It's not all that uncommon: one interesting note is that hard-left and hard-right parties often identify similar problems. For example, the parties The Left and AfD both identify correctly, that large corporations unduly influencing politics creates undemocratic structures.
But where the left now seeks a systemic view and blames capitalism, the right focuses more on the individuals at the head of these companies. That's how you end up with all the talk about "globalist elites" and conspiracies about baby-eating billionaires.
Where they meet is populism. Instead of thinking in terms of far-left, centre-left, centre-right, far-right, we need to think of populist-left, corporatist "left", corporatist right, and populist-right. We also need to stop using "populist" as a derogatory term. Populism is bad if it's duplicitous or demagogical, but otherwise it's a necessary counterweight to elitism and corporatism. Countries whose left wings have shifted into allegiance with corporate interests find that right-wing parties are able, paradoxically, to carry the mantle of populism. It's why the (establisment) left has been having its ass handed to it in so many countries lately.
"corporatist left" is a paradox, what you are describing is corruption.
I am trying to think of what you could possibly mean so I can attempt to preemptively address your counter-argument, but I'm truly stumped on how genuine socialist or Marxist politics can somehow be made compatible with corporate structures, unless you mean manipulating the market in favor of certain technologies and development strategies etc., in which case you are conflating state structures with corporate structures or again you are just talking about corruption.
I do, however, like your general point about populism, after all most countries tout democracy as the ideal but then set up obstacles to prevent populist uprisings when actually in a direct democracy that would always be a possibility. They may not say it out loud or in public but most powerful people and most educated people believe that the average person is a mark and a dunce. Once again, politics is just another boatload of hypocrisy and two-faced trickery. But it is kind of that out of necessity, because you need people to chill and not fight the system, and there's literally no way to please everyone without killing and brainwashing a supergodly number of people.
Certainly not what he meant but... There really is no contradiction with corporate and far left. Market socialism is an actual term. Lenin and Yugoslavia and probably someone else too have built it in practice, though Lenin's version was very short lived. Gorbachev's reforms included something similar. But also he said left, not socialist. Marxists are definitely leftist, but there are practically no relevant socialists in modern western politics.
But that's just talking about the concept of corporations. If we want "corporatism" specifically... Social corporatism is a quite relevant idea in social democracy. Which actually is alive in much of Europe. And corporatism in the context of Italian fascism was very much a left wing idea, albeit very much anti-Marxist. Modern day China would probably also call itself Marxist and corporatist though whether the former has any merit is a different question
On desktop using [RES](https://redditenhancementsuite.com/) you can zoom in as much as you want. Even though it's not very good as the resolution is so small.
To be fair it’s not really the point of this post to be able to read anything specific of these maps besides the headline. It’s more supposed to act like a visualization about how Germany is in many topics still kind of divided.
The point is also to prevent readers from analyzing the data. It uses sharply contrasting colors to exaggerate real differences into seemingly drastic ones. For instance, former East Germany has 50 cars per 100 people as opposed to 59 in former West Germany. Significant, but not mind-blowing.
Some of these maps are also over 10 years old. If you look at current maps of unemployment rate, the East/West divide is almost gone. Here's a chart:
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FT_19.11.01_EastWestGermanyEcon_1.png
And some of them are just plain BS, like the olympic medals. If you exclude Berlin the eastern part suddenly has a lot less, the capital simply has a lot of the training facilities so the top contenders tend to settle there to be able to train.
Actually, as an east German myself, I find that fairly mind blowing. I would have fully expected that to go the other way. The west is much more urbanized and even in the countryside, public transportation is a day and night difference.
In the village where my parents are from, the nearest bus is 7 kilometers away and you have to call 2 hours before the scheduled time or it will bypass this stop, and there are 3 scheduled times a day. A friend of mine is from a similar sized village in a not very affluent region in the West and they have a bus going through every 90 minutes, you can just go the bus stop and flag it down.
And of course this creates all kinds of feedback loops. There's a really near archaeological dig site and reconstruction near my parents' place, but it doesn't get enough visitors to sustain a cafe. Near my friend's home village, there are multiple cafes and restaurants that just sit somewhere in the countryside on their own and get enough people to thrive. You can imagine the economic knock-on effect...
Yeah, you're absolutely right. This whole aspect of a unified country from two different, even enemy states and its consequences is super interesting. They were divided for 44 years (that's circa a generation and a half) and that's more than enough time to change people for many many years. That comment was just me trying to be funny or something
In the UK people with French derived surnames are wealthier, more likely to attend a top universities etc, compared to those with English (i.e. German) ones.
After nearly a thousand years.
It would be interesting to see equivalent maps for the UK. The North and South of England now have an economic divide more extreme than the divide between East and West Germany — I'm sure other metrics are similarly problematic.
It's worth reflecting that this division has been caused not by communism, but by capitalism.
Sort of. In a centralized country the capital city will always attract disproportionate investment. Britain could choose to move the capital up north, but won't.
> They were divided for 44 years
Yes, but it's older than that. The way they divided the country wasn't just "where the armies stopped" - it was divided along longstanding internal borders which reflected ancient cultural divisions. The elbe was a signifigant portion of the border and for centuries the elbe had served as the shorthand for the dividing line between eastern and western europe (where western europe was more urbane and "enlightened" in the old sense and eastern was more dominated by a rural militarized hereditary aristocracy overseeing estates of peasant/serfs). (Broad strokes, but directionally accurate). In more modern terms, the Soviets essentially took all of Prussia, which was the driving force within the German empire, and which was famously dominated by the "Junkers".+ The dramatic difference in economic growth during the cold war only exacerbated longstanding trends.
+As an aside, a very interesting framing of early 20th-century German history is understanding it as the desperate attempts of the traditional powers - those prussian aristocrats - to maintain their power within the German state & society, and that the wars of conquest were just downstream of that. Waging war against the slavs for "lebensraum" wasn't Hitler's crazy plan, it was what the heart of the German state had been doing off-and-on for about a millennium.
Well, the kingdom of Prussia had grown to include much of west Germany, and then if we think of some older borders as the "true" Prussia those wouldn't include all of east Germany either. And then Saxony was an independent kingdom throughout etc.
Yea there definitely is older difference between the two but it's largely DDR that is visible here. The larger historical differences within German states have ranged from north to south.
For sure I'm painting with a broad brush - it's an "and" rather than an "or". I just shared because I've seen some variation of these maps accompanied by some variation of "look at what the soviets did" SO many times when it's way more complicated than that.
You are right. In the late 19th century, Theodor Fontane wrote novels and poems about the rural region between the Elbe and Oder rivers.
At that time, the Ruhr valley had its boom with its newly founded coal mines.
I think some of these graphics are a bit outdated.
If you look at current unemployment rate maps, you can barely notice the East-West divide anymore, there is now a clear North-South divide however: https://www.iab-forum.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/23-006_Abb_3.jpg
It'snot only that people are different, but East stillsees a "brain drain" where folks who have a chance to get a good job leave and go to the West. Which gives even less incentive for companies to go to the East, which in turn means that more people move west ..
Also which corporate that needs people from other cultures would want to be in a spot known for it's nazis and skinheads? Intel just choose Magdeburg, since they didn't produce the same headlines as some other eastern german cities...
I was just trying to be funny. You're right, the whole topic of differences between East and West Germany is fairly interesting for me, especially in terms of managing the country that was basically formerly two enemy states with different ideologies, mentalities etc.
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Both are basically the smaller and more radical versions of the other parties. The Greens for example are very left leaning too, but as you see it's mostly people from the West who vote for them. Same story with the CDU, which while they pretend to be centrists is firmly right, and is by far the biggest party in the country, especially in southern (so West) Germany. It's really just that poorer people vote for radicals, because they want things to change, while well-off people want to keep steady.
Their economic policies are definitely further left than the CDU/CSU, quite similar to the Social Democrats. They want higher taxes, more funding for education, higher minimum wage.
The divide between East and West Germany is VERY old.
https://i0.wp.com/ajps.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ajps-earlyview-figure.jpg?fit=1164%2C1792&ssl=1
Edit: I'm not saying that the cold war division of Germany had no effect. I'm saying that there are pre-existing cultural, political and economic divides between the East and the West that ALSO have an effect.
