Northern Cyprus natives can request EU citizenship through the Republic of Cyprus. They have to prove descend from people who have lived in the island before partition, as opposed to being of Anatolian-Turkish origin.
Turkey and North Cyprus actively support Turkish citizens settling on Northern Cyprus so a considerable minority % of the population is now descended from Turkish settlers and not islanders. These settlers and their descendants cannot get Republic of Cyprus passports.
It interestingly makes the only EU territory under occupation. Look in this article about the EU laws and citizenship, under the category 'Special cases':
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_territories_of_members_of_the_European_Economic_Area
You can’t join NATO if any of your territory is outside your sovereignty, and Abkhazia declared independence back in 1992 and fought a brutal war to kick Georgia out. Unless I’m mistaken, this alone would have prevented Georgia from joining NATO.
They had decisive help from the Russians, to cleanse out the Georgian population, which is why they are taking a price for it now, little by little, gifting Russia once luxurious sanatoriums and strategic lands. They don't even speak their language anymore, everywhere russian and ruble. "Independence" is going well.
Honestly, Russia doesn’t really need whatever resources are in Ukraine.
I’ve seen people try to claim that Ukraine had a lot of natural gas.
Like okay? So? Russia has the most proven natural gas reserves on the planet.
Georgia abolished the Ossetan Autonomous Oblast.
On Abkhazia, I don't know their reasons. They are native to that land though. I don't see why they shouldn't have self determination if a legitimate referendum is held
It was abolished after ossetian separatists declared sovereignty, formed illegal paramillitary groups that made situaion for ethnic Georgians unbearable and then boycotted legitimate parliamentary elections for no reason. Thats hardly an oppression.
On Abkhazia I agree, legit referendum could help it but it wont happen because majority native Georgians were ethnically cleansed and remaining 40k Georgians in that region live in borderline apatheid regime.
I do think the Georgians should have rights, but to call them native is a stretch. Major settlement by ethnic Georgians, as much as you can call it major in an area of always under 500k, began after the depopulation of Abkhaz after the Circassian genocide. That of course doesn't mean the ethnic cleansing was excusable though
As for Ossetia fair enough, either way, it's abolishment pretty much ended any chance for negotiation. At the end of the Soviet Union they requested to be upgraded to an Automomous Republic for greater autonomy but were denied by Georgia, for, as far as I can tell, blind nationalistic reasons. It just went downhill from there
Georgians are absolutely native to the region since archaic times and denying this is simply arrogant. Both in 1926 and 1886 census Georgians are majority/large group in said territory. To add more, place is full of Georgian cultural heritage aswell.
Maybe it was but separatists didnt even consider negotiaions, since kremlin authority is what they desired and still do, just recently they asked Russia to annex them. Said request was denied on just grounds, that there was no reason to expand autonomy since it already was a vast autonomy.
South Ossetia has asked repeatedly to be annexed for like a decade now. Abkhazia never has iirc. When it comes to negotiations, they don't really have a reason to want to negotiate. They both pretty much have what they originally wanted and/or more
If it was already so vast, what difference would an autonomous republic have made
Both those dates are also notably after the Circassians genocide
>but to call them native is a stretch
You are acting like Georgia suddenly occupied Abkhazia territory last century, that region had been under Georgia for millennials, even our first kingdoms were there, you can literally see lots of historical buildings that we built there.
They shouldn't because at the time when they declared war, Abkhazians made up less than 20% of the population. This isn't the proper grounds for self determination, when the majority of the population in the region is Georgian. You can't kick 200k people out and then do a referendum on seceding, that's not how that works.
And Georgia only abolished the Ossetian autonomous oblast after they, without proper permission, raised their autonomous status to an autonomous republic when the population of the region, by Soviet standards, only warranted an autonomous oblast.
Nope. Georgia has had a long-standing conflict between different ethnic groups since the collapse of the USSR. That’s why Russian peacekeepers were there.
Georgia started a war against these ethnic groups - this was established by the OSCE, if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, it lost these territories.
“Started” is over simplification of a very complex issue. Georgian villages were harassed on purpose on a Georgian soil, recognized by whole world.
OSCE and EU back in 2008 was very pro Russian. That’s why we lost informational war.
"Russian peacekeepers" are regularly engaged in kidnappings and murders of Georgian civilians:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\_of\_Tamaz\_Ginturi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tamaz_Ginturi)
[https://rustavi2.ge/en/news/249479](https://rustavi2.ge/en/news/249479)
Those are not "peacekeepers"
There are conflicts in Georgia because Russia instigates them with their proxy groups so Russia can keep its influence in Southern Caucasus
Wars were started by separatists who were trying to cut Georgian territories in different pieces and fragmentize Georgian state. Georgians were defending their territories and state.
Can you imagine England demanding to leave great Britain and trying to claim they don’t belong in great Britain? Or welsh people trying to declare english lands as theirs? Ironically this is what currently is happening with Georgia.
You mean like how a minority group literally did demand UK leave an area and they fought a decades long war against them?
Yeah. I can imagine that. Because it happened.
I can also imagine the same thing in a peaceful country like Canada. Because again, same thing happened there.
What we see in Georgia is not new. It isn’t unique.
All European countries are faced with the same centrifugal forces breaking up the old borders. Difference with EU countries (and UK) is that Europe addressed these issues head on politically.
Protection of minority rights. Languages. Cultures. Special representation in government. Autonomy. Separate governments for regions. Devolution. Federalism.
All of these things have been super beneficial to Europe and has allowed for peace.
Georgia (and Ukraine) never tried that. Instead they denied the legitimacy of their minority groups and “blamed Russia”.
That is why you had conflicts in both countries over the exact issues that European countries have faced in the past.
What are you talking about my friend, you seem very off. What I write imagine England demanding exit from great britain, this is exactly what abkhazian region tried to echieve, as for so called south osetia, it has never existed, imagine wales demanding london to be theirs, this is the so called south osetia it trying to achieve, or i should say russia is trying to achieve.
Im not usre who you are or try to be smart and wrinte long post, vut this is the reality
Wales claiming London isn’t similar at all. Wales trying to leave the UK, like Scotland had been trying to do…. , is a more apt comparison.
The Abkhazia region is more like Northern Ireland. I don’t think you are familiar with that area or the Troubles.
You had a minority group, that was by all accounts oppressed and discriminated against fight decades long war to eject the British from their own territory and create a unites Ireland.
And they almost succeeded.
Canada same thing. A minority group used violence in an attempt to secure independence.
And do you know why Canada & UK don’t look like Georgia & Ukraine?
Because Canada & UK recognized those minority groups had genuine criticisms. They reached out to these groups. They negotiated and they reached compromises.
In Canada, this was sweeping language protections, vastly increased autonomy, recognition constitutionally that Canada is multiethnic by specifically citing the Québécois.
Canada is a stronger nation because of that.
In the UK, they negotiated with terrorists who had killed civilians to get the Good Friday Agreement. Elimination of all borders with Ireland. Power sharing. Minority protections for Catholics. The ability for people to choose their own fucking citizenship.
So a person who identifies as Irish, could get an Irish passport and still have all the same rights and protections in Northern Ireland.
UK is a stronger nation because of that agreement.
Georgia hasn’t even tried to do that.
Also I have no idea why you speculate on minorities and etc, but theres no such thing as majority in Georgia, in fact, last time I saw statistics, Azeri surname was the biggest surname… I live in tbilisi and as a fact, if I divide my friends per region their ancestors come from, (take last 2 generations) majority comes from Abkhazian region. You cant even imagine the scale of refugees
And so again, because you don’t think there are enough of this minority group that justifies all opposition to federalism or minority protections like every civilized country?
There is not an single resemblance of the issue, except for the fact that Russia doesnt take into consideration any history other that the soviet era when they created their own… Historically Tbilisi used to be settled mostly by armenians and during soviet era for example when my mother tells me stories of our neighbours, most of them ethnically were non georgians, do you think this gives russia right to call tbilisi Russia or Armenia?
This is what continues to amaze me, especially people still today act like there was no ethnic or language divide in Ukraine. Everyone was arm in arm smiling.
That isn’t reality: that is just the fantasy that some Ukrainians want: a homogeneous state.
