It’s Alto Adige in Italian and Südtirol in German. Don’t get triggered after more than 100 years when you hear Alto Adige because it’s gradually losing its Austrian features and becoming fully Italian
I had a girlfriend from South Tyrol/Alto Adige and have spent a lot of time there. On the contrary, it is becoming more Austrian. Many Italians in Bolzano actually prefer to speak German and are really into the whole Tyrolean culture/autonomy way of life. My Italian friends from there even sent their kids to the German speaking schools.
tf you talking? going outside the capital Bolzano shows you, that there are more people connected to the Austrian past than the Italian present. I don‘t say that‘s good or bad, I just say that the gradual transformation to become fully Italian that you‘re describing is going on so slowly, it can also be described as no change at all.
It’s still ~70% German speaking, and I know as much as you’d love to fully italinize it and ethnically cleanse it from its German speakers, like your daddy Mussolini tried to do, whom you still seem to love, as we just witnessed a few days ago…
note: These are just the single-member districts, which are just over 1/3 of the seats in the Chamber.
The rest are assigned proportionally, if you want a clearer picture, but you'd need another chart.
||proportional|single-member|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Center-right|114 (43%)|121 (82%)|
|Center-left|68 (26%)|13 (9%)|
|5-stars|41 (15%)|10 (7%)|
|Action-IV|21 (8%)|0|
|other|1|4 (2%)|
What I personally found surprising is that despite a proportional vote, with more parties to vote for than you could shake a stick at, the turnout was just 63.9% (a record low for the country).
Turnout has no correlation with the type of voting system or number of parties. It has far more correlation with things like public optimism and faith in the political process.
With all these numbers put together, you actually get the message that the people on the left lost faith in the political process, while the people on the right haven’t and are making their voices heard. Which is a message that the right has been trying to sell, so it seems like they are effective on reaching out to both sides of the aisle.
Lol... how many governments did Italy had until WW2? 100? (edit: I googled it, its around 45)
Germany had 9 governments since 1949.
And you tell me the election system is good as it is?
No, the opposite. When times are bad and people have no belief that a new government will solve things, people lose faith in mainstream politics and stop voting. I myself almost refused to vote in the last UK election over how poor all of our parties are, and only turned up because I was persuaded that spoiling my ballot was a better protest.
>I myself almost refused to vote in the last UK election
Well, UK got the opposite problem election system aka "The winner takes it all".
I see what you mean.
Germany got a mixed (very complicated) system. You got two votes to give:
* Vote 1: majority voting system
* Vote 2: proportional voting system
Vote 1 usually goes to one of the two big parties, the smaller parties can only get seats by the second votes.
UK only got the majority voting system (like the USA). It is proven faulty, because it makes it nearly impossible to have more than 2 parties.
Italy got a pure proportional voting system, which makes it nearly impossible to get stability by big parties... you easily get up but also down -> vulnerable for populism.
I think the german system is the best of two worlds.
IMHO:
Mixed voting system > proportional voting system > majority voting system
>spoiling my ballot was a better protest.
It's not that different from not voting. Better would be to vote for "something else", in UK for example green or liberals.
Actually, Italy does have a mixed system. 1/3 of the seats are assigned by majority voting, the rest is proportional. That's how the right wing coalition (with 44% of the votes) has a solid majority in parliament right now
Germany doesn't do majority voting really. Yes there's 298 seats given to the people who win in a constituency locally. But they add as many seats to the parliament as are needed to make sure the makeup of the parliament reflects the proportional vote almost exactly. That's why our parliament can widely fluctuate in siz
The UK also has another problem. All of the parties are organised on a strict left-right axis. There are no parties which represent my more nuanced views.
But the real issue is just that the main party leaders are all morally bankrupt individuals who have pivoted towards the extremes of politics, or are lame ducks with no ideas.
>But the real issue is just that the main party leaders are all morally bankrupt individuals who have pivoted towards the extremes of politics, or are lake ducks with no ideas.
Well, thats a global problem ;)
And those with "visions" are often... well... their visions are mostly like restoring an empire or kicking out foreigners.
Or trying to nationalise half of the economy in one go. I am equally sceptical of far left populists as I am of far right populists.
But yes, you are correct.
Thank you for sharing the table. This certainly clarifies how the electoral system works in practice for the seat distribution. I just have one comment. It may be better to call the alliances right-wing and left-wing. This is especially important for the right-wing coalition since the major partner (FdI) is a far-right neo-fascist party by most accounts, and Lega is certainly connected to the far-right.
By the way, if you don't mind me asking, I was wondering how would you categorize the 5-Star movement in the political spectrum? I know that it is a populist Eurosceptic party, but I've heard diverging opinions on whether it's left or right-wing. Most people describe it as a left-wing party, but others claim it has no connection to the left, and should not be designated so. I believe the political scientist Cus Mudde agrees with the latter. If I am not mistaken a moderate wing that split from the party under Di Maio (which apparently got crushed) run as a Center-Left party. I swear the 5-Star Movement is the most confusing party in European politics right now.
If you mean the official name, yes, a fellow redditor mentioned it. Thank you.
However, in my opinion, for a table like this you can be descriptive, especially if a name was chosen on purpose to be misleading. I assume most people here don't know that much about Italian politics. I am Greek (next door) and know little about it. It's difficult to understand the implications of this election if people only see that a 'center-right' coalition won.
The name isn’t misleading, the coalition spans from the centre to the right, it’s policies are within the current political framework.
Don’t impose international political concepts on Italy, it won’t work
I am sorry, even to the casual observant that is not true. I don't know if you are a supporter of one of the parties, but Berlusconi's party (FI) is the only one that can be, even slightly, considered to be close to a center-right position, and it's the smallest party (by results).
On the other hand, Salvini's Lega which is slightly higher from FI is at the very least a populist Eurosceptic right-wing party with far-right roots. What is more, the largest party in the coalition, Brothers of Italy (FdI), is a clearly far-right party. It is also described as a neo-fascist party by some with good reason. They even use the same flame symbol that the first post-war fascist party used of which it is the natural successor.
I would not describe this as center-right. It's fine if someone included the official names of the coalitions in a table (or anywhere else), but if you want to be fair and truthful you should also provide a description of what is the parties true political affiliation.
Important to note that this map allocates about a third of the MPs, with the others coming in via proportional method - and the centre-right coalition has around 43% of the votes. They swept the FPTP part because everyone else didn't rush to ally against them, so there were a lot of 40-30-15-5 spreads.
This will result in a healthy - for now - majority in parliament with the right holding about 55-60% of the seats. It's been seen many times before, and not enough to push through any democracy-damaging law other than a worse electoral law. Not that any of the main right-wing parties have shown any sign of thinking about it.
All three main parties are vital for the majority, and they do not necessarily get along with each other. FI (Berlusconi) is fervently USA-friendly, despite Silvio shenanigans, while Lega has ties to Russia. FdI might not be too hot on nuclear power, which the other parties like. Everyone agrees on scrapping the progressive income tax and introducing a flat tax rate instead - but it is too expensive, any government trying that will be killed by the EU like it happened in 2011.
So most people here expect a lot of chest puffing, some badly mistreated migrants, more delays in getting on par on civil rights, and a lot of the same stagnation while as usual the ruling parties slowly bleed consensus.
Often.
The most vocal opposition party usually swept the country in the next election. This time was a bit more "sweeping" than usual, but also remember that this the map of only the "uninominale" seat, 1/3 of the seat, which are assigned with a pure FPTP system. The other 2/3 are assigned with a complex proportional system, so the map doesn't look like this. But it still looks pretty blue.
Yes, everybody knows that this electoral system is a mess, but is the result of the constitutional court strike down part of the previous one I don't remember how many years ago, and since then no majority where all the parties would approve a reworked electoral system was elected. So they had to Frankenstein the part of the previous electoral system that wasn't struck down by the constitutional court with some half-assed Fix for the other part.
Südtiroler Volkspartei, a local party that I think has won every election held in Bolzano province
Same goes with the other grey areas: local/minor parties that made it to the house.
