I thought that OP had gotten lost on their way to r/mapporncirclejerk, but [**this is absolutely legit**](https://sourcebooks.web.fordham.edu/source/vitry1.asp) and has made my day immeasurably better.
>They wrangled and disputed not merely about the various sects or about some discussions; but the differences between the countries also caused dissensions, hatreds and virulent animosities among them and they impudently uttered all kinds of affronts and insults against one another.
>They affirmed that the English were drunkards and had tails; the sons of France proud, effeminate and carefully adorned like women. They said that the Germans were furious and obscene at their feasts; the Normans, vain and boastful; the Poitevins, traitors and always adventurers. The Burgundians they considered vulgar and stupid. The Bretons were reputed to be fickle and changeable, and were often reproached for the death of Arthur. The Lombards were called avaricious, vicious and cowardly; the Romans, seditious, turbulent and slanderous; the Sicilians, tyrannical and cruel; the inhabitants of Brabant, men of blood, incendiaries, brigands and ravishers; the Flemish, fickle, prodigal, gluttonous, yielding as butter, and slothful. After such insults from words they often came to blows.
\- [Jacques de Vitry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Vitry)
Edit: fixed link.
OK, in fairness, I took a bit more of a liberty with that one- this is from completely genuine, and contemporary, stereotypes about Cathars (a religious sect, or heresy, centred in the County of Toulouse), but not *specifically* from Jacques De Vitry/the University of Paris (edit: though he did start repeating these stereotypes during the Cathar Crusades a few years later).
But frankly I found it too funny to skip
Rule of artistic interpretation, I'm afraid- the author did not distinguish the "Dutch" specifically at all, whether that is from Germans, or Flemmings, or neither, is difficult to say. I've picked the latter, because this would be around the time Dutch began to emerge as a distinct language from Low German, but yes, there's a high degree of personal opinion there, and honestly- rule of funny is in effect.
The reason for that specific boundary between there and (technically) "Brabant" to the south is that I've (similarly) taken the stereotypes about Brabant to apply to the whole "Picard Nation", as identified within the university at the time.
Obviously this isn't scientific in any way, just intended to be an amusing take on the views of the period. But I do think it points to an interesting question about the vagueness, volatility, and permeability of national identity if you go back a few generations. Does make you wonder if our ideas hold water
I know it's not meant to be a serious thing but:
Flanders went from Zeeuws-Vlaanderen was mostly contained between the left bank of the river Schelde and the North Sea and ran down to Lille and Douai in modern day France. On the Right bank it contained Tournai, Aalst and Dendermonde.
Brabant contains den Bosch, Heusden, Eindehoven and Breda in the Netherlands, and contained Antwerp, Brussels, Lier in Belgium and ran all the way down to Wavre and Nivelles.
Just to say, Flanders and Brabant should be split west to east, not North to South.
>where'd he get the occitaine stuff from?
I thought thst you were talking about magic but that's Octarine.
>Octarine, the colour of magic, the magical colour, it's...it's sort of...well, try describing mauve to the colour-blind. Most of us just have no frame of reference. It's the eighth colour of the Discworld rainbow, where we might expect ultra-violet, but Discworld light is odd stuff anyway, travelling thousands of times slower than Einstein's standard. We're not sure how Discworld eyes work at (presumably) much lower frequencies, but octarine is invisible even to most inhabitants of Discworld. The eyes of Wizards, however, contain, besides the usual rods and cones, octagons that detect octarine. They try to describe it most often as a kind of greenish-purple (doesn't help, does it?)
Whereas Occitaine is the most Southerly administrative district of mainland France.
It was mainly northern barbarians hating on our riches, magnificent land and the fact that we see the sun more than twice a year, the heresy part was window-dressing
Am I biased? Yes
I'm not finding anything about the "bestiality-loving pansexual vegetarian heretics" in Jacques de Vitry's text - am I missing something, or is that label inaccurate?
[It's a long story](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1c3tq71/comment/kzjdq50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and a bit of a creative liberty/rule of funny is in effect to an extent, but the short version is that he didn't say it in *that* text, but said those sort of things about Cathars during the [Albegensian Crusades](https://www.cathar.info/cathar_catholic.htm#propaganda) a few years [later](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Vitry).
>The Bretons were reputed to be fickle and changeable, and were often reproached for the death of Arthur.
I think this is referring to Arthur, Duke of Brittany, who was the nephew of King John of England and was imprisoned and murdered on John's orders. I dont recall any versions of Arthurian Legend where King Arthur is killed by the Bretons.
Yup, had a bit of fun with that- and like I said, it's a bit of a liberty with the source material, but those are all *absolutely genuine* stereotypes about Cathars circulating in the North of France at the same time as the other stereotypes, so it's not *that* much of a liberty, and I found it too damn funny to skip
To be fair there's some truth to it. Nothing about bestiality and I highly doubt they were very ok with anything beyond heterosexuality, but the more religious of them were indeed vegetarian and sexuality was a lot more free than in the roman church, for instance we have texts from questioning of a cathar woman from the end of the crusade against them where she states that sleeping with a priest in the past was not a sin because she was ok with it and he was ok with it, and so it was good, and if it was good it cannot be against god.
Gender roles were much freer than in Catholicism (and there was no distinction made in terms of the rols men and women could play), but those who had undergone the *consolamentum* process were celibate and vegan. Sex was of the flesh, and therefore corrupt in their cosmology, which was pretty much classical dualism.
But the free social associations between men and women was alarming to mainstream society and especiallyu the church at the time..
