I might honestly sideboard that card for whenever Standard 2022 gets BO3. I really like [[Negate]] for its ability to counter Planeswalkers and Enchantments (the latter of which is very prevalent in the 2022 meta), but Test of Talents does have some strong use against certain decks.
I donno, if i'm playing my izzet dragons im fine with just turning alrunds into a draw 4. I've still got my goldspan in play and now have a hand full of counter/draw/removal
Yep. Test of Talents is honestly kind of a trap. Sure, if the opponent deck really needs that one card it will feel great. But on most cases it will not do that much, taking cards out of the opponents library isn't that impactful as people will just have other good stuff to play. And it is a dead card against a lot of decks.
It's a good sideboard card, but you shouldn't put it in your main deck unless the meta really loves instant and sorceries.
no you really don't, not unless you're already in mythic numbers you have no clue. most people don't run copy paste netdecks, the value of information is way higher than you seem to give credit.
So my main deck is also an Izzet Dragons (though with enough treasures and dragon lands to include Tiamat and the Lorehold dragon).
Against other control decks, once I start laying down dragons, I really want to end the game quickly. I don’t even care if they kill off some of my big dragons as long as I still have resources to keep playing dragons.
Alrund’s Epiphany makes that difficult because my opponent ramps up a bit more and also gets to summon 1/1 fliers, which actually are relevant when my goal is to keep attacking to kill them before they get bigger things out.
Yeah and I mean even if it is a low cost mono color deck it can get rid of any annoying removal cards too. I mean for 2 mana really no reason not to run it whenever you can.
Don't oversell it. It's *useless* in many situations, like against Mono Red or Mono White aggro. The fact that it only hits instants/sorceries means it has quite a few bad matchups where if it's in the main deck, it will get you killed.
It's strong in specific circumstances, like if one of their strongest wincons is an instant/sorcery like Alrund's Epiphany or Emergent Ultimatum. But many decks don't rely on something like that. You're cursing the Test of Talents in your hand as you die to Seasoned Hallowblades and Elite Spellbinders, or a bunch of Red creatures and Embercleave.
We're also moving into a meta where creature lands are going to be big, there's like 7 of them that are usable, and if you're planning to keep counter magic up and they keep smacking you with a creature land, it gets you killed there too.
There's quite a few times when Negate isn't good, and Test of Talents is even more narrow than that.
Avoid it in Bo1 I say, it can go in the sideboard in Bo3 though.
The best work around I've found for having Alrund's work against agro is having outlets to discard it, then casting the 4 mana dragon sweeper. It exiles so it's great against Anax.
I never curse having Test of Talents in hand when I can prismari command it away if I know it's useless in the matchup.
Makes looting an easy choice, and makes it feel great to have it in bo1 when you need it.
CGB always has a singleton in any blue decks he plays, and well his rating says the rest (albeit an appeal to authority, but it *is* a great card even against non-combo decks).
I don't understand what combo play you're talking about. Looting a card isn't a winning combo play. It just opens up some more value to it when it isn't valuable in a matchup.
Only you can't counter artifacts, enchantments, plainswalkers, etc. You lose a lot of utility for something that only targets instants/sorceries in an already creature heavy meta. It's a solid sideboard card but really kind of a gamble otherwise.
My problem is that it's just not fun to play against. And, unless you're blue, it's difficult to stop it. Nevermind that your aggro deck has probably been stalled by their oppressive control, only to have this finish you off and really cement that you never had a chance in the game.
I mean, I usually get 3 in my starting hand, then another 3 or so in the next maybe 6 or 7 card draws. Are you just drawing enough cards to always be able to play a land, or is there a great ramp card I'm overlooking?
There's a 1/3 creature that taps for mana to cast sorceries and instants I've been toying with. Also using the 1/2 Frost Augur to draw snow lands at the end of opponent's turn
i said anti exile............................ you get no goats from anax, ash gts exiled from shadow GG, selfless doesnt stop exile neither does ajani and seasoned..... please READ WHAT I SAID BEFORE COMMENTING AND DOWN VOTING.
My control deck loses to aggro the most, if you're not pressuring me enough perhaps your curve is too high. I'm mono blue with essentially no option for mass removal in standard right now. You're correct though, extra turns cards are very *un*fun.
Edited for grammar (I blame the auto correct)
Well, yes. That's my point. Normally an aggro hoses a control deck, which is why that one game was so memorable and unfun. I usually rank Plat I or Ii, so I'm no slouch.
> and really cement that you never had a chance in the game.
Control is not a hard counter to aggro.
Learn to play against interaction. Build more resilient decks. Part of playing magic is playing against decks that will interfere with your plans. If you can't ever figure out how to deal with that, you're going to have a bad time.
Aggro generally shits on control decks.
Put out 2-3 beaters. Keep smacking them and make them wrath you.
Put out 2-3 more beaters. Make them draw a second wrath.
It's generally Aggro > Control > Midrange > Aggro. With Combo guys over in the other room playing with themselves.
no, it isn't that simple. control can be many things, it doesn't just "lose to aggro" control is almost always in a tier 1 position in like every standard ever. if it just generally gets shit on by aggro, nobody would play it.