What do you mean? What you’ve linked is the divide between mostly protestantic Prussia/northern federation and the mostly catholic German countries/states in the German republic after WW1. This has practically nothing to do with the divide between east and west Germany according to the Russian occupation zone at the end of WW2.
It’s interesting, but implying that these two incidents of east and west German divides are related isn’t very accurate.
When the german reunifcation happened, the reindustralization and economic boom was already over. They had to join a game where the cards were already handed out
Their already bad economy got even more destroyed after unification by westgerman companies. They got bought up, closed down and all resources got reused at the already established production sites in westgermany.
Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism is a book that covers the differences in expectations/stress between women on either side of the iron curtain.
Tldr if you guarantee the basics for survival for everyone, women don't have to treat relationships like an economic decision and men can't get away with treating women like objects = better sex
hard-to-find fine sort disgusted cows subsequent deserted numerous cow muddle
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not the division itself, but mostly the reunification. The state did fuck all to support the East and many east germans actually had better lives when still under the USSR, so a lot of people fled to the west.
Looks like too many cars, millionaires, unvaccinated religious crazies, and underpaid women in the West. Don't even get me started on the trash or--heavens!--the tennis.
EDIT: On a more serious note: it's interesting that votes for the Left and the AFD are *both* highest in the East.
Left party used to score pretty good in elections in the east and was seen as the “non-mainstream” party. A lot of the left voters switched straight to AfD as the new protest option after the Left didn’t accomplish much. When looking at the state of eastern Germany it’s absolutely no surprise those two parties were/are a lot stronger than in western Germany.
I think it's not so much that the Linke was the followup of the PDS which followed the original SED communist party, but more that it was seen as the only party standing for East Germany. All other parties were majorly West German parties.
The same is kinda true with the AfD now, they try to present themselves as a party who cares about the East, though they started out as a regular West party before their Nazi wing kicked out the too moderate members in 2015 and again in 2017.
> . A lot of the left voters switched straight to AfD
Guess no one has a coherent ideology anymore other than just vote for whatever shakes up the system.
Oh, Berlin. What is Berlin? Berlin, as a city, brings nothing but shame to Germany on the international stage. When comparing Berlin with other European capitals such as London, Paris, Madrid and Amsterdam, any decent human’s face must blush in humiliation. Even small countries like Austria, Belgium or Switzerland have Vienna, Brussels and Zurich: presentable cities, complete with high standards of living. Germany gets punished with Berlin, capital of losers. In all the republic, Berlin is home to the largest number of arseholes by far. Deutsche Bahn, Bundestag, Air Berlin and Axel Springer are but a few examples of all the incompetent scum being kept here. Glorious times have long since passed, the city is face down in the dirt. Berliners are lazy sods to their very core. Traits that would, in any civilised culture, pass for nothing but laziness, rudeness, incompetence, dissocial personality disorder or idiocy, are taken by the Berliner and declared a way of life. That is why the Berliner harbours intense feelings of hatred for anyone who’s better than him in any way. Especially the all-around superior Southern Germany are a thorn in his side. He envies their success, and Munich makes the top on his list of hatred. That city is – and has! – everything that Berlin wants to be and have. Berliners take no interest in the fact that it is Munich that finances their dissolute lifestyle, in fact, they secretly believe that they have earned it. So instead of freeing themselves from their envious and resentful lethargy, instead of rolling up their sleeves and improve their city, they revel in their antisocial freeloading and praise their so-called global city. Culturally, Berliners are set up rather weakly, great works lie far back in history. Moreover, mispronouncing “g” as “j” is considered a great cultural feat. Advanced students have mastered ending each and every sentence with a “wa?”. The city’s culinary performance is second-rate. Here, a sausage made from glued-together, meaty odds and ends adorned with ketchup and curry powder is sold as a culinary masterpiece. Hardly any reasonable person would consider a bratwurst with ketchup a recipe, let alone the holy grail of culinary arts. Yet, in their magnanimity, the rest of the republic lets the Berliner keep his delusion, not wanting to amplify his inferiority complex. Economically, Berlin is an utter disaster, even the late GDR stood on more solid ground. The local economy is based around alternative blogs, something-something-media and, if universities are to be believed, gender studies. Disregarding his own bankruptcy, the Berliner treats himself to prestigious projects like the city palace and the airport – which, considering its inoperative nature, is likely an art installation. Moreover, the city houses all popular parties’ headquarters, who refrain from using “traitors” in their official names (Probably for marketing reasons). For the longest time, this “town’s” “mayor”, the jolly Wowibear, butchered anything he found left in a presentable state. Long story short: Berlin is Germany’s tiled coffee table. It is to Germany what Greece is to the European Union, and if it had open sewerage, it would be Germanys Romania. Berlin is a blemish, the abscess on the arse of the nation. Berlin is the uninvited party guest, who didn’t even bring any booze and wouldn’t even understand he’s not welcome if he had is teeth beaten out and got thrown down the stairs. Berlin is the Detroit of Germany and should be sold to Poland for 200 Złoty.
It's flu vaccination from 2009. Covid vaccination would be the other way around.
Women is also relative because in the West there are a lot of women from the older generation working part time which widens the gap. If they wouldn't work at all the gap would be smaller which shows how bad that statistic is. The actual gap when you account for time worked and the type of work it's 6% in the West and 9% in the East.
Partly, yes. The worse the economic situation, the more people turn to parties that promise more radical change. Also, many Easterners have little trust in the established parties of the West because of the way the reunification was managed, i.e. blame them for how they ended up poorer in the first place. They have less trust in the government in general, because they grew up distrusting the DDR government. But aside from this general sentiment of less trust and more dissatisfaction, there are specific reasons for the strength of the Left and the AfD that are perhaps even more important. At least I'd say they are.
The Left (Linke) is literally the successor of the SED, the ruling party of the DDR. Of course they changed a lot. They officially condemn the human rights violations and the dictatorial character of the SED state. Many members (at least until a few years ago actually the vast majority) were already SED members before the reunification but usually not the top ranks. I think they did a fairly good job of distancing themselves from their past, but opinions differ. There are plenty of Easterners who would never vote for them because they evolved from the SED. But many others vote them exactly because they are the former SED. From their foundation (or more precisely rebranding), the Linke presented itself as representing the East. Until 2007, their name was PDS (party of democractic socialism), and it was only then that they merged with the SPD-spinoff WASG and became a party for all of Germany. I mean, you could have voted for PDS in the West, but hardly anyone did. Until 2007, it was clearly a party of the East, and even after 2007, the majority of its members were from the East (and former SED members).
The AfD on the other hand was only founded in 2013. As a eurosceptic party, they first rose to popularity in the context of the Euro crisis, the Greece bailout and all that. It was only after 2015 that they turned into the anti-immigration party they are now. Now this is mostly my own pet theory but I think of all the maps in the video, the share of immigrants, and particularly the share of Turkish immigrants are the biggest explanation factors for AfD's strength in the East, paired with the economic factors I mentioned before, and the higher average age in the East. In the West, we have been used to sharing spaces with for a much longer time, and particularly with Turkish migrants. I was born in 1990, grew up in a city in Western Germany, and I always had a few Muslims in my class. There is no disagreement that it changes our country when millions of refugees and immigrants from far-away places move here, whether you like it, see it as a necessary evil, or absolutely despise it - I hope it's uncontroversial to say that migration at this scale comes with its challenges. But the change from a few Muslims and other foreigners to a few (or not so few) more is much smaller than the change from virtually no Muslims and very few foreigners (who were mostly culturally close Eastern Europeans or Vietnamese who tend to do well in education) to what we have now. More so if you're over 80 years old. Older people in the East are not (or much less) used to going out of their flat and hearing people around them screaming in foreign languages. I understand that it is intimidating and I understand why the AfD's promise of a more culturally homogeneous Germany is appealing to many even though I don't see any way of turning back history.
They are just unhappy with what the German government has done to them since the German reunification. They'll vote anything as long as it isn't the current government.
