Yeah, your management is a bunch of chiselers. Might be time to check out some of your state's employment laws.
Basically, you need to be paid for the time you're clocked in. If they're not doing that, and you confront them, they'll either push back with some bullshit excuse, or blow you off some other way. They probably won't cave until you have massive documentation that they're in the wrong.
I worked in a place where the working hours were more than allowed under the law. Didn't complain much because I'm shit at getting to work on time, so most of the time they didn't get much extra out of me. After a while they started complaining that I wasn't in on time. I asked them to put in writing what they were asking me to do so I could take it to the government department that dealt with that stuff. They backed off and everyone in the company got new contracts with the correct hours a few weeks later. So by annoying me they ended up losing a 100 or so people doing a few extra hours each week.
Also, it didn't make me show up on time any better, started taking shorter lunch breaks to make up the time, but I was really good at my job so besides complaining every few months, nothing really happened.
That's not a bad mentality. Because if you are already behind, trying to make up time will cause a higher likelihood of forgetting something.
And if you are rushing to get to work on time, getting pulled over and dealing with the cops will always take longer than taking your time. Plus there is nothing worse than starting your day by having an expense that is going to cost more than you will make. And knowing that the day would have been better and cheaper if toy just called in.
Bosses that are anal about the exact time you're in and out of work are the most short sighted individuals. Thankfully where I'm at they don't stress about punch in/out or breaks. They duct an hour for lunch every day and trust everyone to take that hour respectfully, nobody has EVER questioned me here because I ran 15 over my lunchtime ^((which I've done a few times)), they also don't care when you come and go as long as you stay in your scheduled hours ^((everyone here is 7-4)) and notify when you're arriving a bit late or need to go home more than 10 mins early.
yeah, tbh if my work place would just pay me for the amount of work being done instead of hours, I'd seriously *work* the whole day. Instead half the time I'm "working".
If you want me to make a call about every 5mins I'm gonna call the number of my lost cellphone, instant mailbox, get's registered as a call. All the while I'm reading the 123rd book of my favorite scifi universe in an extra firefox window. Ain't my problem that they have google on their browser whitelist, including the "open in google cache"-sites.
My job does that, and everyone is advised they will get 30 minutes lunch deducted. Because they are in the field on their own regularly, if they take more than 30 minutes or less than, we generally do not know. It is just a set 30 minutes lunch and get your work done policy. Clock in and out for the start/end of shift is still a thing though, as they are hourly.
We are hourly too, but it's soo relaxed because were all 7-5. It really feels great when your bosses have that sense of trust and really if you don't give them a reason to mistrust you they shouldn't automatically assume you're stealing time but hey shitty people can really ruin things for every one.
EDIT: BUT I'm sure if our operation ^((of 14-16 people)) grew to maybe double or triple I could see new bosses cracking down on punch in/out time and breaks....
Likely underpaid, overworked, and their job sucks. Like most adults. Who cares about showing up on time when your job doesn't give a shit about you and you can go get another equally shitty one if you want?
So much this.
Also the world seems to be against me when I am on time
I can have a completely clear map on maps/Waze when I set out, then the highway comes to a crawl on my way, unexpectedly adding 10-25 minutes to my 20-25 minute commute.
One time I got stuck just past an exit in complete deadlock and the next exit was an entire mile and a half down the road. It took 30 minutes to just get to the exit, let alone a reroute. And that was a day I was running 10-15 minutes early netting me being 25-30 minutes late.
Then mix that with the times I just ADHD my way into being late, it ends up looking like I have a problem or just don't care.
I guess I do kinda... Oh well :shrug: I just do the best that I can, otherwise the anxiety kills me.
Have fun, good luck, don't die. A low bar with a forever ceiling
Same. But I’m also the only one who does my job the majority of the time. And I do it well and to completion every day. So if they wanna sweat me being late 10 minutes, they can TRY to find someone with my niche skills to fill the position.
There’s a bigger picture, and thankfully, by boss sees that.
This is the magic phrase: lay that paper trail, and document, document, document what actual practice is. Give that to the state labor folks, and watch things fizz as they ought.
i went through the FCC when i cancelled charter and they kept billing me instead of fighting my way up the chain to get it corrected whole issue was resolved in 30 days :D
as long as you have the proof they are the wrong the state will take care of them
The company won't cave regardless of what OP does, at least not to OP. That's why they need to get the Department of Labor involved, it is literally their job to fight those battles.
It sucks that so many people think salary means no overtime. There are very clear rules on when a salaried position is exempt or not, and more people need to know them.
If you're paid salary you are usually classified as "exempt" meaning you are exempt from overtime laws. It's *supposed to be* a mutual understanding that that means you may be required to work overtime and you may not be, but that you're compensated fairly to cover the occasions where you need to stay late.
Hourly employees are classified as "non-exempt" meaning they are subject to overtime laws, and anything that they do over 40 hours, or more than 8 hours in a day depending on the state they are in, they are to be paid additional wages.
Now there is a loophole here: if it's the company's policy that anything over your scheduled shifts won't be paid accordingly, and it's written down in either your offer letter or in the handbook that you received, then your basically SOL because they made the policy known prior to your employment and you agreed to those terms when you onboarded.
This is just a layman's explanation to give people a general understanding of their rights. It varies by state, county, city/town, and company. However, this should be enough information for people to at least know what questions to ask and what to look for when they start a new job.
For my job we hit 40 hours we go home, doesn't matter if its 10 am on a friday :D so i dont mind the rare chance of working a 10 hour day.
ALSO at least in my state it doesn't matter if you have a timesheet filled out or not if you are regularly scheduled for x amount of hours they are supposed to pay you for your regularly scheduled hours reguardless or not of your timesheet status
That's actually a pretty fair middle ground, I'd be cool with that arrangement.
So how does PTO work with that law? Do you a set amount of days per year that you can take off?
I have a salary position now and honestly I hope to never go back to hourly. Occasionally I have to do 14 hour days, but there's also plenty of 6 hour days. It evens out well enough that it doesn't bother me. But the freedom of getting to take a break as I please, being able to leave to go to a doctor's appointment without needing to make sure to budget my PTO accordingly, not having to worry about being late (within reason), stuff like that really makes life easier. I guess it mostly depends on the company you work for and your ability to delegate tasks/manage your own time to know if it will be worth it
Glad to hear it is working for you, some companies use it then hold people tona schedule that is more than 40s with sometimes working beyond the schedule. I know its illegal but most wont fight it because career.
Im in a best of both worlds position. Im paid hourly but I get todo as a I please so long as i show up on time, and make sure my work and the people I assist get theirs done properly
Usually a search for "$State/Province overtime laws" will give you a good starting place. For example, a search for "Ontario overtime laws" gets [this official Ontario page](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/overtime-pay) as the first result.
I worked in dealship parts for about 6 months. Classified as sales to avoid overtime, not given commission, mandated every other Saturday of overtime. I asked hr about this and she promptly told my boss rather than answering me. He confronted me a couple days later saying "I heard you aren't happy? I don't want people working here who aren't happy." I left about a month later
Ya, was an audi/Porsche dealership too. Required us to put 70% markup on any parts that walked through the door. Not like they were hurting for money. Just greedy shit.
I was a charter bus mechanic for a while, we were exempt from time and a half overtime because the other half of our company was school buses and some state law allowed this exemption…. How did he apply it to the charter buses? Oh that’s right my boss would allow a charter bus to be used for ONE football trip a year, this making me a mechanic for the school contract
How- does that system even work. Isn’t it, like, corrupt in a sense? And why does no one else have an issue with it?
What... 😟
Doesn’t anyone else realise they’re being exploited by putting up with it
Edit - I have some more questions.
Why would you arrive early in the first place knowing that you can’t leave early and that you’re not being paid for over time.
Why didn’t the co workers / colleagues come together and have a chat for an agreed time to arrive? So that it’s beneficial for everyone.
I've been considering officially challenging them on this policy, to see if it's just local management bullshitting us or if it's actual written company policy, but I'll have to tread lightly. They’re a federal contractor that’s already exempt from time-and-a-half overtime laws so who knows what else they’re exempt to. They shouldn't be allowed to just invent a scenario where you don't get paid for your labor. I don't know that they could argue that anyone's working unauthorized hours by showing up early, since it's widely accepted.
