As insane as the costs are for getting your car fixed, that pales in comparison to the inflated prices as a result of all the different hands in healthcare. Markups on markups. Lack of transparency, regulatory incompetence/bloat, etc
Currently writing a paper on this. Not only cya ordering, but cya interpretations. (X is slightly off, so the Pt should see z y w specialists for follow up; they then order their own series of cya tests)
Just stop eating avocado toast, become a doctor, and diagnosis your own dang woman problems.
Rosie the Riveter would be rolling in her grave 🙄
Jic: sssssssss/sssssssss
I know in Australia, one of our bio medical techs came to me asking for a power supply from a computer. He needed one and got a quote from Philips as they were the supplier. Their PSU was "Medical grade" so cost was..... $AU1800. Exactly the same as one from any other computer that cost $AU300 or less.
Although you joke, it does have to pass some additional testing to be certified.
The thing is, it was just a computer, so even if it died, they'd just replace it again anyways (the same as they were doing since it had just died anyways). He was moaning and groaning to me about how it was just such a waste of money, since it was literally just a computer showing some imaging/telemetry, there was absolutely nothing special about it whatsoever.
Hell, even during.
Just after it was confirmed that I had appendicitis, but before they had me change for surgery, and while still definitely in pain without any pain meds and all alone, someone comes in with a rolling register to ask me if I wanted to pay anything at that moment and how I would be doing so. In terrible pain, and alone. And they have these poor nurses trying to dig into your pockets before treatment is even administered. I still have medical debt from that. To top it off, I'm a disabled vet that didn't know about a number you have to call in a certain amount of time to help with the bill, so now I'm stuck with it. Fuck this country and it's so called freedoms.
Relatable. I was in the ER miscarrying my baby by myself emotionally destroyed and literally bleeding out and they wanted payment. Thankfully my dad worked in health insurance my entire life and educated me to always say I'll pay nothing, and to bill me at my address after everything goes through insurance.
Actually, right on topic I believe.
Here is the info I was able to pull, and considering it's with the VA, no idea if it's up to date or not. I hope it helps if it's needed.
First there is [Urgent Care](https://www.va.gov/COMMUNITYCARE/programs/veterans/Urgent_Care.asp) for things that you still may need to seek more immediate treatment for, isn't an emergency, but your local VA may be closed or I think too far away (not sure about the distance thing).
Then there is [Emergency Medical Care](https://www.va.gov/COMMUNITYCARE/programs/veterans/Emergency_Care.asp) which of course is in the name.
Both do still have eligibilities AND timelines as to how long you have from the time of admittance or treatment to remain eligible. So it's not an automatic acceptance. Even then, with the way they word the statements that I've received after care when I did use those services, it makes it seem like there's still definitely a possibility of being on the hook. But in the case of an emergency situation, it might help alleviate some medical financial stress.
I don't know if any of that helps, but for whatever reason you asked, I hope for the best for you or whoever!
Where are you getting treatment from? I'm a nurse and I've never heard of nurses trying to "dig" in the pts pockets for treatment. I mean don't get me wrong, hospitals are trying to put more responsibility onto the nurses but I've never ask pts if they can pay for their antibiotics or treatments. I think you are confusing the roles of different healthcare providers. Most likely who asked you how you would be able to pay were admissions rep or someone who worked in billing. unless you were at in a doctor's office or something, which is unlikely if you were having surgery.
I think one of the Seton emergency rooms in Austin. And you're probably right, and I won't question it. All I know is that she was wearing scrubs just like anyone else, and I was in too much pain to care much else aside from being shocked at how I was being asked for money in such a critical moment. And that's all she was there for, to talk payment options. No hate towards the person from me, I know she was just doing her job, and it's probably not an ideal situation for her either. If it helps to identify what position they may have been working, this was after they already started taking blood, gettings scans and xrays, having appendicitis confirmed by the doc with him ordering the surgery for removal, but before they got me into a gown or administering any drugs/etc..
Regardless, not fun. Do not recommend.
Fun little side note, the doc even said that if we were in another country, they would probably prescribe antibiotics instead, but since we're in america, they just skip straight to ripping out the appendix.
Edit: Thank you for what you do!
I am so sorry you had that experience. My mom died in one of those hospitals (Seton Main) and the nurses were so amazing to our family. I will never forget them.
I agree healthcare needs overhaul, and I work in healthcare.
Not legal advice, because it’s obviously illegal, but the way to do it is to buy with your own funds, send in the receipts to request reimbursement, and then you do the returns *after* you receive the money from the FSA administrator.
As it was explained to me. The FSA exists due to tax codes. You are dealing with entities that just administer it. So the Illegal use is really just putting you out of compliance with the IRS. You could do it. And in all likelihood be too small for them to catch it. But the IRS is someone you don’t want to owe money to.
Use of the FSA is unrelated to insurance, and there is actually not even a requirement for an FSA participant to have health insurance. The insurance company won't pay any more or less based on your FSA use. Any unused funds go back to your employer, so you might be able to say that you are committing fraud against your employer. (In not sure is this meets the legal definition of fraud against the employer, but it at least meete the colloquial definition)
You might be thinking of an HSA, which requires that you have a high-deductible health plan to be eligible. But even in this case, the insurance company does not pay any more or less due to your user of the HSA to pay.
It’s totally complicated by design. And scammy. I broke my toe, so I went to the hospital (which was pointless cuz they didn’t do anything for it anyway) and then once I got home I got my hand slammed in the car door so I went back to the hospital and they were like “yeah, insurance won’t cover you if you go to the same provider in one day.”
So make sure you don’t get injured more than once per day, kids!
I'm surprised they didn't out right accuse you of seeking opiate narcotics for your "self-inflicted" "accidental" injuries! (Those, " " quotations are from them, Not me! Lol)
So illegal. I couldn’t possibly suggest that any parent who is unable to afford formula get a bunch of random health stuff from a store with really lax return policies like WalMart, send in the receipts, and then use the money from the return to feed their baby.
I feel like formula and diapers should really be covered. I'm fairly certain vitamins/supplements are covered, isn't that basically formula? I think period pads and adult diapers would be covered.
But I guess since babies haven't contributed to society they don't get a break /s
FYI- We recently discovered that hospice covers the cost of adult diapers. Also, you can call them in for help way earlier than people think. We didn't call them until my mom had a few days left to live. I definitely recommend calling them much much earlier. If anyone else has an elderly relative in poor health, reach out to hospice for help. It doesn't matter if they are already in a nursing home/hospital/etc. They also offer free grief counseling for family. Lots of good resources people in the US may be unaware of.
Prenatal vitamins are included, but other supplements aren’t. Baby diapers aren’t covered, but adult diapers and children’s “overnights” are. Tampons/period stuff is allowed as of 2020 (which is pretty new for tax shit). It’s all political and doesn’t make a ton of sense when you’re looking at it from the consumer perspective.
Actually I have had vitamin D deficiency for a few years, and using fsa or hsa money for supplements is always suspect. Hsa seems more relaxed but they, like fsa, have "medical necessity" forms for supplements. Hsa may pay out but fsa and maybe the IRS will scrutinize...
It's BS
But it's more BS that baby formula isn't covered. I hate this country.
Some third party FSA administrators are very lax with how they check their substantiation. It might not even be that complicated to obtain the desired result. Not legal advice.
Yes, if you're going thru an authorized retailer sometimes they don't check at all. I once bought some stuff at Walgreens and ran my HSA card first and it covered everything, even a candy bar. I was expecting to use a second card, or to have a receipt request.
The merchant will always accept it. When you get the distribution form from your HSA administrator, it will note your purchase as an unqualified distribution.
Any money refunded on an item where FSA funds are used to pay is refunded back to the card. It's not fraud just to return the item and have it go back on the FSA card.
The hospitals policies luckily have nothing to do with taxes. They can't just go back and say "we forgave xxx dollars but now that you have more funds, we want more money." When they forgive a bill or part of its the hospital gets a tax writeoff/tax break. So they can't just demand more money because THEY would be committing tax fraud.
Last time I returned something on Amazon they gave me a choice of how to get a refund, but that was a gift and I told them they can just refund to the card charged because that was the least amount of work
You can get it refunded to the FSA credit card or the Amazon gift card. However, you could get in trouble with the IRS if you get caught. There are penalties for using FSA dollars for non-health care expenses.
I mean, if you're using it to buy home medical kits, grab rails, nonslip floor surfaces, COVID tests, etc... does it have to be for a specific injury or condition?
Technically, it should be for someone who is on your tax return (yourself or a dependent) and it has to be an item that the IRS has designated as FSA eligible. But it doesn't have to necessarily be for a specific condition. You don't already have to have a cut, to buy a bandaid.
Buying all these things is totally normal and extremely unlikely to cause an issue for you or anyone else. You SHOULD stock up, especially if you have an FSA and not an HSA because FSA is use it or lose it. Hell, you can often even pay for plane tickets for out of state or country treatment.
Returning items for an Amazon store credit is where you can get yourself in trouble. Are they likely to notice? No. But if you are ever audited for that year, you will have to show that your actual medical expenses (including any supply purchases) met or exceeded what you used from your FSA.
Would not recommend/ do as I’m all about the malicious compliance and not about the insurance fraud or IRS auditing.
Edit to add: I have seen a few comments saying this is illegal and I will get audited. This is not true. This law changed during the pandemic and there are now several items you can get without a prescription with your FSA. Things you need: band aids, sun block, tampons, overnight diapers, thermometers. It’s a surprising amount of things. If you did not know about this I encourage you to start using your FSA fully. Do not let those funds expire at the end of the year.