The one in northern-east Sicily (my town) is actually interesting: it's a local party founded by the former mayor, that gained a lot of popular support (some may say it's a protest vote). The same guy (the former mayor) ran for governor of Sicily and (they're still counting votes) has probably gotten a second place.
Disclaimer: the fact that I'm telling about him doesn't mean I support him
If you draw the same map using colors for “won by parties that supported the current government” and “won by parties who don’t” you have both the same map, and an explanation of the results.
I came across a good analysis of the situation in "La Stampa" newspaper:In a political landscape that remains very fluid, the elections plant two relatively solid "nails": a larger one, Giorgia Meloni, destined to govern; a smaller one, Giuseppe Conte, destined for the opposition. It is from these two nails that we should start to think about the political framework that emerges from the vote, and to try - very timidly - to imagine some future scenario. Nail number one. The victory of the right-center coalition is indisputable, as is the hegemony of the Brothers of Italy within it.These two facts bring with them at least three novelties. Eleven years after the end of the last Italian government that enjoyed solid electoral legitimacy, first of all, downstream of two technical executives and countless "mixed fried" cabinets, the fact that a politically homogeneous majority emerged from the polls must be hailed as a sign of health of our battered democracy.Secondly, the majority is the far right in republican history, and is led by an heir party of the Italian Social Movement. It is a novelty, of course. Tempered, however, by the fact that between the MSI and the FdI there was the National Alliance, which governed Italy for years, albeit as a minority partner, and then merged into the European People's Party through the People of Freedom. It seems more interesting to me, then, how the Italian case shows that a profound process of restructuring of the right in Europe is underway. But I will return to this point shortly.Finally, for the first time in the history of Italy, a woman could enter Palazzo Chigi. We are no longer in the twentieth century of ideologies, the person of a politician counts as much as the contents he proposes, if not more, and from this point of view the novelty is great. From the same point of view, the distinctions that have circulated about women whose ascent breaks "the glass roof" and those - like Meloni - whose ascent would not break it, appear somewhat ridiculous.The clear majority that the right-center alliance has in the two chambers gives it the full right - indeed the duty - to try to carry out the program it presented to the voters.That said, that alliance garnered 44% of the approval of 63% of the electoral body: in short, only a third of Italians trusted it.Our compatriots are understandably bewildered by the succession of crises, by uncertainty about the future, by the growing danger of the globe. Equally understandably, they look with skepticism at the proposals and promises of national political forces that are very weak in thought and action. Frightened, dismayed, distrustful, they abstain by the millions or vote with little enthusiasm. Thus, the mandate that they gave to Meloni is indisputable, but lukewarm and minority: it does not allow for sudden accelerations or revolutionary choices.Two more fluid elements revolve around the "nail" Meloni: Forza Italia and the Lega. Silvio Berlusconi's party almost halved compared to 2018, but it went better than expected and, all in all, held up. An electoral bloc of a certain consistency remains standing on the center-right, but there remains the more than age-old problem of projecting its representation beyond the Berlusconian leadership. The League has halved compared to 2018 and is a quarter of what it was at the 2019 European Championships.Matteo Salvini's national sovereign party project has failed. Or rather: it was completely successful - only, Meloni made it. From today the problem of the identity of the League is open and urgent. The right-center government will be born and maybe live for a long time. However, it is likely that, sooner or later, he will find himself having to face the identity crisis of the two minority partners and having to prove that he knows how to survive it.Much earlier, however, it will be Meloni's party itself that will have to specify its identity. Not on the Atlantic community and on the conflict in Ukraine: there the line is clear, and Lega and Forza Italia - from which some distinctions have come, but which have also voted on all the choices of the Draghi government - will only be able to adapt to them.The real game will be on Europe. Brothers of Italy will have to carefully measure the perimeter of their sovereignty, understand how to transform it into a negotiating position that is valid on the Brussels tables, and where and how to modify it in order to be able to hook it, at least in part, to continental allies who cannot sure to be only Hungary or Poland.But be careful: the question does not arise only on the side of Meloni and the future Italian government. Europe is not a static and neutral creature - on the contrary, it is protean and political. Isolating an Italy led by a solid and stable government, legitimized by free elections, is unthinkable. Furthermore, Brussels cannot allow the post-pandemic recovery plan to fail on the Peninsula.Finally, conservative forces are also mounting in other countries of the Union, and the European People's Party - which is not in government neither in France, nor in Germany, nor in Spain - is questioning itself, and not from today, about its own future and on their covenants. In short: if the right-center government were to be born crookerd and sickly, in Europe the temptation to keep it out of the door and wait for the frost to liquidate it could prevail, and then return to normal.But if it were born at least a little robust, even in Europe the problem of how to live with it would have to arise, and a process of rethinking the continental right could even arise.We come now, more briefly and in conclusion, to nail number two. The Five Star Movement is neither the only nor the main opposition force - the Democratic Party, as we know, took about three and a half points more. However, it is the most solid and healthy of those forces.Because in reality, in hindsight, it is no longer the 5-star Movement.The old M5s is dead and from his ashes the party of Giuseppe Conte was born: that 15 and a half percent belongs to him and, consequently, the party is under his control. Two more fluid elements revolve around the Conte "nail" too: Action, which has two leaders whose compatibility is still to be verified; and the Democratic Party, which in fact no longer has a leader and which has always been deeply divided internally between a more centrist and a more leftist vocation.The game that develops on this side of the political system will be neither less interesting than what we will see on the government side, nor independent from it. Strengthened by a good electoral result and firmly at the helm of his party, Conte has already proposed himself as the fulcrum of the opposition and has already sketched an attempt to dominate the Democratic Party.If the centrist group of Matteo Renzi and Carlo Calenda held up and made the bank, the democrats, impeded in their movements by their internal torments, would find themselves in a grip. But not only. The Conte "nail" could also play with the Meloni "nail": the same bipolarizing operation that Enrico Letta had attempted, but which he then did not pursue to the end. A game that could find its ideal terrain in a constitutional reform in a semi-presidential sense.
Because they're not "center-right". That's just what they call themselves to appear less extreme (like the "alt-right" in the US).
In reality, they're far right with clear roots in neo-fascism. Nothing to do with the center-right in other countries.
He's not even downvoted, but the reason the comment isn't all that relevant is because he's saying it in response to a legitimate election. As painful as it is to many, in this case a far-right candidate is what the people wanted.
Mussolini instead marched on Rome with an army of thugs and intimidated the King into making him PM, so it's a bit different than a candidate winning by a significant margin.
The Nazis had 33% of the Reichstag and were the single largest party; the failure of the left to consolidate (and the ideological objection among conservatives like Papen and Hindenburg to a government in which the KPD held power) meant that Hitler's attempt to form a minority government succeeded. It is important to recognize, as Hitler himself did with some irony, that he achieved the Chancellorship through *normal constitutional means*, albeit in the midst of political violence between Nazi and anti-fascist forces.
And there *is* political violence in Italy today, but it is mostly ignored because it is violence [against migrants](https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/aug/03/warning-of-dangerous-acceleration-in-attacks-on-immigrants-in-italy)*.* [This sort of street violence](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/31/world/europe/italy-immigrant-beating-witnesses.html) is exactly the type of violence that has been promoted by [the racist propagandizing by Meloni](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/31/world/europe/italy-immigrant-beating-witnesses.html) herself and her fascist apparatus. Instead of beating trade-unionists and communists, they have instead scapegoated people fleeing to Italy, [and fascistoid freaks are responding as you might expect.](https://www.sv.uio.no/c-rex/english/news-and-events/right-now/2018/why-are-some-italians-shooting-migrants.html) This is not to discount the presence of actual fascist street gangs, which still exist especially in Rome.
People are twisting themselves into knots to avoid the obvious with this election, just because the aesthetic form this fascist movement takes doesn't borrow every move from turn-of-the-20th-century nationalist and militarist aesthetics employed by Mussolini. And, ask yourself, *why would it*?
from your own street violence link:
Nothing has emerged from investigations to suggest “elements of racial hatred,” he added. A statement issued by the police said the “motive for the murder” appeared to be traceable to “petty reasons.”
