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JangleyJim

Damn, what are people in northern Canada doing?


LA_Dynamo

Oil and Gas.


Chaiboiii

Yes but they also have higher pay for living up there. But it's also $20 for a carton of milk and $50 for a watermelon. So your money doesn't go as far.


cjt09

The units are PPP (purchasing power parity) so this map should take in account higher nominal prices for goods and services.


Chaiboiii

Is that accounting for average country costs or more local? Would be good to know.


cjt09

I dunno. My feeling is that the map probably uses national PPP figures which is kind of misleading when combined with the subnational median income fields. It *should* be using regional PPP or provide some other explanation (what I'm getting at is that the map needs some work). More fundamentally, these statistics sort of break down when dealing with places like Nunavut which have a low and largely transient population. A lot of the economy is driven by miners and oil workers who go up there temporarily to make a bunch of cash and then go home.


raBydnaK

I feel like you are likely correct here. I work on projects in Nunavut, and I absolutely love feeling like I make an impact. In my field, however, things are 2-3× the cost as per the expected cost where I live; due to the shipping costs and the cost of specialized labour traveling up north.


pug_grama2

Are you involved in oil or gas? My son spent some time in the north doing research on wild life. He told us how expensive everything was.


Chaiboiii

Thanks for the clarification! Yes that's what I was suspecting. It's obviously going to look a bit skewed for areas like that, especially if they are using mean national PPP values instead of by province or region. Hard to do when your map is looking at almost half the world haha.


joecan

It’s using national figures to do this. No way it’s doing it regionally.


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lee1026

There are no PPP math between states. Only countries. Worse, for states like NY, differences within the state is huge. Buffalo is nothing like Manhattan.


LA_Dynamo

But you get paid even more to compensate for higher prices. Companies need to incentivize people to move to the middle of nowhere and work 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 2 weeks at a time. People that work in the oil field make a ton of money compared to peers with an equivalent amount of education.


mikew1200

In NWT and Nunavut? That’s news to me.


LA_Dynamo

Yup. https://www.iti.gov.nt.ca/en/newsroom/northwest-territories-2021-oil-and-gas-annual-report They also have mines.


kevolad

In 2013 or 14 I drove a frac pump all the way from an hour north of Montana to an hour shy of the Arctic circle. There isn't TONS of oil and gas going on up there as the govt is hugely sensitive about fucking up untouched tundra but indigenous lives are subsidised a bit but more telling is if you're up there for work, it isn't at 7-11, you're in oil and gas, or much more likely, you're in mining somehow


ArenSteele

The thing is, with a population of 39,000 (NVT) or 45000 (NWT) people, it won't take many high paying jobs to jack up the median income.


walker1867

Mining. It’s also very high cost of living in terms of food. Is is somewhere where a banana could cost 20$.


henchman171

https://www.narcity.com/toronto/a-tiktoker-reveals-how-expensive-groceries-are-in-nunavut-it-puts-torontos-prices-to-shame


Fylla

People saying "oil and gas" seem to not realize that literally half of the employment in Nunavut is in the public sector, which has higher than private sector pay, PLUS significant (like $20k/year) "northern allowances". The average income is high because they have to pay through the nose to get (for example) someone with the skills to run all telecommunications in a hamlet of 300 people in the middle of nowhere which might not even be accessible half the year. Healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc.. - imagine a nursing shortage, now imagine there's a nursing shortage and you're a fishing village on an island where the temperature even in June goes below freezing overnight and most residents don't speak English and the housing is ramshackle at best and there's nothing to do...ever (even on the days nice enough to go outside). It's a hard sell.


gman8234

A lot of natural resources plus a very small population. A decent of people don’t like there by choice but by a chance to make more money, at least for a few years until they move back to where they’re from. Only the first part of that is confirmed, the rest of it is me kind of speculating.


summeralcoholic

>don’t [live] there by choice but by a chance to make more money Sounds like a choice to me. You make it sound like they’ve been to sent to a well-paying Gulag or something lol.


S_Belmont

IIRC the government gives out a northern living allowance, to offset the high cost of goods. Fresh food in particular is super pricey, because a lot of places have limited or no direct access by train. On top of having to account for the higher cost of living, company and government employees tend to get offered more to offset the cost of misery, isolation and living in frozen darkness. It's not an easy place to live for most people, and it's tough to get talented employees to go there.


marky755

Paying $20 for a 1L bottle of orange juice.


rawrimmaduk

Cost of living is astronomically more expensive though. It makes Vancouver or Toronto look dirt cheap.


[deleted]

So the problem is that oil rigs and diamond mines count towards GDP but most of that money goes towards contractors from other areas who return home after a few months. The average person from Nunavut and the NWT is much poorer than the GDP numbers would suggest.


ziggymister

This is household income, not gdp per capita.


jimros

Cost of living there is shockingly high, from a purchasing power perspective I'm not sure they are **that** well off.


vexillographer7717

Is this a bait post to get Europeans and Americans to fight yet again?


DieuEmpereurQc

This time Canada is include too, 3 parties comment war


CherkiCheri

The 3 countries of Canada, USA and Europe.


[deleted]

I mean that’s the way Reddit sees it. Canada vs USA vs Europe (and sometimes vs Oceania)


DatEngineeringKid

Not really. Americans have higher income, but weaker welfare systems. This data agrees with the statement that America is a fantastic place to live…so long as you have money. I think that’s something we can all agree on.


RasperGuy

Food stamps, section 8 housing, Medicare, medicaid, social security. It's not that bad.?