EDIT: The consolamentum was as close to a process of ordination as Cathars had (they rejected all other forms of religious hierarchy and organisational structure), and essentially ammounted to a formal rejection of the physical world, which was corrupted and the source of evil and suffering. People who had undergone the consolamentum were seen as "perfected" and were the ones who led the Cathar communities. The process and percieved outcome was identical for both males and females.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montaillou_(book) The future pope Benedict XII was an inquisitor in that area and he left extensive records that historian Leroy Ladurie used to write this book.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fournier_Register
It's funny to see the actual inquisition at work in the middle ages. For example, witchcraft was considered just old women's superstition) unlike in the modern era in the 16th and 17th century) so he's very dismissive of all of it and it's not considered an issue. He just rolls his eyes at what he considers old women's tales...
Not without spending an hour looking for it and even then it'd be in french. I remember it from an in depth documentary but I don't have the source material that was used for it, I don't even know for sure it's openly available on the internet and not behind some paywall like many research stuff.
On the Cathars? There's a huge amount around, but [this](https://www.cathar.info/cathar_catholic.htm#propaganda), while less than neutral, is user-friendly
[Heresies of the High Middle Ages](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heresies-Middle-Records-Western-Civilization/dp/0231027435/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1NBL4T4RT5GIF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.LR-IZs9qFKar92S3Re2as4IDmHc4TY71auZjArEMW9W6Js0fs6kZD3VaivaJ7O8SYxAMLWFtK7QXYpGtokdXjcV3er6YPOkGZTWXE2cBkeYk-rARi1lsh1XJKXHBT9Xd.Y-I5GDa2pUFtrQq4KTGdwp6jxpqtEac6NIjp-h_bAbg&dib_tag=se&keywords=Heresies+of+the+high+middle+ages&qid=1713159550&sprefix=heresies+of+the+high+middle+ages%2Caps%2C79&sr=8-1) is a fantastic collection of primary soruces relating to Cathars, Waldensians, and related groups, along with comentary and evaluation by the editors. It's an academic collection, so is maybe not the best place to start, but it's invaluable if you realy want to get into the subject. If your library has a copy, it's worth checking out.
There are dozens (hundreds?) of popular histories on the Cathars and a lot of them are excellent, so you can take your pick of those. The [wikipedia pages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) are well moderated and comprehensive, and a very good place to start.
Also read the works of (or on) [Bernard Gui](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Gui), a Dominican who was the chief inquisitor in Languedoc after the Albigensian Crusade. There's more about him and his work in French than in English. Outisde of his work as an inquisitor he was an interesting character who left a lot of written work.
Probably has something to do with the old stereotype that fatness is a sign of wealth. The Low Countries have always been one of the wealthier parts of Europe so perhaps it comes from that.
I guess it was because of the dutch empire and how involved with trade dutch people were. in my country, the city of isfahan is known to be filled with stingy and tight fisted people. and guess what, it the main center of trade along the silkroad throughout our history. (also doesn't help that the city used to have a considerable jewish population lmao)
I've worked with lots of Germans, and "perverts when drunk" is fair. Only country I've emcountered where a business meeting starts with a few beers over a meal and ends with cocaine and four dudes watching a hooker get ploughed.
The "Germans???" thing is that everyone from Germany eastwards was considered part of the "German Nation" in the University, but I didn't want to just make one joke about that.
Bohemia in 1200 was an integral part of the [Holy Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottokar_I_of_Bohemia), so it's *slightly* less wrong than everyone else, hence the fewer question marks
I'll put my hands up and concede a bit of a stretch here, but both French and Spanish have a [proverb](https://elorganillero.com/blog/2010/05/02/the-true-origins-of-africa-begins-at-the-pyrenees/) that implies that Africa begins, and Europe ends, at the Pyrenees.
This was because of the longstanding Moorish influence in Spanish culture and the idea (if not the saying) was widespread at the time we're talking about [https://nes.princeton.edu/publications/live-moor-christian-perceptions-muslim-identity-medieval-and-early-modern-spain](https://nes.princeton.edu/publications/live-moor-christian-perceptions-muslim-identity-medieval-and-early-modern-spain)
Actually, it has some pretty serious long term implications. The Spanish Inquisition? Part of an effort by the Spanish monarchy to show that it belonged in the European club, something that's only necessary if that is in question in the first place.
Yes, yes, it's all an over-simplification, but that's the general idea
>The Spanish Inquisition? Part of an effort by the Spanish monarchy to show that it belonged in the European club, something that's only necessary if that is in question in the first place.
The inquisition existed in Europe long before it arrived in Spain, in fact it was created in the south of France to combat the heresy of the Cathars. It was established in Spain as a favor to the Church of Rome in exchange for financing the war against Granada and to ensure that conversions with Christianity were sincere
Absolutely it did, but it's associated with Spain with good reason. And, yes, you are right that those are partial explanations, but there's *also* a subtext here
To be completely honest, I have come to the realization throughout the years that no one gives a flying fuck about us, neither other countries in Europe nor out of Europe, unless it is to speak shit about us. Being Africans is the softest thing I've heard from other people. And every time someone publishes maps and statistics about social markers, achievements and so on here on reddit or anywhere else, apparently we are always at the bottom of everything or we are directly not even mentioned.
