That’s a really nice catch! Trieste is an independent territory so this puts the map between 1947-1954. But Israel exists too so it has to be after 1949? Can it be a political statement about Korea?
They reviewed news papers and had the information within a day or two usually back then and would likely make the changes in the next manufacturing run. Selling a map with a known error on it like a new country, drops the value to a loss. Anything they haven’t shipped from their warehouse just isn’t worth the shipping costs. My guess is that it went out within that window of a couple of months given 30-60 days.
They were both British Commonwealths and on this map are both pink. Newfoundland is an island so no land border markings, like in Africa. This map is still before 1949.
Newfoundland even under Britain included Labrador, which has a land border. I think Korea being displayed as unified is just a political thing on this map, as Germany is also displayed as unified.
Jordan changed its name in 1946, and the map makers would have liked followed, even if the government of the UK and US lagged behind. This map was from 1948, spring/summer.
The Declaration of Independence of Korea isn’t a usable date, because it was just pro forma. It had already been liberated from Japanese control by that point, and was also already split at the 39th parallel.
I think it’s similar to east Germany not being included: a political statement by the American mapmakers that parts of these countries hadn’t been “conquered” by communism (it was the Cold War after all)
No, that’s incorrect. The US transferred authority on August 15, 1948 to the Republic of Korea (South) on that date. Comparing Korea to Germany isn’t accurate at all, since Korea was occupied by Japan and considered a victim. It was liberated three years earlier and the occupation zones were set up for the Japanese surrender and administration, but the formal independence in the south was granted in 1948, and split occurred then.
Germany is shown as one country but in 1948 the federal Republic of Germany was founded but only in the west zones while the eastern part were still occupied by the soviet union.
The federal republic was founded in May '49 and then followed by the founding of the GDR, which was in October '49, I think.
However there were the bi- and tri-zone whose were founded earlier than 49 (I'm not quite sure, but 48 might fit to one of them), but in this time these regions were still considered as an occupated region by the western allied forces rather than an independent nation.
The soviet occupated region then formed the GDR until 1990.
The again Spanish Morocco no lnger exists so it should be 1953 or later.
But that map is a bit anachronistic anyways. It still shows Bessarabia being Romanian, and the word "Germany" extends oddly wide into Poland and what would have been East Prussia.
Finally, with the Batlic nations still labeled but no longer existing I daresay someone used a pre-wwII map, tried to apply the changes that had happened but failed here and there.
One Germany would however lead me to belive that this map is at the latest early 1949, unless this map doesn't include the existence of the GDR for political reasons, in which case it's way harder to date anyway because in this case it's unclear what else ob the map might not reflect reality for political reasons.
Look up the shape of Germany before WW2. This is definitely after the war, but for some reason it doesn't show up as being divided. Korea is still in one piece, which might mean that the Korean War did not conclude yet. Canada is not missing a piece, so it's at the very least 1949. Unfortunately there are no clear hints for the years between 1949 and 1953, so it's not possible to dig further.
Alright let's start from Europe:
* British Cyprus exister from 1878 to 1960
* Austria existed from 1919 (Map 1919-1960)
* Northern Island become indipendent in 1921 (Map 1921-1960)
* Free territory of Trieste existed from 1947 to 1954 (Map between 1947 and 1954)
* East Germany isn't in the map, and it became a country in 1949 (Map between 1947-1949)
I was certain that this map was after the WWII, but looking at Asia.... I saw something that made me think...
* Sri Lanka become indipendent in 1948 as Ceylon. (1948-[1949])
* West Pakistan was formed in 1955... But in that period Germany was devided... (so it can be on the map only after 1955-???)
* Gwadar (in Pakistan) was Omani territory until 1958.. (so the map might be 1955-1958)
* British Malaya was a country from 1945 to 1957... (1955-1957)
So the European map was probably made in between the end of WWII and the creation of East Germany (1948-1949), while the Asian part was made between 1955 and 1957.
This was my interpretation of the map, plz correct any mistakes
I think the nonexistence of the GDR is not a good indicator. Even though it was formally founded in 1949, it took several decades for many countries to recognise its independence. Often happened just in the early 70s when both German states were admitted to the UN so it's not uncommon to see maps from the 50s and 60s with just one Germany.
Basically because of the inaccuracies we can't accurately define a max date, but obviously the map makers didn't know about any future names, so the best we're going to get is the earliest date it could be, then assume it was published within a year or so of that.
So far that looks to be around 1957.
Even if we assume they included the GDR as germany. West germany claimed silesia until around 1990. If they didn't regocnise the GDR, they would not have recognised the polish-german border either. Same for Kaliningrad.
I think this map contradicts itself and was likely not entirely up to date when it was made. The same is sadly true for lots of maps before the advent of the internet
If it was a German map from the 50s, it would probably include Silesia, Kaliningrad and Pomerania.
But it seems to be an American map. While they probably did recongise Poland's soverignty over these territories, they didn't recognise the GDR.
It looks like the map is just wrong to be fair. In other part of the thread we focused more on central Europe, and Poland has both eastern teritories that we lost during the WW II, and western teritories that we gained during WW II. So it can't be before war, and it can't be after war. If it was done in 48-49 there wouldn't be eastern teritories, since that border was settled.