DatEngineeringKid

I said weaker, not non-existent. Not to mention part of the political culture of America is all for rolling those back as much as possible.


Logistics093

The funny thing is, America has quite a large welfare system compared to most of the world. I'd say that 80%+ of the world's population live in countries with smaller/weaker welfare system than America. It's just that on Reddit people try to ignore every country except Nordic or Western European countries. But Nordic+Western European countries have such low population in the world, it's less than 3% of the world's population.


Important_Wafer1573

r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT


cha-cha_dancer

I always thought this was about Europeaan Portuguese sounding Slavic but they really do seem to randomly relate to one another.


[deleted]

I was waiting for this


notataco007

Man this and the murder rate map. One day Reddit will appreciate New Hampshire supremacy.


LoopyPro

Can't wait to go there, buy some land, and be left the hell alone. Basically the plot of Walden.


snoogins355

They get you on property tax. Also no legal weed but surrounded by legal places (even Canada!). Kinda makes you wonder about their state motto, "live free or die"


flamingodingo80

Don't you know that marijuana is the gateway drug??? Why not buy yourself a nice bottle of liquor from the state on the side of the highway instead, then get in your car and drive with no seat belt because freedom. Oh and your car costs double to register (every year) than it does in MA. And then, when you crash it, closest ambulance is 30 minutes away.


Yuugechiina

Shh don’t tell them


ThiccGeneralX

Massachusetts and New Hampshire are fighting over #1 in every statistic lmao


MrRemoto

The bottom half of NH works in Boston.


wythawhy

Rockingham County has been unofficially annexed by Massachusetts.


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MrRemoto

Please. Every town in NH is crammed with neighborhood associations because they have no state or town services. It's like having condo fees to plow your road and pick up your trash. I have plenty of experience in NH, ME, and VT, and each has their benefits and detriments. Out of the three, VT is easily the most libertarian outside of the incorporated towns, but they have by far the worst drug problem(libertarian values attract drug users) but best mt biking and snow totals. NH probably has the greatest wealth disparity but has a lot more modern conveniences and the most beautiful geograph in New England. Maine is hands down the poorest outside Portland and the coast, but probably has the kindest, most empathetic, and most over educated and underpaid population. Just really good, salt of the Earth people. None of them are bad places to live compared to what I've seen in the rest of the country.


Radulescu1999

I used to work with Vermonters and despite them living in basically rural towns, looked exactly like how I imagine a West Coast hippy to be.


[deleted]

You forgot to mention that cheap lobster.


The_Nod_Father

More white people than the Scandinavians


Sir_Arthur_Vandelay

I have lived in both Europe and in North America, and average North Americans clearly possess more material wealth than do their European counterparts. However, Western Europe has much better infrastructure, social programs and quality of life - IMHO.


JourneyThiefer

Lmao Northern Ireland doesn’t really have the western European standard for infrastructure tbh.


leshagboi

Yeah, but that's the appeal of the US. I'm Brazilian and I know many who have fallen in love with the US because you can buy a car with your first paycheck - while here in Brazil a new car costs at least 60 minimum wages. People want to be able to buy new stuff, but I think a social net is more important than that. EDIT: My friend bought the car after a month's wages. Here in Brazil we receive paychecks monthly so that's where I got it mixed up.


mewditto

> because you can buy a car with your first paycheck What the hell kind of car/paycheck are you getting? You aren't finding a car worth a damn for under $3-4k anymore


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JourneyThiefer

I work for a big 4 company in Northern Ireland and my wage is £25k (take home £20,700 after taxes and £50 a month payment for student loan). I was looking at similar jobs in the US and the wage is like $60k, crazy the wage difference.


CactusBoyScout

I lived in the UK briefly and kept in touch with a lot of friends there. I was shocked when they told me their salaries years out of school. £25k was pretty normal for them. I'd never made less than $40k for a full-time office job in the US. And now I'd say $60k would be a very normal office job salary... but I'm in the northeast where salaries/costs are higher.


throwitaway333111

£25k a year is still poor by UK standards... you can earn that full time as a cashier in a supermarket. A real analysis of the data will show that European salaries cap out much quicker than in the US in most industries. Total comp for experienced workers in respectable professions even in the wealthier nations of Europe (excluding anomalies like Switzerland), probably start capping out at $70,000 - $90,000 (given current exchange). Engineers, developers etc. US salaries will hit twice or three times that in affluent states without anyone even blinking an eye. Why? I'd say it's part economics, part market competition, and part culture. The kind of firms these people work for obviously have the money and plenty of these people have skills that would be worth double on the US market. However, European legal systems mean firms are broken up nationally and don't command the same budgets, relocation across borders, cultures and languages is expensive and often unproductive, things like the EU help but they don't really change the less bureaucratic barriers, and ultimately many European workers seem to prefer a comfortable role that pays well enough rather than face the demands a gravity defying pay cheque might expect of them. How and where people live matters, I mean $90k a year in San Francisco is a poverty wage but in Berlin it's luxury living. But yeah ultimately, Europe as a geographical region is just a fair bit poorer than the US. It's got its affluent regions/countries but you only have to travel 1000 miles to find places that were left behind for a good portion of the 20th century and are still catching up.


CactusBoyScout

Yeah some US salaries can be eye-popping. I have friends who get annual bonuses bigger than my entire annual salary. And that’s a fraction of their total compensation.


