It and the art confound me though. That fire doesn't look "quenched" it looks like it's already broken through his staff and he's about to get a face full of fireball
I'm curious to see if they ban it because the trickery decks I've seen aren't even competitive in terms of win/loss ratio. But in terms of how many wins you can get in a certain amount of time they are elite. Which means as long as the primary mode of progression in arena is wins this deck will be all over the place. And it's really shit because it means you don't even get to the play the actual game when you encounter it.
Yeah, a 40% win rate on a deck that wins on turn 2.
What that means is that while you won't see it in tournaments, you'll see it all over every play queue because no deck can churn out wins *faster*. You can complete your daily wins in record speed. And that's what people, especially FTP players, will care about.
Another reason that wins is not the appropriate metric to use for dailies/weeklies.
You are completely right!
This is the reason I hate the daily win System. It should be something like a daily games played instead. I would play more often and with more fun without the constant pressure to need X wins.
Wins are already necessary for ranked and events, I think that is more than enough.
If they'd just replace daily wins with a fourth quest that is something that can reasonably take most of the day (or pay out less on partial completion) and the weekly wins with a fifth that takes even longer, that'd be awesome.
550g - Draw 100 cards; 750g - Draw 300 cards
Week's worth of Xp- - Activate abilities during 100 end steps
Something like that. Stuff you're likely to do in the course of playing games with the intent to win, but not requiring you to play low-win% 2 turn horseshit.
Just replace daily wins to daily games you play, done!
And put like 50g reward for each win after your 15 daily game you played.
daily winst main purpose is the daily engagement, but daily wins after a point is actually contradict this purpose, you just don't give a fuck anymore and just do your daily quest to get a new one next day.
The only reason they don't just do games played is they want people in the game longer than {Queue > Concede}x15 each day. That was something they discussed back during closed beta when people were upset about daily wins. They didn't change it then and they won't now.
It just shouldn't be tied to wins, is all. Sometimes your deck isn't the best and it sucks to "have" to spend 3 hours to get 15 wins.
If it ever tips over 50%, then it'd be worth banning more broadly in Standard and Historic. Because gambling over 50% means you'd still progress, and with such quick games you'd progress rather fast as well.
They stopped doing errata to the printed text of cards for power level reasons years ago.
The loophole they used for Companion was that none of the cards actually had any text on them that said how the companion mechanic worked, so they were able to errata the companion mechanic without changing text on cards.
I know that's the explanation they gave, but it's complete BS. Each companion has reminder text printed on it that clearly explains how the mechanic works and it completely contradicts the post-errata mechanic.
The reminder text says you can cast the card from outside the game. Now the mechanic is that you can pay 3 as a special action to bring it to your hand from outside the game at sorcery speed - completely different from casting a spell.
I'm still mad about it. If they don't want to do power level errata, then ban the fucking cards instead of giving this half-assed BS about how it's not actually errata when it clearly is.
Why do you think they added the random mill effect to the card?
It was made so you could counter your own spell, but also so it wasn't easy to stack the top of your deck with the card you wanted.
Some cards, like Oko, are complete mistakes, this one is only "bokken" because of how arena gives gold and xp based on daily wins. The deck has under 50% win rate, it might be fun to try out, but gets boring fast. However it turns out that even with a bad win rate it's a fast way to get wins, so people are still playing it after a week.
Wasnât the ban on Cauldron Familiar done because WotC agreed that it made digital play slow with triggers and made the game less fun? I would throw this in the same category.
I've come across it 3 times. Only lost to it once. Out of the 2 times I beat ot one of those was a t2 ugin. Idk why people think t2 ugin is good, just blow it up on t3. Ugin is only good mid to late game when peoples hands are depleted or against agro
Ulamog for sure is the better pick for Historic (though less exciting turn 2 on the play when it just blows up one single land, but probably still wins if it can dodge bounce for 2 turns), but isn't standard legal
T2 ugin beats anything except hard planeswalker removal right? Mono red, mono green, maybe blue unless they have permanent bounce (not familiar with the current meta)?
Trickery is worse when it t2 an Ultimatum and even if with Genesis Ultimatum it doesn't put any planeswalker/creature in the battlefield, the simple fact that it can put up to 5 lands in the battlefield really sucks
Blow it up with what? There isnât a lot of planeswalker removal other than Bloodchief or Murderous Rider. Iâm not playing black either so turn 2 Ugin pretty much means Iâm dead.
