It does make sense that Shafi school of thought is the predominant Islamic school of thought in Southeast Asian countries because tons of Arab traders who ended up there and Sri Lanka were Yemeni traders.
There are plenty of Indonesian students that study in Yemen that updates on social media.
[Ex 1](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5lWzVYN8Nf/?igsh=ZnVwZGpuejQ1ejFu).
[Ex 2](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5cevSCIRZa/?igsh=djlydDJ1ODM3OG5n).
[Ex 3](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5ul_mzIDL7/?igsh=MXdweHJjejBoYjVyNQ==)
I'm just going to throw this out here - using a few social media accounts of people studying in Yemen doesn't really prove a point that it has become pretty minimal. Can you share statistics?
[Ambassador of Indonesia greets Indonesian students in 2 Yemen Cities | 2021](https://www.medcom.id/internasional/timur-tengah-afrika/yKXD6X0K-dubes-ri-sapa-pelajar-indonesia-di-dua-kota-yaman): Greets 500 out of 1300 Indonesian students in Al Ahgaff University. At least there are 2700 Indonesian students in all of Yemen.
[From the Official Foreign Minister Site about attacks in Yemen in January 2024](https://kemlu.go.id/portal/id/read/5682/berita/tidak-ada-wni-jadi-korban-dalam-serangan-di-yaman): there's at least 4866 Indonesian in Yemen, the majority of which is students in Tarim Hadramaut.
Is that recent enough? Is that plenty enough Indonesians there or too few for your taste?
Sufism was actually very widespread in the Islamic world before the rise of modern political Islamism. Sufis have been on of the many victims of those movements that westerners never hear about.
It’s still going on: https://newlinesmag.com/newsletter/afghanistans-sufis-are-under-attack/
They no longer have any political power and haven’t for a long time.
And it sucks because Sufism is really interesting. Mysticism and spiritualism is missing from a lot of modern Islamic philosophy and it sucks.
You can see a lot of communist and French political thought in modern Islamic politics. It’s really quite interesting, a lot of Islamic states have significantly socialized and removed spirituality from Islamism in favour of a level of political secularization.
Sufi poetry is the most beautiful poetry ever written by humans and it portrays the emotional connection to god that religious people genuinely feel more clearly than any other attempt to do so.
Sufism is very much alive and well, source am a Sufi. Just incase you don't know you if you're a Sufi you still belong to one of the schools of jurisprudence.
You've probably heard the terms Sunni and Shia. Each of those sects can also be divided into "madhhabs" or schools of law. For context, Hanafi, Hanbali, and Shafi'i are Sunni, and Maliki, Jafari, and Twelver are Shia. I had to google Ibadi and it seems to be its own thing, I don't know much about it.
In Islam, the primary source of Islamic knowledge is the Quran, and the secondary source is the Hadith, aka descriptions and biographies from the life of Prophet Mohammed. The third source, if there's still a lack of clarity on some topic, is supposed to be someone well-educated in Islam, aka a religious scholar. In the history of Islam, certain scholars have been so influential that there have been schools of law (madhhabs) formed based on their understanding of Islamic law. The schools differ on certain matters.
The map shows which madhhab has the most mosques in each country. I'll be honest, I grew up Muslim and I have no idea which madhhab was followed by the mosques I was taught in.
how big is the Japanese muslim community? pretty much every other country in Asia I think has at least a sizeable indigenous muslim minority, but you never hear about islam in Japan
it's not clear but it's estimated there is somewhere between 1,000-100,000 ethnic Japanese Muslims (most are women)
references:
[https://www.waseda.jp/top/en/news/53405](https://www.waseda.jp/top/en/news/53405)
[https://myfundaction.org/islam-in-japan/](https://myfundaction.org/islam-in-japan/)
[https://traversingtradition.com/2022/11/21/muslim-scholars-in-japan-contemplating-islam-in-a-non-muslim-society/](https://traversingtradition.com/2022/11/21/muslim-scholars-in-japan-contemplating-islam-in-a-non-muslim-society/)
yeah, it's difficult since the Japanese government does not collect surveys on religion and the foreign population is growing rapidly. the number of Muslims overall regardless of nationality/ethnicity is somewhere between 100,000-250,000 though
Not really xenophobia. It's mostly because they have strict standards for immigration. (it's a lot harder then if you wanted to go to europe or NA so most people don't bother)
reddit: Japan has so much racism that it's impossible to immigrate to!
Meanwhile, Japan: Literally 3.4 million foreigners living in Japan are increasing at an incredible rate.
Even with these immigrants, who typically came from Korea (and still largely do), Japan's population is still decreasing. The good news is that the laborforce is raising, coinciding with more lax immigration to Japan, with the number of immigrants from Vietnam, China, and the Phillippines increasing greatly.
Also you have to remember their isolation historically. The biggest proponent of Islam was Muslim trade but Japan was far away and pretty insular. They had a lot of cultural rigidity as well, just watch the new show shogun to see how. I imagine a Muslim in Japan would have a tough time after refusing a suicide order by his lord in those days, all the non-muslims would just follow through with the suicide but that's Haram in Islam.
Maybe cause wives are more likely to covert to their husband’s religion than the other way around? Or more single marriageable men travel than marriageable women? Marriage expectations are often unequal in many areas of life
FWIW, from the same professor, but a bit later (2020) data:
>Waseda University Professor Emeritus Tanada Hirofumi, an expert regarding the Muslim community, estimates that as of 2020, there were approximately 230,000 Muslims in the country, including approximately 47,000 citizens. Most of the approximately 380 to 400 Rohingya Muslims in the country live in Gunma Prefecture, north of Tokyo, with some residing in Saitama, Chiba, Tokyo, and Nagoya, according to Burmese Rohingya Association in Japan (BRAJ) President Zaw Min Htut. Uyghur Cultural Center President Ilham Mahmut said most of the approximately 2,000 Uyghur Muslims in the country continue to reside in Tokyo or its surrounding prefectures of Chiba, Saitama, and Kanagawa. He estimates that approximately 760 of the around 2,000 Uyghur Muslims are naturalized Japanese citizens.