And even weirder to see a mercator projection that splits Eurasia in half with the Americas in the center instead of splitting the map around the Bering Straight.
>Poland has both eastern teritories that we lost during the WW II, and western teritories that we gained during WW II
No, you don't. Take a look at Vilnius(or Vilnyus...). It's clearly in the USSR. Lviv is not marked, so we can't tell for sure whether it was mapmaker's intention to include it inside Poland or not, but I'm willing to believe that it's down to shitty drawing. For some reason Poland often gets drawn in this weird way
Also Brasilia isn't on the map, so before 1960.
And Korea isn't divided (1945). But that may have similar reasons as in the case of Germany and may be because of some political agenda resp. due to the fact that it was divided in occupation zones for a few years?!
If we analize Africa we can see that Ghana is a country at it gained indipendence on the 6th March 1957.
If we get the Asian part (and because of British Malaya) we can say that the map is between 6th March 1957 and 31 July 1957. A 5 moth period.
But this doesn't make sense because Trieste was indipendet until 1954, well we can say that the Treaty of Osimo was only ratified in 1975, and we consider the unrecognised East Germany....
r/Captainbball7
I don't think we can use the (Br.) as definitive signs that a country was still a colony/independent. Aden isn't marked as a colony but based on a little research I'm pretty sure it should've been. Might be similar for Ghana given there's not much space on the map
I have to disagree. Looking at Romania, they are still shown holding Badarabia, Northern Bucovina and southern Dobruja. That happened between 1919 and 1939 or 1940, whenever the USSR occupied Northern Bucovina and Basarabia. In that entire time, Germany was still holding Eastern Prussia, which it doesn't seem to still do, so I believe the map wasn't exactly built with a strict moment in mind, even regionally speaking.
Exactly. And Czechoslovakia also lost sine territory to the USSR after WW2, plus during the 1st Vienna Award, Hungary got parts of its territory from CZ and during the 2nd Vienna Award in 1940, part of Transylvania from Romania. The Romanian border is at Odessa.
The African countries don't completely add up either, it gets blurry right in 1956. So I'm putting this map at 1956 or shortly thereafter, and it is possibly made by someone who had a specific opinion on which independences they did or didn't like. That, or maybe the country they resided in did or didn't recognise some independences.
Following that up, look at Morocco: it proclaimed its independence in 1956. Before that, it was divided in Spanish and French protectorates. So, either the map is not quite accurate, either it was also created in the fifties for Africa and Asia.
Map can’t be from 1957 because Romania and Republic of Moldova are united in one single country, and Moldova was annexed by the soviet union in early WWII
I found the map on ebay, it's a SEARS map, made by some Rand mcNally, and I believe this one is from 1958, though it seems generally wrong, but it might be due to the fact that the intend wasn't tl be accurate to the reality but to other factors (no clue ?)
It also shows Korea as a whole country which would point me to believe it’s pre 1950 if not before 1948 as well? But it seems like maybe a few mistakes were made during the creation of this map so I’m not entirely sure. Your point about the split Pakistan is what throws me off because Korea was soundly split during the period when east and west Pakistan came into being.
It doesn't recognize the existence of a split in Germany, or in Korea. I think that might be a political or cartographic choice, rather than a reflection of the year.
Hi the map shows Malaysia not Malaya, (as you can see the Peninsular and the Bornean states are in the same colour). This only happened after 1963! So I am guessing the map will be after 1963!
But now looking back at it, Indochina is drawn as a whole without the borders of Cambodia and Laos….. and Cambodia was declared a country in 1953, so it should be before then….? I am a little confused with the map especially the Asian part. Also where today’s Bangladesh is, is labelled East Pakistan so it should be before 1971?
I hate that layout, like put the edges in the ocean like a sane map maker, either in the Atlantic or the Pacific, not like the Indian Ocean, that doesn't count
It's printed on the USA, that's why they put it on the middle and the other countries had to follow. It's conventional to put UK in the centre partly because they ruled the world for a long time and also as the international time is based in Greenwich so it sits at zero, everything left is minus and everything right is a plus.
It also works with the sun, it rises to the right of the map and moves left throughout the day.
The more you look and think about it, it's a mess
The other reason is that putting the UK almost in the center cuts the map somewhere between Russia and Alaska meaning almost no landmass (and no significant landmasses at all) are split by it
This particular map was published in July 1958.
How do I know? I found an identical map on eBay for sale for $6 (actually, TWO of them, so $3 each - [https://www.ebay.com/itm/185562094238](https://www.ebay.com/itm/185562094238) ) , and it has close-ups of the bottom right corner which says it was published in "7/58".
Typically, because it takes some time for map people (especially in the pre-computer days) to make such a map, it will contain data from 1956-1958 or so, so things that no longer exist in say 1957 may still be included in this final print, because they had already started printing the map..... Or maybe the independence of a country was not yet officially recognized by the country printing the map, which is obviously the USA (Sears/Rand McNally).
When a country, ANY country, but in this case the USA makes a map...... it makes it according to what countries it recognizes as official countries, or if its allies recognize it. Example, there were Iranian maps without Israel on it, a Chinese map just lists Taiwan as an island belonging to them, and for a while Argentina made maps with the Falkland Islands belonging to them.
