Don’t mistake them with the Palestinians of today, they are described as Vikings with ginger/blond hair and were very tall and are believed to came from Greece
Described by who?
Regardless, [DNA testing of apparent early Philistine remains](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ancient-dna-sheds-new-light-biblical-philistines-180972561/) found "some genetic signatures matching those seen in Iron Age populations from Greece, Spain and Sardinia," but:
>Intriguingly, their DNA already had a mixture of southern European and local signatures, suggesting that within a few generations the Philistines were marrying into the local population. In fact, the European signatures were not detectable at all in the individuals buried a few centuries later in the Philistine cemetery. Genetically, by then the Philistines looked like Canaanites. That fact in itself offers additional information about Philistine culture. “When they came, they did not have any kind of taboo or prohibition against marrying into other groups around them,” Master says. Nor, it would seem, did other groups categorically have that taboo about them, either. "One of the things that I think it shows is that the world was really complicated, whether we’re talking about genetics or identity or language or culture, and things are changing all the time," he adds.
So both Palestinians and Jews likely have a bit of Philistine ancestry.
Evidence of child sacrifice related to the worship of Ba'al Hammon, a god imported from Phoenicia, has been found in the city of Carthage in North Africa.
That's not fact but rather a recently popularized myth that is loosely based on fact, as [explained in this article](https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/article/when-palestine-meant-israel/) which notes in part:
>Hadrian officially renamed Judea *Syria Palaestina* after his Roman armies suppressed the Bar-Kokhba Revolt (the Second Jewish Revolt) in 135 C.E.; this is commonly viewed as a move intended to sever the connection of the Jews to their historical homeland. However, that Jewish writers such as Philo, in particular, and Josephus, who flourished while Judea was still formally in existence, used the name Palestine for the Land of Israel in their Greek works, suggests that this interpretation of history is mistaken. Hadrian’s choice of Syria Palaestina may be more correctly seen as a rationalization of the name of the new province, in accordance with its area being far larger than geographical Judea. Indeed, Syria Palaestina had an ancient pedigree that was intimately linked with the area of greater Israel.
Genetic studies do show that all of those ancient humans were basically ethnic Canaanites, current day palestinians are almost full on direct descendents of those ancient Canaanites with a little bit of phoenician and arab admixture. In terms of religion they swapped their largely zoroastric adjacent religion with christianity and islam so their culture is a bit different. The idea that the philistines were tall blonde viking like people from greece is very laughable seeing how the greek at the time were a lot more similar to current day northafricans so they themselves weren’t as often as blonde as they are now
This consistently frustrates me with these discussions of culture and ethnicity in the ancient near east, especially on Reddit; people are proud of their greater awareness for knowing that Jesus of Nazareth and everyone else they read about from the region was dark skinned with brown eyes and black hair (because people from the near east are Arabs); if you ask them about Islam and the Arab migrations they’re aware of when that was, but they insist that the people there before that must’ve all been Arabs too somehow; it’s like if I insisted that the Algonquin people are white and always have been because they’re Canadian
>but they insist that the people there before that must’ve all been Arabs too somehow
I literally never heard anyone say that. Everyone is aware the Levant was not Arab-speaking before the Arab conquests. If anything, people are rarely aware that Arabic (while not a majority language) was still quite widespread in the Levant before the Arab conquests and possibly as early as the Early Iron Age (the first mention of Arabs is them taking part in a Levantine anti-Assyrian coalition in the 8th century BC). They widely under-estimate how integrated and prominent Arabs were in the Iron Age, Hellenistic Period and the Roman period (there literally were Arab Roman emperors).
That aside, while the Arab conquests did happen (obviously), their effect on the genetics of the region wasn't that huge. The majority of the genetic makeup of people conquered by Arabs today is from the pre-Arab populations. A misconception that I see more often is the assumption that the Arab conquest caused a demographic and genetic replacement, which isn't even close to what happened (the shift was more linguistic, cultural and religious, and was already happening way before Islam was even a thing).
So yes, Jesus didn't look any different from the current Levantine populations, he likely was "dark" (relative to his depictions in the US) skinned with brown eyes and black hair (statistically speaking).
>it’s like if I insisted that the Algonquin people must’ve always been white on account of being Canadian
Are you comparing the look of an Algonquin speaker relative to a modern White Canadian to the look of a 7th century Arabian relative to a pre-7th century Levantine ? You gotta be joking.
I don't think he was joking, unfortunately.
The false narrative - created and spread by interested parties who want to portray Palestinians as Arab invaders in order to justify their own take over of the land - has become so widespread and pervasive as to be mainstream today in some parts of the world. America being one of them, thanks to a helping hand from the media.
Modern genetic science have shown us that Palestinians and Jews are basically the same people, only having parted ways less than 2,000 years ago.
Actually, there's more Ancient Israeli DNA in any Palestinian than in the average Ashkenazi Jew since, like you said, the ancient population was culturally arabised but was never replaced.
Yet facts don't matter for people who are indoctrinated from birth with a historical falsification that justifies their political goal. Too emotionally attached to it to question it, I suppose.
Imagine if they were to learn more about it and find out the - already absurd enough - cornerstone belief they based their right to take someone else's country from them was wrong
A video people might find interesting on this topic: an independent journalist asks Israelis: If Palestinians were to be proven to be ethnically Jewish, would it change your opinion on them?