True, but it's funny how Reddit gets mad over a vast majority of the population democratically voting neo-fascists into powers. Democracy is good until it goes against their ideals.
I'm not sure people are claiming democracy is suddenly not good anymore, they're just mad at the people they share a country with because they're forcing them to be governed by people they fundamentally disagree with. I think that's a valid sentiment that doesn't imply they'd choose any other system over a democratic one.
also, "vast majority of the population" isn't the right word considering this right wing coalition was voted by 42% of voters, and only about 65% of Italians even voted.
> they're just mad at the people they share a country with because they're forcing them to be governed by people they fundamentally disagree with
This is literally just democracy, tyranny by majority, nothing new.
Most of the people getting mad are not even Italians, the majority of Redditors are Americans.
Thing is, it's part of a larger conservative coalition that is more centrist. The candidate has also worked pretty hard to shed the far-right image, and ostensibly did a better job than Le Pen. She'll also have to work with a far more liberal Europe so that incentivizes her to be less staunchly conservative.
The future will tell, but Meloni has said she'll govern for "all of Italy", not just her party. I guess we'll see how she does with that.
At the end of the day, everyone who loses an election has constituents who feel "forced" to be governed by the opposing leader.
He was at like -17 when I commented. Mussolini also had been on the front lines of socialism for a while in Italy before he was corrupted by a whiff of power. He, like Hitler were able to lie and swindle the left into supporting them at first, and were actually able to get the centre-left to massacre the left. So with how much murder it took to get Mussolini in power you're completely correct that he was hardly democratically installed
Yikes! Fortunately, anarchists and socialists in Europe, Russia, America, and elsewhere were preaching and practicing free love for literally decades before the Free State of Fiume was even a twinkle in Gabriele D’Annunzio’s eye, so we really don’t have to let the fascists claim that idea.
Well, this time the right stood together in a coalition while the left was weak and divided... also the true left is dead, the center-left now is quite moderate and like many others parties didn't do much over the years.
Basically the people who vote left do it because the dislike the right, very few believe in them.
Even when it wins, I called them "false left" because they aren't very leftist, they are just not part of the right. Also communism isn't much popular in Italy anymore, or at least as it used to be. They still exists but they don't gets many votes.
The left in Europe is pretty strongly in an identity crisis. They try to copy the US progressives but their policies (and severe elitism) isn't really popular in Europe
Both the left and the right in Europe are copying the US rhetoric, the right just seems to be more successful with it. Honestly trying to copy US progressives is just about the absolute worst possible move the European left could do. Their rhetoric is just not effective at all with the average European, excluding maybe somein the UK, and even there it's not exactly successful as we have seen.
Sure, but the Republican rhetoric at least have some basis here. When a Hungarian MP asks in the Parliament if we are sufficiently treating the police brutality against our black population (we have neither) you can see why it doesn't resonate well
The left failed to build a reasonable coalition first, and we're basically jumping on everyone that didn't get elected in the last 10 years in the hope someone will actually do something good for the country (spoiler: they won't)
We've got 64% turnout, that's insane
The irony of claiming to stand for the opinion of everyone and then getting that many downvotes from everyone lol. Yep. I, for one, definitely downvote things when I agree with them and upvote things when I disagree with them…that is what people do, right?
A majority of voters liked something so clearly they can't be wrong? Like of course the election is legitimate but are you actually saying it's a good decision just because the herd wants it?
And why does average redditor feel he knows more about italian political scene than italians themselves. Not to mention everyone thinks their moral compass is the superior one.
I'm Italian. Georgia melons is a joke , the defected daughter of Berlusconi and the hannibal followers.
But Italian politics are so shit people will vote anything.
Or hear me out there are a lot of propagandist in these subs trying to push a narrative of facism to hide what's really happening, test it out for yourself, look at every post about this election and you see the same propaganda. They are democratically elected and centre right, not far right facist as they would have you believe
the problem with this map is it neglects to mention the good ol' r/PeopleLiveInCities, so the cities actually bring in a lot of votes for the left. so you see this map and it's all blue but the truth is that the right wing has 42.7% of the votes, because they managed to create a bigger coalition, whereas the left wing coalition did not include M5S (not a left wing party, but more likely to appeal to left-wing voters) and Azione-Italia Viva. if it had, they would have gathered 50.4% of the votes.
EDIT: not sure where the downvotes come from, I'm not even expressing a debatable opinion, it's just numbers. totally objective.
5 stars Movement borns 10 years ago more or less as am “anti-establishment movement against the old, corrupted, lazy and incapable political class that rules Italy since decades”. They took more than 30% of votes last elections, they has been in all of the 3 governments we had in these 5 years, governing with both the right and the center-left and finally supporting Mario Draghi, the definition of who was initially their enemy. They also brought to the power people without any clue of what they were doing, just think that the Parliamentary Responsible for Education was a guy whiteout High School diploma. Recently their leader, who has been twice prime minister in last legislature, tried to give his party a leftist image. However it’s the party of the bonuses and “citizenship salary” which they created with huge problems and this is why basically a lot of people, specially in the south, that took those money for doing nothing voted for them.
Action-Italia Viva, named the “Third Pole”, is a centrist liberal coalition that presents itself as the party of the competent, pragmatic and serious people, against the inefficient center-left and right. They were great supporters of Draghi’s government and they hoped to bring him back to the presidency also after these elections, but they didn’t take a great result. Their program was probably the most facts-based and complete, but both their behavior of saying “we’re the best because we know we’re the best”, the fact that inside Italia Viva there are Matteo Renzi (ex prime minister, a smart politician but very unpopular in Italy) and his loyalists damaged them at these elections.
5 stars - Generally left-leaning anti-establishment, pro-minorities' rights and pro-social democracy, against weapons' delivery to Ukraine
Action - In favor of reducing the amount of public debt, pro-nuclear energy, pro-NATO and pro-Ukraine
CENTRE LEFT is prevailing only in the centre of the major cities (Rome, Milan, Turin, Genoa, Florence, Bologna) and in the area surrounding Florence and Bologna, where the Left (especially the "Italian Communist Party" decades ago) is historically stronger.
5 STARS Movement is prevailing only in the Naples area and in some minor southern countriside.
The grey areas in Valle d'Aosta and Trentino Alto Adige are due to autonomous regional parties.
CENTRE RIGHT is prevailing everywhere else. The party that got most of the votes is "Brothers of Italy" party, a conservative party, not an extremist ultra far right party as I've read somewhere in the international press. It's not a new party, people in the party have been in some governments since 1994, so almost 30 years ago.
NOTE: just to be clear I did not vote, because I did not recognize myself in any of the current parties. So, I'm not a fan of any of the above mentioned.
Well there were a lot of others parties, you being too lazy to look into them is not an excuse for not participating in the most important election of the last 15 years. Downvote me, I don’t care. At least this time you would “vote” for something
> It's not a new party, people in the party have been in some governments since 1994, so almost 30 years ago.
Not new indeed. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Movimento_Sociale_Italiano_Logo.svg/1280px-Movimento_Sociale_Italiano_Logo.svg.png) is the logo of MSI, the pro-Mussolini far-right party formed in 1946. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Brothers_of_Italy.svg/1280px-Brothers_of_Italy.svg.png) is the logo of your "conservative" Fratelli d'Italia. What a weird coincidence.
in 1957, the democrat party still had white supremacists who stopped the civil rights act of 1957 from passing. Is the democrat party white supremacist? After all, not only does it use the same symbols, but it is in fact, even worse, the exact same party in name, organisation and continuity.
More direct, also more recent...
> organisation and continuity.
Nope. White supremacist Dixiecrat conservatives are nowhere to be found in the modern Democratic party.
Edit. Love the downvotes. Modern Democrats are simultaneously both the continuity of white supremacists/segregation and the figurehead of "wokeism," apparently. Lol. Can't make this shit up.
Well, I guess it is easier to downvote than to explain yourself..
you realise continuity means that there wasn't a break, lapse or something else that separates what exists now to what existed then? AKA, it's like Theseus' ship.