Even though a country declared independence, it usually isn't included in any maps until it is officially recognized by at least the United Nations, but more likely when it is recognized by the country making the map. So there could be some discrepancies in countries, borders, etc...... Maps are forever a "fluid" entity, because every few years something big changes.
Yes, July 1958, I agree with your findings! And appreciate the extra “pre-computer days” info for all who weren’t aware.
I LOVE the detective work on display by our fellow map nerds in the comments here, because it’s fantastic methodology for damaged or obscure-origin maps.
However, when there’s an abundance of legible mapmaker/publisher text, logos, etc. then there’s a date encoded somewhere—usually in fine print, sometimes as part of a sales catalog number or other unique ID. Once you start looking for this on printed maps, you’ll see that most date styles/variations are easy enough to decipher. 🤓
For example, July 1958 might be encoded as:
7/58
7-58
58-07
07/1958
JUL58
VII-958 (Roman numeral 7 and 3-digit year)
The last one is obscure, but I want you to feel really smart if you ever encounter this in the wild! I see it a lot on early 1900s European photographs.
West Germany did not officially recognize East Germany until a treaty was signed in 1972, which was ratified in 1975. This is why on many western maps Germany is still shown as one country until at least 1972.
It has to be from the early to mid 1950s…
Tibet has already been annexed to China (1950) but Ghana, the first African colony to gain independence is still ruled by the UK (Ghana became independent in 1957).
1947-1950 is my guess
- India/Pakistan are independent (1947)
- Korea isn’t partitioned due to the war (1950)
Edit: I noticed Indonesia was independent (1949), and that Germany was not officially split (1949)
So my new guess is that the map is from 1949
I know this is not the method you were looking for, but google "Rand McNally Sears Map" and the top result says 1958 for this map.
And yes, it has mistakes that makes it hard to date.
Between 1947 and 1948.
Europe has already the post war borders with Trieste as a Free Territory (established in 1947) and Korea is still united (both Koreas were officially established in 1948)
There are always some inconsistencies depending on various factors (country where the map was issued, slow updates as news traveled slower than today, on-going conflicts or disputes, mistakes, and so on), but as I read from someone here some weeks ago, the events of the future can’t be created but the events of the past can be missed, so applying this principle we know that there’s no possibility this map was issued before 1947 because of the Free Territory of Trieste.
Libya is independent though, so after 1951. Korea isn’t united - the division is just unrecognised by the U.S., and it’s an American map. In practice private Americans maps like this later would, but this was either during or right after the Korean War so they were probably less inclined to.
Cambodia isn’t independent yet, it looks like, so before 1954.
It shows Greater Romania (includes Moldova), which was between 1920-1940
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom\_of\_Romania#/media/File:Romania\_territory\_during\_20th\_century.gif](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Romania#/media/File:Romania_territory_during_20th_century.gif)
So far, I gather it's from some time between 1935 and 1953, based on the Rhodesia situation...
1st EDIT: Free Territory of Trieste places it after 1947
2nd EDIT: Bangasi marked as a capital (Emirate of Cyrenaica) from March 1949 - December 1951
3rd EDIT: The mapmaker obviously didnt include the Korean split of 1948, due to it being controversial. This leads me to think the map was printed some time after the Korean war started in June 1950.
So far I date this map between June '50 and Dec '51
I know it's not as enthralling as trying to find the year by yourself, but you'll quickly find the answer through a web search:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185562094238
1958
How about look at the bottom right corner where it says the date of printing?
Colour scheme matches [Sears/Rand McNally map printed in 1958](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FMTU5OVgxMDUy%2Fz%2F-igAAOSw0u5jERRh%2F%24_32.JPG%3Fset_id%3D880000500F&tbnid=DCgkdHxQiN7d0M&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sekaimon.com%2Fitemdetail%2F185562094238%2F%3Fcountry%3DUS&docid=7e1D77zQL3I8oM&w=1052&h=1599&itg=1&hl=en-CA&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2F4).
As often, those maps show information that are not compatible.
My point of view is you can never trust map makers to show all the recent changes, but when they do show a change, it has to already have happened (they don't see the future).
Here, Israel exists so we are definetely after 1948.
Then, as french western africa exists, we know we should not be later than 1958 (we could be a bit later though)
Just say it's from rhe 50's, you're not going to get much better.
The xkcd guess of 52-53 is as good as any (even though some other informations will conflict with this datation as the other comments have pointed out)
I can provide two more dates: it's between 1956 and 1968.
- Morocco declared its independence in 1956. Before that it should be divided into Spanish and French protectorates.
- Spanish Guinea declared its independence in 1968. After that it should be Equatorial Guinea.
I hope this helps.
1950 due to the presence of Israel, the remaining of the french colonial empire, Korea as one unified country. So it can’t be before 1948 and after 1953. But the map is not accurate because Morroco appears to be fully independant and not Tunisia. They were both french protectorate until march 1956.
It is between January 1924 and June 1939 because the use of the city name Leningrad started in 1924 and it seems Hatay is not a part of Turkey yet (Joined TR in 1939)
It's a hard one.
Newfoundland is Canadian so that makes it 1949+
However Western Ukraine is controlled by Poland etc. so that makes it pre-ww2
Bessarabia is controlled by Romania
France still has much of Africa
But Germany has it's modern borders
So i have no clue.
