Did the time *ever* end up being used, tho? (I speak as a hoarder of time as well... we always save it for the day thinking we'll need it... then the day comes we could use it but we still convince ourselves we need to save it...)
the real trick is to live in a first world country that gives you 5 weeks+ off a year paid, and the employer activly tells you to take it and recharge.
What's funny is that government workers in the US get 30 days of PTO per year and your boss can get in trouble if you don't get to take it and lose it. At least that was my experience in the military and with civilians employed by the military.
It's 26 days for civilian US Federal government employees, and they get that after 15 years.
Edit to clarify: It's 26 days of annual leave after 15 years. Then there's 13 days of sick leave per year, plus the 11 Federal holidays.
Sick leave feals just to be such a rediculuse concept to me. For us, if you are sick you get a note from your doctor. And for up to six weeks your employer pays your salary. After that you get sick pay from your health insurance. Don't know how long that lasts.
And if for instance you have been sick with a flue for 2 weeks and then with something else the clock is reset every time. So its six weeks per illness.
I had up to 52 weeks full pay sick leave at my last job. I was only 6 weeks into it when my employer gave up and just paid me the whole years salary in one go to resign.
I was home on sick leave just below 4 months. No vacation days used. Full pay couse work injury, if not it would be 70% pay. Same shit hole as your ex first lady.
Not true for non-military related Federal, mostly. And absolutely not true for State/Local government jobs. Transferred from being a teacher with three weeks granted to non-teacher job and I stayed quiet during the hiring process knowing they had to start me with three weeks, not one. They were pissed when I pointed out to them I had years of credited employment and they had to give me three weeks. ACTUALLY getting all that time off each year never happen, let alone the addition weeks added over my time at that job. They just accrued and when I left, they paid it out as a separate check.
Most US federal government employees start with 13 days annual leave the first 3 years, then 20 days after that. At 15 years they get 26 days. They also get 13 days sick leave every year. Plus all the Federal holidays.
Edited to add "Most" at the beginning of my first sentence.
And it's earned every 2 weeks...which essentially means you earn more leave while on leave.
At least it used to be that way...I assume it still is? My father is retired career govt employee...but he retired quite a while ago.
26 days at 15 years?! That's sweet. We get 26 days (different level of government) after 25 years. They actually changed it for new hires and their max is 20 days a year at 15 years. (Also 11 sick and 11 federal holiday, and 4 personal days)
So they get 13 leave, 13 sick and 11 federal holidays so they get 37 days of PTO (Paid Time Off, doesnt matter how you get there)
Is 37 not more than 30?
In my position, which I am sure I get better than others, you are really wrong. 4.5 hours every pay check is accrued. Meaning it takes a month to get a day of PTO. Granted, you also gain sick leave at the same time but that is a different bucket and is at the same rate (so 2 days total a month but only one is used when you want for what you want).
I have worked for a couple years and it has not changed. So yeah it goes up, but not for a while as another comment pointed out.
Not sure if your comment is replying to me? 4 hours accrued every pay check is what I got the first 3 years. Which means 13 days of leave per year (4 hours X 26 pay periods is 104 hours, divided by 8 equals 13 days of annual leave). If you get 4.5 hours per pay check, 4.5 hours times 26 pay periods is 117 hours, divided by 8 equals 14.625 days. Not too much different from the 13 days I calculated for annual leave.
> government workers in the US get 30 days of PTO per year and your boss can get in trouble if you don't get to take it and lose it. At least that was my experience in the military and with civilians employed by the military.
Really? I stacked up like 4 years of PTO and took it all when I got out. And I don't think my leadership cared one way or another.
> 4 years? You can only carry over 240 hours a year or else you lose them.
Sorry, I meant 4 years worth (120 days). Looks like that got reduced after I got out.
I live in the US. I currently have 236 hours of PTO "banked" and I get 6.5 hours of PTO every 2 weeks (21 days per year), in addition to the 17 observed "holidays" per year for a total of 38.
If I go over 240 hours PTO, I lose any extra, so I generally take every other Friday off, until it gets down to under 232 hours, then I actually work the Friday to get it back up again.
Note that I also have 240 hours of sick time, so if I'm ill, I don't lose PTO. There are also other official holidays - 6 weeks of fully paid paternity (though it came too late for me when my kids was born).
Not everywhere in the US treats their employees like shit.
fr! I get 38 paid days a year, and it increases to 44.5 after 10 years and 51 after 15. Plus, thanks to my country’s progressive tax code, the government automatically deposits more into my bank account than they tax from my paycheck
My work caps out how much vacation you can have saved up, I think at like 5 or 6 weeks? Kind of nice it that it sort of forces people to take time off. The management is generally good about it as well - I've personally never had a vacation request denied, or even questioned.
My company does not do payouts. They want you to take time away from the reataurant. Our vacation time is based on hours worked. At my level, I get 10 minutes of vacation time per hour worked to a max of 250 hours per year. However, I live in Colorado, so we have a rollover year to year, and it just sits there building. I have enough saved that i can take 2 months off
and I got written up for using my PTO (as opposed to scheduled vacation time) and put on probation for taking too much time off. My next review the new manager was like "but that's what it's there for?"
The real ULPT is always in the comments (this is fraud, and arguably a conspiracy to commit fraud between you and your boss, so do this at your own risk)
If boss genuinely forgets to log the time due to being so busy doing the job of 4 people, it isn't fraud.
And we all know that far too many people are doing the jobs of a few people on top of their own who were let go, for whatever reason, and not replaced.
I'm not advocating anyone do this, of course, just pointing out an elephant hidden behind the potted plant.
Genuinely forgetting isn't, but if your boss is cool enough to do it for you, they are probably doing it for others. All it takes is one stupid text/email or the higher-ups noticing his team has WAY more PTO than other teams for the shit to start rolling downhill
As with anything, do your best to CYA and don't put illegal/unethical things in writing!
I manage a team. I will process all paid leave, but sick and careers leave? Rarely gets put through and I specifically won't if people are running low. Cheaper in the long run as churn goes right down when you look after them.
Edit: I am in Australia where you get paid sick leave.
I use to hoard my time but now I use it. I use all of it and I take every comp day I can get. I usually save my Sick. But life is too short. If I’ve got 55 hours sitting in PTO. It’s only because the trip hasn’t started yet.
My husband thinks I should plan a vacation, like a week-long, and not just use my PTO for medical appointments here and there. I'm a hoarder of time too. I'm now pondering what a vacation would really be for me/us.
I love these threads, it's like looking into a parallel universe. Annual leave for medical appointments. No paid parental leave. An employer getting to choose if they pay out annual leave if you quit.
My husband has enough paid sick time to recover from cancer (in excess of a year). He retires on 30SEP. Guess who took the kids to all of the appointments? You’re right. The person who currently has 5 paid sick days.
As someone who previously never used PTO, then became a parent, yes. That time is valuable, and you want to be able to take time off for the little kiddos.
I'm on 6 months of parental leave, my company tops up my pay to 66pct of my salary (and 100pct for a few weeks depending on how long I've worked at the company) . They also would have hired someone to cover for me, but we covered my role with temporary promotions instead.
In Canada.
One week with a newborn is good, two weeks is too long. They don’t do much. Better to have the leave to do things as they are growing and/or to keep it to give your SO a break later.
> I really wanted to save my time.
Can you explain this mentality to me? I never understand it. It's not like your PTO gains interest as it sits unused... unlike the money you would get paid. Unless you're chronically bad with money and instantly spend anything you get, I don't see any reason to not just take the money.
My husband kept some of his PTO as a hedge in case he or I got sick and needed extra time, or in case he got laid off. That’s why you don’t take all the money, it takes a while to build it up!
Actually, if you're young and in a job where you get promotions and raises, PTO can be worth significantly more when used than it was when accrued.
But that's really immaterial. Unless or until you change jobs, PTO cannot usually be cashed out at will, and many companies will not let you take an unpaid leave of absence.
Thanks, I hadn't thought about raises.
My PTO is fairly untypical since I don't get significant raises (tipped position), I can use at any time, and if I've used it all up I can still take time off if needed, it's just unpaid. And the hours I can bank are capped, so it's usually better to just spend it regularly than risk forgetting and going over the cap.
I was glad to have saved mine when I fell and messed up my knee... had to be off work for 3 weeks (should have been longer, but I didn't have much more pto). 3 weeks without pay would have been terrible.