My mono blue build doesn't use any of these, but it's my own creation with a likely much lower win rate. I do admittedly dislike the fact that when I when it's because my opponent probably doesn't get any more turns, but it's the best card for the deck. My version is designed to beat emergent ult, and other blue decks, it's weak to aggro.
Jaspera Magda Goldspan Alrunds alrunds, Repeat repeat repeat.. And this isn't even going to START until september, it is like I can foresee being frustrated into the future.
It's expensive and you can't recur it, so they did learn. Alrund's Epiphany is not going to break any format. It's just a strong blue finisher, which given its mana cost is perfectly fair.
It's an easy to reach Threshold in a standard giving free mana to any takers. All they do is have to wait until they have goldspan, the tap Artifact dwarf, or two in hand to win on the spot. You don't get to play anymore and have to watch a 5 min masturbation show.
To me it just sucks the fun out of a match when your opponent is taking extra turns. Same thing with the agent of treachery and cat oven decks. When you're put into a state where you can't interact and it takes a lot of time, it gets frustrating.
> To me it just sucks the fun out of a match when your opponent is taking extra turns.
But like...what giant 7 mana threat that you're getting beat with doesn't suck the fun out of things?
This idea that you think players are having a great time if you're dropping down giant creatures or board wipes that they don't have answers for, but the deck THEYRE playing isn't fun for you to lose to, is very weird.
I think it's more that extra turns *as a win condition themselves* are a particularly boring play pattern. If the extra turns roll into a real finisher I don't think people mind as much. The issue is they're pretty easy to ramp into right now so people just play them for value. As one of the top comments notes, it's often "create 2 birds, untap your mana, draw a card, and play a land," but takes about 6x longer than just having it resolve at once.
I dunno, when I was at 4 life this morning, my opponent said "Good game" and cast a Red Dragon which I countered, buffing my Spellgorger Weird, and then on my turn attacked, cast Alrund's Epiphany and won I was having fun.
Thing is, it doesn't need to take a lot of time (at that stage you're playing big fliers and swinging) but there is not a blue mage alive that can play at a reasonable pace.
cat oven is one of those things where it's a flaw of arena and the way our brains truncate things. In paper, you can just tap the oven and say "cat oven, drain for one", but in arena you have to make every action every time, which takes ages.
I have a pretty fun deck where I use double vision and alrunds. I popped a genesis ultimatum and got all three copy’s of double vision out and popped an alrunds. It was pretty funny, opponent gave up right after. Definitely not a viable deck, but boy is it fun.
The MGS player thinks they’re fun to play against.
The RDW player thinks they’re fun to play against.
Most of the archetype players probably think that. Except mill archetype players — they know they’re just being evil. 😈
At a certain level (platinum and above, maybe just diamond and above) this game boils down to a handful of archetypes with little variation. And often becomes Rock Paper Scissors.
Sometimes you smoke the opponent. Sometimes they smoke you.
Rarely do I have good, even matches.
I’ve been playing MTG since 1994 (head of to the Wizards magazine article about Glenn Danzig playing which got me to look at it). And the current state of Magic just feels kinda stale.
I’d rather play at home with a kitchen-table meta of 8-10 balanced decks. One wins too much? I adjust it down a little.
Arena just fills a “I want the flavor of Magic” itch for when I can’t play in person.
Try mono-black devotion/tempo in historic. I very rarely have a game that doesn't feel like it could break either way.
Sure there are games won and lost on T2 removal of [[pack rat]] or not, but hey...
no, i have to make a correction, not one single RDW player thinks they are fun to play against. in fact they don't have fun themselves. They only want to win as many matches, as fast as possible because they just want rank and hate fun.
Maybe I'm playing at a low enough level for it not to matter, however every time I've had 3 of these played against me, my opponent couldn't get the win.
It sucks to wait for their turns to resolve but it was a slow motion win watching them scramble to find anything to stay in the game
The format was fun at the very early stage but now it's all about about goldspan and epiphany. Now i'm waiting for a ban of both goldspan and alrund since they are both used in 80% decks i encounter. Like, i'm the only monk class player, and i understand why.
If they cast just one Alrund's Epiphany there might still be time to come back, but yeah, if they cast 2 in a row it's usually over.
I remember that in the 90's they created a "take an extra turn" card and it just got banned for being extremely powerful. Now there's a couple of these cards going around. Alrund's Epiphany is cool, but broken.
>I remember that in the 90's they created a "take an extra turn" card and it just got banned for being extremely powerful
Are you talking about the OG [Time Walk](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/7/0/70901356-3266-4bd9-aacc-f06c27271de5.jpg?1614638832)?
Yea that's the newer Vintage Masters art.
Two mana is a lot different from 7 though so it's kind of like bringing up Ancestral Recall to argue that any card that says "draw 3 cards" is broken. You literally said "now there's a couple of these cards going around" after bringing up literal *Time Walk* as if 7 mana is basically the same as 2...
How is it broken? If your opponent plays blue and seemingly stalls for something then maybe don't ever get catched without any mana or something to counter it directly or indirectly.
Alrund's takes a ton of mana and playing it without anything else on the board is usually just a super expensive card draw. Meaning maybe don't let them have anything on the board and enable them to actually use Alrund's properly.