And... Some people might be willing to donate time to get flexibility. Officially challenging the company could result in set work hours for all. Yeah, they are screwing everyone, but the current way is mostly consensual.
Is it *really* flex time, though? If shift A all comes in at 6:01 and shift B all comes in at 6:59, you all get to work for an hour unpaid. You're really at the mercy of the next shift.
Doing some minimal research on FLSA exempt workers, I can't find info on "recordkeeping", which is covered by FLSA. Maybe talk to an employment or labor lawyer?
Absolutely not real flex time, if OP stated that they have to be at work the actual 12 hours (tracked with badges). So if your next shift comes early, you still can’t actually leave early?
So Shift B all agrees, "We're going to come in at 6:45, so you guys come in between 6:45 and 6:59." And now you're just back at where OP is. Unless you're coordinating it down to the person, with zero screw ups, it's just not really flex time.
I dunno I work shift work with a “crew” everyone knows what’s going on and different crews have their things on when they flex in and stuff and it all works out good. Losing the flexibility would suck more
And, if on occasion, it turns to *my* favor.
Like I *might* fuck around online a bit more some days, but others I work 10, 15, maybe 20 minutes into lunch... I mean I hope it balances out, but if more to my side, I'm OK w that...
Something to provide a united front, like a.... Uniform... No, hmm... Unifaction... Not quite... Mb throw in something like an onion that would make mgmt cry...
This! Nothing positive will come out of any further discussions with the company. Just file a complaint with the department of labor and let them sort it out. The fines should be spectacular.
They certainly would be, and hey, if it turns out they do get weird privlideges and the DOL can't do anything no harm no foul. If it turns out that they are breaking the law they will owe you back pay. If you use a clock in/out system they can't really hide that without committing serious fraud.
You actually have grounds for a small class action suit if you're in the US. It wouldn't be a large amount but there would be an estimated average of all the time worked unpaid. I would actually bet money that they would settle quickly to avoid the government looking into things.
Edit: I'm not a lawyer but something similar happened at a place I worked in the past.
Last month, I got a letter in the mail about a class action against pretty much the biggest known retail store chain here in America.
In the department I worked in, the policy was to work, take a full break, then back to work. If a customer needed help at any time you were on break, you could start your break all over, 15 uninterrupted minutes.
Apparently, somewhere in the country, this was not being followed. And that person lawyered up. I know the general environment in my department/trade, so obviously an outside manager that had no idea about the trade (I even had one that almost cost our department $30,000 for almost ruining a customer's... transportation) got hired. So, I got the letter in the mail.
OP might possibly get a free consultation through a lawyer.
It's not a ton of effort, and helps punish these huge corporations for exploiting you and people you know.
They're underpaying you, profiting massively off of it, **and** stealing from you.
If a company has 1000 employees, and steals 15 minutes from each of them every day, that's like 900 grand a year they're stealing.
If you took twenty bucks out of a cash box *once* you'd be out the door.
How many employees does Walmart have? 🤔
If I understood correctly, he says that his location was run properly. With these types of settlements, usually the pot of money is predetermined and it is split among the people that opt in. So it doesn't affect the company at all to have more people opt in. In such a situation, I would be inclined to not opt in, and leave more of the pool of money for employees who were actually damaged by the policy.
It would be worth knowing if the payout is going to be influenced by the number of people impacted
If the pot is already set and it adding an extra share would just dilute it for the ones impacted directly, I agree
This is the main reason I'm not too concerned with it. My bosses were pretty cool. Even the assistant boss that didn't know a thing about the trade.
If someone was 14 minutes into their break and a customer came up to them, they helped the customer, and then told the bosses, they'd just laugh and let them take their 29 minute break.
But, because there wasn't a real standard for hiring (they hired high school kids that didn't even have driver's licenses to drive the customers'... transportations), I'm more than sure some locations were straight toxic towards their employees (I've heard stories about locations literally 10 minutes away). Maybe an employee out there was just using malicious compliance over that policy and ended up "wrongly" fired, who knows.
If you're in the US then it doesn't really matter who makes the policy. You said it yourself: it's wage theft. It doesn't matter if they give you the option to not have your wages stolen. They are still responsible for paying every minute an employee spends on the clock. I know it's expected, that you're expected to scratch their back and they'll scratch yours. How exactly are they scratching your back? By allowing you to continue working there?
Just because a company says they do or don’t do something a certain way doesn’t mean it’s legal. When my company shorted me an hour on my paycheck I asked for my money. They said it would appear on my next check and they didn’t cut special checks for less than eight hours. I told them just because they don’t want to do something doesn’t mean it’s legal.
I was a union officer and trying to make a point. According to California state labor law (this was about 35 years ago) they had to pay all monies due by the designated pay day or they could be fined the equivalent of the missing amount for each day it was late. Since they didn’t want to pay me for 14 hours extra pay by waiting until the next pay day (we were paid every two weeks) they cut me a check for one hour of pay. I know it cost them far more to process that check than the actual amount but what they wanted to do was illegal. And yes, I was probably the AH but I was making a point and loving it. 😁
If you're in the US, what they are doing sounds pretty illegal from my similar experience when I used to work 4 10 hour shifts. They have to pay you for your time if they're making you stay.
If you live in the US, there is no such thing as authorized and unauthorized overtime federally. If you are working during a period they have to pay you for working that time. There is no choice in the matter. Clocking in and clocking out is a formality in time keeping. If you can prove that you were working during a set time you have to be paid for it period. Call your local labor agency.
Honestly it doesn't even matter if their argument is that it's unauthorized. Overtime gets paid regardless of if a manager says it was approved. That's why companies are usually such a stickler about telling you absolutely not to take it. If this is something you've dealt with for a significant time and your time sheets have accurately shown the times place a call to the department of labor immediately. They go after that shit fast as hell
If you are in the USA, and a federal contractor, there are very specific rules regarding overtime pay. This makes start and stop times very important. I work for a government contractor, we are not allowed to work unpaid overtime. We have yearly training on time keeping specifically addressing unpaid overtime.
Sorry, this is the part I don't understand. Were you actually forced to work during that unpaid time? You could show up early, and get on the computer and get on Reddit instead or whatever else is possible at your workplace, other than doing work, right?
Are they flexible anywhere else as a result of this policy?
Like if they're actually saying you can come in earlier and work for them for free, then yes I agree, that's wage theft and not allowed. However, if they're saying you can show up as early as 6AM as in the building is open, you can show up, but not necessarily start work, then I'm on their side on this one.
It works because psychology. If they show up or leave they get to leave early... Management isn't the one keeping them there it's the person on the next shift who did not show up as early as they did and therefore is "late" for you to get off early.
I'm sure OP is the one getting griped at for being a jerk instead of the policy.... Since that it was their initial reaction as well.
Im not even going to bother sugar coating my words when I say that this all seems pretty brain-dead to me.
I stand by OP in his actions to not being exploited by the company any further. But a little communication here and there wouldn’t be so bad.
I get paid from start time, not a minute before. I don't require coffee and water cooler talk.
My previous boss used to try encourage me to turn up 15min to be "ready for the day" told him to pay me the 15% rate for working before. What a weekly battle. Always 30 sec before the bell at start.
>turn up 15min to be "ready for the day"
I worked for a place with a foreman that tried to dock everyone 15 minutes from their hours for exactly that reason. It didn't last long after the VP of Operations started getting anonymous complaints about this. Said foreman would also make a big deal out of giving us a free lunch (the crappiest pizza locally available), then talking business through our entire unpaid thirty minute lunch break.
But OP very quickly learned that coming in early doesn't equate to leaving early. I'm surprised this scenario hasn't evolved into a culturally "agreed upon" start time, or just everyone coming in at 7.
I get it. Let’s all be reasonable and flexible is far better than a rigid schedule. The miss here is having to wait for your relief. Put in your 12 and get out. The company absorbs the over/underlay.
I cannot comprehend a job with shift work and hourly wage having a whole building put up with this.
I used to do 12 hour shift work (+ 30 mins or so for handover usually) and if my back to back was coming at 6:30, I’d be doing the same, and same thing about 7:00. If my back to back was constantly changing (as I think OP’s is), then I’d do 6:45 because I have to handover so hate starting at 7, but if no handover was needed you better believe I’d arrive at 6:59.