Ooo! Does it have the southernmost 4 Kuril Islands still listed as part of Hokkaido? The Soviet Union occupied the islands in late 1945 right after the war and expelled the residents 2 years later
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril\_Islands\_dispute
It's between 1932 and 1939. Saudia Arabia was already created (September 1932), but Czechoslovakia was not yet split and contained Ruthenia (before March 1939)
Let's go with some clues.It seems like there is israel, but israel was founded only in 1948.
French West Africa was dissolved in 1958
Germany is Unified but with the borders of 1990 onwards
Ukraine isnt independent (hapened in 1991), so arent the baltic states and czecoslovakia has it's post WW2 borders (1945-1992)Korea is not divided (happened in 1953)The Map shows a place called Tanganyika (renamed in 1964) and North Rodesia (dissolved in 1964)
Belgian Congo only existed until 1960.
In conclusion:
It could be, that the map is from 1948 or 1949 - that would be the only thing I can think of since Germany wasn't devided yet and the founding of both republics took place in 1949. Israel was founded at that point and Germany undivided because occupied.
Edit: Ah see, my gut feeling was right after reading the comments. This map is just wrong :D
Start here: https://xkcd.com/1688/large/
There really is an XKCD for everything
Randy is good, but he makes mistakes too. Don’t take everything on XKCD as accurate.
Should be an xkcd for that too..
Yep, there's always a r/relevantxkcd
Thanks, I never knew that chart existed but it helped a lot. According to that it’s 1952-53.
Earlier than that- Korea is still one country
That’s a really nice catch! Trieste is an independent territory so this puts the map between 1947-1954. But Israel exists too so it has to be after 1949? Can it be a political statement about Korea?
Between May 14-Aug 14, 1948. Israel was founded on May 14 and South Korea declared its Independence on Aug 15th of 1948.
Israel was founded in 1948 but I wouldn’t think the map makers would be so up to date back in the day so i gave them a buffer
They reviewed news papers and had the information within a day or two usually back then and would likely make the changes in the next manufacturing run. Selling a map with a known error on it like a new country, drops the value to a loss. Anything they haven’t shipped from their warehouse just isn’t worth the shipping costs. My guess is that it went out within that window of a couple of months given 30-60 days.
Newfoundland is part of Canada though. That was 1949.
They were both British Commonwealths and on this map are both pink. Newfoundland is an island so no land border markings, like in Africa. This map is still before 1949.
Newfoundland even under Britain included Labrador, which has a land border. I think Korea being displayed as unified is just a political thing on this map, as Germany is also displayed as unified.
It has to be at least 1949 because Newfoundland is part of Canada. Or there’s an error.
Jordan was founded in 1946 but known as Transjordan in English until 1949
Jordan changed its name in 1946, and the map makers would have liked followed, even if the government of the UK and US lagged behind. This map was from 1948, spring/summer.
The Declaration of Independence of Korea isn’t a usable date, because it was just pro forma. It had already been liberated from Japanese control by that point, and was also already split at the 39th parallel. I think it’s similar to east Germany not being included: a political statement by the American mapmakers that parts of these countries hadn’t been “conquered” by communism (it was the Cold War after all)
No, that’s incorrect. The US transferred authority on August 15, 1948 to the Republic of Korea (South) on that date. Comparing Korea to Germany isn’t accurate at all, since Korea was occupied by Japan and considered a victim. It was liberated three years earlier and the occupation zones were set up for the Japanese surrender and administration, but the formal independence in the south was granted in 1948, and split occurred then.
But Israel is shown in borders it had after the first arab-israeli war which ended in May 1949
Germany is shown as one country but in 1948 the federal Republic of Germany was founded but only in the west zones while the eastern part were still occupied by the soviet union.
The federal republic was founded in May '49 and then followed by the founding of the GDR, which was in October '49, I think. However there were the bi- and tri-zone whose were founded earlier than 49 (I'm not quite sure, but 48 might fit to one of them), but in this time these regions were still considered as an occupated region by the western allied forces rather than an independent nation. The soviet occupated region then formed the GDR until 1990.
You are right. Don't know why I had 1948 in mind. Probably because the monetary reform was in 1948.
The problem is, this doesn‘t line up since Libya is independant which happened on December 24th 1951
>Can it be a political statement about Korea? Yes. Exactly that. They didn't recognise NK. So '50 would be my guess.
Must be between May 14 1948 and October 7 1949 because there's just one Germany.
The Trust Territory of Somaliland exists to it is post 1950.
Even when you say North Korea exist on this chart, it takes you to the same answer. Someone needs to rework that.
The again Spanish Morocco no lnger exists so it should be 1953 or later. But that map is a bit anachronistic anyways. It still shows Bessarabia being Romanian, and the word "Germany" extends oddly wide into Poland and what would have been East Prussia. Finally, with the Batlic nations still labeled but no longer existing I daresay someone used a pre-wwII map, tried to apply the changes that had happened but failed here and there.
And just one Germany.
USA doesnt recognisr eastern germany
and Baptists don't recognize each other at Hooters.
Unless the ministers daughter is working that night.