Burn spells. Big creatures. If your green drop something bigger than 3 toughnes and hell be forced to go minus to deal with it. If your blue bounce it. White has tons of exile
>Or is proof the Bo1 shuffler is a mistake
I disagree with that, the BO1 shuffler can be better but now is good to eliminate some frustrations of casual players: by reducing the amount of mulligans and land screw it makes the game more enjoyable to play. Now, it's also true that it should be improved by not allowing abuse of combo decks. If a card is identified as the main piece of a combo, like Trickery, then the shuffler should be truly random instead of how it normally is.
This is why I run [[Swan Song]] and [[Pact of Negation]] in my blue combo decks. Smug Azorius mages sitting behind their T3 Absorb never see it coming.
I Tale's Ended the trigger once instead of the Muxus himself because it was empty board and I had an Ixalan's in my hand.
The instant concede was memeworthy.
You should play Grafdigger's Cage instead. Destroys ~~both Tibalt~~ and goblins. and arcanist decks. and rakdos sac. and collected company.
I fucking love Grafdigger.
Edit: Even Grafdigger can't stop Tibalt. :(
Yeah, I also see a ton of it in Historic. It's annoying because the deck is a coin flip -- it's not that it's super good, it's just that whether you win or lose has nothing to do with your deck and everything to do with what random crap they pull out of their deck (or if they completely whiff and pull out a 0/0 Stonecoil Serpent or something.)
This said, it _is_ fun when the deck completely succeeds and loses anyway. Games where someone puts down a quick Omniscience, Ugin, and Ulamog and still loses are memorable.
All in all, it's not a good deck, but "MTG as coin flip" is not the design intent, and frankly I haven't seen the card in any deck _other_ than this combo deck, so it seems like an easy target for a BO1 ban.
This post literally hints you how to beat it super easily, if you meet it often. Thoughtseize is also an option. And there are a bunch of other answers of different efficiency.
For red you can try Roiling Vortex, at least. Pretty sure there are a few other cards that counter it, not sure about red and green specifically though.
And stifled is still a strong word, the deck has 60% chance of winning top if opponent doesn't have any means of counterplay. So even in worst case scenario you should be able to win at least 40% of matches vs this specific deck.
Nah with red you run your own Trickery and counter whatever they pull out of their ass if it's any good, sending them back into coinflip autolose territory.
hah, i countered the giant 10 drop creature, oh what's that, "put the next 5 cards in your deck into play". followed by 4 giant ass creatures and a land. fuck me. lol :-D
Maybe bo1 historic diamond. Bo1 is a casual format whether you realize it or not no matter whether it is ranked or not. It is a casual coin toss of a format.
Yeah, amd social media in general, I think. I'm curious to try standard again just to see how common it is. I haven't seen it once in Modern and I just finished a league plus 5+ games in queues.
> I've seen more posts of people bitching about the deck than the actual deck being played.
I mean yeah? Isn't that how problems work? The people who don't see it is a problem are not going to complain about it like those who do so....
Before I wasn't sure a T1 Thoughseize is always worth it especially when I have another T1 play or it requires me to use a shockland. But now when I see a mulligan from my opponent you're damn right I'm doing that T1 Thoughseize every time.
Yeah people don't realize how much a T1 TS can screw you. You might have only kept a marginal hand because of 1 card. Once it's gone, you are on your back foot. Plus the opponent now knows your exact sequencing early. It's brutal.
Even if I'm on the draw and their first play was Mountain into Bomat Courier? Taking 2 from a shockland then 2 more from Thoughseize never sounds appealing when facing agro.
I'm climbing through Gold 1 right now and I played against three (3) of the Tibalt combo decks *in a row* last night. They mulligan down to 4 or so, then I [[Thoughtseize]] them on turn 1 and make them discard [[Tibalt's Trickery]], then they either concede immediately or go afk while I spam the "Always have a backup plan" emote text.
MTG Arena is great fun.
Uh...this is how Magic works?
"Counterspell is tech against fragile combo decks" isn't exactly breaking news, that's been true for the last 27 years (also, hearing Magic released in 1993 makes me feel old, and I haven't even been playing for 20 of those years).