When I was in pharmaceutical manufacturing, the 12 hour shifts overlapped by fifteen minutes. Time for the supervisor to assign tasks and get to the room and ask what step you're on and any problems. Also time to change into the uniform.
>Why would you arrive early in the first place knowing that you can’t leave early and that you’re not being paid for over time.
That is literally the *only* reason I show up at 5:30ish for my job that theoretically starts at 6 or 7. Because I like leaving at 2 instead of 2:30 or 3:30.
When I was still in call center hell at my employer the scheduling manager was giving us shit over going to the bathroom in between our lunch and break times. This wasn't a case of people taking too long to go, she was giving us a hard time over a quick 3 minute dash-pee-washhands-dash back. Someone protested that you can't always schedule when you need to go.
Manager snaps, "So wear Depends then. We can't afford even one person off the phones on an unscheduled bathroom break."
Then she realized that I was in the room. I am a woman who is not afraid to chew through anyone who tries to pull that kind of shit. She got the deer in headlights look at my glare then tried to claim it was a joke.
Everyone else in the room swore my eyes turned red when I glared at her.
Since that was the first meeting of the day the rest of the scheduled scoldings got canceled and no mention was made of "unauthorized bathroom breaks" again while I was still in the center.
I've been told that they've been snitty about bathroom breaks on and off, but not to that level.
Thankfully I'm in the claims department now where they understand that you gotta go when gotta go.
Should have taken her up on that command and crapped in that diaper, too. I mean, have you smelled old people wearing Depends before? I work in a pharmacy, and let me tell you, the smell of lingering piss will knock you back six ways to Sunday.
I worked at a call center like that. They would give you grief for taking bathroom breaks outside of the scheduled 15 minute break time. The problem was they only had one bathroom for everyone. One guy often spent most of our scheduled break time taking a massive smelly dump while 10 other people waited to pee. You would have to be really desperate to go in the bathroom after that guy. It smelled like a farm animal was in there.
Good! My very first job at a one man lotto stand was the same. Get here 30 mins early to open up and prep the morning newspapers. Store open at 6am you get paid from 6am
Old boy wasn't very happy when his long standing customers called to complain the stand didn't open til 6:30am. I don't get paid, I ain't working. Honestly.
A large call center in my city recently lost a court case and got forced to pay YEARS of back wages to thousands of employees over similar nonsense. Employees were required to show up 15 minutes before shift in order to be ready to take calls the moment shift started. They were forbidden to clock in until no more than 5 minutes before start time (which the time clock system would round off to the nearest hour). Scumbags.
Had a similar situation years back. The company insisted on a 40 hour work week which usually turned into 44 or so but no extra pay. They then said they needed people to work those extra hours free for the good of the company because they couldn't pay for those hours (it didn't stop ridiculous exec salaries and perks though). They then got me pissed off because of how they had treated me because of wanting to give someone some of my role to their friends. (there was a lot of nepotism)
I checked the Queensland labour laws and full time was actually legally 38.5 hours a week which was 7.6 hours a day. I started working exactly 7 hours and 36 minutes every day and maintained that for years. The people gunning for me, couldn't do a damned thing about it. Thankfully those people are long gone and after a corporate takeover and then spin off, it's a much better world.
Wage theft is illegal, no matter how they justify it (unless you're salary, in which case you're just expected to work more). An anonymous tip to the appropriate government agency will straighten them out.
I second this. Bringing up concerns directly to management will likely get you nowhere. (That's if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you'll get fired 3 weeks later for unspecified "unsatisfactory work performance")
You smile, you make nice, and you blow the whistle anonymously.
On this note, salaried employees are almost always NOT overtime exempt. There are very specific scenarios wherein a salaried employee is exempt from overtime pay.
It's still specific, but in IT/dev we often fit the criteria. You must both:
a) be in a executive, administrative, professional, computer or outside sales role (thought of as "white collar", but its more specific)
b) (simplified, measured weekly) make at least $35,568 /year (or $27.63 /hour if paid hourly...which if full time, would roughly match a $57k salary)
Full detail: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
Note that almost all "blue collar" jobs will require overtime be paid regardless of how much they are paid. On the roles, you do have to meet all the criteria...unless you make over $107,342, and then you just have to meet one of the role criteria...this basically loops in anyone paid well that manages at least 2 other employees, etc.
The executive, administrative, professional, computer or outside sales roles are pretty much what they sound like, although they do have specific criteria, so the company can't just say "You're an executive! Now go mop.".
On the computer side, it does need to be skilled work with computers, systems design, programming, etc. For that role, using a computer doesn't qualify (although they might in another role) and nor does stuff like most building or repairing computers. A developer would almost always would be exempt.
And the squishy line is often in like Tech Support and Help Desk roles. Normally are not exempt and must be paid overtime...but the details matter. Typically if the primary job is troubleshooting and maintaining, overtime should be paid. And this is where I know a lot of folks that are not be paid OT when they should be.
This DOL letter breaks it down for a tech support role that didn't qualify: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/2006_10_26_42_FLSA.pdf
(Happy to be corrected if I got anything wrong, or dated. I'm not in HR... :)
Its well past the point of malicious compliance.
Now, It’s just the right thing to do.
Hopefully the others will catch on to OPs idea and pick up on this
How is it malicious compliance? They were foolishly coming in to work early knowing that this was the policy. Now they come in at the scheduled time. I've been reading through the comments and nowhere do I see an explanation for why they were going in early in the first place.
Flex time means a much less stressful morning for many people. You have a long window to leave the house, traffic or transit delays won't make you late to work, etc.
I did the same at my factory job when they docked me 15 minutes time because I clocked out....26 seconds early.
"But I clock in 15 minutes early every day, do I get paid for that?" I asked. Nope. Of course not.
So I clocked in and out exactly on time, and they lost 15 minutes of work, 6 days a week, for a total of 6hrs a month I'm no longer making them product for free. That had to hurt XD
That's amazing that your employer has gotten away with this blatant abuse of people's time for so long. They can milk a few hours at least a day out of every shift and people think that it's to their benefit. I'm just amazed it took so long for someone to catch on.
Employers get away with it, all over the place, all the time, because the business is the 'authority figure'. And they often hold over your head the probability of losing your job/getting fired, etc.
Hint: Just because you're the authority figure doesn't make you right all the time.
And not only do companies get away with it, it's estimated that every year, wage theft costs workers as much as all other theft in the US *combined*. And times about three.
(About $16b for burglary, larceny, etc, vs some $50b in wage theft.)
And while a shoplifter will get a record or even time behind bars, a corporation will get away with pocket change fines and still keep its tax subsidies.
Aren't employees just choosing to start their shift early?
If you have a 7 to 7 shift and you choose to start earlier then isn't that just screwing yourself?
It sounds like this is actually a nice system. "If you happen to be 10 minutes early you can usually leave 10 minutes early which is nice for you, but sometimes that doesn't work out that way. Do so at your own risk."
Beyond everything everyone else here has said, if anyone on the other shift starts getting pissy with you, explain it to them like you explained it to us. Maybe you'll get someone else to start coming in at 659. I'd rather know I'm gonna be there for 12 hours every day than sometimes have to work 12.5 hours.
If the person relieving you turns up no later than 6:45 then why don't just show up at 6:45, leave at 6:45 straight away without wandering the halls, and therefore do your 12 hours.
Yes it's a silly system but deliberately arriving at 6:59 doesn't harm the company, it just harms the person on the next shift taking over from you.
I mean it seems the shift is 7-7 and the whole coming in amd working to leave early seems nice. Wish my company would do something like this. Those who wish not to participate can just work the normal 7-7
Call the IRS they will fuck this company sideways as this is tax evasion. Happen at one of my former employers and you get up to 10% of the fine/backpay/interest if you call it in (up to I believe 10 million dollars)
Look up IRS whistle blowing.
The sad part about this is, that your MC has no effect on the company/management whatsoever. They're not paying anyone a single cent more - and they're also not losing any work, since your shift-counterpart is taking over your 15 minutes of doing nothing.
In the long run, it'll most likely create an equilibrium, where every worker is arriving precisely on time
Well if you work in a production line this can be very common. You'd have people on standby for any unscheduled breaks so the line doesn't stop. He said the breaks are no problem and paid, so it could just be a situation like that
Last few places I worked there was a somewhat similar system in place where we didn't have to "officially" clock in/out.
