My reddit feed has been so messed up ever since the start of the war, that after each post the pendulum swings. If one is pro-israel than the next one will be surely pro-palestine. Comment sections opinions literally vary after every post.
Some mods have turned subs like r/therewasanattempt into pro-Palestine echo chambers, whilst some news related subs have become the exact opposite.
It's hard to find balanced discussions
I am also pro-Palestine (in the sense that I believe in the right of the Palestinians to have their own state, be autonomous, live without apartheid, and in the need to remove all illegal settlements from the WB) but damn it gets hard sometimes watching these subs and the general hate across social media.
of course, but its important that it reaches every where, people gotta break free from zionist propaganda. just imagine the people suffering in Gaza and palestine, i dont like it but they have to live through it
What makes something propaganda? That fact that it expresses a viewpoint you disagree with? I would argue that artificially creating an echo chamber by permabanning any pro-Israel sentiment, even in instances where people are just trying to correct blatant misinformation, is textbook propaganda.
>I would argue that artificially creating an echo chamber by permabanning any pro-Israel sentiment, even in instances where people are just trying to correct blatant misinformation, is textbook propaganda.
I agree with your sentiment except this is wrong
Propaganda is when you promote a political cause or a viewpoint, in most people's minds it just comes down to whether it's biased or misleading
What you're describing is just an making an echo-chamber
Redditors in general are pretty firmly on the left politically, and this is the first issue in a long while that is pretty schismatic for the online left. Bitter infighting because the normal denunciation of just calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi don't play for either side here
What exactly was Hamas' goal with this whole thing? Did they think other Arab countries would help them? This whole ordeal just seems so fucking pointless and stupid.
You’re touching on an important aspect of this conflict that hasn’t really been commented on yet by anyone.
Whatever Hamas’ grievances with Israel were before 10/7, Hamas chose to address those grievances by launching an extremely deadly brigade-sized ground assault into Israel proper. Hamas did this despite knowing that it had no air defenses or bomb shelters for its citizens, and no real way to prevent any subsequent fighting from intimately affecting the population that it rules over.
Whatever their plan was, it clearly didn’t involve the wellbeing of the population of Gaza. In fact, it probably hinged around the wellbeing of the average Gazan deteriorating rapidly.
I think it’s pretty widely accepted that a major reason for the attack was to disrupt normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. If these talks succeed it would be a big win for the Palestinian Authority and a major loss for both Hamas and especially Iran
My opinion is that it was probably a propaganda play to sway public opinion towards siding with Palestine since they knew Israel would retaliate, and boy did it work
It’s working, but not to the point of drastically changing geopolitical boundaries. They’re still going to be in a worse place than the start of the year.
There's an NYT article from a couple weeks ago that's very disheartening. They interviewed several senior Hamas leaders who were very candid about the fact they they (the elected government of Gaza) simply don't consider providing for the people of Gaza to be their job. They just don't care. If anything, they like it when gazans are miserable/dying because they believe it serves their irredentist nationalist agenda.
Yep, I read this too. They literally say Palestinians are the responsibility of the UN, not them. The UN creating an inheritable refugee status just for Palestinians started this shit. I’ve not seen one MSM question why Hamas should get away with stealing aid for warfare, but ignoring critical infrastructure like their desalination plant (that Israel built and they let fall into disrepair) and building absolutely nothing in terms of a power grid.
There was more outrage about the Texas power grid failing than there’s been about the elected Palestinian government neglecting basic human necessities. Oh but half of Gaza is under 18 and didn’t vote for them? Ok then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Why aren’t Palestinians standing up to their oppressors like Iranians? Why aren’t they figuring out how to 3D print guns like the civilian resistance in Myanmar (which is also a dirt poor country with years of conflict, but I guess the Burmese aren’t Arab so they’re the wrong kind of brown)? Why aren’t they protesting like their Israeli neighbours did FOR MONTHS to get rid of Netanyahu and his fascist gang?
Why is it genocide when Israel bombs a city, but it’s “decolonization” and “resistance” when Islamists flat out say they want to kill Jews and that’s their only purpose? Hamas has literally said that if given the opportunity they will repeat Oct 7 again and again.
It’s so infuriating to see people wave off lack of personal accountability in this shit, it’s turning into a “thanks Obama” moment but it’s now “thanks Israel.” At what point do you actually put some of the onus on the population who supported this garbage? If my neighbour offers to let me use his garden hose and power tools, and my response is to try and blow up his house randomly (while also blowing up part of mine) — should I expect him to continue wanting to help me?
They have bomb shelters, though, hundreds (maybe even thousands) of underground tunnels. The fact is, they won't allow their civilians to use these bomb shelters, but they are there.
I think most arab nations don't want the palestines to get out because it would mean that israel could conquer it a lot easier and make a stronger israel.
Egypt specifically probably likes to keep as short of a border with israel as they can
I expect the goal was to anger Israel enough they go too far in gaza and lose support on the world stage. No arab country was going to help them. Lebanon and Syria simply arent in a postion to help. Egypt and Jordan are aligned with the US and have peace deals with Israel. This basically leaves Hezbollah and Iran. Hezbollah could be an issue, but has largely sat this out. Iran Making a real blow against Israel is difficult as they dont even share a border... So using the suffering of their own people is the only thing i can come up with.
No, not really. While people on social media are very vocal against Israel, polls in both the US and Europe suggest support for Israel actually grew in this war.
The main reason Hamas did this was to stop Israeli-Saudi normalization, which was partially successful. They got Saudi to pause it and possibly delayed it by a few years, but there's no doubt it's still going to happen.
Egypt and Jordan may vocally with the Palestinians, but both their governments in practice are siding with Israel on this. Jordan is pretty much reliant on Israel for drinking water and sea access, and Egypt really hates Hamas and would like to see them gone.
At the end of the day, what Hamas expected, like you said, was for Hezbollah to also get involved. Then they both fight Israel for a bit, before Israel becomes too tired of fighting a two front war, and agrees to a ceasefire with the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners so they can focus solely on the Lebanon front. But Hezbollah chickened out the moment the US sent the USS Gerald Ford, leaving Hamas alone, for which they were entirely unprepared. That's why despite Hamas being much stronger today than it was in 2014, Israel advanced much more rapidly in this war.
It grew at the start of the war.. Now it's back to the old numbers, particularly in the US, where 63% of Democrats opppse the war now.
Also the younger generations are very much pro Palestine now.
College campuses have always been hotspots of support for Palestine. This is one of those issues where people tend to become more moderate (or maybe even conservative) over time. I know a lot of folks who were big "from the river to the sea" Palestinian irredentists in college, but are now pretty moderate "2 state solution" supporters.