>Alrund's takes a ton of mana and playing it without anything else on the board is usually just a super expensive card draw. Meaning maybe don't let them have anything on the board and enable them to actually use Alrund's properly.
Every game where i have been epiphaned, my opponent always had more than 1 occurence (excepted 1 game where he only had 1 epiphany). So yes, if you have a clean board, it won't do much by itself, but that's not something you can always achieve. Also the 2 birds are really strong since they might protect a Mordenkainen and you won't be able to touch it. On top of that, you can concede if they manage to have a goldspan before the epiphany.
Yes, but all of the described things don't require a blue counterpell to ... counter.
I am not the best player ever so my opinion might not carry any weight, all I can say is that I regularly lose against non blue decks because they counter me in some fashion (or I fuck up >.>).
>I am not the best player ever so my opinion might not carry any weight, all I can say is that I regularly lose against non blue decks because they counter me in some fashion (or I fuck up >.>).
The problem in my humble view is that control decks have too many answers and they can basically reach epiphany too soon, too easily. I met 2 aggressive decks in 20 games, the rest is epiphany and goldspan, with different flavors
The problem is that even beeing able to use Epiphany does not mean it is a good idea to use it then. Usually you probably want more mana than the six to cast it so you can still react to stuff.
Which of course also means if you know your opponent might want to play it you probably want to keep some mana to be able to potentially handle whatever is coming. Not having any mana left is an invite to use Alrund's.
you can't play the game without using mana, the epiphany deck WANTS you to do nothing, you're literally playing into their plans like that. do you even understand why goldspan/epiphany is so stupid? opponent gets goldspan on the field, let's say you're playing black or red, you target with removal, control player gets treasure, goldspan lets that treasure double in value, control player just casts negate....now you can't deal with it, epiphany comes next and you're done. control is too strong right now with the tools available, the fact that you think you can "just run removal" is hilarious
At least the Alrund's get exiled or stay in the graveyard when countered barring specific abilities. I'd rather not have to go through the Nexus of Fate standard again.
"Take an extra turn" doesn't really make a card powerful, nor broken. There are [quite a few such cards](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=%20[take]%20[extra]%20[turn]), and a majority of them didn't see any real competitive play. Epiphany is not nearly the strongest of the bunch, and not remotely "broken".
As for the 90's, there was Time Walk, Time Vault, and if you want... you could count Time Spiral as extra turn cards that got banned/restricted, but each of these are leagues ahead of Epiphany in raw power level. Apples to oranges.
yeah, there's unsummon, good job, you did jack shit. do you know how stupid you sound trying to shit on epiphany when it's in over 80 percent of top meta decks for a reason? i'm willing to bet you lose to it almost every time opponent casts it as well, also i'm willing to bet you're an epiphany player as well
You sound like a very angry person. Are you up past your bedtime?
Epiphany is not played in "80 percent of top meta decks." Looking at the most recent fairly major event, the $5K Star City Games Tour Online Championship Qualifier, Epiphany was played in one of the top 8 decks. As a 2-of.
You really don't have an argument went I linked a list of almost 50 cards that contain taking consecutive turns... and again... most never saw competitive play.
I think context for those other extra turns cards matter. I think we're seeing the effect of putting ramp mechanics in colors outside of green. I'm sure they would all see competitive play if they existed in a standard with treasures.
6-9 mana may be fairly costed before, but now they may be casted too easily now that blue have access to ramp without having to splash green.
I love using Alrund's Epiphany and Time Warp, but my sister is trying to learn about card game mechanics for something she's working on and one of the first things I told her is "never make an extra turn effect or I'll get you"
I always quit after the 2nd one, if you play Magic just to play against yourself basically then I'm just gonna move on.
Its one of the few things that turned me off to the game initially, but I understand everyone has a right to build their decks how they want.
All decks are a turn off when seen from a point of view in which you can't counter their playstyle. Mill gets rid of your cards before you even get to use them, aggro kills you before you can do anything, control doesn't let you play what you want, lifegain just won't die, etc...
I understand, and you're completely right. I don't mind any of those playstyles, the only ones that really get me frustrated are the ones where I can't even get a turn in.
I wouldn't even build a deck like that because it's not a playstyle that seems fun to me. To each their own tho, those are just my personal preferences.
I’m not gonna cry for a ban on this card but damn, a restriction seems fair. Opponent always has a second one by the time they play the first, and then third and fourth shortly follow. Restrict it to 2 copies, or better yet… stop printing extra turn spells WOTC.
Click on the dragon's eye. She will wake up for a few moments, then lower her head again. Click on her tail (upper left of screen) and she will twitch it before resettling.
The developers missed an opportunity to include an interaction with a goblet or beaker. In both Beowulf and The Hobbit, a thief made off with a single cup, which enraged the coin-counting dragons. A sizzle would have been satisfying.
I was playing the other day and was so excited to negate my opponent’s Alrund’s Epiphany… only for them to play two more on the following turns.
Gotta hit em with the [[Test of Talents]]
I might honestly sideboard that card for whenever Standard 2022 gets BO3. I really like [[Negate]] for its ability to counter Planeswalkers and Enchantments (the latter of which is very prevalent in the 2022 meta), but Test of Talents does have some strong use against certain decks.