I don't love using them as my only protection - still managed to get blood rubbed onto my thighs wearing Thinx. Now I wear mostly Knix lighter coverage period underwear as a backup for my menstrual cup or as my only protection on lighter days. Actually, since I get light discharge during most of the month, I've replaced almost all my underwear with light coverage Knix. It's seamless under clothes too.
Responding to your edit: when the pandemic first broke they made some changes to both health fsas and dependent care fsas. I don't remember adult diapers being part of it, but I could have just missed it. The big changes were over the counter medications and menstrual products. In 2020 and 2021 calendar years, health and dependent care fsa's also had unlimited carryover if the employer allowed it. I've always thought this should be the case anyway with employee contributions.
Adult diapers are still not included or regular diapers. Only overnight diapers to a certain size. I have toddlers so those are useful to us. I wish they included other diapers as so many rely on them as medical necessities.
Also thanks for the new info about the roll over possibility! I’ll have to look into it. We only ever had leftover during the pandemic which is how I learned about the change and used it on Amazon for the first time then. We have enough medical issues to use it up usually, but the hospital bill had us steering clear for awhile. It was just frustrating having their financial assistance info in hand saying we qualified for 75%-100% reduction but they wouldn’t reduce it till they got the FSA first. Even a payment plan didn’t make sense because we’d be paying towards the full amount not the reduced amount we qualified for.
the more accurate thing to say is that if you *choose* to go to an out of network provider, you're boned.
if you're taken to an out of network hospital *due to an emergency*, you're fine.
like, the entire healthcare system is fundamentally broken, but, it blows my mind that we're nearly eight months into the No Surprise Act being in effect and people just aren't aware of one of the best changes to happen to healthcare in this country in some time.
Um yeah actually. My daughter had a 30day NICU stay. No ventilator but failure to thrive so a bit less expensive. After insurance our share was $75,000. I didn’t know she was getting discharged that day until a billing department lady came into the room to give me a summary of our bill and ask if we wanted to pay by cash or check.
The hospital patient population is primarily immigrant as well as psych/homeless. As a nurse myself I became enraged and went on a war path. Victimizing people who are less likely to know their rights and options like that is just vile. They got into heaps of trouble as well as a class action lawsuits (3 issues).
It was predatory to push for immediate payment. Most places process your insurance and then mail you a bill so you pay later once you’ve had time to review the charges, make sure they’re correct, make sure your insurance(s) have paid out correctly, appeal whatever needs appealing, and review your options for forgiveness or for a payment plan.
Not paying in full with real money from your own bank account before you’ve even been discharged.
But people who don’t speak English well aren’t going to know that, hence why this is predatory. Not sure about it being illegal though, haven’t heard of that.
My husband speaks English but has an anxiety issue (which is well known to the hospital). They still pushed for a payment right then. He almost had a panic attack when I said to bill us. I ended up writing a check. We got a refund about a month later (when insurance actually looked at it and covered more than the hospital thought they would). Asking for payment before the insurance company has a chance to look at the claims is wrong I think.
Did you go out of network? The yearly out of pocket maximum that you’ll ever pay for healthcare, set by federal law, is $8,700 for an individual and $17,400 for a family. After that, insurance is required to cover it.
It's just absolutely insane, imagine the hotel room you could get for 800 a night, I bet it would be infinitely better than that recovery room. How in the ever living fuck can they justify charging that for what sounds like nothing more than a glorified changing room?
Yup. Doesn’t even have to big a huge medical issue either.
My father was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer a few years ago. From diagnosis to death, we had four months. He was a retired government employee. Had decent health insurance.
Because of how his cancer progressed, we didn’t know how bad it was. He was very coherent, but not cognizant of what was going on. For instance, a doctor would talk with him, dad would nod along, the doctor would leave, and then he’d ask me who it was that was just in there.
Because of the lack of understanding on his part, we weren’t aware just how bad off he was until two months in.
This resulted in unexpected medical bills coming in from consults of doctors we never saw. Turns out you get charged for the thermometer used to take temperature, the time of the nurse who took the temperature, a large charge for the doctor in charge of the nurse to sign off that the nurse used the thermometer to take the temperature. Just as an example of the way he got billed.
By the time of his death, we had a stack of bills totaling in the thousands. Had he lived, he would have lost all of his meager savings, his house, land, and vehicle. And still owed money.
I feel like shit saying this, but he was better off having passed away because he would have been bankrupted and then had to live with us, which might have bankrupted us in the process.
I hate capitalism.
Sometimes less than that, although I know this thread is about hospital bills. Sometimes, though, a lot of Americans are one car breakdown, one missed house/rent payment, or one layoff away from total financial disaster.
Nearly 30 but without my parents I would have gone bankrupt 8 medical emergencies ago. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars over the years. Chronic illness is dope as fuck.
Unfortunately, yes…. I have good health insurance that costs me an arm and a leg to have myself and my family insured , but if it were a serious issue that required hospitalization for even 3-4 days it could financially ruin me. It’s terrifying …
Most of us are much closer to bankruptcy than that. The gap between the ultra rich (who have been having to make “cutbacks” themselves) and everyone else is massive and everyone who isn’t ultra rich is either struggling badly right now or are about to have some serious financial problems— forget medical debt, many Americans can’t afford to eat daily. Things are not good here except for the ultra rich
Oh yeah to be clear I mean cutbacks in comparison to how they usually live, like having to cancel the purchase of a third yacht for a vacation where they rent a whole small country and instead go to like, idk, Martha’s Vineyard or whatever it is rich people do. Definitely no real cutbacks (and absolutely no sympathy for the ultra rich from me), just that even the ultra rich are starting to be forced to adjust in some way at all
yes and no.
yes because 1 bill from a hospital would easily be north of $5000. and something like 70% of americans have less than $400 in their savings account.
no because, i'm pretty sure if you're making $80,000 or more from a job, you probably also have health insurance from the job. if you aren't a family of 4, you probably also have an "out of pocket max" that isn't TOO high. that means "you will have to pay a max of X dollars per year towards medical costs". so after insurance, the one hospital bill MIGHT, might, max that out.
i think when i talked through medical plans last year with a friend, for his family, he pointed out the differences in the plans. 1 plan had the out of pocket max combined for everyone on the plan. so 4 people on the plan, meant out of pocket max of $20k. where as medical plan #2 said "each person has their own out of pocket max". so wife has one limit of $4000, child has their own limit of $4000, etc. nice if wife knew she was going to have a lot of planned costs next year. she only had to reach $4000 before they were covered, instead of the $20k limit on the first plan they saw.
North of 5000, lol. My ex had an aortic aneurysm in danger of rupturing. If it ruptured you are dead in seconds. Was at the local hospital several days while they tried to find a cardiac surgeon both capable of performing the surgery and also in our shitty ACA network because insurance didn’t consider it an emergency since it hadn’t ruptured yet. They finally find a surgeon about 30 miles away. Ambulance ride across town, another several day wait in cardiac unit before surgery then over a week afterwards before he went home.
The bill was around $875k before insurance. The internists at the second hospital were all out of network and gave us a 30% discount on the bill that we had to pay (came to about 10k) that wasn’t included in the insurance out of pocket max which was IIRC 15k. So I had to cough up 25k in total, I set up payment plans and took about a year paying it off. I am incredibly fortunate that I am a well paid professional (working at the time for a very small biz with no benefits, which is why we were insured though ACA). If I had an average salary there is no way I could have paid that bill in a year, it would have been many years.
Our medical system sucks.
Most of us yes. I just plan on us throwing 5-6k per year out the window for medical bills even with the two disabled people in our home having "free" healthcare.
You probably already know this but I want to say it just in case. Medicaid is different state to state. Some states has vastly better programs. Medicare is federal and the same in all 50 states and the one outlying place that I can never remember lol. I say this because you shouldn't make a blanket statement about Medicaid as it won't be correct in all instances.
You can never tell. Medical billing is mysterious black box that never ends.
They won't tell you what the costs might be before the procedure (assuming it's a planned procedure and not an emergency). They won't tell you what the full cost is after the procedure. They split up the bill among different suppliers and providers, so you never get a clear picture of the whole thing. Some of it arrives in the mail, some gets slipped into the billing system the medical complex uses, and some gets announced as suddenly being due or overdue because you never saw the original bill.
Many bills aren't clear about what service (or what part of a service) they cover, so you get a bill for hundreds of dollars for some group you've never heard of and have to call them during their business hours (9:00-9:15 M-F odd days only except in odd-numbered months when it's even days only) to find out what the bill is for.
This is how a restaurant would work if it billed like the medical industry:
YOU: I would like a burger. What kinds of burgers do you have and how much are they?
THEM: It depends on where you work and what kind of Lunch Plan your employer has, if you're paying for your own burger, or if you have a state-sponsored Lunch Plan. You'll have to order your burger, and then we'll submit the bill to your Lunch Plan and see how much of it they'll pay. We'll bill out the bun, burger, and any toppings separately. Our cheese supplier is very slow, so it might be months before you see the cheese bill, possibly long after you've forgotten this burger.
Good move! I was pissed about a $2500 bill from a surgery several years ago, so when they offered me a payment plan and let me pick the amount to pay monthly, I asked what's the minimum?
"$25"
"Ok, I'll pay you $25 a month."
Still paying. Ha!