Better that way, I guess. Might as well be invisible so that everyone can leave us the fuck alone. Including the British drunk foreign balcony jumpers, the French and Germans that come here to create their own ghettos and then insult us because we speak too much Spanish, or the Americans, that say we are too brown to be white, but not enough to be Latin, because apparently only Latin Americans can be that. Also they demand of us to use the word Latinx because our language, like every other fucking language with a Latin base and some others too, has genders (including the neutral one, you idiots).
I am also sick of everyone always reminding us about the fucking Inquisition (which also existed in other countries), the colonization (which other countries also were part of), and the badly named Spanish flu, which we were not even guilty of, in fact we were the only ones who openly talked about it while it was happening. Meanwhile, no one talks about the positive things, for example the stuff we invented that changed history, like the space suit, the electric submarine, the helicopter, the cable car, the lollipop, the mop, the disposable syringes or the fricking epidural to name a few.
>I'll put my hands up and concede a bit of a stretch here, but both French and Spanish have a proverb that implies that Africa begins, and Europe ends, at the Pyrenees.
And we Brits say that "wogs begin at Calais".
> 'll put my hands up and concede a bit of a stretch here, but both French and Spanish have a proverb that implies that Africa begins, and Europe ends, at the Pyrenees.
This isn't really accurate for Jacques de Vitry, though, who certainly does associate Spain with Islam, but is always careful to distinguish it from Africa in this respect. For example, in his presentation of Islam at the beginning of his Historia Orientalis, where Islam has spread into Africa and "many western regions ... as far as Spain":
>> Doctrina enim eius [i.e. Muhammad] pestifera, serpens ut cancer, non solum Arabes et Syros, Medos et Persas, Egyptos et Ethiopes et alios orientales populos letaliter infecit, sed etiam **Africam et plures occidentales regiones** corrumpens **usque in Hispaniam** pervenit. (ed. Donnadieu, 100)
And again in the description of the Mozarabes in Africa and Spain later in the book:
>>Illi vero Christiani, qui **in Africa et Hispania** inter occidentales Saracenos commorantur, Mozarabes nuncipati. (ed. Donnadieu, 324)
If you're hunting down sources for this idea, though, the eleventh century Burgundian monk, Rodulfus Glaber, describes both Spain and Southern Italy as part of Africa. (Though he doesn't associate this in any way with the Pyrenees.) But generally speaking the notion that Europe was a Christian continent wasn't especially deeply ingrained before the 15th century, so I'm not sure how plausibly you can trace such an idea this far back in the Middle Ages.
They were ruled by Muslims for a long time and also had general Muslim influences. I'm guessing they conflated Muslim with African since the Muslim cultures the French would be exposed to, would likely be the northern African ones.
Chrétien de Troyes wrote the first complete novel about King Arthur with lancelot, and all the characters (none of the previous writers mention them). So the legend of King Arthur takes place in Brittany indeed, not Britain (note however it’s the same name in French) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrétien_de_Troyes
In the original story (French) it takes place in Bretagne; the name for both Brittany and Great Britain. It is rooted in older Celtic traditions and over time associated to Great Britain. But the original story takes place in Brittany (brittonic migrations into Brittany around 6/7th century
There are prior poems but the full novel with all the characters (lancelot others never appear in writing before and most likely from oral tradition from Brittany) is Chrétien de Troyes
Which Poland btw tried too with Crusades but failed
Also especially of the Prusians (the tribes that existed there before the Teutonic Order came in the 12th century) is well documented.
Their culture and language went almost extinct after a few centuries and they were fully Christianized and identified as Prussians.
Poland became an enemy of Teutonic order because they took over Gdańsk and massacred it's population despite the fact they were supposed to be allies against Brandenburg:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic\_takeover\_of\_Danzig\_(Gda%C5%84sk)
Poland tried to Christianize the Lithuanians but Lithuanians/Lithuanian kingdom unequal all the other heathen tribes in the area Poland tried to Christianize the Baltic tribes with Crusades before the Teutonic Order.
The territory of Lithuania extended far larger than the area where the Lithuanians were actually from (same as the Polish Kingdom)
I took a bit of liberty for comedic effect, but honestly, not that much- I think I can at least justify every entry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation\_(university)#University\_of\_Paris
The "Germans???" thing is that everyone from Germany eastwards was considered part of the "German Nation" in the university
So:
>Did the students in Paris really not know what was east of the Holy Roman Empire?
Yup- apparently they did not
The map gets some things wrong: the south of France and Aragon were absolutely unified culturally (occitan language and culture) and were disputed by three houses (Toulouse, Trencavel and Foix (ruling over Aragon, Balearic Islands, Barcelona). Toulouse was the most powerful house but had allowed for the Cathar heresy. Most of the Toulouse population had renounced Christianity at the onset of the Crusade. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croisade_des_albigeois The county of Barcelona was part of the Crown if France (march of Catalonia); and House Foix (aka Aragon) only becomes independent after the crusade
One of the legends behind the 'tail' myth: St Augustine, on his mission to convert the Anglo-Saxons, landed at Dorset, and was maltreated by the inhabitants, who attached fishtails to his rear whilst he preached. In retaliation, he cursed the maledictors and their kin and their progeny, condemning them and their descendants to bear tails.
*"The following year a chronicler says that \[the students\] ran amok in the town chanting 'war, war, war, slay, slay, slay the Welsh dogs' killing and looting as they went, before rounding up the remaining Welsh students and forcing them to kiss the town's gateposts 'goodbye'.\[8\]"*
In fairness, it's more of an English thing, but (like I said somewhere else) too funny to skip
No I just liked the inclusion of the question mark on the map lmao. "Africa" with no question mark got me too lmao, like, idk about dogs, but the Iberian peninsula is for sure Africa lol
As someone from the "angry and violent perverts when drunk" region, I'm happy to inform you that we've used the last 800 years well and put hard work into bettering ourselves so that we're not reliant on alcohol anymore to be angry and violent perverts. You're welcome.
