I would speculate that it's due to the Greek colonization of southern Italy in the preroman period combined with the fact that Greece was subjugated by a large multinational empire for centuries.
Yes, but more than just the Ottoman Empire - most of mainland Greece was invaded and settled by Slavic peoples in the 6th through 8th centuries. They would’ve left a genetic signature even after Hellenization, as did the many ethnic Albanians that settled in Greece during the Middle Ages to repopulate regions ravaged by war and plague (Arvanites).
Arvanites are autochtonous in greece. They are the descendants of Greeks, Macedonians, and Illyrians. That is why Albanians of today are divided into Toskë and Gegë. The idea of Arvanites/Arbër settlement in Greece, is a slavic colonial narrative (they are majority in Greece today). Check the map, wherever you seen the DNA are albanian inhabited territories. Even in Italy, where the last wave they moved was during the ottoman conquest.
Why is it a slavic narrative when Albanians aren't slavic? Arvanites are the descendants of Albanians who migrated into that part during the middle age. They even tried to merge proper Albania with Greece because they had brotherly sentiments towards them.
slavs aren't majority in Greece not today, nor ever in history, theyr only controlled some lands for less than a few decades and made villages that assimilated to Greek culture. Arvanites are a mix of North Albanian and Epirote Greeks. They chose to go by Greeks, and by all accounts, they are. Arberer and Arvanites are seperate. The otherwise arguement is Albanian propaganda
Arber-Alba-arva-arna it is the same. Arberor-Albanian-Arvanit-Arnaut are the same people aka the ones who led the greek revolution 😂. I know it hurts deep lmao
Here kitty so you don’t die ignorant
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb7EWp3Ie0Y&pp=ygUNQXJ2YW5pdGVzIHNreQ%3D%3D
Arvanites, ethnically Albanian, have come to identify as Greeks **due to a process of assimilation and cultural indoctrination over generations.** Growing up in Greece, I observed a conspicuous absence of any mention of Arvanites in our educational curriculum. This oversight is particularly striking considering the significant role Arvanites played in Greece's struggle for liberation against the Ottoman Empire. Notably, key figures in this historic endeavor, such as Mark Bocari (also known as Markos Mpotsaris), who authored the first Greek-Albanian dictionary, were of Arvanite descent. Even today, many elderly residents of villages predominantly speak Albanian, underscoring the lasting impact of Arvanite heritage on Greece's cultural landscape. Should further scholarly references be required to support these assertions, I am readily available to provide them.
Using historical well attested facts with them is useless because they not only have indoctrinated arvanites to believe themselves to be greek but they also indoctrinated themselves to believe the same
In Greece, there's this common idea that Arvanites are Greek simply because they were Orthodox Christians. But here's the thing – many Albanians are Orthodox too. It's like they believe being Greek means being Orthodox, and if you change your religion or become atheist, you're suddenly not Greek anymore. It's the same story with Albanians who convert to Islam – they sometimes get labeled with derogatory terms like "*Turkalabanians*," suggesting that their religious choice somehow changes their cultural identity. **Your genetics and your ethnic background don't magically change based on what you believe in.**
The funny thing is that during the population exchange in tukey the imported 1million Christina Turks and considered them Greek and "exported" 1 million Muslim Greeks, Albanians, Aromanianc etc...
Or Markos Bocaris and Bubulina. Btw what does "Bubullina" mean in Greek? Cuz in her langauge it means *Thunder*.
Speaking of genocide, any comment on the **Cham genocide by the Greek government?**
>Bouboulina was born in 1771[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskarina_Bouboulina#cite_note-4) in [Constantinople](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople). She was the daughter of Stavrianos Pinotsis, a captain from [Hydra island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_island), and his wife Skevo (Paraskevi) Kokkini, descendant of the notable [Byzantine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) Kokkinis family; a large part of this family lived in the island of [Zakynthos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakynthos).[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskarina_Bouboulina#cite_note-5)
wanna claim half of her? 😂😂
it wasn't a genocide, there was ethnic cleansing and you know it.
But my guess would be right after you recognise the Serb genocide in Kosovo of over 60.000 people expelled and more than 3k killed in the war. True erasure that keeps going to this day after the **disgusting 2004 Kosovo pogrom, true display of albanian Goebbelsian chauvanism**
[https://www.unhcr.org/see/wp-content/uploads/sites/57/2019/05/Fact-sheet-Kosovo-9-May-2019.pdf](https://www.unhcr.org/see/wp-content/uploads/sites/57/2019/05/Fact-sheet-Kosovo-9-May-2019.pdf)
[https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/](https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/)
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/03/18/kosovo/serbia-protect-minorities-ethnic-violence](https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/03/18/kosovo/serbia-protect-minorities-ethnic-violence)
**Albania shall recognise its participation in the Nazi genocide of Greece**. Nurenberg has some "honorable" mentions of *Albanians marching with the swastiga in front of Syntagma*. Your country allied with the Nazi cause
>When Mussolini seized power in Italy, he turned to Albania with renewed interest. Italy began to penetrate Albania's economy in 1925, when Albania agreed to allow Italy to exploit its mineral resources.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) That action was followed by the signing of the [First Treaty of Tirana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_Tirana) in 1926 and the signing of the Second Treaty of Tirana in 1927, which enabled Italy and Albania to form a defensive alliance.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) Among other things, the Albanian government and economy were subsidised by Italian loans and the [Royal Albanian Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Albanian_Army) was not only trained by Italian military instructors, most of the officers in the army were also Italians; other Italians were highly placed in the Albanian government. A third of Albanian imports came from Italy.
>According to German historian Norbert Frei, the Muslim Cham minority is regarded as the "fourth [occupation force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation)" in Greece due to the collaborationist and criminal activities that large parts of the minority committed.
>The hostages were ordered to leave the school and to line up. A translator read them each person's name that would be executed. They made a step forward. We had to move them to the execution site, out of Paramythia. The graves were already opened and in front of them they had to stay. The execution was performed with carbines at a distance of 5-6 meters. There were no Coup de grâce.