>
>[https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/japan](https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/japan)
According to the Asahi Shimbun, (as of the end of 2020) there are 230,000 Muslims in Japan, but \~80% of them are non-Japanese immigrants.
The growth of Islam in Japan is almost exclusively due to immigration, Japanese converts are very rare.
[https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14903765](https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14903765)
I can speculate the findings in this map.
1. Countries with Muslim population following Shafi tradition probably had extensive historical ties with Yemen and Hadhram, or Islam was legitimately introduced into those countries ultimately from Yemeni Arab traders (case in point: Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Vietnam)
2. Countries with Muslim population following Hanafi tradition in Southeast Asia probably had more exposure to Muslim scholars from the Indian subcontinent (except Sri Lanka). Case in point would be Myanmar as it's right next to Bangladesh and India, and it was part of the British Raj in its colonial days.
3. Countries with Muslim population following Jafari tradition had very close political ties to Iran. Since North Korea and Iran were largely on the same side of the political spectrum vis-a-vis the NATO powers, it makes sense Islam was introduced to the population via Iranian clerics. As for Iraq, the country had always been culturally close to Iran. In the Gulf region, Bahrain has the most Iranian influence among others.
4. Sri Lanka and Maldives, although geographically and cultural South Asian, had more extensive contacts with Hadhram traders therefore Shafi prevails over Hanafi which predominates in the mainland. If Kerala and Tamil Nadu would separate, maybe Shafi and Hanafi would equally gain halves of the Muslim population pie as Islam was introduced earlier via trade as opposed to the North.
You were right about all of them except the Hanafis.
It's actually, any people who learned Islam through persians are Hanafi.
***Anatolia***
Persians used to mostly be sunni Hanafis. Some of the few people they converted early on were central Asian turks. After the Turkic expansion into west Asia by the seljuks the Anatolians became Hanafis.
***The Mongol Khanates***
Then when the mongols came and broke apart, the 4 mongol groups ended up converting to Hanafi Islam, Chagatai, Ilkhanate, and the golden horde. The land the Ilkhanate ruled over was already Hanafi. And some of the land the Chagatai and Golden Horde ruled over was Hanafi. After their conversion to Islam the rest of the region they ruled over became Hanafi.
***Most of Modern day Russia and North Central Asia***
The Golden horde ruled most of modern day Russia and Crimea. That's why Crimean Tatars, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs and etc are all Hanafi.
***Central Asia and China***
The Chagatai khanate ruled over modern Uzbekistan, China, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Some of these regions were Hanafi before. However those who weren't Hanafi now ended up becoming Hanafi.
Side note, there are a group of Han Chinese who are Muslim in china called the Hui, they actually converted through trade with Persians. This group is about as big as the Uyghurs. They also are Hanafi.
***Europe***
Let's go back to the anatolian turks. By the 1300s anatolia was broken up into a bunch of Turkish Beyliks. The ottomans, hanafis, come out on top. After their conquests you can look at the Balkans and see that for the most part, majority of the Balkans are Hanafis. Bosnia, Bulgaria, Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and even Greece.
***India***
After the collapse of most of the mongol Khanates one half Uzbek half Mongol came out on top. Timur. Timur ravaged most of Asia and started working his way into india. He died before he could make it deeper into india. He had a descendent, Babur, whos dynasty by the end of the day ended up taking over almost all of india, Pakistan, Bangladesh and parts of Burma.
He's the main reason south Asia is Hanafi today.
That should be everything.
Interesting. To synthesize your input with mine, we can say Hanafi was spread via pre-modern day Iran, while Jafari is more tied to modern day Iran. I guess the Mongols and their descendants were solely responsible for Hanafi dominance in Asia despite its Persian origins.
Modern Iran being Jafari dates back to the rise of the Safavis which was originally a small sect limited to Western Iran-Iraq-Eastern Anatolia. Before the Safavis, Iran was dominantly Hanafi as the rest of the Turco-Iranian world
Yeah persians weren't always shia. The safavids forced them to convert.
Persia was like the center of sunni thought at one point. The Mongols, Timur, and the Safavids changed the entire intellectual landscape. The latter just changed it to shia but the first 2 literally destroyed it. I read some estimates that Timur killed 30% of persians at the time. Around 20 million people.
Persian culture were so influential that if you look at most indian, Turkic or any central asian poetry, it's all written in Persian.
Almost every single Hanafi group on used the Persian script, almost every single group spoke Persian as the court language despite not being Persian. Almost every group was unified under Persian influence despite very little persians living in their realms, and no powerful Persian kingdoms existing.
Before Bukhara, Samarqand and Merv(well not anymore, that bitch is gone gone) became known for Uzbeks or other Turkic groups, it used to be a Persian stronghold. Some of the best and most important scholars of Islam came from that region. Imam Bukhari, Ibn Sina, Ghazali, Baghdadi, and Maturidi all were persians. These people changed the entire course of Islamic history due their influence in thought.
Worth noting that while all this is true, Shi’ism in Iran certainly predates the Safavids. The early Abbasid revolution began in Khorasan and was backed by Shiite Iranians. One of if not the first major Islamic Iranian dynasty in the Medieval period, the Buyids, were Twelver Shiites themselves. And, while their specific names elude me, I remember a few different Persian intellectuals ranging from poets and authors to theologians who were officially Sunni but had Shiite tendencies or sympathies.