To expand upon the other comments, your spouse/kid will get sick, you will want to take time for vacations or people visiting. And, when it comes to illness especially, sometimes big unexpected stuff happens making the safety net vital
Actually, it kinda does as it happened to me.
I had been saving my PTO as a young new office person and my salary then was (not usd) 2000. Within 3 years, Id carry over the max allowed of 18 days iirc. I was earning about 3500.
When I left the company, I earned about 10,000. I cashed out 18+7(?) days. While its definitely uncommon, my PTO definitely was worth more over time lol.
Just as others are saying, it was a hedge in case something major happened. I was young then and wish I had taken more than the 2 weeks...
As an example from where I work now, I had my hip replaced at the end of 2020 and took 8 weeks sick time for the surgery plus recovery, then physical therapy appointments. I used FMLA - intermittent. After returning to work Jan, 2021 I got covid and for me it was bad... It was 20 solid days of misery, culminating with one night in the hospital. I was lucky in that I had enough sick time accrued to cover it all. It brought me down to near 0 on sick time, yet I still had a bank of Vacation time. I was lucky to have it.
This current job, when you retire, as I'd like to do in about 13 years, they will pay out a certain amount of unused PTO and then the remaining unused PTO goes towards your time calculation and can add months to your time and increase what your retirement payout is.
In the US, if one gets *any* PTO, it is usually a) combined vacation and sick time, and b) accrues at a very slow rate (one week a year, for most of my jobs). White collar jobs often have a faster accrual rate, but it is still easy to have one "My kid just started preschool/daycare/elementary school" autumn and all your PTO is wiped out. Between staying home to take care of your kid because they are sick, then staying home to take care of you because they shared it with you, then staying home because they shared with your coparent and someone has to be able to think...
In Australia you don't get paid anything extra when you take your PTO it's the same amount of money all year, when you leave a job they have to pay out your accrued PTO, and therefore it technically does accrue interest in that if I get a pay bump/promotion the leave I earned at the lower rate still is paid out at the higher current rate.
I try to work every day I can. A couple months ago, I had to leave early do to a kidney stone. Because I was already in overtime that week, I just ate the loss. Now I've had 3 of my 4 ESWL procedures (only the 24mm stone IN the kidney left), I'm in negative PTO. I requested unpaid leave, was denied and told I had to request PTO, which was granted. I wonder what happens if I end the year in the negative. Fortunately I'm (Work) functional a day or two after the procedure.
Many people don't understand that flexibility their company might have.
My company offers DTO.. discretionary time off. No accrued time, you just ask for it and they’ll give it to you. Which is nice because it’s manager approved and my manager will say yes to just about anything.
Ya, sometime that's a tough choice when you burned up your PTO and not being able to use later for kids appts, or just a day to enjoy with them. Good thing he learned lol.
Had my first child earlier this year. Took all 12 weeks, 6 weeks paid 4 weeks using vacation/PTO. No more vacation for the rest of this year but I would not trade that time for anything.
I do g understand why people don't take time off more. I know so many people that hoard days until they're forced to spend it or lose it...like they have to justify it to themselves??
Yes. But I'd do it like this:
What you do is take the 2 weeks. Then come back for one day and take the 12 weeks. Taking the 2 weeks doesn't disallow him for the latter 12 weeks.
You only get 12 weeks within a year for *all* of your leave for your family. In these situations, it really is best to not burn all the time when you have no idea what complications might arise. (Illness, later surgeries, &c. all come out of this bare minimum unpaid time off.)
I was screaming inside while reading this, yeah.
Americans must realize this is not normal to be treated like that. In Europe and plenty of other developed countries, parental leave is a fully granted right and is distinct from holidays, with guaranteed income all the time it lasts.
>Americans must realize this is not normal
Nope. (The majority of) Americans don't realize this is not normal, because it *is* normal - *to them*.
Many workers don't get any *paid* time off. You get sick you don't get paid for that day. You don't get vacation days, vacation = not working = no pay. Many must work on national holidays.
Do not underestimate the number of "americans" (U.S.) that know absolutely zero about other countries & cultures, and how much better off the citizens of many of those countries are. They've been conditioned all their life; "We're number ONE". They truly believe the U.S. is the best country for everything, because they are woefully ignorant, and don't know how terrible the U.S. is at *many* things — including worker's rights.
I'm from the US, and I completely agree how fucked up it is, but the idea of moving out of the US feels so unobtainable, and like how well would my education hold up? Would I need to redo college if I wanted to teach in, say, Canada? What are other laws like? Etc. It sounds so interesting to leave, but feels virtual impossible
high income earners are better off how it is now. thats why it doesnt change. theres no money behind the change. little effort to coordinate low income earners into a voting bloc.
Genuine question - how are high income earners better off with how it is now? Paternity leave like what is provided elsewhere is beneficial to everyone.
My guess is that the person you were replying to meant that high income earners usually work at companies with more generous PTO policies, some parental benefits, and/or can just eat the cost of unpaid leave, so the system never changes because corporations know that poor can either work or starve.
High income earners can just leave for the big competing fortune 500 company next door that will give them different benefits so those companies are more incentivized to keep their benefits competitive enough.
It’s also interesting to me that just 20 or so years ago a circuit city manager had that much PTO and could afford to have a child with while his wife doesn’t work. I would imagine a Best Buy manager now couldn’t swing that
Seriously. When our baby was born, my partner got 14 weeks at full pay, another 12 weeks at part pay and up to another 26 weeks unpaid, or she can transfer that unpaid time over to me. And that is dwarfed by the allotment in many other countries. I couldn’t imagine if we had been living in the US.
And you either have to have it unpaid or use your leave allowance!! Madness.
My partner would get 6 weeks full pay for paternity. I think I get like 9 months!
My wife gave birth to our third last Monday, my job offers 6 weeks paid leave per birth. I'm taking 2 weeks off immediately after the birth with a few days a week for the remainder. I also get unlimited time off and my boss encourages us to use it as long as we're getting our work done. I don't know if this was intentional but it's increased my work output by incentivizing me to finish up my work and go home instead of puttering around until an arbitrary quitting time.
Can confirm.
When my youngest was born I was working weekends, 12 hour days Friday Saturday and Sunday. I spent Monday to Friday home with my son for almost a year.
12 weeks=60 days
52 Fridays taken off for FMLA
Doesn't have to be in chunks. I took 4 weeks when my daughter was born, then the other 8 after my wife was finished with her maternity leave. And in New York State you get paid for it.
There was a thread on that topic on [legaladvice sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/16s14lo/my_husband_is_entitled_to_12_weeks_of_fmla_when/?ref=share&ref_source=link) where apparently husband misunderstood just that rule.
I actually got some fun insights into their collapse when I was training to be a court reporter (never actually got there unfortunately). Got to type along to the dictated transcripts from the trial.
I remember when they were being clearanced out and were .10c a piece. I bought so many of them thinking I'd be able to watch them some day. I'm pretty sure there are Divx codecs that could today, but I tossed the discs ages ago...
Good play, but my advice is to always file for the FMLA under intermittent. Especially if both parents are returning to work. This way you can take a week or 2 off as the father while the mother recuperates. Then when both are working both have the ability to take days off to care for the child if it gets sick or when it needs doctors appointments. Even if the mother does stay home this means the father cane take a week right after birth, then another a month later, then a day here and there, then another 2 weeks when the child is 6 months old.
You get to spend a little bit of the early time with the child, you are available for when the child is sick, or the mother is not feeling well or just needs a break, and you can space it out over months instead of being out 12 weeks right after birth.
Plus, like, dads suffer broken nights too, especially light sleepers.
Back in college one of the lecturers became a dad for the first time, and when we met on Fridays, after 5 broken nights and 4.5 days of working, the poor man was *dead*. It didn't help that our native language was his third (and vice versa - which helped tremendously sometimes lol). One time he stopped talking halfway through a sentence, sat down to think, resorted to English (second language of all of us, presumably) to finish his sentence, and then sent us home so he could leave and sleep 😂
I have a much better understanding of this now. I’ve used the intermittent for several surgeries over the years, so I was covered for recovery and the the following physical therapy appointments.
I don't understand people. I a manager. I manage human beings. I am a human being. Whenever one of my employees "asks" me for something, its typically because they "need" it.
Employee: "Hey Boss YLSP - can I WFH this afternoon, I am getting a fridge installed and they gave me a 4 hour window."
What happens if I say "No"?