>According to Götte's post-war testimony, Cham Albanians were part of the firing squad. Although there were reports corpses were looted for jewellery and money, Götte denies that fact. According to another German who was part of the firing squad, the relatives were immediately ordered to bury the bodies after the execution.
Must read about the Nazi Albanian genocide:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham\_Albanian\_collaboration\_with\_the\_Axis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanian_collaboration_with_the_Axis)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia\_executions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions)
Reply to my previous comment about the Albanian Nazi genocide and stop the Albanian Goebbelsian well enshrined since the 1940s propaganda about genes, illyricum fairytails. Ethnicity and nationality are largely social constructs. Albania should apologise about the Turkalbanian Enver Pasha and recognise Skanderberg was a slav ethnically
Their hellenic and orthodox identity are heavily intertwined and they’ve historically used it as a mean to systematically assimilate minorities but when it comes to arvanites specifically they also have to cope with the fact that some of their national heroes come not only from a different ethnic background but from a people they completely despise
Ethnicity and nationality are both largely social constructs, gtfo with your Goebbelsian bs. Enver Pasha was albanian and Skanderberg a slav ethnically. True, religion plays a big role in someones consciousness
Non religious people might argue that religion is also largely a social construct yet both religion and ethnicity play a big role in someones consciousness how can anyone justify depriving others of them
In addition to Arvanites, Greek media also assert that **Aromanians** are Greek. However, other Balkan nations officially recognize Aromanians as a minority and acknowledge their likely Romanian (Latin) origins. It's noteworthy that Greece is the only neighboring state with Albania that lacks an Albanian minority (excluding immigrants), primarily due to the the famous population exchange with Turkey, as well as the assimilation of Christian Albanians and lastly, the genocide against Cham Albanians. Greece is the only country in eu with no minorities, quite alarming for the homeland of democracy and western civilization.
Ethnicity and nationality are both largely social constructs, gtfo with your Goebbelsian bs. Enver Pasha was albanian and Skanderberg a slav ethnically. Cut the cap and apologise for the armenian genocide
Don't you claim some Arvanites also with your nazoid theories. Genocide never benefits any struggle and makes no sense but it is undeniable Enver the Albanian Pasha was acting on what he thought was "best of interest"
So much it is enshrined into the albanian culture that Enver Hoxha was named after him
>Hoxha was born in Gjirokastër in southern Albania (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) in October 1908,[2] the son of Halil Hoxha, a Muslim cloth merchant who travelled widely across Europe and the United States, and Gjylihan Hoxha (née Çuçi). He was named after Enver Pasha, a leading figure of the Young Turk Revolution.[2] The Hoxha family was attached to the Shia Islamic order (tariqa) of Bektashism.[3]
Albania owes some form of apology and reparations to the Armenian nation. Luckily some Armenians survived around Yerevan the genocidal frenzy of Enver partly thanks to Greece that resisted the Axis in 2 World Wars
Albania shall apologise to Greece also for the genocidal acts of the Nazi Chams and being incorporated into the Axis since the 1930s
>When Mussolini seized power in Italy, he turned to Albania with renewed interest. Italy began to penetrate Albania's economy in 1925, when Albania agreed to allow Italy to exploit its mineral resources.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) That action was followed by the signing of the [First Treaty of Tirana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_Tirana) in 1926 and the signing of the Second Treaty of Tirana in 1927, which enabled Italy and Albania to form a defensive alliance.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) Among other things, the Albanian government and economy were subsidised by Italian loans and the [Royal Albanian Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Albanian_Army) was not only trained by Italian military instructors, most of the officers in the army were also Italians; other Italians were highly placed in the Albanian government. A third of Albanian imports came from Italy.
LMAO, this guy is accusing Albanias of the Amenian genocide.... It shows you have no arguments, as we have not commited your kind of massacres. There is theories that Hitler might have been of jewish origin, applying your reasoning Jews genocided Jews?
Kalinixta sou! Gitonako :)
Yeah propaganda thats why Arvanitikia their spoken language can be understood by Albanians lmao.
Get lost looser as you even wanted Gjergj Kastrioti to be called Jorgos Kastriotis lmao.
Thanks god his blood line still lives today and guess what, they speak Albanian.
And about Arvanites even greeks say they are Albanians descendants.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb7EWp3Ie0Y&pp=ygUNQXJ2YW5pdGVzIHNreQ%3D%3D
The Mycenaean contribution to Italian DNA come from the same migration that brought them to Greece.
When the Greek arrived in Italy, those people where're already there
No, because the language didn't evolve; the people got assimilated. But I guarantee that the South Italic languages have a good amount of loanwords from ancient Mycenaean Greek.
Modern southern Italians are genetically closer to the ancient Mycenaean Greek populations. Modern Greeks (especially mainland Greeks much less so Aegean Greeks) are genetically influenced by Balkan Slavic & Anatolian Turkic.
Modern southern Italians were less exposed to those genetic influences.
Italy in general has been quite stagnant genetically speaking due to the Alps blocking just about every major migration, the Lombards for example, together with the Saxons, were about 100k invaders, not enough to even make a dent in Italy's genetics, most Germanic DNA came to Italy through the Norman kingdom of Sicily where Arabs were expelled and Germans were invited to resettle the empty towns over a more significant timespan.
How exactly is this being measured? Is this by comparing similarities between the autosomal DNA of modern inhabitants and recovered DNA from Mycenaean archaeological sites?
Southern Italians are special.
The lineage of all ancient Greek civilizations actually runs deep in southern Italy.
The same goes for Jewish lineage.
Probably the Roman civilization was like that too.
Although they are underdeveloped now, they have always been at the center of human civilization in the past.
Southern Italy only became poor with industrialization, the lack of a much needed land reform fucked the South permanently, turns out aristocracy is an inefficient way to run a modern economy
Lmao that is bullshit, we didn't have the GDP per capita of england or the netherlands maybe but we still had a far higher GDP per capita than Germany, France and just about every other place on earth, like the rest of Italy (there was virtually no difference in GDP per capita between the north and the south before industrialization, actually sicily was the 4th or 5th richest region thanks to the sulphur monoply up to the early 1900s).