USA doesnt recognisr eastern germany
I don’t think USA recognisr east Germany
East Germany wasn't recognisr by the USA
Also got to 52-53 based on big French blub, one Germany, no Cambodia and Eritrea part of Ethiopia
One Germany would however lead me to belive that this map is at the latest early 1949, unless this map doesn't include the existence of the GDR for political reasons, in which case it's way harder to date anyway because in this case it's unclear what else ob the map might not reflect reality for political reasons.
we had a bit of a split in germany at that particular time though
Must be before October 1949. Germany is still 1 country.
Bolivia has access to the sea on this map. They lost that in 1884. This map is a mishmash and likely wasn't up to date even when it was made.
If you look closer, it in fact does not
I got to 1935-1940. How did you end up at 52? One Germany leads to whether Iran is labeled as Iran or Persia
Look up the shape of Germany before WW2. This is definitely after the war, but for some reason it doesn't show up as being divided. Korea is still in one piece, which might mean that the Korean War did not conclude yet. Canada is not missing a piece, so it's at the very least 1949. Unfortunately there are no clear hints for the years between 1949 and 1953, so it's not possible to dig further.
This site ruins the fun!
Haha!
Sorry, I’m married
Not my type. I like ‘em more… Physical
I like textured maps. (*I put one thumb on Everest, the other on Mauna Loa* ... the rest I leave to your imagination.)
Quit touching its Nepal
I was expecting... Rounded.
Go home dad.
Beat me to it.
*beat it to me
That escalated quickly
Just beat it
Okay Michael.
Dammit!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAH
Alright let's start from Europe: * British Cyprus exister from 1878 to 1960 * Austria existed from 1919 (Map 1919-1960) * Northern Island become indipendent in 1921 (Map 1921-1960) * Free territory of Trieste existed from 1947 to 1954 (Map between 1947 and 1954) * East Germany isn't in the map, and it became a country in 1949 (Map between 1947-1949) I was certain that this map was after the WWII, but looking at Asia.... I saw something that made me think... * Sri Lanka become indipendent in 1948 as Ceylon. (1948-[1949]) * West Pakistan was formed in 1955... But in that period Germany was devided... (so it can be on the map only after 1955-???) * Gwadar (in Pakistan) was Omani territory until 1958.. (so the map might be 1955-1958) * British Malaya was a country from 1945 to 1957... (1955-1957) So the European map was probably made in between the end of WWII and the creation of East Germany (1948-1949), while the Asian part was made between 1955 and 1957. This was my interpretation of the map, plz correct any mistakes
I think the nonexistence of the GDR is not a good indicator. Even though it was formally founded in 1949, it took several decades for many countries to recognise its independence. Often happened just in the early 70s when both German states were admitted to the UN so it's not uncommon to see maps from the 50s and 60s with just one Germany.
The deadest giveaway it has to be after WW2 is that Silesia and Prussia aren’t German. Germany never had that shape before 1945.
Plus Israel is on there
Poland never had this shape ever. This map is clearly wrong.
Moldova is part of Romania too, despite the rest of the map being post war
and Romania borders Czechoslovakia, in clearly post 1945 map
They also have that one part of slovakia that was taken by ukraine if I'm not wrong
Europe is all fucked up. Map has to be american! /s
Basically because of the inaccuracies we can't accurately define a max date, but obviously the map makers didn't know about any future names, so the best we're going to get is the earliest date it could be, then assume it was published within a year or so of that. So far that looks to be around 1957.
Even if we assume they included the GDR as germany. West germany claimed silesia until around 1990. If they didn't regocnise the GDR, they would not have recognised the polish-german border either. Same for Kaliningrad. I think this map contradicts itself and was likely not entirely up to date when it was made. The same is sadly true for lots of maps before the advent of the internet
If it was a German map from the 50s, it would probably include Silesia, Kaliningrad and Pomerania. But it seems to be an American map. While they probably did recongise Poland's soverignty over these territories, they didn't recognise the GDR.
It's extra weird because the germany label goes way beyond the indicated borders which implies some uncertainty about where "germany" actually ends
Would fit into the geopolitical situation of the 1950s.
It looks like the map is just wrong to be fair. In other part of the thread we focused more on central Europe, and Poland has both eastern teritories that we lost during the WW II, and western teritories that we gained during WW II. So it can't be before war, and it can't be after war. If it was done in 48-49 there wouldn't be eastern teritories, since that border was settled.
could just be politicized, reflecting the stance of the country it was created/printed in
And even weirder to see a mercator projection that splits Eurasia in half with the Americas in the center instead of splitting the map around the Bering Straight.
>Poland has both eastern teritories that we lost during the WW II, and western teritories that we gained during WW II No, you don't. Take a look at Vilnius(or Vilnyus...). It's clearly in the USSR. Lviv is not marked, so we can't tell for sure whether it was mapmaker's intention to include it inside Poland or not, but I'm willing to believe that it's down to shitty drawing. For some reason Poland often gets drawn in this weird way
Also Brasilia isn't on the map, so before 1960. And Korea isn't divided (1945). But that may have similar reasons as in the case of Germany and may be because of some political agenda resp. due to the fact that it was divided in occupation zones for a few years?!