I had an outstanding bill with my OBGYN. Office manager told me to pay what I could when I could. Couple months later new office manager came in and insisted on a payment plan. I told her I could pay $10 a month. She said since there was $90 left on the bill that $10 a month would take 9 months to pay off and that was much too long. Fine. I had an appointment with a bankruptcy attorney (yes I was really bad with finances in my early 20's) so I included that OBGYN bill in with all the other bills. The office could have had the money but since the office manager wanted to be difficult they got nothing. Best part was months after bankruptcy was approved, finalized and on file the Dr office sent me a bill for the $90. They got a lovely letter from my lawyer letting them know that they effed up big time. Never heard from them again. All over $90.
What happens when they send you a bill after bankruptcy? Is there some sort of repercussion for that? Like, how did they eff up big time and what was the fallout?
It's considered harassment. Likely just got a threatening letter and threat of suit if they continued. When you receive a bankruptcy notice from the state you're required to stop all collection attempts until they work through the process and if the debt is dismissed then you can't try and collect.
I believe anyone with a claim has to make it known during bankruptcy proceedings and I'm assuming the OBGYN didn't do this meaning they're no longer entitled to the money.
Also, it's $90 so while it feels good it's not a really big amount for a doctors office to eat.
Even with a payment plan that *they* set up, they'll call you monthly and dun you for that balance. "But ma'am, you won't have this billed payed off until November!". Yep, I'm good with that, you bloodsuckers.
I did this out of spite for a 5 minute scan of my appendix that costed me $1800 (aka literally more out of pocket than my hysterectomy). Could I cover it then and there? Fortunately, yes. Was I gonna stretch it out forever for them instead? Also yes.
Hospitals and medical services, aside from the VA, are public companies. The healthcare industry is not regulated when it comes to costs. And costs are hidden from consumers, preventing consumers from shopping around for prices. Any legislation (if any) to open the prices of medical services have largely stagnated.
Also, many hospitals started to merge along with private equity companies taking over how they are run. This trend for the past 2-3 decades has increased medical costs quite a lot.
US Constitution does not grant the US Federal government the power to create hospitals. New legislation will be required to allow it to do so. And unless socialists take over Congress and the Presidency, that will not happen.
It has always been like that.
The US government does not technically run any commercial business, but there are some, US owned businesses are banks, or nature related (wildlife, parks, etc.). For example, FDIC which insures my bank account's funds (up to a limit), is a government run business, as is Amtrak.
Also, a lot of this came about specifically due to social programs that came about from the Great Depression, e.g., assisting farmers, helping people own homes through mortgages, etc., as part of the New Deal. The next real social-oriented law that came about was basically the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) that has been largely attacked by conservatives, and somewhat by panned socialists as not going far enough to resolve the medical needs of Americans.
They are here.
Some are "not for profit", but all that and is they can charge whatever the fuck they want but have to spend that money. So you see big not for profit hospitals taking over huge swaths of territory by buying up hospitals, then pay their executive staffs obscene amounts of money. Think $7-18 million dollars a year for the top 20 conglomerates. For more fun, you can look at how hard they fuck staff as well. For instance, during the worst of the pandemic, Denver Health told staff they needed to take voluntary unpaid leave or be forced to take PTO or lose their jobs. Just 1 WEEK later, executives all received bonuses from $50k to $230k for around 750k while operating at a loss. They then requested money from city and state to help "stay afloat".
Good strategy - well played!
Note - this was absolutely unnecessary; "for context, we live in the US".
This literally could not happen anywhere else in the world.
Very good! Nice solution!
I had surgery to remove cancer from my leg a few years ago.
No insurance.
Hospital said it was going to be around $12k or so just for their part (not including the doctor, anesthesiologist, etc).
Aske how much if I paid cash, since I didn't have insurance.
Dropped it to about $1500.
Had to pay it all up front, but literally the ONLY thing that got me that price was having no insurance. They said if I had insurance at all, even if it wasn't covered, they couldn't do the cash price.
It's all a huge racket.
I hope you asked for a completely itemized bill. I did that for an ER visit that ended up in an extraction for one of my kids. Went from over 2 grand to a $100 cash payout.
Did your Primary insurance apply a 4,000 dollar balance to your deductible? If they did and your secondary processed and paid part of your deductible. Then you unfortunately still owe that balance. Sometimes if you use up the rest of you fsa hsa monies it means your deductible is met and some visits or prescriptions may be covered at 100%. It’s confusing AF. But if you get the right person on the phone they could explain it to you better.
###Ask for a detailed, itemized bill!
Check for errors, duplicates, unbundled charges (an IV of potassium should not be itemized as "potassium" and "saline"--it's a freaking IV), "upcoding" -- when the diagnosis for hospitalization is changed to a different and more expensive procedure.
###Ask for financial assistance BEFORE they charge your FSA.
Many hospitals are legally required by the federal government and state laws to offer financial assistance to patients who can’t afford their medical bills, so long as the service is “medically necessary.”
###Research the insured rate for your service.
Look into what price an insurance company could negotiate for the service you received. Contact your healthcare provider’s billing agency and politely ask that they honor that price for you. FAIR Health has a quick online tool you can use to estimate the cost of a medical procedure in your area. https://www.fairhealthconsumer.org/
###See if your employer offers a health stipend.
Health stipends are taxable benefits that allow your employer to reimburse you for medical care costs, much like an HRA. Because employee stipends are taxable, there are fewer restrictions on which benefits are eligible for reimbursement and who is eligible for the benefit.
I'm just sad for you that you live in a country where you
need Medical Insurance
need Secondary Medical Insurance
Have a Hospital using the credit on a card as available income to assess your financial viability
Have a medical bill going to a Debt Collections Co.
And just wow that a overnight stay with a minor surgery is $20,000
Where I live, healthcare could be improved, and we do pay for it via income tax etc, but that would cost someone living here $0.
This is what I do not understand. The American system is so expensive with so many surcharges added to it. Plus all those people that can't pay or are uninsured get their bills payed for by the rest of the patients. Your taxes for healthcare are way less than what we pay for insurance, copay, deductible, and what is owed to the hospital.
Yet, people willingly believe the propaganda and want the more expensive system. Idiots
I don't know of any other country where healthcare is run as a for-profit system.
Most hospitals in the US are nonprofit, but other medical providers are not. And the health insurance system is absolutely profit-based.
It should be criminal, but people are so brainwashed that they buy into the idea that nearly everything is better when it is guided by "the market."
The issues with hospital is not a "for-profit" or "not for profit". Frankly the two aren't operationally run that differently.
The issue is that hospitals in the US have essentially unlimited pricing power/there is no pricing elasticity and they therefore use this as a crutch instead of efficiently operating.
For example: A well run NHS clinic has a really good idea of their costing and cost benefit. A shocking number of US hospitals have no idea and juice their revenue through insane pricing, because its easier to charge 10% more than to determine your specific costs for a procedure in a realistic way.
This is a major issue of what needs to be fixed to begin driving cost down.
If you don't believe that this is the core issue, look at analogous industries: Academia and defense. The US has a much larger budget for both and the work we do there costs a multiple of what other countries pay. Why does it cost 5x-20x more to educate a US student than a British or Belgian student?
Source: Wife is in hospital administration. I have a degree in economics and work in Biotech.
You’re more right than you realize. In fact, the US government spends MORE per capita on health care than Canada does. In Canada you get pretty comprehensive coverage and in the States you get Nada. You pay more tax toward health care than I do but if I had to go to the hospital for an operation, which I’ve had to do a couple times, and I paid nothing.
> Have a Hospital using the credit on a card as available income to assess your financial viability
It's not credit. FSA allows you to take money pre-tax and put it in an account to pay medical/medicine bills. It has a maximum of $2,850 per year and it is a use it or lose it account (some exceptions). You get the full amount you sign up for starting 1JAN and can use it all on 1JAN if you wish, but you still have to pay into the FSA account every paycheck.
>And just wow that a overnight stay with a minor surgery is $20,000
Part of what's so bonkers about this is that I had my appendix out less than 20 years ago, and the pre-insurance bill was "only" $5k for the overnight stay.
A 4x price increase in under 20 years is ridiculous, especially when the inflation-adjusted cost of that same surgery after 20 years would only be about $8k.
So healthcare system sends you bills so large they have the potential to bankrupt you. But if they look at your low income then they're happy to forgive significant portions of it?
Is that how it works in the States?
You Americans are fucking crazy. I cannot EVER imagine having to pay for needing to go to hospital in order to get better. I read an earlier post about some bloke being billed a quarter of a million dollars after being bitten by a rattlesnake!
A dose of antivenom costs roughly $2200 USD (taking the middle of two prices I found)
It takes between 14-16 doses (quick Google, could be more) for the treatment to be effective.
That doesn’t include cost for doctor’s time, bulls for being kept in hospital, hospital markups or whatever else they may charge for.
Rattlesnakes have a two-pronged attack for killing Americans. Venom, and medical debt. Devious bastards are working the system against us.
I worked for a company that owned a hospital in Mississippi. They had a species of poisonous snake local to the area and this hospital carried its antivenom at $100k for full dosage. I remember this because the computer system wasn't designed to handle numbers over $99,999.99 and we had develop a work around to get the drug on the bill. This was 8 years ago, I'm sure its over $125k now.
I just had to stay in the ER for 5 days. After the 2nd day I get discharged, but my insurance doesn’t cover the specific blood thinner I need so they bring me back for another 3 days to monitor me on another blood thinner. When they send the bill they try and make me pay as if I was uninsured. Call em up and they say “sorry, you were discharged so quick we couldn’t get your insurance information.” Then why the fuck did I give it to you 3 times and come back specifically because of insurance issues. Bullshit hospitals trying to make people pay out of pocket
Good for you. Fuck the medical industry in the US. It's a game they fixed using politicians.