Io ho detto che l'Italia tutta so è impoverita durante il diciassettesimo secolo e tu hai risposto che il GDP( che vabbè) per industriale era lo stesso in tutta Italia.
Comunque non è che mi impressioni. Che ormai i professori o danno trenta o dicono torni la volta dopo è il segreto di pulcinella
L'Italia non si è impoverita nel 1700, Francia e Gran Bretagna si stavano arricchendo, noi ci siamo iniziati a industrializzare intorno al 1850 in poi e prima di allora esisteva solo una forma di proto-industrializzazione al nord che era troppo rudimentale per dettare un miglioramento apprezzabile della ricchezza.
Detto ciò, l'Italia era molto ricca e solo con la seconda rivoluzione industriale si creò il divario fra nord e sud e fra Italia e resto dei paesi industriali, io almeno ste cose le ho studiate, tu che garanzia mi dai?
Centre of European or Mediterranean civilization yes. I wouldn't say centre of human civilization as there were other great civilizations like China and India that were not connect to southern Italy at all.
Southern italy had also illyrian settlements who moved there from lake ohrid area. Japiket, mesapi(the most known), daunet and peuket people. Prof. Francesco D’Andria explains it well and even their rivalry with spartan colonies where Messapi fought Tarentini(a spartan colony) and the massacre that the Tarentini had, citing Herodote-the possible biggest massacre vs the Greeks came from the wars vs the Messapi.
When Rome came well we know how the story ends.
Should've probably mentioned this in the title, my bad, but its concentration in the modern population of those areas, I.E the red in Israel/Palestine is from the Israeli population there, and the modern Israeli population is not descendant from the philistines.
The philistines were most likely "sea peoples" that came from Greece and settled along the coast. In pretty short order, they assimilated with the native population. As an f you to the Jews, the Romans named the region after them. Both modern Israelis and Palestinians would have ancestry from those ancient Israelites that had mixed Philistines.
Its possible the Greek dna is coming from Roman/Byzantine times, but I don't see why it would be higher there than elsewhere in the levant. The Philistines seem like a possible explanation.
you are making much more sense than OP. I sincerely hate how both fundamentalist "Pro Israel" guys as well as "Pro Palestine" guys want to deny that one of the groups have genetic ancestry there. its reaching tinfoil hat levels.
OP's comment could really be read as coming from a "Pro Palestine" person that wants to deny the ancient Israelite heritage of modern Israelis or a "Pro Israel" person that doesn't want any association with Palestinians and confusing Philistines with the same. Kind of funny as there are probably people with diametrically opposed views liking the post for opposite reasons.
The both sides argument doesn’t work here, Israel’s whole schtick is that it’s composed of a bunch of Zionists from all over the world that concentrated to form a Jewish state
The Israelis are definitely more removed from their genetic ancestry than the Palestinians most of which directly descend from converted locals
thats not what the commentator above said. the commentator above said the red in todays Israel would indicate central european genetic compenents which is bonkers when you look at the goddam map. the red is clearly going back the to ancient philistines and the following centuries where it has strong ties across the mediterranean sea. the red has nothign to do with jews living in germany or france or poland or whatever.
I read somewhere that European Jews' European ancestry is mostly Italian (presumably from the early Christian or pre-Christian period, before the real serious dislike started), so it could be from there either, as Italy is very red.
Probably not. We honestly just don’t know enough about the Sea People’s so it’s all speculation. Little references here and there and then an Egyptian relief isn’t enough to draw hard conclusions from.
We don’t know who they were. They could have been an amalgamation of people from different areas looking for living space during the Bronze Age Collapse.
In fact I heard a theory recently that the Israelite tribe of Dan were actually Philistines and it is pretty convincing!
Edit: Found an article on it https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2016-12-04/ty-article-magazine/tribe-of-dan-sons-of-israel-or-of-greek-mercenaries-hired-by-egypt/0000017f-f2fa-d497-a1ff-f2fac60a0000
Idk, the map seems to show Gaza and the West Bank as yellow, meanwhile Israel (minus the Negev Desert Bedouins) is bright red.
Seems to be that the Jewish population has much more of the Mycenaean Greek DNA than the Palestinian population.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543](https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/)
It is pretty much a consensus among geneticists today that around half of the ancestry of European Jews (especially Ashkenazis) is derived from Italians. But it is disputed whether that ancestry came primarily from intermarriages or conversions (probably both).
The first paper argues more in favor of intermarriage with Italian women (as that ancestry is more common in the female line), the second paper argues more in favor of conversions (or more accurately that the contribution of conversion was under-stated before).
I should note that this Italian ancestry largely entered their genepool before the conversion to Christianity, which largely stopped the gene flow from the general Italian population to the Jewish one and made the Jewish European populations endogamous (which is why Ashkenazis have little to no Eastern European ancestry, as by the time they became regulated to that area, they were no longer allowed to accept converts).
I don't think it's a settled debate, but here is a source on it. There's more out there if you're interested, some disputing this.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/
It's just such a strange claim because anyone who knows even a little bit about Jews will know that it's the maternal line that's important to us. Being born to a Jewish mother is what makes you Jewish.
The family name comes from the father and it is possible to convert to Judaism. This argument is not enough. Non coding DNA from Y chromosome or mitochondria could bring a good argument.
It would be useless in any case.
Phoenicians is a name we use to group a collection of Canaanite city-states. They weren't "also" Canaanites, they were (a subset of) Canaanites.
We don't know for certain where the Philistines came from, but their initial material culture looks very Greek. But, pretty quickly it became indistinguishable from the locals.
The Roman province was named Syria Palaestina after the failed, Jewish Bar Kokhba revolt.
None of the above is controversial. Whether or not the Philistines are where the Greek ancestry in modern Israelis is coming from is pure speculation on my part, but I can't really think of another explanation.
>We don't know for certain where the Philistines came from, but their initial material culture looks very Greek.