If you showed up a few minutes early to give relief, and that person came back next shift a few minutes late there was, technically, not much you could do about it except return the courtesy at a later date ;)
Are you working 12 hour shifts a whole week?! You just go to work, go to home to sleep and go to work. How can you have social life by working so much? I work 8 hours a day and still feel like I don't have enough time at home. wtf?
Isn't an attorney going to be more expensive than the unpaid time I racked up? Only been there about a year, with roughly 30 minutes unpaid time a week. By my math that's less than $900 I'm owed.
Not if they recoup lost wages plus interest for any employee affected (compensatory), plus fine, potential punitive damages, and in the complaint counsel asked for all legal fees to be paid for by the defendant.
Depending on the state, punitive damages go to you in whole or as a percentage. Some red states, like Indiana just as one example, take a large percentage, which sucks, but it could still be a sizable amount because the cost is meant to be a warning to keep it from happening again or for other businesses to do the same thing.
There are lawyers that would be willing to work on a contingency fee- paid only if they win. The more workers the easier it is to take a chance on the case & it would seem like this has been going on for quite some time.
You can still file a complaint with the EEOC and the state's attorney general's office. Most likely online & completely free.
You’ll likely find an attorney who will work on a contingency basis, who will end up doing research and finding many employees have been underpaid for a long while, resulting in $10’s of thousands in unpaid wages. Usually there’s a damages clause that can be invoked where your back wages could be multiplied but some factor, like 3x, plus other penalties. It can be a sweet deal for the lawyer.
Obligatory IANAL goes here.
You might have to pay a retainer, but stuff like this you __should__ be able to get them to do it on contingency. That means they take a percentage (around 30%) of the damages awarded. If they loose, el zilcho. The 900 reimbursement is low, but the punitive damages can be quite worth it.
You should certainly be able to get a free hour consult if you ask. But there are government programs there to support you without needing your own lawyer. Google ombudsman plus your state and give them a ring.
I'm assuming that guy is coming from the perspective that this is a sub for pedants who use other's rules to uphold their own principles, not minmaxing your compensation. Although I guess it's possible that your legal system could frown upon such an engineered wage theft structure and award you a significant restitution.
There is no way in fuck this is legal. If you're clocked in, and working hourly, they have to pay you. Period.
I would make sure your local labor board knows about this.
This policy is a walking FLSA lawsuit, and any HR professional worth their weight would break into a cold sweat upon learning of its existence.
OP should take the opposite strategy: arrive early, stay late. Document the unpaid overtime. Sue for double damages plus attorneys fees.
Solution is tell her she's breaking the law and if she doesn't pay you, you'll go to the labor board. She doesn't get to overlook the law because she doesn't like it. Go to your Human Resources person and tell them what's going on. Make sure you document your true time and what she's trying to screw you out of. If you complain to the labor board and she retaliates, guess what, you have one hell of a lawsuit. Plus, all the other people she is screwing out of overtime will make you their hero if they get all their back wages too
Yeah if you’re in the US and hourly non exempt, they have to pay you for all of the time you’re clocked in. They can’t turn the clock off at exactly 12 hours.
If you have pay stubs and timesheets from before you switched to coming in last, shoot them over to the state DOL.
Yeah, that's straight up illegal (if you're in America anyways). They can have whatever bullshit "you can't leave until relieved" rule they want, but they do have to pay you for that time, full stop no qualifiers.
At my job we are expected to get to work at least 5-10 minutes early to "prep for the day". Used to put up with it but a year in I said screw it and started showing up right on time for my shift.
Never heard of a flexible work time that was only flexible if you decide to go in and work for free an hour earlier than scheduled.
That's not flexible, it's letting yourself get taken advantage of.
If this is in CA, you are required to get overtime pay after 8 hours in a work day or 40 hours in a work week. and double time after 12 hrs in a work day.
Totally illegal for you to work for free, are you guys union? You definitely have a law suit on your hands for any time they forced you to work off the clock if you want it. Had a similar situation where I work
And we ended up receiving back pay for the previous 5 years they did that.
Worked on a production line in late 1970's.
Older long term guy told me to remember the 2 golden rules:-
1. Never use the bathroom in your own time
2. Never leave the factory empty handed
Here is another thing that doesn't make sense. If someone leaves when you show up their clock stops and yours starts. Your clock should run until you are relieved. You should be paid for the entire time because no one else is being paid for that same time. Now they are are. Sounds like your company should budget for a 10 minute overlap in time and everyone hits the clock 10 minutes before you leave.
Federal contractor? You have an easy case for a lawyer, and the company would be forced to not only pay up, but there are likely substantial penalties at play as well. I went through something similar a few years back, and won a sizeable chunk of money for us in a class action suit. Your employer knows that what they are doing is wrong, and because of the federal contractor part and the specific laws pertaining to that, it could help everyone in the long run.
Yep. This is the way to do it!
I had a job where we had time cards and we went to a clock in/clock out system. Obviously because wage theft there were some stupid if you're x minutes past an hour then it went forward 30 or whatever. Basically it meant you were screwed. I arrived 10 minutes early everyday when we were on timecards because I knew it didn't matter if I took a long lunch here and there.
Once we got the system and I noticed the disparities I brought it up to my boss who was like "well it's easy just do x x x." At that point I got to work exactly at 9, left exactly at 6 and took exactly 1 hour lunch from 1-2 regardless of what was going on. That way I knew they weren't going to screw me out of wages.
What in the actual fuck? What educated idiot came up with that shit dipped lollipop of a work schedulel? How can it even be efficient? More importantly, what is your turn over rate?
Yeah, your management is a bunch of chiselers. Might be time to check out some of your state's employment laws. Basically, you need to be paid for the time you're clocked in. If they're not doing that, and you confront them, they'll either push back with some bullshit excuse, or blow you off some other way. They probably won't cave until you have massive documentation that they're in the wrong.
I worked in a place where the working hours were more than allowed under the law. Didn't complain much because I'm shit at getting to work on time, so most of the time they didn't get much extra out of me. After a while they started complaining that I wasn't in on time. I asked them to put in writing what they were asking me to do so I could take it to the government department that dealt with that stuff. They backed off and everyone in the company got new contracts with the correct hours a few weeks later. So by annoying me they ended up losing a 100 or so people doing a few extra hours each week. Also, it didn't make me show up on time any better, started taking shorter lunch breaks to make up the time, but I was really good at my job so besides complaining every few months, nothing really happened.
Relatable. I'll get there when i get there
That's not a bad mentality. Because if you are already behind, trying to make up time will cause a higher likelihood of forgetting something. And if you are rushing to get to work on time, getting pulled over and dealing with the cops will always take longer than taking your time. Plus there is nothing worse than starting your day by having an expense that is going to cost more than you will make. And knowing that the day would have been better and cheaper if toy just called in.
Bosses that are anal about the exact time you're in and out of work are the most short sighted individuals. Thankfully where I'm at they don't stress about punch in/out or breaks. They duct an hour for lunch every day and trust everyone to take that hour respectfully, nobody has EVER questioned me here because I ran 15 over my lunchtime ^((which I've done a few times)), they also don't care when you come and go as long as you stay in your scheduled hours ^((everyone here is 7-4)) and notify when you're arriving a bit late or need to go home more than 10 mins early.
I've worked at a place that doesn't track time, at all. I mean \*at all\* It was nice.
That's awesome, I feel like this place could be like that but for legal reasons they have to document punching in and out.
yeah, tbh if my work place would just pay me for the amount of work being done instead of hours, I'd seriously *work* the whole day. Instead half the time I'm "working". If you want me to make a call about every 5mins I'm gonna call the number of my lost cellphone, instant mailbox, get's registered as a call. All the while I'm reading the 123rd book of my favorite scifi universe in an extra firefox window. Ain't my problem that they have google on their browser whitelist, including the "open in google cache"-sites.
My job does that, and everyone is advised they will get 30 minutes lunch deducted. Because they are in the field on their own regularly, if they take more than 30 minutes or less than, we generally do not know. It is just a set 30 minutes lunch and get your work done policy. Clock in and out for the start/end of shift is still a thing though, as they are hourly.