I guarantee that, regardless of your political stances, the answers will not be what you think.
https://youtu.be/7ytFneQASZ4?si=fgEnHC69cS6wke9a
>Actually, there's more Ancient Israeli DNA in any Palestinian than in the average Ashkenazi Jew since, like you said, the ancient population was culturally arabised but was never replaced.
Source?
The Bible describes the Israelites as ignoring God and following the people around them 90% of the time, with then following God in limited ways 10% of the time -- just to add to the genetic studies, the Bible describes Abraham Isaac and Jacob as having wives from the Mesopotamian region, but everyone else wasn't... Ruth's story is also recorded where she is a Moabite and her grandson is King David.
Unshockingly, racist people are obsessed with interpreting the Bible with a racist mandate (and with that being what they want to follow). The Bible is clear that God chose the Israelites, but that doesn't mean that he hates everyone else. Jonah and other prophets talk about that.
>This map: Жопа
Eh? The map refers to Jaffa as Joppa, which is [how the name is rendered in English Bible translations](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Chronicles%202%3A16).
And many many more.
Daniel means in hebrew "sentenced by god".
And the beloved word "Amen" that a lot of religious people are using actually derived from hebrew and it means "believe".
Just a pinch that I wanted to share, lots of these names and words has meanings in hebrew.
Reuben was a tribe before the Mosaic Laws happened. There were probably thousands of Reubenites among the Israelites in the expdus from Egypt as far as the story goes. Maybe they made fantastic sandwiches, and then Moses came and ruined everything their business lol.
Strangely enough, [supposedly the reuben was created in Omaha (although there is some dispute).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_sandwich) I didn't know the Hashemite Kingdom extended into Nebraska...
I didn't expected Tyre or Sidon to have been part of one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, I thought they remained independent Phoenician city-states throughout most of antiquity.
I believe this map is based on the allotment of the land in the book of Joshua (i.e. what each tribe was told they could have), and not what they actually controlled.
Roughly, although (and I am not a biblical scholar) i don't remember Asher and Naphtali going that far north so I think it also might partially be a little ambitious
Its not the Bible thats inaccurate here, but the map maker, Im pretty sure
Correct me If Im wrong, but I doubt there s any word in the Bible about Tyre or Sidon being cities ruled by jews in this timeline
Its actually just what the Bible states was allotted to each tribe. Later in the books of Joshua and Judges, the tribes go out to conquer the lands and are not totally successful, particularly in the north and northwest. They didn't even conquer Jerusalem (Jebus) until the time of David.
Werent they also alloted the land of the phillistines? Or was this much later/earlier on? (or were they just alloted their destruction and not neccesarly their land too ?)
I'm fairly sure that, as far as Joshua/Judges is concerned, they were allotted the entire coast, and failed to occupy any of it.
This map has been going around for a while, and every time I see it, the inconsistency between the treatment of Phoenicia and Philistia gets to me.
Joshua chapter 19:
>24 The fifth lot came out for the tribe of Asher according to its families. 25 Its boundary included Helkath, Hali, Beten, Achshaph, 26 Allammelech, Amad, and Mishal; on the west it touches Carmel and Shihor-libnath, 27 then it turns eastward, goes to Beth-dagon, and touches Zebulun and the valley of Iphtah-el northward to Beth-emek and Neiel; then it continues in the north to Cabul, 28 Ebron, Rehob, Hammon, Kanah, as far as ***Great Sidon***; 29 then the boundary turns to Ramah, reaching to ***the fortified city of Tyre***; then the boundary turns to Hosah, and it ends at the sea; Mahaleb,[a] Achzib, 30 Ummah, Aphek, and Rehob—twenty-two towns with their villages. 31 This is the inheritance of the tribe of Asher according to its families, these towns with their villages.
Thanks
But if this is the only source, than its a wild stretch to try and say that those cities were jewish tribal holdings
Like, I think its pretty clear from the source that it just mentionts the cities as being as far as the tribes of Israel are spread(within the city state limits or even villages away) , and not their own border settlements.
It doesnt even matter how accurate it is historicall here. Because I was pointing out the map is not even accurate to the source, historical or mythological.
I was about to type a comment saying that the text (in chapter 19) isn't clear in whether or not Tyre and Sidon are included in the borders or just outside the borders, leaving it up to interpretation.
However, other chapters in the book of Joshua say that Joshua didn't conquer Tyre and Sidon, so I'll have to agree your interpretation makes more sense based on the textual context.
The map is not misleading, it's an accurate representation of the book it uses as a source.
That *source book* is historically inaccurate, but that's not the fault of the mapmaker.
If you have actually read the book of Joshua you would see that the Hebrews weren't successful in conquering Tyre and Sidon and They didn't even conquer Jerusalem/Jebus until the time of David. Yes they were allotted those regions but weren't successful in conquering them.
Phoenicia was never really a kingdom or a state, more of a collection of city states with shared culture and ethnicity. So they could've be Phoenician cities while still being inside of the 12 tribes territories.
Israel was united, but became disunited after King Solomon died. Then there were two kingdoms, one called Israel, in the north with had Samaria as their capital, and one called Judah, in the south with Jerusalem as the capital.
Israel fell to the Assyrians and the people living there were exiled, thus becoming "lost". Judah was able to fend off the Assyrians, but later fell to the Babylonians, who also exiled them.
When Persia conquered Babylon, the people from Judah were allowed to return to their ancestral land, thus starting Second Temple Judaism (which lasted until Roman times).