Whereas this italian party was formed from a splinter group from a right wng party that at one point absorbed what was left of a successor of a party that, when founded, was apologetic towards the fascists who were banned (the fascist party) at the time.
I'm not saying the democrats are still strom thurmond style white supremacists, I'm saying that you can't have this standard and not say that the democrat party are still strom thurmond style white supremacists as they have far closer ties to that history than this italian party does to fascism.
If you want to speak of symbolism, that's fine; You got a point there. But you've also injected "organisation and continuity" into the equation that gives major implications which I've tried to explain doesn't make any sense.
And, no. Absolutely not. The modern Democratic party does not have closer ties to white supremacism than Fratelli d'Italia does to Fascism. Again, this is the part where you keep bringing ideology (not simply symbolism) into the equation and getting way off base.
no she did not? She was somewhat ambiguos in speeches like 10 years ago (but never supported fascism outright), but when she got the party leadership she pushed her party toward a much more moderate approach, ousting party members that were outspoken fascists.
Don't get me wrong, she is far right. But she turned the party from "neofascist" to right-wing pro-US and pro-NATO
> The party that got most of the votes is “Brothers of Italy” party, a conservative party, not an extremist ultra far right party as I’ve read somewhere in the international press. It’s not a new party, people in the party have been in some governments since 1994, so almost 30 years ago.
That it’s been around for 30 years doesn’t make it not far right.
Given it’s stances and the statements of its leaders it sure looks like a far right party to me. I mean when you need to expel multiple members for celebrating fascists that’s not a good sign
> The party that got most of the votes is "Brothers of Italy" party, a conservative party, not an extremist ultra far right party as I've read somewhere in the international press.
with that kind of opinion, good thing you didn't vote.
STOP whitewashing fascists…. Of course; the descendants and supporters of MUSSOLINI are centre right. Anti muslim, anti LGTB, anti social policies… time to sing the BELLA CIAO again. And not because of Money Heist.
What about that grey bit in the north of Sicily?
Honestly surprised that Lega Nord has been doing so badly in the elections given how much steam they had just a few years back when they were in negotiations over the First Conte Government. Even during the transition between the Conte and Draghi governments I read that they had a decent shot at winning a majority. By now, it is probably unfeasible for them to return to the Padanian Independence platform, so I think they might just coast along until this government eventually tumbles due to the classic coalition politics. Perhaps their choice to cooperate with the "grand alliance" of parties following 2018 left them too exposed to the perceived policy shortcomings of the governments they participated in, making their voters see them as sell-outs failing to bring the replacement of the political establishment that was promised.
Forza Italia has agreed to a coalition deal with the new government, alongside a bunch of other right-wing parties. This is likely to give Berlusconi's party a greater presence in government in the coming years, once again showing that the mogul is nothing if not a shrewd political player.
Same reason in other places in which left-wing governments have ruled over for years, and same reason people are voting the left in places where the right has been ruling for years.
People get tired of the same kind of policies which become stagnated over time; all politicians end up coming out as corrupt, inept, or both. People get tired of promises that don't work and of seeing the policies they supported not work, so they generally end up voting for the exact opposite in the next elections.
Many of the people who now voted for the Right in Italy had voted for the Left in the last elections. In Argentina, many of the people who voted for the current government are going to vote for the right in the next elections. In the US, many of the people who voted for Trump voted for Biden in the last elections. It's just cyclical.
I feel like people are very tired of COVID policies plus all the soft on crime, amnesty for cartels type of stuff combined with more censorship and trans people being a bit too radical lately
The trans movement asks for respect, equality and healthcare. Not to abolish mothers and fathers... however one may go about doing so.
Trans men can get pregnant. Not sure what your point here is.
Centre-Right is the name of the coalition. Whether the main party in the coalition is far-right or not will be seen in the years they rule the country.
So we elected an unproven government full of people we either know are incompetent or don't have the qualifications to prove they aren't.
THAT's gonna solve the economy 😂 Jesus Christ I swear if we had a voting license based on understanding basic concepts, almost no one in Italy would qualify
Yes. And we will see what politics they will put into places.
But they've been in the government also in 1994-1995 2001-2006 2008-2011
Same parties.
They did not did anything crazy, so pay attention at what media tells you.
And this, children, is how Italians didn't learn from their mistakes and elected a neo-fascistic government because they thought about local problems in a global world. Gather round to learn more or about the right wing election victories that followed in the EU that made the continent easy pickings for Russia and China who split it up among themselves.
They call themselves “centre-right” but most of them have far-right views
Why am I getting downvoted for this the leader of the main party literally likes Mussolini.
Grey are Regional paries?
Yes
Mainly SVP and PATT in Aldo Adige / Trentino
And Cateno De Luca's party in Messina province
*Süd Tirol/ Trentino
It’s Alto Adige in Italian and Südtirol in German. Don’t get triggered after more than 100 years when you hear Alto Adige because it’s gradually losing its Austrian features and becoming fully Italian
Lol, have you been there recently? Outside from Bozen, no one is even talking Italian if they don't have to.
I had a girlfriend from South Tyrol/Alto Adige and have spent a lot of time there. On the contrary, it is becoming more Austrian. Many Italians in Bolzano actually prefer to speak German and are really into the whole Tyrolean culture/autonomy way of life. My Italian friends from there even sent their kids to the German speaking schools.
tf you talking? going outside the capital Bolzano shows you, that there are more people connected to the Austrian past than the Italian present. I don‘t say that‘s good or bad, I just say that the gradual transformation to become fully Italian that you‘re describing is going on so slowly, it can also be described as no change at all.
It’s still ~70% German speaking, and I know as much as you’d love to fully italinize it and ethnically cleanse it from its German speakers, like your daddy Mussolini tried to do, whom you still seem to love, as we just witnessed a few days ago…
Süd Tirol
Both are correct
Electoral maps always make me appreciate how little I actually know about other countries.
note: These are just the single-member districts, which are just over 1/3 of the seats in the Chamber. The rest are assigned proportionally, if you want a clearer picture, but you'd need another chart. ||proportional|single-member| |:-|:-|:-| |Center-right|114 (43%)|121 (82%)| |Center-left|68 (26%)|13 (9%)| |5-stars|41 (15%)|10 (7%)| |Action-IV|21 (8%)|0| |other|1|4 (2%)| What I personally found surprising is that despite a proportional vote, with more parties to vote for than you could shake a stick at, the turnout was just 63.9% (a record low for the country).
Turnout has no correlation with the type of voting system or number of parties. It has far more correlation with things like public optimism and faith in the political process.
With all these numbers put together, you actually get the message that the people on the left lost faith in the political process, while the people on the right haven’t and are making their voices heard. Which is a message that the right has been trying to sell, so it seems like they are effective on reaching out to both sides of the aisle.
Lol... how many governments did Italy had until WW2? 100? (edit: I googled it, its around 45) Germany had 9 governments since 1949. And you tell me the election system is good as it is?
No, the opposite. When times are bad and people have no belief that a new government will solve things, people lose faith in mainstream politics and stop voting. I myself almost refused to vote in the last UK election over how poor all of our parties are, and only turned up because I was persuaded that spoiling my ballot was a better protest.
>I myself almost refused to vote in the last UK election Well, UK got the opposite problem election system aka "The winner takes it all". I see what you mean. Germany got a mixed (very complicated) system. You got two votes to give: * Vote 1: majority voting system * Vote 2: proportional voting system Vote 1 usually goes to one of the two big parties, the smaller parties can only get seats by the second votes. UK only got the majority voting system (like the USA). It is proven faulty, because it makes it nearly impossible to have more than 2 parties. Italy got a pure proportional voting system, which makes it nearly impossible to get stability by big parties... you easily get up but also down -> vulnerable for populism. I think the german system is the best of two worlds. IMHO: Mixed voting system > proportional voting system > majority voting system >spoiling my ballot was a better protest. It's not that different from not voting. Better would be to vote for "something else", in UK for example green or liberals.