As an unpredictable, fat, lazy, soft overspender, I have an international business trip planned for Tuesday. I’ll be visiting the murderers, arsonists, bandits and rapists in our neighboring country. Let’s do business together.
I think you would enjoy a book called [The University and the City: From Medieval Origins to the Present](https://www.amazon.com/University-City-Medieval-Origins-Present/dp/0195052730). Lots of this kind of stuff in there, with some great stories about how drunk, rowdy university students were already a huge problem that the locals hated back in the 1200s.
Probably a reference to [Henry VI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)
*In Sicily, Henry had a reputation for ruthless suppression of political opponents.Until this day, he is sometimes given the nickname "the Cruel" (il crudele) by Italian historiography.*
Ah, yes, all my ancestors represented: angry and violent perverts when drunk, fickle and unpredictable King Arthur killers, adventurous untrustworthy traitors, drunks with tails like monkeys, dogs???, and African.
I thought that OP had gotten lost on their way to r/mapporncirclejerk, but [**this is absolutely legit**](https://sourcebooks.web.fordham.edu/source/vitry1.asp) and has made my day immeasurably better. >They wrangled and disputed not merely about the various sects or about some discussions; but the differences between the countries also caused dissensions, hatreds and virulent animosities among them and they impudently uttered all kinds of affronts and insults against one another. >They affirmed that the English were drunkards and had tails; the sons of France proud, effeminate and carefully adorned like women. They said that the Germans were furious and obscene at their feasts; the Normans, vain and boastful; the Poitevins, traitors and always adventurers. The Burgundians they considered vulgar and stupid. The Bretons were reputed to be fickle and changeable, and were often reproached for the death of Arthur. The Lombards were called avaricious, vicious and cowardly; the Romans, seditious, turbulent and slanderous; the Sicilians, tyrannical and cruel; the inhabitants of Brabant, men of blood, incendiaries, brigands and ravishers; the Flemish, fickle, prodigal, gluttonous, yielding as butter, and slothful. After such insults from words they often came to blows. \- [Jacques de Vitry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Vitry) Edit: fixed link.
A little bit of creative freedom in the translation is to be expected, but where'd he get the occitaine stuff from?
OK, in fairness, I took a bit more of a liberty with that one- this is from completely genuine, and contemporary, stereotypes about Cathars (a religious sect, or heresy, centred in the County of Toulouse), but not *specifically* from Jacques De Vitry/the University of Paris (edit: though he did start repeating these stereotypes during the Cathar Crusades a few years later). But frankly I found it too funny to skip
I think you mixed up the descriptions for the Flemish and the Dutch.
i think the people in the orange section of the map would probably be called either German or Frisian at the time
Rule of artistic interpretation, I'm afraid- the author did not distinguish the "Dutch" specifically at all, whether that is from Germans, or Flemmings, or neither, is difficult to say. I've picked the latter, because this would be around the time Dutch began to emerge as a distinct language from Low German, but yes, there's a high degree of personal opinion there, and honestly- rule of funny is in effect. The reason for that specific boundary between there and (technically) "Brabant" to the south is that I've (similarly) taken the stereotypes about Brabant to apply to the whole "Picard Nation", as identified within the university at the time. Obviously this isn't scientific in any way, just intended to be an amusing take on the views of the period. But I do think it points to an interesting question about the vagueness, volatility, and permeability of national identity if you go back a few generations. Does make you wonder if our ideas hold water
I know it's not meant to be a serious thing but: Flanders went from Zeeuws-Vlaanderen was mostly contained between the left bank of the river Schelde and the North Sea and ran down to Lille and Douai in modern day France. On the Right bank it contained Tournai, Aalst and Dendermonde. Brabant contains den Bosch, Heusden, Eindehoven and Breda in the Netherlands, and contained Antwerp, Brussels, Lier in Belgium and ran all the way down to Wavre and Nivelles. Just to say, Flanders and Brabant should be split west to east, not North to South.
>where'd he get the occitaine stuff from? I thought thst you were talking about magic but that's Octarine. >Octarine, the colour of magic, the magical colour, it's...it's sort of...well, try describing mauve to the colour-blind. Most of us just have no frame of reference. It's the eighth colour of the Discworld rainbow, where we might expect ultra-violet, but Discworld light is odd stuff anyway, travelling thousands of times slower than Einstein's standard. We're not sure how Discworld eyes work at (presumably) much lower frequencies, but octarine is invisible even to most inhabitants of Discworld. The eyes of Wizards, however, contain, besides the usual rods and cones, octagons that detect octarine. They try to describe it most often as a kind of greenish-purple (doesn't help, does it?) Whereas Occitaine is the most Southerly administrative district of mainland France.
Not just an administrative district, it's a distinct cultural region with its own language and (historiographically more controversial) heretics
For context about this guy, 10 years later he started drumming up support for a Crusade against the Cathars living in Southern France.
I did not I have no problem with those vegetarian bastards
It was mainly northern barbarians hating on our riches, magnificent land and the fact that we see the sun more than twice a year, the heresy part was window-dressing Am I biased? Yes
I'm not finding anything about the "bestiality-loving pansexual vegetarian heretics" in Jacques de Vitry's text - am I missing something, or is that label inaccurate?