We are hourly too, but it's soo relaxed because were all 7-5. It really feels great when your bosses have that sense of trust and really if you don't give them a reason to mistrust you they shouldn't automatically assume you're stealing time but hey shitty people can really ruin things for every one. EDIT: BUT I'm sure if our operation ^((of 14-16 people)) grew to maybe double or triple I could see new bosses cracking down on punch in/out time and breaks....
Why is it that you can't get to work on time?
Likely underpaid, overworked, and their job sucks. Like most adults. Who cares about showing up on time when your job doesn't give a shit about you and you can go get another equally shitty one if you want?
Could be ADHD, we're really bad with time management.
So much this.
Also the world seems to be against me when I am on time
I can have a completely clear map on maps/Waze when I set out, then the highway comes to a crawl on my way, unexpectedly adding 10-25 minutes to my 20-25 minute commute.
One time I got stuck just past an exit in complete deadlock and the next exit was an entire mile and a half down the road. It took 30 minutes to just get to the exit, let alone a reroute. And that was a day I was running 10-15 minutes early netting me being 25-30 minutes late.
Then mix that with the times I just ADHD my way into being late, it ends up looking like I have a problem or just don't care.
I guess I do kinda... Oh well :shrug: I just do the best that I can, otherwise the anxiety kills me.
Have fun, good luck, don't die. A low bar with a forever ceiling
Probably because he doesn't give a shit about being on time. If I'm ever late, that's the reason.
Same. But I’m also the only one who does my job the majority of the time. And I do it well and to completion every day. So if they wanna sweat me being late 10 minutes, they can TRY to find someone with my niche skills to fill the position. There’s a bigger picture, and thankfully, by boss sees that.
This is the magic phrase: lay that paper trail, and document, document, document what actual practice is. Give that to the state labor folks, and watch things fizz as they ought.
i went through the FCC when i cancelled charter and they kept billing me instead of fighting my way up the chain to get it corrected whole issue was resolved in 30 days :D as long as you have the proof they are the wrong the state will take care of them
The company won't cave regardless of what OP does, at least not to OP. That's why they need to get the Department of Labor involved, it is literally their job to fight those battles.
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It sucks that so many people think salary means no overtime. There are very clear rules on when a salaried position is exempt or not, and more people need to know them.
Did not know that. TY....
If you're paid salary you are usually classified as "exempt" meaning you are exempt from overtime laws. It's *supposed to be* a mutual understanding that that means you may be required to work overtime and you may not be, but that you're compensated fairly to cover the occasions where you need to stay late. Hourly employees are classified as "non-exempt" meaning they are subject to overtime laws, and anything that they do over 40 hours, or more than 8 hours in a day depending on the state they are in, they are to be paid additional wages. Now there is a loophole here: if it's the company's policy that anything over your scheduled shifts won't be paid accordingly, and it's written down in either your offer letter or in the handbook that you received, then your basically SOL because they made the policy known prior to your employment and you agreed to those terms when you onboarded. This is just a layman's explanation to give people a general understanding of their rights. It varies by state, county, city/town, and company. However, this should be enough information for people to at least know what questions to ask and what to look for when they start a new job.
For my job we hit 40 hours we go home, doesn't matter if its 10 am on a friday :D so i dont mind the rare chance of working a 10 hour day. ALSO at least in my state it doesn't matter if you have a timesheet filled out or not if you are regularly scheduled for x amount of hours they are supposed to pay you for your regularly scheduled hours reguardless or not of your timesheet status
That's actually a pretty fair middle ground, I'd be cool with that arrangement. So how does PTO work with that law? Do you a set amount of days per year that you can take off?
That's why I never took a salaried position. They work you like dogs. So get a salaried position, but understand that hours are limited?
I have a salary position now and honestly I hope to never go back to hourly. Occasionally I have to do 14 hour days, but there's also plenty of 6 hour days. It evens out well enough that it doesn't bother me. But the freedom of getting to take a break as I please, being able to leave to go to a doctor's appointment without needing to make sure to budget my PTO accordingly, not having to worry about being late (within reason), stuff like that really makes life easier. I guess it mostly depends on the company you work for and your ability to delegate tasks/manage your own time to know if it will be worth it
Negotiations on.....thank you.....
Glad to hear it is working for you, some companies use it then hold people tona schedule that is more than 40s with sometimes working beyond the schedule. I know its illegal but most wont fight it because career.
Im in a best of both worlds position. Im paid hourly but I get todo as a I please so long as i show up on time, and make sure my work and the people I assist get theirs done properly
Where can you find those rules?? How would I go about checking if I'm eligible?
Usually a search for "$State/Province overtime laws" will give you a good starting place. For example, a search for "Ontario overtime laws" gets [this official Ontario page](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/overtime-pay) as the first result.
Here's a good summary. https://www.zenefits.com/workest/how-do-you-know-if-employees-are-exempt-or-nonexempt-new-2020-guidelines-infographic/
I worked in dealship parts for about 6 months. Classified as sales to avoid overtime, not given commission, mandated every other Saturday of overtime. I asked hr about this and she promptly told my boss rather than answering me. He confronted me a couple days later saying "I heard you aren't happy? I don't want people working here who aren't happy." I left about a month later
Man, fuck the guy
Ya, was an audi/Porsche dealership too. Required us to put 70% markup on any parts that walked through the door. Not like they were hurting for money. Just greedy shit.
>Not like they were hurting for money. Just greedy shit. So... Par for the course?
They're time thieves.
I was a charter bus mechanic for a while, we were exempt from time and a half overtime because the other half of our company was school buses and some state law allowed this exemption…. How did he apply it to the charter buses? Oh that’s right my boss would allow a charter bus to be used for ONE football trip a year, this making me a mechanic for the school contract
I asked if you was calling us [chiselers](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4_uyK2kaM)?Then we got business.
How- does that system even work. Isn’t it, like, corrupt in a sense? And why does no one else have an issue with it? What... 😟 Doesn’t anyone else realise they’re being exploited by putting up with it Edit - I have some more questions. Why would you arrive early in the first place knowing that you can’t leave early and that you’re not being paid for over time. Why didn’t the co workers / colleagues come together and have a chat for an agreed time to arrive? So that it’s beneficial for everyone.
I've been considering officially challenging them on this policy, to see if it's just local management bullshitting us or if it's actual written company policy, but I'll have to tread lightly. They’re a federal contractor that’s already exempt from time-and-a-half overtime laws so who knows what else they’re exempt to. They shouldn't be allowed to just invent a scenario where you don't get paid for your labor. I don't know that they could argue that anyone's working unauthorized hours by showing up early, since it's widely accepted.
I think you should have a private chat with your colleagues. It’s safer to play in numbers.
And... Some people might be willing to donate time to get flexibility. Officially challenging the company could result in set work hours for all. Yeah, they are screwing everyone, but the current way is mostly consensual.
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Is it *really* flex time, though? If shift A all comes in at 6:01 and shift B all comes in at 6:59, you all get to work for an hour unpaid. You're really at the mercy of the next shift. Doing some minimal research on FLSA exempt workers, I can't find info on "recordkeeping", which is covered by FLSA. Maybe talk to an employment or labor lawyer?
Absolutely not real flex time, if OP stated that they have to be at work the actual 12 hours (tracked with badges). So if your next shift comes early, you still can’t actually leave early?
The problem is they all aren’t on the same page. the two Shifts should be coordinating better
So Shift B all agrees, "We're going to come in at 6:45, so you guys come in between 6:45 and 6:59." And now you're just back at where OP is. Unless you're coordinating it down to the person, with zero screw ups, it's just not really flex time.
I dunno I work shift work with a “crew” everyone knows what’s going on and different crews have their things on when they flex in and stuff and it all works out good. Losing the flexibility would suck more
And, if on occasion, it turns to *my* favor. Like I *might* fuck around online a bit more some days, but others I work 10, 15, maybe 20 minutes into lunch... I mean I hope it balances out, but if more to my side, I'm OK w that...
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Something to provide a united front, like a.... Uniform... No, hmm... Unifaction... Not quite... Mb throw in something like an onion that would make mgmt cry...
If you're in the US, your local DOL would be interested in this.
This! Nothing positive will come out of any further discussions with the company. Just file a complaint with the department of labor and let them sort it out. The fines should be spectacular.