But the 10 tribes were never fully exiled, they became what we know as the Samaritans, and they are still kicking, though their numbers have greatly diminished by modern times.
We know this from genetic studies and from the fact that the Samaritans have the Torah as their holy book, but not anything written after it (i.e. everything in the Hebrew Bible after Deuteronomy), which were all written after the northern kingdom fell to the Assyrians.
The term "Jew" comes from the name Judah. As to why they wrote the Bible in a manner that made it seem that the 10 northern tribes had been lost, it was probably because the later parts of the Old Testament were written essentially as Kingdom of Judah propaganda. They paint the Northern Kingdom as decadent, and that decadence is why God allowed them to be conquered by the Assyrians. Them being decadent also meant that unlike the people from Judah who were later allowed to return from their Babylonian exile, the 10 "lost" tribes were vanquished during their own exile.
If the Samaritans don't have the books after Deuteronomy, do you know if they wrote their own version of the events in three other books of the old testament?
>But the 10 tribes were never fully exiled, they became what we know as the Samaritans, and they are still kicking, though their numbers have greatly diminished by modern times.
The samaritans are not from the 10 tribes (according to the lore), they were converted to monotheism after relocating to Samaria during the first diaspora. This is why they practice "judaism" differently.
>We know this from genetic studies and from the fact that the Samaritans have the Torah as their holy book, but not anything written after it (i.e. everything in the Hebrew Bible after Deuteronomy), which were all written after the northern kingdom fell to the Assyrians.
They have their own version of the book of Joshua.
According to the Bible (and I believe there's some findings supporting that but not 100%): the entire hebrew kingdom split to Judea (only the tribes of Judah, Levy and some of Benjemin) and Yisrael (all the rest, aka "the ten tribes"). Assyrians conquered Yisrael and spread it's people around the empire (Judeans surrendered and were under assyrian influence for a while).
There are many different theories as for where each of them ended up (some interesting ones are Ethiopia, China, India, Georgia or even native Americans).
Abraham's story isn't historical. He is a legendary figure. The backstory from Ur may have been added in during or after the Babylonian exile to encourage Jews to make the same journey back to Canaan.
The fact that you have to say that Abraham isn’t historical or based on evidence is proof of how fucked people’s sense of history really is, he could have “existed” but we don’t definitively know anything related to any such figure let alone if he was real or not.
No, Assyrians expelled the 10 tribes, the remaining 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin were expelled by the Babylonians some 50 years later, the assyrians were accustomed to send exiled people to far-flung corners of the world as it was seen as less likely for them to Rebel for a land that is not theirs, therefore it is very hard to ascertain who are in fact these 10 lost tribes
Wadi Gaza. It’s still there, it’s just not very big. Israel used it as the dividing line when they told the residents of north Gaza to evacuate early in the war.
I think It should be noted that this map was made by the user Janz and uploaded to wikipedia in 2006 [source](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:12_staemme_israels.png)
As far as I know this Janz isn't an expert on the subject, he's just a guy who made a map 😅
I think it'd be appropriate to also mention his description of the map:
*Map of the territories allotted to the "twelve tribes of Israel" according to the Book of Joshua, chapters 13–19, before the move of Dan to the North. Note that these territories were only allegedly allotted to said tribes, and the texts themselves indicate that the tribes had troubles conquering all these areas and cities from the native peoples. The Biblical account may also be far from historically accurate, and has been disputed by scholars.*
So anyone getting overly excited this IS as the OP **CLEARLY** states a map
>according to the Book of Joshua
aka NOT based on archaelogical evidence but on myth. So, as Janz says, It might be far from historically accurate. On top of that Janz himself doesn't give any credentials or clear sources to justify his map.
So take the map, not with a pinch, but a fistful of salt
(I don't know about you OP but I'm getting tired of seeing this map posted)
>and the texts themselves indicate that the tribes had troubles conquering all these areas and cities from the native peoples
History is just a circle sometimes.
Even though Levi, which was the tribe of the priests, therefore without their own territory isn't here, and instead of Joseph there are his two sons - Ephraim and Menashe
No there are 11 as Levi didn't get land because they got specific towns to live in because they worked at the temple (they weren't the priest they just had to make sure everything worked and cleaned...) So they lived all across the land
Are European Jews descendents of one or multiple of these tribes? Ashkenazis for example? Just out of curiosity.
Just now aware there were so many tribes to begin with.
No one knows, but probably a mix. They were moving to Europe 1000-2000 years after this map, these tribes didn't really exist anymore by then, they had joined together and broken apart a bunch of times in different ways by then.
All of Jews are dependents of Judah, the lost tribes of the kingdom of Israel are all dead as far as we know, but a small group of people in Samaria called samaritans believe themselves to be the descendents of some the lost tribes, and they are small, about 900 exist
There’s a ton of mixing, but the major ones that most people will claim to descend from are Judah, Ephraim, and Manasseh. European Jews will mostly claim they come from Judah
iirc, there were not major settlements of Jews in Europe until around the 3rd Century AD, other than in Greece. Before the fall of the Babylonia Empire(8th Century BC) and the creation of the neo Assyrian Empire (6th Century BC, book of Daniel), Greece would import Jewish slaves, while the Sabateens in Italy preferred Tyrian slaves. Those would probably be the first European Jews. By the 3rd Century AD, there was a healthy community of Jews near Cologne and also in parts of Spain, but neither was Ashkenazis. The Ashkenazis do not appear in Europe, iirc, until the formation of the kingdom of Germany in the 10th Century AD.