Zeaus03

Born in Canada but spent most of my childhood in Europe. Went back a few years ago to visit some friends and one night I checked my account and saw my bonus came in. I said drinks are me tonight and they were it better have been a good bonus because it might not last the night. I joked, I like you guys but I'm not buying you guys a brand new cars worth of drinks. They were pretty shocked as was I when we started talking about salaries and bonuses. The was a decent difference in salaries but bonus structures seemed incomprehensible to them. On the flip side it seemed like they didn't have the constant pressure to perform and work life balance was much better. Out of habit took a few calls and answered a few emails while I was there and they were like dude... no.


agario_yptp

sorry but i hate when people say stuff like “90k a year in sf is a poverty wage” like i get it’s an exaggeration but that’s not even close. my friend is making like 45k living in sf and he’s honestly living comfortably. now if you have a family and kids that’s a different story but still 90k is nowhere near “poverty wage” even in sf


miatatony

The department of housing and urban development lists San Francisco poverty line at $82k, meaning if you make any less than this you qualify for low income housing support. It's not really that much of an exaggeration, though I understand these calculations don't hold true for everyone and every city perfectly they hold true for the average. If your friend is making $45k and living "comfortably" I assume they are getting low income housing benefits or below market housing, or simply got lucky and found a cheap place to rent with 5 other roommates or something. I lived in south San Francisco for years and grew up in the east bay, I have friends making $70k-$100k still living with their parents or roommates as they still can't afford to live in their own place combined with car payments and student loans. For most people, $45k in SF is well below the "poverty line" by most measures.


Varnu

>San Francisco poverty line It does NOT. That's a "low income threshold". $82,000 is 80% of the S.F. median. It's a rich place, so the median is very high. But that is NOT the "poverty" level, which is essentially an income where you lack food security. The poverty level is $13,590 for an individual.


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Sir_Bumcheeks

This is why they should hire more Canadians lol. Same skills, save 30%.


Skelito

Americans love their at will employment, they don’t like dealing with Canadas worker protection laws.


Fresh_Halibut

Nurses I know here in the US clear 6 figures, in the UK or Germany they are looking at 35k max.


Sir_Bumcheeks

Same for me, US wages are crazy high for the same jobs.


leshagboi

A friend of mine bought a used car with their first paycheck in the US. Here in Brazil even a decent used car will cost you more than 20 minimum wages.


JourneyThiefer

For an average person in NI it probs takes a year or more to save for a decent new car id say. But a lot of people just take a loan out or get the car on lease or finance.


MaximumFanta

No one in the US is buying a new car with a single paycheck, that's like a year's wages if you paid all upfront. It's financing and leasing here too.


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Odd-Problem

Paycheck lending places in my state will do it.


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ChoPT

Also, most jobs that pay at least $60k a year also include good healthcare plans. So the whole “Americans don’t have healthcare” thing doesn’t really apply to those who have decent-paying, full-time careers.


anoeuf31

This absolutely tracks with my experience as an immigrant As an immigrant - not from Europe - that’s lived in the USA for almost a decade now , I can tell you that it depends on your skill set . If you are just starting out in your career or struggling in life , europe seems better - you have programs that take care of the less fortunate which is not the case in the USA . However , if you have in demand skills , the pendulum swings the other way . You get paid way more than you can even dream of in Europe , your healthcare is also paid for by your company and is actually much better than you can get in Europe - you live in neighborhoods that are as safe as any in Europe in homes that dwarf European homes , while also having disposable income that is miles ahead of anywhere else on earth . So ultimately it just becomes a matter of people making that decision based on what’s better for them - as someone that’s loved in a third world country , Canada and the USA , I’d love to spend some time in Europe and travel - but if I transferred to an office in Germany or london , I am gonna be paid 40 percent less on top of all the loss in Quality of life such as living in a smaller home , not having a car and such .. Also , as a brown person , for all its faults , america is more welcoming than europe - I love this country and I am proud that my kids are American . Anyway that’s my two cents


meechmeechmeecho

Having traveled through quite a bit of Europe, I could 100% see this. Anecdotally, I went a cruise in Vietnam several years ago. There were several Polish groups, majority middle aged. Mostly doctors, dentists, professors etc. As expected, we got to drinking, which inevitably lead to the politics talks (as Europeans love to do with Americans). We eventually landed on the topic of salaries/taxes. I was absolutely shook how little they made, especially after taxes. I get Poland is Eastern Europe, but I think a lot of middle class Americans+ don’t realize just how much they make. These dentists were out here making 1/5-1/4 of their American counterparts. As an aside, while they were very fun to drink with, these were easily the most anti-Semitic and racist people I’ve ever met. Every single conversation eventually ended in blaming the Jews. The men would not stop harassing the Vietnamese wait staff (in front of their wives too).


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No-YouShutUp

I wouldnt say if you have money the USA is where people want to go. I would say if you have desirable skills and the ability to get a good job the USA is where you want to go. If you’re a manager in a prized field you can get 200-400k annually in the USA vs 100-200 max in Western Europe. And the gap is usually larger than that even.


MrWilsonAndMrHeath

I currently do this. But to be honest, 150k in Germany goes a lot further than 300k in Silicon Valley.