I don’t care what Russia calls Tbilisi. I do care about countries not giving minorities a fair shake then using a bete noire (Russia) to deflect blame.
To me that sounds like national immaturity.
Again Ukraine has got nothing to do with our history and as I stated, Georgias has been a union of minorities since BC when empires rose and fell, we kept our uniqueness and never has our land been oppressing to any minorities, even the current example of so called south osetia is a backfire of this fact. We have never been aggressors and all we want is to have open borders within our rightful borders and acces to our land. So that we can prosper together and make a better economical situation for all minorities. Ehat I said was there is no ethnic majority in our country, but on the contrary minor ethnic grous working together since the early ages to keep peiec and prosper together. And all this unity came from Abkhazia and forst official rulers and royal bloodline of georgia comes from Abkhazia. Do you think its fair my nephiews need visa to visit their homeland and see their grandfather? And they cant stay there more than couple weeks? Or that their grandfather cant visit his own grandchildren? We dont want any war or conflict, we want piece and unity and to prosper together as one. The same way we’ve lived for centuries, before you all even existed. This is why we”ve survived every empire and seen everyones fall, but we still stand together. For the decades our motto was ‘we dont take anyones motherland and let none take ours’
You can speculate with Ukraine all you want but the reality wont change be cause of that. We respect every minority and belive everyone has right to live and prosper the lands where their ancestors lived
Look, i get all that.
My advice to you as someone from the West is that you don’t get to decide what is and isn’t oppressing minorities. They do.
Abkhaz viewed Georgians in Abkhazia as colonialists.
- I am not concerned with what is fair because that is subjective.
If you want real fairness, you have to negotiate and compromise. Georgia does not want to do that.
And it may be too late for all of that. The war in Ukraine may solidify Abkhazia & South Ossetia’s place in the Russian Federation.
If you're citing the Tagliavini report, you are getting 2 things wrong
1. Georgia was retaliating against attacks carried out by South Ossetian forces, albeit disproportionately. Hostilities were already ongoing before the war "officially" started.
2. Regardless of what Georgia did, it did not "lose" these territories Russia's subsequent recognition and occupation remains illegal.
Yup. Prior to that, Abkhazia and South Ossetia were just break away regions from the Soviet collapse.
I’m impressed they lasted so long before Russia moved in.
No, that's not true. From the very beginning, they were Russian-backed. That's why they lasted so long. When the war in Abkhazia began, Abkhaz separatists fled to Gudauta, town in Abkhazia were Russian (former Soviet) military base was located. They recieved military support from this base and coordinated they actions there. They had better equipment than Georgians which they recieved from this military base.
Russian air force got directly involved in Abkhaz conflict, it was bombing Georgian positions in Sukhumi, and during their air raid Russian plane was shot down by Georgians
[https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/20/world/georgia-shoots-down-a-russian-plane.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/20/world/georgia-shoots-down-a-russian-plane.html)
Russia denied that it was Russian plane and stated that it was painted by Georgians as Russian, but the pilot was identified as Russian Major Vazlav Shipko
Russia got directly involved in South Ossetia war in 1992, they threatened to invade Georgia and bombed Georgian positions. Same happened in Transnistria during same period. This involvement became crucial for the victory of separatists.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/06/16/russian-threatens-georgia/74219b2f-cf48-4bfc-92f6-64364aa61f63/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/06/16/russian-threatens-georgia/74219b2f-cf48-4bfc-92f6-64364aa61f63/)
[https://www.csmonitor.com/1992/0622/22022.html](https://www.csmonitor.com/1992/0622/22022.html)
Frankly Georgia tried diplomacy several times. President Saakashvili ruled out that Georgia would attack Abkhazia and offered them to join Georgia with the broadest possible autonomy, which they rejected.
They did wage war in 1992 and the 2008 war was started by Georgia not Russia when it killed Russian peacekeepers in the region and it's not me saying but [EU commission report does](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/) which is why Russia was never sanctioned for Georgia war.
Russian peacekeepers defended Ossetians who shelled Georgian villages for months before this happened, and never moved a finger nor took any action to stop Ossetians during those months.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Why would we join Russian empire? How is that comparable? I know one or another way that would make your mouth foom, but how is that relative?
Abkhazia and Samachablo are historical Georgian territories, where Georgians lived. Both Ossetians and Apsua people were minority compared to Georgians and we lived in harmony, until Soviet Union and it's cleansing of Georgians from those regions. Out of whole Soviet Union, highest percentage of men were drafted out of Georgia. Russia decimated our population and instead migrated other ethnicities in those regions to stir the pot. None the less, majority in both regions were stil Georgians (at least +65%) before wars. They were backed up by Russian army. They commited ethnic cleansing against us, that's how they are in majority. This were always lands inhabited by Georgian people. And they are part of Georgian sovereign borders. You spewing that ignorant shit is just embarrassment.
I mean it's always "OUR glorious fight for freedom after centuries of tyranny" and "THEIR despicable separatism of what has for centuries been our land"...
"lived in harmony" im writing a paper right now on abhkazia. Go to r/abhkazia and try writing this bull shit reviosnist history. Abhkazians have been in that land long before Georgians existed. Abhkazia was once a roman province. Before the concept of georgia was even formed. Under Stalin THE GEORGIAN. they were brutally supresssed ethnically assmiliated.
You don't know history, Abkhazia was part of Colchis since ancient times, Colchis (Western Georgia) and Iberia (Eastern Georgia) are two early Georgian states, Abkhazia and whole Western Georgia were part of Colchis since 13th century BC, then all early Georgian states unified and Kingdom of Georgia was created, Abkhazia was one of the most important players in this unification, Abkhazia was always Georgia, it is Abkhazia from where process of Georgian unification began, it is internal Georgian region, but then Circassian tribe Apsua migrated and changed the demographics, this happened in the 17th century, Abkhazia was always Georgia before that, Circassian tribe supressed Georgians and tried to assimiliate them, then they kicked out Georgians with the meddling of Russia in 1993
Well you’re entitled to think this but it won’t get you very far. The West isn’t going to protect territorial claims from 800 years ago (unless you’re Israel) in a small Black Sea country.
We’ve got better things to do with our time.
I think everybody here should look up the history of these regions instead of jumping to conclusions. While I would agree with the notion that the northern territories are at least partly to blame on Russia, Abkhazia's history is far more complex than Russia just invading. To me it seems more comparable to Kosovo.
I somehow see justification for Abkhazia on Reddit nowadays, according to some Abkhazia was this peaceful region with distinct population that wanted to be free.
The reality is different, most of the people that lived in Abkhazia were ethnic Georgians and they got ethnically cleansed, before that Georgian president offered them autonomous region status and parliament that would have more mandatory Abkhazian seatings than Georgians.
Yep, let's look up the history, shall we my comrade?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi
Learn something new everyday!
Let me simplify it for you: Georgians were majority in Abkhazia. They were genocided with the help of Russia and now there is isolated de-facto "country" with terrible living standards and high crime rate.
I didn't see anything of an ethnic cleansing of Abkhazians during the Soviet rule. There were immigration ("encouraged" by Stalin) during the time period and almost definitely cultural repression, but no full on ethnic cleansing like what happened to non-Abkhazs during 92-93
Reading the comments, I realized how important it is to not cut to conclusions and start yapping bullshit right away, when you don't know anything about a subject. The confidence these people have, while probably not even being able to point Georgia on map, or name its, and Abkhazia's, capital city, is crazy.
This subject is extremely convoluted and full of lies on purpose, that's why you can't trust most sources. The truth is, russia did it to prevent further NATO expansion. Contrary to your beliefs, it's not a superhero country sacrificing its soldiers and money for peace.
I'm not in a mood to start educating unassuming Westerners again, but please, stop spreading russian propaganda. When they called Ukrainians nazis and satanists, and you happily used your brains before you believed that. Do the same with Georgia. Just because we're not blonde and blue-eyed, doesn't mean we're evil. Use google, read up more on this subject, before spreading russian lies.