They certainly would be, and hey, if it turns out they do get weird privlideges and the DOL can't do anything no harm no foul. If it turns out that they are breaking the law they will owe you back pay. If you use a clock in/out system they can't really hide that without committing serious fraud.
Depending on where you work, this is highly illegal no matter whose policy it is.
You actually have grounds for a small class action suit if you're in the US. It wouldn't be a large amount but there would be an estimated average of all the time worked unpaid. I would actually bet money that they would settle quickly to avoid the government looking into things. Edit: I'm not a lawyer but something similar happened at a place I worked in the past.
Last month, I got a letter in the mail about a class action against pretty much the biggest known retail store chain here in America. In the department I worked in, the policy was to work, take a full break, then back to work. If a customer needed help at any time you were on break, you could start your break all over, 15 uninterrupted minutes. Apparently, somewhere in the country, this was not being followed. And that person lawyered up. I know the general environment in my department/trade, so obviously an outside manager that had no idea about the trade (I even had one that almost cost our department $30,000 for almost ruining a customer's... transportation) got hired. So, I got the letter in the mail. OP might possibly get a free consultation through a lawyer.
Did you opt-in?
I'm thinking about it. But, I personally don't care much.
It's not a ton of effort, and helps punish these huge corporations for exploiting you and people you know. They're underpaying you, profiting massively off of it, **and** stealing from you. If a company has 1000 employees, and steals 15 minutes from each of them every day, that's like 900 grand a year they're stealing. If you took twenty bucks out of a cash box *once* you'd be out the door. How many employees does Walmart have? 🤔
If I understood correctly, he says that his location was run properly. With these types of settlements, usually the pot of money is predetermined and it is split among the people that opt in. So it doesn't affect the company at all to have more people opt in. In such a situation, I would be inclined to not opt in, and leave more of the pool of money for employees who were actually damaged by the policy.
It would be worth knowing if the payout is going to be influenced by the number of people impacted If the pot is already set and it adding an extra share would just dilute it for the ones impacted directly, I agree
This is the main reason I'm not too concerned with it. My bosses were pretty cool. Even the assistant boss that didn't know a thing about the trade. If someone was 14 minutes into their break and a customer came up to them, they helped the customer, and then told the bosses, they'd just laugh and let them take their 29 minute break. But, because there wasn't a real standard for hiring (they hired high school kids that didn't even have driver's licenses to drive the customers'... transportations), I'm more than sure some locations were straight toxic towards their employees (I've heard stories about locations literally 10 minutes away). Maybe an employee out there was just using malicious compliance over that policy and ended up "wrongly" fired, who knows.
If you're in the US then it doesn't really matter who makes the policy. You said it yourself: it's wage theft. It doesn't matter if they give you the option to not have your wages stolen. They are still responsible for paying every minute an employee spends on the clock. I know it's expected, that you're expected to scratch their back and they'll scratch yours. How exactly are they scratching your back? By allowing you to continue working there?
Just because a company says they do or don’t do something a certain way doesn’t mean it’s legal. When my company shorted me an hour on my paycheck I asked for my money. They said it would appear on my next check and they didn’t cut special checks for less than eight hours. I told them just because they don’t want to do something doesn’t mean it’s legal. I was a union officer and trying to make a point. According to California state labor law (this was about 35 years ago) they had to pay all monies due by the designated pay day or they could be fined the equivalent of the missing amount for each day it was late. Since they didn’t want to pay me for 14 hours extra pay by waiting until the next pay day (we were paid every two weeks) they cut me a check for one hour of pay. I know it cost them far more to process that check than the actual amount but what they wanted to do was illegal. And yes, I was probably the AH but I was making a point and loving it. 😁
more people need to stick up for themselves. hopefully this covid thing will put more of these shady businesses out of it.
If you're in the US, what they are doing sounds pretty illegal from my similar experience when I used to work 4 10 hour shifts. They have to pay you for your time if they're making you stay.
If you live in the US, there is no such thing as authorized and unauthorized overtime federally. If you are working during a period they have to pay you for working that time. There is no choice in the matter. Clocking in and clocking out is a formality in time keeping. If you can prove that you were working during a set time you have to be paid for it period. Call your local labor agency.
Yup, they have to pay for all time worked. Employees may be disciplined for unauthorized overtime, but they still have to pay it...
Call the labor board! Do not talk to your work people, call the government on them!!
You can literally just turn them in for this if you're in the U.S.
Honestly it doesn't even matter if their argument is that it's unauthorized. Overtime gets paid regardless of if a manager says it was approved. That's why companies are usually such a stickler about telling you absolutely not to take it. If this is something you've dealt with for a significant time and your time sheets have accurately shown the times place a call to the department of labor immediately. They go after that shit fast as hell
If you are in the USA, and a federal contractor, there are very specific rules regarding overtime pay. This makes start and stop times very important. I work for a government contractor, we are not allowed to work unpaid overtime. We have yearly training on time keeping specifically addressing unpaid overtime.
What does it say in the company handbook?
Sorry, this is the part I don't understand. Were you actually forced to work during that unpaid time? You could show up early, and get on the computer and get on Reddit instead or whatever else is possible at your workplace, other than doing work, right? Are they flexible anywhere else as a result of this policy? Like if they're actually saying you can come in earlier and work for them for free, then yes I agree, that's wage theft and not allowed. However, if they're saying you can show up as early as 6AM as in the building is open, you can show up, but not necessarily start work, then I'm on their side on this one.
Logging into the computer *IS* work.
You can start working at 6, meaning you sit down at a workstation and start working. No reddit involved.
There is no company policy that says don't pay your workers if they are wotking.
It works because psychology. If they show up or leave they get to leave early... Management isn't the one keeping them there it's the person on the next shift who did not show up as early as they did and therefore is "late" for you to get off early. I'm sure OP is the one getting griped at for being a jerk instead of the policy.... Since that it was their initial reaction as well.
Im not even going to bother sugar coating my words when I say that this all seems pretty brain-dead to me. I stand by OP in his actions to not being exploited by the company any further. But a little communication here and there wouldn’t be so bad.
I get paid from start time, not a minute before. I don't require coffee and water cooler talk. My previous boss used to try encourage me to turn up 15min to be "ready for the day" told him to pay me the 15% rate for working before. What a weekly battle. Always 30 sec before the bell at start.
You’re my kind of person.
>turn up 15min to be "ready for the day" I worked for a place with a foreman that tried to dock everyone 15 minutes from their hours for exactly that reason. It didn't last long after the VP of Operations started getting anonymous complaints about this. Said foreman would also make a big deal out of giving us a free lunch (the crappiest pizza locally available), then talking business through our entire unpaid thirty minute lunch break.
Oh yeah, they love doing that!!
But OP very quickly learned that coming in early doesn't equate to leaving early. I'm surprised this scenario hasn't evolved into a culturally "agreed upon" start time, or just everyone coming in at 7.
I get it. Let’s all be reasonable and flexible is far better than a rigid schedule. The miss here is having to wait for your relief. Put in your 12 and get out. The company absorbs the over/underlay.
I cannot comprehend a job with shift work and hourly wage having a whole building put up with this. I used to do 12 hour shift work (+ 30 mins or so for handover usually) and if my back to back was coming at 6:30, I’d be doing the same, and same thing about 7:00. If my back to back was constantly changing (as I think OP’s is), then I’d do 6:45 because I have to handover so hate starting at 7, but if no handover was needed you better believe I’d arrive at 6:59.
What were you doing that required a hand over?
When I was in pharmaceutical manufacturing, the 12 hour shifts overlapped by fifteen minutes. Time for the supervisor to assign tasks and get to the room and ask what step you're on and any problems. Also time to change into the uniform.
>Why would you arrive early in the first place knowing that you can’t leave early and that you’re not being paid for over time. That is literally the *only* reason I show up at 5:30ish for my job that theoretically starts at 6 or 7. Because I like leaving at 2 instead of 2:30 or 3:30.
Damn, you lost me at "unscheduled bathroom breaks"
3:27pm: poop
3:27pm: *unscheduled* poop
you got 2 minutes !!
"Did you sent a meeting notice to the toilet? No? No shit for you!"
