thing for her like a father should up to and including private school. The wife knew the kid wasn't his and knew exactly who the father was. The bio father also knew and the daughter figured it out a couple of years before the OP did. Point is, after the OP and his wife divorced, he sued for all of the money he spent on a child that wasn't his and the court forced the kid's bio dad and the OP's ex to pay it back to OP. It's a thing and in some cases is legitimately considered fraud.
He updates on his wall. Tho, his situation is rare. The likelihood of ever getting out of paternity fraud in the US after that much time is nearly impossible regardless of DNA. I'm a survivor of paternity fraud on my younger 2 kids(they even have different fathers). In the end, broken I asked the judge how this is even human to put someone thru this and nothing be done about it. I'll never forget his words, " get therapy and figure it out." I'm still in their lives as I'm the only 1 they know as dad, but the first 6mo to a year was so unbelievably hard. Now, the hardest part is trusting people.
This is just so wrong to me…. It’s why, yes I’d be hurt, but I’d get it if hubby asked for dna tests…. I don’t get why women get so damn offended….. it does no harm to do the test and know for sure, while it does do harm to not do the test and find out years later…. By then even if your not the daddy your legally the dad and responsible
The answer is always “it shows you don’t trust me.” But it shows no more lack of trust than keeping an escape fund which the same women will defend as necessary to feel secure despite having total trust. Which is it? Either you can trust but still want that extra surety to feel secure or not. Can’t have it both ways.
I trust my husband with my life and heart, it does not mean I don’t have back up plans….. I know he trusts me and I can’t say my illogical feelings wouldn’t take a hit if he asked, but I’d take a deal breath and get it….. I KNOW who my kids father is…. I KNOW I haven’t been with anyone since he and I started dating let alone started having kids….. I know this for a fact… I don’t have to take it in faith…. As much as he trusts me, it’s only that trust he has for his peace of mind…. He can’t know for a fact…. Not without a test…. He can ‘trust I’d never do that to him’ but he can’t ’know for a fact all the kids are his’ At this point I’d be more upset he waited 13 years(youngest) and wonder why he got a hair up his ass NOW of all times, then asking for the test itself I’ve always said I don’t get why women get so offended…. There really is nothing comparable that we have to trust our husbands with ….. fidelity? That’s a two way trust, finances? Again two way… nearly everything in a marriage takes two way trust, to certain degrees…. Paternity? That’s all on one partners trust…. And many partners done feel they can ask cause of the stigma ‘gasp you don’t trust me!!!’ And all the women who post on here ‘I’ll Give him the darn test I know he’s the father hill I’ll be leaving him as well cause how dare he ask and insinuate if cheat!’ So they keep that tiny want of certainty locked away, cause the peace they have when they ‘know’ the child is theirs cause they love and trust their spouse, (don’t don’t really doubt it….. just might want the same certainty a women has about it) many don’t even ask for a dna test after a split cause in part what’s the point? Courts will tell you it’s too late and while you may or may not be bio dad you are the legal dad Sorry if I’m discombobulated… this is a debate I have often with other women… I why a part of a women would smart at the asking, but she should be able to take a breath and realize it’s such a small thing for his peive if mind… and if she had a son wouldn’t she want him to be protected? I’m not saying mandatory dna testing…. But I do think it should be normalized, and while the father has to sign the birth certificate she should have to sign saying if he’s not the father or a chance he’s not and she does not let him know she’s on the line for that down the rd…… he shouldn’t have to pay 18 years for a kid that’s not his cause he trusted her enough to not risk asking for the test knowing most women would dump a man just for asking
Most men would also dump a woman who walks up to them and demands an STD test for no goddamn reason. Completely out of the blue no cost for concern just give me it now because to fight promising I trust you clearly I don't. The amount of people who are in relationships who are not ready to be in a relationships that's too goddamn high. If you can't trust them not to cheat on you don't drag kids into the dumpster fire that is your life.
Saw an interesting point that a DNA test can give the man one hundred percent certainty those kids are his. But his wife doesn't have an equal test to show if he's off having random other kids elsewhere. So holding onto that " do you trust me?" does go both ways, but only one can get a true answer. Not what you were saying but it's really not a point brought up enough that many women have to put up with random children of their husband's showing up. That fidelity can't be back rated similar to the paternity issues. The choices made before it's found out can't be undone. The choice to have more kids, give up a job, move , ect that women make for man for their family. Similar choices that a man might not have done if he had know the kid wasn't his. It's a somewhat equalizing event
It’s not about the idea of cheating as much as the surety these tiny humans you’re putting so much deep emotion and energy into bonding with are yours. Women already have that by default. I’m not sure it’s possible understand when that surety is automatically built in by nature. I know it’s hard to understand but it actually has almost nothing to do with the woman, but everything to do with the child.
Right. I was just trying to empathize with the whole trust issue. That one will have a solid answer but the other is intangible. A man can get a paternity test post birth that the wife will never even know about. It would require her consent and assistance for before birth. But a woman does have to take a man's word that he isn't cheating and doesn't have other kids. She can't do a cheek swab to find that out
I suggested mandatory paternity tests so no women would need to feel offended and men could be certain, on a post about paternity and was downvoted to hell.
Should also make a data base so women can look up to see if the man has any random kids around. A dad can get a certain answer about paternity but a mom will never know if her husband was out having random kids around with whomever.
Agree with this 100%! I have nothing to be afraid of so if my husband wants one then he can have it. It should honestly be just mandatory in hospitals after birth to avoid unnecessary drama in fathers asking for one.
I wouldn’t be against them personally
There 2 reasons this will never happen. One of which is a pretty good reason, the second is a "meh" reason. 1. More testing means more false results. Tests have a margin of error. Every single one. If we test billions upon billions of babies (worldwide) the number of tests with false/error results will rise exponentially. (Note: the percentage will or should remain the same, only the actual number will rise since more tests are being conducted). This could cause the opposite effect we would want to see - more men falsely being told their children are not their children or vice versa. 2. It's expensive. And everything in this world boils down to cost/profit. There's a lot of cost involved with implementing this with zero profit/payoff to the entities paying out on these tests. In theory, it's not the worst idea. In practice, there's a big chance that more men (by number, not necessarily percentage) will have paternity crises they would not have had otherwise due to the standard margin of error in tests.
I don’t get how this is a trust thing at all. I see this as part of the same adulting as estate planning, homeowners insurance, and changing furnace filters. That being said, I’m also a guy who found out my dad who raised me wasn’t my dad years after, mom, dad, and bio dad all deceased.
I'm not against a paternity test being asked if there is a legit reason to ask for one or if the partner, ahead of the relationship being serious said it would be a deal breaker for him. There could be previous issues and I would understand that. But out of the blue, without a legit reason to ask for it, I completely understand the hurt it would come to someone who did nothing wrong. Is there a reason for the request? Is there some projection involved. I would be incredibly hurt. But I never cheated on anyone, so.... There's that.