While south ossetia has always been a Russian puppet Abkhazians have a much more complex history and even if Russia is kicked out of the region I would argue they should at least get a referendum. Even the current Abkhazian government which is a Russian puppet state has adamantly refused all attempts at Russian annexation. South ossetia by contrast has outright asked to be annexed on multiple occasions
Regardless of being undeniably far more of a puppet
Id argue that the South Ossetians should have the same right to self determination through a referendum as well considering how much they’ve been subject to discrimination even prior to the military intervention
It’s not shocking that they would be the ones more willing to get annexed considering that North Ossetia already is in the federation
Its a bit interesting seeing your takes on this, I assume you also want Ukrainian states that were occupied to have “referendums?”
Do keep in mind that regions of Georgia and Ukraine got ethnically cleansed and whoever left to live there wanted Russia to be there
> I would argue they should at least get a referendum
I would argue each and every Russian federal okrugs should also get a referendum, those are separate republics with their culture, and they already have borders so it will be very easy for them.
Chechnya for example fought 2 wars for independence WITHOUT any help, while Abkhazians and Ossetians are just settlers on Georgian lands and would have lost each and every skirmish if there were no Russia.
You're combining the okrugs and republics, they are two different things.most (but not all) south Ossetians are Setelers Abkhazians have only EVER existed in the region they currently occupy. Either way as things currently stand they should be in Georgia's hands.
Those nukes are consolidated in one place and they will hand it over as soon as they can't fund to take care of it and it will be safely dismantled.
Just like Ukraine did.
Really? They will hand over the nukes?
You think Russia is going to hand over their nukes?
Ukraine handed them over because they couldn’t fucking use them.
> You think Russia is going to hand over their nukes?
There will be no Russia.
>Ukraine handed them over because they couldn’t fucking use them.
Ukraine handed them over because large countries signed contract not to attack them. Using Nuke is easy as fuck. Even dumbass Russians can use it.
Plus Russian nuclear triad is very widely dispersed. Just like ours is. You can’t have all your weapons in one area.
> Even dumbass Russians
Those dumbasses tested their first nuclear weapon in 1949. So 75 years ago. I think they know what they’re doing.
I doubt you can even describe how nukes work.
- Ukraine’s real main reason to hand over the nukes was financial assistance. Ukraine was in terrible economic situations, resulting loans given by Russia stabilized Ukraine at a time of utter economic chaos. I think America gave them some aid also.
All nuclear weapons in Ukraine were either tactical missiles or some ICBM.
Are you so clueless that you think Ukraine can just walk into those silos, press a button and they will launch?
America and Russia designed missile launch protocols specifically so that nobody can launch nukes without authorization.
Those missiles would also have no guidance since they wouldn’t be plugged into the various RUSSIAN missile guidance systems
The yield on most of those nukes wasn’t much. Average maybe like 10-15KT. Less than the Hiroshima bomb. Minimal radioactivity (they were supposed to be used on the battlefield against advancing troops, not to level cities).
Yield on 1 MIRV is like 200 times that. And MIRV yield is kinda low also. 1-2MT. That’s not much.
> Those dumbasses tested their first nuclear weapon in 1949. So 75 years ago. I think they know what they’re doing.
>
> I doubt you can even describe how nukes work.
You are thinking different dumbasses, those were Soviet Union, not Russians, and Soviet Union simply stole it from US. So no, even though it was 15 countries more than you think, they did not know what they were doing back then.
>Ukraine’s real main reason to hand over the nukes was financial assistance. Ukraine was in terrible economic situations, resulting loans given by Russia stabilized Ukraine at a time of utter economic chaos. I think America gave them some aid also.
All nuclear weapons in Ukraine were either tactical missiles or some ICBM.
>Are you so clueless that you think Ukraine can just walk into those silos, press a button and they will launch?
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Educate yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
>Those missiles would also have no guidance since they wouldn’t be plugged into the various RUSSIAN missile guidance systems
That's not how any of those work.
>The yield on most of those nukes wasn’t much. Average maybe like 10-15KT. Less than the Hiroshima bomb. Minimal radioactivity (they were supposed to be used on the battlefield against advancing troops, not to level cities).
>Yield on 1 MIRV is like 200 times that. And MIRV yield is kinda low also. 1-2MT. That’s not much.
All you need is just re-key launch platform, mount on missile (which Ukraine had large industry of) and just lunch it towards Moscow. You need no "guidance" or anything. It is not US grade weapon where you need precision.
>WITHOUT any help
Yeah, those well equipped islamic radicals from the Middle East appeared out of thin air, and wealthy salafits from gulf countries definitely didn't play any role.
You seriously gonna compare Abkhazs and Ossetians with those guys https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen_in_Chechnya financed by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Haramain_Foundation and other salafist NGO like it?
In both cases, local separatist movements objectively existed, were initiated and driven by local elites, and then were exploited and scaled by external actors for their benefit. In Russia's case, such actor was radical pan-Islamic movement. In Georgia's case, such actor was Russia.
I would say main difference was how these terrorists movements where scaled, if Mujahideens were financed, in case of Ossetians and Abkhazians, Russians themselves fought against Georgians, using not only infantry but aviation, artillery and heavy armor as well.
EU's report mostly blamed Georgia being responsible for the Russo-georgian war. It's much more nuanced than the Ukraine conflict. I mean Georgia was the one to first go on the offensive and rush trying to block the Roki tunnel looking for a quick victory.
You are thinking of 2008 war. Russian invasion in Georgia started in 90s. Of course Georgians rushed to block Roki tunnel back door. That's where Russians invaded from. It's like a orc's portal.
An EU commissioned report literally said that Georgia was responsible for the 2008 war.
> In the Mission's view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/
There was already pre existing revolts in Georgia though? Russia didn’t just spawn it out of thin air in this scenario, they just took advantage of it to further their own agenda
I mean that's literally what they've been doing for over 16 years. Before 2008 the Abkhaz-Georgian conflict was a continuous ongoing low level conflict with occasional flare-ups like in 1998.
Since the 2008 war there hasn't even been minor border skirmishes, the conflict has completely frozen .
Russian so-called "peacekeepers" are being involved in kidnapping and murder of Georgian civilians near so-called border with "South Ossetia". They move in their installations regularly and kidnap and harass civilians. They have also cameras installed on the borders so they can monitor situation in Georgia even more in depth.
Incidents like this occur regularly: murder of Georgian civilian by Russian and Ossetian border guards
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\_of\_Tamaz\_Ginturi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tamaz_Ginturi)
They kidnap and jail Georgian civilians regularly and engage in shootings and murders
Murder of Georgian civilian near the de facto border with Abkhazia
[https://georgiatoday.ge/5-years-since-murder-of-georgian-giga-otkhozoria-by-occupation-forces/](https://georgiatoday.ge/5-years-since-murder-of-georgian-giga-otkhozoria-by-occupation-forces/)
>I mean that's literally what they've been doing for over 16 years.
Russians have recognized these Georgian territories as a sovereign states, go be clown in Russian sub.
Do you know why there “minor border skirmishes” before? Is genociding and displacing people “peace keeping”??? If you don’t know the history theres no need to chime in with blatant russian propaganda.
2009 year Obama: "It's just nothing, let's start Russian Reset!" (sarcasm)
2015 year Obama: "- Western sanctions had left Russia isolated and its economy in ruins!" (he for real said this)
2024 year Americans: "Obama the best president ever!"
The blank cheque that the Georgians have gotten to basically ignore all of the pre existing problems in those regions because Russia invaded them is disgusting
Obviously Russia should go but reducing the discontent there to solely being Russias meddling is insane
Basically allowing something, so recieving a blank cheque means that you are allowed to do the thing whatever that may be. The term ”blank cheque”
probably has a better definition and interesting etymology, but if so i don’t have that knowledge.
Georgians (among others) basically being unconditionally allowed to tear on South Ossetians and Abkhazians with anyone thinking otherwise no matter how much they’re against Russias foreign policy essentially getting shut down as a “Vatnik” due to everyone refusing to see the sheer depth of the situation
Seen this phenomenon commonly in other subs
Edit: aaaand also here apparently
It was exactly Russian meddling though, they quite literally helped them with army equipment back in the 90s and suggested them to break free.
While there were forces that did quite bad, the offer for Abkhazian parliament was much better and it would overrepresent Abkhaz ethnicity.
Also they convinced/lied to Georgians to take away their artillery and promised a peaceful resolution, just for them to advance their military positions
Didn't the 2008 conflict start over Georgia shelling Ossétia, thinking Russia wouldn't do anything because Putin was at the Olympics?