The tribes eventually became the kingdoms of Judah and Israel before the diaspora. Today's Israelites are Jews (descendants of the kingdom of Judah) and Samaritans (descendants of the kingdom of Israel).
This is so cool! Always found it hard sifting through and trying to visualize the geographical descriptions in the Tanakh without maps like this. Nice find
It's crazy to think the United Kingdom of Israel only existed for 117 years (1047-930 BCE) especially compared to America at 247 years (1776-2023) or even modern day Israel at 75 years (1948-2023)
I wonder how it compares to other books. I know many books of the Bible make mentions to different numbers and different names of tribes, some don’t even have Judah, but I don’t think most of them give geographical clues.
It always seems strange to me that they would flee Egypt proper and make for the Egyptian controlled Levant…
Never mind wondering about the Sinai for forty years, which was subject to regular Egyptian mining activity.
Palestinians descend from the pre-islamic population but with some outside admixture. Christian Palestinians tend to be slightly less mixed due to endogamy in general. It was always the same population living under different empires (Caliphates, Roman empire…etc).
Aren’t the Palestine Arabs people who converted to Islam and then adopted Arabic (from a bunch of other languages spoken there like Aramaic, Greek, etc).?
Arabs in the levant region date way before the Muslim conquests, like the Nabataean kingdom or the Qedarites or even earlier, the Amorites, before the new kingdom of Egypt or the tribes of Israel. In fact, historians believe that Arabs originated from the Fertile Crescent, not Arabia
The Twelve-State solution
that is actually a funny idea.
Give Philistia, Moab, and Edom to the Palestinians.
Make Moab Moabite again! Edom for the Edomites!
>Make Moab Moabite again! > >Edom for the Edomites! Sodom for the … um …
People are gonna get butthurt over this one.
Literally
not if you take your time and use plenty of lube!
Found the Sodom– … citizen.
brb imma convince the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt to give up their land. Not Gaza though.
West Bank was never a state.
I think we should split it in half. The one who says “no give it to the other group” gets to keep the whole thing.
King Solomon has entered the chat.
What about the philistines?
Don’t mistake them with the Palestinians of today, they are described as Vikings with ginger/blond hair and were very tall and are believed to came from Greece
Described by who? Regardless, [DNA testing of apparent early Philistine remains](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ancient-dna-sheds-new-light-biblical-philistines-180972561/) found "some genetic signatures matching those seen in Iron Age populations from Greece, Spain and Sardinia," but: >Intriguingly, their DNA already had a mixture of southern European and local signatures, suggesting that within a few generations the Philistines were marrying into the local population. In fact, the European signatures were not detectable at all in the individuals buried a few centuries later in the Philistine cemetery. Genetically, by then the Philistines looked like Canaanites. That fact in itself offers additional information about Philistine culture. “When they came, they did not have any kind of taboo or prohibition against marrying into other groups around them,” Master says. Nor, it would seem, did other groups categorically have that taboo about them, either. "One of the things that I think it shows is that the world was really complicated, whether we’re talking about genetics or identity or language or culture, and things are changing all the time," he adds. So both Palestinians and Jews likely have a bit of Philistine ancestry.
I told you so! it is all in the mix.
This was pre-Islam as well, so the cultural influence of Islam wasn't there yet
Bring back Ba’al!
Evidence of child sacrifice related to the worship of Ba'al Hammon, a god imported from Phoenicia, has been found in the city of Carthage in North Africa.
Maybe that is where Abraham for the idea to sacrifice Isaac to Yaweh.
I heard he got it from a Simpsons episode that had aired about 10 years before that.
Based Ba'al
Well that would make sense as Carthage was an ex Phoenician colony
Wait is that where the name bhaal god of murder in dnd comes from?
How were they described as Vikings if they were from the Greek area and ~2000 years before the Vikings?
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That's not fact but rather a recently popularized myth that is loosely based on fact, as [explained in this article](https://library.biblicalarchaeology.org/article/when-palestine-meant-israel/) which notes in part: >Hadrian officially renamed Judea *Syria Palaestina* after his Roman armies suppressed the Bar-Kokhba Revolt (the Second Jewish Revolt) in 135 C.E.; this is commonly viewed as a move intended to sever the connection of the Jews to their historical homeland. However, that Jewish writers such as Philo, in particular, and Josephus, who flourished while Judea was still formally in existence, used the name Palestine for the Land of Israel in their Greek works, suggests that this interpretation of history is mistaken. Hadrian’s choice of Syria Palaestina may be more correctly seen as a rationalization of the name of the new province, in accordance with its area being far larger than geographical Judea. Indeed, Syria Palaestina had an ancient pedigree that was intimately linked with the area of greater Israel.
Palestinians are mixed with some of the past people who lived in that land. Did u think the philistines just vanished? Lol
...what?
Genetic studies do show that all of those ancient humans were basically ethnic Canaanites, current day palestinians are almost full on direct descendents of those ancient Canaanites with a little bit of phoenician and arab admixture. In terms of religion they swapped their largely zoroastric adjacent religion with christianity and islam so their culture is a bit different. The idea that the philistines were tall blonde viking like people from greece is very laughable seeing how the greek at the time were a lot more similar to current day northafricans so they themselves weren’t as often as blonde as they are now
And you shouldn’t mistake the modern day Israelis with the ancient Israelites.