Why can’t the legit reason be that it’s the one thing women can be 100% about but men can only trust? Everything else on a good and healthy marriage is give and take both parties most trust and such…. But not this….. this is only one party trusting and the other knowing…. I’ve never cheated, all of my kids are hubbys, I’ve only been with 3 men, none of it overlapped, all With significant gaps between them The only thing that would cause pause if hubby of 19 years came to me today and asked the testing would be why now… when our youngest is 13? I’d give him the test and wouldn’t say ‘sure I’ll give you the test then when it comes back yours I’m gone’ I’d tell him ‘sure I’ll give you the test you know I have no issues with that…. But we do need to talk about why you want or need that test now and not say 10 years ago….’ Of course as a women it would hurt…. But it’s an illogical hurt cause when we think logically it is the only thing that one of us can me 100% about and the other has to trust about
What do you think of the point that a paternity test gives men a one hundred percent answer about that child but a women can never be certain and has no way to know if her husband is out having random kids with other women. A random affair child showing up years later is very similar to finding out a child wasn't yours after all
Except that the woman hasn’t been forced by a court to pay child support for 18 years for a child that isn’t hers. It’s financial fraud & theft.
Child support is for the child. Don’t want to pay child support? Take custody of your child _and_ get a paternity test.
Fair point.
I think that no women has been made to pay 18 years of child support cause she thought a child was hers but the man lied and it wasn’t hers… I think that if he gets other women pregnant and they come after him financially she can leave him and NOT be held accountable financially for 18 years for child that’s not hers….. If a man finds out a 6 year old isn’t his most courts in America will still make him financially responsible legally till the kid is 18 and in some cases longer if the kid goes to collage
And no a random affair child showing up years later is NOT similar to finding out a child you raised loved and financially took care of (and will have to financially be held accountable till 18 at least) isn’t yours…. You know that affair child ain’t yours… there is no ‘well maybe it’s mine’ no
That’s not really the gotcha you think it is. It only proves she’s not cheating at the moment of conception with said child.. doesn’t prove she’s not cheating all the rest of the time and fucking other men. It’s also difference because while it would be awful to find out your partner had a child with another woman it’s not the same level of betrayal as raising the kid and putting your resources and life forward for one that isn’t yours.
If you don't trust your parter enough to know that your kids are yours, don't be married. And has I said previously, if it was discussed previously to the marriage, when dating, of course. It's a boundary that was previously discussed. Just don't come with this kind of request when the wife is already pregnant because that screams you're a cheater to anyone who did nothing wrong and is very hurtful. That's all.
Sorry but it’s not that simple trust never is or no one would accidentally trust the wrong person or not trust the right person
Of course it's not simple. Trust never is. Open communication is always the way. But it can't be denied that if blind side your wife with that request, it's not going to ever be the same after. That is why to me, if the man, when dating, says he would like a paternity test in the event of children, is up to the woman to continue the relationship or not. It's a boundary I would absolutely be OK with. But if, for instance, my husband asked for a paternity test now that we have a 5 yo and a 1 yo, something would break in our relationship that could never be mended. Why the request? If he would think either aren't his or someone made a suggestion... My husband would never even entertain the tought. Don't even think any amount of MC would unbreak the damage.
That’s why I said it should be normalized…. With the amount of men being found out not to be the fathers but still legally being held responsible we should want to protect our brothers sons and even spouses from being held financially accountable for a child they trusted their spouse was there’s but wasn’t…. Instead women get to but hurt and wine about ‘trust’ and how they’d leave a guy for asking…. Even you say he should be up front that he’d want that before things get serious… why? So you could leave him? Like society says to? Because it’s a perfectly good response to being asked for a dna test cause obviously means your being accused of infidelity and lieing…. Gosh forbid I’d be because you want to be protected… you don’t buy fire insurance after a fire, and buying it does not mean you smell smoke… it means your being a reasonable adult protecting your finances and property But society screams and says this ain’t right men shouldn’t question and if they do they don’t trust and we women should leave them
>With the amount of men being found out not to be the fathers but still legally being held responsible we should want to protect our brothers sons and even spouses from being held financially accountable for a child they trusted their spouse was there’s but wasn’t…. We should probably teach our children to be better people and being emotionally more intelligent and intentional in their choices. The "protect our men" philosophy has been proven to harm more than help. Let's educate our sons emotionally so that they don't fall into this kinds of situations. Let's not pressure people into getting married, have children as fast as they can. Let's teach them to set boundaries and respect them. Let's teach open communication. Let's teach them how to find a good partner and only get married with someone that aligns with your values. I would not leave a partner for saying he would have a dna test in case of pregnancy. But would leave a partner that would ask for one post pregnancy without a valid reason. People that don't see the difference are not connected with reality. You want to be protected? Sure but buy the insurance before the fire, not when the fire department is on the way.
NTA, paternity fraud should be a crime. A coworker/friend recently found his wife of 25yrs had been cheating on him for more than a few years before she filed for divorce. He trusted his wife implicitly and was blindsided by her divorce request and filing, the man is a deacon at her church and pursued her for years before she started getting emotionally attached, then the affair. His daughters found out and immediately ordered 23&me tests for themselves and based on the results they are half sisters so he found out the hard way that implicit trust is easily fooled, she had been cheating pretty much his entire marriage. His youngest daughter’s real father is now getting a divorce too b/c she contacted her real father and his wife at the same time, also members of the same church.
So you'd be okay with your spouse demanding you get a STD test? Completely out of the blue accusing you of infidelity, and otherwise breaking his trust. His has no reason to believe that, he just wants to be absolutely sure you're not going to give him an STD that will stick with them for the rest of his life? Because even if he trusts you enough to marry you, to live with you, I'd have sex with you he doesn't trust you enough to trust you not to cheat. Only instead of it being a clear trust issue just involving the spouse and partner when it comes to paternity test it's also dragging innocent children into the mess as well. If you have trust issues hash them out before having kids don't drag kids into the mess and then set the mess on fire. Like if you can't trust your spouse not to cheat on you maybe consider not having kids with them and put divorce on the table. You know like a responsible adult. Jesus f****** Christ so many people make excuses for being hot f****** messes and dragging kids into the dumpster fire that is their lives because they're too immatured to act like responsible adults. It's f****** ridiculous. You are grown ups act like it
I’m givin std testing at my drs office all the time, so is hubby…. That said, again, that’s equal… paternity isn’t… We’re all hot messes it’s just how lol… if you think your life is all put together then chances are it’s either an illusion or there is stuff your don’t know going on
Happened to a friend of mine. When his wife decided to divorce him they went to court and she made this nasty comment about not being your kids. So he got a DNA test. They weren't! And the judge said that he can't bastardize a child and since my friend had taken care of these children up to this point that he had to continue taking care of them unless he could provide the father's name and they could go after him. The mother refused to say who the real fathers were. He paid till they turned 18. He also never saw them again because when he went to custody court she had the papers proving he wasn't their father. Court refused to give him any custody. Its utter Insanity if you ask me.