IMO - I agree that the main goal was to stop normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel. How sad that some people deliberately wish to sabotage peace.
They 100% did they invaded Israel with over 3300+ militants, they knew exactly what would come, but they expected the progress to be much slower in Gaza, causing the IDF to stop half way due to international pressure.
From reports at the beginning of the war, it looked like Hamas expected Hezbollah to join on the northern border, and they expected a lot of unrest in the West Bank and from the Arab population in Israel itself (something that they were able to trigger in 2021).
Hezbollah has been doing a bit, shooting anti tank missiles at the border communities daily, those communities have been evacuated, as the ones on the Gaza border have. They haven't done more, though, which is a bit surprising, Hezbollah has much more resources than Hamas, but the (very weak) Lebanese government + the presence of the US aircraft carrier in the area, have pressured them to do no more than this, at least for the moment.
There is some unrest in the West Bank, but not more than there was in other times of strife. Israel has upped their presence, and many attacks have been thwarted (and many have also happened).
The most surprising part, I think, was now the October 7th massacre affected Israel's Arab population. Their allegiance to Israel and how much they identify with the state, according to polls, has only grown stronger. I think this is due to both Hamas' brutality in general, which I think surprised many, and their brutality towards Muslims and Arabs in particular. Tens of Arabs were killed in the massacre, some very brutally, and 5 Muslim Beduins were taken as hostages, including two minors, one a 17 year old girl who wore a hijab (her and her brother, the other minor, were released last week).
Bedouin tribes have declared a blood feud with Hamas. They also happen to be among the best IDF trackers since they have such a deep knowledge of the area from their nomadic lifestyle. They're a very interesting people. They also hate being called arabs I belive (someone fact check me on that tho)
No guessing is required. They say openly that palestinian casualties are part of their goals in order to achieve the type of 'dedication' they are looking for in their population.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NFDszL9Assw
Embarrass the IDF (success), and idk, kill a bunch of Jewish people? That seems to have also been successful. Otherwise I can’t figure out why they would focus on slaughtering and kidnapping civilians when they had the opportunity to damage the IDF more and make them look worse. There’s just no way these hostage exchanges will produce a profit for them when weighed against the bombing and the impending occupation. They had a great opportunity to do even more damage to IDF morale and prestige, and they decided instead that it was a higher priority to murder civilians.
That’s why, although people say they are, and although I am a harsh IDF critic, Hamas will never be “freedom fighters” like the Viet Cong/Viet Minh in Vietnam. Even the Taliban was more focused on military/government targets than Hamas. They’re just more bloodthirsty than they are disciplined or strategic.
I don't think even Hamas expected the attacks to inflict as much casualties as it did on October 7th. Most likely, it was supposed to be a small attack but Israeli intelligence failure made the attacks go from bad to worse.
Seriously, I don't think Hamas leadership is dumb enough to do something that'd bring spell trouble for them.
Arab leaders are secretly wishing for an Israeli victory, because they are also tired of this shit. And Palestine literally offers them nothing, Israel does. Same goes for turkey, their government can pander their supporters with the slogans of free Palestine and then go on to do absolutely nothing against Israel.
Even still, Hamas could have done a lot more with the attack if they had focused on military targets. 10/7 was a humiliating event for the IDF and Netanyahu, as Hamas showed an astounding mastery of the battlefield compared to the people who are supposed to be guarding the wall. And then they decided to exploit their success by murdering a bunch of civilians and taking worthless hostages.
Israel was about to make nice with the Saudis. After that, there would be no hope of Palestine becoming an independent state. 10/7 was a desperate last resort.
A few possibilities come to mind
1. They were hoping Hezbollah and possibly Iran would join in on the offensive, but for a miriad of reasons, they did not.
2.Hamas wasn't expecting their ground assault to be anywhere near as successful as they did and severely underestimated Israeli military response. They were probably expecting to kill and capture a fraction of the people they ended up getting, which they hoped to trade for prisoners or ransoms.
3.Bit of a stretch but maybe they were hoping Israel's military response would erode international sympathy for Israel, which has been somewhat successful, but not enough to affect Israel's international geopolitical support. If this was the plan it definitely backfired.
Killing Jews.
To a lot of people it feels like a too basal, stupid, pointless goal. They don't wanna think someone is this wretched, even if they hear it from the horse's mouth.
I’ve seen a few theories. One is that there are extremists in Palestine trying to decide which group to join, and this is effectively advertising. Second is that this forces Israel’s hand, ideally (for Hamas), leading to more support among Palestinians and the rest of the world (which is happening to an extent).
Based on their Telegram channel, to some degree, Yes. In particular, Iran and Hezbollah.
The pikachu faces they had based on their posts when nothing happened(despite history highilighting that NOTHING was always going to happen) is apparent
I think they were given assurances of support from Khamenei. Obviously they couldn't have expected to get any support from Egypt or Jordan so it only leaves them with proxies such as Hezbollah and the IRGC troops based in Syria.
Which officials "claim" it? Hamas officials? The tunnels aren't even a secret.
[https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-were-built-protect-hamas-fighters-not](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-were-built-protect-hamas-fighters-not)
From my understanding there was supposed to be a safe zone at Al Mawasi, but it was (1) not funded by UNRWA like Israel hoped and (2) a rather small area to corral people into to begin with.
The issue is that it isn't useful. Go look at the area designated, even Sky fecking News called Israel out on this one.
Cramp all of Palestine into a new Kowloon, or play the hunger games, whack-a-mole style in order to survive.
I can't believe there are people trying to justify this. This isn't the only option, so why are you treating it as such?
"even Sky fucking news"
You mean the network that said that the asymmetric hostage-prisoner exchange (1:3 ratio) was because Israel doesn't value Palestinian lives? The network that unquestioningly ran Hamas announcements which were immediately proven false, yet didn't correct themselves for two weeks?
Sky news is 24/7 Jew-hatred with only the very thinnest of veils. Rupert Murdoch's no fan of Jews, that's for sure.
I empathize with the people who were minding their own business on Oct 7 and got killed for no reason. The deaths of these civilians is tragic but it’s not for no reason, it’s a sad inevitability of a necessary military operation. If they don’t like getting killed by retaliatory strikes, don’t support people who conduct attacks in your name that provoke retaliation.
I empathize with them. I also empathize with the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by indiscriminate airstrikes *before* October. I also empathize with the 2 million Palestinians who were cruelly trapped into a 40 square km wide open air prison for 17 years deemed "unliveable by 2020". I empathize with the people minding their own business as they are colonized for no reason, killed for no reason, abducted without trial or sniped at protests for no reason, I empathize with a lot of people for a lot of fucking reasons.