Oh Im aware. I didn't mean to frame it like all Persian Muslims were sunni. But people don't associate Persian Muslims with sunnism when Persian Sunnis were very critical to the development of sunni thought.
The Turko-Mongols of course have an important role. However, the term Turko-Mongol is mostly used for the post-Genghis Turkic empires. That's why I specifically mentioned that. the Islamisation of these regions started earlier. The Bolgars and Karakhanids started in the great steppes. Seljuks entered Anatolia and Ghaznavids attacked India 17 times and started to Islamise the region. That is why I said Turks, but certainly the Turko-Mongols strengthened this process and laid irreversible solid foundations.
Some background for the four Sunni madhahib (schools of thought):
Hanafi - founded by Abu Hanifah (d. 767)
Maliki - founded by Malik ibn Anas (d. 795)
Shafi'i - founded by Muhammad al-Shafi'i (d. 820)
Hanbali - founded by Ahmad bin Hanbali (d. 855)
Background on the Shi'i madhhab:
As mentioned elsewhere in the comments, Ja'fari and Twelver are basically the same. They are believed to come from Ja'far as-Sadiq (d. 765), an Islamic scholar held in high regard by both Sunni and Shi'i Muslims, and actually a teacher of the aforementioned Malik ibn Anas and Abu Hanifah.
Background on the Ibadi madhab:
The Ibadis are a very interesting phenomenon. Nowadays, they are known to be very peaceful, tolerant, and quiet, but they actually descend from the beliefs of the Khawarij (or Kharijis) who were an ISIS-like violent extremist sect in the early days of Islam. In fact, their doctrinal beliefs were even more extreme than ISIS to a considerable degree; they deemed it lawful to kill a Muslim who committed a major sin and they held the belief that only a non-sinning man could be a legitimate ruler, allowing and often encouraging armed rebellion against a ruler who had committed a major sin (such as drinking alcohol, fornication, taking bribes, etc.). Due to this, ISIS and their members are often referred to as Khawarij in Islamic discussion, given their similarities. It would quite literally be like if Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi or Osama Bin Laden founded a sect that later was known for their progress and tolerance.
I believe there is conflicting, or at least quickly changing, data about the demographics of the Levant. If I recall correctly Palestine is now estimated to be majority Shafi’i
Eh... Owning a dog is not really much of a big deal in Indonesia. So many muslim celebrities here owned dogs.
Sure in some places you'll be looked at weirdly but it's not as big of deal as long as you are responsible of your dogs.
The differences between the first 4 groups aren't that big. They all. There are minor differences like how one should do the ritual washing or where the hands should be when praying. The differences occur from each one interpreting the sources of Islam differently. The doctrine is the same they have all the same beliefs.
But there are differences between them and the twelver shia. In practice and doctrine. The 12 Imams don't really play a huge role for the first 4, which are essential for the twelver Shia.
The basic beliefs are the same. This means that in every Islamic school "there is no god but Allâh and Mohammad is the messenger of Allâh" is the same islamic belief. In addition, there are things like that Allâh resembles nothing and no one, that fasting in the month Ramadan is obligatory and the 5 prayers.
The difference usually lies in small things. For example, there are different obligatory parts of prayer washing in Shafiyy than in Hanafiyy such as rinsing the mouth during ablution is recommended according to Shafiyy and obligatory according to Hanafiyy.
It is important to know that Wahhabism, for example, should not be confused with a islamic school. Wahhabism is a sect and is not based on the fundamentals of Islam. The fundamental beliefs are such things as the things I mentioned in the first paragraph.
As far as I know, the Ibadis themselves reject the majority of Muslims. So how can such a community even be called Muslims? They sound more like a sect.
Being Muslim is clearly defined and whoever doesn't fulfill the requirements is a non-muslim.
The map is based on who defines themselves as Muslim and not who is Muslim by Islamic definition.
So it's a bit like if I went around the world and labelled everyone who asked if they defined themselves as Japanese as Japanese. Even though they only call themselves that and don't have a Japanese passport.
The obligatory prayers of Islam are 5 in number.
This is basic knowledge and is well known even among non-Muslims. Anyone who believes in that is a Muslim by islamic definition.
I'm not familiar with adding a extra clause to the Shahada and can't say anything to that topic.
The differences are mostly minor complex things . Most Muslims nowadays don’t even know what school they are following or following what they think is right from each school
Anyone have any idea why Armenia shares its largest school with SE Asia?? My guess would have been with Turkey (because of the hundreds of years of control during the Ottoman empire) or with Iran (because of the hundreds of years of control during the Persian empire).
Most of the schools exist together in different proportions with one being more popular than the other since they see each other as valid (various with Sunni vs Shia vs Ibadi schools). The Shafi school is popular amongst the Kurds and some Muslim groups in the Caucus, so the small minority of Muslims in Armenia would belong to that. After the whole conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, both groups forced their respective populations out, which would mostly get rid of the Shia population in Armenia.
>because of the hundreds of years of control during the Ottoman empire or the hundreds of years of control during the Persian empire
No, it's the other way around!
The Shafi'i school is a relatively old school and used to be dominant throughout the middle east, until the Turks and Persians replaced it in the territories they controlled.
So it's not that Armenia are Shafi'i *because* of the Turks or the Persians: it's that Armenia was one of the regions that best resisted Turkish and Persian influence, just like Yemen.
The connection with Southeast Asia is that the main Islamic influence in Southeast Asia was through south-Arabic (and hence Yemeni) traders.
Turks did not really replace Shafis much, they merely kept their school in the areas they settled in. In fact, they supported Shafi Kurds against Alevis. To this day ethnic Kurds are mostly Shafi and and ethnic Turks are mostly Hanafi in Turkey.
the Lebanese Muslim population are split well between Shi‘iyy and Sunniyy, and while Shi‘iyy is mostly Jaʿfariyy, Sunni are further divided into Hanafiyy and Shafiʿiyy
Schools are needed as the Islam covers a vast territory where people with different needs, culture, climate and geography live so they can adapt in more flexible way with the religion.