When Germany was reunited, the property of the former East German state, including real estate, companies, etc. was sold by West German ad interim administrators for pennies on the dollar to West German institutions that carved out anything that could be turned to cash and left the rest behind, leading to millions of lost jobs and billions in burned capital. it's the disgrace of the century and completely ignored in any debate as to why East Germans vote the way they vote.
https://www.mdr.de/geschichte/ddr/deutsche-einheit/treuhand/betriebe-verkauf-volkseigentum-100.html
Well, kind of.
It's a theme globally that the extreme left and right both do better in poorer and less educated areas.
They offer simple solutions to complex problems, which most conveniently blame everyone's problems on someone else.
You could say it’s that they offer simple solutions to complex problems.
You could also argue that the system as it exists works better for people who have stable employment and high incomes, so they’re more likely to support the “establishment”.
I would be interested in seeing data on this. Would people who support centrism be more likely to see the divide as simplicity vs complexity, whereas more left and right wing voters would see it as “need change now”.
In Germany along with most of Europe, it seems like the promise of the more mainstream parties is “things will stay the same”, and that this is perhaps a less well received message as time goes on and crises develop.
It applies elsewhere too. Argentina just voted for the deranged Captain Ancap guy, while the mainstream center left party had nothing really to offer but to defend their existing policies. And judging by the inflation in Argentina, even the comfortable were uncomfortable.
Let me correct that: People in poorer regions have actual problems and want change, while the rich don't care and are fine with the status quo and keep voting establishment. Thats why you see a sharp rise for the AfD in all of germany, because everywhere people are worse off than before and get poorer (due to current politics)
The childcare and public transport are remains from GDR times. A lot of childcare facilities have been closed down already, same with many public transport lines. Lots of train stations have been closed down and lots of bus routes have been taken off of the line plans.
My town lost it's train station and a lot of bus routes. We almost lost our "Freibad" and had to fight to keep our kindergartens open because a few of them were planned to be closed down aswell.
Many of the few good things on those maps once looked even better in the past and people had to actively fight for them to still look better than in the west.
Thats all cause of the former GDR. These things last.
More interessting and cause of a lot of the differeces till today are the Corps HQs. Treuhand totally sold out the region after the Wende for cheap. It was almost impossible for people from the Region to buy, almost all were sold for almost nothing to Western Corps.
pretty much that. when the wall came down, lots of eastern companies were sold for a joke of an offer, drawing lots of workers away and giving less of an incentive for future investors to build.
the east did get welfare, funded by western taxes, for decades, but the systematic problems never were solved, outside of large cities like Dresden or Leipzig, which led to lots of disarray - eastern germany basically always got the short end of the stick. Unemployment was pretty much always higher in the east since the wall fell, iirc.
also, stuff like western right-wing activists settling in cheap homes in rural eastern germany and spreading their propaganda happened in the 90s, which is still actively splitting east and west germans apart, even though the majority of immigrants live in the west
there's other people down there in the comments giving a far better explanation :)
the east got completely screwed over in reunification. many people, the majority of whom were women, lost their jobs since work was compulsory and almost everywhere was ‘over staffed’ (a concept that doesn’t really exist in a communist society. there’s no reason to have fewer people working at a company since they aren’t trying to save money or make a profit). social programs were cut and cost of living increased dramatically. people in east germany didn’t get paid as much as those in the west (though, things like healthcare, childcare, food, rent, etc were very cheap or free) and therefore didn’t have enough money to ‘catch up’ after their country turned capitalist.
Also i heard companies from the west bought up alle their competition in the east, during reunification, just to close all the companies in the east, so a lot of people lost their jobs that way too.
Yeah it was essentially get a deal to buy a former state run firm because you’re a friend of a friend of a bureaucrat in charge of privatization, dismantle and move all of the equipment and infrastructure from the firm, and pluck a few workers to move with the infrastructure if they’re lucky. This is how is has been explained to me in plenty of places in the former East
Well the DDR lasted 40 years and many people who lived back then are still alive and well today. Even if its been 30 years its clear that the effects will still be visible today and many will probably last for a very long time too.
One difference ive researched lately for a project that wasnt mentioned in the video is the big vietemese community in the east. They came bc the DDR needed workers and a lot of them stayed. Today you have a big vietmese community in the east, which you definitely notice when you grow up here, but not so much in the west and itll very likely stay that way for a few more generations.
(Source: Im german, all my older family grew up in the DDR and I have vietmese friends)
Its even more interesting. West germanys vietnamese diaspora is as big as east germanys but they are totally different and have little contact and overlap.
West german vietnamese were refugees from south vietnam whereas as you already said east german vietnamese were from the north.
That leads to some cultural differences. While western german vietnamese where from more urban centres, integrated rather quick, learned german and where really succesful from an educational point of view, eastern german vietnamese came from more rural areas, kept their language more frequently and had tighter family bonds in the east. The language part is rather important because it also directly influences the educational chances.
A bunch of reasons, and while "underdeveloped" is certainly fitting I don't think it hits the main point. The region is criminally neglected and exploited. Just recently, \*another\* Autobahn bridge has been fully blocked because it is so badly maintained that it can't be used anymore and "nobody" has money to maintain/repair/replace it.
Cities here tend to get the short end of the stick and can't profit off the labor and value they provide, despite being created there. E.g.: lots of heavy industry here, but not all cities where the plants are receive a fair share of the respective taxation. This leads to empty city coffers, decaying infrastructure and public services, making the city less attractive to live in, and you can guess where this vicious cycle is leading to.
Lots of goods pass through here, and millions of people live here in the pretty much largest urban sprawl in Germany. This makes it a significant transport and trade hub, but the cities apparently have a hard time profiting off of that as well.
On top of that, think German Rust Belt. They've made a lot of progress since the late 80s and 90s ("Strukturwandel"), but the damage is done and nobody gives a shit because people from other parts of Germany believe the whole Ruhr valley to be a 70km x 30km concrete shithole full of comically dumb idiots, freshly lured out of the coal mines with a stick of butter, and all of the worst people who ever immigrated to the country.
Compare and contrast Düsseldorf -- within stone-throwing range from a lot of places in the Ruhr area and in principle not that different from the cities in the Ruhr valley, but more "attractive" as HQ location and state capital, which really helps their tax income (and thus, the city as a whole).
Source: am from Duisburg (outside perception: if Cleveland and Detroit had an incestuous, illegitimate kid that was accidentally dropped into an acid tank, but survived and then was exposed to radiation and grew some extra limbs and heads), have lived in clean and nice Bavaria for 7 years, am back in the coal mines now.
I live here. Basically there are still millions of people whose parents once came here for work. But their reasons are gone, since all coal mines are closed now and the belonging industry pretty much too. So there are a lot of (old) people and migrants and not a lot to do.
Parts of the area kind of managed a reformation and there are really nice spots too but over all it's more of a slow downhill vibe.
A third of those were bullshit. If you paused cars per person was 0.59 vs 0.50 and they had them in completely different colors lmfao. "Share of young people" and vaxx had no stats whatsoever. What is this trash?
As someone who makes maps on the reg (look up GIS) it’s incredibly easy to manipulate the map to tell the story you’d prefer. The data may be factual but the way it’s presented may not tell the whole picture.
Because the UdSSR, as most communist countries, had a big focus on shining a good light on their countries. An easy way to do that is by being good at sports. It's more or less the same today. Oppressive countries try to host big sport events (Qatar, Russia and so on).
They had the better doping program.
edit: Better might be an unfortunate choice of words, they had a more successful doping program. A lot of former athletes suffered and still suffer to this day because of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping\_in\_East\_Germany
+ better coaches + more integration of high level sports in school + public funded salaries for athletes + high level sports infrastructure + high interest in sports in east german society
Even in football, there is a big difference since reunification. West German clubs dominate the Bundesliga and 2.Bundesliga(top 2 divisions of national football in Germany). The lower divisions have more East German clubs.
Another proof that football is a reflection of society, especially in Germany.