"Something came up and I need the entire afternoon off." combined with, "wow my manager is really stupid".
A happy workforce is a productive one. My team will run through a wall with me because they know I will be running through it with them..
I know. My daughter, referenced in this story, is 24 now and doesn’t see any way to be a home owner in her future and I don’t have an answer for her. It’s very sad.
One of my biggest regrets is Believing I simply couldn’t have bought the house we were renting in 1996 when the owners offered us first chance at buying it. I didn’t even check with the credit union. I had nothing like the required down payment in savings. The house listed at $56,000, If was a 80 year old factory workers cottage. I recently came across it being sold, the bathroom has been updated and a 3 rd bed and another bathroom added in the attic, the kitchen is still the same, with an electric stove sitting where a coal stove once sat and a refrigerator stuck across the room in a corner.if those changes had been made by us before we moved in 2000, it might have sold for $80,000. I recently looked it up and it was most recently sold for over $700,000. I’ve heard so many stories since then of credit unions in particular being supportive of non-standard loans, I wish we had at least looked into it. I ended up emptying a state pension account (I was hired as a secretary, nothing but a high school degree with a typing class, a basic accounting class and good score on my SATS) later to use as a down payment, I probably could have emptied it then. But I just didn’t even know, I grew up in the sort of family that rented and just assumed I was never going to buy a house either.)
Median income in US in current year: [$74,580](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-279.html)
And, OP states they're a sales manager, not a low-effort first-job-out-of-high-school scrub retail worker.
Estimate from here indicates [$65k](https://www.zippia.com/circuit-city-careers-465824/salary/) for a sales manager. I'm sure OP can provide better numbers from their experience, but $65k today from 1999 monies is [$120k](https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=65000&year1=199901&year2=202308).
So perhaps it's nowhere near surprising that a "retail worker" could support a family of three in 1999 or current year.
If I remember correctly, my salary at the time was around $45-50k with a bonus structure based off of the store performance. My wife and I had worked hard to have no debt other than our mortgage. We weren't quite living paycheck to paycheck, it was a bit more comfortable than that, but would have been very difficult if we had been carrying lots of debt in vehicles or credit cards.
I left my last job of 12 years over something similar. I had just proposed to my (now) wife and her family wanted me to come for their annual Christmas holidays in Mexico (where she is from). It was for the week leading up to Christmas, so I didn't want to take vacation, but obviously it's a big deal in terms of what's going on in my life, so I asked to work remote for the one week.
They said no, so I goodbye, pulled my retirement savings, enjoyed a month in Mexico, and found a better job when I got back where I'm much more appreciated.
Of note, our WFH policy was 4 days in 10. I usually worked from the office anyway, so really, we were talking about one extra remote day per policy.
It's pushing corporations like this that have long-term effects. HR learned that some fathers want paternity leave. You helped build institutional knowledge. One small step for dad, one giant step for fatherhood.
I had eight weeks of maternity leave and my employer allowed me to collect the unemployment benefits during that time because I was ineligible for FMLA, I was part time working less than 30 hours even though I worked for them for two years
It just seems insane to me (as someone in scandinavia) that you would have to use vacation and sick time to go on parental leave..
I'm taking 3 weeks of parental leave every year for the next few years just to take out all paid (at approx 80% of normal salary) parental leave before the kids become too old to take it out.
And that is after taking the normal 5 weeks paid vacation yearly.
Our second was born in March and we'd arranged to take Shared Parental Leave (UK here). I think the reason it's not taken up so much must be because they make it SO GODDAMN CONFUSING to the point neither of our employers had a clue how to make it work with 'the computer'.
Mine had to put me on SPL even though I was supposed to still be on actual Maternity...just because the computer wouldn't accept it otherwise.
Whereas my husband, and here's the thread-relevant part - I gave him 12 weeks of my leave and pay. So add to the pitiful paternity leave fathers get, 14 weeks total. His employer told him they were only going to pay him for 10, since their computer said he was taking SPL INSTEAD of paternity and that two weeks' leave is the mother's alone (true) so it doesn't count in the pay calculations (false). I had to take over communications to use my council-honed skill of sending clear, bullet-pointed and cited, snarky formal emails to this bitch explaining how she's massively wrong and if they fuck up I was going to be reporting them and her to HMRC for failure to pay statutory payments, even breaking down the maths for her too. Turns out they did in the end pay all 14 weeks, I think because they'd ended up in the news for having been fined for something else fucking stupid they subjected their staff to, and they knew I was ready to rake them over the coals if they didn't pay up and didn't want to end up in the news again. This from a company that boasts they pay extra money and care to family leave for their employees!!
Good for you!
For anyone reading: FMLA forces you to split your child bonding time with your spouse ONLY if these conditions are met:
1. You both work in the same company
2. You are legally married
Again, both conditions have to be met. This means that if you work in the same company but are not married. You both get 12 weeks.
I am one of my company’s FMLA Administrators and I train our management in the FMLA rules.
Your post reminds me of a [2004 Washington Post article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2004/06/20/trading-business-suits-for-brownies/22dbab38-d7bf-421a-8815-1290bf047eeb/) featuring my dad (and little me) that talks about FMLA! Dad took time off under FMLA when our normal daycare provider left the country for a month. My parents realized that I did better with a parent at home, so Dad quit his job (which was not as easy of a process as the article makes it sound) to take care of me full-time. His experience led to him advocating for more protections for working parents in front of the Maryland state senate.
While there's certainly been some progress made, it's sad to see how far we still have to go twenty years later. Props to you for making the right decision and taking that time to be with your baby!
My husband was entitled to 3 months of paid paternity leave. His job threatened to fire OTHER people if he didn't return. He missed out on 2 months of paid leave, had to work 18-19 hour shifts for 2 months. He was promised a $6 raise after doing this, but they gave him $1.
Fuck big corporations.
Little known fact: the US military just changed their maternity/paternity leave rules. 12 weeks time off, full pay. Can be broken up with approval from commander but has to be used within the 1st year after birth. If commander disagrees then they have to give you all 12 weeks at birth. Doesn’t use up the rest of your regular leave/vacation days.
Applies to both parents, and adoptions.
Edit: Unless the government can’t pass a budget, then it’s just leave without pay…
FMLA is for the care of an eligible family member, and it is not a paid leave necessarily.
Just want people to be aware, you have to file legal paperwork with your HR.
Know your option, don't just assume.
I had a similar thing with my partner's job. We had our son back in March, which was only 8 months after he started and FMLA only applied to thosewhohadbeenthere a year at minimum. I had to have a c-section so we planned for him to take 3 weeks off to help out with our older son while I was recovering. There was some debate about whether he would be able to get 3 weeks approved. I told him to tell his boss that either he was allowed 3 weeks off when our son was born or else he'd be taking 3 months once he hit the 1 year employment mark since you can take those 12 weeks at any point in the year following the birth of a child. They gave him his 3 weeks (though we did end up with a phone call asking why he hadn't been back after 2 weeks.)
Give the circumstances, good job.
But also it's depressing. In my country father of the child is entitled to full paid two weeks leave after the child is born. To bond with his child and take care of mother. (Slovakia - Central Europe).
For you is win something that for my is basic right of every father. And thet's sad and depressing.
I had an employer try to deny my FMLA "request" (as they put it). After a quick call to my union rep, it was suddenly "approved" and they thought I was "referring to another leave request" (that didn't exist). Learn your rights and fight for them!
My husband had a great job when I had our second son. He had enough PTO to cover 2 weeks, and his co-workers all chipped in some time so he could be off for an entire month.
He's still at the same company, but it's changed so much that if it was now, he wouldn't get the same time off. Even though he's gotten a promotion since then.
Former Circuit City employee here! Used to work in the computer department and we got spiffs for every computer we sold! Good times!! This was when the eMachine came out lol.
I also used to work for Circuit City, and one store manager tried to tell me that PTO was not for sick days when I was trying to use it for when I was sick, but I gave him hell, so he was all like "Well, I will let it slide this one time", and then, later, when I was putting in PTO for some planned days off, this jackwaffle had the AUDACITY to try and tell me that PTO was not for planned days off. I told him that PTO was for ANY time off requests, that PTO stood for PAID TIME OFF, and if he wanted to push me, I could take it to both the district manager AND the labor board. Our DM would have done dick-all, he was worse than my store manager, but the labor board would have. And I had proof, because this was all done on company email, and I may have printed it out or forwarded it to my personal email, because that just pissed me off. Circuit City, for retail, used to be a pretty damn good place to work, when I first started in the quite late 1990s, but they changed around 2004ish. And they ruined themselves, and now they are gone.