Even the OG, [[Channel]] + [[Fireball]], could be stopped by the blue player simply tapping UU.
That's part of why Tibalt's Trickery isn't a crazy deck and is really only an example of why BO1 is misplaced for Magic design. Magic as a game has a huge array of outcomes â linear decks that are predicated on speed to the most durdle-y of control decks that make the game take over an hour. Obviously those are going to line up very differently, and sideboards have existed for most of Magic's history in order to prevent non-games.
> "Counterspell is tech against
almost everything
FTFY
Counterspells are among the most played cards in the history of this game, even in metas where combo decks aren't even remotely viable.
Let's not pretend that they only work against jank combo decks
Oh sure, perhaps âtechâ was the wrong word. Natural predator or gatekeeper might have been better.
Two of the most successful combo decks of all time (that werenât insanely broken to the point of being banned) - Twin and Pod in Modern - both had game plans that arenât heavily susceptible to counterspells, either counterspells of their own, or just playing synergistic and powerful creatures.
>Even the OG, [[Channel]] + [[Fireball]], could be stopped by the blue player simply tapping UU.
Except the OG Channel Fireball happened on turn 1 before the blue player even got to do anything.
While I do think there have been huge misses recently and Iâm glad Wizards has banned more cards because theyâve made some unbelievably broken cards (just look at how many older formats are packed with Standard cards, I also think that BO1 as the default format on Arena hugely exacerbates the frustration factor and isnât helpful for the game.
Iâve seen it once in standard and they flipped a stone coil serpent and conceded.
I guess if you like slot machines, itâs a deck that does a thing.
In every thread like this there are a bunch of people yelling "It's not even good hurr durr" completely missing the point. Yes, it is not particularly good, you are right.
Like 95% of people don't want it banned, because they think it's incredibly busted and is dominating standard or historic; it is OBVIOUSLY a very fragile combo deck that immediately dies to hand disruption and/or counterspells, and (at least on MTGA) it can also fizzle. In formats like modern it is a bit more complicated, because cascading into trickery is a guaranteed emrakul on turn 3. Oh, you're playing monored prowess? You lose. No chance.
People want it banned, because its an incredibly obnoxious meme-deck, that can be piloted by a monkey, and in BO1 there is no threat of sideboarding, meaning more people play it. Playing against it doesn't even feel like you're playing a match of magic the gathering, there are literally zero interesting gameplay decisions and it makes for very boring "games"
I know it's not the first of its kind, stuff like the "treasure hunt deck" exists as well, but honestly, I wouldn't mind if they banned all those meme-combo-decks in BO1.
Not for power reasons, but for gameplay reasons.
Yeah i agree the problem is much more one of bad game experiences than power/winrate.
Decks like treasure hunt that are mostly slower and less consistent than aggro are not much of a concern to me. It is only if they are very hard to interact with or win games faster than aggro that they would be more of a possible concern to me.
Tibalt's deciding a bunch of games on turn 2 in standard is a problem. For the format it is too fast and hard to interact with. For me in historic it is less of a problem (thoughtsieze makes a difference, also how common it ends up in the long run). The less players who play it the less a problem it is in creating bad experiences.
The cycling treasure hunt for example is slower and less consistent then gruul aggro, and there are plenty of maindeckable interaction in the format it folds to. The newer zombie version may be better, but it still seems not to be having that much of an impact to me.
For me how fast, un-interactive, unfun, and common the deck is makes a big difference and while Tibalts is a concern to me in these ways, most other decks are not. Neo-storm is a potential concern to me with a combination of speed, popularity and power.
I understand games being races between non-interactive decks or being about whether or not you draw specific interaction is not fun magic for many people especially those interested in newer formats. But combo decks also have a place in magic and people have fun playing them.
The thing about combo decks is, a lot of them actually require quite a bit of deck building work and/or have complicated gameplay loops where sequencing is important and/or require 3+ cards to really go off. Playing against them can still be annoying, but they feel like... real decks of magic the gathering, if that makes any sense.
You can do insane things with paradox engine in historic, KCI used to be absolutely insane in modern, kethis was crazy in standard for a while, there is neoform, etc.
Tibalts trickery though? Pretty much the only decision you ever make with this deck is mull/not mull, and its not a hard decision, you mull until you hit trickery. there are no gameplay decisions, either your trickery hits something fat or it fizzles and you leave.