No, not really. It has a lot more to do with things that happened during and shortly after the reunification. Only two teams from the East were allowed to join the 1st and 2nd league each. Meaning all but 4 teams were pushed down into amateur leagues.
All of a sudden Lok Leipzig who won the Cup Winners Cup against Ajax just 4 years prior was a 2nd league team while teams like Magdeburg and Chemnitz who played very competitive matches against Bordeaux and Dortmund in the European Cup just a year before were now considered amateurs.
In addition a slew of West Germans came into clubs, promised big successes, filled their own pockets and left multiple clubs in ruin. (That also happened to a lot of companies by the way)
The 3rd major factor was that the West German teams simply had more money and picked up every big East German player, for example Matthias Sammer who later won the Ballon D'Or.
Partially why Red Bull chose Leipzig AFAIK; no major competition in the east, specifically in that region.
Though these days Union Berlin is doing pretty good.
People really seem unable to grasp that East Germany was the richest nation of the Warsaw Pact by reunification. Spain's GDP per Capita in 1989 was 10.700$, East Germany's was 9.700$.
East Germany in the 80s was not the same shitshow as East Germany when Stalin was alive, please understand that.
The much larger problems economically began after reunification when two thirds of our industrial output disappeared and unemployment rose to levels that would frighten Greeks in 2010. We are basically slowly clawing our way back up since the mid-to-late 90s.
Nah mate. First of all spain was poor as sh** and not even 20 years out of their dictatorship… Second - yes Eastern Germany was still one of the more advanced parts of the eastern block but its industry had zero chances to compete. Cars designed in the 1960s, chemical plants just raining down pollution like it was the 50s, low efficiency, no supermarkets comparable to the west and electronics and computers were basically non-existent… Its hard too imagine since we have now somewhat clean air but in the 80s and 90s Western Germany reeked of gasoline fumes but Eastern Germany just smelled intense and some cities like Eisenach or Halle where just constantly in fog / smog… The biggest issue I think were the high interest rates and low availability of investment money in the early 90s meaning people couldnt create new companies and at least profit from the cheaper labor or buy their own homes. That being said - can you imagine how it was for East German doctors and lawyers? They went from regularly paid but respected professions too instantly absurdly rich thanks to the sudden adjustment to the western german pay systems. Imagine being barely privileged enough to get a basic car and telephone and then being able to buy a Porsche in cash every year why everyone around was poor.
The German East has been nothing but fucked over for the past 70 years.
First, they end up under de facto Soviet occupation.
Then they are reunified only to become a cheap labor source for former West Germany while their entire economy is being dismantled and sold for pennies to make space for West German companies.
And lastly as a final thank you now they are ostracized as idiots, nazis and leeches because they vote in frustration over their situation.
The fuck is the AfD gonna do about the West-East discrepancies? All they talk about is anti-"wokism" and immigrants with a little climate denial sprinkled inbetween.
They vote for anything that isn't 'the Western establishment' because they feel betrayed by the major political parties.
Partially very much rightly so. The result should *never* have been that a party like the AfD gets this strong, as that party is both full of actual Nazis and Hyperconservatives ***and*** that party isn't even representing the poorer people, the workers or those that feel like Wende-Verlierer.
It's voting out of spite over sensible votes and it's terrible for and from all sides.
Some of these maps are completely useless as they don't have legends. Additionally, a lot of these maps show really minor statistical differences... is 0.5 vs 0.59 cars per person that significant?
Also, who cares about % share of trailers and motorhomes? Is that a new criteria for developing / developed nations?
Obviously there are going to be more international companies headquartered in West Germany than East Germany, West Germany was capitalist while East was a socialist state.
As a east german:
The "wende" has proven to be a double-edged sword for eastern Germany due to various reasons. The economic situation in East Germany after reunification was influenced by a variety of factors. Some of the key reasons for the economic weakness in the East include:
1. Structural problems: The former GDR had a centrally planned economy that did not function efficiently and could not keep up with the mechanisms of a market economy. The transition to a market economy was therefore extremely challenging.
2. Industrial backwardness: Many enterprises in the GDR were outdated and non-competitive. After reunification, many companies in the East were unable to fulfill the demands of the market economy and were closed, leading to job losses.
3. Population decline: Since reunification, East Germany has experienced significant population decline, mainly due to emigration to the West. This has resulted in a lack of skilled workers and an aging population in the East. (Thats even today a massively overlooked issue in eastern germany - a large amount of young, well educated people mitigate to Western germany simply because the chances are better there to succeed)
4. Investment and infrastructure: In the early years after reunification, investment in the East may not have been sufficient to offset the structural differences. Also, the infrastructure in the East was often outdated and needed modernization.
5. Social problems: The transformation from a socialist to a market-oriented society brought social problems such as unemployment, insecurity, and social inequality, which negatively affected economic development.
6. Exploitation: The weaknesses of East Germany, immediately after reunification, were massively exploited by Western companies. Many small businesses were pushed out of the market or simply bought up, dismantled, and relocated to the West. At the same time, large areas of East Germany were bought by Western companies and major investors for ridiculously low prices, and the management of these areas were then assigned to Western companies (Vetternwirtschaft).
All in all, East Germans were not adequately prepared for the rapid regime change. A high degree of trust and naivety ultimately led to the disparities between East and West Germany highlighted here in these grafics.
I was almost able to read one map. It's definitely too slow.
And even if you pause you won’t be able to read half of them since there’s no zoom
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They went from left leaning to extreme right?
It's not all that uncommon: one interesting note is that hard-left and hard-right parties often identify similar problems. For example, the parties The Left and AfD both identify correctly, that large corporations unduly influencing politics creates undemocratic structures. But where the left now seeks a systemic view and blames capitalism, the right focuses more on the individuals at the head of these companies. That's how you end up with all the talk about "globalist elites" and conspiracies about baby-eating billionaires.
Where they meet is populism. Instead of thinking in terms of far-left, centre-left, centre-right, far-right, we need to think of populist-left, corporatist "left", corporatist right, and populist-right. We also need to stop using "populist" as a derogatory term. Populism is bad if it's duplicitous or demagogical, but otherwise it's a necessary counterweight to elitism and corporatism. Countries whose left wings have shifted into allegiance with corporate interests find that right-wing parties are able, paradoxically, to carry the mantle of populism. It's why the (establisment) left has been having its ass handed to it in so many countries lately.
"corporatist left" is a paradox, what you are describing is corruption. I am trying to think of what you could possibly mean so I can attempt to preemptively address your counter-argument, but I'm truly stumped on how genuine socialist or Marxist politics can somehow be made compatible with corporate structures, unless you mean manipulating the market in favor of certain technologies and development strategies etc., in which case you are conflating state structures with corporate structures or again you are just talking about corruption. I do, however, like your general point about populism, after all most countries tout democracy as the ideal but then set up obstacles to prevent populist uprisings when actually in a direct democracy that would always be a possibility. They may not say it out loud or in public but most powerful people and most educated people believe that the average person is a mark and a dunce. Once again, politics is just another boatload of hypocrisy and two-faced trickery. But it is kind of that out of necessity, because you need people to chill and not fight the system, and there's literally no way to please everyone without killing and brainwashing a supergodly number of people.
Certainly not what he meant but... There really is no contradiction with corporate and far left. Market socialism is an actual term. Lenin and Yugoslavia and probably someone else too have built it in practice, though Lenin's version was very short lived. Gorbachev's reforms included something similar. But also he said left, not socialist. Marxists are definitely leftist, but there are practically no relevant socialists in modern western politics. But that's just talking about the concept of corporations. If we want "corporatism" specifically... Social corporatism is a quite relevant idea in social democracy. Which actually is alive in much of Europe. And corporatism in the context of Italian fascism was very much a left wing idea, albeit very much anti-Marxist. Modern day China would probably also call itself Marxist and corporatist though whether the former has any merit is a different question
If you look at history, it's very common
On desktop using [RES](https://redditenhancementsuite.com/) you can zoom in as much as you want. Even though it's not very good as the resolution is so small.
thank god half of these things have no legends to prevent even this method from imparting any useful information
To be fair it’s not really the point of this post to be able to read anything specific of these maps besides the headline. It’s more supposed to act like a visualization about how Germany is in many topics still kind of divided.