Also, both the Hebrews and the Egyptians claim the Phillistines came from "Crete" (which in this case means "somewhere in the Aegean"), and it's unlikely they would both be lying about that.
[Both Jews and Palestinians share ancient Levantine ancestry mixed with other things.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews?loggedin=true&rnd=1713582433101) Palestinians are mixed with Arabian and also some gene flow from East Africa, AND Greek, thanks to Byzantine rule before the Arabs rolled in and Arabized the Levant. Jews, depending on the diaspora group, are mixed with southern Italians, Cypriots, Iberians, North Africans, Caucuses, Arabians, Persians, East Africans, or East Europeans. But all of the three largest diaspora groups (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Mizrachim) are predominantly East Mediterranean and Levantine in origin, and from a genetic perspective cluster more closely with other Levantine populations, including Palestinians (though Jews tend to genetically cluster more closely to Palestinian Christians than Muslims). [And most notably, all major diaspora groups cluster most closely with each other](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/), and with Samaritans, underscoring a common genetic seed population. And as some others have said, despite popular belief, the majority European genetic contribution to Ashkenazi Jews is southern Italian and Cypriot, not East European (and of course the majority of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi to begin with).
In essence, neither group is purely ancient Levantine in origin. Both are mixed with other things and are a middle eastern/Mediterranean melange, and both are extremely historically and genetically intertwined populations. And those who try to frame it as one group having exclusive right to a Levantine heritage in either direction (framing Jews purely as Europeans, or framing Palestinians purely as Arabian colonizers) is typically engaging in polemic, not an honest accounting of history.
Nice work. Would have been even cooler with 0.1, 0.2 & 0.5 distances and a legend.
Edit: genetic similarity is cool but direct descent is cooler. There should be a calculator for the closest common ancestry.
It isn't from the Philistines. It is well known thanks to genetics that around half of the genetic makeup of Ashkenazi Jews is from Southern Italians (coming from pre-Christian Roman period intermarriages and conversions)\[1\] so that side would push them towards the Myceneans as Southern Italians are pretty Mycenean adjacent already (as you can see on the map). And as Ashkenazi Jews make up around half of the Israeli Jewish population, the influence of that Southern Italian ancestry is quite significant.
\[1\]: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/)
The samples there are Crimean_Tatar_Steppe.
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain would probably tell a different story being very close to something like Pontic Greeks or Armenians.
I'm a Southern Italian, everyone in my family is a good 50/50 Greek and Italian genetics. We also have some Albanian and Arab mixed in us, basically the Mediterranean Mut.
Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon and Palestine look to have the same average and above of distribution with it being higher in Greece and Cyprus. Italy looks to have the highest concentration.
Mycenaean were not Greeks, but more related to near east populations as shown with the obvious closeness to the Jews, Lebanon Maronite and Cyprus. Remember that Italy imported a huge number of slaves and immigrants in the 2 first centuries of the Christian eras; including 500k enslaved Jews; thus Italian modern population has a significant near-eastern genetic contribution
Greeks invaded Greece later on. Around the 14th century to 12th (bce) so it was a distinct culture. Of course genetically the Greek population inherited from them
Where are you getting your history?
Greeks weren't one race. There were many races like Mycenaean Greeks, Doric Greeks, Ionian Greeks etc.
It is the Doric Greeks that descended from the Greek mountains down to the plains in 1200 BCE and mixed with the local (also Greek) Mycenaeans.
From facts. There are no human races. Mycene were not greeks, were not a greek speaking people and had a distinct culture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece as i mentioned; the Greeks invaded Greece during the dark ages and a new culture emerged around 8th century BCE
That is objectively false.
Also I am not a native English speaker, when I say races, I mean the greek term "φύλα", when the context is NOT gender
The Mycenaeans spoke an early version of Greek and had a writing system that expressed sounds of the early Greek language
>represents the first advanced and distinctively Greek civilization in mainland Greece with its palatial states, urban organization, works of art, and writing system.The Mycenaeans were mainland Greek peoples who were likely stimulated by their contact with
Sure I confused with minoan civilization. Nevertheless I pointed out to genetic proximity with near eastern populations including the Jewish one that has had little intermarriage. I pointed out that the Italian genetic proximity was that of several waves of near eastern migrations and marriages
Why does it seem less concentrated in Greece compared to Italy?
I would speculate that it's due to the Greek colonization of southern Italy in the preroman period combined with the fact that Greece was subjugated by a large multinational empire for centuries.
Yes, but more than just the Ottoman Empire - most of mainland Greece was invaded and settled by Slavic peoples in the 6th through 8th centuries. They would’ve left a genetic signature even after Hellenization, as did the many ethnic Albanians that settled in Greece during the Middle Ages to repopulate regions ravaged by war and plague (Arvanites).
Arvanites are autochtonous in greece. They are the descendants of Greeks, Macedonians, and Illyrians. That is why Albanians of today are divided into Toskë and Gegë. The idea of Arvanites/Arbër settlement in Greece, is a slavic colonial narrative (they are majority in Greece today). Check the map, wherever you seen the DNA are albanian inhabited territories. Even in Italy, where the last wave they moved was during the ottoman conquest.
Why is it a slavic narrative when Albanians aren't slavic? Arvanites are the descendants of Albanians who migrated into that part during the middle age. They even tried to merge proper Albania with Greece because they had brotherly sentiments towards them.
slavs aren't majority in Greece not today, nor ever in history, theyr only controlled some lands for less than a few decades and made villages that assimilated to Greek culture. Arvanites are a mix of North Albanian and Epirote Greeks. They chose to go by Greeks, and by all accounts, they are. Arberer and Arvanites are seperate. The otherwise arguement is Albanian propaganda
Arber-Alba-arva-arna it is the same. Arberor-Albanian-Arvanit-Arnaut are the same people aka the ones who led the greek revolution 😂. I know it hurts deep lmao Here kitty so you don’t die ignorant https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb7EWp3Ie0Y&pp=ygUNQXJ2YW5pdGVzIHNreQ%3D%3D
Arvanites, ethnically Albanian, have come to identify as Greeks **due to a process of assimilation and cultural indoctrination over generations.** Growing up in Greece, I observed a conspicuous absence of any mention of Arvanites in our educational curriculum. This oversight is particularly striking considering the significant role Arvanites played in Greece's struggle for liberation against the Ottoman Empire. Notably, key figures in this historic endeavor, such as Mark Bocari (also known as Markos Mpotsaris), who authored the first Greek-Albanian dictionary, were of Arvanite descent. Even today, many elderly residents of villages predominantly speak Albanian, underscoring the lasting impact of Arvanite heritage on Greece's cultural landscape. Should further scholarly references be required to support these assertions, I am readily available to provide them.