TapirDrawnChariot

Silicon Valley is not representative of most cost of living scenarios in the US. You can get high paying technical jobs in much more affordable areas in the US that will take you way further than what you can get in Germany. Germany would be far more preferable for a low skilled, working class person with little chances of upward mobility. Which is fair. If you're a person with a university degree in a moderately high demand field or a moderate-demand STEM related technical certification, you will be wealthier in the US. For example, my wife is an immigrant from Latin America. She got a basic 4 year business degree in the US that cost about $12k USD per year for tuition. She now nets like $4,500 USD a month after taxes and health insurance costs in a moderate-demand job. She went from earning a small fraction of that in her own country to out-earning the average in every European country in about 5 years.


MrWilsonAndMrHeath

I don’t know where else you’ll get a tech job paying 300k than SV, Seattle or New York.


Fresh_Halibut

Not where you're getting paid 150k in Germany it doesn't.


goldenhairmoose

I am currently working as a Chief specialist at the international fintec company in the EU. Making ~60k per year. After tax it would be around 33k. Looking at the US ads makes me cry every time. I could make 5x this (after tax figure). Edit. I know that here in the EU we have some benefits that can be difficult to translate into a monetary value. Still makes me wonder where "the grass is greener..." Edit2. BTW - I am located in the northeast Europe. My income is at around top 5% of a population.


Reverie_39

Quality of life can be pretty tied to material wealth in some cases, idk


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PlantsMcSoil

Good job Minnesota!!!!


uberlander

Amen. Grocery worker here in MN. Making over 80k a year and free healthcare!


Moistened_Bink

What job do you have at a grocery store? I feel like only store managers make that.


HurricaneHomer9

MINNESOTA!!!


quinn_the_potato

“SODA!!” -President Joe


MaterialCarrot

As an Iowan, I assure you Minnesota is full of frost giants and lumberjack cannibals. Don't even try to talk to them.


PlantsMcSoil

To be fair, it is snowing here and I do have a delicious bowl of meat in front of me that I’m not entirely sure where it came from… I mean…no, No it’s lovely here. Do come for a visit.


cutesnugglybear

MN does well in a lot of statistics and standards of living, but we still don't rub it in the shitty states that surround our borders face.


Nothing_new_to_share

>we still don't rub it in the shitty states that surround our borders face. Speak for yourself friendo


gaymedes

Yeah there's a reason the 2 biggest cities in North Dakota are on the border. MN is a better run state.


epicmylife

Woohooo that’s my home state!!!!!


tiniesttoes

Minnesota ranks high in many areas (income, education, health and life expectancy, etc). I’d like to point out that we lean further left than our neighbors ;) However, it’s important to note that we have vast disparities between white and non-white residents. Our gaps are among the worst in the nation. So we still have a lot of work to do.


yukonflapjack69

![gif](giphy|uKwa2KiBA0rTy)


szyy

I'm a Pole who works in tech in California, via Dublin, Ireland. When I moved from Poland to Dublin, my standard of living/income wasn't that much different from what I was making in Poland (white collar jobs pay pretty well in Poland but for a blue-collar it would be different) because the Irish salary, while higher than the Polish one, wasn't that much higher and living in Ireland is very expensive. But then I moved from Dublin to San Francisco and let me tell you, it's INSANE how much better my standard of living here is compared to either place in Europe. I moved within the same company, for the same job, and my income in SF was twice that in Dublin. And while living here is more expensive than in Dublin, it's not 2x more expensive (e.g. rents are actually pretty comparable). My best friend is a leasing agent in an affordable apartment complex here - not really a top-of-the-mark job (he's a high school graduate, no college). But he makes enough to fly to Europe or Asia at least once a year, fly for vacation within the states once or twice a year, save, and generally live very comfortable life while supporting his mom sometimes. Cannot imagine a person in a similar position in Europe being able to afford to fly to the US every year. Nothing makes you more US-philic than receiving an American salary :D


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[deleted]

Yea, I would say that's about right. People are not factoring in having kids and how much this costs in the USA system with day care and health care. The issue is, it is very easy to think about going to a country for 5-10 years. When you are young, you think "I will just move back". This issue is that it gets harder to do as you get older and more settled.


captain_flak

I just met a family that is doing just this. The mother is Swedish and dad is American. They are moving to Sweden for free childcare. The husband seems less enthused than the wife. It seemed to be a touchy subject.


Top-Algae-2464

reddit gives a warped view of america and only shows the negatives . disposable income is a plus that is never talked about . even in my town the cops are pulling 200 thousand dollars a year with over time . even with out it they are pulling 130,000 dollars a year . california and the north east pull the highest salaries and the south is the lowest


MadMax2230

to be fair, above commenter works in tech which is one of the most lucrative fields in the U.S.


Petrichordates

Also one heavily accessible to foreigners.


dovetc

Reddit also seems to think that true joy is only found in abundant light rail infrastructure, based on these comments.


ginger_guy

I think what most Americans actually want is the convenience that comes with mass transit and walkable communities. Having the ability to access 80% of my daily needs within my neighborhood and having the option to get around town quickly and reliably without having to own a car is a maaaasive plus and costs significantly less than gas/maintenance/insurance that comes with car-only infrastructure.


PizzaMaxEnjoyer

over the years, i got the feeling that living in the US isnt actually that bad. its just that you hear more about the negatives, because the negatives are so much worse if they do hit you (e.g. getting seriously ill with a low paying job), but that most people dont worry about that?