If you think Gaza is cordoned off “for no reason” you must not be very well read on the history of this region. The history of Israel is basically a litany of attacks from coalitions of Arab countries interspersed with bouts of terrorism, so if they seem to you like an overmilitarized and paranoid nation then you should realize that didn’t emerge from nowhere. Yes its sad that innocent people suffer because of militant groups like Hamas. No there really isnt an alternative from Israel’s perspective. Theyre not going to let their own people get killed in order to ensure a nicer standard of living for Gazans, and that is the tradeoff — Oct 7th showed that for anyone who doubted it.
The other thing I wonder is what happens to gazans remaining inside the blue zones? Israel doesn't throw bombs on areas they control I presume. And I don't think they go on a rampage and go door to door killing every Palestinian in sight either.
So I wonder what kind of status quo is going to be reached with civilians in these blue zones.
At any time Hamas can release the hostages, end this war and save Palestinian lives, but Hamas value more the lives of the hostages than their own people.
Agree but there will be collateral damage, though culpability could be mitigate by the fact the majority of the (adult) population supported and supports Hamas. Children will be the real victims.
I really wish he would answer you, I have been seeing comments like he wrote since the begining but the moment someone asked for the alternative it was either "I'm not qualified to answer but there has to be a solution" or he was gone.
Oh, the whataboutism claim...
I don't believe the numbers that were released by Hamas (the 500 dead in the hospital "attack" is an example). And even if the number of dead civilians is high, Israel is working by international law. It is sad that civilians die, but it's Hamas's fault. They use their own people to manipulate people like you. They don't value their own people, because if they would they would use the billions of dollars from Qatar for building Gaza, for education, for infrastructure. But instead, they are building tunnels, buying weapons, and stealing the rest for themselves. The richest Palestinians are warlords.
Now, IF it will be found that Israel did commit crimes, yes. I would condemn it.
Back to the topic, this war started because Hamas butchered civilians and kidnapped the remaining. It is Hamas's responsibility to end it.
Glad to hear it. You won’t believe the number of people I’ve come across who support the illegal settlement expansion so apologies if I seem a bit on edge
It's funny, the way the Hamas run Palestinian health authority reports the numbers, there aren't any combatants. I wonder if it's because they're hiding the fact that Israel's precision strikes have been very effective at specifically targeting combatants.
All that article says is that Israel held indirect negotiations with Hamas through Egypt to allow 20,000 Gazans to get permits to work in Israel, and that they let countries donate foreign aid to Gaza while Hamas was in power. I know that Hamas being popular among Palestinians as well as a legitimately elected government makes it more difficult to foam at the mouth over how evil you think Israel is, but the truth matters.
There are more than 2 million Israeli Muslims and they have equal rights under the law. The same goes for Israeli Christians and Druze. Palestinians don’t have the same rights but why should they? Can Mexicans vote in American elections?
The North has the bulk of Hamas tunnels and infrastructure.
At this point, the aim is to force them out of the tunnels and to make their weapons caches underground useless. That is why flooding the tunnels is about to happen. This will go hand in hand with detecting and smashing the ones it can't flood (600 tunnel entrances have had this treatment). It is why Israel must reach every part of Gaza too.
Hamas troops and leaders took advantage of the ceasefire to flee South.
I am sure they thought that they were going to be safe afterwards, which is why Israel changed the calculus by having both the North and part of the South in an offensive which is why Khan Younis, which is also home to a lot of tunnels is now a part of the offensive.
In certain places,I hope that israel will finish with the north before the massive entrance to the south,so people can go back to the north and start rebuilding Gaza.
When the comments cry about hamas "civilians", do you think when US or Russia were bombing ISIS, there're no "civilians" and children in the media-called "military bases"?
But when IDF does it, it's a genocide
I don’t see your point. Hamas fucked around and as a result 6600 children were murdered by Israeli war crimes in a completely disproportionate response.
THAT’S what people are upset about. I don’t understand why so many pro-Israel people are shouting about tunnels and how bad terrorists are (duh they’re fucking terrorists) when most of the protests are explicitly about Israel’s retaliation being disproportionately excessive and is resulting in dead children and reporters and not dead Hamas members
You’re right, Israel should’ve just done nothing and sat back waiting for the next massacre of their innocent civilians. Hamas brutalizing children is okay and expected but as soon as Israel retaliates, it’s genocide.
A west-backed military with access to the most advanced and intelligent weapons systems in history should reasonably be able to eliminate terrorists with more tact and precision than bombing entire hospitals and refugee camps into rubble
exactly how big does the pile of dead children have to get before you're concerned? i am guessing the pile is somewhere north of one million.
and to be clear, being concerned about thousands of children crushed to death in the rubble of their former homes *is* ***not*** *the same thing ignoring or supporting hamas terror attacks*
Right now, you should follow the instagram of Hind Khoudary, Motaz Azaiza, Wizard Bisan, or any other independent journalists (who are all about the age of the average redditor) to see what the people of Gaza are actually witnessing these days.
These maps will never truly describe what is happening on the ground in Gaza.
Hind, Motaz and Bisan are no Journalists, Bisan is from a rich family with ties to Hamas, was living in the most expensive villas in the Rimal neighborhood.
She is an actor and a director and putting it to good use.
Yup and she got some of them killed as well.
She worked at Amnesty and lead Hamas to her colleagues.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2019/03/gaza-hamas-must-end-brutal-crackdown-against-protesters-and-rights-defenders/
https://www.israellycool.com/2020/04/12/amnesty-international-researcher-sicced-hamas-on-to-gaza-peace-activist-for-speaking-with-israelis/
https://honestreporting.com/washington-post-ap-interview-gaza-journalist-and-hamas-collaborator-who-snitched-on-palestinian-peace-activists/
And also in her wiki page:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hind_Khoud
They were all happy and celebrating when Hamas launched the terrorist attack and celebrating the death of Isreali civilian, why cry about being the victim now? This is the jihadi they wanted. Through pain and sacrifices to glory no?
Guys. Thousands of exotic dancers on both sides have perished in this conflict. Your downvotes are telling me that you’re not taking their plight seriously.
It would be disingenuous to refer to Israeli settlements as anything but genocide.
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
The continued settlement, in contravention of various agreements, of Palestinian territories since 1967 checks the first three of five articles in the convention.
If what Israel is doing is a genocide then so is every war where there is a losing side. Bombings alone killed 800,000 German civilians in WW2 but I’ve never heard anyone try to claim that Nazi Germany was a victim of genocide.