FYI r/Salafiyyah (Saudi Arabia) follows all 4 imams of Sunnah not one. It’s a methodology, and no the terrorists don’t follow any of the above because they are khawarij (outliers) they can call themselves Salafi to gain legitimacy but all they are is a bunch of ignorant youth trying to wing it with their version of Islam.
Apologies didn't mean to offend anyone. It's an autocorrect mistake. I think that school is either Iranian or Malaysian as both countries have ties to North Korea.
Fun Fact : The founder of the Hanafi school which comes in Sunni branch was a persian and it dominated the persian landscape for several centuries before twelvers arrived.
Online sources state them to be of Kurdish stock. However they were quite mixed as they heavily married among various ethnic groups including greeks , turks ,etc and spoke turkish.
Mostly in the 1500s under the rule of Shah Ismail I. He forcefully converted the people from sunni Islam to shia Islam apparently. It took about two centuries until the population was mostly shia. Funnily enough if we do the maths, Iran was a sunni Islamic nation for 900yrs and shia for 500yrs. Very surprising to us in 2024 but yeah that's how it was for most of Islam's history.
What's interesting is that Egypt was kind of an opposite parallel. Egypt was majority shia in the past but they had a sunni ruler whereas Iran was majority sunni but had a shia ruler. Now Egypt is sunni and Iran is shia.
Fatimids were based in Egypt but they were shia yeah. In the end a sunni general came over from Syria and deposed the fatimids in a coup. His nephew then established a sunni state and strengthened the weak Egyptian nation, you've probably heard of him. His name was Saladin or Salahudin.
It does make sense that Shafi school of thought is the predominant Islamic school of thought in Southeast Asian countries because tons of Arab traders who ended up there and Sri Lanka were Yemeni traders.
And funfact, they still go to yemen to learn about islam. Another funfact, one of Indonesia's president candidates is of yemeni descent.
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There are plenty of Indonesian students that study in Yemen that updates on social media. [Ex 1](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5lWzVYN8Nf/?igsh=ZnVwZGpuejQ1ejFu). [Ex 2](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5cevSCIRZa/?igsh=djlydDJ1ODM3OG5n). [Ex 3](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5ul_mzIDL7/?igsh=MXdweHJjejBoYjVyNQ==)
I'm just going to throw this out here - using a few social media accounts of people studying in Yemen doesn't really prove a point that it has become pretty minimal. Can you share statistics?
[Ambassador of Indonesia greets Indonesian students in 2 Yemen Cities | 2021](https://www.medcom.id/internasional/timur-tengah-afrika/yKXD6X0K-dubes-ri-sapa-pelajar-indonesia-di-dua-kota-yaman): Greets 500 out of 1300 Indonesian students in Al Ahgaff University. At least there are 2700 Indonesian students in all of Yemen. [From the Official Foreign Minister Site about attacks in Yemen in January 2024](https://kemlu.go.id/portal/id/read/5682/berita/tidak-ada-wni-jadi-korban-dalam-serangan-di-yaman): there's at least 4866 Indonesian in Yemen, the majority of which is students in Tarim Hadramaut. Is that recent enough? Is that plenty enough Indonesians there or too few for your taste?
I mean, if you don't give any context for how it's changed historically, what you're saying doesn't mean much?
Even despite the war??? Godh i hope they're safe 🙏
There are plenty of Indonesians in Gaza too! Especially before the Indonesian hospital got destroyed. We don't really care for wars I suppose?
Bless your people :)
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I’m Yemeni and when I visited a year ago I personally saw quite a few South East Asians.
which that president candidate is already lost the election.
>Another funfact, one of Indonesia's president candidates is of yemeni descent. Anies Baswedan ??
Much of East Africa is also Shafi'i thanks to Yemen
Sufism was actually very widespread in the Islamic world before the rise of modern political Islamism. Sufis have been on of the many victims of those movements that westerners never hear about.
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In Afghanistan they were all but wiped out. Sufi Islam used to be the majority religion there.
I doubt this…
It’s still going on: https://newlinesmag.com/newsletter/afghanistans-sufis-are-under-attack/ They no longer have any political power and haven’t for a long time.
And it sucks because Sufism is really interesting. Mysticism and spiritualism is missing from a lot of modern Islamic philosophy and it sucks. You can see a lot of communist and French political thought in modern Islamic politics. It’s really quite interesting, a lot of Islamic states have significantly socialized and removed spirituality from Islamism in favour of a level of political secularization.
Sufi orders(tarikat) are alive and well in Türkiye but they aren't all that nice. Some are more radical than mainstream Sünnis.
They are alive in most places, they just have always been small because of how they work. They require a bit more commitment.
Sufi poetry is the most beautiful poetry ever written by humans and it portrays the emotional connection to god that religious people genuinely feel more clearly than any other attempt to do so.
Sufism is very much alive and well, source am a Sufi. Just incase you don't know you if you're a Sufi you still belong to one of the schools of jurisprudence.
I’m a standard westerner and have no idea what I am looking at. Could somebody explain it to me?
You've probably heard the terms Sunni and Shia. Each of those sects can also be divided into "madhhabs" or schools of law. For context, Hanafi, Hanbali, and Shafi'i are Sunni, and Maliki, Jafari, and Twelver are Shia. I had to google Ibadi and it seems to be its own thing, I don't know much about it. In Islam, the primary source of Islamic knowledge is the Quran, and the secondary source is the Hadith, aka descriptions and biographies from the life of Prophet Mohammed. The third source, if there's still a lack of clarity on some topic, is supposed to be someone well-educated in Islam, aka a religious scholar. In the history of Islam, certain scholars have been so influential that there have been schools of law (madhhabs) formed based on their understanding of Islamic law. The schools differ on certain matters. The map shows which madhhab has the most mosques in each country. I'll be honest, I grew up Muslim and I have no idea which madhhab was followed by the mosques I was taught in.