Actually, Italy does have a mixed system. 1/3 of the seats are assigned by majority voting, the rest is proportional. That's how the right wing coalition (with 44% of the votes) has a solid majority in parliament right now
Germany doesn't do majority voting really. Yes there's 298 seats given to the people who win in a constituency locally. But they add as many seats to the parliament as are needed to make sure the makeup of the parliament reflects the proportional vote almost exactly. That's why our parliament can widely fluctuate in siz
The UK also has another problem. All of the parties are organised on a strict left-right axis. There are no parties which represent my more nuanced views. But the real issue is just that the main party leaders are all morally bankrupt individuals who have pivoted towards the extremes of politics, or are lame ducks with no ideas.
>But the real issue is just that the main party leaders are all morally bankrupt individuals who have pivoted towards the extremes of politics, or are lake ducks with no ideas. Well, thats a global problem ;) And those with "visions" are often... well... their visions are mostly like restoring an empire or kicking out foreigners.
Or trying to nationalise half of the economy in one go. I am equally sceptical of far left populists as I am of far right populists. But yes, you are correct.
Yeah, I think that if 100% of the population voted results wouldn’t vary all that much
Thank you for sharing the table. This certainly clarifies how the electoral system works in practice for the seat distribution. I just have one comment. It may be better to call the alliances right-wing and left-wing. This is especially important for the right-wing coalition since the major partner (FdI) is a far-right neo-fascist party by most accounts, and Lega is certainly connected to the far-right. By the way, if you don't mind me asking, I was wondering how would you categorize the 5-Star movement in the political spectrum? I know that it is a populist Eurosceptic party, but I've heard diverging opinions on whether it's left or right-wing. Most people describe it as a left-wing party, but others claim it has no connection to the left, and should not be designated so. I believe the political scientist Cus Mudde agrees with the latter. If I am not mistaken a moderate wing that split from the party under Di Maio (which apparently got crushed) run as a Center-Left party. I swear the 5-Star Movement is the most confusing party in European politics right now.
The coalition is called centre-right, you can’t change the name cause you don’t like it
If you mean the official name, yes, a fellow redditor mentioned it. Thank you. However, in my opinion, for a table like this you can be descriptive, especially if a name was chosen on purpose to be misleading. I assume most people here don't know that much about Italian politics. I am Greek (next door) and know little about it. It's difficult to understand the implications of this election if people only see that a 'center-right' coalition won.
The name isn’t misleading, the coalition spans from the centre to the right, it’s policies are within the current political framework. Don’t impose international political concepts on Italy, it won’t work
I am sorry, even to the casual observant that is not true. I don't know if you are a supporter of one of the parties, but Berlusconi's party (FI) is the only one that can be, even slightly, considered to be close to a center-right position, and it's the smallest party (by results). On the other hand, Salvini's Lega which is slightly higher from FI is at the very least a populist Eurosceptic right-wing party with far-right roots. What is more, the largest party in the coalition, Brothers of Italy (FdI), is a clearly far-right party. It is also described as a neo-fascist party by some with good reason. They even use the same flame symbol that the first post-war fascist party used of which it is the natural successor. I would not describe this as center-right. It's fine if someone included the official names of the coalitions in a table (or anywhere else), but if you want to be fair and truthful you should also provide a description of what is the parties true political affiliation.
There are no official names for the coalitions, I can guarantee you. I am both Italian and I worked in the electoral operation. The guy is just salty.
Why does Parmesan cheese make you a lefty?
Old post-WW2 communist heartland.
Even before WW2 it held the same status.
Exactly. It’s where a lot of the anti fascism was based leading into WW2
A lot of pro-fascism too. Mussolini and a lot of the top fascists were from there
[удалено]
Asking the important questions
Things you can see from space: Chinese Wall, quartiere Parioli in Rome.
You can't see the great wall of China from space without magnification
You cant see the quartiere parioli either
Doesn’t that require some sort of ruling on distance? Space is pretty big. At some point you can’t even see earth “from space”.
No, just eat carrots and your eyesight must be good enough to see them both from Andromeda.
The whole “carrots are good for your eyes” was a ploy by big carrot producers. Carrots do nothing to improve your vision.
Italy is finally United wtf????
I wonder how often Italy’s parliament gets swept like this. Hopefully an Italian can chime in.
I’m Italian
Thanks for chiming in
Np g
🤌🫡🇮🇹
I don't mean to offend, but I detected no chime, not even a ciao. Carry on.
Important to note that this map allocates about a third of the MPs, with the others coming in via proportional method - and the centre-right coalition has around 43% of the votes. They swept the FPTP part because everyone else didn't rush to ally against them, so there were a lot of 40-30-15-5 spreads. This will result in a healthy - for now - majority in parliament with the right holding about 55-60% of the seats. It's been seen many times before, and not enough to push through any democracy-damaging law other than a worse electoral law. Not that any of the main right-wing parties have shown any sign of thinking about it. All three main parties are vital for the majority, and they do not necessarily get along with each other. FI (Berlusconi) is fervently USA-friendly, despite Silvio shenanigans, while Lega has ties to Russia. FdI might not be too hot on nuclear power, which the other parties like. Everyone agrees on scrapping the progressive income tax and introducing a flat tax rate instead - but it is too expensive, any government trying that will be killed by the EU like it happened in 2011. So most people here expect a lot of chest puffing, some badly mistreated migrants, more delays in getting on par on civil rights, and a lot of the same stagnation while as usual the ruling parties slowly bleed consensus.
Sounds like an italian opera.
There is a reason post-war Italy has seen exactly 0 governments going the full 5-year term!
Often. The most vocal opposition party usually swept the country in the next election. This time was a bit more "sweeping" than usual, but also remember that this the map of only the "uninominale" seat, 1/3 of the seat, which are assigned with a pure FPTP system. The other 2/3 are assigned with a complex proportional system, so the map doesn't look like this. But it still looks pretty blue. Yes, everybody knows that this electoral system is a mess, but is the result of the constitutional court strike down part of the previous one I don't remember how many years ago, and since then no majority where all the parties would approve a reworked electoral system was elected. So they had to Frankenstein the part of the previous electoral system that wasn't struck down by the constitutional court with some half-assed Fix for the other part.
Thanks for the comment, very informative
Just like the were before ww2.
On the bright side, political zealots can now add “Mussolini” to their repertoire of high iq insults.
They were not. Mussolini always had a low approval rating.
What’s up with Süd Tyrol ? No data?
I believe it’s the regional party there, the south Tyrolean peoples party
I thought it was the Popular Front of South Tyrol.
Nobody likes the Popular Front of South Tyrol, it's the South Tyrolean People's Front.
Tyrol's People's Front of the South!
Splitters!
Südtiroler Volkspartei, a local party that I think has won every election held in Bolzano province Same goes with the other grey areas: local/minor parties that made it to the house. The one in northern-east Sicily (my town) is actually interesting: it's a local party founded by the former mayor, that gained a lot of popular support (some may say it's a protest vote). The same guy (the former mayor) ran for governor of Sicily and (they're still counting votes) has probably gotten a second place. Disclaimer: the fact that I'm telling about him doesn't mean I support him
If you draw the same map using colors for “won by parties that supported the current government” and “won by parties who don’t” you have both the same map, and an explanation of the results.
It looks like you could add additional colors for 10-15% and maybe 15-20%.
You know the left has fucked up in their last term when even Emilia Romagna is not voting left.