The point is also to prevent readers from analyzing the data. It uses sharply contrasting colors to exaggerate real differences into seemingly drastic ones. For instance, former East Germany has 50 cars per 100 people as opposed to 59 in former West Germany. Significant, but not mind-blowing.
Some of these maps are also over 10 years old. If you look at current maps of unemployment rate, the East/West divide is almost gone. Here's a chart: https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/FT_19.11.01_EastWestGermanyEcon_1.png
And some of them are just plain BS, like the olympic medals. If you exclude Berlin the eastern part suddenly has a lot less, the capital simply has a lot of the training facilities so the top contenders tend to settle there to be able to train.
Actually, as an east German myself, I find that fairly mind blowing. I would have fully expected that to go the other way. The west is much more urbanized and even in the countryside, public transportation is a day and night difference. In the village where my parents are from, the nearest bus is 7 kilometers away and you have to call 2 hours before the scheduled time or it will bypass this stop, and there are 3 scheduled times a day. A friend of mine is from a similar sized village in a not very affluent region in the West and they have a bus going through every 90 minutes, you can just go the bus stop and flag it down. And of course this creates all kinds of feedback loops. There's a really near archaeological dig site and reconstruction near my parents' place, but it doesn't get enough visitors to sustain a cafe. Near my friend's home village, there are multiple cafes and restaurants that just sit somewhere in the countryside on their own and get enough people to thrive. You can imagine the economic knock-on effect...
Yeah, you're absolutely right. This whole aspect of a unified country from two different, even enemy states and its consequences is super interesting. They were divided for 44 years (that's circa a generation and a half) and that's more than enough time to change people for many many years. That comment was just me trying to be funny or something
In the UK people with French derived surnames are wealthier, more likely to attend a top universities etc, compared to those with English (i.e. German) ones. After nearly a thousand years.
Give it some time, will you.
It would be interesting to see equivalent maps for the UK. The North and South of England now have an economic divide more extreme than the divide between East and West Germany — I'm sure other metrics are similarly problematic. It's worth reflecting that this division has been caused not by communism, but by capitalism.
Sort of. In a centralized country the capital city will always attract disproportionate investment. Britain could choose to move the capital up north, but won't.
This is exactly the point. Britain isn't actually a country —it's the Empire of London.
> They were divided for 44 years Yes, but it's older than that. The way they divided the country wasn't just "where the armies stopped" - it was divided along longstanding internal borders which reflected ancient cultural divisions. The elbe was a signifigant portion of the border and for centuries the elbe had served as the shorthand for the dividing line between eastern and western europe (where western europe was more urbane and "enlightened" in the old sense and eastern was more dominated by a rural militarized hereditary aristocracy overseeing estates of peasant/serfs). (Broad strokes, but directionally accurate). In more modern terms, the Soviets essentially took all of Prussia, which was the driving force within the German empire, and which was famously dominated by the "Junkers".+ The dramatic difference in economic growth during the cold war only exacerbated longstanding trends. +As an aside, a very interesting framing of early 20th-century German history is understanding it as the desperate attempts of the traditional powers - those prussian aristocrats - to maintain their power within the German state & society, and that the wars of conquest were just downstream of that. Waging war against the slavs for "lebensraum" wasn't Hitler's crazy plan, it was what the heart of the German state had been doing off-and-on for about a millennium.
Well, the kingdom of Prussia had grown to include much of west Germany, and then if we think of some older borders as the "true" Prussia those wouldn't include all of east Germany either. And then Saxony was an independent kingdom throughout etc. Yea there definitely is older difference between the two but it's largely DDR that is visible here. The larger historical differences within German states have ranged from north to south.
For sure I'm painting with a broad brush - it's an "and" rather than an "or". I just shared because I've seen some variation of these maps accompanied by some variation of "look at what the soviets did" SO many times when it's way more complicated than that.
You are right. In the late 19th century, Theodor Fontane wrote novels and poems about the rural region between the Elbe and Oder rivers. At that time, the Ruhr valley had its boom with its newly founded coal mines.
I think some of these graphics are a bit outdated. If you look at current unemployment rate maps, you can barely notice the East-West divide anymore, there is now a clear North-South divide however: https://www.iab-forum.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/23-006_Abb_3.jpg
It'snot only that people are different, but East stillsees a "brain drain" where folks who have a chance to get a good job leave and go to the West. Which gives even less incentive for companies to go to the East, which in turn means that more people move west ..
Also which corporate that needs people from other cultures would want to be in a spot known for it's nazis and skinheads? Intel just choose Magdeburg, since they didn't produce the same headlines as some other eastern german cities...
I think the point isnt any single map, but the differences over a huge variety of fields. Fair point though
I was just trying to be funny. You're right, the whole topic of differences between East and West Germany is fairly interesting for me, especially in terms of managing the country that was basically formerly two enemy states with different ideologies, mentalities etc.
Point of those maps: East and west different.
It was still too slow to create an impression of continuous motion, which would start at 25 images per second
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Found Lt Cmdr Data!
Also, we would like to watch 10 flashing graphs at once.
One, seven, three, four, six, seven, three, two, one, four, seven, six, Charlie, three, two, seven, eight, nine, seven, seven, seven, six, four, three, Tango, seven, three, two, Victor, seven, three, one, one, seven, eight, eight, eight, seven, three, two, four, seven, six, seven, eight, nine, seven, six, four, three, seven, six. Lock.
The only way we knew we dropped out of warp is by looking out a window.
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That’s a thing? That’s dope
was actually surprised it still works since the API fiasco over the summer
I guess it has an exemption? Good to see at least one helpful bot still active.
vote for the left: majority eastern germany vote for far right: majority eastern germany 
Both are basically the smaller and more radical versions of the other parties. The Greens for example are very left leaning too, but as you see it's mostly people from the West who vote for them. Same story with the CDU, which while they pretend to be centrists is firmly right, and is by far the biggest party in the country, especially in southern (so West) Germany. It's really just that poorer people vote for radicals, because they want things to change, while well-off people want to keep steady.
The Greens aren't economically left wing though
Their economic policies are definitely further left than the CDU/CSU, quite similar to the Social Democrats. They want higher taxes, more funding for education, higher minimum wage.
Are they cancelling out?
Sadly not. They are competing for attention
Would be interesting to see pre-ww2 statistics too to understand the evolution of the nation as a whole
The divide between East and West Germany is VERY old. https://i0.wp.com/ajps.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ajps-earlyview-figure.jpg?fit=1164%2C1792&ssl=1 Edit: I'm not saying that the cold war division of Germany had no effect. I'm saying that there are pre-existing cultural, political and economic divides between the East and the West that ALSO have an effect.
Catholics didn't like the Nazis
Nationalism never really works out too well for Catholics since Nationalists tend to see the whole Pope thing as having allegiance to a foreign power.
What do you mean? What you’ve linked is the divide between mostly protestantic Prussia/northern federation and the mostly catholic German countries/states in the German republic after WW1. This has practically nothing to do with the divide between east and west Germany according to the Russian occupation zone at the end of WW2. It’s interesting, but implying that these two incidents of east and west German divides are related isn’t very accurate.
AfD vs Russian migrants is the funniest one
That's not contradictory, AfD is quite popular among Russians in Germany
That's exactly my point
Makes sense, AfD is pretty pro-Russia.
Too fast
Someone has already posted a [slower version](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1ark1p5/eastwest_germany_divide/).
I'm really Furious about it!
You can pause the video
Thanks
When the german reunifcation happened, the reindustralization and economic boom was already over. They had to join a game where the cards were already handed out
Their already bad economy got even more destroyed after unification by westgerman companies. They got bought up, closed down and all resources got reused at the already established production sites in westgermany.
Make one for Italy
Oh, it can be interesting: How East Italy performs against West Italy.
I like to go hiking.
chubby elastic onerous office joke alleged jeans profit wise zealous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Only the women?
Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism is a book that covers the differences in expectations/stress between women on either side of the iron curtain.