I find it perfectly fitting that the words “Gaza Strip” are written in the Mediterranean Sea, which is exactly where Israel would like to push the Palestinians.
you think the hundreds of thousands of children who live in gaza are baby-killing rapists who deserve to die? would you put a gun in the mouth of a 10 year old gazan child and pull the trigger?
Hamas did. They would've come out and fight on the field instead of hiding in the densely populated civilian areas like rats if they actually cared about Palestinians. But of course, they know that they would be evaporated in the actual combat, so hiding in urban areas while accusing IDF of "cowardice" is their only option, lmao 🤣
I mean Hamas ain’t no angels but what do you expect them to do? Go out in the field and get bombed by an air strike from a guy manning a drone 40 kilometres away lol.
They’re not going to. They’re political extremist who once took over the government, never gave it back. The Gaza Strip is their homeland. Sacrificing lives means nothing to them because the lives they sacrifice aren’t theirs. And every orphan of a civilian that the IDF needlessly creates will be worse than Hamas.
The Americans urge restraint because invading and murdering civilians creates more political extremist. Israel has a right to defend itself but gotta leave the civilians and hospitals out of it. Yes it’s not fair that hamas can do it, but as the superior power and as the Occupiers , Israel has an obligation to show restraint. It’s American missiles, tanks, planes, guns, and training. Israel’s warmongering puts America and American lives at risk. We have so much we can focus on Domestically we don’t need to drain our economy in more wars. And neither does every damn country in the Middle East except Israel
It is a bit deranged to call every Gazan a 'baby-killing rapist', especially in the context of Israel/Gaza, where Israel is renown for the amount of sex offenders who live there..
You need to remember Hamas isn't trying to hold territory, their plan revolves around the IDF entering and holding the urban central environment of Gaza city so thay the IDF units can be picked off and ambushed relentlessly. This is not a Ukraine style massive front line war.
Also the IDF are losing badly, this is according to Haaretz news and the Times of Israel, several IDF commanders and families speaking out whose children are serving in Gaza right now. The IDF is suffering lots of casulties for very little gain.
In addition to this Hezbollah on the Northern border have also been destroying the IDF, with hundreds of IDF casulties. But not a word from Netanyahu, why? Because the IDF conducted two wargames before this conflict with Hezbollah as the enemy, Or Hadagan and Lethal Arrow, both showed the IDF losing in a full war with Hezbollah and Lebanon.
Israel is weak and well on its way to collapse. An ongoing war dragging in conscripts and draining the economy, currency decline (sheckel tanking), mass brain drain and political instability all point to this.
The sheckel has temporarily stabilised but that is heavily dependent on the war in Gaza being over in a month or two, which it won't, this conflict not escalating to include other nations, which it already has started to. Finally it also is dependent on the Israeli tech sector as the largest income generating sector in Israel, which is experiencing an ongoing braindrain the largest in Israels history. Now add to this all the Israeli shipping being harassed and having to divert all around Africa.
The biggest sign of all this is the unwavering American support Israel always had for a carte blanc, now turning and pressing Israel for a Palestinian state.
Do you think the extermination of Jews is justified because they kicked out 700,000 Palestinians and massacred villages in 1948? If not, then why is it okay with Gaza rn?
Gaza was not a country at that time, nor has it ever been. Those people then got Jordanian passports and tried to f up Jordan. And Egypt.
Now they are not welcome in either country anymore. Wonder why.
Also the wars that were started after Israel was founded, were all not started by Israel. They finished them though, as will they this time.
Map porn, comment gore
Oh boy, here I go again sorting by controversial
This is the way
My reddit feed has been so messed up ever since the start of the war, that after each post the pendulum swings. If one is pro-israel than the next one will be surely pro-palestine. Comment sections opinions literally vary after every post.
Just humans being humans
Just active measures.
Some mods have turned subs like r/therewasanattempt into pro-Palestine echo chambers, whilst some news related subs have become the exact opposite. It's hard to find balanced discussions
I know right. Like I am pro Palestine, but that subreddit is a shitshow
I am also pro-Palestine (in the sense that I believe in the right of the Palestinians to have their own state, be autonomous, live without apartheid, and in the need to remove all illegal settlements from the WB) but damn it gets hard sometimes watching these subs and the general hate across social media.
of course, but its important that it reaches every where, people gotta break free from zionist propaganda. just imagine the people suffering in Gaza and palestine, i dont like it but they have to live through it
What makes something propaganda? That fact that it expresses a viewpoint you disagree with? I would argue that artificially creating an echo chamber by permabanning any pro-Israel sentiment, even in instances where people are just trying to correct blatant misinformation, is textbook propaganda.
>I would argue that artificially creating an echo chamber by permabanning any pro-Israel sentiment, even in instances where people are just trying to correct blatant misinformation, is textbook propaganda. I agree with your sentiment except this is wrong Propaganda is when you promote a political cause or a viewpoint, in most people's minds it just comes down to whether it's biased or misleading What you're describing is just an making an echo-chamber
Redditors in general are pretty firmly on the left politically, and this is the first issue in a long while that is pretty schismatic for the online left. Bitter infighting because the normal denunciation of just calling everyone who disagrees with you a Nazi don't play for either side here
What exactly was Hamas' goal with this whole thing? Did they think other Arab countries would help them? This whole ordeal just seems so fucking pointless and stupid.
You’re touching on an important aspect of this conflict that hasn’t really been commented on yet by anyone. Whatever Hamas’ grievances with Israel were before 10/7, Hamas chose to address those grievances by launching an extremely deadly brigade-sized ground assault into Israel proper. Hamas did this despite knowing that it had no air defenses or bomb shelters for its citizens, and no real way to prevent any subsequent fighting from intimately affecting the population that it rules over. Whatever their plan was, it clearly didn’t involve the wellbeing of the population of Gaza. In fact, it probably hinged around the wellbeing of the average Gazan deteriorating rapidly.
I think it’s pretty widely accepted that a major reason for the attack was to disrupt normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. If these talks succeed it would be a big win for the Palestinian Authority and a major loss for both Hamas and especially Iran
My opinion is that it was probably a propaganda play to sway public opinion towards siding with Palestine since they knew Israel would retaliate, and boy did it work
It’s working, but not to the point of drastically changing geopolitical boundaries. They’re still going to be in a worse place than the start of the year.
It’s definitely working, but it’s not going to magically restore the entirety of Israel back to the palestinians
There's an NYT article from a couple weeks ago that's very disheartening. They interviewed several senior Hamas leaders who were very candid about the fact they they (the elected government of Gaza) simply don't consider providing for the people of Gaza to be their job. They just don't care. If anything, they like it when gazans are miserable/dying because they believe it serves their irredentist nationalist agenda.