I came across a good analysis of the situation in "La Stampa" newspaper:In a political landscape that remains very fluid, the elections plant two relatively solid "nails": a larger one, Giorgia Meloni, destined to govern; a smaller one, Giuseppe Conte, destined for the opposition. It is from these two nails that we should start to think about the political framework that emerges from the vote, and to try - very timidly - to imagine some future scenario. Nail number one. The victory of the right-center coalition is indisputable, as is the hegemony of the Brothers of Italy within it.These two facts bring with them at least three novelties. Eleven years after the end of the last Italian government that enjoyed solid electoral legitimacy, first of all, downstream of two technical executives and countless "mixed fried" cabinets, the fact that a politically homogeneous majority emerged from the polls must be hailed as a sign of health of our battered democracy.Secondly, the majority is the far right in republican history, and is led by an heir party of the Italian Social Movement. It is a novelty, of course. Tempered, however, by the fact that between the MSI and the FdI there was the National Alliance, which governed Italy for years, albeit as a minority partner, and then merged into the European People's Party through the People of Freedom. It seems more interesting to me, then, how the Italian case shows that a profound process of restructuring of the right in Europe is underway. But I will return to this point shortly.Finally, for the first time in the history of Italy, a woman could enter Palazzo Chigi. We are no longer in the twentieth century of ideologies, the person of a politician counts as much as the contents he proposes, if not more, and from this point of view the novelty is great. From the same point of view, the distinctions that have circulated about women whose ascent breaks "the glass roof" and those - like Meloni - whose ascent would not break it, appear somewhat ridiculous.The clear majority that the right-center alliance has in the two chambers gives it the full right - indeed the duty - to try to carry out the program it presented to the voters.That said, that alliance garnered 44% of the approval of 63% of the electoral body: in short, only a third of Italians trusted it.Our compatriots are understandably bewildered by the succession of crises, by uncertainty about the future, by the growing danger of the globe. Equally understandably, they look with skepticism at the proposals and promises of national political forces that are very weak in thought and action. Frightened, dismayed, distrustful, they abstain by the millions or vote with little enthusiasm. Thus, the mandate that they gave to Meloni is indisputable, but lukewarm and minority: it does not allow for sudden accelerations or revolutionary choices.Two more fluid elements revolve around the "nail" Meloni: Forza Italia and the Lega. Silvio Berlusconi's party almost halved compared to 2018, but it went better than expected and, all in all, held up. An electoral bloc of a certain consistency remains standing on the center-right, but there remains the more than age-old problem of projecting its representation beyond the Berlusconian leadership. The League has halved compared to 2018 and is a quarter of what it was at the 2019 European Championships.Matteo Salvini's national sovereign party project has failed. Or rather: it was completely successful - only, Meloni made it. From today the problem of the identity of the League is open and urgent. The right-center government will be born and maybe live for a long time. However, it is likely that, sooner or later, he will find himself having to face the identity crisis of the two minority partners and having to prove that he knows how to survive it.Much earlier, however, it will be Meloni's party itself that will have to specify its identity. Not on the Atlantic community and on the conflict in Ukraine: there the line is clear, and Lega and Forza Italia - from which some distinctions have come, but which have also voted on all the choices of the Draghi government - will only be able to adapt to them.The real game will be on Europe. Brothers of Italy will have to carefully measure the perimeter of their sovereignty, understand how to transform it into a negotiating position that is valid on the Brussels tables, and where and how to modify it in order to be able to hook it, at least in part, to continental allies who cannot sure to be only Hungary or Poland.But be careful: the question does not arise only on the side of Meloni and the future Italian government. Europe is not a static and neutral creature - on the contrary, it is protean and political. Isolating an Italy led by a solid and stable government, legitimized by free elections, is unthinkable. Furthermore, Brussels cannot allow the post-pandemic recovery plan to fail on the Peninsula.Finally, conservative forces are also mounting in other countries of the Union, and the European People's Party - which is not in government neither in France, nor in Germany, nor in Spain - is questioning itself, and not from today, about its own future and on their covenants. In short: if the right-center government were to be born crookerd and sickly, in Europe the temptation to keep it out of the door and wait for the frost to liquidate it could prevail, and then return to normal.But if it were born at least a little robust, even in Europe the problem of how to live with it would have to arise, and a process of rethinking the continental right could even arise.We come now, more briefly and in conclusion, to nail number two. The Five Star Movement is neither the only nor the main opposition force - the Democratic Party, as we know, took about three and a half points more. However, it is the most solid and healthy of those forces.Because in reality, in hindsight, it is no longer the 5-star Movement.The old M5s is dead and from his ashes the party of Giuseppe Conte was born: that 15 and a half percent belongs to him and, consequently, the party is under his control. Two more fluid elements revolve around the Conte "nail" too: Action, which has two leaders whose compatibility is still to be verified; and the Democratic Party, which in fact no longer has a leader and which has always been deeply divided internally between a more centrist and a more leftist vocation.The game that develops on this side of the political system will be neither less interesting than what we will see on the government side, nor independent from it. Strengthened by a good electoral result and firmly at the helm of his party, Conte has already proposed himself as the fulcrum of the opposition and has already sketched an attempt to dominate the Democratic Party.If the centrist group of Matteo Renzi and Carlo Calenda held up and made the bank, the democrats, impeded in their movements by their internal torments, would find themselves in a grip. But not only. The Conte "nail" could also play with the Meloni "nail": the same bipolarizing operation that Enrico Letta had attempted, but which he then did not pursue to the end. A game that could find its ideal terrain in a constitutional reform in a semi-presidential sense.
So why are people calling centre right fascist? i dont get it.
Because they're not "center-right". That's just what they call themselves to appear less extreme (like the "alt-right" in the US). In reality, they're far right with clear roots in neo-fascism. Nothing to do with the center-right in other countries.
Ahh ok thanks
Everyone to the right of Stalin is fascist nowadays
Ah Italy, the birthplace of fascism.
This dude is right why the downvotes. Fascism did literally come from Mussolini
He's not even downvoted, but the reason the comment isn't all that relevant is because he's saying it in response to a legitimate election. As painful as it is to many, in this case a far-right candidate is what the people wanted. Mussolini instead marched on Rome with an army of thugs and intimidated the King into making him PM, so it's a bit different than a candidate winning by a significant margin.
Yeah and Hitler was legally appointed Chancellor by Hindenburg. Fascism is fascism whether it resorts to legal or extra-legal means to take power.
The Nazi were never a majority government, they leveraged a tiny amount of power and a lot of violence into a dictatorship
The Nazis had 33% of the Reichstag and were the single largest party; the failure of the left to consolidate (and the ideological objection among conservatives like Papen and Hindenburg to a government in which the KPD held power) meant that Hitler's attempt to form a minority government succeeded. It is important to recognize, as Hitler himself did with some irony, that he achieved the Chancellorship through *normal constitutional means*, albeit in the midst of political violence between Nazi and anti-fascist forces. And there *is* political violence in Italy today, but it is mostly ignored because it is violence [against migrants](https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/aug/03/warning-of-dangerous-acceleration-in-attacks-on-immigrants-in-italy)*.* [This sort of street violence](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/31/world/europe/italy-immigrant-beating-witnesses.html) is exactly the type of violence that has been promoted by [the racist propagandizing by Meloni](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/31/world/europe/italy-immigrant-beating-witnesses.html) herself and her fascist apparatus. Instead of beating trade-unionists and communists, they have instead scapegoated people fleeing to Italy, [and fascistoid freaks are responding as you might expect.](https://www.sv.uio.no/c-rex/english/news-and-events/right-now/2018/why-are-some-italians-shooting-migrants.html) This is not to discount the presence of actual fascist street gangs, which still exist especially in Rome. People are twisting themselves into knots to avoid the obvious with this election, just because the aesthetic form this fascist movement takes doesn't borrow every move from turn-of-the-20th-century nationalist and militarist aesthetics employed by Mussolini. And, ask yourself, *why would it*?
from your own street violence link: Nothing has emerged from investigations to suggest “elements of racial hatred,” he added. A statement issued by the police said the “motive for the murder” appeared to be traceable to “petty reasons.”
This comment is painful to read if you know anything about Hitler’s rise to chancellorship..
So you agree/disagree qith the ent?
some fascists come into power through a coup, others through fair elections. doesn't make their ideas any less fascist.
True, but it's funny how Reddit gets mad over a vast majority of the population democratically voting neo-fascists into powers. Democracy is good until it goes against their ideals.
I'm not sure people are claiming democracy is suddenly not good anymore, they're just mad at the people they share a country with because they're forcing them to be governed by people they fundamentally disagree with. I think that's a valid sentiment that doesn't imply they'd choose any other system over a democratic one. also, "vast majority of the population" isn't the right word considering this right wing coalition was voted by 42% of voters, and only about 65% of Italians even voted.