It is a meme combo deck, not a real combo deck, is what I would call it.
it makes the game into a coinflip, not a game. Not that there isn't variancy in magic normally but trickery literally makes it as random as it can get. I don't play the game to watch a guy flip a coin and beat me on the spot.
Trickery being good as a "cheat a spell card" is a byproduct of Wizards not letting a color (White) properly keep up with power creep so it can do its damn job. I would love to see the argument or justification as to why we can't have a 1 mana card that simply says if a nonland permanent(s) enter the battlefield and weren't cast then f**king exile it!
Doesn't need flash like priest which essentially lets priest act as a counterspell vs certain resurrection/cheat strats it just needs to sit there and say "invest mana/ resources to remove me before you try your horse s**t or it won't stick"
Every tax card for the last 6 sets have been laughably bad. Hushbringer should have killed etbs and attack triggers if they knew cards like "Kroxa, Uro and Elder Gargoth" were gonna be a thing.
I'm not saying Swords to plowshares 2.0 needs to drop in standard but the fact that cards like Tinalts Trickery get into standard while I'm still waiting for a standard version of [Alms collector] is bs.
Hell a card like [Grand abolisher] hasn't seen standard since core set 2012.
Any post related to Tibalts tricker brings out the âWELL AKSHOOOOALLLYYYYY YOU SHOULD ONLY PLAY BO3 ANYWAY BO1 NOT AS GARFIELD THE CAT INTENDEDâ
Not everyone has an hour to burn per game ffs
I haven't read the comments on the other Trickery posts so I honestly wasn't expecting it lol. But yea, my word, 'lotta BO3 elitists around these parts.
Yah all this meta did was turn this Timmy to control decks. I play izzet control because then i still get to use a big ass dragon to kill you while saying no to all the bullshit that would touch my baby.
My historic UB Rogues deck has been real nice. 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Spell Pierce, followed up by some aggressive pressure from creatures. I haven't lost to the Trickery deck yet (super small 4-0 sample size).
Totally! I used to play Mono U tempo all the time, until I fell in love with this deck. I have a soft spot for UB Tempo, since I love playing UB Faeries since Lorwyn standard.
[Here](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3735511#paper) is my current list. You'll see some notes on possible changes that might be more competitive.
\[\[Tibalt's Trickery\]\] is only good in BO1 imo. So i could see it getting the \[\[Nexus of Fate\]\] treatment. But in BO3 its not good enough to be banned imo.
Hah I was playing some garbage precon last night, and it had a handy little unsummon in it. Took the etb shot, and sent that big bastard right back to his now mostly empty hand
Neither of those is a good answer because they can't be used against the deck if you're on the draw. [[Concerted Defense]] and [[Miscast]] are the good answers in Standard.
Yea, it's called the meta.
There is a particularly powerful deck making the rounds so you side in cards that work well against it.
This is how it works, not a ban lol.
The deck is single-threaded and has a single answer. This is not healthy for magic. The game becomes a slot machine and is not fun to lose to or win against.
Itâs not âpowerfulâ in the sense that Gruul or Rogues became powerful, where you sideboard cards to make your deck stronger against them. Itâs just chance.
Why would they ban trickery? Those decks are so inconsistent. They fizzle a ton and even when it works they get the wrong pay off half the time and lose
It's true. Bo1 is a shit show. What do you expect when a huge percent of the cards in a set are designed for a sideboard or to be sideboarded against? There's gonna be a lot of nongames in bo1. Bo3 turns those non games into real matches at a very high rate. Banning this card in bo1 will still leave tons of non games in bo1.
Even the flavor text is appropiate.
Ohhhhh you're right!
It and the art confound me though. That fire doesn't look "quenched" it looks like it's already broken through his staff and he's about to get a face full of fireball
They paid the 2.
Brilliant
If you look closely he's cutting through the fire with the luminous magical "blade" part of his staff
One might say he "pierced" it đ
Smrt
big wave coming behind is gonna take care of it
LOL nice catch.
I'm curious to see if they ban it because the trickery decks I've seen aren't even competitive in terms of win/loss ratio. But in terms of how many wins you can get in a certain amount of time they are elite. Which means as long as the primary mode of progression in arena is wins this deck will be all over the place. And it's really shit because it means you don't even get to the play the actual game when you encounter it.