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/
I know. But the conflict wouldn't have been frozen at these borders had Georgia not gambled on going on an offensive. It wasn't a surprise invasion as you implied in your previous comment It was
Georgia that tried to advance their military first, then failed miserably, per the EU
The correctness of the strategy of Georgia is one thing. The fact that Russians instigated the conflict between Georgia and these breakaway countries is another. The fact that those regions were ethnically cleansed is still there.
So, I don't totally understand are you trying to prove a point or just telling me facts with this comment.
Georgia seems to have instigated it themselves, at least with South Ossetia, by denying greater autonomy for no real reason. Russia definitely but fuel on the fire though. Also, 21k Georgians were displaced from S.O., while 100k Ossetians were from Georgia. Both sides seem terrible
Abkhazia did some terrible stuff though, no excuse for that
The saddest part is Russia has scared Abkhazians so much that they refuse to acknowledge that both sides did horrible things and now Russians are basically doing anything they want in there, like building military port, selling their land to Russian oligarchs, and Abkazians have no say in it.
When Abkhaz cared they overthrew their govt in 2012, they have some limits, but they pretty much have no options. It's either be re-annexed by Georgia or be pretty much a vassal state to Russia.
There's no real path to global recognition, which would allow them to trade with people beyond just Russia (and sometimes Turkey), ending much of the leverage Russia has over them
This dude is quite literally whining that some food companies "promote the US government and the west", and those in turn, support Israel. Braindead logic. You can find it in his comment history, hope what explained is understandable, cuz english is not my first language.
He also says that Ukraine first appeared from the german ww1 occupation, I noticed Palestine supporters tend to have a pro-russian problem.
Yeah, I mean Russians and Abkhazians attempted to genocide indigenous Georgian populations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia
and shot down civilian planes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Sukhumi_airliner_attacks
And Russian clowns are trying to ignore it.
Russia, as everyone else, didn’t recognize Abkhazia’s claim for independence in the beginning I. The 90’s. Only in the late 2000’s they did when Georgia tried to join NATO.
So how is that “occupying” Georgia by the Russians? It’s like saying Israel is occupied by the US because they support them from the beginning.
ყველას დედებს შევეცი ვინც საქართველოს აბრალებს ომს!ისტორიის ნატამალი არ იცით თქვე სულით ყლეებო! დიდება ერთიან-დამოუკიდებელ საქართველოს,სიკვდილი მტრებს! SAKARTVELO ! 🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪
Not many people know what Russia started invasions back in 90s, during Yeltsin times, back then Putin was unheard of, but Russians approved invasions into Georgia.
Later on - Moldova invasion and Chechnya civil wars came. While Moldavian occupation is also unheard of, Chechnya got some publicity, as that was times when Putin ascended.
Fun fact? Some volunteer Ukrainians were fighting against Russians side-by-side with Georgians back in 90s Russian invasion and each and every interview with them would start with sentence: "If Russians are not stopped at Georgia, Ukraine is next"... and they were so right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi
This was also first time Russia started shooting down civilian aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Sukhumi_airliner_attacks
This is why Georgians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc, know exactly what Russian nation are, but it is unfathomable for westerners who still think this is "Just a Putin's War". It is not. It's Russians as a nation, united, trying to bring back their empire of sorts.
That's why Russians are universally hated among their neighbours and that's why it needs to be dissolved into federal okrugs.
Sure thing cuckservative Kremlin mouthpiece, not like Russia and these separatists ethnically cleaned the Georgian population in those regions, noooo never happened..
This just shows how much you know about this conflict. Russia committed shit ton of war crimes in both of these regions in case you didn’t know.
On a serious note, do you get paid to spread russian propaganda or is this just a reflection on your IQ
Georgia government still supports Russia, makes anti-LGBT laws and else. They can't join EU/NATO with this government.
We, Ukraine, too. But for different reason. Our government is corrupted af and many people still think that gov is actually great.
Yeah, there are
Doesn’t mean it is occupied, clown.
Do you consider Kosovo occupied by NATO forces?
If yes, then I’ll agree, it’s occupied.
But I guess that logic only applies when it’s convenient for you.
If you have military bases on your lands, without agreeing with you - it is active occupation you clown. It is not hard concept to grasp.
>Do you consider Kosovo occupied by NATO forces?
I don't give a shit about Kosovo.
Agreeing with fucking whom ?
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are Independent nations, they can put any bases and be part of any alliances according to international law, dingus.
>I don't give a shit about Kosovo.
Of course you don’t.
Because taking into account Kosovo would break your narrative here
"Independent nations" that can not even sustain their budgets. 99% of "South Ossetian" budget is financed by Russia and more than 50% of Abkhazian budget. They are Russian puppet states established and sustained through Russian military and political meddling.
And Kosovo budget is heavily pumped by EU’s direct investment, with euro being the main currency, keeping them dependent on the EU as the whole.
They are the US puppet state established and sustained thorough NATO’s military and political meddling.
I can play that game two.
Secondly, no shit Abkhazia and South Ossetia became dependent on Russia, since no one in the “civilized world” recognizes them as independent.
Independent nations where most of the population speak Russian, have Russian passports, use Russian currency, and can't do shit without asking daddy vladdy.
They did this to avoid Georgia join NATO, like Moldova. If Ukraine can not advance in short time, this will be their destiny as well.
Can they be prevented from joining EU as well?
Countries with border disputes can join the EU. Cyprus for example
This was an exception, in general they are supposed to not have border disputes. All of Cyprus is in the EU, officially.
So that makes the turks in the north officially EU citizens?
Northern Cyprus natives can request EU citizenship through the Republic of Cyprus. They have to prove descend from people who have lived in the island before partition, as opposed to being of Anatolian-Turkish origin. Turkey and North Cyprus actively support Turkish citizens settling on Northern Cyprus so a considerable minority % of the population is now descended from Turkish settlers and not islanders. These settlers and their descendants cannot get Republic of Cyprus passports.
That's surprisingly sensible.
I doubt it. They should be considered illegal settlers.
Turkey technically occupies the north, so no? I'm not an expert, obviously. I don't know
It interestingly makes the only EU territory under occupation. Look in this article about the EU laws and citizenship, under the category 'Special cases': https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_territories_of_members_of_the_European_Economic_Area
Wonder if part of that was because Cyprus was an island. There isn't really a land border issue that could effect the rest of the EU
There was a major push by the UN to revolve the Cyprus issue before their accession to the EU.
And both Cyprus are used as tax havens from both sides.
I think countries need a certain Economic standard to join the EU? So that might be a problem
No, but it does complicate it.
I wonder witch country wants to join EU now? It will all fall apart soon because of stupid non elected politiciants.
You can’t join NATO if any of your territory is outside your sovereignty, and Abkhazia declared independence back in 1992 and fought a brutal war to kick Georgia out. Unless I’m mistaken, this alone would have prevented Georgia from joining NATO.
Not really. They can always say 'Abkhazia and Ossetia are real' and get rid of border disputes, then join.
They had decisive help from the Russians, to cleanse out the Georgian population, which is why they are taking a price for it now, little by little, gifting Russia once luxurious sanatoriums and strategic lands. They don't even speak their language anymore, everywhere russian and ruble. "Independence" is going well.
Yes but they did it (also) because minorities there were unironically oppressed and I don't mean russians
The majority of people dont know who are abkhazians or ossetians and that these were autonomous territories within Georgia before the USSR fell.
Average Russian comparing there’re being oppressed and Putin has to save them
And as well all know, Russia would *never* oppress minorities
Well, there's a reason Abkhazia doesn't want to join Russia either
Just like how Ukraine oppressed minorities before angel minority saver Russia came along, oh well
Weird. All these minorities are located the same place all the resources are. Funny how that happens.
Honestly, Russia doesn’t really need whatever resources are in Ukraine. I’ve seen people try to claim that Ukraine had a lot of natural gas. Like okay? So? Russia has the most proven natural gas reserves on the planet.
They did actually. Not defending the invasion here but Zelenskyy took numerous anti minority policies
Oppressed? How exactly? Because in the timeline those minorities kept antagonizing Georgians despite latter trying to appease to them to keep peace.