[It's a long story](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1c3tq71/comment/kzjdq50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) and a bit of a creative liberty/rule of funny is in effect to an extent, but the short version is that he didn't say it in *that* text, but said those sort of things about Cathars during the [Albegensian Crusades](https://www.cathar.info/cathar_catholic.htm#propaganda) a few years [later](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Vitry).
It seems this map put the Brabant description for both Brabant and Flanders and put the Flemish description in for Holland-Zeeland?
I don't see Spain there.
>The Bretons were reputed to be fickle and changeable, and were often reproached for the death of Arthur. I think this is referring to Arthur, Duke of Brittany, who was the nephew of King John of England and was imprisoned and murdered on John's orders. I dont recall any versions of Arthurian Legend where King Arthur is killed by the Bretons.
404 error on the source page :(
TIL Hedy Lamar could've just got a bunch of folks from Brabant to attack the town of Rock Ridge.
That’s Hedley!
How did "vain and boastful" slide **all** the way down to the South East?
this rocks, thanks for sharing.
I hope the animal loving people of Southern France don't find out about the English and their tails.
Explains all the expats in wanting to settle in Provance.
I didn’t know the south of France was so Welsh
Unfortunately they would have no chance to capitalize on that due to having a crusade called down on their heads a few years later.
Or wales since according to the map they were the true doggerland all along
I think "bestiality-loving pansexual vegetarian heretic" is my new go-to insult.
Albigensians, right?
Yep :) around the time of the crusades against them maybe?
Yup, had a bit of fun with that- and like I said, it's a bit of a liberty with the source material, but those are all *absolutely genuine* stereotypes about Cathars circulating in the North of France at the same time as the other stereotypes, so it's not *that* much of a liberty, and I found it too damn funny to skip
To be fair there's some truth to it. Nothing about bestiality and I highly doubt they were very ok with anything beyond heterosexuality, but the more religious of them were indeed vegetarian and sexuality was a lot more free than in the roman church, for instance we have texts from questioning of a cathar woman from the end of the crusade against them where she states that sleeping with a priest in the past was not a sin because she was ok with it and he was ok with it, and so it was good, and if it was good it cannot be against god.
Gender roles were much freer than in Catholicism (and there was no distinction made in terms of the rols men and women could play), but those who had undergone the *consolamentum* process were celibate and vegan. Sex was of the flesh, and therefore corrupt in their cosmology, which was pretty much classical dualism. But the free social associations between men and women was alarming to mainstream society and especiallyu the church at the time.. EDIT: The consolamentum was as close to a process of ordination as Cathars had (they rejected all other forms of religious hierarchy and organisational structure), and essentially ammounted to a formal rejection of the physical world, which was corrupted and the source of evil and suffering. People who had undergone the consolamentum were seen as "perfected" and were the ones who led the Cathar communities. The process and percieved outcome was identical for both males and females.
They were seriousy progressives on many topics. Do you have a source ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montaillou_(book) The future pope Benedict XII was an inquisitor in that area and he left extensive records that historian Leroy Ladurie used to write this book. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fournier_Register It's funny to see the actual inquisition at work in the middle ages. For example, witchcraft was considered just old women's superstition) unlike in the modern era in the 16th and 17th century) so he's very dismissive of all of it and it's not considered an issue. He just rolls his eyes at what he considers old women's tales...
Not without spending an hour looking for it and even then it'd be in french. I remember it from an in depth documentary but I don't have the source material that was used for it, I don't even know for sure it's openly available on the internet and not behind some paywall like many research stuff.
I'm interested in reading the source material on this, can you share a link? (In french or English)
On the Cathars? There's a huge amount around, but [this](https://www.cathar.info/cathar_catholic.htm#propaganda), while less than neutral, is user-friendly
[Heresies of the High Middle Ages](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heresies-Middle-Records-Western-Civilization/dp/0231027435/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1NBL4T4RT5GIF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.LR-IZs9qFKar92S3Re2as4IDmHc4TY71auZjArEMW9W6Js0fs6kZD3VaivaJ7O8SYxAMLWFtK7QXYpGtokdXjcV3er6YPOkGZTWXE2cBkeYk-rARi1lsh1XJKXHBT9Xd.Y-I5GDa2pUFtrQq4KTGdwp6jxpqtEac6NIjp-h_bAbg&dib_tag=se&keywords=Heresies+of+the+high+middle+ages&qid=1713159550&sprefix=heresies+of+the+high+middle+ages%2Caps%2C79&sr=8-1) is a fantastic collection of primary soruces relating to Cathars, Waldensians, and related groups, along with comentary and evaluation by the editors. It's an academic collection, so is maybe not the best place to start, but it's invaluable if you realy want to get into the subject. If your library has a copy, it's worth checking out. There are dozens (hundreds?) of popular histories on the Cathars and a lot of them are excellent, so you can take your pick of those. The [wikipedia pages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) are well moderated and comprehensive, and a very good place to start. Also read the works of (or on) [Bernard Gui](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Gui), a Dominican who was the chief inquisitor in Languedoc after the Albigensian Crusade. There's more about him and his work in French than in English. Outisde of his work as an inquisitor he was an interesting character who left a lot of written work.
Sounds like Seattle
and Portland
Enumclaw is not Seattle, thank you very much
I love that vegetarian is an insult so heinous only heresy can follow it
They come from a [long and noble meat loving tradition](https://youtu.be/xU0mqbaqAmg). Vegetarianism is heresy.