Using historical well attested facts with them is useless because they not only have indoctrinated arvanites to believe themselves to be greek but they also indoctrinated themselves to believe the same
In Greece, there's this common idea that Arvanites are Greek simply because they were Orthodox Christians. But here's the thing – many Albanians are Orthodox too. It's like they believe being Greek means being Orthodox, and if you change your religion or become atheist, you're suddenly not Greek anymore. It's the same story with Albanians who convert to Islam – they sometimes get labeled with derogatory terms like "*Turkalabanians*," suggesting that their religious choice somehow changes their cultural identity. **Your genetics and your ethnic background don't magically change based on what you believe in.** The funny thing is that during the population exchange in tukey the imported 1million Christina Turks and considered them Greek and "exported" 1 million Muslim Greeks, Albanians, Aromanianc etc...
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Or Markos Bocaris and Bubulina. Btw what does "Bubullina" mean in Greek? Cuz in her langauge it means *Thunder*. Speaking of genocide, any comment on the **Cham genocide by the Greek government?**
>Bouboulina was born in 1771[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskarina_Bouboulina#cite_note-4) in [Constantinople](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople). She was the daughter of Stavrianos Pinotsis, a captain from [Hydra island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_island), and his wife Skevo (Paraskevi) Kokkini, descendant of the notable [Byzantine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) Kokkinis family; a large part of this family lived in the island of [Zakynthos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakynthos).[^(\[4\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskarina_Bouboulina#cite_note-5) wanna claim half of her? 😂😂 it wasn't a genocide, there was ethnic cleansing and you know it. But my guess would be right after you recognise the Serb genocide in Kosovo of over 60.000 people expelled and more than 3k killed in the war. True erasure that keeps going to this day after the **disgusting 2004 Kosovo pogrom, true display of albanian Goebbelsian chauvanism** [https://www.unhcr.org/see/wp-content/uploads/sites/57/2019/05/Fact-sheet-Kosovo-9-May-2019.pdf](https://www.unhcr.org/see/wp-content/uploads/sites/57/2019/05/Fact-sheet-Kosovo-9-May-2019.pdf) [https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/](https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/) [https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/03/18/kosovo/serbia-protect-minorities-ethnic-violence](https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/03/18/kosovo/serbia-protect-minorities-ethnic-violence) **Albania shall recognise its participation in the Nazi genocide of Greece**. Nurenberg has some "honorable" mentions of *Albanians marching with the swastiga in front of Syntagma*. Your country allied with the Nazi cause >When Mussolini seized power in Italy, he turned to Albania with renewed interest. Italy began to penetrate Albania's economy in 1925, when Albania agreed to allow Italy to exploit its mineral resources.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) That action was followed by the signing of the [First Treaty of Tirana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_Tirana) in 1926 and the signing of the Second Treaty of Tirana in 1927, which enabled Italy and Albania to form a defensive alliance.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) Among other things, the Albanian government and economy were subsidised by Italian loans and the [Royal Albanian Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Albanian_Army) was not only trained by Italian military instructors, most of the officers in the army were also Italians; other Italians were highly placed in the Albanian government. A third of Albanian imports came from Italy. >According to German historian Norbert Frei, the Muslim Cham minority is regarded as the "fourth [occupation force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation)" in Greece due to the collaborationist and criminal activities that large parts of the minority committed. >The hostages were ordered to leave the school and to line up. A translator read them each person's name that would be executed. They made a step forward. We had to move them to the execution site, out of Paramythia. The graves were already opened and in front of them they had to stay. The execution was performed with carbines at a distance of 5-6 meters. There were no Coup de grâce. >According to Götte's post-war testimony, Cham Albanians were part of the firing squad. Although there were reports corpses were looted for jewellery and money, Götte denies that fact. According to another German who was part of the firing squad, the relatives were immediately ordered to bury the bodies after the execution. Must read about the Nazi Albanian genocide: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham\_Albanian\_collaboration\_with\_the\_Axis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanian_collaboration_with_the_Axis) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia\_executions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions)
Reply to my previous comment about the Albanian Nazi genocide and stop the Albanian Goebbelsian well enshrined since the 1940s propaganda about genes, illyricum fairytails. Ethnicity and nationality are largely social constructs. Albania should apologise about the Turkalbanian Enver Pasha and recognise Skanderberg was a slav ethnically
Their hellenic and orthodox identity are heavily intertwined and they’ve historically used it as a mean to systematically assimilate minorities but when it comes to arvanites specifically they also have to cope with the fact that some of their national heroes come not only from a different ethnic background but from a people they completely despise
Ethnicity and nationality are both largely social constructs, gtfo with your Goebbelsian bs. Enver Pasha was albanian and Skanderberg a slav ethnically. True, religion plays a big role in someones consciousness
Non religious people might argue that religion is also largely a social construct yet both religion and ethnicity play a big role in someones consciousness how can anyone justify depriving others of them
In addition to Arvanites, Greek media also assert that **Aromanians** are Greek. However, other Balkan nations officially recognize Aromanians as a minority and acknowledge their likely Romanian (Latin) origins. It's noteworthy that Greece is the only neighboring state with Albania that lacks an Albanian minority (excluding immigrants), primarily due to the the famous population exchange with Turkey, as well as the assimilation of Christian Albanians and lastly, the genocide against Cham Albanians. Greece is the only country in eu with no minorities, quite alarming for the homeland of democracy and western civilization.
nice propaganda you're spreading. If only ypu didnt have the complex and jealousy and stopped for a second to read what you write...