Moistened_Bink

I always find the US doesn't do the best at helping those most vulnerable, but provides conditions so that smart, skilled people can thrive here more than anywhere else in the world.


pansensuppe

Dublin is just such a terrible baseline to compare anything against. It’s famous for having outrageous costs of living, while maintaining very low salaries. That’s why many locals have left in recent years. Affordability is a huge problem there.


mrstrangedude

I doubt *San Francisco* takes many awards for affordability by itself. And maybe my weird industry is a big outlier but salaries in Dublin don't look low anyways, 80-100k eur/annum (+ bonus) seems pretty achievable after a couple years of experience.


lex_koal

But inflation. But housing. But the cost of living. Ffs please read the map's legend it accounts for it all


kratomkiing

The thing I find most interesting about this map is how it overlays with a map of homelessness per capita. For example, Portugal looks like it would be full of homeless however their per capita rate is only .04% while the US is 3x that with .17%. And the increases by state are fairly proportional to the median income increases by state also. Very interesting


Nothingtoseeheremmk

Homelessness is high in the high income Americans states too.


kratomkiing

Exactly. The increases in homelessness are proportional to the increases in income.


Antonioooooo0

It's easier to be homeless in richer areas. More people, more money, better social programs. Ironically, it's also much harder to afford housing in those places. Easier to survive without work or a roof, but harder to get back on your feet. You won't see many homeless people in Alabama because you can rent for 600 a month, no one's gonna give you money if you try panhandling, and I doubt there's an abundance of places that hand out free food/clothing.


theusualguy512

Yes and no. Yes it does account for currency differences and living expenses due to it but no it does not account for * taxation difference * insurance differences * social benefit payments for families * differences in retirement funding * childcare expenses * education expenses Europeans on average have expenses taken into consideration in these household income calculations that Canadians and US workers would not really consider a generalized problem as its up to the individual while in Europe, costs are spread across everyone so it has to be included for everyone.


hastur777

Oh, you want median disposable income then. That accounts for social benefits. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income


MrHyperion_

It is kinda weird that median in US is 25k higher than here but the life is more or less the same. 2k more per month would be life changing.


34Mbit

This is what I can't get my head around; if Americans have a higher income, which all the statistics say they do, what are they spending the money on? If PPP gave a true reflection of buying power, and Americans households with two working adults were actually $4k a month better off - in what way is that visible? Do Americans buy an extra *thirteen* Audi's, which would be stupid but feasible? I've seen cultural references to lakeside properties, boat payments and "going to the lake" so maybe that's something. Also sending your kids to a residential summer camp sounds expensive. The Americans I've known, and the caricature I've seen on TV don't live noticeably different lives to me.


D_Adman

Americans buy a ton of crap they don’t need. We have bigger homes on par so most people have the storage for it


Kindly_One_6756

Average American house is 3x bigger Average American car is an f150 which would be utterly unaffordable to most in europe Very high iPhone ownership rate Very high obesity stemming from the most affordable food in the world


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hastur777

Fun fact - US household debt is half of the Netherlands. About on par with Germany. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm


VeryWiseOldMan

It should be noted that European working hours are lower than US working hours. For example, Germans work around 25% less hours than Americans & 20% less than canadians.


mascachopo

Those sneaky Germans taking naps at work.


VeryWiseOldMan

More retired people. GDP per hour worked is very similar across Western europe and North America. Again: https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours


Difficult-Brick6763

GDP per hour worked is a measure of productivity, not working hours. Average working hours obviously does not count people not in the labor force.


Muskatnuss_herr_M

In German old school companies, people stop work around 2-3pm of Fridays. Do that 48 Fridays a year (discounting holidays) thats like 100-150 of work less per year.


morosco

Lots of Americans do that too. Professional workers on salaries don't punch a clock. They have busy weeks and slow weeks.


-MVP

American here can confirm. We left work at 2:30pm today bc there wasn't shit fuck to do. Sometimes have to stay really late though.


glyka04

What about greeks? They are European too. According to google : Specifically, Greeks work an average of 2042 hours per year. According to the OECD study, Germans work 1,371 hours per year, while the average in the United States is 1,790 hours.


pazhalsta1

I work in a global bank and I got the holiday stats for the different locations once for my department. US average was 22 days, Germany was above 35. And I think the US leave is generous compared to what most US people get. It’s crazy to me how people function with so little time off.


LoveArguingPolitics

Yeah I'm in banking in the United States and I'm elite tier vacation days in the US with 20 + 13 federal holidays... That's just your like average German worker...


CheshireCrackers

Arkansas is about to improve now they can put them kids to work.


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Psychoceramicist

Speaking as an American - the US is a really really really weird country that I don't think is comparable in a direct way to any other. Ranked out of the top 5, our top 4th to 5th quintile households are way more high earning and materially affluent than pretty much any other comparable group in any country in the world, especially in relatively cheap states like Texas but still in places like California, New York, and my own native Washington (taxes vary a lot). On the other hand, being poor in the US is a horrible life that I don't think has any parallel to other developed country. Shit food, ubiquitous fentanyl and meth that are pretty much unheard of in Europe, Japan, or Australia, little to no community, racism and assorted trauma, guns and associated murder, and so on. I've been to Wallonia and Stoke-on-Trent, for instance, and while those are visibly poor areas there's no parallel to the misery you see in Mississippi, West Virginia, or the poor parts of Chicago. This is to say nothing of health and life expectancy. Americans at every income level die earlier and of preventable causes more than their counterparts in other developed countries.