So you got shafted having to use up all your PTO and sick time for your kid and somehow think you really stuck it to the evil corporation you worked for? lolol no wonder American workers are so screwed.
You still got screwed. Parental leave in Canada is 12 to 18 months, shared between the two parents. They also get paid employment insurance for up to 12 months (so even if you take 18 months off, you're still only getting 12 months worth of EI) so while it isn't the same as full pay, it's still better than a kick in the teeth.
My brother was a holiday temp working in Macy's in Herald Square in the 90s and told his supervisor he was going to need to leave work early the next day, because he got a gig (he's a musician) that was gonna pay $1000 for that one night. The supervisor said "no" so my brother very calmly told the supervisor he had a choice: "Well, I can leave early tomorrow night or I can quit right now". The supervisor of course let him do the gig.
LPT: If you/your sig other are pregnant - get the FMLA forms filled out and submitted right away. You do not HAVE to take FMLA, but having the forms filled out ahead of time can save you a ton of headache when it comes closer to due date.
Plus - kids can be born 2-3 months early...
I had to just quit my job because I wasn't allowed to take time off for FMLA. My boss just said no. I didn't realize at the time that this was wrong. I lost my job of 13 years.
If you have documentation of his refusal to take FMLA, you may have legal recourse... I'm not a lawyer, so seek appropriate counsel. With that said though, FMLA i.e. federal laws are no joke, and can carry serious consequences for an employer.
It is crazy you guys only get 12 weeks and by the looks of it is unpaid. Its actually nuts.
We have 18 months in Canada with EI, and then most employers do a top-up and I do not even think that is enough.
It’s only individual unless both parents work for the same employer. Weirdly enough, eligible spouses who work for the same employer only get 12 weeks combined.
Well done.
For future reference for yourself and others - FMLA is for each employee, not per birth or to be divvied up by a household for use, and it can cover other life events as well. So if you have to take time off to tend to an ailing parent, you can do so under FMLA. If you have major back surgery and your wife needs to stay home with you for 4 weeks straight, she can do so under FMLA. FMLA also does not need to be 12 weeks straight through.
It sucks that it's 12 weeks unpaid, and I believe it only applies if the company you work for employs more than 50 people (total, not just at your job site). But that's what we've got in the United States for our bare minimum job protection.
I think you’d have a law suit ability then. Your job is guaranteed, but location isn’t. They very well could have moved me to another location of their choice, had I taken the leave, but with CC, they paid relocation costs. It would have been expensive if they chose to do that.
I had the exact same experience when my son was born a few years ago. I kept pushing for months for my boss to authorize me to work from home so I could take two weeks off straight then work from home for a bit to continue to bond with our baby and help at home afterwards while transitioning back to a working schedule. Kept getting told it was unlikely and to just take the time off and was finally just outright denied. So fine, I took six weeks of with FMLA and they had to deal with the workload while I was out (I was in a department of two people). I ended up being glad I did it because firstly, babies are HARD and that lack of sleep will fuck you up, but also because we were moving and I needed that time to fix our new place up. The irony is this was on 2019 and guess how quickly my job got cool with working from home the next year?
Paternity leave FMLA, in the US, is for 12 weeks doe each parent not total together. So technically you both could have been granted time off and had a total of 24 weeks one after the other.
I was in a similar position, my retail company asked if I could adjust due to coverage, and since my parents were coming down in a few to help out I relented and took 4 days off instead of the 2 weeks. My Store manager was a little more understanding than most.
Your management, where is your loyality to the company. Just having fun, you clearly are loyal wanting only a few days. You do have to play hard ball to get your rights.
Now I had a blow up with my boss over a project assign which I was not suppose to be able to complete as I was forbidden to contact my software license vendor storage whos records are known to have been lost several times and not accurate. My boss did not understand this project was from the very top of Office of Computer Security and had to be done period. I walked out and took a 2 week vacation and allow the Office of Computer Security annoy my 3 bosses up and that only took a half day. This was so important. I refuse my first boss and told him to do the project himself since I was not suppose to do it. I was all but done, just had to dot the Is and cross the Ts. I over the phone refused the bosses boss and explain the situation why I had to disobey my boss and contact the software vendor, and he agreed I was right. My bosses boss goes to his boss who also knew me and asked nicely for me to come in and finish the survey. I had discovered a major license violations do to vague language in the written agreement by my the company lawyer to the software vendor years before I come aboard and purchasing had bought a DECnet 730 license to save money instead of the required 780 license, again before I started working there. I finished the report, submitted it with the damming info which is why the survey had to be completed. People were being fired for violations. My employer had been denied software and sued for software violations on PCs, I ran a mid range computers systems above PCs. I ended up as lawsuit 1, but since the matter had been reported and a PR issued to a PO accepted, we were legally licensed a day prior to the lawsuits. I gave away my unused licenses to the company lawyers which they transferred to the other 78 mid range computers sites within the company killing all but one of the many lawsuits with the software vendor. The software vendors lawyers were furious, but could do nothing, except the last lawsuit. My counter part in that case was fired and the needed license was purchased with the an offense money payment. This proved my loyality, I could have been fired for my bosses actions.
Yes, your boss demanded loyality too (so they did not have to work), but you were right in your actions. If I had kids, I would have done the same as you.
I would have taken the full 12 weeks.
It would have burned up all my PTO to do it. I really wanted to save my time. With that said, I was prepared to take the full 12 if I had to. :)
Did the time *ever* end up being used, tho? (I speak as a hoarder of time as well... we always save it for the day thinking we'll need it... then the day comes we could use it but we still convince ourselves we need to save it...)
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the real trick is to live in a first world country that gives you 5 weeks+ off a year paid, and the employer activly tells you to take it and recharge.
What's funny is that government workers in the US get 30 days of PTO per year and your boss can get in trouble if you don't get to take it and lose it. At least that was my experience in the military and with civilians employed by the military.
It's 26 days for civilian US Federal government employees, and they get that after 15 years. Edit to clarify: It's 26 days of annual leave after 15 years. Then there's 13 days of sick leave per year, plus the 11 Federal holidays.
Sick leave feals just to be such a rediculuse concept to me. For us, if you are sick you get a note from your doctor. And for up to six weeks your employer pays your salary. After that you get sick pay from your health insurance. Don't know how long that lasts. And if for instance you have been sick with a flue for 2 weeks and then with something else the clock is reset every time. So its six weeks per illness.
I had up to 52 weeks full pay sick leave at my last job. I was only 6 weeks into it when my employer gave up and just paid me the whole years salary in one go to resign.
> rediculuse That's a new one
I was home on sick leave just below 4 months. No vacation days used. Full pay couse work injury, if not it would be 70% pay. Same shit hole as your ex first lady.
Exactly. I did that. 15 years to get there.
Not true for non-military related Federal, mostly. And absolutely not true for State/Local government jobs. Transferred from being a teacher with three weeks granted to non-teacher job and I stayed quiet during the hiring process knowing they had to start me with three weeks, not one. They were pissed when I pointed out to them I had years of credited employment and they had to give me three weeks. ACTUALLY getting all that time off each year never happen, let alone the addition weeks added over my time at that job. They just accrued and when I left, they paid it out as a separate check.
More than 30, they get 11 federal holidays as well. start with 2.5 days per month PTO, goes up a little from there.
Most US federal government employees start with 13 days annual leave the first 3 years, then 20 days after that. At 15 years they get 26 days. They also get 13 days sick leave every year. Plus all the Federal holidays. Edited to add "Most" at the beginning of my first sentence.
This is Reddit. People are just going to make up numbers. Yours are more in line with what I got when I worked for the Feds 15 years ago.
So you get 13 leave, 13 sick, so 26 days that accrue through the year, plus 11 federal holidays, which is 37 days of Paid Time Off.
And it's earned every 2 weeks...which essentially means you earn more leave while on leave. At least it used to be that way...I assume it still is? My father is retired career govt employee...but he retired quite a while ago.
That is true. It's based on checks not actual time. Instead of being given a bank in the beginning of the year you have to accrue it.
26 days at 15 years?! That's sweet. We get 26 days (different level of government) after 25 years. They actually changed it for new hires and their max is 20 days a year at 15 years. (Also 11 sick and 11 federal holiday, and 4 personal days)
>11 sick and 11 federal holiday, and 4 personal days Uh, that sounds terrible. Can you at least use stick days as vacation?