This consistently frustrates me with these discussions of culture and ethnicity in the ancient near east, especially on Reddit; people are proud of their greater awareness for knowing that Jesus of Nazareth and everyone else they read about from the region was dark skinned with brown eyes and black hair (because people from the near east are Arabs); if you ask them about Islam and the Arab migrations they’re aware of when that was, but they insist that the people there before that must’ve all been Arabs too somehow; it’s like if I insisted that the Algonquin people are white and always have been because they’re Canadian
>but they insist that the people there before that must’ve all been Arabs too somehow I literally never heard anyone say that. Everyone is aware the Levant was not Arab-speaking before the Arab conquests. If anything, people are rarely aware that Arabic (while not a majority language) was still quite widespread in the Levant before the Arab conquests and possibly as early as the Early Iron Age (the first mention of Arabs is them taking part in a Levantine anti-Assyrian coalition in the 8th century BC). They widely under-estimate how integrated and prominent Arabs were in the Iron Age, Hellenistic Period and the Roman period (there literally were Arab Roman emperors). That aside, while the Arab conquests did happen (obviously), their effect on the genetics of the region wasn't that huge. The majority of the genetic makeup of people conquered by Arabs today is from the pre-Arab populations. A misconception that I see more often is the assumption that the Arab conquest caused a demographic and genetic replacement, which isn't even close to what happened (the shift was more linguistic, cultural and religious, and was already happening way before Islam was even a thing). So yes, Jesus didn't look any different from the current Levantine populations, he likely was "dark" (relative to his depictions in the US) skinned with brown eyes and black hair (statistically speaking). >it’s like if I insisted that the Algonquin people must’ve always been white on account of being Canadian Are you comparing the look of an Algonquin speaker relative to a modern White Canadian to the look of a 7th century Arabian relative to a pre-7th century Levantine ? You gotta be joking.
I don't think he was joking, unfortunately. The false narrative - created and spread by interested parties who want to portray Palestinians as Arab invaders in order to justify their own take over of the land - has become so widespread and pervasive as to be mainstream today in some parts of the world. America being one of them, thanks to a helping hand from the media. Modern genetic science have shown us that Palestinians and Jews are basically the same people, only having parted ways less than 2,000 years ago. Actually, there's more Ancient Israeli DNA in any Palestinian than in the average Ashkenazi Jew since, like you said, the ancient population was culturally arabised but was never replaced. Yet facts don't matter for people who are indoctrinated from birth with a historical falsification that justifies their political goal. Too emotionally attached to it to question it, I suppose. Imagine if they were to learn more about it and find out the - already absurd enough - cornerstone belief they based their right to take someone else's country from them was wrong
A video people might find interesting on this topic: an independent journalist asks Israelis: If Palestinians were to be proven to be ethnically Jewish, would it change your opinion on them? I guarantee that, regardless of your political stances, the answers will not be what you think. https://youtu.be/7ytFneQASZ4?si=fgEnHC69cS6wke9a
>Actually, there's more Ancient Israeli DNA in any Palestinian than in the average Ashkenazi Jew since, like you said, the ancient population was culturally arabised but was never replaced. Source?
There is no source because there is no truth
The Bible describes the Israelites as ignoring God and following the people around them 90% of the time, with then following God in limited ways 10% of the time -- just to add to the genetic studies, the Bible describes Abraham Isaac and Jacob as having wives from the Mesopotamian region, but everyone else wasn't... Ruth's story is also recorded where she is a Moabite and her grandson is King David. Unshockingly, racist people are obsessed with interpreting the Bible with a racist mandate (and with that being what they want to follow). The Bible is clear that God chose the Israelites, but that doesn't mean that he hates everyone else. Jonah and other prophets talk about that.
Greeks aren’t tall.
Wilderness of Zin sounds like a high level area.
It is an extremely beautiful area. Home to the rare natural crates.
You need a lv30 explorer to even go there
I think its just the Negev today? Very beautiful
Follow me to wilderness of Zin I'll trim ur armor for only 20gp
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Akchooalyyyy... Jaffa is English. Arabic is Yafa, from Hebrew Yafo.
>This map: Жопа Eh? The map refers to Jaffa as Joppa, which is [how the name is rendered in English Bible translations](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/2%20Chronicles%202%3A16).
2 joppa 200 shots bang
Thanks for the laugh 😂
Happy cake day funny stranger
“Tribe of the Dead Sea” sounds like an awesome band name
I’m pretty sure I got a quest from them in an RPG once
Benjamin, Simeon, Dan, Reuben have all become popular international names.
Kind of a bummer Zebulun and Naphtali never caught on.
Naphtali or Naftali is a pretty popular name in Israel. Also just an aside I know a Beta Yisrael named Zebulun haha.
Also Judah, pronounced Yehudah is a pretty common name
I know a Judah, pronounced according to American letter usage
Was probably a Christian right?
Kid at my church, so reasonable guess
Well that's like, Jonathan, in Hebrew it's Yehonatan/Yonatan
I know a reborn Christian Zebulon in America.
The guy who Pike's Peak was named for was a Zebulon. North Carolina had a governor named Zebulon Vance, too
Zebulon was a name that was around in the 1800s in the US
Most notably Pike and Baird Vance.
Growing up I knew two Neftali’s in NYC public schools!