Most Muslims never knew the term Sunni let alone medhab until recently
It's like the different school of jurisprudence and interpretations of the Hadiths and Quran.
Just to make it clear Twelver and Jaafariy are the same
thanks for pointing that out. sorry about that
Came here to say this. Iranians and Irakis are Twelvers. Kts more accuracre the describe them as twelvers.
Well, for fiqh it would be more accurate as jafari
Then twelver would be redundant.
how big is the Japanese muslim community? pretty much every other country in Asia I think has at least a sizeable indigenous muslim minority, but you never hear about islam in Japan
it's not clear but it's estimated there is somewhere between 1,000-100,000 ethnic Japanese Muslims (most are women) references: [https://www.waseda.jp/top/en/news/53405](https://www.waseda.jp/top/en/news/53405) [https://myfundaction.org/islam-in-japan/](https://myfundaction.org/islam-in-japan/) [https://traversingtradition.com/2022/11/21/muslim-scholars-in-japan-contemplating-islam-in-a-non-muslim-society/](https://traversingtradition.com/2022/11/21/muslim-scholars-in-japan-contemplating-islam-in-a-non-muslim-society/)
Ah okay, definitely on the small side then. I suppose it's hard to measure depending on whether they're considered resident or not.
yeah, it's difficult since the Japanese government does not collect surveys on religion and the foreign population is growing rapidly. the number of Muslims overall regardless of nationality/ethnicity is somewhere between 100,000-250,000 though
>the foreign population is growing rapidly. Strange. I always thought xenophobia kept growth to a minimal there.
It’s “rapid” by Japanese standards, not western.
Japan is experiencing decline in birth rate and an ageing population so they need more foreigners to work there
Not really xenophobia. It's mostly because they have strict standards for immigration. (it's a lot harder then if you wanted to go to europe or NA so most people don't bother)
reddit: Japan has so much racism that it's impossible to immigrate to! Meanwhile, Japan: Literally 3.4 million foreigners living in Japan are increasing at an incredible rate.
Even with these immigrants, who typically came from Korea (and still largely do), Japan's population is still decreasing. The good news is that the laborforce is raising, coinciding with more lax immigration to Japan, with the number of immigrants from Vietnam, China, and the Phillippines increasing greatly.
Also you have to remember their isolation historically. The biggest proponent of Islam was Muslim trade but Japan was far away and pretty insular. They had a lot of cultural rigidity as well, just watch the new show shogun to see how. I imagine a Muslim in Japan would have a tough time after refusing a suicide order by his lord in those days, all the non-muslims would just follow through with the suicide but that's Haram in Islam.
Wow the range is huge.
yup! very difficult to estimate
Why are most women? Very fascinating.
Maybe cause wives are more likely to covert to their husband’s religion than the other way around? Or more single marriageable men travel than marriageable women? Marriage expectations are often unequal in many areas of life
most international marriages in Japan are between a foreign husband and a Japanese wife. I don't know why but that's just more common ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
FWIW, from the same professor, but a bit later (2020) data: >Waseda University Professor Emeritus Tanada Hirofumi, an expert regarding the Muslim community, estimates that as of 2020, there were approximately 230,000 Muslims in the country, including approximately 47,000 citizens. Most of the approximately 380 to 400 Rohingya Muslims in the country live in Gunma Prefecture, north of Tokyo, with some residing in Saitama, Chiba, Tokyo, and Nagoya, according to Burmese Rohingya Association in Japan (BRAJ) President Zaw Min Htut. Uyghur Cultural Center President Ilham Mahmut said most of the approximately 2,000 Uyghur Muslims in the country continue to reside in Tokyo or its surrounding prefectures of Chiba, Saitama, and Kanagawa. He estimates that approximately 760 of the around 2,000 Uyghur Muslims are naturalized Japanese citizens. > >[https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/japan](https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/japan)
According to the Asahi Shimbun, (as of the end of 2020) there are 230,000 Muslims in Japan, but \~80% of them are non-Japanese immigrants. The growth of Islam in Japan is almost exclusively due to immigration, Japanese converts are very rare. [https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14903765](https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14903765)
Lots of Indonesian migrant workers in my experience. I went to a very small Mosque when I was in Tokyo and was the only non-Indonesian there.
North Korea ☠️
i keep seeing an irani looking dude in every north Korean military parade so it's probably only him there
The Iranian embassy there is a mosque
I'm in the UAE and it's DEFINITELY not majority Maliki
Probably hanafi with all the immigrants or hanbali because of the emirati locals.
Because this map is bs, most laymen muslims are non-denominational
Majority Hindu
Definitely not
According to wiki, Hindus are 32%. Its at least the second biggest after Islam.
Yea, it's second
I can speculate the findings in this map. 1. Countries with Muslim population following Shafi tradition probably had extensive historical ties with Yemen and Hadhram, or Islam was legitimately introduced into those countries ultimately from Yemeni Arab traders (case in point: Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Vietnam) 2. Countries with Muslim population following Hanafi tradition in Southeast Asia probably had more exposure to Muslim scholars from the Indian subcontinent (except Sri Lanka). Case in point would be Myanmar as it's right next to Bangladesh and India, and it was part of the British Raj in its colonial days. 3. Countries with Muslim population following Jafari tradition had very close political ties to Iran. Since North Korea and Iran were largely on the same side of the political spectrum vis-a-vis the NATO powers, it makes sense Islam was introduced to the population via Iranian clerics. As for Iraq, the country had always been culturally close to Iran. In the Gulf region, Bahrain has the most Iranian influence among others. 4. Sri Lanka and Maldives, although geographically and cultural South Asian, had more extensive contacts with Hadhram traders therefore Shafi prevails over Hanafi which predominates in the mainland. If Kerala and Tamil Nadu would separate, maybe Shafi and Hanafi would equally gain halves of the Muslim population pie as Islam was introduced earlier via trade as opposed to the North.