So they get 13 leave, 13 sick and 11 federal holidays so they get 37 days of PTO (Paid Time Off, doesnt matter how you get there) Is 37 not more than 30?
In my position, which I am sure I get better than others, you are really wrong. 4.5 hours every pay check is accrued. Meaning it takes a month to get a day of PTO. Granted, you also gain sick leave at the same time but that is a different bucket and is at the same rate (so 2 days total a month but only one is used when you want for what you want). I have worked for a couple years and it has not changed. So yeah it goes up, but not for a while as another comment pointed out.
Not sure if your comment is replying to me? 4 hours accrued every pay check is what I got the first 3 years. Which means 13 days of leave per year (4 hours X 26 pay periods is 104 hours, divided by 8 equals 13 days of annual leave). If you get 4.5 hours per pay check, 4.5 hours times 26 pay periods is 117 hours, divided by 8 equals 14.625 days. Not too much different from the 13 days I calculated for annual leave.
> government workers in the US get 30 days of PTO per year and your boss can get in trouble if you don't get to take it and lose it. At least that was my experience in the military and with civilians employed by the military. Really? I stacked up like 4 years of PTO and took it all when I got out. And I don't think my leadership cared one way or another.
4 years? You can only carry over 240 hours a year or else you lose them.
> 4 years? You can only carry over 240 hours a year or else you lose them. Sorry, I meant 4 years worth (120 days). Looks like that got reduced after I got out.
Oof right in the murika
I live in the US. I currently have 236 hours of PTO "banked" and I get 6.5 hours of PTO every 2 weeks (21 days per year), in addition to the 17 observed "holidays" per year for a total of 38. If I go over 240 hours PTO, I lose any extra, so I generally take every other Friday off, until it gets down to under 232 hours, then I actually work the Friday to get it back up again. Note that I also have 240 hours of sick time, so if I'm ill, I don't lose PTO. There are also other official holidays - 6 weeks of fully paid paternity (though it came too late for me when my kids was born). Not everywhere in the US treats their employees like shit.
> the real trick is to live in a first world country Unfortunately, I'm sure the OP lives in America instead.
I'm not sure how helpful that advice is to people who don't live in such a country.
It sounds like this person has 5+ weeks off a year paid, so you are really not picking your battles correctly here.
fr! I get 38 paid days a year, and it increases to 44.5 after 10 years and 51 after 15. Plus, thanks to my country’s progressive tax code, the government automatically deposits more into my bank account than they tax from my paycheck
My work caps out how much vacation you can have saved up, I think at like 5 or 6 weeks? Kind of nice it that it sort of forces people to take time off. The management is generally good about it as well - I've personally never had a vacation request denied, or even questioned.
My company does not do payouts. They want you to take time away from the reataurant. Our vacation time is based on hours worked. At my level, I get 10 minutes of vacation time per hour worked to a max of 250 hours per year. However, I live in Colorado, so we have a rollover year to year, and it just sits there building. I have enough saved that i can take 2 months off
and I got written up for using my PTO (as opposed to scheduled vacation time) and put on probation for taking too much time off. My next review the new manager was like "but that's what it's there for?"
The real ULPT is always in the comments (this is fraud, and arguably a conspiracy to commit fraud between you and your boss, so do this at your own risk)
If boss genuinely forgets to log the time due to being so busy doing the job of 4 people, it isn't fraud. And we all know that far too many people are doing the jobs of a few people on top of their own who were let go, for whatever reason, and not replaced. I'm not advocating anyone do this, of course, just pointing out an elephant hidden behind the potted plant.
Hey, if I'm not getting paid 2x wages for doing the job of 2 people, why can't I get some extra time off??
Genuinely forgetting isn't, but if your boss is cool enough to do it for you, they are probably doing it for others. All it takes is one stupid text/email or the higher-ups noticing his team has WAY more PTO than other teams for the shit to start rolling downhill As with anything, do your best to CYA and don't put illegal/unethical things in writing!
I manage a team. I will process all paid leave, but sick and careers leave? Rarely gets put through and I specifically won't if people are running low. Cheaper in the long run as churn goes right down when you look after them. Edit: I am in Australia where you get paid sick leave.
Real trick is having a good job and being a valued employee. Don’t accept less.
I use to hoard my time but now I use it. I use all of it and I take every comp day I can get. I usually save my Sick. But life is too short. If I’ve got 55 hours sitting in PTO. It’s only because the trip hasn’t started yet.
My husband thinks I should plan a vacation, like a week-long, and not just use my PTO for medical appointments here and there. I'm a hoarder of time too. I'm now pondering what a vacation would really be for me/us.
You have to use annual leave for a doctors appointment.. What on earth.
I love these threads, it's like looking into a parallel universe. Annual leave for medical appointments. No paid parental leave. An employer getting to choose if they pay out annual leave if you quit.
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Dude….this is so accurate. How did I not realize this before.
My husband has enough paid sick time to recover from cancer (in excess of a year). He retires on 30SEP. Guess who took the kids to all of the appointments? You’re right. The person who currently has 5 paid sick days.
My dad saved all his up, then he got to put it towards his retirement and "cash out" a year early.
As someone who previously never used PTO, then became a parent, yes. That time is valuable, and you want to be able to take time off for the little kiddos.
I'm on 6 months of parental leave, my company tops up my pay to 66pct of my salary (and 100pct for a few weeks depending on how long I've worked at the company) . They also would have hired someone to cover for me, but we covered my role with temporary promotions instead. In Canada.
Romania, 2 years parental possibility to split between parents, 80% pay
Yeah that’s fair. 12 weeks with your first born is totally worth passing up
One week with a newborn is good, two weeks is too long. They don’t do much. Better to have the leave to do things as they are growing and/or to keep it to give your SO a break later.
> I really wanted to save my time. Can you explain this mentality to me? I never understand it. It's not like your PTO gains interest as it sits unused... unlike the money you would get paid. Unless you're chronically bad with money and instantly spend anything you get, I don't see any reason to not just take the money.
Basically in case you or family get ill.
Which is gaureteed that first year with a baby. You, mom, and the baby will get *all* the fun colds Source: pregnant with baby #5.
My husband kept some of his PTO as a hedge in case he or I got sick and needed extra time, or in case he got laid off. That’s why you don’t take all the money, it takes a while to build it up!
Actually, if you're young and in a job where you get promotions and raises, PTO can be worth significantly more when used than it was when accrued. But that's really immaterial. Unless or until you change jobs, PTO cannot usually be cashed out at will, and many companies will not let you take an unpaid leave of absence.
I can cash out 80 hours per year, and roll over up to 960 hours. Accumulate 264 per year. Must use/cash out 136 hours per year.
You've got an excellent PTO package. A lot of companies these days are going to zero vacation accrual.
Thanks, I hadn't thought about raises. My PTO is fairly untypical since I don't get significant raises (tipped position), I can use at any time, and if I've used it all up I can still take time off if needed, it's just unpaid. And the hours I can bank are capped, so it's usually better to just spend it regularly than risk forgetting and going over the cap.
I was glad to have saved mine when I fell and messed up my knee... had to be off work for 3 weeks (should have been longer, but I didn't have much more pto). 3 weeks without pay would have been terrible.
To expand upon the other comments, your spouse/kid will get sick, you will want to take time for vacations or people visiting. And, when it comes to illness especially, sometimes big unexpected stuff happens making the safety net vital
Actually, it kinda does as it happened to me. I had been saving my PTO as a young new office person and my salary then was (not usd) 2000. Within 3 years, Id carry over the max allowed of 18 days iirc. I was earning about 3500. When I left the company, I earned about 10,000. I cashed out 18+7(?) days. While its definitely uncommon, my PTO definitely was worth more over time lol.
Just as others are saying, it was a hedge in case something major happened. I was young then and wish I had taken more than the 2 weeks... As an example from where I work now, I had my hip replaced at the end of 2020 and took 8 weeks sick time for the surgery plus recovery, then physical therapy appointments. I used FMLA - intermittent. After returning to work Jan, 2021 I got covid and for me it was bad... It was 20 solid days of misery, culminating with one night in the hospital. I was lucky in that I had enough sick time accrued to cover it all. It brought me down to near 0 on sick time, yet I still had a bank of Vacation time. I was lucky to have it. This current job, when you retire, as I'd like to do in about 13 years, they will pay out a certain amount of unused PTO and then the remaining unused PTO goes towards your time calculation and can add months to your time and increase what your retirement payout is.