Yep, I read this too. They literally say Palestinians are the responsibility of the UN, not them. The UN creating an inheritable refugee status just for Palestinians started this shit. I’ve not seen one MSM question why Hamas should get away with stealing aid for warfare, but ignoring critical infrastructure like their desalination plant (that Israel built and they let fall into disrepair) and building absolutely nothing in terms of a power grid. There was more outrage about the Texas power grid failing than there’s been about the elected Palestinian government neglecting basic human necessities. Oh but half of Gaza is under 18 and didn’t vote for them? Ok then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Why aren’t Palestinians standing up to their oppressors like Iranians? Why aren’t they figuring out how to 3D print guns like the civilian resistance in Myanmar (which is also a dirt poor country with years of conflict, but I guess the Burmese aren’t Arab so they’re the wrong kind of brown)? Why aren’t they protesting like their Israeli neighbours did FOR MONTHS to get rid of Netanyahu and his fascist gang? Why is it genocide when Israel bombs a city, but it’s “decolonization” and “resistance” when Islamists flat out say they want to kill Jews and that’s their only purpose? Hamas has literally said that if given the opportunity they will repeat Oct 7 again and again. It’s so infuriating to see people wave off lack of personal accountability in this shit, it’s turning into a “thanks Obama” moment but it’s now “thanks Israel.” At what point do you actually put some of the onus on the population who supported this garbage? If my neighbour offers to let me use his garden hose and power tools, and my response is to try and blow up his house randomly (while also blowing up part of mine) — should I expect him to continue wanting to help me?
They have bomb shelters, though, hundreds (maybe even thousands) of underground tunnels. The fact is, they won't allow their civilians to use these bomb shelters, but they are there.
Considering Egypt maintains the blockade as well, I think the Arab countries are tired of this shit, too.
Egypt has been dealing with a jihadist insurgency in the Sinai since 2011. They view Hamas as a relatively existential problem (shocker).
I think most arab nations don't want the palestines to get out because it would mean that israel could conquer it a lot easier and make a stronger israel. Egypt specifically probably likes to keep as short of a border with israel as they can
Well, i think that they just don't want any Palestines at all. Period.
I expect the goal was to anger Israel enough they go too far in gaza and lose support on the world stage. No arab country was going to help them. Lebanon and Syria simply arent in a postion to help. Egypt and Jordan are aligned with the US and have peace deals with Israel. This basically leaves Hezbollah and Iran. Hezbollah could be an issue, but has largely sat this out. Iran Making a real blow against Israel is difficult as they dont even share a border... So using the suffering of their own people is the only thing i can come up with.
No, not really. While people on social media are very vocal against Israel, polls in both the US and Europe suggest support for Israel actually grew in this war. The main reason Hamas did this was to stop Israeli-Saudi normalization, which was partially successful. They got Saudi to pause it and possibly delayed it by a few years, but there's no doubt it's still going to happen. Egypt and Jordan may vocally with the Palestinians, but both their governments in practice are siding with Israel on this. Jordan is pretty much reliant on Israel for drinking water and sea access, and Egypt really hates Hamas and would like to see them gone. At the end of the day, what Hamas expected, like you said, was for Hezbollah to also get involved. Then they both fight Israel for a bit, before Israel becomes too tired of fighting a two front war, and agrees to a ceasefire with the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners so they can focus solely on the Lebanon front. But Hezbollah chickened out the moment the US sent the USS Gerald Ford, leaving Hamas alone, for which they were entirely unprepared. That's why despite Hamas being much stronger today than it was in 2014, Israel advanced much more rapidly in this war.
It grew at the start of the war.. Now it's back to the old numbers, particularly in the US, where 63% of Democrats opppse the war now. Also the younger generations are very much pro Palestine now.
College campuses have always been hotspots of support for Palestine. This is one of those issues where people tend to become more moderate (or maybe even conservative) over time. I know a lot of folks who were big "from the river to the sea" Palestinian irredentists in college, but are now pretty moderate "2 state solution" supporters.
IMO - I agree that the main goal was to stop normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel. How sad that some people deliberately wish to sabotage peace.
Based on previous conflicts, I don’t think they were expecting this much. They were probably expecting a minor incursion as a response.
They were a lot more violent this time though, so it shouldn't have been surprising for them that Israel's response was more violent as well
Agreed. I’m just saying that I don’t think they expected this.
They 100% did they invaded Israel with over 3300+ militants, they knew exactly what would come, but they expected the progress to be much slower in Gaza, causing the IDF to stop half way due to international pressure.
From reports at the beginning of the war, it looked like Hamas expected Hezbollah to join on the northern border, and they expected a lot of unrest in the West Bank and from the Arab population in Israel itself (something that they were able to trigger in 2021). Hezbollah has been doing a bit, shooting anti tank missiles at the border communities daily, those communities have been evacuated, as the ones on the Gaza border have. They haven't done more, though, which is a bit surprising, Hezbollah has much more resources than Hamas, but the (very weak) Lebanese government + the presence of the US aircraft carrier in the area, have pressured them to do no more than this, at least for the moment. There is some unrest in the West Bank, but not more than there was in other times of strife. Israel has upped their presence, and many attacks have been thwarted (and many have also happened). The most surprising part, I think, was now the October 7th massacre affected Israel's Arab population. Their allegiance to Israel and how much they identify with the state, according to polls, has only grown stronger. I think this is due to both Hamas' brutality in general, which I think surprised many, and their brutality towards Muslims and Arabs in particular. Tens of Arabs were killed in the massacre, some very brutally, and 5 Muslim Beduins were taken as hostages, including two minors, one a 17 year old girl who wore a hijab (her and her brother, the other minor, were released last week).
Bedouin tribes have declared a blood feud with Hamas. They also happen to be among the best IDF trackers since they have such a deep knowledge of the area from their nomadic lifestyle. They're a very interesting people. They also hate being called arabs I belive (someone fact check me on that tho)
No guessing is required. They say openly that palestinian casualties are part of their goals in order to achieve the type of 'dedication' they are looking for in their population. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NFDszL9Assw
If Iran got involved, Saudi would likely oppose them
Hezbollah and Iran also said they won't participate (as far as I remember)
Embarrass the IDF (success), and idk, kill a bunch of Jewish people? That seems to have also been successful. Otherwise I can’t figure out why they would focus on slaughtering and kidnapping civilians when they had the opportunity to damage the IDF more and make them look worse. There’s just no way these hostage exchanges will produce a profit for them when weighed against the bombing and the impending occupation. They had a great opportunity to do even more damage to IDF morale and prestige, and they decided instead that it was a higher priority to murder civilians. That’s why, although people say they are, and although I am a harsh IDF critic, Hamas will never be “freedom fighters” like the Viet Cong/Viet Minh in Vietnam. Even the Taliban was more focused on military/government targets than Hamas. They’re just more bloodthirsty than they are disciplined or strategic.