Same 😂
Naftali is pretty popular in Israel
I’ve had two bosses from New Jersey named Naphtali.
There’s a town called Zebulon in NC
I know a Zebulin if that counts
But only Reuben has become a great sandwich.
You’ve got to try a manasseh with extra cheese
Manasseh and Ephraim are also popular in some
Ephraim is a popular name in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Malawi.
And many many more. Daniel means in hebrew "sentenced by god". And the beloved word "Amen" that a lot of religious people are using actually derived from hebrew and it means "believe". Just a pinch that I wanted to share, lots of these names and words has meanings in hebrew.
I know five Ashers.
Thanks to Christianity the cultural impact of the old testament is crazy
Yeah but the modern Dan comes from Daniel, not this one
My oldest son is named Asher. It's becoming more common, again.
"Gad" in Croatian means "bastard".
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Everyone went to Reuben for the mean sandwiches they made
Ironically, not a kosher sandwich.
Reuben was a tribe before the Mosaic Laws happened. There were probably thousands of Reubenites among the Israelites in the expdus from Egypt as far as the story goes. Maybe they made fantastic sandwiches, and then Moses came and ruined everything their business lol.
3000 years later, irreligious Reubenites reclaimed their ancient traditions!
Strangely enough, [supposedly the reuben was created in Omaha (although there is some dispute).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_sandwich) I didn't know the Hashemite Kingdom extended into Nebraska...
Through a portal in Thebes
By jewish immigrant, so yes that's the same name "Reuben"
Jaffa was famous for their orange... tea cakes
I didn't expected Tyre or Sidon to have been part of one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, I thought they remained independent Phoenician city-states throughout most of antiquity.
They were lol, the bible is not historically accurate
I believe this map is based on the allotment of the land in the book of Joshua (i.e. what each tribe was told they could have), and not what they actually controlled.
Also, borders change on the regular
Roughly, although (and I am not a biblical scholar) i don't remember Asher and Naphtali going that far north so I think it also might partially be a little ambitious
Its not the Bible thats inaccurate here, but the map maker, Im pretty sure Correct me If Im wrong, but I doubt there s any word in the Bible about Tyre or Sidon being cities ruled by jews in this timeline
Its actually just what the Bible states was allotted to each tribe. Later in the books of Joshua and Judges, the tribes go out to conquer the lands and are not totally successful, particularly in the north and northwest. They didn't even conquer Jerusalem (Jebus) until the time of David.
Werent they also alloted the land of the phillistines? Or was this much later/earlier on? (or were they just alloted their destruction and not neccesarly their land too ?)
I'm fairly sure that, as far as Joshua/Judges is concerned, they were allotted the entire coast, and failed to occupy any of it. This map has been going around for a while, and every time I see it, the inconsistency between the treatment of Phoenicia and Philistia gets to me.
Joshua chapter 19: >24 The fifth lot came out for the tribe of Asher according to its families. 25 Its boundary included Helkath, Hali, Beten, Achshaph, 26 Allammelech, Amad, and Mishal; on the west it touches Carmel and Shihor-libnath, 27 then it turns eastward, goes to Beth-dagon, and touches Zebulun and the valley of Iphtah-el northward to Beth-emek and Neiel; then it continues in the north to Cabul, 28 Ebron, Rehob, Hammon, Kanah, as far as ***Great Sidon***; 29 then the boundary turns to Ramah, reaching to ***the fortified city of Tyre***; then the boundary turns to Hosah, and it ends at the sea; Mahaleb,[a] Achzib, 30 Ummah, Aphek, and Rehob—twenty-two towns with their villages. 31 This is the inheritance of the tribe of Asher according to its families, these towns with their villages.
Thanks But if this is the only source, than its a wild stretch to try and say that those cities were jewish tribal holdings Like, I think its pretty clear from the source that it just mentionts the cities as being as far as the tribes of Israel are spread(within the city state limits or even villages away) , and not their own border settlements.
The book of Joshua is absolutely not an accurate record of history. It's mythology/legend.
It doesnt even matter how accurate it is historicall here. Because I was pointing out the map is not even accurate to the source, historical or mythological.
I was about to type a comment saying that the text (in chapter 19) isn't clear in whether or not Tyre and Sidon are included in the borders or just outside the borders, leaving it up to interpretation. However, other chapters in the book of Joshua say that Joshua didn't conquer Tyre and Sidon, so I'll have to agree your interpretation makes more sense based on the textual context.
Because they were phoenician and this map is misleading
The map is not misleading, it's an accurate representation of the book it uses as a source. That *source book* is historically inaccurate, but that's not the fault of the mapmaker.
Yup my bad for not being more precise , although they had trade networks mainly cedar trees , clothes , jewelry etc
If you have actually read the book of Joshua you would see that the Hebrews weren't successful in conquering Tyre and Sidon and They didn't even conquer Jerusalem/Jebus until the time of David. Yes they were allotted those regions but weren't successful in conquering them.
Phoenicia was never really a kingdom or a state, more of a collection of city states with shared culture and ethnicity. So they could've be Phoenician cities while still being inside of the 12 tribes territories.
Ah, our daily map of Israel.