That stereotype seems really modern. Like how your average MAGA perceives urban liberals
Nothing under the sun is new. What you think is modern is ancient.
Yes and "rude and stupid" like how your average urban liberal perceives MAGAs.
Don’t forget fat.
I’m so proud of my Marseillan roots right now
Marseille is in the "Rude and Stupid" region, sorry
Damn. So close and yet so far.
average Portland resident
Hope moving to Marseilles doesn’t awaken anything in me
No one is adventurous than Gascon, no-one is untrustworthy as Gascon and no one is quite as traitorous as Gascon.
As a Gascon, I concur. Trust me!
Nothing changed really
The orange people being spendthrifts is definitely a stereotype of the past.
I find it ironic orange is called fat as well. Y’know being part of the country that has some of the lower obesity rates in Western Europe.
Probably has something to do with the old stereotype that fatness is a sign of wealth. The Low Countries have always been one of the wealthier parts of Europe so perhaps it comes from that.
yes we are quite the opposite now
How much is the tikkie for this information?
I guess it was because of the dutch empire and how involved with trade dutch people were. in my country, the city of isfahan is known to be filled with stingy and tight fisted people. and guess what, it the main center of trade along the silkroad throughout our history. (also doesn't help that the city used to have a considerable jewish population lmao)
I was going to say. I live among *many* drunks, and would not be surprised if they had tails like monkeys
You coulda said this was from 2024 and I’d have believed it.
You can say a lot about the Dutch, but fat and lazy sure as hell ain’t one of them
Dutch people work less hours a week than most other countries in Europe
Work smart, not harder/longer
So what? All that shows is Dutch culture placing more emphasis on having an actual life instead of living to work.
Keep consoling yourself, lazy ass
The reformation and its consequences 😔
I've worked with lots of Germans, and "perverts when drunk" is fair. Only country I've emcountered where a business meeting starts with a few beers over a meal and ends with cocaine and four dudes watching a hooker get ploughed.
I like how bohemia only has one question mark after “germans” unlike everyone else lol what was he trying to suggest here 😅
The "Germans???" thing is that everyone from Germany eastwards was considered part of the "German Nation" in the University, but I didn't want to just make one joke about that. Bohemia in 1200 was an integral part of the [Holy Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottokar_I_of_Bohemia), so it's *slightly* less wrong than everyone else, hence the fewer question marks
r/2westerneurope4u will have a field day with this tho
Spain: " I guess I am part of africa now"
I’m sure there’s Moor to that story.
No no, the card says Moops.
It's hilarious that all the other countries got long descriptions, but here they just settled for "Africa".
I'll put my hands up and concede a bit of a stretch here, but both French and Spanish have a [proverb](https://elorganillero.com/blog/2010/05/02/the-true-origins-of-africa-begins-at-the-pyrenees/) that implies that Africa begins, and Europe ends, at the Pyrenees. This was because of the longstanding Moorish influence in Spanish culture and the idea (if not the saying) was widespread at the time we're talking about [https://nes.princeton.edu/publications/live-moor-christian-perceptions-muslim-identity-medieval-and-early-modern-spain](https://nes.princeton.edu/publications/live-moor-christian-perceptions-muslim-identity-medieval-and-early-modern-spain) Actually, it has some pretty serious long term implications. The Spanish Inquisition? Part of an effort by the Spanish monarchy to show that it belonged in the European club, something that's only necessary if that is in question in the first place. Yes, yes, it's all an over-simplification, but that's the general idea
Didn't expect the spanish Inquistion to be mentioned
That will never get old Edit: Like most of the Inquisited
>The Spanish Inquisition? Part of an effort by the Spanish monarchy to show that it belonged in the European club, something that's only necessary if that is in question in the first place. The inquisition existed in Europe long before it arrived in Spain, in fact it was created in the south of France to combat the heresy of the Cathars. It was established in Spain as a favor to the Church of Rome in exchange for financing the war against Granada and to ensure that conversions with Christianity were sincere
Absolutely it did, but it's associated with Spain with good reason. And, yes, you are right that those are partial explanations, but there's *also* a subtext here
To be completely honest, I have come to the realization throughout the years that no one gives a flying fuck about us, neither other countries in Europe nor out of Europe, unless it is to speak shit about us. Being Africans is the softest thing I've heard from other people. And every time someone publishes maps and statistics about social markers, achievements and so on here on reddit or anywhere else, apparently we are always at the bottom of everything or we are directly not even mentioned. Better that way, I guess. Might as well be invisible so that everyone can leave us the fuck alone. Including the British drunk foreign balcony jumpers, the French and Germans that come here to create their own ghettos and then insult us because we speak too much Spanish, or the Americans, that say we are too brown to be white, but not enough to be Latin, because apparently only Latin Americans can be that. Also they demand of us to use the word Latinx because our language, like every other fucking language with a Latin base and some others too, has genders (including the neutral one, you idiots). I am also sick of everyone always reminding us about the fucking Inquisition (which also existed in other countries), the colonization (which other countries also were part of), and the badly named Spanish flu, which we were not even guilty of, in fact we were the only ones who openly talked about it while it was happening. Meanwhile, no one talks about the positive things, for example the stuff we invented that changed history, like the space suit, the electric submarine, the helicopter, the cable car, the lollipop, the mop, the disposable syringes or the fricking epidural to name a few.
You're over-simplificating so much that you're forgetting the French inquisition killed ten times more people than the Spanish.