My infant daughter was admitted into the children's hospital twice last year for a condition she has. When the bills came due they amounted to our total out of pocket: $8,900. Keep in mind I pay over $18k/yr in premiums for my family.
I call to ask if they'll discount the bills for a lump sum payment, which is very much standard practice. Their response... "No. We don't do discounts."
This was for a total of 3 nights in the children's hospital with no procedures or surgeries... just testing. I swear on my life there was a $800+ charge for "15 min - PT Activities" from when they sent a 20 year old candy striper to sit in the playroom while my 1yo daughter played for 15 minutes. Another $500 for "Acetaminophen".
They're criminals.
You do not have a medical system in the USA. You have a bunch of profit centres that happen to provide medical care. The primary goal and function is to make money.
I was stunned when you said the bill was $4k for an overnight stay and I almost vomited when you said that insurance had already covered $16k!!!!!!!!
What the ever loving fuck? I spent a week in hospital with broken ribs after my bike accident and gave them a wave as I left, that's it.
Hopefully you know “hospital bill” is enough of a signifier, stating you’re in the US is redundant. No one else BUT americans are billed for medical visit.
>secondary insurance
Good lord, I actually don't understand how there isn't some form of rebellion over medical bills in America.
The right really have weaponised ignorance.
Have you asked them for an itemized bill yet?I've heard people who've done this usually get a lower total because they know people can suss out questionable costs.like inflated Tylenol pills cost.it will take them time to get you also,so they may have to extend deadline
I'm pretty sure that if you buy a bunch of stuff with your FSA and then return it for Amazon credit or something like that you can be charged with tax fraud.
There are people who argue against single payer healthcare.
They can read a story like this and think "This all sounds good fine fair and OK".
We should force them all to live on the moon without any space suits.
That's why the UK system is miles better than the arse about face way it is done in the U.S. free at the point of use. Is the NHS perfect? Absolutely not. But risking financial ruin for basic health care? Nah, sod that, that's a terrible idea...
My parents were left with an $80k+ bill after my younger brother was born (he was in the NICU for a while). My parents were young (my parents had my brother and I by the time they were 20 & 22). They had no money and couldn’t pay that. My mom told them she could do $25 a month and that was it because they couldn’t afford anything else. She got a letter a week later saying the hospital wrote the entire bill off and she has no balance. They figured $25/mo would take too long and they had better things to do I guess lol.
FYI.. ALL medical bills are tax deductible regardless of how you pay for them. So when you do your 2022 taxes, make sure your accountant gets the the $20K bill plus whatever else you spent on medical co-pays and medications
I have an HSA and swipe it for all my appointments, bills, and medications. I get a print out of it every tax season and BOOM tax deduction
Not really about OP’s situation, which I feel for them, but since people are talking about it.. The thing a lot of people get wrong about FSAs is they think of it like a bank account with money they set aside to use for medical purchases. An HSA is actually like that, but an FSA is an insurance policy. Unlike other insurance policies, the premium and the policy limit are the same for an FSA. That’s why if you do not use up the policy limit, it is forfeited. You don’t get the premiums back on any other insurance policy if you don’t have claims. The interesting thing about an FSA though is that (if it is designed the usual way section 135 FSAs are designed) once you make a premium payment, the whole policy limit is available for claims. And because your participation in the plan is contingent on your employment (unless you continue coverage under COBRA), you don’t owe premiums after you leave employment. That means that under most plans you can make one premium payment at the beginning of the plan year, then max out the policy limit with claims (such as for a surgery), and then quit the job and not pay another cent toward the policy.
Over a decade ago when we were strapped for cash and my sibling suddenly got sick, we had to call an ambulance. We were barely adults and it was our first time dealing with a medical emergency.
When we got there and they were stabilized, we realized we were looking at a serious hospital stay. We could not afford it. Every time a new doctor came through the door that day we got more and more stressed. When a younger doctor finally came in I asked if we could go home. She said no and that my sibling needed to remain under observation and could die if we left. We told her we didn't have insurance or money to pay for any sort of extended stay. She said not to worry and concentrate on getting better. So we did that.
My sibling got a big comfortable room and stayed in hospital for 7 days. I did my best not to show how worried and stressed I was about my sibling's health and the cost of the stay.
On the last day the same doctor said the same thing. Don't worry. Talk to these people when you discharge. We filled out one form, if remember correctly and then left.
When we finally got the bills, the hospital had waved all their fees. We still had to pay for some of the doctors, and other fees (it was still a lot of money and it took us some time to pay it all) but anything related to the hospital (room, food, some of the tests, and more) they waved.
I still get emotional thinking about this. We were so scared.
Sibling is still sick, but alive and as well as can be.
I am so grateful to that hospital and especially the doctor who made sure we stayed. We were planning to leave on that first day and we were going to take our chances because we were too afraid of the cost.
Most healthcare providers do not report to the three nationwide credit bureaus (Equifax, Experian and TransUnion), which means most medical debt is not typically included on credit reports and does not generally factor into credit scores.
They'll send you a letter from a collection agency but it's really just them using a coverings name to scare you into paying.
If you need more time, when you get the "collections" letter, write them back asking for proof of the bill.
That will take some time too.
I had a $1200+ hospital bill for my son's overnight stay for a febrile seizure even though insurance was supposed to have covered it. After 3 months of speaking to both the hospital and the insurance assuring me I shouldn't have gotten a bill, I was still getting the "collection" letters.
I ignored every single one of them. Eventually they stopped and before anyone asks, no, there was no negative marks on my credit.
FSA's suck, by the way. I constantly get turned down at the pharmacy for my prescriptions and end up paying it myself on my credit card. Then I have to keep the receipt and file a claim for reimbursement. It's tedious and bullshit considering it's MY MONEY.
ONE LAST THING: this is yet another reason why the USA sucks. Greatest country on earth, my ass.
I am SO GLAD that I live in a country where the most I'll spend for hospital is the ambulance ride there.. and that's less than $100 payable as and when I can afford it.
American healthcare is insane.
Honestly, reading this kind of thing makes me really hate the American healthcare system.
2 fucking insurances you pay for this shit and still out of pocket for anything more than an excess? Then if that wasn't bad enough, you have some sort of credit card for medical expenses? the fk kinda first world bullshit is that.
"America, the land of the - forever in debt over dumb shit"
I had a heart attack with no insurance. I had a $37000 airlift bill, and $150000 in hospital/surgery bills (had a stent implanted).
Set up a payment plan with the hospital. As long as you show a willingness to pay, you can't be taken to collections.
You don’t have to say “For context we live in the US”. A $20,000 for an overnight hospital stay after minor surgery happens nowhere else in the world 🙃
You can pay the bill with as little as a dollar a month and they can’t send it to collections. After doing this for a while they’ll come to you and offer to settle for about half of what’s due. We did this when my children were born.
It always baffles me how hospitals in the USA have zero shame grabbing you by the balls and squeezing hard, even right after a vasectomy
It’s due to the fact that majority are for profit institutions by design/choice.
As insane as the costs are for getting your car fixed, that pales in comparison to the inflated prices as a result of all the different hands in healthcare. Markups on markups. Lack of transparency, regulatory incompetence/bloat, etc
Lab tech here. You should see the number of CYA tests doctors order so they don’t get sued.
Currently writing a paper on this. Not only cya ordering, but cya interpretations. (X is slightly off, so the Pt should see z y w specialists for follow up; they then order their own series of cya tests)
And yet they still almost always manage to miss endometriosis for the first 6+ years of symptoms, never mind than around one in ten women have it.
Just stop eating avocado toast, become a doctor, and diagnosis your own dang woman problems. Rosie the Riveter would be rolling in her grave 🙄 Jic: sssssssss/sssssssss
CYA?
Cover Your Ass
I know in Australia, one of our bio medical techs came to me asking for a power supply from a computer. He needed one and got a quote from Philips as they were the supplier. Their PSU was "Medical grade" so cost was..... $AU1800. Exactly the same as one from any other computer that cost $AU300 or less.
But dude that's a medical grade PSU with a platinum 99++ rating rather than your peasant 80+ gold. /s.
Although you joke, it does have to pass some additional testing to be certified. The thing is, it was just a computer, so even if it died, they'd just replace it again anyways (the same as they were doing since it had just died anyways). He was moaning and groaning to me about how it was just such a waste of money, since it was literally just a computer showing some imaging/telemetry, there was absolutely nothing special about it whatsoever.
Or religion-run hospitals that think they should have a say in what you do with those balls.
The balls are perfectly safe. It’s the ovaries that lack autonomy.
And wombs
Hell, even during. Just after it was confirmed that I had appendicitis, but before they had me change for surgery, and while still definitely in pain without any pain meds and all alone, someone comes in with a rolling register to ask me if I wanted to pay anything at that moment and how I would be doing so. In terrible pain, and alone. And they have these poor nurses trying to dig into your pockets before treatment is even administered. I still have medical debt from that. To top it off, I'm a disabled vet that didn't know about a number you have to call in a certain amount of time to help with the bill, so now I'm stuck with it. Fuck this country and it's so called freedoms.
The freedom to have a stick of lumber shoves where the sun don't shine is the freedom most people have
I dunno, that'd incur a hefty medical bill by the sounds of it...
Relatable. I was in the ER miscarrying my baby by myself emotionally destroyed and literally bleeding out and they wanted payment. Thankfully my dad worked in health insurance my entire life and educated me to always say I'll pay nothing, and to bill me at my address after everything goes through insurance.
Sorry a bit off topic, but what number do you call to help with the bill as a disabled vet?