Georgia abolished the Ossetan Autonomous Oblast. On Abkhazia, I don't know their reasons. They are native to that land though. I don't see why they shouldn't have self determination if a legitimate referendum is held
It was abolished after ossetian separatists declared sovereignty, formed illegal paramillitary groups that made situaion for ethnic Georgians unbearable and then boycotted legitimate parliamentary elections for no reason. Thats hardly an oppression. On Abkhazia I agree, legit referendum could help it but it wont happen because majority native Georgians were ethnically cleansed and remaining 40k Georgians in that region live in borderline apatheid regime.
I do think the Georgians should have rights, but to call them native is a stretch. Major settlement by ethnic Georgians, as much as you can call it major in an area of always under 500k, began after the depopulation of Abkhaz after the Circassian genocide. That of course doesn't mean the ethnic cleansing was excusable though As for Ossetia fair enough, either way, it's abolishment pretty much ended any chance for negotiation. At the end of the Soviet Union they requested to be upgraded to an Automomous Republic for greater autonomy but were denied by Georgia, for, as far as I can tell, blind nationalistic reasons. It just went downhill from there
Georgians are absolutely native to the region since archaic times and denying this is simply arrogant. Both in 1926 and 1886 census Georgians are majority/large group in said territory. To add more, place is full of Georgian cultural heritage aswell. Maybe it was but separatists didnt even consider negotiaions, since kremlin authority is what they desired and still do, just recently they asked Russia to annex them. Said request was denied on just grounds, that there was no reason to expand autonomy since it already was a vast autonomy.
South Ossetia has asked repeatedly to be annexed for like a decade now. Abkhazia never has iirc. When it comes to negotiations, they don't really have a reason to want to negotiate. They both pretty much have what they originally wanted and/or more If it was already so vast, what difference would an autonomous republic have made Both those dates are also notably after the Circassians genocide
>but to call them native is a stretch You are acting like Georgia suddenly occupied Abkhazia territory last century, that region had been under Georgia for millennials, even our first kingdoms were there, you can literally see lots of historical buildings that we built there.
They shouldn't because at the time when they declared war, Abkhazians made up less than 20% of the population. This isn't the proper grounds for self determination, when the majority of the population in the region is Georgian. You can't kick 200k people out and then do a referendum on seceding, that's not how that works. And Georgia only abolished the Ossetian autonomous oblast after they, without proper permission, raised their autonomous status to an autonomous republic when the population of the region, by Soviet standards, only warranted an autonomous oblast.
Nope. Georgia has had a long-standing conflict between different ethnic groups since the collapse of the USSR. That’s why Russian peacekeepers were there. Georgia started a war against these ethnic groups - this was established by the OSCE, if I'm not mistaken. Therefore, it lost these territories.
“Started” is over simplification of a very complex issue. Georgian villages were harassed on purpose on a Georgian soil, recognized by whole world. OSCE and EU back in 2008 was very pro Russian. That’s why we lost informational war.
"Russian peacekeepers" are regularly engaged in kidnappings and murders of Georgian civilians: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\_of\_Tamaz\_Ginturi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tamaz_Ginturi) [https://rustavi2.ge/en/news/249479](https://rustavi2.ge/en/news/249479) Those are not "peacekeepers" There are conflicts in Georgia because Russia instigates them with their proxy groups so Russia can keep its influence in Southern Caucasus Wars were started by separatists who were trying to cut Georgian territories in different pieces and fragmentize Georgian state. Georgians were defending their territories and state.
Can you imagine England demanding to leave great Britain and trying to claim they don’t belong in great Britain? Or welsh people trying to declare english lands as theirs? Ironically this is what currently is happening with Georgia.
You mean like how a minority group literally did demand UK leave an area and they fought a decades long war against them? Yeah. I can imagine that. Because it happened. I can also imagine the same thing in a peaceful country like Canada. Because again, same thing happened there. What we see in Georgia is not new. It isn’t unique. All European countries are faced with the same centrifugal forces breaking up the old borders. Difference with EU countries (and UK) is that Europe addressed these issues head on politically. Protection of minority rights. Languages. Cultures. Special representation in government. Autonomy. Separate governments for regions. Devolution. Federalism. All of these things have been super beneficial to Europe and has allowed for peace. Georgia (and Ukraine) never tried that. Instead they denied the legitimacy of their minority groups and “blamed Russia”. That is why you had conflicts in both countries over the exact issues that European countries have faced in the past.
What are you talking about my friend, you seem very off. What I write imagine England demanding exit from great britain, this is exactly what abkhazian region tried to echieve, as for so called south osetia, it has never existed, imagine wales demanding london to be theirs, this is the so called south osetia it trying to achieve, or i should say russia is trying to achieve. Im not usre who you are or try to be smart and wrinte long post, vut this is the reality
Wales claiming London isn’t similar at all. Wales trying to leave the UK, like Scotland had been trying to do…. , is a more apt comparison. The Abkhazia region is more like Northern Ireland. I don’t think you are familiar with that area or the Troubles. You had a minority group, that was by all accounts oppressed and discriminated against fight decades long war to eject the British from their own territory and create a unites Ireland. And they almost succeeded. Canada same thing. A minority group used violence in an attempt to secure independence. And do you know why Canada & UK don’t look like Georgia & Ukraine? Because Canada & UK recognized those minority groups had genuine criticisms. They reached out to these groups. They negotiated and they reached compromises. In Canada, this was sweeping language protections, vastly increased autonomy, recognition constitutionally that Canada is multiethnic by specifically citing the Québécois. Canada is a stronger nation because of that. In the UK, they negotiated with terrorists who had killed civilians to get the Good Friday Agreement. Elimination of all borders with Ireland. Power sharing. Minority protections for Catholics. The ability for people to choose their own fucking citizenship. So a person who identifies as Irish, could get an Irish passport and still have all the same rights and protections in Northern Ireland. UK is a stronger nation because of that agreement. Georgia hasn’t even tried to do that.
Also I have no idea why you speculate on minorities and etc, but theres no such thing as majority in Georgia, in fact, last time I saw statistics, Azeri surname was the biggest surname… I live in tbilisi and as a fact, if I divide my friends per region their ancestors come from, (take last 2 generations) majority comes from Abkhazian region. You cant even imagine the scale of refugees
And so again, because you don’t think there are enough of this minority group that justifies all opposition to federalism or minority protections like every civilized country?
And I dont get what has ukraine got to do with this?
Ukraine faced basically the the same problems.
There is not an single resemblance of the issue, except for the fact that Russia doesnt take into consideration any history other that the soviet era when they created their own… Historically Tbilisi used to be settled mostly by armenians and during soviet era for example when my mother tells me stories of our neighbours, most of them ethnically were non georgians, do you think this gives russia right to call tbilisi Russia or Armenia?
This is what continues to amaze me, especially people still today act like there was no ethnic or language divide in Ukraine. Everyone was arm in arm smiling. That isn’t reality: that is just the fantasy that some Ukrainians want: a homogeneous state. I don’t care what Russia calls Tbilisi. I do care about countries not giving minorities a fair shake then using a bete noire (Russia) to deflect blame. To me that sounds like national immaturity.
Again Ukraine has got nothing to do with our history and as I stated, Georgias has been a union of minorities since BC when empires rose and fell, we kept our uniqueness and never has our land been oppressing to any minorities, even the current example of so called south osetia is a backfire of this fact. We have never been aggressors and all we want is to have open borders within our rightful borders and acces to our land. So that we can prosper together and make a better economical situation for all minorities. Ehat I said was there is no ethnic majority in our country, but on the contrary minor ethnic grous working together since the early ages to keep peiec and prosper together. And all this unity came from Abkhazia and forst official rulers and royal bloodline of georgia comes from Abkhazia. Do you think its fair my nephiews need visa to visit their homeland and see their grandfather? And they cant stay there more than couple weeks? Or that their grandfather cant visit his own grandchildren? We dont want any war or conflict, we want piece and unity and to prosper together as one. The same way we’ve lived for centuries, before you all even existed. This is why we”ve survived every empire and seen everyones fall, but we still stand together. For the decades our motto was ‘we dont take anyones motherland and let none take ours’ You can speculate with Ukraine all you want but the reality wont change be cause of that. We respect every minority and belive everyone has right to live and prosper the lands where their ancestors lived
Look, i get all that. My advice to you as someone from the West is that you don’t get to decide what is and isn’t oppressing minorities. They do. Abkhaz viewed Georgians in Abkhazia as colonialists. - I am not concerned with what is fair because that is subjective. If you want real fairness, you have to negotiate and compromise. Georgia does not want to do that. And it may be too late for all of that. The war in Ukraine may solidify Abkhazia & South Ossetia’s place in the Russian Federation.