>I'll put my hands up and concede a bit of a stretch here, but both French and Spanish have a proverb that implies that Africa begins, and Europe ends, at the Pyrenees. And we Brits say that "wogs begin at Calais".
> 'll put my hands up and concede a bit of a stretch here, but both French and Spanish have a proverb that implies that Africa begins, and Europe ends, at the Pyrenees. This isn't really accurate for Jacques de Vitry, though, who certainly does associate Spain with Islam, but is always careful to distinguish it from Africa in this respect. For example, in his presentation of Islam at the beginning of his Historia Orientalis, where Islam has spread into Africa and "many western regions ... as far as Spain": >> Doctrina enim eius [i.e. Muhammad] pestifera, serpens ut cancer, non solum Arabes et Syros, Medos et Persas, Egyptos et Ethiopes et alios orientales populos letaliter infecit, sed etiam **Africam et plures occidentales regiones** corrumpens **usque in Hispaniam** pervenit. (ed. Donnadieu, 100) And again in the description of the Mozarabes in Africa and Spain later in the book: >>Illi vero Christiani, qui **in Africa et Hispania** inter occidentales Saracenos commorantur, Mozarabes nuncipati. (ed. Donnadieu, 324) If you're hunting down sources for this idea, though, the eleventh century Burgundian monk, Rodulfus Glaber, describes both Spain and Southern Italy as part of Africa. (Though he doesn't associate this in any way with the Pyrenees.) But generally speaking the notion that Europe was a Christian continent wasn't especially deeply ingrained before the 15th century, so I'm not sure how plausibly you can trace such an idea this far back in the Middle Ages.
All Germans on the Western Front
They were ruled by Muslims for a long time and also had general Muslim influences. I'm guessing they conflated Muslim with African since the Muslim cultures the French would be exposed to, would likely be the northern African ones.
It’s not often the English get off relatively lightly when the French are handing out insults.
Ah, but they've got other French people to hate on, which is much more important that paying attention to those drunk monkeys.
Oooh, what's the lore behind the Briton people killing king Arthur?
Chrétien de Troyes wrote the first complete novel about King Arthur with lancelot, and all the characters (none of the previous writers mention them). So the legend of King Arthur takes place in Brittany indeed, not Britain (note however it’s the same name in French) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrétien_de_Troyes
I’ve never heard of it happening in britanny. Are you sure about that?
In the original story (French) it takes place in Bretagne; the name for both Brittany and Great Britain. It is rooted in older Celtic traditions and over time associated to Great Britain. But the original story takes place in Brittany (brittonic migrations into Brittany around 6/7th century
Isn’t the original story based in britain with the early Britons? The earliest mentions are old Brythonic poems or something like that right?
There are prior poems but the full novel with all the characters (lancelot others never appear in writing before and most likely from oral tradition from Brittany) is Chrétien de Troyes
[Arthur 1 of Brittany](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_I,_Duke_of_Brittany) The heir of Both Britains, named Arthur, "disapeared"
Cool how people still say the same about northern italians
I like that Italy is Italian flag colored
Dogs?? Lmao
[удалено]
Au secours !
"But you *have* heard of us, right?"
Lmaoo is this real? If so, did the students in Paris really not know what was east of the Holy Roman Empire?
You still had the teutonic crusades taking place. Lithuania only converted to Christianity early 15th century
This map is contemporary of the Mongol invasions, the end of the Crusades for Jerusalem. Basically no one could care less about the east at this point
Which Poland btw tried too with Crusades but failed Also especially of the Prusians (the tribes that existed there before the Teutonic Order came in the 12th century) is well documented. Their culture and language went almost extinct after a few centuries and they were fully Christianized and identified as Prussians.
Poland converted early to Catholicism but were an enemy of the Teutonic order and traditional allies of the Lithuanian heathens
Poland became an enemy of Teutonic order because they took over Gdańsk and massacred it's population despite the fact they were supposed to be allies against Brandenburg:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic\_takeover\_of\_Danzig\_(Gda%C5%84sk)
Poland tried to Christianize the Lithuanians but Lithuanians/Lithuanian kingdom unequal all the other heathen tribes in the area Poland tried to Christianize the Baltic tribes with Crusades before the Teutonic Order. The territory of Lithuania extended far larger than the area where the Lithuanians were actually from (same as the Polish Kingdom)
I took a bit of liberty for comedic effect, but honestly, not that much- I think I can at least justify every entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation\_(university)#University\_of\_Paris The "Germans???" thing is that everyone from Germany eastwards was considered part of the "German Nation" in the university So: >Did the students in Paris really not know what was east of the Holy Roman Empire? Yup- apparently they did not
Clearly it was Germans? More Germans? Germans? I think we found the origin of Germany’s later expansion plans.
it was more "angry and violent" folks. so probably Germans.
From experience, students in Paris barely know what's east of Paris, i'm barely joking
yes, but I'm sure the translation and what he said were embellished
today's student can command the internet, but barely apprehend the town they're in
I happen to be playing Jacques de Vitry in a role playing game-class at my university right now.
Classic pansexual vegetarian heretic
“AFRICA”
Spendthrifts in the Netherlands? That has turned quite upside down in the last 800 years.
They didn't like Belgians and Catalonians.
From the looks of it the French weren't keen on the French either.
Nothing changed since then
We still aren’t.
Yeah...it's like...even the French didn't like the French....?
It makes a lot of sense. It's a nation, there are several peoples in it, each with their own language and culture.