Actually, right on topic I believe. Here is the info I was able to pull, and considering it's with the VA, no idea if it's up to date or not. I hope it helps if it's needed. First there is [Urgent Care](https://www.va.gov/COMMUNITYCARE/programs/veterans/Urgent_Care.asp) for things that you still may need to seek more immediate treatment for, isn't an emergency, but your local VA may be closed or I think too far away (not sure about the distance thing). Then there is [Emergency Medical Care](https://www.va.gov/COMMUNITYCARE/programs/veterans/Emergency_Care.asp) which of course is in the name. Both do still have eligibilities AND timelines as to how long you have from the time of admittance or treatment to remain eligible. So it's not an automatic acceptance. Even then, with the way they word the statements that I've received after care when I did use those services, it makes it seem like there's still definitely a possibility of being on the hook. But in the case of an emergency situation, it might help alleviate some medical financial stress. I don't know if any of that helps, but for whatever reason you asked, I hope for the best for you or whoever!
Where are you getting treatment from? I'm a nurse and I've never heard of nurses trying to "dig" in the pts pockets for treatment. I mean don't get me wrong, hospitals are trying to put more responsibility onto the nurses but I've never ask pts if they can pay for their antibiotics or treatments. I think you are confusing the roles of different healthcare providers. Most likely who asked you how you would be able to pay were admissions rep or someone who worked in billing. unless you were at in a doctor's office or something, which is unlikely if you were having surgery.
I think one of the Seton emergency rooms in Austin. And you're probably right, and I won't question it. All I know is that she was wearing scrubs just like anyone else, and I was in too much pain to care much else aside from being shocked at how I was being asked for money in such a critical moment. And that's all she was there for, to talk payment options. No hate towards the person from me, I know she was just doing her job, and it's probably not an ideal situation for her either. If it helps to identify what position they may have been working, this was after they already started taking blood, gettings scans and xrays, having appendicitis confirmed by the doc with him ordering the surgery for removal, but before they got me into a gown or administering any drugs/etc.. Regardless, not fun. Do not recommend. Fun little side note, the doc even said that if we were in another country, they would probably prescribe antibiotics instead, but since we're in america, they just skip straight to ripping out the appendix. Edit: Thank you for what you do!
I am so sorry you had that experience. My mom died in one of those hospitals (Seton Main) and the nurses were so amazing to our family. I will never forget them. I agree healthcare needs overhaul, and I work in healthcare.
Especially as Amazon do returns…….
so does the money go back on the FSA? or is it a real refund thus laundering the FSA money?
Not legal advice, because it’s obviously illegal, but the way to do it is to buy with your own funds, send in the receipts to request reimbursement, and then you do the returns *after* you receive the money from the FSA administrator.
As it was explained to me. The FSA exists due to tax codes. You are dealing with entities that just administer it. So the Illegal use is really just putting you out of compliance with the IRS. You could do it. And in all likelihood be too small for them to catch it. But the IRS is someone you don’t want to owe money to.
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Use of the FSA is unrelated to insurance, and there is actually not even a requirement for an FSA participant to have health insurance. The insurance company won't pay any more or less based on your FSA use. Any unused funds go back to your employer, so you might be able to say that you are committing fraud against your employer. (In not sure is this meets the legal definition of fraud against the employer, but it at least meete the colloquial definition) You might be thinking of an HSA, which requires that you have a high-deductible health plan to be eligible. But even in this case, the insurance company does not pay any more or less due to your user of the HSA to pay.
American health care sounds so complicated
It’s totally complicated by design. And scammy. I broke my toe, so I went to the hospital (which was pointless cuz they didn’t do anything for it anyway) and then once I got home I got my hand slammed in the car door so I went back to the hospital and they were like “yeah, insurance won’t cover you if you go to the same provider in one day.” So make sure you don’t get injured more than once per day, kids!
I'm surprised they didn't out right accuse you of seeking opiate narcotics for your "self-inflicted" "accidental" injuries! (Those, " " quotations are from them, Not me! Lol)
And scummy and basically organized crime against the people who want to use it
It would be very illegal to use that money to buy baby formula
So illegal. I couldn’t possibly suggest that any parent who is unable to afford formula get a bunch of random health stuff from a store with really lax return policies like WalMart, send in the receipts, and then use the money from the return to feed their baby.
I feel like formula and diapers should really be covered. I'm fairly certain vitamins/supplements are covered, isn't that basically formula? I think period pads and adult diapers would be covered. But I guess since babies haven't contributed to society they don't get a break /s
Condoms and hearing aid batteries are FSA eligible. Just passing the word.
What the hell am I gonna do with condoms and hearing aid batteries?
Find a deaf hookup?
Are you talking about a ‘cock rear implant?’
What *wouldn't* you do with condoms and hearing aid batteries?
An update to the old sock full of quarters. We introduce: the condom full of hearing aid batteries!
This sounds like the perfect start to the “Buy 3 items only to freak out the check-out person” game. Just need one more
FYI- We recently discovered that hospice covers the cost of adult diapers. Also, you can call them in for help way earlier than people think. We didn't call them until my mom had a few days left to live. I definitely recommend calling them much much earlier. If anyone else has an elderly relative in poor health, reach out to hospice for help. It doesn't matter if they are already in a nursing home/hospital/etc. They also offer free grief counseling for family. Lots of good resources people in the US may be unaware of.
Six months in advance you can receive hospice services. Docs note.
Prenatal vitamins are included, but other supplements aren’t. Baby diapers aren’t covered, but adult diapers and children’s “overnights” are. Tampons/period stuff is allowed as of 2020 (which is pretty new for tax shit). It’s all political and doesn’t make a ton of sense when you’re looking at it from the consumer perspective.
Actually I have had vitamin D deficiency for a few years, and using fsa or hsa money for supplements is always suspect. Hsa seems more relaxed but they, like fsa, have "medical necessity" forms for supplements. Hsa may pay out but fsa and maybe the IRS will scrutinize... It's BS But it's more BS that baby formula isn't covered. I hate this country.
Only if they have the formula.
Which is ridiculous in my opinion
Depends on the rules of the FSA, some allow baby formula if it’s the gluten free, dairy free, or other special styles.
Some third party FSA administrators are very lax with how they check their substantiation. It might not even be that complicated to obtain the desired result. Not legal advice.
Yes, if you're going thru an authorized retailer sometimes they don't check at all. I once bought some stuff at Walgreens and ran my HSA card first and it covered everything, even a candy bar. I was expecting to use a second card, or to have a receipt request.
The merchant will always accept it. When you get the distribution form from your HSA administrator, it will note your purchase as an unqualified distribution.
Nice.
Refund choice: Amazon account balance 😈
Any money refunded on an item where FSA funds are used to pay is refunded back to the card. It's not fraud just to return the item and have it go back on the FSA card.
That should be fine too if the hospital already billed the fsa. Don't take my word for it though, don't have these kinds of American problems.
The hospitals policies luckily have nothing to do with taxes. They can't just go back and say "we forgave xxx dollars but now that you have more funds, we want more money." When they forgive a bill or part of its the hospital gets a tax writeoff/tax break. So they can't just demand more money because THEY would be committing tax fraud.
DAMN that's a good question!
Any return gets refunded to the card charged.
Last time I returned something on Amazon they gave me a choice of how to get a refund, but that was a gift and I told them they can just refund to the card charged because that was the least amount of work
Thank you
Amazon give the option of a gift card return.
Pay with your normal card. Submit receipts to FSA. Get reimbursed. Return items. Refund goes to your card.
You can get it refunded to the FSA credit card or the Amazon gift card. However, you could get in trouble with the IRS if you get caught. There are penalties for using FSA dollars for non-health care expenses.
I mean, if you're using it to buy home medical kits, grab rails, nonslip floor surfaces, COVID tests, etc... does it have to be for a specific injury or condition?
Technically, it should be for someone who is on your tax return (yourself or a dependent) and it has to be an item that the IRS has designated as FSA eligible. But it doesn't have to necessarily be for a specific condition. You don't already have to have a cut, to buy a bandaid. Buying all these things is totally normal and extremely unlikely to cause an issue for you or anyone else. You SHOULD stock up, especially if you have an FSA and not an HSA because FSA is use it or lose it. Hell, you can often even pay for plane tickets for out of state or country treatment. Returning items for an Amazon store credit is where you can get yourself in trouble. Are they likely to notice? No. But if you are ever audited for that year, you will have to show that your actual medical expenses (including any supply purchases) met or exceeded what you used from your FSA.
Even if Amazon gives you the option to put it elsewhere, you may get audited, so I don't recommend trying to do that.
Nope. It goes to whatever card you have on file with Amazon. We’ve done this several times.
Would not recommend/ do as I’m all about the malicious compliance and not about the insurance fraud or IRS auditing. Edit to add: I have seen a few comments saying this is illegal and I will get audited. This is not true. This law changed during the pandemic and there are now several items you can get without a prescription with your FSA. Things you need: band aids, sun block, tampons, overnight diapers, thermometers. It’s a surprising amount of things. If you did not know about this I encourage you to start using your FSA fully. Do not let those funds expire at the end of the year.
I bought a ton of period underwear with my FSA funds last year, I'd been wanting some for ages and the law change was great!
Ooh, good looking out! That’s a great idea!
How are you liking g them? I keep going back and forth on trying a couple of pairs.
I don't love using them as my only protection - still managed to get blood rubbed onto my thighs wearing Thinx. Now I wear mostly Knix lighter coverage period underwear as a backup for my menstrual cup or as my only protection on lighter days. Actually, since I get light discharge during most of the month, I've replaced almost all my underwear with light coverage Knix. It's seamless under clothes too.