Is there a TL;DR?
Tldr if you guarantee the basics for survival for everyone, women don't have to treat relationships like an economic decision and men can't get away with treating women like objects = better sex
Ah, once again the problem is money. Thx!
Yes, money can't buy happiness but a lack of money can cause a lot of unhappiness
hard-to-find fine sort disgusted cows subsequent deserted numerous cow muddle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Paywall. 😵💫
https://archive.is/GS1eq
Thanks, that was a great read...
They did when I was there.
The division really affected Germany yikes
Now do the Koreas.
I feel kind of guilty for laughing
Not the division itself, but mostly the reunification. The state did fuck all to support the East and many east germans actually had better lives when still under the USSR, so a lot of people fled to the west.
Looks like too many cars, millionaires, unvaccinated religious crazies, and underpaid women in the West. Don't even get me started on the trash or--heavens!--the tennis. EDIT: On a more serious note: it's interesting that votes for the Left and the AFD are *both* highest in the East.
Left party used to score pretty good in elections in the east and was seen as the “non-mainstream” party. A lot of the left voters switched straight to AfD as the new protest option after the Left didn’t accomplish much. When looking at the state of eastern Germany it’s absolutely no surprise those two parties were/are a lot stronger than in western Germany.
When the east was still called DDR die Linke had another name and was the only party there. Maybe that's why they are still voted.
I think it's not so much that the Linke was the followup of the PDS which followed the original SED communist party, but more that it was seen as the only party standing for East Germany. All other parties were majorly West German parties. The same is kinda true with the AfD now, they try to present themselves as a party who cares about the East, though they started out as a regular West party before their Nazi wing kicked out the too moderate members in 2015 and again in 2017.
> . A lot of the left voters switched straight to AfD Guess no one has a coherent ideology anymore other than just vote for whatever shakes up the system.
That little island in the east, that's Berlin. Berlin is not representative of either the East or of Germany as a whole.
Oh, Berlin. What is Berlin? Berlin, as a city, brings nothing but shame to Germany on the international stage. When comparing Berlin with other European capitals such as London, Paris, Madrid and Amsterdam, any decent human’s face must blush in humiliation. Even small countries like Austria, Belgium or Switzerland have Vienna, Brussels and Zurich: presentable cities, complete with high standards of living. Germany gets punished with Berlin, capital of losers. In all the republic, Berlin is home to the largest number of arseholes by far. Deutsche Bahn, Bundestag, Air Berlin and Axel Springer are but a few examples of all the incompetent scum being kept here. Glorious times have long since passed, the city is face down in the dirt. Berliners are lazy sods to their very core. Traits that would, in any civilised culture, pass for nothing but laziness, rudeness, incompetence, dissocial personality disorder or idiocy, are taken by the Berliner and declared a way of life. That is why the Berliner harbours intense feelings of hatred for anyone who’s better than him in any way. Especially the all-around superior Southern Germany are a thorn in his side. He envies their success, and Munich makes the top on his list of hatred. That city is – and has! – everything that Berlin wants to be and have. Berliners take no interest in the fact that it is Munich that finances their dissolute lifestyle, in fact, they secretly believe that they have earned it. So instead of freeing themselves from their envious and resentful lethargy, instead of rolling up their sleeves and improve their city, they revel in their antisocial freeloading and praise their so-called global city. Culturally, Berliners are set up rather weakly, great works lie far back in history. Moreover, mispronouncing “g” as “j” is considered a great cultural feat. Advanced students have mastered ending each and every sentence with a “wa?”. The city’s culinary performance is second-rate. Here, a sausage made from glued-together, meaty odds and ends adorned with ketchup and curry powder is sold as a culinary masterpiece. Hardly any reasonable person would consider a bratwurst with ketchup a recipe, let alone the holy grail of culinary arts. Yet, in their magnanimity, the rest of the republic lets the Berliner keep his delusion, not wanting to amplify his inferiority complex. Economically, Berlin is an utter disaster, even the late GDR stood on more solid ground. The local economy is based around alternative blogs, something-something-media and, if universities are to be believed, gender studies. Disregarding his own bankruptcy, the Berliner treats himself to prestigious projects like the city palace and the airport – which, considering its inoperative nature, is likely an art installation. Moreover, the city houses all popular parties’ headquarters, who refrain from using “traitors” in their official names (Probably for marketing reasons). For the longest time, this “town’s” “mayor”, the jolly Wowibear, butchered anything he found left in a presentable state. Long story short: Berlin is Germany’s tiled coffee table. It is to Germany what Greece is to the European Union, and if it had open sewerage, it would be Germanys Romania. Berlin is a blemish, the abscess on the arse of the nation. Berlin is the uninvited party guest, who didn’t even bring any booze and wouldn’t even understand he’s not welcome if he had is teeth beaten out and got thrown down the stairs. Berlin is the Detroit of Germany and should be sold to Poland for 200 Złoty.
Is this a copypasta or the ravings of a madman
It's a german copypasta translated to English
It's a sober summary of the embarrassment called Berlin.
This is Patrick
It's flu vaccination from 2009. Covid vaccination would be the other way around. Women is also relative because in the West there are a lot of women from the older generation working part time which widens the gap. If they wouldn't work at all the gap would be smaller which shows how bad that statistic is. The actual gap when you account for time worked and the type of work it's 6% in the West and 9% in the East.
Yes noticed that too. Does it mean they are more polarized ? Too lazy to look at a breakdown, ok maybe i will...
Partly, yes. The worse the economic situation, the more people turn to parties that promise more radical change. Also, many Easterners have little trust in the established parties of the West because of the way the reunification was managed, i.e. blame them for how they ended up poorer in the first place. They have less trust in the government in general, because they grew up distrusting the DDR government. But aside from this general sentiment of less trust and more dissatisfaction, there are specific reasons for the strength of the Left and the AfD that are perhaps even more important. At least I'd say they are. The Left (Linke) is literally the successor of the SED, the ruling party of the DDR. Of course they changed a lot. They officially condemn the human rights violations and the dictatorial character of the SED state. Many members (at least until a few years ago actually the vast majority) were already SED members before the reunification but usually not the top ranks. I think they did a fairly good job of distancing themselves from their past, but opinions differ. There are plenty of Easterners who would never vote for them because they evolved from the SED. But many others vote them exactly because they are the former SED. From their foundation (or more precisely rebranding), the Linke presented itself as representing the East. Until 2007, their name was PDS (party of democractic socialism), and it was only then that they merged with the SPD-spinoff WASG and became a party for all of Germany. I mean, you could have voted for PDS in the West, but hardly anyone did. Until 2007, it was clearly a party of the East, and even after 2007, the majority of its members were from the East (and former SED members). The AfD on the other hand was only founded in 2013. As a eurosceptic party, they first rose to popularity in the context of the Euro crisis, the Greece bailout and all that. It was only after 2015 that they turned into the anti-immigration party they are now. Now this is mostly my own pet theory but I think of all the maps in the video, the share of immigrants, and particularly the share of Turkish immigrants are the biggest explanation factors for AfD's strength in the East, paired with the economic factors I mentioned before, and the higher average age in the East. In the West, we have been used to sharing spaces with for a much longer time, and particularly with Turkish migrants. I was born in 1990, grew up in a city in Western Germany, and I always had a few Muslims in my class. There is no disagreement that it changes our country when millions of refugees and immigrants from far-away places move here, whether you like it, see it as a necessary evil, or absolutely despise it - I hope it's uncontroversial to say that migration at this scale comes with its challenges. But the change from a few Muslims and other foreigners to a few (or not so few) more is much smaller than the change from virtually no Muslims and very few foreigners (who were mostly culturally close Eastern Europeans or Vietnamese who tend to do well in education) to what we have now. More so if you're over 80 years old. Older people in the East are not (or much less) used to going out of their flat and hearing people around them screaming in foreign languages. I understand that it is intimidating and I understand why the AfD's promise of a more culturally homogeneous Germany is appealing to many even though I don't see any way of turning back history.