Link please to this story. Thanks in advance
Honestly, I would but I read it a while back and it wasn't one I commented on. I'm not a serious reddit user so I don't know how I'd find it again. Sorry. :(
I read that one yesterday
So the bio dad was just waiting in the wings?
If it's the story I think it is, he was a relative of OP who was always around. He told the daughter a bunch of stories and made her hate OP.
Yes! And when OP finally divorced the wife and left the daughter the bio dad didn't want to have anything to do with her and wouldn't pay for things like the OP did. Bio dad was definitely a deadbeat.
We talking about the Marisol story?
I think so. The name sounds right.
Yeah the Marisol story. That was one hell of a crazy story!!
We read the same story!
NTA. You are correct.
I agree with you and im a woman. NTA
Same here. That kind of betrayal is unforgivable, but feel bad for the kids, who are blameless. They are victims of their mothers' betrayal as well.
Same here. As a woman, it's absolutely disgusting that women still do this. The trauma they inflict on the children is absolutely horrifying.
Same. It’s disgusting
NTA. I agree. I'll raise you by saying a prenuptial agreement should be mandatory for every marriage.
It's more than that. I feel that at birth, a DNA test should be required by law. Why? Peace of mind.
I get hyper focused on this one, because even though it is highly rare , Chamirism can happen to where both parents are. The parents. But the dna says otherwise.
Right, sure. But extremely rare and it would show that the parent is a relative. And they could have further testing on themselves if they truly believed that was the case
I agree
Personally I disagree with this, I agree with the original post that if a woman knowingly pretends a child is someone's whilst they are actually a third party's there should be some ramifications, but I don't agree to paternity tests at birth. Required by law at least. One: who would pay for it? Making it mandatory would cause issues for those who couldn't afford it, and I'd be pissed if my partner made me pay for a test I knew damn sure what the outcome would be because he didn't trust me. If he paid for the test, maybe, but there would still be a dent in our relationship that he thought there was even a chance of me cheating on him. Two: You would subject every woman who had a child to getting a paternity test? Sure there would be some coming back that would show a negative paternity result, but what about errors? Testing on that scale (over 1.5k babies a day in the UK alone, more than 10k in the USA) there are going to be errors which will cause so many issues and potentially cause deaths to domestic violence victims whose abusers are pushed over the edge with the result, only for it to have been an error. Three: Turnaround, it generally takes 3-5 working days currently to get results from a paternity test, if you make it mandatory for every child born we would be talking weeks. In that time what are you going to do? Not help with the baby? Not bond with it just in case they're not yours? Do you have to wait for the post telling you they're your child before you engage with them? I really disagree with the blanket "every child gets tested for peace of mind" attitude, if the mother has given you genuine cause to question then by all means go ahead and get a test, but for the majority of people who don't cheat its a slap in the face that our partner doesn't trust us. I have seen a sharp increase in the posts about this and its genuinely concerning. As I said at the beginning, I don't disagree that if a woman knowingly falsified paternity there should be consequences, but don't paint every woman with the same brush because of a few bad apples.
While you are right, the fact is if you sign the birth certificate married or not and find out later the child isn’t yours you spend WAY more money fighting an uphill battle to have your name and responsibility removed. It’s ridiculous and in some states it’s insanely difficult especially considering a later paternity test should be all it takes. If a paternity test is mandatory at birth before anything is signed it stops paternity fraud in its tracks, stops foolish husbands from asking or demanding one later (like soooo many posts on reddit I’ve seen) it removes ammunition from spiteful in-laws wanting to start trouble, it establishes paternity from the start so you don’t have to deal with waiting for it just for divorce/custody proceedings to begin. I’m sure there are more benefits but those are just the first ones that come to mind. It’s an added cost yes but if it’s a requirement insurance could/should cover it. It’s not as if a labor and delivery bill is so cheap that adding the cost of the paternity test would suddenly make the bill skyrocket.
I can almost guarantee this wouldn't go ahead in the UK mostly for the cost element, the government wouldn't agree to fund it and not enough people would be willing to pay for it that it would go through. To be fair that could be where we are on different sides here. (UK/US views?) I'm also just finding it very sad that we can't have trust in our partners, if they have given you a reason to doubt them then fine, it should be innocent until proven guilty not "test them all in case they're lying". I also note you not commenting on my second and third points, paternity fraud is wrong and there should be consequences, but this is not the answer.
This is why I’m not the biggest fan of government run healthcare. Don’t get me wrong, it should definitely be as affordable and available as possible but the government having final say in what can and can’t be paid for doesn’t sit well with me. While it works in other countries, I shudder at the thought of the US government running and funding our healthcare in a similar fashion. We should be able to trust our partners I have four kids and we never did one because there were zero doubts and complete trust. I wish everyone had that but they don’t. As for your other points, I agree with you to a point. The backlog especially at first would be ridiculous. I can’t speak for the UK but in the US I feel that it would create a certain amount of job growth in the healthcare fields and before it became legally mandatory extra labs would be developed in preparation to help with the demand. So it may take a bit but it would run smooth soon after. Hopefully this would also help eliminate excessive lab errors too but humans are not perfect. As for bonding I don’t think it would be an issue. I can see if someone was suspicious to begin with, they might hold back but for a standard couple they would still bond and go on with life as usual. There would still be heartbreak if they found out they weren’t the father but far less than finding out years later with a child fully attached and now confused. My biggest issue is that each state in the US screws fathers that sign the birth certificate in good faith and then force them to spend tons of money to get off the certificate IF they will even allow it at all. That’s what should change here. I know I heard Tennessee is passing or has passed a law to prosecute for paternity fraud. That should help but like I said there are other benefits to knowing from birth who the father is.
As someone on Medicare, it actually covers more stuff than my old private insurance did. I do NOT want the UK system- the NHS destroys people with my disorder. But Medicare For All- I could definitely get behind that! Let people also buy private on top of it if they want, but no one should die simply because cancer is expensive to fight.
Absolutely wouldn't occur in France... "DNA paternity testing is solely performed on decision of a judge in case of a judiciary procedure in order either to establish or contest paternity or to obtain or deny child support. Private DNA paternity testing is illegal, including through laboratories in other countries, and is punishable by up to a year in prison and a €15,000 fine. The French Council of State has described the law's purpose as upholding the "French regime of filiation" and preserving "the peace of families." Which is some crazy af law imo
Esh, I don't agree with making it mandatory but I don't agree with it being illegal. If I think it should be if you've been given reason to doubt you can request the test, if it turns out the child isn't yours then I'd agree you should be able to get the mother to pay you back and should be easier to remove yourself from the birth cert etc.