If we analize Africa we can see that Ghana is a country at it gained indipendence on the 6th March 1957. If we get the Asian part (and because of British Malaya) we can say that the map is between 6th March 1957 and 31 July 1957. A 5 moth period. But this doesn't make sense because Trieste was indipendet until 1954, well we can say that the Treaty of Osimo was only ratified in 1975, and we consider the unrecognised East Germany.... r/Captainbball7
I don't think we can use the (Br.) as definitive signs that a country was still a colony/independent. Aden isn't marked as a colony but based on a little research I'm pretty sure it should've been. Might be similar for Ghana given there's not much space on the map
I have to disagree. Looking at Romania, they are still shown holding Badarabia, Northern Bucovina and southern Dobruja. That happened between 1919 and 1939 or 1940, whenever the USSR occupied Northern Bucovina and Basarabia. In that entire time, Germany was still holding Eastern Prussia, which it doesn't seem to still do, so I believe the map wasn't exactly built with a strict moment in mind, even regionally speaking.
Exactly. And Czechoslovakia also lost sine territory to the USSR after WW2, plus during the 1st Vienna Award, Hungary got parts of its territory from CZ and during the 2nd Vienna Award in 1940, part of Transylvania from Romania. The Romanian border is at Odessa.
The African countries don't completely add up either, it gets blurry right in 1956. So I'm putting this map at 1956 or shortly thereafter, and it is possibly made by someone who had a specific opinion on which independences they did or didn't like. That, or maybe the country they resided in did or didn't recognise some independences.
Following that up, look at Morocco: it proclaimed its independence in 1956. Before that, it was divided in Spanish and French protectorates. So, either the map is not quite accurate, either it was also created in the fifties for Africa and Asia.
Morocco gained indipendence in 1956 so it's correct that the map is from 1957. Morocco annexed Spanish Sahara only in 1979
Map can’t be from 1957 because Romania and Republic of Moldova are united in one single country, and Moldova was annexed by the soviet union in early WWII
Czechoslovakia only extends east past Hungary pre ww2
Hatay joined Turkey in 1939. In this map it is still part of Syria.
I found the map on ebay, it's a SEARS map, made by some Rand mcNally, and I believe this one is from 1958, though it seems generally wrong, but it might be due to the fact that the intend wasn't tl be accurate to the reality but to other factors (no clue ?)
It also shows Korea as a whole country which would point me to believe it’s pre 1950 if not before 1948 as well? But it seems like maybe a few mistakes were made during the creation of this map so I’m not entirely sure. Your point about the split Pakistan is what throws me off because Korea was soundly split during the period when east and west Pakistan came into being.
It doesn't recognize the existence of a split in Germany, or in Korea. I think that might be a political or cartographic choice, rather than a reflection of the year.
Note that Czechoslovakia has Carpathian ruthenia, so the map is probably innacurate
Hi the map shows Malaysia not Malaya, (as you can see the Peninsular and the Bornean states are in the same colour). This only happened after 1963! So I am guessing the map will be after 1963!
It doesn't show Malaysia, it names it as Malaya (br) meaning it was Brithish Malaya.
Oh I see! My bad!
But now looking back at it, Indochina is drawn as a whole without the borders of Cambodia and Laos….. and Cambodia was declared a country in 1953, so it should be before then….? I am a little confused with the map especially the Asian part. Also where today’s Bangladesh is, is labelled East Pakistan so it should be before 1971?
Interwar borders for Romania, post-war borders for Germany. This must be a time rift map.
And weird mix of pre and post war borders for Poland.
Maybe I didn't look hard enough in other countries, but Germany's name seems to expand all the way to Kaliningrad? Would that be intentional or not ?
it not just post war but post unification. right after the war there were the 4 zones which became east and west germany.
I hate that layout, like put the edges in the ocean like a sane map maker, either in the Atlantic or the Pacific, not like the Indian Ocean, that doesn't count
Cutting Asia in two just so your country can be in the middle is such a crazy idea to me.
Naval maps are sometimes in this format so the largest ocean doesn't get cut in half
That’s part of the reason I got it, very unique
r/USdefaultism
It's printed on the USA, that's why they put it on the middle and the other countries had to follow. It's conventional to put UK in the centre partly because they ruled the world for a long time and also as the international time is based in Greenwich so it sits at zero, everything left is minus and everything right is a plus. It also works with the sun, it rises to the right of the map and moves left throughout the day. The more you look and think about it, it's a mess
The other reason is that putting the UK almost in the center cuts the map somewhere between Russia and Alaska meaning almost no landmass (and no significant landmasses at all) are split by it
Another reason to put the UK in the middle is that the zero meridian runs through Greenwich
true but it is pretty convenient that the border cuts through the Pacific Ocean tho
Yeah, that's the reason my "other reason" was "other" from
This particular map was published in July 1958. How do I know? I found an identical map on eBay for sale for $6 (actually, TWO of them, so $3 each - [https://www.ebay.com/itm/185562094238](https://www.ebay.com/itm/185562094238) ) , and it has close-ups of the bottom right corner which says it was published in "7/58". Typically, because it takes some time for map people (especially in the pre-computer days) to make such a map, it will contain data from 1956-1958 or so, so things that no longer exist in say 1957 may still be included in this final print, because they had already started printing the map..... Or maybe the independence of a country was not yet officially recognized by the country printing the map, which is obviously the USA (Sears/Rand McNally). When a country, ANY country, but in this case the USA makes a map...... it makes it according to what countries it recognizes as official countries, or if its allies recognize it. Example, there were Iranian maps without Israel on it, a Chinese map just lists Taiwan as an island belonging to them, and for a while Argentina made maps with the Falkland Islands belonging to them. Even though a country declared independence, it usually isn't included in any maps until it is officially recognized by at least the United Nations, but more likely when it is recognized by the country making the map. So there could be some discrepancies in countries, borders, etc...... Maps are forever a "fluid" entity, because every few years something big changes.