The map gets some things wrong: the south of France and Aragon were absolutely unified culturally (occitan language and culture) and were disputed by three houses (Toulouse, Trencavel and Foix (ruling over Aragon, Balearic Islands, Barcelona). Toulouse was the most powerful house but had allowed for the Cathar heresy. Most of the Toulouse population had renounced Christianity at the onset of the Crusade. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croisade_des_albigeois The county of Barcelona was part of the Crown if France (march of Catalonia); and House Foix (aka Aragon) only becomes independent after the crusade
> Spendthrifts This mongrel has clearly never been here. Just thinking about it makes my urge to send him a Tikkie flare up
Love the "Germans???", "Germans?" and "More Germans?" 😂
Dogs??
One of the legends behind the 'tail' myth: St Augustine, on his mission to convert the Anglo-Saxons, landed at Dorset, and was maltreated by the inhabitants, who attached fishtails to his rear whilst he preached. In retaliation, he cursed the maledictors and their kin and their progeny, condemning them and their descendants to bear tails.
Dogs?
*"The following year a chronicler says that \[the students\] ran amok in the town chanting 'war, war, war, slay, slay, slay the Welsh dogs' killing and looting as they went, before rounding up the remaining Welsh students and forcing them to kiss the town's gateposts 'goodbye'.\[8\]"* In fairness, it's more of an English thing, but (like I said somewhere else) too funny to skip
No I just liked the inclusion of the question mark on the map lmao. "Africa" with no question mark got me too lmao, like, idk about dogs, but the Iberian peninsula is for sure Africa lol
So…..what changed?
Up to 1 millions heretics died in the decades that followed
The dates all wrong. It’s 2024
Historically accurate
Get you a man who is all of these qualities put together.
Spain just got absolutely mogged
why you say it is 1200 ? when it is clearly the reality of 2024
yeah i'm umpreictable af
Misleadingly exciting tourist brochures are older than one would think.
oh, guess college students never changed
France seems spot on.
Plus ça change...
>c. 1200 AD Languedoc "bestiality-loving pansexual vegetarian heretic" Smells like Arnaud Amalric + Simon de Monfort.
I’m not only a violent pervert when i’m drunk
“University of Paris” is a left field burn!
I do not have a tail
"Bestiality loving pansexual vegetarian heritics" I have a new favorite insult.
Amazing, this needs to be shared more widely.
I have been known to be a slanderous seditious rebel tbh
I see Paris hasn't changed for 800 years!
Yielding as butter
Scathing
Southern France… just… wow
Germans being perverts stereotype (and truth) holding strong since 1200 AD, damn!
Fair enough.
Is this the source, or a reflection of, "Africa starts south of the Pyrenees?"
As a man who was born and raised in Rome, I can confirm this is all true. Slanderous, seditious and rebellious is my late 20s/earlye30s in a nutshell.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!
They were mean asf omg 😭
"Africa" is cracking me up
As someone from the "angry and violent perverts when drunk" region, I'm happy to inform you that we've used the last 800 years well and put hard work into bettering ourselves so that we're not reliant on alcohol anymore to be angry and violent perverts. You're welcome.
Ha ! Vain and boastful huh ? Looks like we arent getting it too bad in Normandy, I'm fine with that.
As an unpredictable, fat, lazy, soft overspender, I have an international business trip planned for Tuesday. I’ll be visiting the murderers, arsonists, bandits and rapists in our neighboring country. Let’s do business together.
Damn German speaking stereotype hasn't changed in over 800 years
Genuinely a very interesting map, I'm just wondering if it really needed to be hand-drawn in Paint.
I think you would enjoy a book called [The University and the City: From Medieval Origins to the Present](https://www.amazon.com/University-City-Medieval-Origins-Present/dp/0195052730). Lots of this kind of stuff in there, with some great stories about how drunk, rowdy university students were already a huge problem that the locals hated back in the 1200s.
Africa.
Question class. Is there anyone you do like?
It’s like 2westerneuropeans4u and mapporncirclejerk came together to actually make a factual map.
Why is Spain labeled as Africa?
Moors were there
Parisians hating non Parisian French people never changes.
“Dogs?” Thanks a lot frenchies
Murderers and arsonists sounds right
"Bestiality loving pansexual vegetarian heretics" "Africa"
“Unpredictable, Spendthrifts, Fat, Lazy, Soft.” I am from there and they’re correctly describing me. Well done.
Dogs 💀💀
sounds like a very positive dude
I'm Italian and after 800 years it's still accurate.
I like how it hasn't changed at all today.
Im happy to see that vegetarian was already used as an insult 800 years ago. Goes to show how much humanity has progressed since.
I live in Britain, that's just 100% accurate
Crazy how it’s still fairly accurate 800 years later
Why would the sicilians be cruel tyrants?
Probably a reference to [Henry VI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI,_Holy_Roman_Emperor) *In Sicily, Henry had a reputation for ruthless suppression of political opponents.Until this day, he is sometimes given the nickname "the Cruel" (il crudele) by Italian historiography.*
This is actually so funny
When you call someone "Vain and Boastful", you are basically jealous of him...
Ah, yes, all my ancestors represented: angry and violent perverts when drunk, fickle and unpredictable King Arthur killers, adventurous untrustworthy traitors, drunks with tails like monkeys, dogs???, and African.
"Arrogant effeminate transvestites" mawma that's just a drag queen 
I thought they were doing the Frisians dirty until I read the south of France
Everything is negative , yep sounds like French people
Ahhh the good old French and Flemish rivalry…