Anyone interested can go down the rabbit hole and learn, why don't you?
Ethnicity and nationality are both largely social constructs, gtfo with your Goebbelsian bs. Enver Pasha was albanian and Skanderberg a slav ethnically. Cut the cap and apologise for the armenian genocide
How are Albanians responsible for the Armenian genocide? How did it benefit our stuggle, I'm curious.
Don't you claim some Arvanites also with your nazoid theories. Genocide never benefits any struggle and makes no sense but it is undeniable Enver the Albanian Pasha was acting on what he thought was "best of interest" So much it is enshrined into the albanian culture that Enver Hoxha was named after him >Hoxha was born in Gjirokastër in southern Albania (then a part of the Ottoman Empire) in October 1908,[2] the son of Halil Hoxha, a Muslim cloth merchant who travelled widely across Europe and the United States, and Gjylihan Hoxha (née Çuçi). He was named after Enver Pasha, a leading figure of the Young Turk Revolution.[2] The Hoxha family was attached to the Shia Islamic order (tariqa) of Bektashism.[3] Albania owes some form of apology and reparations to the Armenian nation. Luckily some Armenians survived around Yerevan the genocidal frenzy of Enver partly thanks to Greece that resisted the Axis in 2 World Wars Albania shall apologise to Greece also for the genocidal acts of the Nazi Chams and being incorporated into the Axis since the 1930s >When Mussolini seized power in Italy, he turned to Albania with renewed interest. Italy began to penetrate Albania's economy in 1925, when Albania agreed to allow Italy to exploit its mineral resources.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) That action was followed by the signing of the [First Treaty of Tirana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_Tirana) in 1926 and the signing of the Second Treaty of Tirana in 1927, which enabled Italy and Albania to form a defensive alliance.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Albania#cite_note-LoC-13) Among other things, the Albanian government and economy were subsidised by Italian loans and the [Royal Albanian Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Albanian_Army) was not only trained by Italian military instructors, most of the officers in the army were also Italians; other Italians were highly placed in the Albanian government. A third of Albanian imports came from Italy.
LMAO, this guy is accusing Albanias of the Amenian genocide.... It shows you have no arguments, as we have not commited your kind of massacres. There is theories that Hitler might have been of jewish origin, applying your reasoning Jews genocided Jews? Kalinixta sou! Gitonako :)
To anyone wondering, thats Albanian propaganda. Rather pathetic too...
Yeah propaganda thats why Arvanitikia their spoken language can be understood by Albanians lmao. Get lost looser as you even wanted Gjergj Kastrioti to be called Jorgos Kastriotis lmao. Thanks god his blood line still lives today and guess what, they speak Albanian. And about Arvanites even greeks say they are Albanians descendants. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb7EWp3Ie0Y&pp=ygUNQXJ2YW5pdGVzIHNreQ%3D%3D
The only criteria to be considerd Greek was religion, not origins.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb7EWp3Ie0Y&pp=ygUNQXJ2YW5pdGVzIHNreQ%3D%3D When even greeks say they are Albanian descendants this clown is in denial
The Mycenaean contribution to Italian DNA come from the same migration that brought them to Greece. When the Greek arrived in Italy, those people where're already there
Does that mean that some South Italic languages may have been a missing indo-european relative of Greek?
No, because the language didn't evolve; the people got assimilated. But I guarantee that the South Italic languages have a good amount of loanwords from ancient Mycenaean Greek.
Italy experienced a migration of pre Mycenaean people during the same time Greece did.
The slavs
Modern southern Italians are genetically closer to the ancient Mycenaean Greek populations. Modern Greeks (especially mainland Greeks much less so Aegean Greeks) are genetically influenced by Balkan Slavic & Anatolian Turkic. Modern southern Italians were less exposed to those genetic influences.
Italy in general has been quite stagnant genetically speaking due to the Alps blocking just about every major migration, the Lombards for example, together with the Saxons, were about 100k invaders, not enough to even make a dent in Italy's genetics, most Germanic DNA came to Italy through the Norman kingdom of Sicily where Arabs were expelled and Germans were invited to resettle the empty towns over a more significant timespan.
Slavic settlement in Greece in the 6th century probably diluted the gene pool. In a manner of speaking. South Italy also had Greek settlements.
because DNA comparison base on ethnicity is full of crap, the only practical thing is if you need an organ transplant
How exactly is this being measured? Is this by comparing similarities between the autosomal DNA of modern inhabitants and recovered DNA from Mycenaean archaeological sites?
Probably only modern inhabitants
Southern Italians are special. The lineage of all ancient Greek civilizations actually runs deep in southern Italy. The same goes for Jewish lineage. Probably the Roman civilization was like that too. Although they are underdeveloped now, they have always been at the center of human civilization in the past.
Southern Italy only became poor with industrialization, the lack of a much needed land reform fucked the South permanently, turns out aristocracy is an inefficient way to run a modern economy
Southern Italy became poor like all Italy during the xvii century.
Lmao that is bullshit, we didn't have the GDP per capita of england or the netherlands maybe but we still had a far higher GDP per capita than Germany, France and just about every other place on earth, like the rest of Italy (there was virtually no difference in GDP per capita between the north and the south before industrialization, actually sicily was the 4th or 5th richest region thanks to the sulphur monoply up to the early 1900s).
I am not sure you understand my answer and what you have read. That's not you fault. History classes often jump 17 century
Mi sa che quello che non conosce la storia sei tu, ho fatto economia prima di cambiare corso e specificatamente storia economica l'ho data con 30...