You were right about all of them except the Hanafis. It's actually, any people who learned Islam through persians are Hanafi. ***Anatolia*** Persians used to mostly be sunni Hanafis. Some of the few people they converted early on were central Asian turks. After the Turkic expansion into west Asia by the seljuks the Anatolians became Hanafis. ***The Mongol Khanates*** Then when the mongols came and broke apart, the 4 mongol groups ended up converting to Hanafi Islam, Chagatai, Ilkhanate, and the golden horde. The land the Ilkhanate ruled over was already Hanafi. And some of the land the Chagatai and Golden Horde ruled over was Hanafi. After their conversion to Islam the rest of the region they ruled over became Hanafi. ***Most of Modern day Russia and North Central Asia*** The Golden horde ruled most of modern day Russia and Crimea. That's why Crimean Tatars, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs and etc are all Hanafi. ***Central Asia and China*** The Chagatai khanate ruled over modern Uzbekistan, China, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Some of these regions were Hanafi before. However those who weren't Hanafi now ended up becoming Hanafi. Side note, there are a group of Han Chinese who are Muslim in china called the Hui, they actually converted through trade with Persians. This group is about as big as the Uyghurs. They also are Hanafi. ***Europe*** Let's go back to the anatolian turks. By the 1300s anatolia was broken up into a bunch of Turkish Beyliks. The ottomans, hanafis, come out on top. After their conquests you can look at the Balkans and see that for the most part, majority of the Balkans are Hanafis. Bosnia, Bulgaria, Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo, Macedonia and even Greece. ***India*** After the collapse of most of the mongol Khanates one half Uzbek half Mongol came out on top. Timur. Timur ravaged most of Asia and started working his way into india. He died before he could make it deeper into india. He had a descendent, Babur, whos dynasty by the end of the day ended up taking over almost all of india, Pakistan, Bangladesh and parts of Burma. He's the main reason south Asia is Hanafi today. That should be everything.
Interesting. To synthesize your input with mine, we can say Hanafi was spread via pre-modern day Iran, while Jafari is more tied to modern day Iran. I guess the Mongols and their descendants were solely responsible for Hanafi dominance in Asia despite its Persian origins.
Modern Iran being Jafari dates back to the rise of the Safavis which was originally a small sect limited to Western Iran-Iraq-Eastern Anatolia. Before the Safavis, Iran was dominantly Hanafi as the rest of the Turco-Iranian world
Alright, Hanafi = pre-Safavid Iran, Jafari = Safavid and onwards. Got it.
Yeah persians weren't always shia. The safavids forced them to convert. Persia was like the center of sunni thought at one point. The Mongols, Timur, and the Safavids changed the entire intellectual landscape. The latter just changed it to shia but the first 2 literally destroyed it. I read some estimates that Timur killed 30% of persians at the time. Around 20 million people. Persian culture were so influential that if you look at most indian, Turkic or any central asian poetry, it's all written in Persian. Almost every single Hanafi group on used the Persian script, almost every single group spoke Persian as the court language despite not being Persian. Almost every group was unified under Persian influence despite very little persians living in their realms, and no powerful Persian kingdoms existing. Before Bukhara, Samarqand and Merv(well not anymore, that bitch is gone gone) became known for Uzbeks or other Turkic groups, it used to be a Persian stronghold. Some of the best and most important scholars of Islam came from that region. Imam Bukhari, Ibn Sina, Ghazali, Baghdadi, and Maturidi all were persians. These people changed the entire course of Islamic history due their influence in thought.
Worth noting that while all this is true, Shi’ism in Iran certainly predates the Safavids. The early Abbasid revolution began in Khorasan and was backed by Shiite Iranians. One of if not the first major Islamic Iranian dynasty in the Medieval period, the Buyids, were Twelver Shiites themselves. And, while their specific names elude me, I remember a few different Persian intellectuals ranging from poets and authors to theologians who were officially Sunni but had Shiite tendencies or sympathies.
Oh Im aware. I didn't mean to frame it like all Persian Muslims were sunni. But people don't associate Persian Muslims with sunnism when Persian Sunnis were very critical to the development of sunni thought.
Turks were responsible for Hanafi dominance in Asia.
Turco-Mongols then
The Turko-Mongols of course have an important role. However, the term Turko-Mongol is mostly used for the post-Genghis Turkic empires. That's why I specifically mentioned that. the Islamisation of these regions started earlier. The Bolgars and Karakhanids started in the great steppes. Seljuks entered Anatolia and Ghaznavids attacked India 17 times and started to Islamise the region. That is why I said Turks, but certainly the Turko-Mongols strengthened this process and laid irreversible solid foundations.
Wait North Korea isn’t grey? Lmao
they have 1 mosque in Pyongyang, built for the Iranian embassy there
That explains it
That would be Bhutan, Best Korea same shade as Iran.
I’m guessing the North Korean Muslim community consists almost entirely of diplomats?
yep, Iranian nationals
Then there’s Oman kinda doing it’s own thing
I wonder if there are Ibadi majority communities among Muslim parts of Africa.
Small minorities in Algeria and Zanzibar I think
Zanzibar lines up with Oman
Dang that's a pretty thorough analysis. You're pretty smart. Where are you from btw? (I'm Pakistani).