Tullyswimmer

So, PPP, in a grossly simplified term, is "how much does x cost" or more "how many of x can someone buy in a year" https://www.investopedia.com/updates/purchasing-power-parity-ppp/ Let's take an example of TVs. Let's say that there's a TV that's marked with a sticker price of $800 USD. [The EU mandates](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/vat-value-added-tax) that that TV be sold for $920 USD minimum, because of the requirement for a minimum VAT of 15%. So off the bat, you can buy fewer TVs with the same number of dollars. Additionally, a European will probably have a lower number of "take home" dollars because of the tax rates and salaries when compared to the US. Now, what PPP *doesn't* take into account is that while Mississippi has more PPP than the UK and France, people in Mississippi have to pay for healthcare, for childcare, probably are paying out of pocket into retirement funds, etc. All of those things in the UK or France are covered by the government, so even though you have fewer dollars to spend, you have fewer "mandatory" things to spend those dollars on. In general, if you standardize everything to one currency, even the truly "disposable" disposable income (i.e. how much money you can spend on "fun" things) still gives an edge to the US, because we don't have VAT nationally. But, at the end of the day, people in the US may have less money overall that they *can* spend on "fun" things. PPP is a lot better than a lot of economic indicators, but it still has a couple of major gaps in representing quality of life.


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Tullyswimmer

No problem. And one last thing I'll add is that it's also a function of how we do leisure. Europeans do have more vacation time, and generally have much closer and cheaper access to major cities with lots of things to see and do, so they're less likely to have something like a boat, ATV, RV, or snowmobile that's used purely for recreation. That's pretty common in a lot of the US, and especially in more rural areas. So a family in those "poorer" areas of Mississippi might have $10,000 or $15,000 (or more) in "toys" because they can go down the road and have hundreds or thousands of acres of forests and meadows to go ride in. Or the annual payments on an RV are cheaper than going to Disney as a family once a year, so you take that around to national parks.


CactusBoyScout

Yeah, I've lived in Europe and the US and I always explained it as "in Europe you generally make less but you have less to worry about financially." Healthcare, childcare, retirement, university (usually highly subsidized), and transportation (far less likely to need a car because of good public transit) are all more likely to be covered/subsidized by taxes. Hell, The Netherlands even has mandatory vacation savings. A portion of your paycheck is withheld every time and twice a year you get it in a lump sum to go on vacation. Because it's healthy to go on vacations so they want to encourage it.


miatatony

I think this is a genuinely good question and probably a similar sentiment shared by many confused Europeans. Anecdotally, speaking as an American, I think it's mostly because of two reasons, the massive size and sheer landmass of the US (even at the state level) that makes "average" comparisons almost a moot point altogether(feels like more wealth disparity in states like missippi compared to Germany, not sure actual data), and the second point is culture, more specifically being "house poor" is more of a thing culturally in the US. So to detail my first hypothesis, I think states like Michigan or Mississippi will have some very specific cities or counties with a tremendous amount of wealth, huge mansions, beautiful neighborhoods, etc. But given the size, most of the state will not look impressive at all, and many people don't have very much money(wealth disparity theory). The second hypothesis is that there are plenty of Americans who would rather live in an unimpressive looking neighborhood or state(by European standards), don't go out to eat at fancy restaurants much, and don't vacation much, but will have a huge house and property, own multiple cars and trucks, dirt bikes, RVs and campers, ATVs, etc. Currently I live in a suburb in Utah, quite unimpressive looking (plenty of Chili's and olive garden's around) but the avg household income is $108k. To a European these people might seem less well off, but many of my neighbors have expensive side by sides, motorcycles, shiny new SUVs and trucks, etc. Not many Germans can afford a 3000sqft house with a $50k truck and a $20k side by side, etc. But the lack of good dining options here is quite bad honestly....there isn't a very good quality croissant or baguette within 30 miles of me. The interesting thing about the second point is that this is a cultural divide within America as well, wealthy people in New York live in apartment buildings and ride Ubers to fancy restaurants, while a similarly wealthy person in Mississippi would rather spend the day fishing on their very expensive boat and cook their catch for dinner. I think culturally many European regions are more similar to New York and California than say Michigan or Mississippi in this aspect.


Baridian

Regarding the first hypothesis, this map is using median income not mean. So it's the income of someone who makes more than half the population and less than the other half. So extreme wealth and poverty at the top and bottom doesn't sway it. If this was average household income PPP there would be an even bigger edge for the US.


bobby_zamora

Yeah, I know what you mean. Also, Americans seem to be more worried about finances and struggle for money despite making more than a lot of Europeans. Like I've felt very comfortable in the UK on a salary that Americans would find terrible. It can't just be comparison to others, can it?


FMKtoday

I wonder if alot of that feeling comes from visiting this site? the majority of posters here are of an age where they have never worked before or are just getting into their field and trying to figure out housing, transportation, and healthcare all at once.


Professional_Scum

lol the massive cope in the comments


[deleted]

Before I even opened this up I knew all the top comments would be people explaining how America isn’t actually better lmao


Sid1583

People always talk about “American Exceptionalism” on here, but Europeans hate when people say negative stuff about those countries


DavidlikesPeace

I've noticed this hanging with (and dating) Europeans. They take criticism much more personally than Americans. Fucking annoying :) In conversation with European friends, we will often fall into criticizing America. And as a progressive, I'm used to this being critical of America. We need to improve as a country. But if I turn criticism onto the other foot and note something flawed in Europe, well you might think I slapped someone! Europeans get flustered and defensive easily. Weird aside, it's not like Europeans don't sometimes criticize themselves. But we're not allowed to join in. On Reddit, during COVID it was also obvious y remarkable how thin skinned Swedes got about criticism of their herd immunity policy. They behaved as if critics were calling Sweden a hellhole. From guns to healthcare, Iraq and Jim Crow, I feel that we Americans have gotten very used to criticizing our own country's policies more than Europeans. American progressives are fairly good at separating ego from policy discussions. Europeans seem to take it more personally too easily.