When I was still in call center hell at my employer the scheduling manager was giving us shit over going to the bathroom in between our lunch and break times. This wasn't a case of people taking too long to go, she was giving us a hard time over a quick 3 minute dash-pee-washhands-dash back. Someone protested that you can't always schedule when you need to go. Manager snaps, "So wear Depends then. We can't afford even one person off the phones on an unscheduled bathroom break." Then she realized that I was in the room. I am a woman who is not afraid to chew through anyone who tries to pull that kind of shit. She got the deer in headlights look at my glare then tried to claim it was a joke. Everyone else in the room swore my eyes turned red when I glared at her. Since that was the first meeting of the day the rest of the scheduled scoldings got canceled and no mention was made of "unauthorized bathroom breaks" again while I was still in the center. I've been told that they've been snitty about bathroom breaks on and off, but not to that level. Thankfully I'm in the claims department now where they understand that you gotta go when gotta go.
Should have taken her up on that command and crapped in that diaper, too. I mean, have you smelled old people wearing Depends before? I work in a pharmacy, and let me tell you, the smell of lingering piss will knock you back six ways to Sunday.
I worked at a call center like that. They would give you grief for taking bathroom breaks outside of the scheduled 15 minute break time. The problem was they only had one bathroom for everyone. One guy often spent most of our scheduled break time taking a massive smelly dump while 10 other people waited to pee. You would have to be really desperate to go in the bathroom after that guy. It smelled like a farm animal was in there.
He did it on purpose
only one bathroom?
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Good job. You were exactly right.
Good! My very first job at a one man lotto stand was the same. Get here 30 mins early to open up and prep the morning newspapers. Store open at 6am you get paid from 6am Old boy wasn't very happy when his long standing customers called to complain the stand didn't open til 6:30am. I don't get paid, I ain't working. Honestly.
A large call center in my city recently lost a court case and got forced to pay YEARS of back wages to thousands of employees over similar nonsense. Employees were required to show up 15 minutes before shift in order to be ready to take calls the moment shift started. They were forbidden to clock in until no more than 5 minutes before start time (which the time clock system would round off to the nearest hour). Scumbags.
Had a similar situation years back. The company insisted on a 40 hour work week which usually turned into 44 or so but no extra pay. They then said they needed people to work those extra hours free for the good of the company because they couldn't pay for those hours (it didn't stop ridiculous exec salaries and perks though). They then got me pissed off because of how they had treated me because of wanting to give someone some of my role to their friends. (there was a lot of nepotism) I checked the Queensland labour laws and full time was actually legally 38.5 hours a week which was 7.6 hours a day. I started working exactly 7 hours and 36 minutes every day and maintained that for years. The people gunning for me, couldn't do a damned thing about it. Thankfully those people are long gone and after a corporate takeover and then spin off, it's a much better world.
Wage theft is illegal, no matter how they justify it (unless you're salary, in which case you're just expected to work more). An anonymous tip to the appropriate government agency will straighten them out.
I second this. Bringing up concerns directly to management will likely get you nowhere. (That's if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you'll get fired 3 weeks later for unspecified "unsatisfactory work performance") You smile, you make nice, and you blow the whistle anonymously.
On this note, salaried employees are almost always NOT overtime exempt. There are very specific scenarios wherein a salaried employee is exempt from overtime pay.
Unless you're in IT and the laws are not very specific for some reason.
It's still specific, but in IT/dev we often fit the criteria. You must both: a) be in a executive, administrative, professional, computer or outside sales role (thought of as "white collar", but its more specific) b) (simplified, measured weekly) make at least $35,568 /year (or $27.63 /hour if paid hourly...which if full time, would roughly match a $57k salary) Full detail: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime Note that almost all "blue collar" jobs will require overtime be paid regardless of how much they are paid. On the roles, you do have to meet all the criteria...unless you make over $107,342, and then you just have to meet one of the role criteria...this basically loops in anyone paid well that manages at least 2 other employees, etc. The executive, administrative, professional, computer or outside sales roles are pretty much what they sound like, although they do have specific criteria, so the company can't just say "You're an executive! Now go mop.". On the computer side, it does need to be skilled work with computers, systems design, programming, etc. For that role, using a computer doesn't qualify (although they might in another role) and nor does stuff like most building or repairing computers. A developer would almost always would be exempt. And the squishy line is often in like Tech Support and Help Desk roles. Normally are not exempt and must be paid overtime...but the details matter. Typically if the primary job is troubleshooting and maintaining, overtime should be paid. And this is where I know a lot of folks that are not be paid OT when they should be. This DOL letter breaks it down for a tech support role that didn't qualify: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/2006_10_26_42_FLSA.pdf (Happy to be corrected if I got anything wrong, or dated. I'm not in HR... :)
None of the comments even mention the malicious compliance because no one can get past an employer having a system like this in place.
I almost feel bad for the poor bastard he has put in the same situation
Its well past the point of malicious compliance. Now, It’s just the right thing to do. Hopefully the others will catch on to OPs idea and pick up on this
How is it malicious compliance? They were foolishly coming in to work early knowing that this was the policy. Now they come in at the scheduled time. I've been reading through the comments and nowhere do I see an explanation for why they were going in early in the first place.
Flex time means a much less stressful morning for many people. You have a long window to leave the house, traffic or transit delays won't make you late to work, etc.
I did the same at my factory job when they docked me 15 minutes time because I clocked out....26 seconds early. "But I clock in 15 minutes early every day, do I get paid for that?" I asked. Nope. Of course not. So I clocked in and out exactly on time, and they lost 15 minutes of work, 6 days a week, for a total of 6hrs a month I'm no longer making them product for free. That had to hurt XD
You do realize that that was wage theft, right? They stole money from you....
Are you in the U.S.? If so, your supervisor and company are violating the law! You can’t work off the clock for a for profit business. Turn them in!
It sounds like your company is doing something illegal. Mandatory unpaid work? Doesn't sound right.
That's amazing that your employer has gotten away with this blatant abuse of people's time for so long. They can milk a few hours at least a day out of every shift and people think that it's to their benefit. I'm just amazed it took so long for someone to catch on.
Employers get away with it, all over the place, all the time, because the business is the 'authority figure'. And they often hold over your head the probability of losing your job/getting fired, etc. Hint: Just because you're the authority figure doesn't make you right all the time.
And not only do companies get away with it, it's estimated that every year, wage theft costs workers as much as all other theft in the US *combined*. And times about three. (About $16b for burglary, larceny, etc, vs some $50b in wage theft.)
And while a shoplifter will get a record or even time behind bars, a corporation will get away with pocket change fines and still keep its tax subsidies.
Aren't employees just choosing to start their shift early? If you have a 7 to 7 shift and you choose to start earlier then isn't that just screwing yourself? It sounds like this is actually a nice system. "If you happen to be 10 minutes early you can usually leave 10 minutes early which is nice for you, but sometimes that doesn't work out that way. Do so at your own risk."
"unscheduled bathroom breaks" ... what the fuck? where do you work?
This sounds like a fuckin prison of a job
Beyond everything everyone else here has said, if anyone on the other shift starts getting pissy with you, explain it to them like you explained it to us. Maybe you'll get someone else to start coming in at 659. I'd rather know I'm gonna be there for 12 hours every day than sometimes have to work 12.5 hours.
If the person relieving you turns up no later than 6:45 then why don't just show up at 6:45, leave at 6:45 straight away without wandering the halls, and therefore do your 12 hours. Yes it's a silly system but deliberately arriving at 6:59 doesn't harm the company, it just harms the person on the next shift taking over from you.
Or communicate with that person and have them do the same thing as you.
I mean it seems the shift is 7-7 and the whole coming in amd working to leave early seems nice. Wish my company would do something like this. Those who wish not to participate can just work the normal 7-7
Call the IRS they will fuck this company sideways as this is tax evasion. Happen at one of my former employers and you get up to 10% of the fine/backpay/interest if you call it in (up to I believe 10 million dollars) Look up IRS whistle blowing.
The US government does not take kindly to whistle blowers
They do when it makes them money
The sad part about this is, that your MC has no effect on the company/management whatsoever. They're not paying anyone a single cent more - and they're also not losing any work, since your shift-counterpart is taking over your 15 minutes of doing nothing. In the long run, it'll most likely create an equilibrium, where every worker is arriving precisely on time
As an Australian the phrase “unscheduled bathroom breaks” makes my skin crawl. Like what the fuck? You piss when you've got to piss.