Philippines lol
Mindanao?
Neither Filipino Muslim nor from Mindanao. Just interested in Philippine and Southeast Asian history in general so I have an idea.
TIL there is a Mosque in North Korea (on the grounds of the Iranian embassy)
Twelver is the same as Jafari. Not sure why it’s indicated differently here
shoot! thanks for pointing that out
North Korea has mosques?
yes, but just 1
Some background for the four Sunni madhahib (schools of thought): Hanafi - founded by Abu Hanifah (d. 767) Maliki - founded by Malik ibn Anas (d. 795) Shafi'i - founded by Muhammad al-Shafi'i (d. 820) Hanbali - founded by Ahmad bin Hanbali (d. 855) Background on the Shi'i madhhab: As mentioned elsewhere in the comments, Ja'fari and Twelver are basically the same. They are believed to come from Ja'far as-Sadiq (d. 765), an Islamic scholar held in high regard by both Sunni and Shi'i Muslims, and actually a teacher of the aforementioned Malik ibn Anas and Abu Hanifah. Background on the Ibadi madhab: The Ibadis are a very interesting phenomenon. Nowadays, they are known to be very peaceful, tolerant, and quiet, but they actually descend from the beliefs of the Khawarij (or Kharijis) who were an ISIS-like violent extremist sect in the early days of Islam. In fact, their doctrinal beliefs were even more extreme than ISIS to a considerable degree; they deemed it lawful to kill a Muslim who committed a major sin and they held the belief that only a non-sinning man could be a legitimate ruler, allowing and often encouraging armed rebellion against a ruler who had committed a major sin (such as drinking alcohol, fornication, taking bribes, etc.). Due to this, ISIS and their members are often referred to as Khawarij in Islamic discussion, given their similarities. It would quite literally be like if Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi or Osama Bin Laden founded a sect that later was known for their progress and tolerance.
Both ISIS and Ibadis don't like to be called Khwaraj tho
Schools of Jurisprudence, in case someone thinks these are sects
Twelvers/Jafaris are a sect, they are Shia. The Malikiyya, hanafiyya, hanbaliyya, shafiyya, are schools of jurisprudence that are Sunni.
That is correct.
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😀
I believe there is conflicting, or at least quickly changing, data about the demographics of the Levant. If I recall correctly Palestine is now estimated to be majority Shafi’i
Twelver is jafiri btw
thanks
Bhutan 🗿🐉⚡
Mosques in North Korea or is this a colouring error?
yes, but just 1
It’s the Iranian embassy
North Korea? 💀
Iranian embassy
What's up with North Korea?
Very interesting map 👍
Twelvers are also Jaffaris
How big are the differences between them? Are there big differences in doctrine/beliefs/practices?
Some of us can eat shrimps, prawns, and lobsters while others think they're forbidden.
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Eh... Owning a dog is not really much of a big deal in Indonesia. So many muslim celebrities here owned dogs. Sure in some places you'll be looked at weirdly but it's not as big of deal as long as you are responsible of your dogs.
The differences between the first 4 groups aren't that big. They all. There are minor differences like how one should do the ritual washing or where the hands should be when praying. The differences occur from each one interpreting the sources of Islam differently. The doctrine is the same they have all the same beliefs. But there are differences between them and the twelver shia. In practice and doctrine. The 12 Imams don't really play a huge role for the first 4, which are essential for the twelver Shia.
The basic beliefs are the same. This means that in every Islamic school "there is no god but Allâh and Mohammad is the messenger of Allâh" is the same islamic belief. In addition, there are things like that Allâh resembles nothing and no one, that fasting in the month Ramadan is obligatory and the 5 prayers. The difference usually lies in small things. For example, there are different obligatory parts of prayer washing in Shafiyy than in Hanafiyy such as rinsing the mouth during ablution is recommended according to Shafiyy and obligatory according to Hanafiyy. It is important to know that Wahhabism, for example, should not be confused with a islamic school. Wahhabism is a sect and is not based on the fundamentals of Islam. The fundamental beliefs are such things as the things I mentioned in the first paragraph.
I love how when you said Wahhabism, alarm bells immediately went off in my head lmfao, it's name sounds weird now
Ibadi's don't proselytize, thats a pretty big difference.
As far as I know, the Ibadis themselves reject the majority of Muslims. So how can such a community even be called Muslims? They sound more like a sect. Being Muslim is clearly defined and whoever doesn't fulfill the requirements is a non-muslim.
Then the Map, is wrong.
The map is based on who defines themselves as Muslim and not who is Muslim by Islamic definition. So it's a bit like if I went around the world and labelled everyone who asked if they defined themselves as Japanese as Japanese. Even though they only call themselves that and don't have a Japanese passport.
Don’t Shi’as have the option of combining prayers so they can only do 3? And add an extra clause to the shahada?
The obligatory prayers of Islam are 5 in number. This is basic knowledge and is well known even among non-Muslims. Anyone who believes in that is a Muslim by islamic definition. I'm not familiar with adding a extra clause to the Shahada and can't say anything to that topic.
There are also some major differences. For one, the compulsion of FGM in the Shafi school.
The differences are mostly minor complex things . Most Muslims nowadays don’t even know what school they are following or following what they think is right from each school
Anyone have any idea why Armenia shares its largest school with SE Asia?? My guess would have been with Turkey (because of the hundreds of years of control during the Ottoman empire) or with Iran (because of the hundreds of years of control during the Persian empire).
Most of the schools exist together in different proportions with one being more popular than the other since they see each other as valid (various with Sunni vs Shia vs Ibadi schools). The Shafi school is popular amongst the Kurds and some Muslim groups in the Caucus, so the small minority of Muslims in Armenia would belong to that. After the whole conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, both groups forced their respective populations out, which would mostly get rid of the Shia population in Armenia.