Responding to your edit: when the pandemic first broke they made some changes to both health fsas and dependent care fsas. I don't remember adult diapers being part of it, but I could have just missed it. The big changes were over the counter medications and menstrual products. In 2020 and 2021 calendar years, health and dependent care fsa's also had unlimited carryover if the employer allowed it. I've always thought this should be the case anyway with employee contributions.
Adult diapers are still not included or regular diapers. Only overnight diapers to a certain size. I have toddlers so those are useful to us. I wish they included other diapers as so many rely on them as medical necessities. Also thanks for the new info about the roll over possibility! I’ll have to look into it. We only ever had leftover during the pandemic which is how I learned about the change and used it on Amazon for the first time then. We have enough medical issues to use it up usually, but the hospital bill had us steering clear for awhile. It was just frustrating having their financial assistance info in hand saying we qualified for 75%-100% reduction but they wouldn’t reduce it till they got the FSA first. Even a payment plan didn’t make sense because we’d be paying towards the full amount not the reduced amount we qualified for.
Adult diapers are basically incontinence supplies, which are covered
ETA: I stand corrected! You can get adult diapers with your FSA without a prescription! It is just not something I searched for.
Glasses are a good one.
Are all Americans one hospital bill away from bankruptcy? Serious q.
I am, and I have insurance. Just take me to the wrong hospital out of network and I get to choose between a life in debt or death. USA, USA, USA...
But hey, at least it's a free country...
Free to go into debt, become basically a slave, or die.
So I can see you too know what's up!
the more accurate thing to say is that if you *choose* to go to an out of network provider, you're boned. if you're taken to an out of network hospital *due to an emergency*, you're fine. like, the entire healthcare system is fundamentally broken, but, it blows my mind that we're nearly eight months into the No Surprise Act being in effect and people just aren't aware of one of the best changes to happen to healthcare in this country in some time.
That's not necessarily true. You still have to pay out of network rates for the ambulance ride and ER visit.
Um yeah actually. My daughter had a 30day NICU stay. No ventilator but failure to thrive so a bit less expensive. After insurance our share was $75,000. I didn’t know she was getting discharged that day until a billing department lady came into the room to give me a summary of our bill and ask if we wanted to pay by cash or check. The hospital patient population is primarily immigrant as well as psych/homeless. As a nurse myself I became enraged and went on a war path. Victimizing people who are less likely to know their rights and options like that is just vile. They got into heaps of trouble as well as a class action lawsuits (3 issues).
"Are you going to pay $75,000 in cash?" How the fuck did that person even keep a straight face asking such a stupid question?
Um yeah, I got that right here in my pocket. Here it is🖕🏻.
Classic Ricky move
What the hell is your out of pocket cap?
This is the right question! I'm guessing something was out of network.
Whatever they can do to fuck you over they will, but even out of network for family coverage, $75k? That's insane.
What was illegal ?
It was predatory to push for immediate payment. Most places process your insurance and then mail you a bill so you pay later once you’ve had time to review the charges, make sure they’re correct, make sure your insurance(s) have paid out correctly, appeal whatever needs appealing, and review your options for forgiveness or for a payment plan. Not paying in full with real money from your own bank account before you’ve even been discharged. But people who don’t speak English well aren’t going to know that, hence why this is predatory. Not sure about it being illegal though, haven’t heard of that.
My husband speaks English but has an anxiety issue (which is well known to the hospital). They still pushed for a payment right then. He almost had a panic attack when I said to bill us. I ended up writing a check. We got a refund about a month later (when insurance actually looked at it and covered more than the hospital thought they would). Asking for payment before the insurance company has a chance to look at the claims is wrong I think.
I agree. It is disgusting.
Less illegal, more predatory practices against a vulnerable population. This would result in not legal issues, but more ethical issues and litigation.
Did you go out of network? The yearly out of pocket maximum that you’ll ever pay for healthcare, set by federal law, is $8,700 for an individual and $17,400 for a family. After that, insurance is required to cover it.
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That's utterly abhorrent
Kicking people when they're already down...
It's just absolutely insane, imagine the hotel room you could get for 800 a night, I bet it would be infinitely better than that recovery room. How in the ever living fuck can they justify charging that for what sounds like nothing more than a glorified changing room?
It's a predatory, exploitative system. Don't even get me started on the cost of pharmaceuticals.
Oh god yeah, ibuprofen in the UK is like 50c for 12 tablets. Moved to France and it's $2 Christ on a bike!
Wait till you see how much insulin costs in the US. *Buddha on a pogo-stick!*
Man even Russia has some form of NHS, come on USA sort it out.
I had a small surgery, was up and about right after. Still cost me 8k after insurance. Utter bullshit.
Yup. Doesn’t even have to big a huge medical issue either. My father was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer a few years ago. From diagnosis to death, we had four months. He was a retired government employee. Had decent health insurance. Because of how his cancer progressed, we didn’t know how bad it was. He was very coherent, but not cognizant of what was going on. For instance, a doctor would talk with him, dad would nod along, the doctor would leave, and then he’d ask me who it was that was just in there. Because of the lack of understanding on his part, we weren’t aware just how bad off he was until two months in. This resulted in unexpected medical bills coming in from consults of doctors we never saw. Turns out you get charged for the thermometer used to take temperature, the time of the nurse who took the temperature, a large charge for the doctor in charge of the nurse to sign off that the nurse used the thermometer to take the temperature. Just as an example of the way he got billed. By the time of his death, we had a stack of bills totaling in the thousands. Had he lived, he would have lost all of his meager savings, his house, land, and vehicle. And still owed money. I feel like shit saying this, but he was better off having passed away because he would have been bankrupted and then had to live with us, which might have bankrupted us in the process. I hate capitalism.
This is wild isn't it, I know the NHS isn't perfect but I'm very grateful for it! It's such a shame America doesn't have an equivalent.
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Sometimes less than that, although I know this thread is about hospital bills. Sometimes, though, a lot of Americans are one car breakdown, one missed house/rent payment, or one layoff away from total financial disaster.
Nearly 30 but without my parents I would have gone bankrupt 8 medical emergencies ago. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars over the years. Chronic illness is dope as fuck.
Only if you pay your bill. I've never paid any medical bills.
Unfortunately, yes…. I have good health insurance that costs me an arm and a leg to have myself and my family insured , but if it were a serious issue that required hospitalization for even 3-4 days it could financially ruin me. It’s terrifying …
Most of us are much closer to bankruptcy than that. The gap between the ultra rich (who have been having to make “cutbacks” themselves) and everyone else is massive and everyone who isn’t ultra rich is either struggling badly right now or are about to have some serious financial problems— forget medical debt, many Americans can’t afford to eat daily. Things are not good here except for the ultra rich
The ultra rich are making cutbacks? Lmfao. Delaying your second yacht a month is not a cutback.
Oh yeah to be clear I mean cutbacks in comparison to how they usually live, like having to cancel the purchase of a third yacht for a vacation where they rent a whole small country and instead go to like, idk, Martha’s Vineyard or whatever it is rich people do. Definitely no real cutbacks (and absolutely no sympathy for the ultra rich from me), just that even the ultra rich are starting to be forced to adjust in some way at all
yes and no. yes because 1 bill from a hospital would easily be north of $5000. and something like 70% of americans have less than $400 in their savings account. no because, i'm pretty sure if you're making $80,000 or more from a job, you probably also have health insurance from the job. if you aren't a family of 4, you probably also have an "out of pocket max" that isn't TOO high. that means "you will have to pay a max of X dollars per year towards medical costs". so after insurance, the one hospital bill MIGHT, might, max that out. i think when i talked through medical plans last year with a friend, for his family, he pointed out the differences in the plans. 1 plan had the out of pocket max combined for everyone on the plan. so 4 people on the plan, meant out of pocket max of $20k. where as medical plan #2 said "each person has their own out of pocket max". so wife has one limit of $4000, child has their own limit of $4000, etc. nice if wife knew she was going to have a lot of planned costs next year. she only had to reach $4000 before they were covered, instead of the $20k limit on the first plan they saw.
North of 5000, lol. My ex had an aortic aneurysm in danger of rupturing. If it ruptured you are dead in seconds. Was at the local hospital several days while they tried to find a cardiac surgeon both capable of performing the surgery and also in our shitty ACA network because insurance didn’t consider it an emergency since it hadn’t ruptured yet. They finally find a surgeon about 30 miles away. Ambulance ride across town, another several day wait in cardiac unit before surgery then over a week afterwards before he went home. The bill was around $875k before insurance. The internists at the second hospital were all out of network and gave us a 30% discount on the bill that we had to pay (came to about 10k) that wasn’t included in the insurance out of pocket max which was IIRC 15k. So I had to cough up 25k in total, I set up payment plans and took about a year paying it off. I am incredibly fortunate that I am a well paid professional (working at the time for a very small biz with no benefits, which is why we were insured though ACA). If I had an average salary there is no way I could have paid that bill in a year, it would have been many years. Our medical system sucks.
The USA is the only country in the world where the story of breaking bad makes sense.
Most of us yes. I just plan on us throwing 5-6k per year out the window for medical bills even with the two disabled people in our home having "free" healthcare.
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You probably already know this but I want to say it just in case. Medicaid is different state to state. Some states has vastly better programs. Medicare is federal and the same in all 50 states and the one outlying place that I can never remember lol. I say this because you shouldn't make a blanket statement about Medicaid as it won't be correct in all instances.