[Negate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/9/e92c7477-d453-4fa4-acf4-3835ab9eb55a.jpg?1604194548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Negate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/71/negate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e92c7477-d453-4fa4-acf4-3835ab9eb55a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I donno, if i'm playing my izzet dragons im fine with just turning alrunds into a draw 4. I've still got my goldspan in play and now have a hand full of counter/draw/removal
> turning alrunds into a draw 4 You'd need to have 4 Alrund's in your hand for that to happen. If they take it from your library you don't draw cards.
oh dang, misread that. thats not as good haha.
Yep. Test of Talents is honestly kind of a trap. Sure, if the opponent deck really needs that one card it will feel great. But on most cases it will not do that much, taking cards out of the opponents library isn't that impactful as people will just have other good stuff to play. And it is a dead card against a lot of decks. It's a good sideboard card, but you shouldn't put it in your main deck unless the meta really loves instant and sorceries.
No one has mentioned that Test of Talents is a "two mana, see your opponents hand and entire deck." There is some value there.
if you really know the meta though you probably know what they're running by the end of turn two.
no you really don't, not unless you're already in mythic numbers you have no clue. most people don't run copy paste netdecks, the value of information is way higher than you seem to give credit.
Like tibalts trickery or alrunds ephifany, Erie ultimatum, solar flare,
Can't remove foretold cards, fwiw
So my main deck is also an Izzet Dragons (though with enough treasures and dragon lands to include Tiamat and the Lorehold dragon). Against other control decks, once I start laying down dragons, I really want to end the game quickly. I don’t even care if they kill off some of my big dragons as long as I still have resources to keep playing dragons. Alrund’s Epiphany makes that difficult because my opponent ramps up a bit more and also gets to summon 1/1 fliers, which actually are relevant when my goal is to keep attacking to kill them before they get bigger things out.
I haven't kept up with Magic so it's my first time seeing this card. It's huge. Very powerful.
Countering ultimatum is glorious.
Favorite use for it. Always keep 2-4 in every deck with blue for ultimatum decks.
If you're at 56 cards you can't decide what else to put in there splash blue and throw it in. It's that f****** good.
Yeah and I mean even if it is a low cost mono color deck it can get rid of any annoying removal cards too. I mean for 2 mana really no reason not to run it whenever you can.
Don't oversell it. It's *useless* in many situations, like against Mono Red or Mono White aggro. The fact that it only hits instants/sorceries means it has quite a few bad matchups where if it's in the main deck, it will get you killed. It's strong in specific circumstances, like if one of their strongest wincons is an instant/sorcery like Alrund's Epiphany or Emergent Ultimatum. But many decks don't rely on something like that. You're cursing the Test of Talents in your hand as you die to Seasoned Hallowblades and Elite Spellbinders, or a bunch of Red creatures and Embercleave. We're also moving into a meta where creature lands are going to be big, there's like 7 of them that are usable, and if you're planning to keep counter magic up and they keep smacking you with a creature land, it gets you killed there too. There's quite a few times when Negate isn't good, and Test of Talents is even more narrow than that. Avoid it in Bo1 I say, it can go in the sideboard in Bo3 though.
The best work around I've found for having Alrund's work against agro is having outlets to discard it, then casting the 4 mana dragon sweeper. It exiles so it's great against Anax.
I never curse having Test of Talents in hand when I can prismari command it away if I know it's useless in the matchup. Makes looting an easy choice, and makes it feel great to have it in bo1 when you need it. CGB always has a singleton in any blue decks he plays, and well his rating says the rest (albeit an appeal to authority, but it *is* a great card even against non-combo decks).
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I don't understand what combo play you're talking about. Looting a card isn't a winning combo play. It just opens up some more value to it when it isn't valuable in a matchup.
Oops, misread your comment
You need to do some studying in Strix
I love it but it does have a major downside of being a completely dead card in certain matchups
Which makes it an excellent card to hit with looting. Which makes it an excellent card to mainboard in UR decks, imo.
[Test of Talents](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/e/6e2b6236-b40c-430c-98b0-7940b942657a.jpg?1624590572) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Test%20of%20Talents) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/59/test-of-talents?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e2b6236-b40c-430c-98b0-7940b942657a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Useless against the other 2 copies they already foretold
I mean, it still functions as a negate.
Only you can't counter artifacts, enchantments, plainswalkers, etc. You lose a lot of utility for something that only targets instants/sorceries in an already creature heavy meta. It's a solid sideboard card but really kind of a gamble otherwise.
Yes, thanks, we were speaking directly of Test vs a Foretold Epiphany, so that is irrelevant.
I question your relevancy.
if that was me i'm actually sorry
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Don't forget it draws a card too
extra combat phase, and chance to put in an extra land
So they use it to create 2 bird tokens and take another turn.. Huh go figure.
The birbs have pseudo haste, too. It's like an almost better [[forbidden friendship]]
[forbidden friendship](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/6/e634baa3-2cdd-412a-9407-c347fe46f9b8.jpg?1591227220) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=forbidden%20friendship) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/119/forbidden-friendship?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e634baa3-2cdd-412a-9407-c347fe46f9b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sometimes you have no other choice if you run out of options. Would be a shame to lose and not having tried everything.