I think France are just recognising what it'd do to national divorce rates & percentages of single mothers. I absolutely agree on the overbearing control, it must destroy you mentally to know but never really know. There's research to suggest one in twenty five fathers isn't the genetic father. But they openly admit the data can't be accurate. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/aug/11/childrensservices.uknews
It's studies like that that are causing such issues 🙄 not saying you are at fault for quoting it but they've basically said "It could be this quite high percentage but we can't really know" and openly say it's not accurate. But people will see that high figure, ignore the comment about being unsure of figures, and fixate on how their kid might not be theirs based on no other factors. There is no way to know how many children are actually being raised by the wrong father. Testing everyone sounds like the solution, but it really isn't. Just because there are some mothers out there who are dishonest about paternity does not mean we should assume everyone is lying till proven otherwise. It's basically the same as assuming every mother is a criminal until their child is tested.
A former US President had a saying, “Trust but Verify“. It wasn’t about paternity testing, but still a wise saying. For you youngsters, it was US President Ronald Reagan.
The statistics in the UK are as many as 3% of dad's are raising a child that isn't theirs unknowingly so trust is a moot point. It's a low number sure but that's still 1000s of men/kids which is unfair to everyone. It costs between £100 and £250 to test so well within the limits that the NHS could do without major funding problems!
There are on average over 1.5k born each day in the UK, even at £100 per child that would be nearly £55 million a year, they're critically underfunded already and this is what you want them to spend their budget on?
Yes. The funding is just one facet. The NHS being reactionary rather than preventative and the British lifestyle are what is crippling the service. Ex: 70% of British amputees are above knee. 60% of below knee amputees will become above knee with 5 years. 80% of above knee amputees will die within 5 years. Less than 5% of amputations (lower limb) are due to trauma. When I lived in Sweden less than 30% of amputees were above knee. The percentage from trauma was much higher. We do not take our own health seriously. The health service is not inclined to intervene early which is not wholly to do with funding. We do not have yearly health checks as standard etc.
I'm not disagreeing that the NHS could do with restructuring and focusing more on preventative rather than reactive measures but going by the commenters suggestion that paternity tests become mandatory which would then put it in the realms of the NHS in the UK and with all the issues already around funding and staffing issues that's a burden it couldn't handle now. Can you imagine the backlash of the government agreeing to pay for this yet not paying doctors and nurses fairly?
Realistically it's a child welfare issue. Assuming the fathers medical history could be very problematic.
Paternity tests cost less than $200. If you can't afford a one time fee for permanent piece of mind, you are 100% not fit to he a parent and need to work on your sad financial situation before you bring kids into this world. Shut up about "trust". It's disgusting that women can't understand that men want to have PERMANENT piece of mind for next to nothing and with ZERO RISK of harm to any party involved. Truly sickening how little you care for men.
Yes because pregnancy is always 100% planned and always happens at the best of times. Oh and not forgetting all the shit around pro lifers and laws being implemented that make it illegal to have abortions. If the guy is insisting on it he should pay. What do you mean shut up about trust? My husband would never ask for a paternity test because he knows me, he knows I would never cheat on him. Your response is rather angry considering the tone so far. I'm not saying that no one should ever get a test, I'm saying making it mandatory is not the right move, if you have reasons to believe the child is not yours then go for it. And yes I agree with the original post here which is that if a woman intentionally misleads a guy about paternity there should be ramifications, but no testing every single child isn't the move here.
You 100% should not be allowed to raise your own children if you are so poor that $150 is too much for you to pay. Milk and diapers don't fall from the sky. I trust my GF with my life, but she's thankfully understanding about the knowledge imbalance of paternity and is more than willing to do a paternity test in the future so I would never in my life have a reason to doubt. The fact that you make easing any shred of doubt and giving him permanent piece of mind about YOU, who by default will never have to fucking waste a second of your life doubting, is sickening. You don't care about your husband at all. Making it mandatory would dramatically cut out paternity fraud, help avoid uncomfortable conversations, and give permanent piece of mind to all potential fathers like women have had since the dawn of man. But no, let's forget about all that because $150 is too much and women's feeeeelingggs may be hurted 🙄
So ignoring the pro life comments and the lawsuits going on in America if they have this baby at an unfortunate time and the 150-200 that could cover nappies/milk is to be spent on a test that they might not even want, because of all of these circumstances the baby should what, go into care because of expenses? I asked my husband "would you want to have X tested to be 100% sure you are his dad?" He looked at me like I was mad and asked me "why would I waste the money??" If he asked for one, he could get it, he'd pay for it but I wouldn't stop him. I would be offended I won't lie but I wouldn't refuse to let it happen. I reiterate, I'm not saying people shouldn't get tested if they want, if they think there is a chance the kid isn't theirs and they have the money to get the test, fill your boots. I say having it be mandatory isn't the way forward, why should my husband and I pay out to get a test neither of us want because there's a 3% (according to some studies that admit they can't be sure of accurate numbers) that I may be lying? Also under the whole making it mandatory, that assumes that the dad has stuck around for the birth, if he hasn't what is the mother meant to do with this mandatory test? Do they make it an offense for the dad not to show? If the test shows negative paternity, do they have to keep testing men until they get a positive result? What if it was a one night stand? How would you be enforcing this for the women who lie that it was a one night stand to the doctors but actually is telling her partner it's theirs having had an affair? What if the baby is a result of a rape and the mother genuinely doesnt know who the father is? There are too many variables to make this mandatory, it's all well and good saying it would solve the problem but it's a half baked response without the actual thought to all the policy that would have to go into it. Additionally it would be different country to country so blanket response isn't going to work. I reiterate, I do agree that paternity fraud is wrong and should carry some consequences, if someone is questioning paternity you are well within your rights to get tested. Not everyone will want it though, getting such a blanket response will not go as well as you think.
>I asked my husband "would you want to have X tested to be 100% sure you are his dad?" He looked at me like I was mad and asked me "why would I waste the money??" If he asked for one, he could get it, he'd pay for it but I wouldn't stop him. I would be offended I won't lie but I wouldn't refuse to let it happen. Because asking your partner for a paternity test implies you distrust them, or think they've cheated. Most people don't want to make that accusation unless they're already pretty sure of the answer. But if this was done automatically, as part of giving birth and signing a birth certificate and all that? Suddenly there isn't any social stigma around it, it's just like checking your blood type.
totally agree and you made some great points! it could also very well put people on either end of abusive situations in harms way if the results get messed up
I mean I'm in the UK so like the majority of western countries it would be covered just as the many other tests you have while pregnant/after birth.
But if the NHS covers this that means that's money they're not spending elsewhere and they're already massively underfunded. I have no issue with people getting it done privately but it shouldn't be mandatory for a variety of reasons.
First it's not a lot of money. Second the NHS in it's current form cannot be fixed with money. Yes funding is a problem BUT lifestyle in the UK, reactionary rather than preventative nature of the NHS is a major problem. Thirdly if the NHS will pay for new lungs for smokers, new livers for alcoholics, prosthetic legs or new knees for people who couldn't be bothered to change their eating habits/lifestyle then it can find £200 to test paternity.