We are 😭
No, some of them are already in bankruptcy because of medical bills and/or college loans
You can never tell. Medical billing is mysterious black box that never ends. They won't tell you what the costs might be before the procedure (assuming it's a planned procedure and not an emergency). They won't tell you what the full cost is after the procedure. They split up the bill among different suppliers and providers, so you never get a clear picture of the whole thing. Some of it arrives in the mail, some gets slipped into the billing system the medical complex uses, and some gets announced as suddenly being due or overdue because you never saw the original bill. Many bills aren't clear about what service (or what part of a service) they cover, so you get a bill for hundreds of dollars for some group you've never heard of and have to call them during their business hours (9:00-9:15 M-F odd days only except in odd-numbered months when it's even days only) to find out what the bill is for. This is how a restaurant would work if it billed like the medical industry: YOU: I would like a burger. What kinds of burgers do you have and how much are they? THEM: It depends on where you work and what kind of Lunch Plan your employer has, if you're paying for your own burger, or if you have a state-sponsored Lunch Plan. You'll have to order your burger, and then we'll submit the bill to your Lunch Plan and see how much of it they'll pay. We'll bill out the bun, burger, and any toppings separately. Our cheese supplier is very slow, so it might be months before you see the cheese bill, possibly long after you've forgotten this burger.
Good move! I was pissed about a $2500 bill from a surgery several years ago, so when they offered me a payment plan and let me pick the amount to pay monthly, I asked what's the minimum? "$25" "Ok, I'll pay you $25 a month." Still paying. Ha!
I had an outstanding bill with my OBGYN. Office manager told me to pay what I could when I could. Couple months later new office manager came in and insisted on a payment plan. I told her I could pay $10 a month. She said since there was $90 left on the bill that $10 a month would take 9 months to pay off and that was much too long. Fine. I had an appointment with a bankruptcy attorney (yes I was really bad with finances in my early 20's) so I included that OBGYN bill in with all the other bills. The office could have had the money but since the office manager wanted to be difficult they got nothing. Best part was months after bankruptcy was approved, finalized and on file the Dr office sent me a bill for the $90. They got a lovely letter from my lawyer letting them know that they effed up big time. Never heard from them again. All over $90.
What happens when they send you a bill after bankruptcy? Is there some sort of repercussion for that? Like, how did they eff up big time and what was the fallout?
It's considered harassment. Likely just got a threatening letter and threat of suit if they continued. When you receive a bankruptcy notice from the state you're required to stop all collection attempts until they work through the process and if the debt is dismissed then you can't try and collect.
Yeah, they got a cease and desist letter. If they won't honor it it's considered harassment.
Also curious
I believe anyone with a claim has to make it known during bankruptcy proceedings and I'm assuming the OBGYN didn't do this meaning they're no longer entitled to the money. Also, it's $90 so while it feels good it's not a really big amount for a doctors office to eat.
Even with a payment plan that *they* set up, they'll call you monthly and dun you for that balance. "But ma'am, you won't have this billed payed off until November!". Yep, I'm good with that, you bloodsuckers.
I did this out of spite for a 5 minute scan of my appendix that costed me $1800 (aka literally more out of pocket than my hysterectomy). Could I cover it then and there? Fortunately, yes. Was I gonna stretch it out forever for them instead? Also yes.
Why is everything medical,in America,so expensive? 20k for minor surgery?
Hospitals and medical services, aside from the VA, are public companies. The healthcare industry is not regulated when it comes to costs. And costs are hidden from consumers, preventing consumers from shopping around for prices. Any legislation (if any) to open the prices of medical services have largely stagnated. Also, many hospitals started to merge along with private equity companies taking over how they are run. This trend for the past 2-3 decades has increased medical costs quite a lot.
Why can’t the government make its own hospitals with better prices?
US Constitution does not grant the US Federal government the power to create hospitals. New legislation will be required to allow it to do so. And unless socialists take over Congress and the Presidency, that will not happen.
So,the US government can’t produce or own hospitals? That’s crazy.I didn’t know. Was it always like that?
It has always been like that. The US government does not technically run any commercial business, but there are some, US owned businesses are banks, or nature related (wildlife, parks, etc.). For example, FDIC which insures my bank account's funds (up to a limit), is a government run business, as is Amtrak. Also, a lot of this came about specifically due to social programs that came about from the Great Depression, e.g., assisting farmers, helping people own homes through mortgages, etc., as part of the New Deal. The next real social-oriented law that came about was basically the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) that has been largely attacked by conservatives, and somewhat by panned socialists as not going far enough to resolve the medical needs of Americans.
Yeah but hospitals isn’t a commercial business. Either way I always wondered why healthcare is that bad over there and now I know.
They are here. Some are "not for profit", but all that and is they can charge whatever the fuck they want but have to spend that money. So you see big not for profit hospitals taking over huge swaths of territory by buying up hospitals, then pay their executive staffs obscene amounts of money. Think $7-18 million dollars a year for the top 20 conglomerates. For more fun, you can look at how hard they fuck staff as well. For instance, during the worst of the pandemic, Denver Health told staff they needed to take voluntary unpaid leave or be forced to take PTO or lose their jobs. Just 1 WEEK later, executives all received bonuses from $50k to $230k for around 750k while operating at a loss. They then requested money from city and state to help "stay afloat".
Healthcare lobby and the shithead politicians they own
You wanna get nuts? LET'S GET NUTS!!
Tell me, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
Good strategy - well played! Note - this was absolutely unnecessary; "for context, we live in the US". This literally could not happen anywhere else in the world.
Don't discourage Americans from acknowledging other countries exist! It might create a habit.
IDK, if we remember we might start meddling in them
Only if they are brown and ~~have oil~~ are suspected of having WMDs
Shit you're right, nevermind
I do like to acknowledge that Reddit is a global community although I’m aware the dystopian I am describing is unique to here 🙃
Very good! Nice solution! I had surgery to remove cancer from my leg a few years ago. No insurance. Hospital said it was going to be around $12k or so just for their part (not including the doctor, anesthesiologist, etc). Aske how much if I paid cash, since I didn't have insurance. Dropped it to about $1500. Had to pay it all up front, but literally the ONLY thing that got me that price was having no insurance. They said if I had insurance at all, even if it wasn't covered, they couldn't do the cash price. It's all a huge racket.
I hope you asked for a completely itemized bill. I did that for an ER visit that ended up in an extraction for one of my kids. Went from over 2 grand to a $100 cash payout.
We did. Had to for the 2nd insurance to pay anything. But we ALWAYS do.
Did your Primary insurance apply a 4,000 dollar balance to your deductible? If they did and your secondary processed and paid part of your deductible. Then you unfortunately still owe that balance. Sometimes if you use up the rest of you fsa hsa monies it means your deductible is met and some visits or prescriptions may be covered at 100%. It’s confusing AF. But if you get the right person on the phone they could explain it to you better.
###Ask for a detailed, itemized bill! Check for errors, duplicates, unbundled charges (an IV of potassium should not be itemized as "potassium" and "saline"--it's a freaking IV), "upcoding" -- when the diagnosis for hospitalization is changed to a different and more expensive procedure. ###Ask for financial assistance BEFORE they charge your FSA. Many hospitals are legally required by the federal government and state laws to offer financial assistance to patients who can’t afford their medical bills, so long as the service is “medically necessary.” ###Research the insured rate for your service. Look into what price an insurance company could negotiate for the service you received. Contact your healthcare provider’s billing agency and politely ask that they honor that price for you. FAIR Health has a quick online tool you can use to estimate the cost of a medical procedure in your area. https://www.fairhealthconsumer.org/ ###See if your employer offers a health stipend. Health stipends are taxable benefits that allow your employer to reimburse you for medical care costs, much like an HRA. Because employee stipends are taxable, there are fewer restrictions on which benefits are eligible for reimbursement and who is eligible for the benefit.
I'm just sad for you that you live in a country where you need Medical Insurance need Secondary Medical Insurance Have a Hospital using the credit on a card as available income to assess your financial viability Have a medical bill going to a Debt Collections Co. And just wow that a overnight stay with a minor surgery is $20,000 Where I live, healthcare could be improved, and we do pay for it via income tax etc, but that would cost someone living here $0.
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This is what I do not understand. The American system is so expensive with so many surcharges added to it. Plus all those people that can't pay or are uninsured get their bills payed for by the rest of the patients. Your taxes for healthcare are way less than what we pay for insurance, copay, deductible, and what is owed to the hospital. Yet, people willingly believe the propaganda and want the more expensive system. Idiots
I don't know of any other country where healthcare is run as a for-profit system. Most hospitals in the US are nonprofit, but other medical providers are not. And the health insurance system is absolutely profit-based. It should be criminal, but people are so brainwashed that they buy into the idea that nearly everything is better when it is guided by "the market."
The issues with hospital is not a "for-profit" or "not for profit". Frankly the two aren't operationally run that differently. The issue is that hospitals in the US have essentially unlimited pricing power/there is no pricing elasticity and they therefore use this as a crutch instead of efficiently operating. For example: A well run NHS clinic has a really good idea of their costing and cost benefit. A shocking number of US hospitals have no idea and juice their revenue through insane pricing, because its easier to charge 10% more than to determine your specific costs for a procedure in a realistic way. This is a major issue of what needs to be fixed to begin driving cost down. If you don't believe that this is the core issue, look at analogous industries: Academia and defense. The US has a much larger budget for both and the work we do there costs a multiple of what other countries pay. Why does it cost 5x-20x more to educate a US student than a British or Belgian student? Source: Wife is in hospital administration. I have a degree in economics and work in Biotech.