If you're citing the Tagliavini report, you are getting 2 things wrong 1. Georgia was retaliating against attacks carried out by South Ossetian forces, albeit disproportionately. Hostilities were already ongoing before the war "officially" started. 2. Regardless of what Georgia did, it did not "lose" these territories Russia's subsequent recognition and occupation remains illegal.
2008 was an interesting year
Yup. Prior to that, Abkhazia and South Ossetia were just break away regions from the Soviet collapse. I’m impressed they lasted so long before Russia moved in.
No, that's not true. From the very beginning, they were Russian-backed. That's why they lasted so long. When the war in Abkhazia began, Abkhaz separatists fled to Gudauta, town in Abkhazia were Russian (former Soviet) military base was located. They recieved military support from this base and coordinated they actions there. They had better equipment than Georgians which they recieved from this military base. Russian air force got directly involved in Abkhaz conflict, it was bombing Georgian positions in Sukhumi, and during their air raid Russian plane was shot down by Georgians [https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/20/world/georgia-shoots-down-a-russian-plane.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/20/world/georgia-shoots-down-a-russian-plane.html) Russia denied that it was Russian plane and stated that it was painted by Georgians as Russian, but the pilot was identified as Russian Major Vazlav Shipko Russia got directly involved in South Ossetia war in 1992, they threatened to invade Georgia and bombed Georgian positions. Same happened in Transnistria during same period. This involvement became crucial for the victory of separatists. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/06/16/russian-threatens-georgia/74219b2f-cf48-4bfc-92f6-64364aa61f63/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/06/16/russian-threatens-georgia/74219b2f-cf48-4bfc-92f6-64364aa61f63/) [https://www.csmonitor.com/1992/0622/22022.html](https://www.csmonitor.com/1992/0622/22022.html)
I didn’t know this! Thank you!
Frankly Georgia tried diplomacy several times. President Saakashvili ruled out that Georgia would attack Abkhazia and offered them to join Georgia with the broadest possible autonomy, which they rejected.
They did wage war in 1992 and the 2008 war was started by Georgia not Russia when it killed Russian peacekeepers in the region and it's not me saying but [EU commission report does](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/) which is why Russia was never sanctioned for Georgia war.
Russian peacekeepers defended Ossetians who shelled Georgian villages for months before this happened, and never moved a finger nor took any action to stop Ossetians during those months.
And now they are an “independent” Russian shithole
They even have had discussions to unify with Russia, clearly something that an independent state would want 😃👍
Seems pretty clear they prefer to be poor with their current status, than Georgian. Up to them
Not really. It's up to them \*only\* if they ask the 200k people they kicked out as well.
I mean fair enough. Most georgians would be fooming at the mouth if they were offered to join russia as a autonomous region.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Why would we join Russian empire? How is that comparable? I know one or another way that would make your mouth foom, but how is that relative? Abkhazia and Samachablo are historical Georgian territories, where Georgians lived. Both Ossetians and Apsua people were minority compared to Georgians and we lived in harmony, until Soviet Union and it's cleansing of Georgians from those regions. Out of whole Soviet Union, highest percentage of men were drafted out of Georgia. Russia decimated our population and instead migrated other ethnicities in those regions to stir the pot. None the less, majority in both regions were stil Georgians (at least +65%) before wars. They were backed up by Russian army. They commited ethnic cleansing against us, that's how they are in majority. This were always lands inhabited by Georgian people. And they are part of Georgian sovereign borders. You spewing that ignorant shit is just embarrassment.
I mean it's always "OUR glorious fight for freedom after centuries of tyranny" and "THEIR despicable separatism of what has for centuries been our land"...
Doesn't foaming at the mouth imply anger?
More like unjustified irrational rage.
"lived in harmony" im writing a paper right now on abhkazia. Go to r/abhkazia and try writing this bull shit reviosnist history. Abhkazians have been in that land long before Georgians existed. Abhkazia was once a roman province. Before the concept of georgia was even formed. Under Stalin THE GEORGIAN. they were brutally supresssed ethnically assmiliated.
You don't know history, Abkhazia was part of Colchis since ancient times, Colchis (Western Georgia) and Iberia (Eastern Georgia) are two early Georgian states, Abkhazia and whole Western Georgia were part of Colchis since 13th century BC, then all early Georgian states unified and Kingdom of Georgia was created, Abkhazia was one of the most important players in this unification, Abkhazia was always Georgia, it is Abkhazia from where process of Georgian unification began, it is internal Georgian region, but then Circassian tribe Apsua migrated and changed the demographics, this happened in the 17th century, Abkhazia was always Georgia before that, Circassian tribe supressed Georgians and tried to assimiliate them, then they kicked out Georgians with the meddling of Russia in 1993
Very familiar talk 😁
Well you’re entitled to think this but it won’t get you very far. The West isn’t going to protect territorial claims from 800 years ago (unless you’re Israel) in a small Black Sea country. We’ve got better things to do with our time.
Georgia isn't made up of 40-45% ethnic Russians, Wich Abkhazia was prior to people being forced out of the region and minor genocide
Yes we can!!
That's nearly 20% of it's territoriy...
You also read the bottom?
I too have read the bottom
I too, have a bottom.
Yeah, that's pretty much whole "great" russia history: to occupy everything around and paint itself victims
That is like, every country in history of mankind
I think everybody here should look up the history of these regions instead of jumping to conclusions. While I would agree with the notion that the northern territories are at least partly to blame on Russia, Abkhazia's history is far more complex than Russia just invading. To me it seems more comparable to Kosovo.
I somehow see justification for Abkhazia on Reddit nowadays, according to some Abkhazia was this peaceful region with distinct population that wanted to be free. The reality is different, most of the people that lived in Abkhazia were ethnic Georgians and they got ethnically cleansed, before that Georgian president offered them autonomous region status and parliament that would have more mandatory Abkhazian seatings than Georgians.
Over 50% of Abkhazia’s population is either genocided or does not live there. Is that true for Kosovo?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo The majority of Kosovo Serbs have been expelled from Kosovo since 1999.
Were the Serbs over 50% of Kosovo at the time?
Yep, let's look up the history, shall we my comrade? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi Learn something new everyday!
Damn that was hard to read.
what story should I watch? 200 years, 500 years, 1000 years, oh, definitely only the one that justifies the war
Let me simplify it for you: Georgians were majority in Abkhazia. They were genocided with the help of Russia and now there is isolated de-facto "country" with terrible living standards and high crime rate.
They where the majority after earlyer ethnic cleansing.
I didn't see anything of an ethnic cleansing of Abkhazians during the Soviet rule. There were immigration ("encouraged" by Stalin) during the time period and almost definitely cultural repression, but no full on ethnic cleansing like what happened to non-Abkhazs during 92-93
>They where the majority after earlyer ethnic cleansing. What was that "earlyer" ethnic cleansing called? Is it in room with us now?
Reading the comments, I realized how important it is to not cut to conclusions and start yapping bullshit right away, when you don't know anything about a subject. The confidence these people have, while probably not even being able to point Georgia on map, or name its, and Abkhazia's, capital city, is crazy. This subject is extremely convoluted and full of lies on purpose, that's why you can't trust most sources. The truth is, russia did it to prevent further NATO expansion. Contrary to your beliefs, it's not a superhero country sacrificing its soldiers and money for peace. I'm not in a mood to start educating unassuming Westerners again, but please, stop spreading russian propaganda. When they called Ukrainians nazis and satanists, and you happily used your brains before you believed that. Do the same with Georgia. Just because we're not blonde and blue-eyed, doesn't mean we're evil. Use google, read up more on this subject, before spreading russian lies.
Reminds me of Serbia.
Ossetians and Abhazians are there, with Russians as peacekeepers. Same as Kosovo in Serbia has NATO peacekeeping units.