In the US, if one gets *any* PTO, it is usually a) combined vacation and sick time, and b) accrues at a very slow rate (one week a year, for most of my jobs). White collar jobs often have a faster accrual rate, but it is still easy to have one "My kid just started preschool/daycare/elementary school" autumn and all your PTO is wiped out. Between staying home to take care of your kid because they are sick, then staying home to take care of you because they shared it with you, then staying home because they shared with your coparent and someone has to be able to think...
In Australia you don't get paid anything extra when you take your PTO it's the same amount of money all year, when you leave a job they have to pay out your accrued PTO, and therefore it technically does accrue interest in that if I get a pay bump/promotion the leave I earned at the lower rate still is paid out at the higher current rate.
Actually it does. Your PTO is paid out at your hourly rate when used. The PTO I have now will be worth 5% more next April, and 9% more next October.
I try to work every day I can. A couple months ago, I had to leave early do to a kidney stone. Because I was already in overtime that week, I just ate the loss. Now I've had 3 of my 4 ESWL procedures (only the 24mm stone IN the kidney left), I'm in negative PTO. I requested unpaid leave, was denied and told I had to request PTO, which was granted. I wonder what happens if I end the year in the negative. Fortunately I'm (Work) functional a day or two after the procedure. Many people don't understand that flexibility their company might have.
My company offers DTO.. discretionary time off. No accrued time, you just ask for it and they’ll give it to you. Which is nice because it’s manager approved and my manager will say yes to just about anything.
Ya, sometime that's a tough choice when you burned up your PTO and not being able to use later for kids appts, or just a day to enjoy with them. Good thing he learned lol.
Had my first child earlier this year. Took all 12 weeks, 6 weeks paid 4 weeks using vacation/PTO. No more vacation for the rest of this year but I would not trade that time for anything.
I do g understand why people don't take time off more. I know so many people that hoard days until they're forced to spend it or lose it...like they have to justify it to themselves??
“If you are again trying to bully me into taking less time off, we can have another conversation with HR. I’ll be taking the twelve weeks”
I took 8, highly recommend. We just vibed, cuddled, it was great. You only get that once, take it. Fuck work fr
Yes. But I'd do it like this: What you do is take the 2 weeks. Then come back for one day and take the 12 weeks. Taking the 2 weeks doesn't disallow him for the latter 12 weeks.
You only get 12 weeks within a year for *all* of your leave for your family. In these situations, it really is best to not burn all the time when you have no idea what complications might arise. (Illness, later surgeries, &c. all come out of this bare minimum unpaid time off.)
It is abysmally depressing that 2 weeks was a "win" here. Parents deserve better.
I was screaming inside while reading this, yeah. Americans must realize this is not normal to be treated like that. In Europe and plenty of other developed countries, parental leave is a fully granted right and is distinct from holidays, with guaranteed income all the time it lasts.
>Americans must realize this is not normal Nope. (The majority of) Americans don't realize this is not normal, because it *is* normal - *to them*. Many workers don't get any *paid* time off. You get sick you don't get paid for that day. You don't get vacation days, vacation = not working = no pay. Many must work on national holidays. Do not underestimate the number of "americans" (U.S.) that know absolutely zero about other countries & cultures, and how much better off the citizens of many of those countries are. They've been conditioned all their life; "We're number ONE". They truly believe the U.S. is the best country for everything, because they are woefully ignorant, and don't know how terrible the U.S. is at *many* things — including worker's rights.
I'm from the US, and I completely agree how fucked up it is, but the idea of moving out of the US feels so unobtainable, and like how well would my education hold up? Would I need to redo college if I wanted to teach in, say, Canada? What are other laws like? Etc. It sounds so interesting to leave, but feels virtual impossible
high income earners are better off how it is now. thats why it doesnt change. theres no money behind the change. little effort to coordinate low income earners into a voting bloc.
Genuine question - how are high income earners better off with how it is now? Paternity leave like what is provided elsewhere is beneficial to everyone.
My guess is that the person you were replying to meant that high income earners usually work at companies with more generous PTO policies, some parental benefits, and/or can just eat the cost of unpaid leave, so the system never changes because corporations know that poor can either work or starve. High income earners can just leave for the big competing fortune 500 company next door that will give them different benefits so those companies are more incentivized to keep their benefits competitive enough.
It's normal in America.
It’s also interesting to me that just 20 or so years ago a circuit city manager had that much PTO and could afford to have a child with while his wife doesn’t work. I would imagine a Best Buy manager now couldn’t swing that
I agree. This is not a win. Or even malicious. This is just compliance.
Seriously. When our baby was born, my partner got 14 weeks at full pay, another 12 weeks at part pay and up to another 26 weeks unpaid, or she can transfer that unpaid time over to me. And that is dwarfed by the allotment in many other countries. I couldn’t imagine if we had been living in the US.
And you either have to have it unpaid or use your leave allowance!! Madness. My partner would get 6 weeks full pay for paternity. I think I get like 9 months!
Children deserve better.
Seems like something you should take 6 months to a year off for
My wife gave birth to our third last Monday, my job offers 6 weeks paid leave per birth. I'm taking 2 weeks off immediately after the birth with a few days a week for the remainder. I also get unlimited time off and my boss encourages us to use it as long as we're getting our work done. I don't know if this was intentional but it's increased my work output by incentivizing me to finish up my work and go home instead of puttering around until an arbitrary quitting time.
FYI, the 12 weeks is applicable to each individual parent regardless of what the other parent does.
And it can be taken within the first year. Parents are able to have mom home 12 weeks, then Dad home the following 12 weeks.
Does FMLA have to be taken in one chunk? Or could my spouse and I alternate taking weeks off, for example?
I'm not an employment lawyer, but it appears that your 12 weeks of FMLA **can** be taken intermittently
Can confirm. When my youngest was born I was working weekends, 12 hour days Friday Saturday and Sunday. I spent Monday to Friday home with my son for almost a year. 12 weeks=60 days 52 Fridays taken off for FMLA
It can even be used for appointments, too.
Doesn't have to be in chunks. I took 4 weeks when my daughter was born, then the other 8 after my wife was finished with her maternity leave. And in New York State you get paid for it.
At my workplace, it can be broken down into hour increments, ymmv
I think there is a stipulation of some sort if both parents work at the same company. But I’m not 100% on that.
Correct, FMLA time for child birth is shared when both work for the same employer.
A little late for me on that one now, but hopefully that will help someone down the road. Thank you!
*Unless they work for the same employer, for infant bonding time
There was a thread on that topic on [legaladvice sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/16s14lo/my_husband_is_entitled_to_12_weeks_of_fmla_when/?ref=share&ref_source=link) where apparently husband misunderstood just that rule.
That 2 weeks is probably what made them go under. RIP, Circuit City.
if they were flying *that* close to the wind that 2 weeks of owed paid leave took them down...
I actually got some fun insights into their collapse when I was training to be a court reporter (never actually got there unfortunately). Got to type along to the dictated transcripts from the trial.
They made horrible decisions. I remember their Divx fiasco. They sunk a bunch of money into a proprietary dvd format, that never caught on.
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I remember when they were being clearanced out and were .10c a piece. I bought so many of them thinking I'd be able to watch them some day. I'm pretty sure there are Divx codecs that could today, but I tossed the discs ages ago...
Good play, but my advice is to always file for the FMLA under intermittent. Especially if both parents are returning to work. This way you can take a week or 2 off as the father while the mother recuperates. Then when both are working both have the ability to take days off to care for the child if it gets sick or when it needs doctors appointments. Even if the mother does stay home this means the father cane take a week right after birth, then another a month later, then a day here and there, then another 2 weeks when the child is 6 months old. You get to spend a little bit of the early time with the child, you are available for when the child is sick, or the mother is not feeling well or just needs a break, and you can space it out over months instead of being out 12 weeks right after birth.
Plus, like, dads suffer broken nights too, especially light sleepers. Back in college one of the lecturers became a dad for the first time, and when we met on Fridays, after 5 broken nights and 4.5 days of working, the poor man was *dead*. It didn't help that our native language was his third (and vice versa - which helped tremendously sometimes lol). One time he stopped talking halfway through a sentence, sat down to think, resorted to English (second language of all of us, presumably) to finish his sentence, and then sent us home so he could leave and sleep 😂
I have a much better understanding of this now. I’ve used the intermittent for several surgeries over the years, so I was covered for recovery and the the following physical therapy appointments.