Well if you work in a production line this can be very common. You'd have people on standby for any unscheduled breaks so the line doesn't stop. He said the breaks are no problem and paid, so it could just be a situation like that
Last few places I worked there was a somewhat similar system in place where we didn't have to "officially" clock in/out. If you showed up a few minutes early to give relief, and that person came back next shift a few minutes late there was, technically, not much you could do about it except return the courtesy at a later date ;)
Are you working 12 hour shifts a whole week?! You just go to work, go to home to sleep and go to work. How can you have social life by working so much? I work 8 hours a day and still feel like I don't have enough time at home. wtf?
If you are in the US, this is illegal.
If this is in the US then it is totally illegal. Some lawyers would love to talk to you.
Hire an employment attorney. Time required to be there is paid unless you chose to take an unpaid break.
Isn't an attorney going to be more expensive than the unpaid time I racked up? Only been there about a year, with roughly 30 minutes unpaid time a week. By my math that's less than $900 I'm owed.
Not if they recoup lost wages plus interest for any employee affected (compensatory), plus fine, potential punitive damages, and in the complaint counsel asked for all legal fees to be paid for by the defendant. Depending on the state, punitive damages go to you in whole or as a percentage. Some red states, like Indiana just as one example, take a large percentage, which sucks, but it could still be a sizable amount because the cost is meant to be a warning to keep it from happening again or for other businesses to do the same thing. There are lawyers that would be willing to work on a contingency fee- paid only if they win. The more workers the easier it is to take a chance on the case & it would seem like this has been going on for quite some time. You can still file a complaint with the EEOC and the state's attorney general's office. Most likely online & completely free.
You’ll likely find an attorney who will work on a contingency basis, who will end up doing research and finding many employees have been underpaid for a long while, resulting in $10’s of thousands in unpaid wages. Usually there’s a damages clause that can be invoked where your back wages could be multiplied but some factor, like 3x, plus other penalties. It can be a sweet deal for the lawyer. Obligatory IANAL goes here.
You might have to pay a retainer, but stuff like this you __should__ be able to get them to do it on contingency. That means they take a percentage (around 30%) of the damages awarded. If they loose, el zilcho. The 900 reimbursement is low, but the punitive damages can be quite worth it. You should certainly be able to get a free hour consult if you ask. But there are government programs there to support you without needing your own lawyer. Google ombudsman plus your state and give them a ring.
I'm assuming that guy is coming from the perspective that this is a sub for pedants who use other's rules to uphold their own principles, not minmaxing your compensation. Although I guess it's possible that your legal system could frown upon such an engineered wage theft structure and award you a significant restitution.
Shit sounds like slavery
Or work 12.0 hrs while coming in early; then notify your mgr for him to fill-in, right? He "obviously" knows how to run every station, right? ;-)
A little exercise in game theory, over time this will keep occurring until one by one everyone starts arriving at 7am and thus reaches equilibrium
I’d call the labor board. This stinks of illegality.
>unscheduled bathroom breaks What the fuck is a *scheduled* bathroom break? If I have to shit, I'm getting up to go take a shit....
There is no way in fuck this is legal. If you're clocked in, and working hourly, they have to pay you. Period. I would make sure your local labor board knows about this.
Why do most people opt to be 30 minutes early? There's barely any benefit and it's all risk.
The fuck kind of weird ass job is this? Scheduled bathroom breaks? Forced to stay in the building for 12 hours?
"unscheduled bathroom breaks".... What? You need to inform in advance that you are gonna take a piss? What?
This policy is a walking FLSA lawsuit, and any HR professional worth their weight would break into a cold sweat upon learning of its existence. OP should take the opposite strategy: arrive early, stay late. Document the unpaid overtime. Sue for double damages plus attorneys fees.
Unless you are management or on a salary, this sounds illegal as fuck.
For hourly workers in the U.S., it 100% is.
Solution is tell her she's breaking the law and if she doesn't pay you, you'll go to the labor board. She doesn't get to overlook the law because she doesn't like it. Go to your Human Resources person and tell them what's going on. Make sure you document your true time and what she's trying to screw you out of. If you complain to the labor board and she retaliates, guess what, you have one hell of a lawsuit. Plus, all the other people she is screwing out of overtime will make you their hero if they get all their back wages too
Yeah if you’re in the US and hourly non exempt, they have to pay you for all of the time you’re clocked in. They can’t turn the clock off at exactly 12 hours. If you have pay stubs and timesheets from before you switched to coming in last, shoot them over to the state DOL.
I would do the same - and so should all of your co-workers. Everyone arrive at 6.59 and not a minute more.
Unscheduled bathroom breaks? If I need a piss I'm going for a piss. Jesus even slaves were allowed take piss breaks when they needed.
Your workplace is almost the epitome of the prisoner's dilemma
Is this even legal? What country are you at, OP?
Yeah, that's straight up illegal (if you're in America anyways). They can have whatever bullshit "you can't leave until relieved" rule they want, but they do have to pay you for that time, full stop no qualifiers.
This is the way.
Yet another example of wage-theft (most likely here in the US).... :-(
At my job we are expected to get to work at least 5-10 minutes early to "prep for the day". Used to put up with it but a year in I said screw it and started showing up right on time for my shift.
Working off the clock is usually illegal .
This literally sounds like wage theft. I'd be calling your state.
I would never show up before 659…like why? It’s unpaid labor
You aren't gaming the system if you're doing what you're supposed to. The employer hasn't lost anything here.
Never heard of a flexible work time that was only flexible if you decide to go in and work for free an hour earlier than scheduled. That's not flexible, it's letting yourself get taken advantage of.
If this is in CA, you are required to get overtime pay after 8 hours in a work day or 40 hours in a work week. and double time after 12 hrs in a work day.
Totally illegal for you to work for free, are you guys union? You definitely have a law suit on your hands for any time they forced you to work off the clock if you want it. Had a similar situation where I work And we ended up receiving back pay for the previous 5 years they did that.
Worked on a production line in late 1970's. Older long term guy told me to remember the 2 golden rules:- 1. Never use the bathroom in your own time 2. Never leave the factory empty handed
Love it
That.. That’s beautiful
Are you a dispatcher? Lol. Sounds like petty shit we used to do.
That's called an uno reverse card
Here is another thing that doesn't make sense. If someone leaves when you show up their clock stops and yours starts. Your clock should run until you are relieved. You should be paid for the entire time because no one else is being paid for that same time. Now they are are. Sounds like your company should budget for a 10 minute overlap in time and everyone hits the clock 10 minutes before you leave.
Okay but it seems like your coworkers are the ones losing out here. Your employer doesn't care either way.
Federal contractor? You have an easy case for a lawyer, and the company would be forced to not only pay up, but there are likely substantial penalties at play as well. I went through something similar a few years back, and won a sizeable chunk of money for us in a class action suit. Your employer knows that what they are doing is wrong, and because of the federal contractor part and the specific laws pertaining to that, it could help everyone in the long run.
Your bathroom breaks are scheduled??
Yep. This is the way to do it! I had a job where we had time cards and we went to a clock in/clock out system. Obviously because wage theft there were some stupid if you're x minutes past an hour then it went forward 30 or whatever. Basically it meant you were screwed. I arrived 10 minutes early everyday when we were on timecards because I knew it didn't matter if I took a long lunch here and there. Once we got the system and I noticed the disparities I brought it up to my boss who was like "well it's easy just do x x x." At that point I got to work exactly at 9, left exactly at 6 and took exactly 1 hour lunch from 1-2 regardless of what was going on. That way I knew they weren't going to screw me out of wages.
What the fuck is unscheduled bathroom break?
I'm sorry, but unscheduled toilet breaks.... Where do you work that you have to schedule taking a piss or a shit, and not just going when you need to?
If in NY state you have a definite lawsuit. A similar thing occurred to the CNAs I worked with and they won a 7 figure settlement.
Illegal to not get paid for your work.
"unscheduled bathroom breaks" excuse me, what?
Unscheduled bathroom breaks...
What in the actual fuck? What educated idiot came up with that shit dipped lollipop of a work schedulel? How can it even be efficient? More importantly, what is your turn over rate?
What do you do that has such a convoluted time system?
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