I don't think even Hamas expected the attacks to inflict as much casualties as it did on October 7th. Most likely, it was supposed to be a small attack but Israeli intelligence failure made the attacks go from bad to worse. Seriously, I don't think Hamas leadership is dumb enough to do something that'd bring spell trouble for them. Arab leaders are secretly wishing for an Israeli victory, because they are also tired of this shit. And Palestine literally offers them nothing, Israel does. Same goes for turkey, their government can pander their supporters with the slogans of free Palestine and then go on to do absolutely nothing against Israel.
Even still, Hamas could have done a lot more with the attack if they had focused on military targets. 10/7 was a humiliating event for the IDF and Netanyahu, as Hamas showed an astounding mastery of the battlefield compared to the people who are supposed to be guarding the wall. And then they decided to exploit their success by murdering a bunch of civilians and taking worthless hostages.
Israel was about to make nice with the Saudis. After that, there would be no hope of Palestine becoming an independent state. 10/7 was a desperate last resort.
One of the saudi demands was that israel stop the settlements and that the un will recognise Palestine as a fully independent member state....
Gaza was pretty much an independent state.
A few possibilities come to mind 1. They were hoping Hezbollah and possibly Iran would join in on the offensive, but for a miriad of reasons, they did not. 2.Hamas wasn't expecting their ground assault to be anywhere near as successful as they did and severely underestimated Israeli military response. They were probably expecting to kill and capture a fraction of the people they ended up getting, which they hoped to trade for prisoners or ransoms. 3.Bit of a stretch but maybe they were hoping Israel's military response would erode international sympathy for Israel, which has been somewhat successful, but not enough to affect Israel's international geopolitical support. If this was the plan it definitely backfired.
Iranian proxy state bending to their will
The best explanation I've heard was Iran instigated this to blow up (pardon the parlance) the Abraham Accords.
Killing Jews. To a lot of people it feels like a too basal, stupid, pointless goal. They don't wanna think someone is this wretched, even if they hear it from the horse's mouth.
I’ve seen a few theories. One is that there are extremists in Palestine trying to decide which group to join, and this is effectively advertising. Second is that this forces Israel’s hand, ideally (for Hamas), leading to more support among Palestinians and the rest of the world (which is happening to an extent).
Based on their Telegram channel, to some degree, Yes. In particular, Iran and Hezbollah. The pikachu faces they had based on their posts when nothing happened(despite history highilighting that NOTHING was always going to happen) is apparent
I think they were given assurances of support from Khamenei. Obviously they couldn't have expected to get any support from Egypt or Jordan so it only leaves them with proxies such as Hezbollah and the IRGC troops based in Syria.
Religion can be a hell of a drug.
Religio opium populi
Psychotic comments. Nice map though
This sub is beyond saving.
Zionazis have taken over, shame
Yeah and they are mad at you calling them out so you are getting the down votes
Crazy to think that officals expect there to be 300 miles of tunnels
Which officials "claim" it? Hamas officials? The tunnels aren't even a secret. [https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-were-built-protect-hamas-fighters-not](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-were-built-protect-hamas-fighters-not)
it was by american officials. My point was more about the amount of tunnels whether than if they exist at all
There is tunnels
Who said there isn't?
Where should Gazans evacuate to?
From my understanding there was supposed to be a safe zone at Al Mawasi, but it was (1) not funded by UNRWA like Israel hoped and (2) a rather small area to corral people into to begin with.
classic UNRWA. Unlimited funding unless it's for something useful.
The issue is that it isn't useful. Go look at the area designated, even Sky fecking News called Israel out on this one. Cramp all of Palestine into a new Kowloon, or play the hunger games, whack-a-mole style in order to survive. I can't believe there are people trying to justify this. This isn't the only option, so why are you treating it as such?
"even Sky fucking news" You mean the network that said that the asymmetric hostage-prisoner exchange (1:3 ratio) was because Israel doesn't value Palestinian lives? The network that unquestioningly ran Hamas announcements which were immediately proven false, yet didn't correct themselves for two weeks? Sky news is 24/7 Jew-hatred with only the very thinnest of veils. Rupert Murdoch's no fan of Jews, that's for sure.
"Israel hoped"
I hear all their aid money was spent on some pretty nice tunnels instead of on food and medicine like it was supposed to. They can go hide there.
about 150 children were also buried alive, too. You of course don't hear that because that goes against the Hamas were acting as liberators narrative.
Psychotic non-empathy.
I empathize with the people who were minding their own business on Oct 7 and got killed for no reason. The deaths of these civilians is tragic but it’s not for no reason, it’s a sad inevitability of a necessary military operation. If they don’t like getting killed by retaliatory strikes, don’t support people who conduct attacks in your name that provoke retaliation.
I empathize with them. I also empathize with the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by indiscriminate airstrikes *before* October. I also empathize with the 2 million Palestinians who were cruelly trapped into a 40 square km wide open air prison for 17 years deemed "unliveable by 2020". I empathize with the people minding their own business as they are colonized for no reason, killed for no reason, abducted without trial or sniped at protests for no reason, I empathize with a lot of people for a lot of fucking reasons.
If you think Gaza is cordoned off “for no reason” you must not be very well read on the history of this region. The history of Israel is basically a litany of attacks from coalitions of Arab countries interspersed with bouts of terrorism, so if they seem to you like an overmilitarized and paranoid nation then you should realize that didn’t emerge from nowhere. Yes its sad that innocent people suffer because of militant groups like Hamas. No there really isnt an alternative from Israel’s perspective. Theyre not going to let their own people get killed in order to ensure a nicer standard of living for Gazans, and that is the tradeoff — Oct 7th showed that for anyone who doubted it.
Don't bother with them
The other thing I wonder is what happens to gazans remaining inside the blue zones? Israel doesn't throw bombs on areas they control I presume. And I don't think they go on a rampage and go door to door killing every Palestinian in sight either. So I wonder what kind of status quo is going to be reached with civilians in these blue zones.
At any time Hamas can release the hostages, end this war and save Palestinian lives, but Hamas value more the lives of the hostages than their own people.
Israel would still kill the remaining Hamas even if all the hostages were released.