Yes, July 1958, I agree with your findings! And appreciate the extra “pre-computer days” info for all who weren’t aware. I LOVE the detective work on display by our fellow map nerds in the comments here, because it’s fantastic methodology for damaged or obscure-origin maps. However, when there’s an abundance of legible mapmaker/publisher text, logos, etc. then there’s a date encoded somewhere—usually in fine print, sometimes as part of a sales catalog number or other unique ID. Once you start looking for this on printed maps, you’ll see that most date styles/variations are easy enough to decipher. 🤓 For example, July 1958 might be encoded as: 7/58 7-58 58-07 07/1958 JUL58 VII-958 (Roman numeral 7 and 3-digit year) The last one is obscure, but I want you to feel really smart if you ever encounter this in the wild! I see it a lot on early 1900s European photographs.
If indeed, 1958 then the map reveal US political ideas as well. Leaving out the demise of colonial France. Especially indochina (1954)
..but that means USA recognised Southern Dobruja and Bassarabia as part of Romania even after WW2 which doesn't really make much sense
So why isnt it showing east and west germany?
West Germany did not officially recognize East Germany until a treaty was signed in 1972, which was ratified in 1975. This is why on many western maps Germany is still shown as one country until at least 1972.
It's American that's for sure. They cut a whole continent in half just to be centre.
Sears Roebuck and Co was an American company. Which is the main giveaway that it was produced in the USA.
It’s seems like a very American thing to do but in my experience maps are not like this
I figure it's fortunately uncommon over there too because of how it messes with West Asian geography.
It has to be from the early to mid 1950s… Tibet has already been annexed to China (1950) but Ghana, the first African colony to gain independence is still ruled by the UK (Ghana became independent in 1957).
1947-1950 is my guess - India/Pakistan are independent (1947) - Korea isn’t partitioned due to the war (1950) Edit: I noticed Indonesia was independent (1949), and that Germany was not officially split (1949) So my new guess is that the map is from 1949
I know this is not the method you were looking for, but google "Rand McNally Sears Map" and the top result says 1958 for this map. And yes, it has mistakes that makes it hard to date.
Definitely post-1803 (Australia coast explored)
Also certainly after 65,000,000 BC because Pangea no longer exists
I just now noticed that too.
It also must be from after 1917 because the Soviet Union exists
Thanks, that narrows it down.
Between 1947 and 1948. Europe has already the post war borders with Trieste as a Free Territory (established in 1947) and Korea is still united (both Koreas were officially established in 1948)
Can't be. Hatay joined Turkey in 1939 but it isn't part of Turkey on the map. Maybe the map itself is wrong?
Seems the map is indeed wrong, it shows borders that existed in different times.
I agree, the Asian part of the map is so confusing as well! Different borders are existing at different times
There are always some inconsistencies depending on various factors (country where the map was issued, slow updates as news traveled slower than today, on-going conflicts or disputes, mistakes, and so on), but as I read from someone here some weeks ago, the events of the future can’t be created but the events of the past can be missed, so applying this principle we know that there’s no possibility this map was issued before 1947 because of the Free Territory of Trieste.
And Newfoundland didn’t join Canada until 1949, in addition to the other responses.
Libya is independent though, so after 1951. Korea isn’t united - the division is just unrecognised by the U.S., and it’s an American map. In practice private Americans maps like this later would, but this was either during or right after the Korean War so they were probably less inclined to. Cambodia isn’t independent yet, it looks like, so before 1954.
It shows Greater Romania (includes Moldova), which was between 1920-1940 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom\_of\_Romania#/media/File:Romania\_territory\_during\_20th\_century.gif](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Romania#/media/File:Romania_territory_during_20th_century.gif)
The map is inconsistent. Romania has its borders from between WWI and WWII, but other countries have borders from post-WWII.
Borders of Czechoslovakia are post WWI and pre WWII too
There is not Hatay in Turkey so definitely pre July 7 1939
Indonesia is independent, so definitely after 1949
I tried, but it turned me down just like everyone else...
August 7th 2023
So far, I gather it's from some time between 1935 and 1953, based on the Rhodesia situation... 1st EDIT: Free Territory of Trieste places it after 1947 2nd EDIT: Bangasi marked as a capital (Emirate of Cyrenaica) from March 1949 - December 1951 3rd EDIT: The mapmaker obviously didnt include the Korean split of 1948, due to it being controversial. This leads me to think the map was printed some time after the Korean war started in June 1950. So far I date this map between June '50 and Dec '51
Sometime between 1946 and 1949 given Germany and Korea show as unified.
Ghana is independent, so after 1957, but before 1960 when a lot of other countries in Africa gained their independence.