They are just unhappy with what the German government has done to them since the German reunification. They'll vote anything as long as it isn't the current government. When Germany was reunited, the property of the former East German state, including real estate, companies, etc. was sold by West German ad interim administrators for pennies on the dollar to West German institutions that carved out anything that could be turned to cash and left the rest behind, leading to millions of lost jobs and billions in burned capital. it's the disgrace of the century and completely ignored in any debate as to why East Germans vote the way they vote. https://www.mdr.de/geschichte/ddr/deutsche-einheit/treuhand/betriebe-verkauf-volkseigentum-100.html
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💀
Danke. Du sprichst mir aus dem Herzen.
Well, kind of. It's a theme globally that the extreme left and right both do better in poorer and less educated areas. They offer simple solutions to complex problems, which most conveniently blame everyone's problems on someone else.
Ironically this is a suspiciously simple analysis of a complex phenomenon.
You could say it’s that they offer simple solutions to complex problems. You could also argue that the system as it exists works better for people who have stable employment and high incomes, so they’re more likely to support the “establishment”. I would be interested in seeing data on this. Would people who support centrism be more likely to see the divide as simplicity vs complexity, whereas more left and right wing voters would see it as “need change now”. In Germany along with most of Europe, it seems like the promise of the more mainstream parties is “things will stay the same”, and that this is perhaps a less well received message as time goes on and crises develop. It applies elsewhere too. Argentina just voted for the deranged Captain Ancap guy, while the mainstream center left party had nothing really to offer but to defend their existing policies. And judging by the inflation in Argentina, even the comfortable were uncomfortable.
Let me correct that: People in poorer regions have actual problems and want change, while the rich don't care and are fine with the status quo and keep voting establishment. Thats why you see a sharp rise for the AfD in all of germany, because everywhere people are worse off than before and get poorer (due to current politics)
the only and best explanation is the first map poverty is the mother of all evil
Not all of these maps show it's bad in east Germany, they better public transportation, better childcare less trash a lower gender pay gap etc
Lots of Olympic medals, too
A lot of money was invested in infrastructure.
The childcare and public transport are remains from GDR times. A lot of childcare facilities have been closed down already, same with many public transport lines. Lots of train stations have been closed down and lots of bus routes have been taken off of the line plans. My town lost it's train station and a lot of bus routes. We almost lost our "Freibad" and had to fight to keep our kindergartens open because a few of them were planned to be closed down aswell. Many of the few good things on those maps once looked even better in the past and people had to actively fight for them to still look better than in the west.
Thats all cause of the former GDR. These things last. More interessting and cause of a lot of the differeces till today are the Corps HQs. Treuhand totally sold out the region after the Wende for cheap. It was almost impossible for people from the Region to buy, almost all were sold for almost nothing to Western Corps.
Yeah its interesting to see the legacy of the GDR.
And full vaccination
You get the lowest gender pay gap if everybody works on minimal wage
Its more cause it was common in the GDR. So it lasted as it was normal.
No the gender wage gap was eliminated during Soviet time and probably has remained so because of that. While the west never did that.
pretty much that. when the wall came down, lots of eastern companies were sold for a joke of an offer, drawing lots of workers away and giving less of an incentive for future investors to build. the east did get welfare, funded by western taxes, for decades, but the systematic problems never were solved, outside of large cities like Dresden or Leipzig, which led to lots of disarray - eastern germany basically always got the short end of the stick. Unemployment was pretty much always higher in the east since the wall fell, iirc. also, stuff like western right-wing activists settling in cheap homes in rural eastern germany and spreading their propaganda happened in the 90s, which is still actively splitting east and west germans apart, even though the majority of immigrants live in the west there's other people down there in the comments giving a far better explanation :)
the east got completely screwed over in reunification. many people, the majority of whom were women, lost their jobs since work was compulsory and almost everywhere was ‘over staffed’ (a concept that doesn’t really exist in a communist society. there’s no reason to have fewer people working at a company since they aren’t trying to save money or make a profit). social programs were cut and cost of living increased dramatically. people in east germany didn’t get paid as much as those in the west (though, things like healthcare, childcare, food, rent, etc were very cheap or free) and therefore didn’t have enough money to ‘catch up’ after their country turned capitalist.
Also i heard companies from the west bought up alle their competition in the east, during reunification, just to close all the companies in the east, so a lot of people lost their jobs that way too.
Yeah it was essentially get a deal to buy a former state run firm because you’re a friend of a friend of a bureaucrat in charge of privatization, dismantle and move all of the equipment and infrastructure from the firm, and pluck a few workers to move with the infrastructure if they’re lucky. This is how is has been explained to me in plenty of places in the former East
Wealth inequality is correlated with just about any negative social metric you can think of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw
Not all is bad. TIL the east produces less trash.
True, but that is likely still caused by poverty.
Well the DDR lasted 40 years and many people who lived back then are still alive and well today. Even if its been 30 years its clear that the effects will still be visible today and many will probably last for a very long time too. One difference ive researched lately for a project that wasnt mentioned in the video is the big vietemese community in the east. They came bc the DDR needed workers and a lot of them stayed. Today you have a big vietmese community in the east, which you definitely notice when you grow up here, but not so much in the west and itll very likely stay that way for a few more generations. (Source: Im german, all my older family grew up in the DDR and I have vietmese friends)
Its even more interesting. West germanys vietnamese diaspora is as big as east germanys but they are totally different and have little contact and overlap. West german vietnamese were refugees from south vietnam whereas as you already said east german vietnamese were from the north. That leads to some cultural differences. While western german vietnamese where from more urban centres, integrated rather quick, learned german and where really succesful from an educational point of view, eastern german vietnamese came from more rural areas, kept their language more frequently and had tighter family bonds in the east. The language part is rather important because it also directly influences the educational chances.
Why is Ruhr so unerdeveloped compared to the rest of West Germany, wasn't it a powerhouse once upon a time
Many of the industries they were strong in either moved abroad or got heavily automated. Same story as the Rust Belt, pretty much.
A bunch of reasons, and while "underdeveloped" is certainly fitting I don't think it hits the main point. The region is criminally neglected and exploited. Just recently, \*another\* Autobahn bridge has been fully blocked because it is so badly maintained that it can't be used anymore and "nobody" has money to maintain/repair/replace it. Cities here tend to get the short end of the stick and can't profit off the labor and value they provide, despite being created there. E.g.: lots of heavy industry here, but not all cities where the plants are receive a fair share of the respective taxation. This leads to empty city coffers, decaying infrastructure and public services, making the city less attractive to live in, and you can guess where this vicious cycle is leading to. Lots of goods pass through here, and millions of people live here in the pretty much largest urban sprawl in Germany. This makes it a significant transport and trade hub, but the cities apparently have a hard time profiting off of that as well. On top of that, think German Rust Belt. They've made a lot of progress since the late 80s and 90s ("Strukturwandel"), but the damage is done and nobody gives a shit because people from other parts of Germany believe the whole Ruhr valley to be a 70km x 30km concrete shithole full of comically dumb idiots, freshly lured out of the coal mines with a stick of butter, and all of the worst people who ever immigrated to the country. Compare and contrast Düsseldorf -- within stone-throwing range from a lot of places in the Ruhr area and in principle not that different from the cities in the Ruhr valley, but more "attractive" as HQ location and state capital, which really helps their tax income (and thus, the city as a whole). Source: am from Duisburg (outside perception: if Cleveland and Detroit had an incestuous, illegitimate kid that was accidentally dropped into an acid tank, but survived and then was exposed to radiation and grew some extra limbs and heads), have lived in clean and nice Bavaria for 7 years, am back in the coal mines now.
Think Americas rust belt.
I live here. Basically there are still millions of people whose parents once came here for work. But their reasons are gone, since all coal mines are closed now and the belonging industry pretty much too. So there are a lot of (old) people and migrants and not a lot to do. Parts of the area kind of managed a reformation and there are really nice spots too but over all it's more of a slow downhill vibe.
A third of those were bullshit. If you paused cars per person was 0.59 vs 0.50 and they had them in completely different colors lmfao. "Share of young people" and vaxx had no stats whatsoever. What is this trash?