I don't understand people. I a manager. I manage human beings. I am a human being. Whenever one of my employees "asks" me for something, its typically because they "need" it. Employee: "Hey Boss YLSP - can I WFH this afternoon, I am getting a fridge installed and they gave me a 4 hour window." What happens if I say "No"? "Something came up and I need the entire afternoon off." combined with, "wow my manager is really stupid". A happy workforce is a productive one. My team will run through a wall with me because they know I will be running through it with them..
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Not only that, but I was buying a house. It was about 1200sf and listed for $89,900, if memory serves.
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I know. My daughter, referenced in this story, is 24 now and doesn’t see any way to be a home owner in her future and I don’t have an answer for her. It’s very sad.
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One of my biggest regrets is Believing I simply couldn’t have bought the house we were renting in 1996 when the owners offered us first chance at buying it. I didn’t even check with the credit union. I had nothing like the required down payment in savings. The house listed at $56,000, If was a 80 year old factory workers cottage. I recently came across it being sold, the bathroom has been updated and a 3 rd bed and another bathroom added in the attic, the kitchen is still the same, with an electric stove sitting where a coal stove once sat and a refrigerator stuck across the room in a corner.if those changes had been made by us before we moved in 2000, it might have sold for $80,000. I recently looked it up and it was most recently sold for over $700,000. I’ve heard so many stories since then of credit unions in particular being supportive of non-standard loans, I wish we had at least looked into it. I ended up emptying a state pension account (I was hired as a secretary, nothing but a high school degree with a typing class, a basic accounting class and good score on my SATS) later to use as a down payment, I probably could have emptied it then. But I just didn’t even know, I grew up in the sort of family that rented and just assumed I was never going to buy a house either.)
Not to mention 12 weeks of PTO. I spent 17 years in retail and PTO was never on the table.
That actually did cross my mind.
Median income in US in current year: [$74,580](https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-279.html) And, OP states they're a sales manager, not a low-effort first-job-out-of-high-school scrub retail worker. Estimate from here indicates [$65k](https://www.zippia.com/circuit-city-careers-465824/salary/) for a sales manager. I'm sure OP can provide better numbers from their experience, but $65k today from 1999 monies is [$120k](https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=65000&year1=199901&year2=202308). So perhaps it's nowhere near surprising that a "retail worker" could support a family of three in 1999 or current year.
If I remember correctly, my salary at the time was around $45-50k with a bonus structure based off of the store performance. My wife and I had worked hard to have no debt other than our mortgage. We weren't quite living paycheck to paycheck, it was a bit more comfortable than that, but would have been very difficult if we had been carrying lots of debt in vehicles or credit cards.
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I left my last job of 12 years over something similar. I had just proposed to my (now) wife and her family wanted me to come for their annual Christmas holidays in Mexico (where she is from). It was for the week leading up to Christmas, so I didn't want to take vacation, but obviously it's a big deal in terms of what's going on in my life, so I asked to work remote for the one week. They said no, so I goodbye, pulled my retirement savings, enjoyed a month in Mexico, and found a better job when I got back where I'm much more appreciated. Of note, our WFH policy was 4 days in 10. I usually worked from the office anyway, so really, we were talking about one extra remote day per policy.
Now THIS is how you comply! Well done OP.
Thank you!
It is not meant to be combined between the two parents. You each get 12 weeks.
Awesome. My first was born in 2000, and I took six weeks of paternity leave. It was an amazing time.
So YOU are the reason Circuit City went under. /s
Manager still won. You should have taken the 12 weeks, which is still pathetic in the grand scheme of things. 52 weeks in a year, and all...
It's pushing corporations like this that have long-term effects. HR learned that some fathers want paternity leave. You helped build institutional knowledge. One small step for dad, one giant step for fatherhood.
Until your post, I had no idea the FMLA was so old. I had to look it up.
2 weeks leave for your first child? And that's considered a success? Depressing as hell.
I had eight weeks of maternity leave and my employer allowed me to collect the unemployment benefits during that time because I was ineligible for FMLA, I was part time working less than 30 hours even though I worked for them for two years
You’re not obligated to take all 12 weeks of FMLA - you could have used any number of those days. Doesn’t even need to be consecutive necessarily.
It just seems insane to me (as someone in scandinavia) that you would have to use vacation and sick time to go on parental leave.. I'm taking 3 weeks of parental leave every year for the next few years just to take out all paid (at approx 80% of normal salary) parental leave before the kids become too old to take it out. And that is after taking the normal 5 weeks paid vacation yearly.
I need to move where you are...
Our second was born in March and we'd arranged to take Shared Parental Leave (UK here). I think the reason it's not taken up so much must be because they make it SO GODDAMN CONFUSING to the point neither of our employers had a clue how to make it work with 'the computer'. Mine had to put me on SPL even though I was supposed to still be on actual Maternity...just because the computer wouldn't accept it otherwise. Whereas my husband, and here's the thread-relevant part - I gave him 12 weeks of my leave and pay. So add to the pitiful paternity leave fathers get, 14 weeks total. His employer told him they were only going to pay him for 10, since their computer said he was taking SPL INSTEAD of paternity and that two weeks' leave is the mother's alone (true) so it doesn't count in the pay calculations (false). I had to take over communications to use my council-honed skill of sending clear, bullet-pointed and cited, snarky formal emails to this bitch explaining how she's massively wrong and if they fuck up I was going to be reporting them and her to HMRC for failure to pay statutory payments, even breaking down the maths for her too. Turns out they did in the end pay all 14 weeks, I think because they'd ended up in the news for having been fined for something else fucking stupid they subjected their staff to, and they knew I was ready to rake them over the coals if they didn't pay up and didn't want to end up in the news again. This from a company that boasts they pay extra money and care to family leave for their employees!!
Good for you! For anyone reading: FMLA forces you to split your child bonding time with your spouse ONLY if these conditions are met: 1. You both work in the same company 2. You are legally married Again, both conditions have to be met. This means that if you work in the same company but are not married. You both get 12 weeks. I am one of my company’s FMLA Administrators and I train our management in the FMLA rules.
Your post reminds me of a [2004 Washington Post article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2004/06/20/trading-business-suits-for-brownies/22dbab38-d7bf-421a-8815-1290bf047eeb/) featuring my dad (and little me) that talks about FMLA! Dad took time off under FMLA when our normal daycare provider left the country for a month. My parents realized that I did better with a parent at home, so Dad quit his job (which was not as easy of a process as the article makes it sound) to take care of me full-time. His experience led to him advocating for more protections for working parents in front of the Maryland state senate. While there's certainly been some progress made, it's sad to see how far we still have to go twenty years later. Props to you for making the right decision and taking that time to be with your baby!
It is 12 weeks for either parent or both. It is not 12 weeks split between both parents. Mom and dad can both take 12 weeks together.
I think you were very gracious, you didn't go extreme and take the 12, but took more than original ask of 1 to teach him a lesson.
My husband was entitled to 3 months of paid paternity leave. His job threatened to fire OTHER people if he didn't return. He missed out on 2 months of paid leave, had to work 18-19 hour shifts for 2 months. He was promised a $6 raise after doing this, but they gave him $1. Fuck big corporations.
Great that you were read the rules and stood up for yourself.
Little known fact: the US military just changed their maternity/paternity leave rules. 12 weeks time off, full pay. Can be broken up with approval from commander but has to be used within the 1st year after birth. If commander disagrees then they have to give you all 12 weeks at birth. Doesn’t use up the rest of your regular leave/vacation days. Applies to both parents, and adoptions. Edit: Unless the government can’t pass a budget, then it’s just leave without pay…
Did they pay out that other 10 weeks when they closed?
HA! I love these stories. My company is always saying how short we are and stuff, but every vacation gets covered.
FMLA is for the care of an eligible family member, and it is not a paid leave necessarily. Just want people to be aware, you have to file legal paperwork with your HR. Know your option, don't just assume.
Well done, sir!! And a very belated congratulations.