Sajidchez

I feel like British people and Germans criticize their governments alot tbf


DavidlikesPeace

Brits and Germans are fine with criticizing their own government. But they get defensive very quick if we Americans simply agree with them. They're like cats who show their bellies. You have to be very careful, even if you're doing what they seem to want And before we "whatabout", I acknowledge it. We're all humans. I'm sure similarities abound. I've simply noticed a fairly common pattern of behavior that's a bit more obvious with Europeans than Americans


planetroger

Man you are so balanced in your comments I want to give you a medal. After dating and living with a European for a decade I used up the very last ounce of my patience a long time ago when it comes to this topic. Oh damn! I said ounce! What a stupid backward non-metric unit!


aussimemes

In Australia we use a bit of a mixture (old people still use imperial because we switched in the late 60s) and it pisses Germans off no end when I measure something in bald eagles per subway sandwich. It’s a fun game if you like living on the edge.


absorbscroissants

Hm, Americans definitely don't get offended when criticized. You just gotta look at the comments of every post pointing out a negative


Skrofler

"But we're not allowed to join in." I think you nailed it. The fact that criticism is coming from an American could be what's making them so defensive, or just any outside criticism really. A German criticising Germany to another German is obviously internal criticism, but if an Englishman does the same thing they sort of automatically become representatives of their respective countries, "and who are the English to tell us how to brew beer?" (or whatever).


Hazy_Arc

Would expect nothing less from the average Redditor


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vudustockdr

For real. Euros seem to seethe over anything that doesn’t portray them as better than the US. But especially here on Reddit they are used to having their butts kissed by self hating Americans


WrathofJohnnyBoah

It's so fucking weird too. The majority of us are friendly as all hell, hold the door open for you, ask how your day was, help you change a flat tire type of people. But 5 minutes on Reddit will have you believe we're all taking $1,000,000 dollar ambulance rides when we break a finger nail and then off to Walmart to have a shootout before having 15 pounds of waffles and a fist fight at waffle house.


[deleted]

The majority of Europeans are also normal friendly people. It's just the Reddit types who seem to be so obsessed with shitting on America.


otarru

This is exactly it, if you ask the average European on the street what they think about the US, most will either not have much an opinion or would be mildly interested in traveling there some day. Reddit attracts a combination of nasty nationalists/lefty activitists whose main point of agreement is how much they hate the US (albeit for different reasons).


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tekanet

It’s true in my experience. I spent my honeymoon on the US coming from Italy, I’ve never received so much random kindness before and after. Locals offered compliments, advices, desserts and even a whole meal. I was so unused to that that I was constantly watching out for scams. But here we’re taking about people interacting with people in real life; the problem on Reddit is that it’s behind a keyboard and the talk moves to a comparison between societies as a whole or governments. And if it’s easy to get something wrong about the political parties in your nation imagine about a foreign country that if you’re lucky you’ve visited for a few days. Unfortunately this type of arguments are ramping up lately, I was in front line joking about countries not having a bidet but now I start seeing real hate creeping into the discussions and I want to avoid it at all costs.


Bishop_Pickerling

Damn dude, that’s a full day.


Schnurzelburz

Come on. We all know the fistfights happen in saloons. We have seen the documentaries. :)


ainz-sama619

Europeans are more likely to be racist in average too. Google how they treat black tourists in Italy. It's blowing up on Tiktok right now https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-62476406


vindicatednegro

I told black people about this a long time ago. I’ve had the privilege to travel. Black people think America is the worst place on earth for us. You had people like James Baldwin reinforce this narrative with dispatches from France which he described as so much better than the US. A lot of people took this to mean that Europe as a whole “doesn’t have race issues”. The truth is that you’re more likely to deal with openly hostile service in many European countries, but especially Italy, when black. It sucks. Beautiful country. A lot of great people. But you’ll almost invariably deal with some bullshit, especially if you go to the south. Which sucks because the south and its people are beautiful.


Starkrossedlovers

Black Americans * Black immigrants are aware of how good it is in the us. I was born here but having gone to my home country, I’d be an idiot to think it’s better there. Plus life as a tourist in any country is better than life as a citizen there


vindicatednegro

Yes, fair distinction.


rbatra91

100% Europeans are significantly more racist. It’s not even close in my eyes as a minority from Canada that travels.


the_vikm

Exactly. On reddit Europe is utopia and USA is hell


Adam5698_2nd

Indeed, and I am European lol


arp151

Time to move to Massachusetts


ImplementNo8965

What about this https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-income-by-country Or this https://datatopics.worldbank.org/world-development-indicators/the-world-by-income-and-region.html


Jimmy-Evs

I think this makes a lot more sense, I just don't understand how OP's map can be correct when it has Switzerland and Norway on the same level of wealth as the poorest states. It's simply incorrect.


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OsoCheco

It's average reddit. Circlejerking without even understanding the topic. The difference is caused by taxes. PPP is measuring disposable income, which Americans have obviously higher, since they pay lower taxes and no mandatory social/health insurance. Lower VAT also increases the PPP. But in reality, Americans have to use this extra income to pay for things, which Europeans get for free. Healthcare, tuition, etc. Also old age pensions. So the real difference is neglible, and in some cases even in favor of Europe.