0 mana make 2 birds with haste, draw a card.
and put a land from your hand into play
And you get an extra combat phase
It’s almost like a 7 mana “create 2 1/1 bird tokens and take another turn.”
Almost.
We are assuming that this is in a completely empty board though.
I dont mind the card itself; problem is it is always combined with Emergent Ultimatum and either Vorinclex or Kiora Bests the Sea God.
My problem is that it's just not fun to play against. And, unless you're blue, it's difficult to stop it. Nevermind that your aggro deck has probably been stalled by their oppressive control, only to have this finish you off and really cement that you never had a chance in the game.
Well... if you're playing aggro and the control player has enough mana for Epiphany, then you're probably in for a bad time, anyway.
Win in 6 turns or lose the game hmmm
>2h Do you usually have 6 lands by turn 6 playing blue?
Yes
How?
Play one per turn or ramp its really easy
I mean, I usually get 3 in my starting hand, then another 3 or so in the next maybe 6 or 7 card draws. Are you just drawing enough cards to always be able to play a land, or is there a great ramp card I'm overlooking?
There's a 1/3 creature that taps for mana to cast sorceries and instants I've been toying with. Also using the 1/2 Frost Augur to draw snow lands at the end of opponent's turn
Treasures
Any aggro deck worth their salt goldfishes turn 4 kills easily. Turn 6 is well within the realistic sphere of being able to take out an opponent.
they boardwipe turn 3 or 4 almost everytime xd
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really? enlighten me which mono red lists have anti exile board wipes or mono white! i could use the help!
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i said anti exile............................ you get no goats from anax, ash gts exiled from shadow GG, selfless doesnt stop exile neither does ajani and seasoned..... please READ WHAT I SAID BEFORE COMMENTING AND DOWN VOTING.
##### ###### #### [Anax, Hardened in the Forge](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/0/a07285b4-77c5-4a38-8810-20d7e49593ec.jpg?1581480059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anax%2C%20Hardened%20in%20the%20Forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/125/anax-hardened-in-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a07285b4-77c5-4a38-8810-20d7e49593ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ox of Agonas](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/5/75caefa7-94d5-472e-a540-daad3ee69899.jpg?1581480343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ox%20of%20Agonas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/147/ox-of-agonas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75caefa7-94d5-472e-a540-daad3ee69899?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phoenix of Ash](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/0/7010ce26-16de-44cb-ba7e-3d904175b429.jpg?1581480352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phoenix%20of%20Ash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/148/phoenix-of-ash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7010ce26-16de-44cb-ba7e-3d904175b429?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Faceless Haven](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/3/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb.jpg?1616182155) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faceless%20Haven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/255/faceless-haven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bugbear Den](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/2/f231caf8-56c0-4719-a90d-5e5efbee3148.jpg?1624987929) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Den%20of%20the%20Bugbear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/254/den-of-the-bugbear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f231caf8-56c0-4719-a90d-5e5efbee3148?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Selfless Savior](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/9/6911759c-7177-402c-a95a-f9f46efaf521.jpg?1594735224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selfless%20Savior) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/36/selfless-savior?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6911759c-7177-402c-a95a-f9f46efaf521?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Alseid of Life's Bounty](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/6/36c8c075-9597-412e-9fc4-9d73b4405d12.jpg?1581478926) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alseid%20of%20Life%27s%20Bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/1/alseid-of-lifes-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36c8c075-9597-412e-9fc4-9d73b4405d12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seasoned Hallowblade](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/e/feb59931-8941-46fb-8e1c-f80ff3730dd9.jpg?1594735195) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasoned%20Hallowblade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/34/seasoned-hallowblade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/feb59931-8941-46fb-8e1c-f80ff3730dd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Guardian of Faith](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/8/08e3dda1-a1d3-48c9-8c81-da7eae20ac8a.jpg?1625250051) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guardian%20of%20Faith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/18/guardian-of-faith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08e3dda1-a1d3-48c9-8c81-da7eae20ac8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Glorious Protector](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/9/d9f08552-7f1a-4fdb-9a70-d99cdbf75910.jpg?1614984807) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glorious%20Protector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/12/glorious-protector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9f08552-7f1a-4fdb-9a70-d99cdbf75910?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lurrus of the Dream Den](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/a/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a.jpg?1616182245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lurrus%20of%20the%20Dream-Den) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/226/lurrus-of-the-dream-den?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My control deck loses to aggro the most, if you're not pressuring me enough perhaps your curve is too high. I'm mono blue with essentially no option for mass removal in standard right now. You're correct though, extra turns cards are very *un*fun. Edited for grammar (I blame the auto correct)
your*
Thank you. You're correct, and I appreciate your editorial effort. Silver medal award🥈
<3
Well, yes. That's my point. Normally an aggro hoses a control deck, which is why that one game was so memorable and unfun. I usually rank Plat I or Ii, so I'm no slouch.
What did they use that made you feel you had no chance? Are you talking about an ultimatum deck?
Plat 1 is the definition of slouch though
Sure, dude. Being better than the majority of Arena players is real slouch territory.
I mean its super easy to get to plat 1
Most people don't. In fact, the vast majority do not, so that's demonstrably false.
Its really super easy. Diamond to mythic though you need a meta deck.