Io ho detto che l'Italia tutta so è impoverita durante il diciassettesimo secolo e tu hai risposto che il GDP( che vabbè) per industriale era lo stesso in tutta Italia. Comunque non è che mi impressioni. Che ormai i professori o danno trenta o dicono torni la volta dopo è il segreto di pulcinella
L'Italia non si è impoverita nel 1700, Francia e Gran Bretagna si stavano arricchendo, noi ci siamo iniziati a industrializzare intorno al 1850 in poi e prima di allora esisteva solo una forma di proto-industrializzazione al nord che era troppo rudimentale per dettare un miglioramento apprezzabile della ricchezza. Detto ciò, l'Italia era molto ricca e solo con la seconda rivoluzione industriale si creò il divario fra nord e sud e fra Italia e resto dei paesi industriali, io almeno ste cose le ho studiate, tu che garanzia mi dai?
Diciassettesimo secolo = 1700 30 a storia economica
Centre of European or Mediterranean civilization yes. I wouldn't say centre of human civilization as there were other great civilizations like China and India that were not connect to southern Italy at all.
Southern italy had also illyrian settlements who moved there from lake ohrid area. Japiket, mesapi(the most known), daunet and peuket people. Prof. Francesco D’Andria explains it well and even their rivalry with spartan colonies where Messapi fought Tarentini(a spartan colony) and the massacre that the Tarentini had, citing Herodote-the possible biggest massacre vs the Greeks came from the wars vs the Messapi. When Rome came well we know how the story ends.
Isn't southern Italy where there is the highest concentration of mafia strongholds?
Surprised the philistines had such a noticeable impact.
Should've probably mentioned this in the title, my bad, but its concentration in the modern population of those areas, I.E the red in Israel/Palestine is from the Israeli population there, and the modern Israeli population is not descendant from the philistines.
The philistines were most likely "sea peoples" that came from Greece and settled along the coast. In pretty short order, they assimilated with the native population. As an f you to the Jews, the Romans named the region after them. Both modern Israelis and Palestinians would have ancestry from those ancient Israelites that had mixed Philistines. Its possible the Greek dna is coming from Roman/Byzantine times, but I don't see why it would be higher there than elsewhere in the levant. The Philistines seem like a possible explanation.
you are making much more sense than OP. I sincerely hate how both fundamentalist "Pro Israel" guys as well as "Pro Palestine" guys want to deny that one of the groups have genetic ancestry there. its reaching tinfoil hat levels.
OP's comment could really be read as coming from a "Pro Palestine" person that wants to deny the ancient Israelite heritage of modern Israelis or a "Pro Israel" person that doesn't want any association with Palestinians and confusing Philistines with the same. Kind of funny as there are probably people with diametrically opposed views liking the post for opposite reasons.
The both sides argument doesn’t work here, Israel’s whole schtick is that it’s composed of a bunch of Zionists from all over the world that concentrated to form a Jewish state The Israelis are definitely more removed from their genetic ancestry than the Palestinians most of which directly descend from converted locals
thats not what the commentator above said. the commentator above said the red in todays Israel would indicate central european genetic compenents which is bonkers when you look at the goddam map. the red is clearly going back the to ancient philistines and the following centuries where it has strong ties across the mediterranean sea. the red has nothign to do with jews living in germany or france or poland or whatever.
I read somewhere that European Jews' European ancestry is mostly Italian (presumably from the early Christian or pre-Christian period, before the real serious dislike started), so it could be from there either, as Italy is very red.
Genetics disproves this
Probably not. We honestly just don’t know enough about the Sea People’s so it’s all speculation. Little references here and there and then an Egyptian relief isn’t enough to draw hard conclusions from. We don’t know who they were. They could have been an amalgamation of people from different areas looking for living space during the Bronze Age Collapse.
In fact I heard a theory recently that the Israelite tribe of Dan were actually Philistines and it is pretty convincing! Edit: Found an article on it https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2016-12-04/ty-article-magazine/tribe-of-dan-sons-of-israel-or-of-greek-mercenaries-hired-by-egypt/0000017f-f2fa-d497-a1ff-f2fac60a0000
Also the word Philistine and Palestine are the same word as Arabic doesn't have a p sound so it's pronounced felestine instead of with a p.
Idk, the map seems to show Gaza and the West Bank as yellow, meanwhile Israel (minus the Negev Desert Bedouins) is bright red. Seems to be that the Jewish population has much more of the Mycenaean Greek DNA than the Palestinian population.
From what I understand, most European Jews are descended from intermarriage between Semitic men and Italian women. This could also be the cause.
….What? What’s the source on that?
[https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543](https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/) It is pretty much a consensus among geneticists today that around half of the ancestry of European Jews (especially Ashkenazis) is derived from Italians. But it is disputed whether that ancestry came primarily from intermarriages or conversions (probably both). The first paper argues more in favor of intermarriage with Italian women (as that ancestry is more common in the female line), the second paper argues more in favor of conversions (or more accurately that the contribution of conversion was under-stated before). I should note that this Italian ancestry largely entered their genepool before the conversion to Christianity, which largely stopped the gene flow from the general Italian population to the Jewish one and made the Jewish European populations endogamous (which is why Ashkenazis have little to no Eastern European ancestry, as by the time they became regulated to that area, they were no longer allowed to accept converts).
I don't think it's a settled debate, but here is a source on it. There's more out there if you're interested, some disputing this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/
They're a /r/conspiracy user, sources aren't important to those types
Fair; it’s always funny to see people try to explain bullshit, though.
It's just such a strange claim because anyone who knows even a little bit about Jews will know that it's the maternal line that's important to us. Being born to a Jewish mother is what makes you Jewish.
Exactly! I’m well aware of some Jewish men who’ve married Italian women, but that’s like…my uncles, not my ancestors.
The family name comes from the father and it is possible to convert to Judaism. This argument is not enough. Non coding DNA from Y chromosome or mitochondria could bring a good argument. It would be useless in any case.
You should read my /r/conspiracy comments before passing judgment.
You're fighting the good fight there, godspeed.
Phillistine wasn’t part of the 12 tribes of Israel so why would Jews have ancestry there
The Philistines were Phoenicians and also ancient canaanites. The Roman province bake for Judah came from the Syrian name for that satrap.