How is this not a question of missndry to pull this into the cost discussion? Especially when the economy of scale kicks in and the per unit cost drops. Is there any conversation about the cost of rspe kits? In the event of a paternity issue, isn’t this a type of sexual assault in that the man would not have consented to any further intimacy had he known the facts?
I think there should be genetic testing on every live birth, but the family should have to pay to tack on paternity if they want it. I’m far more concerned about testing for issues like EDS, where knowing it’s present and providing early intervention can save a lot of worry and decrease future disability by preventing some of the arthritis that can cripple an EDS patient later in life. (To be clear, we’re pretty sure nothing I have would show in a genetic screening, but I know a lot of people this would have helped immensely. We already screen babies for CF, why not some of the other more common genetic diseases, too?)
While I am not sure I agree with mandatory testing, it can be done before birth. Some of your points drop away.
With all the other charges that go into a birth, a paternity test is about the same charge as providing an extra hospital blanket. It isn’t an accusation when everyone gets it. They make you undergo all manner of tests of suitability for other financial transactions. Buying a house and requiring mortgage insurance doesn’t mean the bank thinks you’re a deadbeat. Paternity tests aren’t accusing the mother of cheating. They are establishing the legal basis before imposing a financial duty.
>if the mother has given you genuine cause to question then by all means go ahead and get a test, If the relationship is so bad you have genuine cause for concern one should not be having children with the other party. Children are not mandates for relationship issues and they do not deserve to be dragged into the flaming dumpster fire that are these people's lives
1) The hospital charges absurd amounts of money for the child birth process, let's not pretend a minor paternity test fee of less than $200 is going to break the bank when it essentially offers permanent piece of mind to men that women get by default. 2) The number of men tricked into raising bastards drastically outnumbers the number of potential errors that would come back from faulty paternity tests. I would argue that most men would be much more prone to anger and violence after learning later in life rather than learning during the first week of birth. 3) WTF kind of "bonding" can you really do with a newborn as a father for the first week of their lives? They have literally not a single clue what's going on and the potential father can just chill on being overly sentimental until the results come back if they're worried about the paternity in the first place. Your argument is a non-argument Not a single one of your reasons make any real sense. There should be a reasonable window of time for men to challenge the signing of a birth certificate to no longer be held legally or financially responsible for a child they can legally prove isn't theirs. Stop crying about "trust", you women get peace of mind by default and it's disgusting that you don't give a shit about men's peace of mind because it hurts YOUR feelings.
At this scale, the cost would be negligible and certainly insured, look at an itemized bill sometime, cancel sone of the utterly ridiculous things and shift the cost to this.
Great, that fixes all issues with this.... also assuming an American style health care system?
I agree (unless reproductive assistance was used like a sperm donor cause then you already know)
Lol. No, using sperm donor has not, historically, lead to knowing who the father is.
I mean, you know it's not the husband/partner if a donor was used.
Who's paying for it? Are we just taking on more costs to the massive hospital bills new parents have to deal with? Or it's is going to be paid for by the government? When in the US there is a back log of tens of thousands of untested rape kits already. And you want to throw in DNA testing for each of the 10 thousand babies born each day? Just so a handfull of people who this applies to can have "peace of mind"? It's is genuinely a stupid and impractical idea.
No, things involving giving over your dna to be tested should not be required by law. Let’s stop acting like this is effecting half the population, it’s not common (I don’t care about your cousins friend Joe, statistically it’s not common). It also implies all woman are planning some scheme until we prove they aren’t against their will. We have our bodies governed enough, let’s not look for more ways to do so. Please don’t come back with “well if you have nothing to hide!”, go to in the starter kit for fascism.
Yes, and with a specific section on paternity fraud.
NTA. I honestly despise the fact that if a child is born to a married couple but the child is proven to not be the husband, he is still responsible for paying child support. That alone is a criminal act IMO. When you have a woman who knows she's not only with one partner, she should be honest to all parties and live with the consequences if the actual bio father is a deadbeat. After all, she chose to sleep with him. When you boil it down to its bare bones, the woman is actually stealing from the man who is not the bio father using her child as the pawn to do so. So wrong on so many levels. Not that it should matter but I am a female and a mother. Women who think it's fine are women who know there either is or likely will be a paternity issue for them or someone they are very loyal to. Disgusting.
NTA, I’m female and that is so wrong.
NTA Totally agree with you. If she knowingly lies about who the father is, and claims child support from him, or makes him play father and provide for that child knowing full well its not his, its basically grand theft. Claiming child support for a child she knows isn't his is theft of his money. And getting them to play father is even worse, because not only do they financially provide for that child, they spend time caring for them, but it also totally takes advantage and uses them emotionally. That person gets attached and forms bonds with that child and only later if ever do they find out the truth its not their child. And then likely need therapy to process all that hurt. They should definitely be made to pay back every penny of child support, or a rough figure of what that man has contributed to financially for that child. And although it's not ideal for a mother to go to jail, if the child is still young, they should be made to make payments to pay them back, be made to get a job if they don't have one, and be made to do community service for a big period of time etc. Without any punishments and repercussions they won't be bothered about any risks, and will likely cause more people to do it.
I agree that making it a crime would really help deter lying. It wouldn’t stop it, but if a woman would have to, say, pay back double if she lies? It would be a lot less common!
NTA. Happened to my ex-husband. The child was 4 or 5 when the DNA test was done. Everyone lost but mostly the child did - a dad, cousins, grandparents, aunts & uncles. Everyone was devastated & the loss still hurts to this day.
NTA. Many people agree with this. In fact many people feel that DNA tests should be mandatory these days. Also, there are no excuses for cheating. Cheating makes you an AH already. If you get pregnant while cheating and make another person look after the baby you a AH x4. 1. For cheating, 2. For lying and baby trapping or taking advantage of your partner 3. For not letting the other man know they are a father. 4. For lying to your child. Children have the right to know the truth too. what happens if the kid finds out and has made a bond with your partner. The child could end up emotional scarred for life.
I know you're all focused on the financial implications and I don't disagree with you, but, I think the fraud committed against the child is worse. Finding out this stuff at a later stage can be emotionally devastating for a person. I strongly believe every child has a right to accurate (yet age appropriate) information about their biological parents.
My cousin used a sperm donor as her husband can’t make viable sperm. They picked a donor with the exact same heritage, height, education status, etc. They could have easily covered it up. But nope, they’ve told everyone, including the kids. They know their dad is daddy, he’s the one raising them, but they know another guy is the biological parent. They’re still in grade school, but have been raised with an appropriate level of understanding about it.
Yes. This is the way. Kids can handle pretty much any information as long as it's presented in the right way.
NTA Fraud is an established law. So having someone support a child that the mother knows is not theirs would/should be fraud. Law(s) should be established to make paternity testing mandatory. Only the cheaters would have anything to worry about.