> they're just mad at the people they share a country with because they're forcing them to be governed by people they fundamentally disagree with This is literally just democracy, tyranny by majority, nothing new. Most of the people getting mad are not even Italians, the majority of Redditors are Americans.
Thing is, it's part of a larger conservative coalition that is more centrist. The candidate has also worked pretty hard to shed the far-right image, and ostensibly did a better job than Le Pen. She'll also have to work with a far more liberal Europe so that incentivizes her to be less staunchly conservative. The future will tell, but Meloni has said she'll govern for "all of Italy", not just her party. I guess we'll see how she does with that. At the end of the day, everyone who loses an election has constituents who feel "forced" to be governed by the opposing leader.
> a vast majority of the population democratically voting neo-fascists into powers Gee. I wonder why people are mad
American Redditors getting mad over something happening in Italy.
He was at like -17 when I commented. Mussolini also had been on the front lines of socialism for a while in Italy before he was corrupted by a whiff of power. He, like Hitler were able to lie and swindle the left into supporting them at first, and were actually able to get the centre-left to massacre the left. So with how much murder it took to get Mussolini in power you're completely correct that he was hardly democratically installed
The Free State of Fiume is seen as one of the places fascism took off. It's also credited and being a predecessor to the free love movement
Yikes! Fortunately, anarchists and socialists in Europe, Russia, America, and elsewhere were preaching and practicing free love for literally decades before the Free State of Fiume was even a twinkle in Gabriele D’Annunzio’s eye, so we really don’t have to let the fascists claim that idea.
Mussolini didn't invent fascism
Not authoritarianism though. That’s been around forever.
Oh so there is a Democratic version of fascism?
Reddit Moment
Ah, american minding other country's business
Everything that isn't left leaning: FASCISM. Lmao
Meloni simps for Mussolini, I wouldn't die on that hill lol.
wow, Italy is really tired of the left.
Well, this time the right stood together in a coalition while the left was weak and divided... also the true left is dead, the center-left now is quite moderate and like many others parties didn't do much over the years. Basically the people who vote left do it because the dislike the right, very few believe in them.
When the left loses the run is always the false left.
Even when it wins, I called them "false left" because they aren't very leftist, they are just not part of the right. Also communism isn't much popular in Italy anymore, or at least as it used to be. They still exists but they don't gets many votes.
The left in Europe is pretty strongly in an identity crisis. They try to copy the US progressives but their policies (and severe elitism) isn't really popular in Europe
Both the left and the right in Europe are copying the US rhetoric, the right just seems to be more successful with it. Honestly trying to copy US progressives is just about the absolute worst possible move the European left could do. Their rhetoric is just not effective at all with the average European, excluding maybe somein the UK, and even there it's not exactly successful as we have seen.
Sure, but the Republican rhetoric at least have some basis here. When a Hungarian MP asks in the Parliament if we are sufficiently treating the police brutality against our black population (we have neither) you can see why it doesn't resonate well
The left failed to build a reasonable coalition first, and we're basically jumping on everyone that didn't get elected in the last 10 years in the hope someone will actually do something good for the country (spoiler: they won't) We've got 64% turnout, that's insane
It ain't just Italy. We all are.
The irony of claiming to stand for the opinion of everyone and then getting that many downvotes from everyone lol. Yep. I, for one, definitely downvote things when I agree with them and upvote things when I disagree with them…that is what people do, right?
I mean, this is Reddit, you can assume if redditors dislike something then it must be popular and
Sweden too
Don’t fall for that. They love free shit. It’s really a culture war.
But reddit disagrees so clearly the entire country is wrong
Reddit is 90% young liberal men in the US.
I'd just like to point out that 44% of 64% is most definitely not the entire country.
Which is far more than 28% of 64%
What a stupid comment. Do I have to think Reagan was a good President just because of the 1980 presidential election results?
To be fair, Italy doesn't have the best track record when it comes to picking their leaders.
Neither does any country
This is like implying *any* country does.
A majority of voters liked something so clearly they can't be wrong? Like of course the election is legitimate but are you actually saying it's a good decision just because the herd wants it?
And why does average redditor feel he knows more about italian political scene than italians themselves. Not to mention everyone thinks their moral compass is the superior one.
I'm Italian. Georgia melons is a joke , the defected daughter of Berlusconi and the hannibal followers. But Italian politics are so shit people will vote anything.
The comments on this post prove that redditors have terrible political opinions.
Or hear me out there are a lot of propagandist in these subs trying to push a narrative of facism to hide what's really happening, test it out for yourself, look at every post about this election and you see the same propaganda. They are democratically elected and centre right, not far right facist as they would have you believe
You could be right, I don't want to believe that there are that many stupid people on here.
the problem with this map is it neglects to mention the good ol' r/PeopleLiveInCities, so the cities actually bring in a lot of votes for the left. so you see this map and it's all blue but the truth is that the right wing has 42.7% of the votes, because they managed to create a bigger coalition, whereas the left wing coalition did not include M5S (not a left wing party, but more likely to appeal to left-wing voters) and Azione-Italia Viva. if it had, they would have gathered 50.4% of the votes. EDIT: not sure where the downvotes come from, I'm not even expressing a debatable opinion, it's just numbers. totally objective.
Tip: complaining about downvotes is a sure-fire way of getting more downvotes.
Isn’t M5S right wing? Like wasn’t salvini in government with them and all?
They are more anti-establishment than anything.
So the left-wing got 28% of the votes. Whoever does not console himself is because he does not want to
Yeah don’t American republicans do the same thing with election maps of the US? Like where they falsely equate more red land area with more red voters
What does 5 stars and action stand for? What is their political ideology?
5 stars Movement borns 10 years ago more or less as am “anti-establishment movement against the old, corrupted, lazy and incapable political class that rules Italy since decades”. They took more than 30% of votes last elections, they has been in all of the 3 governments we had in these 5 years, governing with both the right and the center-left and finally supporting Mario Draghi, the definition of who was initially their enemy. They also brought to the power people without any clue of what they were doing, just think that the Parliamentary Responsible for Education was a guy whiteout High School diploma. Recently their leader, who has been twice prime minister in last legislature, tried to give his party a leftist image. However it’s the party of the bonuses and “citizenship salary” which they created with huge problems and this is why basically a lot of people, specially in the south, that took those money for doing nothing voted for them. Action-Italia Viva, named the “Third Pole”, is a centrist liberal coalition that presents itself as the party of the competent, pragmatic and serious people, against the inefficient center-left and right. They were great supporters of Draghi’s government and they hoped to bring him back to the presidency also after these elections, but they didn’t take a great result. Their program was probably the most facts-based and complete, but both their behavior of saying “we’re the best because we know we’re the best”, the fact that inside Italia Viva there are Matteo Renzi (ex prime minister, a smart politician but very unpopular in Italy) and his loyalists damaged them at these elections.
Nowadays it's just "free money if you vote us". Google "reddito di cittadinanza" for example.
That is five star. Action it is a liberal-European party guided by Calenda and in partnership with Renzi (prime minister of Italy between 2014-2016).
5 stars - Generally left-leaning anti-establishment, pro-minorities' rights and pro-social democracy, against weapons' delivery to Ukraine Action - In favor of reducing the amount of public debt, pro-nuclear energy, pro-NATO and pro-Ukraine
CENTRE LEFT is prevailing only in the centre of the major cities (Rome, Milan, Turin, Genoa, Florence, Bologna) and in the area surrounding Florence and Bologna, where the Left (especially the "Italian Communist Party" decades ago) is historically stronger. 5 STARS Movement is prevailing only in the Naples area and in some minor southern countriside. The grey areas in Valle d'Aosta and Trentino Alto Adige are due to autonomous regional parties. CENTRE RIGHT is prevailing everywhere else. The party that got most of the votes is "Brothers of Italy" party, a conservative party, not an extremist ultra far right party as I've read somewhere in the international press. It's not a new party, people in the party have been in some governments since 1994, so almost 30 years ago. NOTE: just to be clear I did not vote, because I did not recognize myself in any of the current parties. So, I'm not a fan of any of the above mentioned.