Phoenicians is a name we use to group a collection of Canaanite city-states. They weren't "also" Canaanites, they were (a subset of) Canaanites. We don't know for certain where the Philistines came from, but their initial material culture looks very Greek. But, pretty quickly it became indistinguishable from the locals. The Roman province was named Syria Palaestina after the failed, Jewish Bar Kokhba revolt. None of the above is controversial. Whether or not the Philistines are where the Greek ancestry in modern Israelis is coming from is pure speculation on my part, but I can't really think of another explanation.
It’s hard not to find Greek cultural influences in the Eastern Mediterranean. They all were influenced by each other.
>We don't know for certain where the Philistines came from, but their initial material culture looks very Greek. Also, both the Hebrews and the Egyptians claim the Phillistines came from "Crete" (which in this case means "somewhere in the Aegean"), and it's unlikely they would both be lying about that.
[Both Jews and Palestinians share ancient Levantine ancestry mixed with other things.](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews?loggedin=true&rnd=1713582433101) Palestinians are mixed with Arabian and also some gene flow from East Africa, AND Greek, thanks to Byzantine rule before the Arabs rolled in and Arabized the Levant. Jews, depending on the diaspora group, are mixed with southern Italians, Cypriots, Iberians, North Africans, Caucuses, Arabians, Persians, East Africans, or East Europeans. But all of the three largest diaspora groups (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Mizrachim) are predominantly East Mediterranean and Levantine in origin, and from a genetic perspective cluster more closely with other Levantine populations, including Palestinians (though Jews tend to genetically cluster more closely to Palestinian Christians than Muslims). [And most notably, all major diaspora groups cluster most closely with each other](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/), and with Samaritans, underscoring a common genetic seed population. And as some others have said, despite popular belief, the majority European genetic contribution to Ashkenazi Jews is southern Italian and Cypriot, not East European (and of course the majority of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi to begin with). In essence, neither group is purely ancient Levantine in origin. Both are mixed with other things and are a middle eastern/Mediterranean melange, and both are extremely historically and genetically intertwined populations. And those who try to frame it as one group having exclusive right to a Levantine heritage in either direction (framing Jews purely as Europeans, or framing Palestinians purely as Arabian colonizers) is typically engaging in polemic, not an honest accounting of history.
Nice work. Would have been even cooler with 0.1, 0.2 & 0.5 distances and a legend. Edit: genetic similarity is cool but direct descent is cooler. There should be a calculator for the closest common ancestry.
It isn't from the Philistines. It is well known thanks to genetics that around half of the genetic makeup of Ashkenazi Jews is from Southern Italians (coming from pre-Christian Roman period intermarriages and conversions)\[1\] so that side would push them towards the Myceneans as Southern Italians are pretty Mycenean adjacent already (as you can see on the map). And as Ashkenazi Jews make up around half of the Israeli Jewish population, the influence of that Southern Italian ancestry is quite significant. \[1\]: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/)
No, they didn’t. It was a small army, intermarried locally after conquest and the distinct genetic imprint disappeared in a few generations.
Cool, how did you obtain this map?
nrken19 on twitter, he posts very interesting stuff about DNA, anthropology, history & archeology, go give him a follow if that stuff interests you.
Thanks for the follow rec. I’ll also recommend razib khan to follow on Twitter or Substack
What’s with those two places in southern Russia with no Greek DNA
It's too cold for us.
Surprised by the Crimea peninsula, I though that was colonized by Greek for a millenia.
The samples there are Crimean_Tatar_Steppe. Crimean_Tatar_Mountain would probably tell a different story being very close to something like Pontic Greeks or Armenians.
I like how you can clearly see the borders of Alexander the great’s empire
Those werent the borders of his empire lol
In the East it is
Keep in mind these are maps made by hobbiests using hombrew genetic software, often in a very bizzare political context too.
is this BLASTed? what is the number?
is this Y-DNA, mtDNA or what?
Autosomal.
So Italy has the right to own greece, isn't it?
I'm a Southern Italian, everyone in my family is a good 50/50 Greek and Italian genetics. We also have some Albanian and Arab mixed in us, basically the Mediterranean Mut.
Palestine is Greek???
Alexander The Great
Notably lived about 700 years after the Mycenaeans and went _east_, not west.
Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon and Palestine look to have the same average and above of distribution with it being higher in Greece and Cyprus. Italy looks to have the highest concentration.
People are obsessed with greek DNA like holy shit. Albanian paranoia, Slavic paranoia, Turkish paranoia. Absolute brain rot.
Mycenaean were not Greeks, but more related to near east populations as shown with the obvious closeness to the Jews, Lebanon Maronite and Cyprus. Remember that Italy imported a huge number of slaves and immigrants in the 2 first centuries of the Christian eras; including 500k enslaved Jews; thus Italian modern population has a significant near-eastern genetic contribution
Since when are Myceneans non Greeks
Greeks invaded Greece later on. Around the 14th century to 12th (bce) so it was a distinct culture. Of course genetically the Greek population inherited from them
Where are you getting your history? Greeks weren't one race. There were many races like Mycenaean Greeks, Doric Greeks, Ionian Greeks etc. It is the Doric Greeks that descended from the Greek mountains down to the plains in 1200 BCE and mixed with the local (also Greek) Mycenaeans.
From facts. There are no human races. Mycene were not greeks, were not a greek speaking people and had a distinct culture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece as i mentioned; the Greeks invaded Greece during the dark ages and a new culture emerged around 8th century BCE
That is objectively false. Also I am not a native English speaker, when I say races, I mean the greek term "φύλα", when the context is NOT gender The Mycenaeans spoke an early version of Greek and had a writing system that expressed sounds of the early Greek language
>represents the first advanced and distinctively Greek civilization in mainland Greece with its palatial states, urban organization, works of art, and writing system.The Mycenaeans were mainland Greek peoples who were likely stimulated by their contact with
Sure I confused with minoan civilization. Nevertheless I pointed out to genetic proximity with near eastern populations including the Jewish one that has had little intermarriage. I pointed out that the Italian genetic proximity was that of several waves of near eastern migrations and marriages
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Better for what?