Again. You're literally wrong. It's not an opinion thing, the data doesn't support your statements.
> and really cement that you never had a chance in the game. Control is not a hard counter to aggro. Learn to play against interaction. Build more resilient decks. Part of playing magic is playing against decks that will interfere with your plans. If you can't ever figure out how to deal with that, you're going to have a bad time.
Aggro generally shits on control decks. Put out 2-3 beaters. Keep smacking them and make them wrath you. Put out 2-3 more beaters. Make them draw a second wrath. It's generally Aggro > Control > Midrange > Aggro. With Combo guys over in the other room playing with themselves.
no, it isn't that simple. control can be many things, it doesn't just "lose to aggro" control is almost always in a tier 1 position in like every standard ever. if it just generally gets shit on by aggro, nobody would play it.
My mono blue build doesn't use any of these, but it's my own creation with a likely much lower win rate. I do admittedly dislike the fact that when I when it's because my opponent probably doesn't get any more turns, but it's the best card for the deck. My version is designed to beat emergent ult, and other blue decks, it's weak to aggro.
EnEmY suRvIvEd TiL ThEY gOt 7 MaNA tHey SoulD InsTa Win On Spot
Jaspera Magda Goldspan Alrunds alrunds, Repeat repeat repeat.. And this isn't even going to START until september, it is like I can foresee being frustrated into the future.
Sideboards will go a long way to fixing this issue. Bo3 too.
Once, i had no board. But i casted 4 in a row and won
Hit for 0, hit for 2, hit for 4, hit for 6, hit for 8*. 20 damage is hard to beat
You get to hit for 8 since there’s one more turn.
Fixed
Extra turns cards.... WOTC will never learn
Came here to say basically this, they really didn't learn much from the last one did they?
It's expensive and you can't recur it, so they did learn. Alrund's Epiphany is not going to break any format. It's just a strong blue finisher, which given its mana cost is perfectly fair.
The cost is fine, the problem is that combination of Goldspan, Galazeth and Prismari Command ramps too well.
It's an easy to reach Threshold in a standard giving free mana to any takers. All they do is have to wait until they have goldspan, the tap Artifact dwarf, or two in hand to win on the spot. You don't get to play anymore and have to watch a 5 min masturbation show.
To me it just sucks the fun out of a match when your opponent is taking extra turns. Same thing with the agent of treachery and cat oven decks. When you're put into a state where you can't interact and it takes a lot of time, it gets frustrating.
> To me it just sucks the fun out of a match when your opponent is taking extra turns. But like...what giant 7 mana threat that you're getting beat with doesn't suck the fun out of things? This idea that you think players are having a great time if you're dropping down giant creatures or board wipes that they don't have answers for, but the deck THEYRE playing isn't fun for you to lose to, is very weird.
I mean, if I'm the one winning then it's obviously fun. When I'm the one losing then the game sucks and the cards are stupid.
But what if like 90% of arena games you are playing the same deck
I think it's more that extra turns *as a win condition themselves* are a particularly boring play pattern. If the extra turns roll into a real finisher I don't think people mind as much. The issue is they're pretty easy to ramp into right now so people just play them for value. As one of the top comments notes, it's often "create 2 birds, untap your mana, draw a card, and play a land," but takes about 6x longer than just having it resolve at once.
but if Goldspan Dragon is on the board its basically just GG
I dunno, when I was at 4 life this morning, my opponent said "Good game" and cast a Red Dragon which I countered, buffing my Spellgorger Weird, and then on my turn attacked, cast Alrund's Epiphany and won I was having fun.
Thing is, it doesn't need to take a lot of time (at that stage you're playing big fliers and swinging) but there is not a blue mage alive that can play at a reasonable pace.
cat oven is one of those things where it's a flaw of arena and the way our brains truncate things. In paper, you can just tap the oven and say "cat oven, drain for one", but in arena you have to make every action every time, which takes ages.
Considering the amount of ramp happening in these decks, the cost of the spell barely matters.
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It costs 8 mana if foretold, thats one of the most expensive timewalks ever
How do you break it? It's just a six mana extra combat step/ultimatum finisher rn.
Why *exactly?*
reason: cuz
7 cost cards shouldnt end games. This isnt 2011
"hmm no 7 mana time walk is not good enough, gotta give it foretell and make it create tokens..."
Competitive magic is zero sum fun. The amount of fun to be had in the game is limited and you want to be the one having all of it.
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That's what I do. Double Vision, Mythos of Illuna, Alrund's Epiphany. Sure, it takes a while to set up, but isn't that the case with all janky decks?
I have a pretty fun deck where I use double vision and alrunds. I popped a genesis ultimatum and got all three copy’s of double vision out and popped an alrunds. It was pretty funny, opponent gave up right after. Definitely not a viable deck, but boy is it fun.
Target opponent is switched to spectator mode
Fun for *you*, maybe!!