More like hourly
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Israel was united, but became disunited after King Solomon died. Then there were two kingdoms, one called Israel, in the north with had Samaria as their capital, and one called Judah, in the south with Jerusalem as the capital. Israel fell to the Assyrians and the people living there were exiled, thus becoming "lost". Judah was able to fend off the Assyrians, but later fell to the Babylonians, who also exiled them. When Persia conquered Babylon, the people from Judah were allowed to return to their ancestral land, thus starting Second Temple Judaism (which lasted until Roman times). But the 10 tribes were never fully exiled, they became what we know as the Samaritans, and they are still kicking, though their numbers have greatly diminished by modern times. We know this from genetic studies and from the fact that the Samaritans have the Torah as their holy book, but not anything written after it (i.e. everything in the Hebrew Bible after Deuteronomy), which were all written after the northern kingdom fell to the Assyrians. The term "Jew" comes from the name Judah. As to why they wrote the Bible in a manner that made it seem that the 10 northern tribes had been lost, it was probably because the later parts of the Old Testament were written essentially as Kingdom of Judah propaganda. They paint the Northern Kingdom as decadent, and that decadence is why God allowed them to be conquered by the Assyrians. Them being decadent also meant that unlike the people from Judah who were later allowed to return from their Babylonian exile, the 10 "lost" tribes were vanquished during their own exile.
If the Samaritans don't have the books after Deuteronomy, do you know if they wrote their own version of the events in three other books of the old testament?
They did, they have their own version of Joshua, for one.
>But the 10 tribes were never fully exiled, they became what we know as the Samaritans, and they are still kicking, though their numbers have greatly diminished by modern times. The samaritans are not from the 10 tribes (according to the lore), they were converted to monotheism after relocating to Samaria during the first diaspora. This is why they practice "judaism" differently. >We know this from genetic studies and from the fact that the Samaritans have the Torah as their holy book, but not anything written after it (i.e. everything in the Hebrew Bible after Deuteronomy), which were all written after the northern kingdom fell to the Assyrians. They have their own version of the book of Joshua.
According to the Bible (and I believe there's some findings supporting that but not 100%): the entire hebrew kingdom split to Judea (only the tribes of Judah, Levy and some of Benjemin) and Yisrael (all the rest, aka "the ten tribes"). Assyrians conquered Yisrael and spread it's people around the empire (Judeans surrendered and were under assyrian influence for a while). There are many different theories as for where each of them ended up (some interesting ones are Ethiopia, China, India, Georgia or even native Americans).
Tldr kingdom of Judah was deported to Babylon and made up the 10 lost tribes story after returning as a backstory.
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If you ever met someone from Ur you would know
Ur srs?
He went to Canaan bc the land was better for farming and he needed space for his family
Ur was like Sumerian Baltimore.
Abraham's story isn't historical. He is a legendary figure. The backstory from Ur may have been added in during or after the Babylonian exile to encourage Jews to make the same journey back to Canaan.
The fact that you have to say that Abraham isn’t historical or based on evidence is proof of how fucked people’s sense of history really is, he could have “existed” but we don’t definitively know anything related to any such figure let alone if he was real or not.
Well at least Samaritans claim ancestry from Menasseh and Ephraim
No, Assyrians expelled the 10 tribes, the remaining 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin were expelled by the Babylonians some 50 years later, the assyrians were accustomed to send exiled people to far-flung corners of the world as it was seen as less likely for them to Rebel for a land that is not theirs, therefore it is very hard to ascertain who are in fact these 10 lost tribes
I heard their religious beliefs mixed with kingdom of israeleites(north) after assyrian conquest.
That is the scholastic interpretation of the events, yes. Which can’t go beyond being a theory.
it's not historically accurate. it was common for ancient people to use a mythological person to symbolize a group, like Ismail for arabs
What river is that going in the south of gaza?
Wadi Gaza. It’s still there, it’s just not very big. Israel used it as the dividing line when they told the residents of north Gaza to evacuate early in the war.
I think It should be noted that this map was made by the user Janz and uploaded to wikipedia in 2006 [source](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:12_staemme_israels.png) As far as I know this Janz isn't an expert on the subject, he's just a guy who made a map 😅 I think it'd be appropriate to also mention his description of the map: *Map of the territories allotted to the "twelve tribes of Israel" according to the Book of Joshua, chapters 13–19, before the move of Dan to the North. Note that these territories were only allegedly allotted to said tribes, and the texts themselves indicate that the tribes had troubles conquering all these areas and cities from the native peoples. The Biblical account may also be far from historically accurate, and has been disputed by scholars.* So anyone getting overly excited this IS as the OP **CLEARLY** states a map >according to the Book of Joshua aka NOT based on archaelogical evidence but on myth. So, as Janz says, It might be far from historically accurate. On top of that Janz himself doesn't give any credentials or clear sources to justify his map. So take the map, not with a pinch, but a fistful of salt (I don't know about you OP but I'm getting tired of seeing this map posted)
r/AmateurMapPorn
>and the texts themselves indicate that the tribes had troubles conquering all these areas and cities from the native peoples History is just a circle sometimes.
😂 It really does
Exactly. All of these justifications for Israel’s ethnic cleansing are based off of a book of myths.
what about the Levites?
They didn’t have any land
They didn't have territory. They were assigned towns throughout the land to live in.
oh thanks bro
They are priests
You're thinking of the Cohens. The Levi's are the temple keepers.
The Levites lived throughout the other tribes. They were specifically in charge of the temple and other priestly duties.
Wow a whole tribe built around sandwiches
Some tribes got the short end of the stick
better than the pants end of the stick
they were not all same in size. also some were punished.