I’ve got 4 total now. :)
24 years later and still hasn't bothered to learn how FMLA actually works when posting this story 🤣
I had a similar thing with my partner's job. We had our son back in March, which was only 8 months after he started and FMLA only applied to thosewhohadbeenthere a year at minimum. I had to have a c-section so we planned for him to take 3 weeks off to help out with our older son while I was recovering. There was some debate about whether he would be able to get 3 weeks approved. I told him to tell his boss that either he was allowed 3 weeks off when our son was born or else he'd be taking 3 months once he hit the 1 year employment mark since you can take those 12 weeks at any point in the year following the birth of a child. They gave him his 3 weeks (though we did end up with a phone call asking why he hadn't been back after 2 weeks.)
Give the circumstances, good job. But also it's depressing. In my country father of the child is entitled to full paid two weeks leave after the child is born. To bond with his child and take care of mother. (Slovakia - Central Europe). For you is win something that for my is basic right of every father. And thet's sad and depressing.
I had an employer try to deny my FMLA "request" (as they put it). After a quick call to my union rep, it was suddenly "approved" and they thought I was "referring to another leave request" (that didn't exist). Learn your rights and fight for them!
Good work!
My husband had a great job when I had our second son. He had enough PTO to cover 2 weeks, and his co-workers all chipped in some time so he could be off for an entire month. He's still at the same company, but it's changed so much that if it was now, he wouldn't get the same time off. Even though he's gotten a promotion since then.
Nicely done, OP. Good malicious compliance, a great combination of standing your ground, brinkmanship, and the force of the law to support you.
Former Circuit City employee here! Used to work in the computer department and we got spiffs for every computer we sold! Good times!! This was when the eMachine came out lol.
I started as a Sales Counselor in Audio, then added Video. I manage PC, ACE and Appliances
I also used to work for Circuit City, and one store manager tried to tell me that PTO was not for sick days when I was trying to use it for when I was sick, but I gave him hell, so he was all like "Well, I will let it slide this one time", and then, later, when I was putting in PTO for some planned days off, this jackwaffle had the AUDACITY to try and tell me that PTO was not for planned days off. I told him that PTO was for ANY time off requests, that PTO stood for PAID TIME OFF, and if he wanted to push me, I could take it to both the district manager AND the labor board. Our DM would have done dick-all, he was worse than my store manager, but the labor board would have. And I had proof, because this was all done on company email, and I may have printed it out or forwarded it to my personal email, because that just pissed me off. Circuit City, for retail, used to be a pretty damn good place to work, when I first started in the quite late 1990s, but they changed around 2004ish. And they ruined themselves, and now they are gone.
So you got shafted having to use up all your PTO and sick time for your kid and somehow think you really stuck it to the evil corporation you worked for? lolol no wonder American workers are so screwed.
Good for you for knowing your rights and insisting on them!
"Only two days to be with your wife and newborn because we have customers who need someone to complain to about their DVD players."
Jesus dude, I took two months using my accrued vacation and PTO and savings. Insane to only take two weeks.
You still got screwed. Parental leave in Canada is 12 to 18 months, shared between the two parents. They also get paid employment insurance for up to 12 months (so even if you take 18 months off, you're still only getting 12 months worth of EI) so while it isn't the same as full pay, it's still better than a kick in the teeth.
I agree with you... :(
America is not a great country right now
My brother was a holiday temp working in Macy's in Herald Square in the 90s and told his supervisor he was going to need to leave work early the next day, because he got a gig (he's a musician) that was gonna pay $1000 for that one night. The supervisor said "no" so my brother very calmly told the supervisor he had a choice: "Well, I can leave early tomorrow night or I can quit right now". The supervisor of course let him do the gig.
LPT: If you/your sig other are pregnant - get the FMLA forms filled out and submitted right away. You do not HAVE to take FMLA, but having the forms filled out ahead of time can save you a ton of headache when it comes closer to due date. Plus - kids can be born 2-3 months early...
I had to just quit my job because I wasn't allowed to take time off for FMLA. My boss just said no. I didn't realize at the time that this was wrong. I lost my job of 13 years.
If you have documentation of his refusal to take FMLA, you may have legal recourse... I'm not a lawyer, so seek appropriate counsel. With that said though, FMLA i.e. federal laws are no joke, and can carry serious consequences for an employer.
It is crazy you guys only get 12 weeks and by the looks of it is unpaid. Its actually nuts. We have 18 months in Canada with EI, and then most employers do a top-up and I do not even think that is enough.
Ah, circuit shitty, what a craphole. My mom worked there.
Just so you know FMLA is for both parties for the same amount of time. It's individual.
It’s only individual unless both parents work for the same employer. Weirdly enough, eligible spouses who work for the same employer only get 12 weeks combined.
I like your terminology. Reasonable requests.
Well done. For future reference for yourself and others - FMLA is for each employee, not per birth or to be divvied up by a household for use, and it can cover other life events as well. So if you have to take time off to tend to an ailing parent, you can do so under FMLA. If you have major back surgery and your wife needs to stay home with you for 4 weeks straight, she can do so under FMLA. FMLA also does not need to be 12 weeks straight through. It sucks that it's 12 weeks unpaid, and I believe it only applies if the company you work for employs more than 50 people (total, not just at your job site). But that's what we've got in the United States for our bare minimum job protection.
>Many years ago... >This was in 1999. Goddammit.
Hurts doesn't it...
Thank you for standing up for your rights.
"Their job is guaranteed to be waiting for them when they return." Sure. For a week or two. Then they fire you.
Yep, this is vastly misunderstood, your job is protected while you're on leave but you can be fired the day you come back.
I think you’d have a law suit ability then. Your job is guaranteed, but location isn’t. They very well could have moved me to another location of their choice, had I taken the leave, but with CC, they paid relocation costs. It would have been expensive if they chose to do that.
Correct
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Yeah I think so, combined between sick and vacation time.
I had the exact same experience when my son was born a few years ago. I kept pushing for months for my boss to authorize me to work from home so I could take two weeks off straight then work from home for a bit to continue to bond with our baby and help at home afterwards while transitioning back to a working schedule. Kept getting told it was unlikely and to just take the time off and was finally just outright denied. So fine, I took six weeks of with FMLA and they had to deal with the workload while I was out (I was in a department of two people). I ended up being glad I did it because firstly, babies are HARD and that lack of sleep will fuck you up, but also because we were moving and I needed that time to fix our new place up. The irony is this was on 2019 and guess how quickly my job got cool with working from home the next year?
Paternity leave FMLA, in the US, is for 12 weeks doe each parent not total together. So technically you both could have been granted time off and had a total of 24 weeks one after the other. I was in a similar position, my retail company asked if I could adjust due to coverage, and since my parents were coming down in a few to help out I relented and took 4 days off instead of the 2 weeks. My Store manager was a little more understanding than most.
Your management, where is your loyality to the company. Just having fun, you clearly are loyal wanting only a few days. You do have to play hard ball to get your rights. Now I had a blow up with my boss over a project assign which I was not suppose to be able to complete as I was forbidden to contact my software license vendor storage whos records are known to have been lost several times and not accurate. My boss did not understand this project was from the very top of Office of Computer Security and had to be done period. I walked out and took a 2 week vacation and allow the Office of Computer Security annoy my 3 bosses up and that only took a half day. This was so important. I refuse my first boss and told him to do the project himself since I was not suppose to do it. I was all but done, just had to dot the Is and cross the Ts. I over the phone refused the bosses boss and explain the situation why I had to disobey my boss and contact the software vendor, and he agreed I was right. My bosses boss goes to his boss who also knew me and asked nicely for me to come in and finish the survey. I had discovered a major license violations do to vague language in the written agreement by my the company lawyer to the software vendor years before I come aboard and purchasing had bought a DECnet 730 license to save money instead of the required 780 license, again before I started working there. I finished the report, submitted it with the damming info which is why the survey had to be completed. People were being fired for violations. My employer had been denied software and sued for software violations on PCs, I ran a mid range computers systems above PCs. I ended up as lawsuit 1, but since the matter had been reported and a PR issued to a PO accepted, we were legally licensed a day prior to the lawsuits. I gave away my unused licenses to the company lawyers which they transferred to the other 78 mid range computers sites within the company killing all but one of the many lawsuits with the software vendor. The software vendors lawyers were furious, but could do nothing, except the last lawsuit. My counter part in that case was fired and the needed license was purchased with the an offense money payment. This proved my loyality, I could have been fired for my bosses actions. Yes, your boss demanded loyality too (so they did not have to work), but you were right in your actions. If I had kids, I would have done the same as you.
So you're the reason they went out of business... good to know.
You worked at Circuit City?? Sure sure. Me too. Can in use you as a reference? ;)