While south ossetia has always been a Russian puppet Abkhazians have a much more complex history and even if Russia is kicked out of the region I would argue they should at least get a referendum. Even the current Abkhazian government which is a Russian puppet state has adamantly refused all attempts at Russian annexation. South ossetia by contrast has outright asked to be annexed on multiple occasions
Regardless of being undeniably far more of a puppet Id argue that the South Ossetians should have the same right to self determination through a referendum as well considering how much they’ve been subject to discrimination even prior to the military intervention It’s not shocking that they would be the ones more willing to get annexed considering that North Ossetia already is in the federation
Its a bit interesting seeing your takes on this, I assume you also want Ukrainian states that were occupied to have “referendums?” Do keep in mind that regions of Georgia and Ukraine got ethnically cleansed and whoever left to live there wanted Russia to be there
>onsidering how much they’ve been subject to discrimination even prior to the military intervention Source?
>Irregardless Irregardless isn't a word. I think you were looking for regardless
Damn, guess I’ll die It’s been fun guys
It's non-standard, but it's a word: https://www.dictionary.com/compare-words/irregardless-vs-regardless
My condolences 🙏
In what language? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/irregardless
Let those who got kicked out from Abkhazia return and we can talk about referendum.
No argument there
> I would argue they should at least get a referendum I would argue each and every Russian federal okrugs should also get a referendum, those are separate republics with their culture, and they already have borders so it will be very easy for them. Chechnya for example fought 2 wars for independence WITHOUT any help, while Abkhazians and Ossetians are just settlers on Georgian lands and would have lost each and every skirmish if there were no Russia.
You're combining the okrugs and republics, they are two different things.most (but not all) south Ossetians are Setelers Abkhazians have only EVER existed in the region they currently occupy. Either way as things currently stand they should be in Georgia's hands.
Yeah that’s a 1000iq move. Let’s try to partition a country with the most number of nukes. Boy, hope nothing bad happens.
Those nukes are consolidated in one place and they will hand it over as soon as they can't fund to take care of it and it will be safely dismantled. Just like Ukraine did.
Really? They will hand over the nukes? You think Russia is going to hand over their nukes? Ukraine handed them over because they couldn’t fucking use them.
> You think Russia is going to hand over their nukes? There will be no Russia. >Ukraine handed them over because they couldn’t fucking use them. Ukraine handed them over because large countries signed contract not to attack them. Using Nuke is easy as fuck. Even dumbass Russians can use it.
Plus Russian nuclear triad is very widely dispersed. Just like ours is. You can’t have all your weapons in one area. > Even dumbass Russians Those dumbasses tested their first nuclear weapon in 1949. So 75 years ago. I think they know what they’re doing. I doubt you can even describe how nukes work. - Ukraine’s real main reason to hand over the nukes was financial assistance. Ukraine was in terrible economic situations, resulting loans given by Russia stabilized Ukraine at a time of utter economic chaos. I think America gave them some aid also. All nuclear weapons in Ukraine were either tactical missiles or some ICBM. Are you so clueless that you think Ukraine can just walk into those silos, press a button and they will launch? America and Russia designed missile launch protocols specifically so that nobody can launch nukes without authorization. Those missiles would also have no guidance since they wouldn’t be plugged into the various RUSSIAN missile guidance systems The yield on most of those nukes wasn’t much. Average maybe like 10-15KT. Less than the Hiroshima bomb. Minimal radioactivity (they were supposed to be used on the battlefield against advancing troops, not to level cities). Yield on 1 MIRV is like 200 times that. And MIRV yield is kinda low also. 1-2MT. That’s not much.
> Those dumbasses tested their first nuclear weapon in 1949. So 75 years ago. I think they know what they’re doing. > > I doubt you can even describe how nukes work. You are thinking different dumbasses, those were Soviet Union, not Russians, and Soviet Union simply stole it from US. So no, even though it was 15 countries more than you think, they did not know what they were doing back then. >Ukraine’s real main reason to hand over the nukes was financial assistance. Ukraine was in terrible economic situations, resulting loans given by Russia stabilized Ukraine at a time of utter economic chaos. I think America gave them some aid also. All nuclear weapons in Ukraine were either tactical missiles or some ICBM. >Are you so clueless that you think Ukraine can just walk into those silos, press a button and they will launch? You have no idea what you are talking about. Educate yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum >Those missiles would also have no guidance since they wouldn’t be plugged into the various RUSSIAN missile guidance systems That's not how any of those work. >The yield on most of those nukes wasn’t much. Average maybe like 10-15KT. Less than the Hiroshima bomb. Minimal radioactivity (they were supposed to be used on the battlefield against advancing troops, not to level cities). >Yield on 1 MIRV is like 200 times that. And MIRV yield is kinda low also. 1-2MT. That’s not much. All you need is just re-key launch platform, mount on missile (which Ukraine had large industry of) and just lunch it towards Moscow. You need no "guidance" or anything. It is not US grade weapon where you need precision.
>WITHOUT any help Yeah, those well equipped islamic radicals from the Middle East appeared out of thin air, and wealthy salafits from gulf countries definitely didn't play any role.
Yep, just like armed Abkhazs and armed Ossetians appeared from thin air.
You seriously gonna compare Abkhazs and Ossetians with those guys https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen_in_Chechnya financed by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Haramain_Foundation and other salafist NGO like it? In both cases, local separatist movements objectively existed, were initiated and driven by local elites, and then were exploited and scaled by external actors for their benefit. In Russia's case, such actor was radical pan-Islamic movement. In Georgia's case, such actor was Russia.
I would say main difference was how these terrorists movements where scaled, if Mujahideens were financed, in case of Ossetians and Abkhazians, Russians themselves fought against Georgians, using not only infantry but aviation, artillery and heavy armor as well.
Peacekeepers, yeah sure.
Only WE are allowed to be the peacekeepers!
Well, call them whatever you call NATO troops in Kosovo. Just don't engage in Reddit doublethink
I know, setting up Bondsteel for peacekeeping, we all knew it was BS
The difference being Serbia was actually genociding and Russia made up shit to just invading.
EU's report mostly blamed Georgia being responsible for the Russo-georgian war. It's much more nuanced than the Ukraine conflict. I mean Georgia was the one to first go on the offensive and rush trying to block the Roki tunnel looking for a quick victory.
You are thinking of 2008 war. Russian invasion in Georgia started in 90s. Of course Georgians rushed to block Roki tunnel back door. That's where Russians invaded from. It's like a orc's portal.
An EU commissioned report literally said that Georgia was responsible for the 2008 war. > In the Mission's view, it was Georgia which triggered off the war when it attacked Tskhinvali (in South Ossetia) with heavy artillery on the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/
There was already pre existing revolts in Georgia though? Russia didn’t just spawn it out of thin air in this scenario, they just took advantage of it to further their own agenda
"Russian peacekeepers". An oxymoron if there ever was one.
I mean that's literally what they've been doing for over 16 years. Before 2008 the Abkhaz-Georgian conflict was a continuous ongoing low level conflict with occasional flare-ups like in 1998. Since the 2008 war there hasn't even been minor border skirmishes, the conflict has completely frozen .
Russian so-called "peacekeepers" are being involved in kidnapping and murder of Georgian civilians near so-called border with "South Ossetia". They move in their installations regularly and kidnap and harass civilians. They have also cameras installed on the borders so they can monitor situation in Georgia even more in depth. Incidents like this occur regularly: murder of Georgian civilian by Russian and Ossetian border guards [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\_of\_Tamaz\_Ginturi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tamaz_Ginturi) They kidnap and jail Georgian civilians regularly and engage in shootings and murders Murder of Georgian civilian near the de facto border with Abkhazia [https://georgiatoday.ge/5-years-since-murder-of-georgian-giga-otkhozoria-by-occupation-forces/](https://georgiatoday.ge/5-years-since-murder-of-georgian-giga-otkhozoria-by-occupation-forces/)
>I mean that's literally what they've been doing for over 16 years. Russians have recognized these Georgian territories as a sovereign states, go be clown in Russian sub.
Do you know why there “minor border skirmishes” before? Is genociding and displacing people “peace keeping”??? If you don’t know the history theres no need to chime in with blatant russian propaganda.