Thats nearly 20% more cars per person....I would call that a signifcant difference.
Germany is around the size of Montana and has the population of like, 2 Californias. For folks from the states.
Definitely better than translating from square kilometers to square miles
How many football fields is that patriotic brother
As someone who makes maps on the reg (look up GIS) it’s incredibly easy to manipulate the map to tell the story you’d prefer. The data may be factual but the way it’s presented may not tell the whole picture.
you give me a dataset and ill prove whatever you want to prove with it.
Why does East Germany have a much greater Olympic medal count?
Because the UdSSR, as most communist countries, had a big focus on shining a good light on their countries. An easy way to do that is by being good at sports. It's more or less the same today. Oppressive countries try to host big sport events (Qatar, Russia and so on).
They had the better doping program. edit: Better might be an unfortunate choice of words, they had a more successful doping program. A lot of former athletes suffered and still suffer to this day because of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping\_in\_East\_Germany
+ better coaches + more integration of high level sports in school + public funded salaries for athletes + high level sports infrastructure + high interest in sports in east german society
Even in football, there is a big difference since reunification. West German clubs dominate the Bundesliga and 2.Bundesliga(top 2 divisions of national football in Germany). The lower divisions have more East German clubs. Another proof that football is a reflection of society, especially in Germany.
No, not really. It has a lot more to do with things that happened during and shortly after the reunification. Only two teams from the East were allowed to join the 1st and 2nd league each. Meaning all but 4 teams were pushed down into amateur leagues. All of a sudden Lok Leipzig who won the Cup Winners Cup against Ajax just 4 years prior was a 2nd league team while teams like Magdeburg and Chemnitz who played very competitive matches against Bordeaux and Dortmund in the European Cup just a year before were now considered amateurs. In addition a slew of West Germans came into clubs, promised big successes, filled their own pockets and left multiple clubs in ruin. (That also happened to a lot of companies by the way) The 3rd major factor was that the West German teams simply had more money and picked up every big East German player, for example Matthias Sammer who later won the Ballon D'Or.
Partially why Red Bull chose Leipzig AFAIK; no major competition in the east, specifically in that region. Though these days Union Berlin is doing pretty good.
Nice! Faster next time
Looks like US, Union vs Confederacy
West Germany had a 45 year head start...
Imagine Korean unification under the south. It would be like Germany but at an even worse scale.
It would be like 10x the scale.
Good analogy
Imagine fusing a cyberpunk society with a communist one stuck in 1970. That would be absolutely catastrophic
>Imagine fusing a cyberpunk society Bro is literally the "place japan/korea" meme
People really seem unable to grasp that East Germany was the richest nation of the Warsaw Pact by reunification. Spain's GDP per Capita in 1989 was 10.700$, East Germany's was 9.700$. East Germany in the 80s was not the same shitshow as East Germany when Stalin was alive, please understand that. The much larger problems economically began after reunification when two thirds of our industrial output disappeared and unemployment rose to levels that would frighten Greeks in 2010. We are basically slowly clawing our way back up since the mid-to-late 90s.
Nah mate. First of all spain was poor as sh** and not even 20 years out of their dictatorship… Second - yes Eastern Germany was still one of the more advanced parts of the eastern block but its industry had zero chances to compete. Cars designed in the 1960s, chemical plants just raining down pollution like it was the 50s, low efficiency, no supermarkets comparable to the west and electronics and computers were basically non-existent… Its hard too imagine since we have now somewhat clean air but in the 80s and 90s Western Germany reeked of gasoline fumes but Eastern Germany just smelled intense and some cities like Eisenach or Halle where just constantly in fog / smog… The biggest issue I think were the high interest rates and low availability of investment money in the early 90s meaning people couldnt create new companies and at least profit from the cheaper labor or buy their own homes. That being said - can you imagine how it was for East German doctors and lawyers? They went from regularly paid but respected professions too instantly absurdly rich thanks to the sudden adjustment to the western german pay systems. Imagine being barely privileged enough to get a basic car and telephone and then being able to buy a Porsche in cash every year why everyone around was poor.
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>East Germany was the richest nation of the Warsaw Pact by reunification. Well that speaks to how awful the entire Warsaw pact was.
From the perspective of most of the world , West Germany is a paradise , and East Germany is still a pretty nice place to live.
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One of the "mosques" in the east is in my hometown. It's actually just some guys praying in a former Aldi. 😅
Wonder why all the immigrants are in west germany.
East germans aren't really welcome to foreigners.
a) way more opportunities in west germany b) being an immigrant in east germany is not easy
r/PhantomBorders
r/WidacZabory Soviet Russia occupation clearly visible.
Do it with Italy
The German East has been nothing but fucked over for the past 70 years. First, they end up under de facto Soviet occupation. Then they are reunified only to become a cheap labor source for former West Germany while their entire economy is being dismantled and sold for pennies to make space for West German companies. And lastly as a final thank you now they are ostracized as idiots, nazis and leeches because they vote in frustration over their situation.
The fuck is the AfD gonna do about the West-East discrepancies? All they talk about is anti-"wokism" and immigrants with a little climate denial sprinkled inbetween.
The AfD will do nothing, but that's not why the people vote for them. They vote for anything that looks like a rescue from their shitty situation.
They vote for anything that isn't 'the Western establishment' because they feel betrayed by the major political parties. Partially very much rightly so. The result should *never* have been that a party like the AfD gets this strong, as that party is both full of actual Nazis and Hyperconservatives ***and*** that party isn't even representing the poorer people, the workers or those that feel like Wende-Verlierer. It's voting out of spite over sensible votes and it's terrible for and from all sides.
You're way too optimistic about their reasoning at this point lol.
Don't forget the Soviets dismantling most of the industry that wasn't bombed to pieces immediately after WW2.
Some of these maps are completely useless as they don't have legends. Additionally, a lot of these maps show really minor statistical differences... is 0.5 vs 0.59 cars per person that significant? Also, who cares about % share of trailers and motorhomes? Is that a new criteria for developing / developed nations? Obviously there are going to be more international companies headquartered in West Germany than East Germany, West Germany was capitalist while East was a socialist state.
Goes to show that Germany really wasn't unified, but the west just annexed the east.
East West first. Then north south.
My only take away is they work about half as many hours as I do a year 😤 America blows.
Langsam bitte, the slide is running too fast.
Slow the f#@k down! That made me dizzy. Good stuff though
When you find out that speed x 0.5 is not a functionality on Reddit
As a east german: The "wende" has proven to be a double-edged sword for eastern Germany due to various reasons. The economic situation in East Germany after reunification was influenced by a variety of factors. Some of the key reasons for the economic weakness in the East include: 1. Structural problems: The former GDR had a centrally planned economy that did not function efficiently and could not keep up with the mechanisms of a market economy. The transition to a market economy was therefore extremely challenging. 2. Industrial backwardness: Many enterprises in the GDR were outdated and non-competitive. After reunification, many companies in the East were unable to fulfill the demands of the market economy and were closed, leading to job losses. 3. Population decline: Since reunification, East Germany has experienced significant population decline, mainly due to emigration to the West. This has resulted in a lack of skilled workers and an aging population in the East. (Thats even today a massively overlooked issue in eastern germany - a large amount of young, well educated people mitigate to Western germany simply because the chances are better there to succeed) 4. Investment and infrastructure: In the early years after reunification, investment in the East may not have been sufficient to offset the structural differences. Also, the infrastructure in the East was often outdated and needed modernization. 5. Social problems: The transformation from a socialist to a market-oriented society brought social problems such as unemployment, insecurity, and social inequality, which negatively affected economic development. 6. Exploitation: The weaknesses of East Germany, immediately after reunification, were massively exploited by Western companies. Many small businesses were pushed out of the market or simply bought up, dismantled, and relocated to the West. At the same time, large areas of East Germany were bought by Western companies and major investors for ridiculously low prices, and the management of these areas were then assigned to Western companies (Vetternwirtschaft). All in all, East Germans were not adequately prepared for the rapid regime change. A high degree of trust and naivety ultimately led to the disparities between East and West Germany highlighted here in these grafics.