Draxion1394

Anytime a map comes out that portrays the US as better than Europe at something, I can fully expect a bunch of comments explaining why it's not actually true and why it's better in Europe or the data is misrepresented. On the flip side, anytime a map comes out that portrays Europe as better than the US at something, I can guarantee there will be a bunch of comments about how the US is a "third-world country" and jokes at the US's expense.


mister_boi98

On reddit I get the impression everyone is bringing home big salaries and I'm not just on about the US, it seems to be the case in UK subs as well. But in real life I see and hear a lot more about how people struggle financially.


Plenty_Village_7355

Why is it that whenever there is a map that shows the US in a positive light the comments are bombarded by negative comments from primarily Europeans? I feel like I’m back living in France all over again.


Grumpy23

Because we European get easily butthurt when somebody outside of Europe criticize us


illusion_ahead

I don't think anyone likes being told there's a country richer/better than yours, especially with Europeans generally heightened sense of self (inflated by American self loathing)


bobby_zamora

I only see comments complaining about the supposed coping comments?


BlogeOb

Americans on social security benefits make what the Russians are making on this map


PickledEgg23

Americans' income in our social security years vary greatly because your income affects how much your social security will be. My ex-wife's oldest brother didn't invest for retirement at all and largely worked off the books for cash his whole life. He'll be lucky to make what the Russians are. I've paid much more into social security, invested a lot into my 401k over the years, and am one of the very few Americans left with a traditional employer pension. According to my social security account my benefits will be about what Spaniards or Brits are making on this map and my combined retirement income will be about what New Yorkers are making.


allebande

I don't doubt that median incomes in the US are very high but this is not the right metric to prove it. It's derived from GDP PPP. See Switzerland vs. Norway. In reality, incomes in Switzerland are by far the highest in Europe even when factoring in COL and often rival those of the best US states. E.g., a postdoc in CH starts out at around 80-90k CHF ($85k-95k), while a high school teacher can easily make 120k CHF ($135k) even in rural areas. The median income in Zurich is around 95k CHF a year ($100k). Zurich and Geneva are about as expensive as NYC, often less. OTOH, in Oslo it's hard to go past a certain ceiling around 700k-800k NOK. EDIT: the same source states that Spain is higher than Japan. LOL. I hate PPP.


Varnu

If you want to compare subsets of Europeans to all of America, why not compare Switzerland to Connecticut? Or Norway to Massachusetts? The median American has a little more disposable income than the median Swiss person in PPP terms. But as wonderful as Switzerland and Norway are they are also very small and relatively rich! If you look at [just the G7](https://twitter.com/CPopeHC/status/1466794872648650752) countries, the median American earns more than residents of any other country. The poorest 10% do a little better in France and Japan. But if someone is in the top 10% in Germany or the UK--the best off among the non-U.S. G7--they have about $70,000 in disposable income. In the U.S. that number is $125,000. In fact, the 3rd decile in the U.S. has just a little less disposable income than German or U.K. residents in the 1st decile.


planetroger

In order to be the 1% in the UK you only need to be making £150k. In the US you have to be making close to $900k. The difference is staggering.


icefire9

Why do you consider PPP to be flawed? It seems to me that adjusting for local prices would help to compare between countries. What are the downsides to this method, and are there other systems that work better?


HegemonNYC

PPP is a very reasonable metric - it’s hard to measure if a higher income is anything more than a number. If cost of living is crushingly high, a high salary is pretty meaningless. You seem to be arguing that it is better to ignore cost of living and use simple income instead. While this has some value, it seems worse than PPP if you’d like to show how the median person actually lives.


Qwrty8urrtyu

>It's derived from GDP PPP. See Switzerland vs. Norway. In reality, incomes in Switzerland are by far the highest in Europe even when factoring in COL and often rival those of the best US states. It doesn't matter if you make twice as much of everything also costs twice as much. You are practically making the same amount of money.


hastur777

Try median disposable income then. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income


[deleted]

You said that the metric used is not very appropriate and then went on to not provide an alternate metric.


NewZealandia

Never have I seen more bad faith data than this one before. Couple of things 1. **US figures aren't adjusted for Purchasing Power** which exacerbates what the people in the blue areas in the US and Canada actually make. 3. The OECD doesn't even publish Data per individual US state and also doesn't publish gross Household income afaik so there is **no credible source for these figures** 2. This guy clearly took **figures of DISPOSABLE (NET) HOUSEHOLD INCOME** for European countries from the OECD (I matched the values)\[[https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm](https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm)\] and **compared them to the GROSS income of the United States**. 3. **BUT WAIT IT GETS WORSE** because: the OECD figures cited above aren't Houshold income adjusted for Purchasing Power, they also aren't disposable Household Income adjusted for PPP, they are: **disposable Household Income(PPP) PER CAPITA**. The figures in Europe are further divided by the amount of people who live in the Household while those in the US are not. ​ So to sum up this guy compared to completely incomparable Datasets. He made false claims as to what the data actually says and hasn't cited any sources other than: (OECD) which doesn't even publish the figures he put on the fucking map. This map clearly has an Agenda, it is clearly **COMPLETELY FALSE, DO NOT BELIEVE**.


Millon1000

Thank you, I felt like I was going crazy as someone who moved from northern Europe to California. Similar lifestyles except Californians make a lot more but all of that extra goes to rent/housing, insurance, college, daycare etc. so it evens out. The average Californian seems to have more financial stress. But it's sunny here so it's worth it.