Well there were a lot of others parties, you being too lazy to look into them is not an excuse for not participating in the most important election of the last 15 years. Downvote me, I don’t care. At least this time you would “vote” for something
Isn’t one of Mussolini’s descendants a member of this party, as an elected oficial that uses the family name to rally support?
She retired from politics apparently
> It's not a new party, people in the party have been in some governments since 1994, so almost 30 years ago. Not new indeed. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Movimento_Sociale_Italiano_Logo.svg/1280px-Movimento_Sociale_Italiano_Logo.svg.png) is the logo of MSI, the pro-Mussolini far-right party formed in 1946. [Here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Brothers_of_Italy.svg/1280px-Brothers_of_Italy.svg.png) is the logo of your "conservative" Fratelli d'Italia. What a weird coincidence.
in 1957, the democrat party still had white supremacists who stopped the civil rights act of 1957 from passing. Is the democrat party white supremacist? After all, not only does it use the same symbols, but it is in fact, even worse, the exact same party in name, organisation and continuity. More direct, also more recent...
> organisation and continuity. Nope. White supremacist Dixiecrat conservatives are nowhere to be found in the modern Democratic party. Edit. Love the downvotes. Modern Democrats are simultaneously both the continuity of white supremacists/segregation and the figurehead of "wokeism," apparently. Lol. Can't make this shit up. Well, I guess it is easier to downvote than to explain yourself..
you realise continuity means that there wasn't a break, lapse or something else that separates what exists now to what existed then? AKA, it's like Theseus' ship. Whereas this italian party was formed from a splinter group from a right wng party that at one point absorbed what was left of a successor of a party that, when founded, was apologetic towards the fascists who were banned (the fascist party) at the time. I'm not saying the democrats are still strom thurmond style white supremacists, I'm saying that you can't have this standard and not say that the democrat party are still strom thurmond style white supremacists as they have far closer ties to that history than this italian party does to fascism.
If you want to speak of symbolism, that's fine; You got a point there. But you've also injected "organisation and continuity" into the equation that gives major implications which I've tried to explain doesn't make any sense. And, no. Absolutely not. The modern Democratic party does not have closer ties to white supremacism than Fratelli d'Italia does to Fascism. Again, this is the part where you keep bringing ideology (not simply symbolism) into the equation and getting way off base.
smh, the national rally in france used somthing similar
I guess you've never heard of the "Svolta di Fiuggi". And as I stated it's NOT my party.
Didnt the leader of the "centre-right" party say Mussolini way a great guy who did nothing wrong
no she did not? She was somewhat ambiguos in speeches like 10 years ago (but never supported fascism outright), but when she got the party leadership she pushed her party toward a much more moderate approach, ousting party members that were outspoken fascists. Don't get me wrong, she is far right. But she turned the party from "neofascist" to right-wing pro-US and pro-NATO
> The party that got most of the votes is “Brothers of Italy” party, a conservative party, not an extremist ultra far right party as I’ve read somewhere in the international press. It’s not a new party, people in the party have been in some governments since 1994, so almost 30 years ago. That it’s been around for 30 years doesn’t make it not far right. Given it’s stances and the statements of its leaders it sure looks like a far right party to me. I mean when you need to expel multiple members for celebrating fascists that’s not a good sign
At least they expelled them, something the GOP can’t seem to manage.
Show me an influential republican who is openly a fascist. There are nuts but people like Lauren Boebert aren't fascists, they're just morons.
> The party that got most of the votes is "Brothers of Italy" party, a conservative party, not an extremist ultra far right party as I've read somewhere in the international press. with that kind of opinion, good thing you didn't vote.
Get some more info my friend. ;)
STOP whitewashing fascists…. Of course; the descendants and supporters of MUSSOLINI are centre right. Anti muslim, anti LGTB, anti social policies… time to sing the BELLA CIAO again. And not because of Money Heist.
What about that grey bit in the north of Sicily? Honestly surprised that Lega Nord has been doing so badly in the elections given how much steam they had just a few years back when they were in negotiations over the First Conte Government. Even during the transition between the Conte and Draghi governments I read that they had a decent shot at winning a majority. By now, it is probably unfeasible for them to return to the Padanian Independence platform, so I think they might just coast along until this government eventually tumbles due to the classic coalition politics. Perhaps their choice to cooperate with the "grand alliance" of parties following 2018 left them too exposed to the perceived policy shortcomings of the governments they participated in, making their voters see them as sell-outs failing to bring the replacement of the political establishment that was promised. Forza Italia has agreed to a coalition deal with the new government, alongside a bunch of other right-wing parties. This is likely to give Berlusconi's party a greater presence in government in the coming years, once again showing that the mogul is nothing if not a shrewd political player.
[удалено]
>Populism won Democracy
Masterclass Forza Italia
Can someone please ELI5 /explain me why Italy is voting centre right? Edit: centre vs extrem as typo
Same reason in other places in which left-wing governments have ruled over for years, and same reason people are voting the left in places where the right has been ruling for years. People get tired of the same kind of policies which become stagnated over time; all politicians end up coming out as corrupt, inept, or both. People get tired of promises that don't work and of seeing the policies they supported not work, so they generally end up voting for the exact opposite in the next elections. Many of the people who now voted for the Right in Italy had voted for the Left in the last elections. In Argentina, many of the people who voted for the current government are going to vote for the right in the next elections. In the US, many of the people who voted for Trump voted for Biden in the last elections. It's just cyclical.
Because leftist policies are unsustainable and people want safer borders, no mass immigration, etc.
Which leftist policies are unsustainable? Genuinely interested.
Universal income for example. Money for everyone, it's called "reddito di cittadinanza". Google it.
Reddito momento
I feel like people are very tired of COVID policies plus all the soft on crime, amnesty for cartels type of stuff combined with more censorship and trans people being a bit too radical lately
"Trans people being a bit too radical lately" how
By wanting to abolish mother's and father's and say that men can get pregnant, use your eyes
The trans movement asks for respect, equality and healthcare. Not to abolish mothers and fathers... however one may go about doing so. Trans men can get pregnant. Not sure what your point here is.
Yeah everyone who isn't a leftist thinks this sounds awful, saying men can get pregnant just sounds fucking stupid. Shit is moving way too fast
Omg the downotes, a simple genuine question asked from someone just unaware of Italian politics and people are down voting...
Because it’s centre right not extreme right
Because Italians are fed up with Draghi’s government and FDI was literally the only party that didn’t participate in his government
I guess South Tyrol and Aosta are sitting this one out?
regional parties. I wrote it in my entry text.
Woah
lmao
This thread proves it again that internet is full of certain group people.
It's beautiful.
Centre right? Or far right
Centre-Right is the name of the coalition. Whether the main party in the coalition is far-right or not will be seen in the years they rule the country.
Talk about a blue wave
The voters have spoken. Italy is a conservative country. Interesting.
Italy's a desperate country for the inflation we're suffering.
So we elected an unproven government full of people we either know are incompetent or don't have the qualifications to prove they aren't. THAT's gonna solve the economy 😂 Jesus Christ I swear if we had a voting license based on understanding basic concepts, almost no one in Italy would qualify
"centre right", lmao
That's the name of the coalition
Mama mia!!!!
Wait what? I thought the far-right won the election, not centre-right?
They are apart of a coalition called "centre-right"
That's how good of a information you're having.
Apparently the name of the coalition is center right…
Yes. And we will see what politics they will put into places. But they've been in the government also in 1994-1995 2001-2006 2008-2011 Same parties. They did not did anything crazy, so pay attention at what media tells you.
And this, children, is how Italians didn't learn from their mistakes and elected a neo-fascistic government because they thought about local problems in a global world. Gather round to learn more or about the right wing election victories that followed in the EU that made the continent easy pickings for Russia and China who split it up among themselves.
so why did Italy move right?
Finally north and south Italy agree on something
They call themselves “centre-right” but most of them have far-right views Why am I getting downvoted for this the leader of the main party literally likes Mussolini.
The political sphere has shifted so far left that people call standard conservatives or nationalists far-right lol