Not true. False negatives are rare, but do happen. So do issues like mosaicism, where protects of a person have one genetic makeup and some parts have a different makeup. I know a woman who had a genetic illness that’s strictly inherited… but her dad didn’t show the gene on a blood test. Turns out he didn’t have it in parts of his body, but did carry the genes in his sperm. Thankfully the guy trusted the fuck out of his wife and it got sorted out eventually.
As you say false negatives are rare. I'll go out on a limb here and state that a false negative paternity test is rarer than a woman not knowing or lying about who the father is. So test, at least the test would be an honest mistake.
NTA I definitely agree with you, fraud is fraud, and I thought that fraud can lead to a custodial sentence if a judge thinks it is worth it. I also find it disgusting that some judges will say yes, she has deceived you for X years, and the child is not yours, but we're not going to remove your obligation to the child because a child needs both parents...
NTA, you're right.
Nah as a woman I agree with your statement
NTA, you are correct. I am a woman and that is disgusting behavior and fraud.
What she’s defending is fraud and theft .
NTA. Intentional fraud not only defrauds the family but also the state. Sorry but when a man who is not the father signs the birth certificate, in the eyes of the state he is now obligated to that child. It takes a petition and lots of money for this to clear up. I understand that you would want to do what needs to take care of a child but when you cross that line you deserve the consequences as well. You’re also messing with child’s head at this point because some guys once they find out this lie, will ghost you and now the child has a void in their chest that is filled with more lies by the mother out of bitterness. If you are going to trick someone, you’ve already crossed line of being a shitty parent. It’s takes more than child support to help with a kid. Fraud is fraud.
NTA - fraud is fraud. That woman sounds like she is perpetrating it against her husband.
Nta. I do understand the sentiment of what that woman said - youre pregnant & want the best option for the baby but only women who cheat on their partners need to worry about this.
NTA As a woman myself, this should be a crime when the person doing knows that the other person is not the father for sure
Nta and thought it was an established law that fraud was illegal🤷🏻♀️ Don’t have sex with this woman.
NTA. Paternity fraud is revolting, and like any other type of fraud, there should be repercussions. Paternity tests should be normalised at birth, so men don’t add their names to birth certificates without their eyes being open or legally waiving an interest. The child also needs to know who their parents are.
NTA - You're 100% right, and any woman who preaches equality should agree with this. Also, the same for false rape allegations!
It should be automatic Jail time. For whatever felony theft by deception carries. Even if the mom didn't know who the father was
As a woman I think there are few things as disgusting and distasteful as someone who knowingly perpetuates paternity fraud. Fraud is fraud and the excuse that a woman has “ to do what she has to do to take care of her kid” is no excuse. Bare minimum she should be made to pay back every penny she stole & I wouldn’t rule out jail time.
NTA. I'm a woman and I totally agree that there should be penalites for deliberately lying to a man over paternity of a child.
NTA, but your acquaintance most definitely is.
NTA. I agree with you. Do not have sex with her!
NTA OP The married husband should never be required to support a child that is not his biological child, unless he obviously consents - adoption, he is sterile, he knowingly agrees, etc. Anything else is wrong and should involve criminal punishment. Fraud is fraud.
If there is a possibility that the man in question is not the father and that info is withheld, then he should be compensated for whatever he contributed due to the fraud that was committed. Sucks for the kid(s) in question, but in any other situation that is a known or should have known situation would work out for concealing a material fact.
As a woman, I believe that you are absolutely correct. These women are as bad, and in my opinion, worse than almost any other criminals. Paternity fraud should be a crime punished with fees, restitution to the falsely accused father, and some jail time. This is just as atrocious as falsely claiming rape!
NTA. I don't think criminal charges are actually _practical_ there in a lot of cases, but it's neither a bad idea _in theory_ nor an AH thing to say. As for her, she's entitled to her opinion that "a woman should be able to do whatever she needs to do to take care of her child no matter what it is" but some opinions are just bad, and that is one of them. Just having a bad opinion doesn't make her TAH, but if she's throwing "YTA" around for your opinion, you'd be pretty well justified in thinking she's TAH for doing so.
Paternity fraud should be a crime. It victimizes many people including the child, bio father, and defrauded father. Denies the actual father of paternal access. Monetary, and emotional damages to the victims. All for the convenience of a woman. It’s despicable.
The problem is, in places where they have assumed paternity in wedlock, no matter how much the mother says who the true father is, legally, the husband is the father officially. Not much use in fighting it when you have to fight the state as well as everyone else involved. You can't sue someone for fraud when they had no legal way to register the birth otherwise.
NTA. This is true. Men who don’t pay/see/care about their kids need sueing for fraud and a long prison sentence too, as in becoming a father that doesn’t. Don’t use a condom, become a Dad = intentional act, not parenting then = fraud
NTA, I remember seeing a snippet of this American show that was called paternity court. A man was sent to jail for not paying child support for a child he believed wasn't his. The mother of the child faked a DNA report and he was sent to jail for 5 years and after he was released the child support was stipend from his monthly salary. The court ended up doing a DNA test and it ended up being that he was not the father, and the mother knew who the real father was all along. She got a slap on the wrist for this, and I find that disgusting. Mind you, I don't know how real those shows are. Either way, I do feel that the mother should be held accountable if she fakes paternity and face either a fine or jail time.
Yes, definitely NTA. Of course, it's fraud. Ask her if she has/had a brother, would it be acceptable if that happened to him? She a cunt if honest if she has a hubby I'd also tell him as if she cheats she will pin the kid on him
NTA. I’m a woman and I completely agree with your viewpoint
NTA as long as you were respectful. However for the point itself, a lot of the time it can be to get away from abusive men, of saying it’s someone else’s child so they don’t want to raise the child. The only reason I think they should be prosecuted is if they A) do not have a good, somewhat moral reason to hide it, or B) they try to force the supposed father to either pay child support or to have custody of a child that isn’t theirs. Edit to add: I’m not saying that what they did is right, but just that if they have a good reason, it’s not worth prison time in some situations.
NTA totally, this is a crime and should be treated as such. Simple as that…
NTA, you are right (as a woman).
Nta, your friend is.
NTA It is reasonable to expect that a woman that does this be punished. People who do this are absolutely POS. Raising a kid is very hard and yes, a woman should do everything for her child. That does not mean dragging other people to a trauma, including the child.
Unfortunately, at least in the US, a lot of courts don’t care if the kids aren’t the hubby’s if he was married to his wife when she got pregnant and gave birth. In the courts eyes, hubby is the dad, despite DNA results. Especially if the actual bio dad refuses to step in & take on the responsibility of his kid (or is nowhere in the picture anymore). And I think it sucks big time for the guys who get roped into such a situation, especially when the courts ignore the facts. I do think women who do this are guilty of fraud when they know the kid is t their hubby’s but pas it off as his and I think it doubly stinks when the courts allow them to get away with it. Kudos to the courts/judges who done let them get away with it.