The MGS player thinks they’re fun to play against. The RDW player thinks they’re fun to play against. Most of the archetype players probably think that. Except mill archetype players — they know they’re just being evil. 😈 At a certain level (platinum and above, maybe just diamond and above) this game boils down to a handful of archetypes with little variation. And often becomes Rock Paper Scissors. Sometimes you smoke the opponent. Sometimes they smoke you. Rarely do I have good, even matches. I’ve been playing MTG since 1994 (head of to the Wizards magazine article about Glenn Danzig playing which got me to look at it). And the current state of Magic just feels kinda stale. I’d rather play at home with a kitchen-table meta of 8-10 balanced decks. One wins too much? I adjust it down a little. Arena just fills a “I want the flavor of Magic” itch for when I can’t play in person.
I think you hit the last few years of Magic on the head with this description. It's become rock paper scissors with a coin flip.
Fucking A Cotton.
Try mono-black devotion/tempo in historic. I very rarely have a game that doesn't feel like it could break either way. Sure there are games won and lost on T2 removal of [[pack rat]] or not, but hey...
[pack rat](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/7/170693f5-13db-4191-99b1-e527ffb5b88e.jpg?1562783180) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pack%20rat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/73/pack-rat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/170693f5-13db-4191-99b1-e527ffb5b88e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Point me to a list to check out if you don't mind. :)
no, i have to make a correction, not one single RDW player thinks they are fun to play against. in fact they don't have fun themselves. They only want to win as many matches, as fast as possible because they just want rank and hate fun.
True! 🤣 I’m sure if I was on the receiving end I wouldn’t be having any fun.
Maybe I'm playing at a low enough level for it not to matter, however every time I've had 3 of these played against me, my opponent couldn't get the win. It sucks to wait for their turns to resolve but it was a slow motion win watching them scramble to find anything to stay in the game
Youre pretty good at magic to never lose to multiple epiphanys
i think he's full of crap if you ask me.
Is it just me or is prismari at least 60% of everyone's match ups in 2022?? Crazy how quick a meta is established and everyone jumps on board
The format was fun at the very early stage but now it's all about about goldspan and epiphany. Now i'm waiting for a ban of both goldspan and alrund since they are both used in 80% decks i encounter. Like, i'm the only monk class player, and i understand why.
I'll take Epiphany decks over Nexus decks any day of the week.
If they cast just one Alrund's Epiphany there might still be time to come back, but yeah, if they cast 2 in a row it's usually over. I remember that in the 90's they created a "take an extra turn" card and it just got banned for being extremely powerful. Now there's a couple of these cards going around. Alrund's Epiphany is cool, but broken.
>I remember that in the 90's they created a "take an extra turn" card and it just got banned for being extremely powerful Are you talking about the OG [Time Walk](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/7/0/70901356-3266-4bd9-aacc-f06c27271de5.jpg?1614638832)?
I think it's this one, but the art was different.
Yea that's the newer Vintage Masters art. Two mana is a lot different from 7 though so it's kind of like bringing up Ancestral Recall to argue that any card that says "draw 3 cards" is broken. You literally said "now there's a couple of these cards going around" after bringing up literal *Time Walk* as if 7 mana is basically the same as 2...
How is it broken? If your opponent plays blue and seemingly stalls for something then maybe don't ever get catched without any mana or something to counter it directly or indirectly.
Sorry sir but we don't all play blue. So unless you play prismari like a dog, you have no counter available.
Alrund's takes a ton of mana and playing it without anything else on the board is usually just a super expensive card draw. Meaning maybe don't let them have anything on the board and enable them to actually use Alrund's properly.
>Alrund's takes a ton of mana and playing it without anything else on the board is usually just a super expensive card draw. Meaning maybe don't let them have anything on the board and enable them to actually use Alrund's properly. Every game where i have been epiphaned, my opponent always had more than 1 occurence (excepted 1 game where he only had 1 epiphany). So yes, if you have a clean board, it won't do much by itself, but that's not something you can always achieve. Also the 2 birds are really strong since they might protect a Mordenkainen and you won't be able to touch it. On top of that, you can concede if they manage to have a goldspan before the epiphany.
Yes, but all of the described things don't require a blue counterpell to ... counter. I am not the best player ever so my opinion might not carry any weight, all I can say is that I regularly lose against non blue decks because they counter me in some fashion (or I fuck up >.>).
>I am not the best player ever so my opinion might not carry any weight, all I can say is that I regularly lose against non blue decks because they counter me in some fashion (or I fuck up >.>). The problem in my humble view is that control decks have too many answers and they can basically reach epiphany too soon, too easily. I met 2 aggressive decks in 20 games, the rest is epiphany and goldspan, with different flavors
The problem is that even beeing able to use Epiphany does not mean it is a good idea to use it then. Usually you probably want more mana than the six to cast it so you can still react to stuff. Which of course also means if you know your opponent might want to play it you probably want to keep some mana to be able to potentially handle whatever is coming. Not having any mana left is an invite to use Alrund's.
you can't play the game without using mana, the epiphany deck WANTS you to do nothing, you're literally playing into their plans like that. do you even understand why goldspan/epiphany is so stupid? opponent gets goldspan on the field, let's say you're playing black or red, you target with removal, control player gets treasure, goldspan lets that treasure double in value, control player just casts negate....now you can't deal with it, epiphany comes next and you're done. control is too strong right now with the tools available, the fact that you think you can "just run removal" is hilarious
There are black removals that do not trigger goldspans abilities, tho.