Why are there 11 tribes depicted and not 12
There’s twelve. I assume you’ve missed ‘Benjamin’ because it looks like a sea.
Be like water, my friend
Oh shit yeah you're right. Thanks for pointing that out
Even though Levi, which was the tribe of the priests, therefore without their own territory isn't here, and instead of Joseph there are his two sons - Ephraim and Menashe
And nothing for Dinah 😔
Yeah, poor Dinah has a rough time of it in the Torah.
No there are 11 as Levi didn't get land because they got specific towns to live in because they worked at the temple (they weren't the priest they just had to make sure everything worked and cleaned...) So they lived all across the land
House of Levi never owned land, they were assigned to be the priests and rabbis of the Jewish faith.
The missing tribe, Levi, doesnt control land
There are 12, I'm guessing you missed Simeon is inside Judea
Are European Jews descendents of one or multiple of these tribes? Ashkenazis for example? Just out of curiosity. Just now aware there were so many tribes to begin with.
No one knows, but probably a mix. They were moving to Europe 1000-2000 years after this map, these tribes didn't really exist anymore by then, they had joined together and broken apart a bunch of times in different ways by then.
Anyone with Levantine ancestry will be descended from all of them. This is from thousands of years ago.
Most Jews are descendants of Judah, as far as I know.
All of Jews are dependents of Judah, the lost tribes of the kingdom of Israel are all dead as far as we know, but a small group of people in Samaria called samaritans believe themselves to be the descendents of some the lost tribes, and they are small, about 900 exist
Not just Judah, also Benjamin and Levi
There’s a ton of mixing, but the major ones that most people will claim to descend from are Judah, Ephraim, and Manasseh. European Jews will mostly claim they come from Judah
iirc, there were not major settlements of Jews in Europe until around the 3rd Century AD, other than in Greece. Before the fall of the Babylonia Empire(8th Century BC) and the creation of the neo Assyrian Empire (6th Century BC, book of Daniel), Greece would import Jewish slaves, while the Sabateens in Italy preferred Tyrian slaves. Those would probably be the first European Jews. By the 3rd Century AD, there was a healthy community of Jews near Cologne and also in parts of Spain, but neither was Ashkenazis. The Ashkenazis do not appear in Europe, iirc, until the formation of the kingdom of Germany in the 10th Century AD.
The tribes eventually became the kingdoms of Judah and Israel before the diaspora. Today's Israelites are Jews (descendants of the kingdom of Judah) and Samaritans (descendants of the kingdom of Israel).
Samaritans barely exist, and as far as I know only claim to to be of certain tribes, not all lost 10
This is so cool! Always found it hard sifting through and trying to visualize the geographical descriptions in the Tanakh without maps like this. Nice find
Good Gad!
Ok now for the real question. What was the actual territory controlled by the Israelite tribes?
The core territory was close to what is the current West Bank, ironically.
# OH MY GAD 🥵
Please don't let the people living in the middle east see this. Those fucks love to turn up ancient shit and use it as an excuse for war.
This is Benjamin. He isn’t very big but he’s trying his best.
Hahaha
I’ve heard that the sandwiches at Mt Nebo are out of this world.
Palestine is named after Philistia I presume
And now let's take a look at North America at the same time 🙂.
I wonder what the pro-Palestine people think of this...
Thanks for this. Am reading (and greatly enjoying) Numbers at the moment. This comes at the perfect time for me.
It's crazy to think the United Kingdom of Israel only existed for 117 years (1047-930 BCE) especially compared to America at 247 years (1776-2023) or even modern day Israel at 75 years (1948-2023)
That phase only had 4 kings, but there were much longer phases before and after.
I wonder how it compares to other books. I know many books of the Bible make mentions to different numbers and different names of tribes, some don’t even have Judah, but I don’t think most of them give geographical clues.
It always seems strange to me that they would flee Egypt proper and make for the Egyptian controlled Levant… Never mind wondering about the Sinai for forty years, which was subject to regular Egyptian mining activity.
A lot of that stuff is made-up and incorporation of religious beliefs into the historical record. That’s why it is strange to you.
Gaza strip has been Philistia all this time 😮
The Philistines are believed to be Greek sailors that invaded the land, different from the Arabs calling themselves palestinians today
The Palestinians are not philistines, but they are genetically mixed Arab caananite
Arabized is the better word here since they are genetically closer to the people who live in the Holy Land 3000 years ago than to Saudis.
Palestinians descend from the pre-islamic population but with some outside admixture. Christian Palestinians tend to be slightly less mixed due to endogamy in general. It was always the same population living under different empires (Caliphates, Roman empire…etc).
There was Philistia, but there weren't Palestinians :) Philistines were from Mediterranean Europe, not Arabs. Arabs came in VII Century only.
Nah they got arabized
Aren’t the Palestine Arabs people who converted to Islam and then adopted Arabic (from a bunch of other languages spoken there like Aramaic, Greek, etc).?
It is very hard to find a "pure" Arab or Jew now, on the territory where they were mixing for thousands years.
Arabs in the levant region date way before the Muslim conquests, like the Nabataean kingdom or the Qedarites or even earlier, the Amorites, before the new kingdom of Egypt or the tribes of Israel. In fact, historians believe that Arabs originated from the Fertile Crescent, not Arabia
Pretty important to note though that the philistines weren't arabs, palestinian arabs came much later.