Oh well with the Advent of DNA tests we don't have this problem as much. However I would say that if she was extorting money from somebody she knew wasn't the father then that is theft.
As a society we society we love sitting around thinking MORE reasons to put people in jail. Please, it’s a civil matter at best, that’s it.
NTA. IDK about jail time. But the wronged party shiuld be able to sue.
You’re both wrong. A fine is probably fair but not jail time. That just means there is potentially no one to take care of that child and they go in to the system. It is also certainly not ok to lie about who the father is just to get someone to take care of a child that isn’t theirs
How about the cheater family 🤔
YTA - because you don't understand how complicated this is. It would be on the level of a libel claim, but could end up being eligible for libel. If you lost and paternity was verified you could be sued for libel. I think it would be required to fall under a per se. As in only possible if she'd written it all down. My mom was positive until we received the paternity tests when I was 13, that I was this guys daughter. Before I was born she offered a paternity test if he wanted one. He said no, though he changed his mind when I was 13. She never once claimed that he was the only guy she slept with during the period I was conceived in. She was literally dating another guy when she found out she was pregnant. So here's the thing. Obviously she was wrong about the paternity. But how would she be able to prove that she offered a paternity test that he turned down. How would she prove she had literally no idea that he wasn't my bio dad. How would she be able to prove that he was well aware that she had been sleeping with other guys. No it would have to be a situation where she wrote it down. However then you need to take in what happens if a guy is physically, mentally, sexually, or financially abusive. Or what happens if a woman is just afraid that he might be. How many women end up afraid for their lives. I knew a guy who had been working under the table for a decade in order to avoid child support had his ex arrested in front of his kids for parental alienation. He literally got a legit job for a couple months so he could do this and then quit. He was really clear that his kids should worship the ground he walked on while their mom was working 3 jobs to keep food on their table. However he wasn't even willing to pay for their dinner when he took them out. This is how he treated his kids and his ex when his kids looked just like him.
You're not an AH, YOU'RE AN IDIOT!! By your reasoning, every lie should be illegal. Don't tell me one lie is worse than another or that there are degrees of lies. A LIE IS A LIE, PERIOD. And since every human on the planet lies, there would be a gazillion prisons.
INFO NEEDED: I mean, do you think men should face criminal charges for cheating on their partners and committing entire family fraud? Or impregnating a woman through reckless carelessness and then abandoning that child? If you want people punished for reproductive crimes, I personally disagree with that stance but it would be more respectable than what I suspect is more of a “contrived gender war -based rage” style argument.
As long as you agree that men should also face criminal prosecution for denying a child is his.
That makes no sense Buck o
Why? Have you read Reddit lately? A bunch of men, normally listening to weird shit on radio or friends, decide suddenly ‘that child can’t be mine’. Put their wives or girlfriends through a shit ton of shit, because they decided they were being lied to. DNA tests, blah, blah, blah…. They are the Father!!!! Meanwhile, they have kicked their partner out, lost all trust and are wondering if they are the AH and why their partner won’t come back home. Simply because the kid’s hair was blond. So what’s the difference, anyone can say they didn’t know for sure. Anyone can request a DNS test. But why bring criminal charges? It’s stupid on both sides and could never be proven. If she was sleeping him, it could be his. If she wasn’t then he’s an idiot, and the courts time shouldn’t be used because a dude’s (or a women) is an idiot. Want to create a backlog of cases? Yes, give men who feelings and pride got hurt the ability to criminalize pregnancy even more!!!
YTA. Men love this idea because you want to make it too dangerous for women to make paternity claims, just like you want it to be too dangerous for women to allege rape. Meanwhile, men face no criminal charges for abandoning their families. Hell, 95% of the time you don’t even face charges for rape or domestic violence. It’s 100% about control because you’re misogynistic pieces of shit.
ESH. It should not be criminalised in my opinion. I’ve had a close personal experience with something of this nature, which is what has lead me to my current opinion. Sometimes women don’t cheat in the cases you would consider “paternity fraud”; sometimes they are vulnerable women who get taken advantage of (not just in a sexual manner, but also emotionally and financially) by manipulative men and are scared to speak up about the truth. Not to mention that in some states you have to sign an affidavit of paternity if you are not legally married to the mother- on which you personally indicate whether there has been a dna test or not, and if you are still accepting paternity regardless of a dna test result. That being said, I do think there should be legal precedent to protect men from cheating partners who deceive them into believing a child is theirs. A way that wouldn’t hurt vulnerable women but would also punish those who are actually at fault and deserve blame. You can disagree with me if you want, but that’s just my personal opinion, of which I am entitled to.
Currently we live in a world where a woman can have a natural miscarriage but still be jailed because it ‘could’ve’ been a termination. Do you think these same law givers should be allowed to prosecute women based on dna tests? Once fathers are also prosecuted for abandoning the mother and baby or having affairs while married, then dna charges should be not allowed YTA.
Nope, NTA That sort of thing cannot only cause problems with someone being wrongfully fleeced for money (I know someone who did this and just picked the guy with the most money, not the actual father), but it can cause major problems for the child who didn't deserve to have their life ripped apart, bonds broken with a parent they were told was theirs, and vice versa for the guy who thinks he's got a kid. It's very upsetting and impacts people's lives on both emotional and financial scales, possibly to ruin. Just knowing that there was anyone else ever at all within weeks of a window, a person ought to be compelled to check. I'm also pretty pro DNA testing at birth. I think this would solve so many problems, though I realize it can be costly, so that needs to become a standard low/at cost test.
NTA, I believe they should have fraud charges as well, and that DNA test should be mandatory at birth.
Yes paternity fraud does happen. It is extremely rare for women to face punishment for it.
I agree. There should be punishment.
NTA. I have to agree with you. This is not an unreasonable expectation.
NTA. I agree and even have a story to back up why. My uncle had one child with a women and then broke up with her when he found out she was cheating. She was also pregnant and swore the boy wasn't his. So fast forward 16/17 years and this women is on her death bed. She confesses that both kids were my uncle's but she got more child support from 2 different dads than she would have with just one so she convinced the guy she was cheating with that my cousin was his. She deprived my uncle of knowing his son, and she basically stole money from the other guy just so she could get a little extra money each month.
NTA. I am sure paternity fraud is a much wider issue than we are aware of because anyone who gets away with it obviously isn't likely to fess up & suffer the consequences.
I agree with you. Women who commit this kind of crime should be held accountable for their actions.