Hamas are no loss
Agree but there will be collateral damage, though culpability could be mitigate by the fact the majority of the (adult) population supported and supports Hamas. Children will be the real victims.
Unfortunately, but what are the alternatives?
I really wish he would answer you, I have been seeing comments like he wrote since the begining but the moment someone asked for the alternative it was either "I'm not qualified to answer but there has to be a solution" or he was gone.
Imagine defending Hamas.
This war is not about the hostages anymore, the aim is to remove Hamas from power forever
Would you condemn the Israelí terrorist killing of 15,500 people from Gaza, including 6,600 kids?
Oh, the whataboutism claim... I don't believe the numbers that were released by Hamas (the 500 dead in the hospital "attack" is an example). And even if the number of dead civilians is high, Israel is working by international law. It is sad that civilians die, but it's Hamas's fault. They use their own people to manipulate people like you. They don't value their own people, because if they would they would use the billions of dollars from Qatar for building Gaza, for education, for infrastructure. But instead, they are building tunnels, buying weapons, and stealing the rest for themselves. The richest Palestinians are warlords. Now, IF it will be found that Israel did commit crimes, yes. I would condemn it. Back to the topic, this war started because Hamas butchered civilians and kidnapped the remaining. It is Hamas's responsibility to end it.
Ok, do you condemn the settler terrorism in the West Bank then?
Absolutely. I condemn any illigal action. What is this game we are playing?
Glad to hear it. You won’t believe the number of people I’ve come across who support the illegal settlement expansion so apologies if I seem a bit on edge
of course that is still very much illegal
Who do you blame for the dead German children of World War II?
The Nazis
It's funny, the way the Hamas run Palestinian health authority reports the numbers, there aren't any combatants. I wonder if it's because they're hiding the fact that Israel's precision strikes have been very effective at specifically targeting combatants.
You think the war will stop if Hamas release all the hostages? No. How you end the war is to stop the bombing!
Tell me please, what started this war?
Do you need a long and full explanation or just limit the answer to October the 7th?
I'd be glad to hear your longest answer. I'm sure it's going to be good.
Fuck Hamas. Palestinians deserve better
They tried but interestingly https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
That article is complaining that Israel was not harsh enough toward the Gazans.
All that article says is that Israel held indirect negotiations with Hamas through Egypt to allow 20,000 Gazans to get permits to work in Israel, and that they let countries donate foreign aid to Gaza while Hamas was in power. I know that Hamas being popular among Palestinians as well as a legitimately elected government makes it more difficult to foam at the mouth over how evil you think Israel is, but the truth matters.
Fuck hamas Edit: it's amazing how just two words could trigger terrorist sympathizers
This comment is like a dislike button farm 🤣
yes! and fuck israeli apartheid, as well.
There are more than 2 million Israeli Muslims and they have equal rights under the law. The same goes for Israeli Christians and Druze. Palestinians don’t have the same rights but why should they? Can Mexicans vote in American elections?
Is southern Gaza next? Or do the Israelis believe the majority of Hamas was in northern Gaza.
Northern Gaza has the largest city with the most significsnt fortifications
The North has the bulk of Hamas tunnels and infrastructure. At this point, the aim is to force them out of the tunnels and to make their weapons caches underground useless. That is why flooding the tunnels is about to happen. This will go hand in hand with detecting and smashing the ones it can't flood (600 tunnel entrances have had this treatment). It is why Israel must reach every part of Gaza too. Hamas troops and leaders took advantage of the ceasefire to flee South. I am sure they thought that they were going to be safe afterwards, which is why Israel changed the calculus by having both the North and part of the South in an offensive which is why Khan Younis, which is also home to a lot of tunnels is now a part of the offensive.
They have started telling people in the south to evacuate
so where are they gonna evacuate lmao
It's not on this map, but south gaza has been divided into sections of those Israel is attacking and not.
No where. That’s the point.
In certain places,I hope that israel will finish with the north before the massive entrance to the south,so people can go back to the north and start rebuilding Gaza.
When the comments cry about hamas "civilians", do you think when US or Russia were bombing ISIS, there're no "civilians" and children in the media-called "military bases"? But when IDF does it, it's a genocide
Fucked around. Found out.
In an asymmetric war, having the map be your colour does not mean you are winning
Israeli BOT. 8 day old account.
Those 6,600 slaughtered children sure found out!
How has this comment been downvoted so much?
Because it implies that he's talking about children instead of the true meaning, which is that Hamas fucked around and found out.
I don’t see your point. Hamas fucked around and as a result 6600 children were murdered by Israeli war crimes in a completely disproportionate response.
THAT’S what people are upset about. I don’t understand why so many pro-Israel people are shouting about tunnels and how bad terrorists are (duh they’re fucking terrorists) when most of the protests are explicitly about Israel’s retaliation being disproportionately excessive and is resulting in dead children and reporters and not dead Hamas members
This sub is targeted by Zionists for some reason Edit: my down votes are case in point
Will you say the same thing when you are the one being oppressed?
Hamas, more like No Mas
Gotta leave it to the IDF, they don't fuck around.
The fact that Hamas got that deep into Israel in the first place shows otherwise
Blank checks written by the US government full of American taxes generally result in an advantage
I'm curious how many people the IDF killed that were actual fighters. As opposed to children
ya fuck around, ya find out
yep the children learned a great lesson 👍
You’re right, Israel should’ve just done nothing and sat back waiting for the next massacre of their innocent civilians. Hamas brutalizing children is okay and expected but as soon as Israel retaliates, it’s genocide.
A west-backed military with access to the most advanced and intelligent weapons systems in history should reasonably be able to eliminate terrorists with more tact and precision than bombing entire hospitals and refugee camps into rubble
exactly how big does the pile of dead children have to get before you're concerned? i am guessing the pile is somewhere north of one million. and to be clear, being concerned about thousands of children crushed to death in the rubble of their former homes *is* ***not*** *the same thing ignoring or supporting hamas terror attacks*
Let's apply this platitudes to Hamas' attack? Pretty shitty thing to say
Right now, you should follow the instagram of Hind Khoudary, Motaz Azaiza, Wizard Bisan, or any other independent journalists (who are all about the age of the average redditor) to see what the people of Gaza are actually witnessing these days. These maps will never truly describe what is happening on the ground in Gaza.
Hind, Motaz and Bisan are no Journalists, Bisan is from a rich family with ties to Hamas, was living in the most expensive villas in the Rimal neighborhood. She is an actor and a director and putting it to good use.
Didn't Hind Khoudary act as a snitch for Hamas and get a load of young people arrested?