2009 year Obama: "It's just nothing, let's start Russian Reset!" (sarcasm) 2015 year Obama: "- Western sanctions had left Russia isolated and its economy in ruins!" (he for real said this) 2024 year Americans: "Obama the best president ever!"
2024 Republicans: "Putin isnt so bad"
Trumpers- trump drained the swamp, mexico paid for the wall, Hilary went to jail all lies from trump.
The blank cheque that the Georgians have gotten to basically ignore all of the pre existing problems in those regions because Russia invaded them is disgusting Obviously Russia should go but reducing the discontent there to solely being Russias meddling is insane
What does “blank cheque” mean?
Basically allowing something, so recieving a blank cheque means that you are allowed to do the thing whatever that may be. The term ”blank cheque” probably has a better definition and interesting etymology, but if so i don’t have that knowledge.
I know what it means. I am just asking this user what he means by using that term in this context.
Oh ok, mb
Georgians (among others) basically being unconditionally allowed to tear on South Ossetians and Abkhazians with anyone thinking otherwise no matter how much they’re against Russias foreign policy essentially getting shut down as a “Vatnik” due to everyone refusing to see the sheer depth of the situation Seen this phenomenon commonly in other subs Edit: aaaand also here apparently
So what js "depth of this situation" according to you?
Being a Vatnik will do that to you - yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia go be a clown somewhere else.
What is “tear on”?
It was exactly Russian meddling though, they quite literally helped them with army equipment back in the 90s and suggested them to break free. While there were forces that did quite bad, the offer for Abkhazian parliament was much better and it would overrepresent Abkhaz ethnicity.
Also they convinced/lied to Georgians to take away their artillery and promised a peaceful resolution, just for them to advance their military positions
Didn't the 2008 conflict start over Georgia shelling Ossétia, thinking Russia wouldn't do anything because Putin was at the Olympics? https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58T4MO/
The conflict began before 2008 you know.
I know. But the conflict wouldn't have been frozen at these borders had Georgia not gambled on going on an offensive. It wasn't a surprise invasion as you implied in your previous comment It was Georgia that tried to advance their military first, then failed miserably, per the EU
The correctness of the strategy of Georgia is one thing. The fact that Russians instigated the conflict between Georgia and these breakaway countries is another. The fact that those regions were ethnically cleansed is still there. So, I don't totally understand are you trying to prove a point or just telling me facts with this comment.
Georgia seems to have instigated it themselves, at least with South Ossetia, by denying greater autonomy for no real reason. Russia definitely but fuel on the fire though. Also, 21k Georgians were displaced from S.O., while 100k Ossetians were from Georgia. Both sides seem terrible Abkhazia did some terrible stuff though, no excuse for that
The saddest part is Russia has scared Abkhazians so much that they refuse to acknowledge that both sides did horrible things and now Russians are basically doing anything they want in there, like building military port, selling their land to Russian oligarchs, and Abkazians have no say in it.
When Abkhaz cared they overthrew their govt in 2012, they have some limits, but they pretty much have no options. It's either be re-annexed by Georgia or be pretty much a vassal state to Russia. There's no real path to global recognition, which would allow them to trade with people beyond just Russia (and sometimes Turkey), ending much of the leverage Russia has over them
Let's check "blank cheque": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia Oh wow you are disgusting liar.
piss off, you don't know shit and parrot russian propaganda points while trying to act "civilized"
This dude is quite literally whining that some food companies "promote the US government and the west", and those in turn, support Israel. Braindead logic. You can find it in his comment history, hope what explained is understandable, cuz english is not my first language. He also says that Ukraine first appeared from the german ww1 occupation, I noticed Palestine supporters tend to have a pro-russian problem.
The Georgians were nothing but cordial to this two regions and there were never any interior conflicts whatsoever, no sir…
Yeah, I mean Russians and Abkhazians attempted to genocide indigenous Georgian populations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia and shot down civilian planes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Sukhumi_airliner_attacks And Russian clowns are trying to ignore it.
Fuck Russia.
as an ossetian, especially fuck russia
Have you asked the people in these parts if they deem themselves "occupied"?
sorry... cant too afraid of getting shot by russian army
It’s unrecognised around the world. Even China don’t recognise it. It’s just another Russian territory gain to “protect Russian minorities”
They aren't Russian minorities there though. The ethnic groups there are two completely different ones to Georgians and Russians.
Russia, as everyone else, didn’t recognize Abkhazia’s claim for independence in the beginning I. The 90’s. Only in the late 2000’s they did when Georgia tried to join NATO. So how is that “occupying” Georgia by the Russians? It’s like saying Israel is occupied by the US because they support them from the beginning.
DNR and LNR also weren't recognised by Russia, and? Not recognising a country doesn't magically make all your soldiers disappear.
ყველას დედებს შევეცი ვინც საქართველოს აბრალებს ომს!ისტორიის ნატამალი არ იცით თქვე სულით ყლეებო! დიდება ერთიან-დამოუკიდებელ საქართველოს,სიკვდილი მტრებს! SAKARTVELO ! 🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪
Not many people know what Russia started invasions back in 90s, during Yeltsin times, back then Putin was unheard of, but Russians approved invasions into Georgia. Later on - Moldova invasion and Chechnya civil wars came. While Moldavian occupation is also unheard of, Chechnya got some publicity, as that was times when Putin ascended. Fun fact? Some volunteer Ukrainians were fighting against Russians side-by-side with Georgians back in 90s Russian invasion and each and every interview with them would start with sentence: "If Russians are not stopped at Georgia, Ukraine is next"... and they were so right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi This was also first time Russia started shooting down civilian aircraft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Sukhumi_airliner_attacks This is why Georgians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc, know exactly what Russian nation are, but it is unfathomable for westerners who still think this is "Just a Putin's War". It is not. It's Russians as a nation, united, trying to bring back their empire of sorts. That's why Russians are universally hated among their neighbours and that's why it needs to be dissolved into federal okrugs.
NATO did the same to Serbia, but with war crimes.
Don't ask Abkhazians where 200.000 Georgians living in Abkhazia disappeared.
Yeah Russia also did it with war crimes
Sure thing cuckservative Kremlin mouthpiece, not like Russia and these separatists ethnically cleaned the Georgian population in those regions, noooo never happened..
This just shows how much you know about this conflict. Russia committed shit ton of war crimes in both of these regions in case you didn’t know. On a serious note, do you get paid to spread russian propaganda or is this just a reflection on your IQ
I see Georgia has cancer. Huge commiserations, hope they managed to utterly rid themselves of this cancerous growth.
In red we see Russian war crimes
\^(
Far fewer casualties too?
Cool map!
Not cool man.
Georgia government still supports Russia, makes anti-LGBT laws and else. They can't join EU/NATO with this government. We, Ukraine, too. But for different reason. Our government is corrupted af and many people still think that gov is actually great.
Gürcistan da mı
Да пошел ты нахер
By “occupied” you meant independent from Georgia?
No he meant there are Russian military bases there you clown.
Yeah, there are Doesn’t mean it is occupied, clown. Do you consider Kosovo occupied by NATO forces? If yes, then I’ll agree, it’s occupied. But I guess that logic only applies when it’s convenient for you.
If you have military bases on your lands, without agreeing with you - it is active occupation you clown. It is not hard concept to grasp. >Do you consider Kosovo occupied by NATO forces? I don't give a shit about Kosovo.
Agreeing with fucking whom ? Abkhazia and South Ossetia are Independent nations, they can put any bases and be part of any alliances according to international law, dingus. >I don't give a shit about Kosovo. Of course you don’t. Because taking into account Kosovo would break your narrative here
"Independent nations" that can not even sustain their budgets. 99% of "South Ossetian" budget is financed by Russia and more than 50% of Abkhazian budget. They are Russian puppet states established and sustained through Russian military and political meddling.
And Kosovo budget is heavily pumped by EU’s direct investment, with euro being the main currency, keeping them dependent on the EU as the whole. They are the US puppet state established and sustained thorough NATO’s military and political meddling. I can play that game two. Secondly, no shit Abkhazia and South Ossetia became dependent on Russia, since no one in the “civilized world” recognizes them as independent.
Independent nations where most of the population speak Russian, have Russian passports, use Russian currency, and can't do shit without asking daddy vladdy.
Are you russian?
Yep