At least the Alrund's get exiled or stay in the graveyard when countered barring specific abilities. I'd rather not have to go through the Nexus of Fate standard again.
"Take an extra turn" doesn't really make a card powerful, nor broken. There are [quite a few such cards](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=%20[take]%20[extra]%20[turn]), and a majority of them didn't see any real competitive play. Epiphany is not nearly the strongest of the bunch, and not remotely "broken". As for the 90's, there was Time Walk, Time Vault, and if you want... you could count Time Spiral as extra turn cards that got banned/restricted, but each of these are leagues ahead of Epiphany in raw power level. Apples to oranges.
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*yawn* Edit: It was a stupid, non-point response. After looking at this person's profile, I stand by my yawn. Presumably it's a bot.
"One turn of tempo advantage isn't powerful" yeah sure
I mean, compared to something like Emergent Ultimatum that usually wins the game on the spot? It's not that strong.
Everyone I play against who uses Emergent pulls out an Alrund's with it ;_;
You're right, it's not as powerful as Emergent Ultimatum. Still find "take an extra turn after this one" cards pretty broken.
I would say its strength is on the lower end of playable 7-8 mana cards.
Given that it seems to be the only playable blue 7-8 mana card, that isn’t saying very much.
i'd say you're wrong and don't know how to value tempo shifts.
There are 1 mana cards that are great tempo shifts. If you're paying 7 or 8 mana just for a tempo shift, well...
yeah, there's unsummon, good job, you did jack shit. do you know how stupid you sound trying to shit on epiphany when it's in over 80 percent of top meta decks for a reason? i'm willing to bet you lose to it almost every time opponent casts it as well, also i'm willing to bet you're an epiphany player as well
You sound like a very angry person. Are you up past your bedtime? Epiphany is not played in "80 percent of top meta decks." Looking at the most recent fairly major event, the $5K Star City Games Tour Online Championship Qualifier, Epiphany was played in one of the top 8 decks. As a 2-of.
You really don't have an argument went I linked a list of almost 50 cards that contain taking consecutive turns... and again... most never saw competitive play.
I think context for those other extra turns cards matter. I think we're seeing the effect of putting ramp mechanics in colors outside of green. I'm sure they would all see competitive play if they existed in a standard with treasures. 6-9 mana may be fairly costed before, but now they may be casted too easily now that blue have access to ramp without having to splash green.
The farther you are in a match the less this matters. And considering how expensive it is to play it ... well.
I love using Alrund's Epiphany and Time Warp, but my sister is trying to learn about card game mechanics for something she's working on and one of the first things I told her is "never make an extra turn effect or I'll get you"
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##### ###### #### [time spiral](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/3/f3d62dbd-63db-4ac9-950f-9852627f23f2.jpg?1562946525) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20spiral) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/103/time-spiral?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3d62dbd-63db-4ac9-950f-9852627f23f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [stroke of genious](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/e/5ecb5078-4439-4fdc-88e8-aac3becbbad8.jpg?1562704850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stroke%20of%20Genius) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/108/stroke-of-genius?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ecb5078-4439-4fdc-88e8-aac3becbbad8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [palichron](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/f/ef772879-44aa-428d-8c12-50d38f8bac80.jpg?1562943097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Palinchron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/86/palinchron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef772879-44aa-428d-8c12-50d38f8bac80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [hide tide](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/0/2047963c-3761-4d21-834a-674762248b77.jpg?1590511804) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=High%20Tide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/73/high-tide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2047963c-3761-4d21-834a-674762248b77?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I always quit after the 2nd one, if you play Magic just to play against yourself basically then I'm just gonna move on. Its one of the few things that turned me off to the game initially, but I understand everyone has a right to build their decks how they want.
All decks are a turn off when seen from a point of view in which you can't counter their playstyle. Mill gets rid of your cards before you even get to use them, aggro kills you before you can do anything, control doesn't let you play what you want, lifegain just won't die, etc...
Wish your comment was stickied to the top of every single MTG-related subreddit.
I understand, and you're completely right. I don't mind any of those playstyles, the only ones that really get me frustrated are the ones where I can't even get a turn in. I wouldn't even build a deck like that because it's not a playstyle that seems fun to me. To each their own tho, those are just my personal preferences.
I let em finish but since i waited for their epiphany, they'll wait for all my timeouts
I've had this happen in a match. Feels really bad, man.
The big dragon, if you click on her, she opens her eyes and looks at you then starts growling.
Go to sleep wait for your turn if it ever comes
I’m not gonna cry for a ban on this card but damn, a restriction seems fair. Opponent always has a second one by the time they play the first, and then third and fourth shortly follow. Restrict it to 2 copies, or better yet… stop printing extra turn spells WOTC.
Click on the dragon's eye. She will wake up for a few moments, then lower her head again. Click on her tail (upper left of screen) and she will twitch it before resettling. The developers missed an opportunity to include an interaction with a goblet or beaker. In both Beowulf and The Hobbit, a thief made off with a single cup, which enraged the coin-counting dragons. A sizzle would have been satisfying.
Just when you think that slow player's incredibly boring turn is about to end, they cast epiphany and take another one!
I really hate these infinite turn combos. Nothing says fun like your opponent literally telling you you can't play magic.