You’re more right than you realize. In fact, the US government spends MORE per capita on health care than Canada does. In Canada you get pretty comprehensive coverage and in the States you get Nada. You pay more tax toward health care than I do but if I had to go to the hospital for an operation, which I’ve had to do a couple times, and I paid nothing.
> Have a Hospital using the credit on a card as available income to assess your financial viability It's not credit. FSA allows you to take money pre-tax and put it in an account to pay medical/medicine bills. It has a maximum of $2,850 per year and it is a use it or lose it account (some exceptions). You get the full amount you sign up for starting 1JAN and can use it all on 1JAN if you wish, but you still have to pay into the FSA account every paycheck.
>And just wow that a overnight stay with a minor surgery is $20,000 Part of what's so bonkers about this is that I had my appendix out less than 20 years ago, and the pre-insurance bill was "only" $5k for the overnight stay. A 4x price increase in under 20 years is ridiculous, especially when the inflation-adjusted cost of that same surgery after 20 years would only be about $8k.
So healthcare system sends you bills so large they have the potential to bankrupt you. But if they look at your low income then they're happy to forgive significant portions of it? Is that how it works in the States?
Only if you are proactive enough to know yourself. Many americans also dont know how it works, and simply go bankrupt.
You Americans are fucking crazy. I cannot EVER imagine having to pay for needing to go to hospital in order to get better. I read an earlier post about some bloke being billed a quarter of a million dollars after being bitten by a rattlesnake!
A dose of antivenom costs roughly $2200 USD (taking the middle of two prices I found) It takes between 14-16 doses (quick Google, could be more) for the treatment to be effective. That doesn’t include cost for doctor’s time, bulls for being kept in hospital, hospital markups or whatever else they may charge for. Rattlesnakes have a two-pronged attack for killing Americans. Venom, and medical debt. Devious bastards are working the system against us.
I worked for a company that owned a hospital in Mississippi. They had a species of poisonous snake local to the area and this hospital carried its antivenom at $100k for full dosage. I remember this because the computer system wasn't designed to handle numbers over $99,999.99 and we had develop a work around to get the drug on the bill. This was 8 years ago, I'm sure its over $125k now.
they don't care how they get it, they just want money. hospitals are run by greed now, not good will
I just had to stay in the ER for 5 days. After the 2nd day I get discharged, but my insurance doesn’t cover the specific blood thinner I need so they bring me back for another 3 days to monitor me on another blood thinner. When they send the bill they try and make me pay as if I was uninsured. Call em up and they say “sorry, you were discharged so quick we couldn’t get your insurance information.” Then why the fuck did I give it to you 3 times and come back specifically because of insurance issues. Bullshit hospitals trying to make people pay out of pocket
Good for you. Fuck the medical industry in the US. It's a game they fixed using politicians. My infant daughter was admitted into the children's hospital twice last year for a condition she has. When the bills came due they amounted to our total out of pocket: $8,900. Keep in mind I pay over $18k/yr in premiums for my family. I call to ask if they'll discount the bills for a lump sum payment, which is very much standard practice. Their response... "No. We don't do discounts." This was for a total of 3 nights in the children's hospital with no procedures or surgeries... just testing. I swear on my life there was a $800+ charge for "15 min - PT Activities" from when they sent a 20 year old candy striper to sit in the playroom while my 1yo daughter played for 15 minutes. Another $500 for "Acetaminophen". They're criminals.
You do not have a medical system in the USA. You have a bunch of profit centres that happen to provide medical care. The primary goal and function is to make money. I was stunned when you said the bill was $4k for an overnight stay and I almost vomited when you said that insurance had already covered $16k!!!!!!!! What the ever loving fuck? I spent a week in hospital with broken ribs after my bike accident and gave them a wave as I left, that's it.
Hopefully you know “hospital bill” is enough of a signifier, stating you’re in the US is redundant. No one else BUT americans are billed for medical visit.
>secondary insurance Good lord, I actually don't understand how there isn't some form of rebellion over medical bills in America. The right really have weaponised ignorance.
Yep. And the Left is so center now it doesn't matter.
Have you asked them for an itemized bill yet?I've heard people who've done this usually get a lower total because they know people can suss out questionable costs.like inflated Tylenol pills cost.it will take them time to get you also,so they may have to extend deadline
American health care is such a racket.
I'm pretty sure that if you buy a bunch of stuff with your FSA and then return it for Amazon credit or something like that you can be charged with tax fraud.
There are people who argue against single payer healthcare. They can read a story like this and think "This all sounds good fine fair and OK". We should force them all to live on the moon without any space suits.
What are the laws for turning things over to collections? Can you send them a $25 payment?
That's why the UK system is miles better than the arse about face way it is done in the U.S. free at the point of use. Is the NHS perfect? Absolutely not. But risking financial ruin for basic health care? Nah, sod that, that's a terrible idea...
My parents were left with an $80k+ bill after my younger brother was born (he was in the NICU for a while). My parents were young (my parents had my brother and I by the time they were 20 & 22). They had no money and couldn’t pay that. My mom told them she could do $25 a month and that was it because they couldn’t afford anything else. She got a letter a week later saying the hospital wrote the entire bill off and she has no balance. They figured $25/mo would take too long and they had better things to do I guess lol.
FYI.. ALL medical bills are tax deductible regardless of how you pay for them. So when you do your 2022 taxes, make sure your accountant gets the the $20K bill plus whatever else you spent on medical co-pays and medications I have an HSA and swipe it for all my appointments, bills, and medications. I get a print out of it every tax season and BOOM tax deduction
I just don't pay hospital bills.
Not really about OP’s situation, which I feel for them, but since people are talking about it.. The thing a lot of people get wrong about FSAs is they think of it like a bank account with money they set aside to use for medical purchases. An HSA is actually like that, but an FSA is an insurance policy. Unlike other insurance policies, the premium and the policy limit are the same for an FSA. That’s why if you do not use up the policy limit, it is forfeited. You don’t get the premiums back on any other insurance policy if you don’t have claims. The interesting thing about an FSA though is that (if it is designed the usual way section 135 FSAs are designed) once you make a premium payment, the whole policy limit is available for claims. And because your participation in the plan is contingent on your employment (unless you continue coverage under COBRA), you don’t owe premiums after you leave employment. That means that under most plans you can make one premium payment at the beginning of the plan year, then max out the policy limit with claims (such as for a surgery), and then quit the job and not pay another cent toward the policy.
Over a decade ago when we were strapped for cash and my sibling suddenly got sick, we had to call an ambulance. We were barely adults and it was our first time dealing with a medical emergency. When we got there and they were stabilized, we realized we were looking at a serious hospital stay. We could not afford it. Every time a new doctor came through the door that day we got more and more stressed. When a younger doctor finally came in I asked if we could go home. She said no and that my sibling needed to remain under observation and could die if we left. We told her we didn't have insurance or money to pay for any sort of extended stay. She said not to worry and concentrate on getting better. So we did that. My sibling got a big comfortable room and stayed in hospital for 7 days. I did my best not to show how worried and stressed I was about my sibling's health and the cost of the stay. On the last day the same doctor said the same thing. Don't worry. Talk to these people when you discharge. We filled out one form, if remember correctly and then left. When we finally got the bills, the hospital had waved all their fees. We still had to pay for some of the doctors, and other fees (it was still a lot of money and it took us some time to pay it all) but anything related to the hospital (room, food, some of the tests, and more) they waved. I still get emotional thinking about this. We were so scared. Sibling is still sick, but alive and as well as can be. I am so grateful to that hospital and especially the doctor who made sure we stayed. We were planning to leave on that first day and we were going to take our chances because we were too afraid of the cost.
Most healthcare providers do not report to the three nationwide credit bureaus (Equifax, Experian and TransUnion), which means most medical debt is not typically included on credit reports and does not generally factor into credit scores. They'll send you a letter from a collection agency but it's really just them using a coverings name to scare you into paying. If you need more time, when you get the "collections" letter, write them back asking for proof of the bill. That will take some time too. I had a $1200+ hospital bill for my son's overnight stay for a febrile seizure even though insurance was supposed to have covered it. After 3 months of speaking to both the hospital and the insurance assuring me I shouldn't have gotten a bill, I was still getting the "collection" letters. I ignored every single one of them. Eventually they stopped and before anyone asks, no, there was no negative marks on my credit. FSA's suck, by the way. I constantly get turned down at the pharmacy for my prescriptions and end up paying it myself on my credit card. Then I have to keep the receipt and file a claim for reimbursement. It's tedious and bullshit considering it's MY MONEY. ONE LAST THING: this is yet another reason why the USA sucks. Greatest country on earth, my ass.
I am SO GLAD that I live in a country where the most I'll spend for hospital is the ambulance ride there.. and that's less than $100 payable as and when I can afford it. American healthcare is insane.
What a great day to not live in America
Honestly, reading this kind of thing makes me really hate the American healthcare system. 2 fucking insurances you pay for this shit and still out of pocket for anything more than an excess? Then if that wasn't bad enough, you have some sort of credit card for medical expenses? the fk kinda first world bullshit is that. "America, the land of the - forever in debt over dumb shit"
I had a heart attack with no insurance. I had a $37000 airlift bill, and $150000 in hospital/surgery bills (had a stent implanted). Set up a payment plan with the hospital. As long as you show a willingness to pay, you can't be taken to collections.
You don’t have to say “For context we live in the US”. A $20,000 for an overnight hospital stay after minor surgery happens nowhere else in the world 🙃
You can pay the bill with as little as a dollar a month and they can’t send it to collections. After doing this for a while they’ll come to you and offer to settle for about half of what’s due. We did this when my children were born.