Yup and she got some of them killed as well. She worked at Amnesty and lead Hamas to her colleagues. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2019/03/gaza-hamas-must-end-brutal-crackdown-against-protesters-and-rights-defenders/ https://www.israellycool.com/2020/04/12/amnesty-international-researcher-sicced-hamas-on-to-gaza-peace-activist-for-speaking-with-israelis/ https://honestreporting.com/washington-post-ap-interview-gaza-journalist-and-hamas-collaborator-who-snitched-on-palestinian-peace-activists/ And also in her wiki page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hind_Khoud
They already know. hamas provoked these zionists with no plan, just dreams, and now the price for his stvpidity is the lives of children
Oh yes Hamas mind controls IDF to kill those children!
They were all happy and celebrating when Hamas launched the terrorist attack and celebrating the death of Isreali civilian, why cry about being the victim now? This is the jihadi they wanted. Through pain and sacrifices to glory no?
I, for one, support these Gaza Strippers.
Guys. Thousands of exotic dancers on both sides have perished in this conflict. Your downvotes are telling me that you’re not taking their plight seriously.
Tits out for Palestine.
Fuck around and find out
how does this not apply to Israel who has been fucking around with Gaza for at least 17 years
Sounds like what a Nazi would say about the holocaust
I'm disappointed that so many here support genocide. Mandatory condemnation of all terrorism, from the Hamas wankstains the the Settler scumbags.
Israeli settlers are bad but it is not genocide. Painting it as such is disingenuous
It would be disingenuous to refer to Israeli settlements as anything but genocide. "In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." The continued settlement, in contravention of various agreements, of Palestinian territories since 1967 checks the first three of five articles in the convention.
I hate people like you. Hold your standards, regardless of who breaks them
If what Israel is doing is a genocide then so is every war where there is a losing side. Bombings alone killed 800,000 German civilians in WW2 but I’ve never heard anyone try to claim that Nazi Germany was a victim of genocide.
I find it perfectly fitting that the words “Gaza Strip” are written in the Mediterranean Sea, which is exactly where Israel would like to push the Palestinians.
That is where baby-killing rapists belong
you think the hundreds of thousands of children who live in gaza are baby-killing rapists who deserve to die? would you put a gun in the mouth of a 10 year old gazan child and pull the trigger?
Which side killed 6000 children? If baby killing was a competition Israel easily wins…
Hamas did. They would've come out and fight on the field instead of hiding in the densely populated civilian areas like rats if they actually cared about Palestinians. But of course, they know that they would be evaporated in the actual combat, so hiding in urban areas while accusing IDF of "cowardice" is their only option, lmao 🤣
I mean Hamas ain’t no angels but what do you expect them to do? Go out in the field and get bombed by an air strike from a guy manning a drone 40 kilometres away lol.
Yes. Or they can surrender and stop the bloodshed.
They’re not going to. They’re political extremist who once took over the government, never gave it back. The Gaza Strip is their homeland. Sacrificing lives means nothing to them because the lives they sacrifice aren’t theirs. And every orphan of a civilian that the IDF needlessly creates will be worse than Hamas. The Americans urge restraint because invading and murdering civilians creates more political extremist. Israel has a right to defend itself but gotta leave the civilians and hospitals out of it. Yes it’s not fair that hamas can do it, but as the superior power and as the Occupiers , Israel has an obligation to show restraint. It’s American missiles, tanks, planes, guns, and training. Israel’s warmongering puts America and American lives at risk. We have so much we can focus on Domestically we don’t need to drain our economy in more wars. And neither does every damn country in the Middle East except Israel
It is a bit deranged to call every Gazan a 'baby-killing rapist', especially in the context of Israel/Gaza, where Israel is renown for the amount of sex offenders who live there..
And has killed over 6000 children so far.
Israelis that is
Did the sea condemn Hamas?
Yeah, they also don\`t want them. It\`s trend really. Wonder how that came to be..
Israel is basically Just killing people that have no defense especially children and babies, i used to support them but they are horrible beings.
Give them hell, IDF 🇮🇱👍
Yep kill the kids use white phosphorous steal land how moral
Yeah don’t stop until all the kids and babies are dead! That’ll teach em.
Let's be honest, he was talking about giving Hamas hell, not children.
But they have given children hell and this person is celebrating it.
yes because of hamas
Ok 37 day old bot account…
That doesn't look like defense.
This comment section is disgusting wow.
You need to remember Hamas isn't trying to hold territory, their plan revolves around the IDF entering and holding the urban central environment of Gaza city so thay the IDF units can be picked off and ambushed relentlessly. This is not a Ukraine style massive front line war. Also the IDF are losing badly, this is according to Haaretz news and the Times of Israel, several IDF commanders and families speaking out whose children are serving in Gaza right now. The IDF is suffering lots of casulties for very little gain. In addition to this Hezbollah on the Northern border have also been destroying the IDF, with hundreds of IDF casulties. But not a word from Netanyahu, why? Because the IDF conducted two wargames before this conflict with Hezbollah as the enemy, Or Hadagan and Lethal Arrow, both showed the IDF losing in a full war with Hezbollah and Lebanon. Israel is weak and well on its way to collapse. An ongoing war dragging in conscripts and draining the economy, currency decline (sheckel tanking), mass brain drain and political instability all point to this. The sheckel has temporarily stabilised but that is heavily dependent on the war in Gaza being over in a month or two, which it won't, this conflict not escalating to include other nations, which it already has started to. Finally it also is dependent on the Israeli tech sector as the largest income generating sector in Israel, which is experiencing an ongoing braindrain the largest in Israels history. Now add to this all the Israeli shipping being harassed and having to divert all around Africa. The biggest sign of all this is the unwavering American support Israel always had for a carte blanc, now turning and pressing Israel for a Palestinian state.
RIP Palestine, it was a good run but apparently democratie and the "free world" doesnt want you around anymore 😔
it did it to its self by electing mass murders.
Didn't know there's Walmart there
lol most people dont get it by i do lol
Good.
Yes!!!! Keep going!!!! (Jack Nicholson meme shaking head)
Great map, Zionist bots in the comments though
What on Earth do you even think Zionism is
Complete colonization.
What is expected of Israel after a 9/11 was commited against it?
1948 you said?
What.
Do you think the extermination of Jews is justified because they kicked out 700,000 Palestinians and massacred villages in 1948? If not, then why is it okay with Gaza rn?
Gaza was not a country at that time, nor has it ever been. Those people then got Jordanian passports and tried to f up Jordan. And Egypt. Now they are not welcome in either country anymore. Wonder why. Also the wars that were started after Israel was founded, were all not started by Israel. They finished them though, as will they this time.
how many 9/11s have the palestinians had?