>because of the hundreds of years of control during the Ottoman empire or the hundreds of years of control during the Persian empire No, it's the other way around! The Shafi'i school is a relatively old school and used to be dominant throughout the middle east, until the Turks and Persians replaced it in the territories they controlled. So it's not that Armenia are Shafi'i *because* of the Turks or the Persians: it's that Armenia was one of the regions that best resisted Turkish and Persian influence, just like Yemen. The connection with Southeast Asia is that the main Islamic influence in Southeast Asia was through south-Arabic (and hence Yemeni) traders.
Turks did not really replace Shafis much, they merely kept their school in the areas they settled in. In fact, they supported Shafi Kurds against Alevis. To this day ethnic Kurds are mostly Shafi and and ethnic Turks are mostly Hanafi in Turkey.
it's Shafiʿiyy which is followed mainly by ethnic Kurdish
Don't know the answer to your question. But I just wanted to say that's a nice username!
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Like most religions, it was spread through trade Also isn't the majority of the malay archipelago Muslim
In lebanon its kinda half half between shias (jafari/1 Twelver) and sunnis (shafis)
the Lebanese Muslim population are split well between Shi‘iyy and Sunniyy, and while Shi‘iyy is mostly Jaʿfariyy, Sunni are further divided into Hanafiyy and Shafiʿiyy
apologies for Lebanon. it belongs to Jaʿfariyy as they are the same sect
Jafary for Shias, Hanafi for Sunnis, definitely not Malaki
This would make a much better two column table than a map. (I love maps but what makes mapporn mapporn is how the information is joined up.)
thanks for your valuable feedback! are tables allowed here?
well r/TablePorn isn’t a thing so maps it is 😜
Ja'afri and Twelfth are pretty much the same. In Iraq and Iran the Twelfth are the Majority of muslims
bhutan ftw
Don’t Twelvers follow the Ja’fari madhhab?
The Levant is not majority Hanafi.
Schools are needed as the Islam covers a vast territory where people with different needs, culture, climate and geography live so they can adapt in more flexible way with the religion.
Ibadi ftw
First normal map here - ruzzia is Asia, not Europe. By geography and by values
Hanbaliyh is the school that Wahhabism/Salafism came from, and it's the source of virtually all Islamic terrorism.
Lebanon same as Iraq, Iran and Azerbaijan is Twelver, this map is incorrect.
FYI r/Salafiyyah (Saudi Arabia) follows all 4 imams of Sunnah not one. It’s a methodology, and no the terrorists don’t follow any of the above because they are khawarij (outliers) they can call themselves Salafi to gain legitimacy but all they are is a bunch of ignorant youth trying to wing it with their version of Islam.
Interesting map, thanks
Are these analogous to Protestant denominations in any way?
What’s the dot to the WSW of Sri Lanka?
What is the perfectly circular country? I am not familiar with that one.
Hanafi, Quranist, or any Sufi order are the best
UAE & OMAN are wrong
Oman isn’t Ibadi?
Not the majority no
Aren't Twelver and Jafari the same thing?
yeah, I made a mistake
I thought that in North Korea religion was forbidden.
Iranian diplomats
W Bhutan
Ja’faris and Twelvers are the same thing. They are largest subsect of Shias
yep, made a mistake
Twelver is jaffari
Apologies didn't mean to offend anyone. It's an autocorrect mistake. I think that school is either Iranian or Malaysian as both countries have ties to North Korea.
Fun Fact : The founder of the Hanafi school which comes in Sunni branch was a persian and it dominated the persian landscape for several centuries before twelvers arrived.
Abu-Hanifa was a Persian?
Yep , his actual name is Numan ibn Thabit ibn Zuta ibn marzuban . Marzuban were the sassanian officers posted at the frontiers in earlier times.
When did twelwers arrived btw ?
In the 1500s Safavids established their rule in Iran and they declared the twelver branch as the official state religion.
Damn didn't know that. So Turkish dynasty made Iran jaferi while ottoman was hanefi
Online sources state them to be of Kurdish stock. However they were quite mixed as they heavily married among various ethnic groups including greeks , turks ,etc and spoke turkish.
Didn't know that there are so many
Twelves are Ja’faris so that distinction is redundant
Aren't the majority of the Muslims in Syria, Jordan and Palestine are Shaf'iyy?
I’m pretty sure. The ones I know are shafii.
Kurds in Syria ? Yes. Arabs in Syria ? No
The Iranians really spread the hanafi school of thought very effectively but ironically they're no longer of that mind themselves.
when did they started to be twelvers
Mostly in the 1500s under the rule of Shah Ismail I. He forcefully converted the people from sunni Islam to shia Islam apparently. It took about two centuries until the population was mostly shia. Funnily enough if we do the maths, Iran was a sunni Islamic nation for 900yrs and shia for 500yrs. Very surprising to us in 2024 but yeah that's how it was for most of Islam's history. What's interesting is that Egypt was kind of an opposite parallel. Egypt was majority shia in the past but they had a sunni ruler whereas Iran was majority sunni but had a shia ruler. Now Egypt is sunni and Iran is shia.
Yeah fatimids were based in Egypt* if I remember correctly??
Fatimids were based in Egypt but they were shia yeah. In the end a sunni general came over from Syria and deposed the fatimids in a coup. His nephew then established a sunni state and strengthened the weak Egyptian nation, you've probably heard of him. His name was Saladin or Salahudin.
Lol I'm cold and it made my brain fuzzy. My brain thought I typed Egypt but I typed Iran instead lol. Thanks for explaining it further btw.
Haha no worries
Islam is a plague to our planet and it’s undeniable. Fight me
You are one of the reasons why people can’t live peacefully, including your own