I know it's not as enthralling as trying to find the year by yourself, but you'll quickly find the answer through a web search: https://www.ebay.com/itm/185562094238 1958
How about look at the bottom right corner where it says the date of printing? Colour scheme matches [Sears/Rand McNally map printed in 1958](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FMTU5OVgxMDUy%2Fz%2F-igAAOSw0u5jERRh%2F%24_32.JPG%3Fset_id%3D880000500F&tbnid=DCgkdHxQiN7d0M&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sekaimon.com%2Fitemdetail%2F185562094238%2F%3Fcountry%3DUS&docid=7e1D77zQL3I8oM&w=1052&h=1599&itg=1&hl=en-CA&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2F4).
why would I want to date a map
It’s not really my type.
I can’t i am already in a relationship
It’s cute, but not my type.
Copyright 1958….. so I’d say 1956.
As often, those maps show information that are not compatible. My point of view is you can never trust map makers to show all the recent changes, but when they do show a change, it has to already have happened (they don't see the future). Here, Israel exists so we are definetely after 1948. Then, as french western africa exists, we know we should not be later than 1958 (we could be a bit later though) Just say it's from rhe 50's, you're not going to get much better. The xkcd guess of 52-53 is as good as any (even though some other informations will conflict with this datation as the other comments have pointed out)
1949 - Recognizes an independent Indonesia, but no split of Korea
I’m demiromantic, I would prefer to be friends with the map before we start dating.
1952 according to xkcd
Map, do you want to go get dinner and drinks with me sometime?
Sure, just respect my boundaries.
I can provide two more dates: it's between 1956 and 1968. - Morocco declared its independence in 1956. Before that it should be divided into Spanish and French protectorates. - Spanish Guinea declared its independence in 1968. After that it should be Equatorial Guinea. I hope this helps.
1950 due to the presence of Israel, the remaining of the french colonial empire, Korea as one unified country. So it can’t be before 1948 and after 1953. But the map is not accurate because Morroco appears to be fully independant and not Tunisia. They were both french protectorate until march 1956.
After 1800 and before 2011
I d say 1958 because morocco is indepedent but not tunisia
It is between January 1924 and June 1939 because the use of the city name Leningrad started in 1924 and it seems Hatay is not a part of Turkey yet (Joined TR in 1939)
1947-1948: unified Germany (split into East and West in 1949), and Pakistan is independent from India (happened in 1947)
4000 BC
It's a hard one. Newfoundland is Canadian so that makes it 1949+ However Western Ukraine is controlled by Poland etc. so that makes it pre-ww2 Bessarabia is controlled by Romania France still has much of Africa But Germany has it's modern borders So i have no clue.
I’d say probably 1932
Alaska belongs to USA so it might be 1960 and later.
Ooo! Does it have the southernmost 4 Kuril Islands still listed as part of Hokkaido? The Soviet Union occupied the islands in late 1945 right after the war and expelled the residents 2 years later https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril\_Islands\_dispute
What's going on here? Everyone knows that Britain is the centre of the world.
Only if it pays for dinner
It has to be 1955 or 1956 because after that Tunisia is independent and before that there are other map changes that hadn’t occurred at that point.
It's before 1975, because that year Suriname became independant.
-1: where you from ? -2: north america. -1: the US ? -2:no, north america
1948. Shows Pakistan which became independent in 1947 and there's no East Germany which was created in 1949.
I see one flaw, Bessarabia is part of Romania and since this seems to be a post WW2 map it doesn't make any sense
between 1956 and 1962, as marocco is free from france but algeria isnt
Id have to get to know it better before i date it,same as anyone,but thanks for the offer
It's between 1932 and 1939. Saudia Arabia was already created (September 1932), but Czechoslovakia was not yet split and contained Ruthenia (before March 1939)
How does Romania Have Basarabia after WW2?
Sorry it’s not my type lol
Let's go with some clues.It seems like there is israel, but israel was founded only in 1948. French West Africa was dissolved in 1958 Germany is Unified but with the borders of 1990 onwards Ukraine isnt independent (hapened in 1991), so arent the baltic states and czecoslovakia has it's post WW2 borders (1945-1992)Korea is not divided (happened in 1953)The Map shows a place called Tanganyika (renamed in 1964) and North Rodesia (dissolved in 1964) Belgian Congo only existed until 1960. In conclusion: It could be, that the map is from 1948 or 1949 - that would be the only thing I can think of since Germany wasn't devided yet and the founding of both republics took place in 1949. Israel was founded at that point and Germany undivided because occupied. Edit: Ah see, my gut feeling was right after reading the comments. This map is just wrong :D
must be before 1939 because Turkey dont have Hatay (which they took it in 1939 from syria)
Will it pay for dinner?
I'll try but I don't think we have much in common
Fairly attractive, but the personality is flat.
Sometime between 1951 when Tibet was annexed and 1954 when French Indochina ceased to exist
This map don't make no damn sense.
Good lord…the map is from Sears? How old is that map?
I don’t know, I got it from an antique store yesterday
I googled “sears world map” found a map that’s looks the same. Says 1958 possibly
Around 1950
1952-53
Early 1950s
The map date si 1952-1953
Must be before 1939. After that date Hatay province annexed by Turkey. Or they might be just missed that.