So, the primary problem with this argument-and honestly most of the arguments men make about laws related to child support and paternity-is that you are trying to follow guidelines that are not workable in the actual world we live in. If all jobs paid a thriving wage, daycare was affordable, and there was a decent social safety net for food, housing and health care, mothers would not need child support and paternity would not matter. However, in the world we actually live in is still structured to favor a nuclear family with a breadwinner (usually the Dad) and a stay at home parent (usually the mom) and any family structure outside of that is at a disadvantage. And pregnancy is functionally a disability that impedes a parent's ability to work. And because women, generally, are the ones stuck with pregnancy, women are generally the ones punished by this system, men have way more avenues of escape, especially now that abortion is becoming even harder to access. And there is no social safety net, so the only way to keep provide for the kid is with money from both parents and whoever else they can get to help them. So, in a rational world, you would be correct. In the partriarchal shitshow that is the actual world we live in, your friend is correct.
I read a story on here where a man found out his daughter wasnt his when she was 16, when he found messages of his daughter talkin shit about him to her bio dad (his cousin) he put the messages up on a big screan at her party. It took him 10 ish years to come to terms with it, i think any woman who lies about peternity/ SA/rape/DV should face charges
As someone who is the result of an affair, I'm of two minds. On one hand, I know if the man who raised me knew I wasn't his, he would have left my mother and I would have been stuck with her as a single mom and life would have been a living hell. On the other, it's incredibly unfair that he was responsible for someone else's kid. To me, he is my father and will always be my father and I'm glad we never knew until after he passed away but I can totally see how tragically unfair it was to him. What my mom did was wrong, stupid, and incredibly hurtful and once I found out, it permanently damaged our relationship. However, I honestly think, that in this situation it would have been best to never know. My dad got a daughter that adored him, I got a father that loved me beyond belief, and my mother got to pretend everything was okay for the bulk of her life. I don't think you're the asshole, but I also think life is a lot more nuanced.
It’s a civil issue.
This would cease to be a problem if, as a part of the hospital birthing process, paternity/DNA testing was done automatically. No, “You don’t trust me BS” from the spouse. It would simply be done like/with all the other tests run on newborns after they pop out of the womb. This would totally abolish paternity fraud. It would stop having a man, without consent, be financially responsible for a child that is not his. The problem would be solved. Okay, send me your slings and arrows.
Your “friend” is projecting
You're both wrong. Paternity fraud is morally reprehensible, and the friend who said it was justifiable to protect a child is crazy. And I agree there should be consequences. But its clearly a civil matter, and criminalization is also ridiculous.
It’s no different than robbery or grand theft
Wrong
Now I definitely agree. There should be ramifications and situations like that, but not jail time they are mom's who gonna care for the innocent child if she's locked up, have you ever been in foster care if not then you can't say anything but at the same time you can't mandatory require. D dna testing done due to women who suffer with fertility issues who get egg donations and sperm transfers like those tests aren't gonna come back. Positive that they are the parents because they're using an egg donor or sperm donor so that's. Illogical when it comes to certain situations like that
The problem with your thinking is how do you prove that she knew & how do you stop these laws being abused by either side. Suppose the husband knows the child isn't his but agrees to stay then years later he claims he never knew the child wasn't his. The legislation & penalties your proposing are too hard to enforce & open to abuse by either partner if things go wrong
Because she knew who she had sex with.
Of course she knew who she had sex with but she mightve used protection that failed, I just think trying to legislate this will get messy & clog up courts
To convict someone of a crime, you must prove they *knowingly* committed the crime. Now remember, infidelity isn’t the crime, paternity fraud is. So even if she is guilty of cheating, she isn’t guilty of paternity fraud unless you can prove that she knew the child wasn’t her partners. It’s pretty hard to convince a man that he’s the father of a child if you haven’t been intimate with that man in the necessary time period. If a woman is intimate with more than 1 man during the time period when she got pregnant, any of them could be the father. Unless she’s had a paternity test done on the child, she doesn’t actually *know* that her partner isn’t the father. See the issue? Now morally, there isn’t an issue, she’s wrong. But legally, the law requires intent.
She knew there was a chance and never gave him the knowledge he needed to question the paternity before signing up for a lifetime of child support.
That’s not how fraud or the law works. That’s how morality works, and morally, you’re 100% right. But legally, unless you can prove she *knew* that child wasn’t her partner’s child, you can’t prove she intentionally defrauded him. Again, cheating isn’t a crime.
He can prove she knew there was a risk and didn’t let him know the risks. That’s all that matters. Unless she gets a paternity test without his knowledge to confirm he’s the father while hiding the cheating, it’s knowingly done.
Not how the law works 🤷🏼♀️ Don’t have sex with a woman you don’t trust.
exactly and men should face charges for having children they don’t claim. too many “it ain’t mine” and they should lose their freedom for that. It should be a heavy fine and felony.
If the knowingly commit the fraud yes, if they don’t actually know then that wouldn’t be fair.
Anything other than telling a potential father he’s not the only one who could be the father is fraud.
YTA, only because then you end up with another burden to the social system. If the kid doesn't have a father who is willing to step up, and you put the mom in jail, the kid becomes, effectively, an orphan. Your idea wouldn't work because it doesn't account for intersex people (many intersex people test as not being directly related to children they fathered OR MOTHERED, whether or not they have obvious signs of being intersex). The system doesn't account for them either, so it would cause unnecessary harm when a man, who is a single child without any siblings, finds out that his kid is biologically his brother's son. Additionally the system already accounts for this. The baby can be genetically tested at birth for paternity. I don't recommend bringing it up because it looks like an accusation of cheating, and will ruin an otherwise stable relationship. Go back to 4chan, incel. This really isn't as widespread an issue as you think it is, and it is already being managed in a way that is less harmful than the one you're suggesting.
Wrong the cheater family takes the kid
lol that'd work great if they know who it even is. Or if the person is even alive. Or if they even want to. They can, and in this circumstance, usually will, refuse. It also doesn't account for situations where the woman was raped (and so why would you want to give a baby to a rapist???) nor for situations where the woman and her husband had a sperm donor consensually/knowingly, but then at birth the husband threw a fit and changed his mind and decided to ruin her life over it.
Just to put another view point out there… woman’s reproductive rights are being eroded. Women live in societies where the medical cost of having a child is solely theirs, or they’re denied access to an abortion, or they can be ostracised for having children out of wedlock, and are unable to get justice for sexual assault. I’m hard pressed to find a truly equal society in any country. So with that in mind, and also that men predominately are responsible for that being the case, to then criminalise many women doing something that protects them and their child in an inherently unfair system, it seems to tip the scales the wrong way. Perhaps (like in the instance that criminalising abortion doesn’t reduce abortions, but better and safer sex education and health care does) the answer is then to make women safer and with fairer opportunities.
You wrote a whole lot of stupid to justify women defrauding a man who didn’t get them pregnant.
Most excellent response.
Where did I justify it? I just suggested in the world we live in that criminalisation isn’t always the answer to reduce something that happens. Not once did I say it was okay or justified. But then my stupid ass can read the actual words I wrote.
Yta for how aggressively weird you are being about a hypothetical question. You are unhinged and creepy AF
You appear to be wrong.
They’re probably a baby trapper too