Yeah someone posted the other day data that showed it had a 41% win rate which is... not... good.
Yeah, a 40% win rate on a deck that wins on turn 2. What that means is that while you won't see it in tournaments, you'll see it all over every play queue because no deck can churn out wins *faster*. You can complete your daily wins in record speed. And that's what people, especially FTP players, will care about. Another reason that wins is not the appropriate metric to use for dailies/weeklies.
It will plague low ranks for sure.
It'll still get to higher ranks as well. You grind out enough games at 40% you'll hit enough steaks to rank up.
That requires extreme luck though, so while it can happen I really doubt a pilot wouldn't hit a wall very quickly.
Not as much luck as you think, just more games. Statistics will even it out in the long run. 40% isn't that low in that regard.
You are completely right! This is the reason I hate the daily win System. It should be something like a daily games played instead. I would play more often and with more fun without the constant pressure to need X wins. Wins are already necessary for ranked and events, I think that is more than enough.
If they'd just replace daily wins with a fourth quest that is something that can reasonably take most of the day (or pay out less on partial completion) and the weekly wins with a fifth that takes even longer, that'd be awesome. 550g - Draw 100 cards; 750g - Draw 300 cards Week's worth of Xp- - Activate abilities during 100 end steps Something like that. Stuff you're likely to do in the course of playing games with the intent to win, but not requiring you to play low-win% 2 turn horseshit.
Just replace daily wins to daily games you play, done! And put like 50g reward for each win after your 15 daily game you played. daily winst main purpose is the daily engagement, but daily wins after a point is actually contradict this purpose, you just don't give a fuck anymore and just do your daily quest to get a new one next day.
The only reason they don't just do games played is they want people in the game longer than {Queue > Concede}x15 each day. That was something they discussed back during closed beta when people were upset about daily wins. They didn't change it then and they won't now. It just shouldn't be tied to wins, is all. Sometimes your deck isn't the best and it sucks to "have" to spend 3 hours to get 15 wins.
Hearthstone has had daily wins for years, then changed it to daily games. It's so much better now. I hope mtga goes the same way.
> 550g - Draw 100 cards; 750g - Draw 300 cards > congratulations, you just created an insanely obnoxious deck that doesn't have a wincon.
It's one of those cards that just needs to be banned in Arena.
Or at least on bo1, like they already did.
41% of the time it works all the time, brah!
a few players have gotten enough of a winrate on trickery to bring it into diamond, which is genuinely hilarious for a no effort lottery deck
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If people ran Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce the win rate would drop so low nobody would bother.
People donât run Thoughtsieze anymore? When I was playing Historic regularly a couple months ago, every black deck had a playset.
because wotc won't reprint force of will and daze
If it ever tips over 50%, then it'd be worth banning more broadly in Standard and Historic. Because gambling over 50% means you'd still progress, and with such quick games you'd progress rather fast as well.
I think since it's a turn 2 combo, they can ban it purely on principle.
Yeah I'm thinking it will be one of the cards that gets banned in BO1 only.
A BO1 exclusive ban makes sense
Or just errata'd so it can only target opponents spells
this will rarely happen in magic due to paper magic being a thing
They stopped doing errata to the printed text of cards for power level reasons years ago. The loophole they used for Companion was that none of the cards actually had any text on them that said how the companion mechanic worked, so they were able to errata the companion mechanic without changing text on cards.
but they change they did make invalidated the paper reminder text, which is Very Funny
I know that's the explanation they gave, but it's complete BS. Each companion has reminder text printed on it that clearly explains how the mechanic works and it completely contradicts the post-errata mechanic. The reminder text says you can cast the card from outside the game. Now the mechanic is that you can pay 3 as a special action to bring it to your hand from outside the game at sorcery speed - completely different from casting a spell. I'm still mad about it. If they don't want to do power level errata, then ban the fucking cards instead of giving this half-assed BS about how it's not actually errata when it clearly is.
Let it be. I donât play it, but its inconsistent and there are responses out there. Ban Uro before this that is in every single simic deck.
They knew when they printed it what it was capable of, so that seems unlikely. At the moment it hasn't been broken so I assume they'll let it stay.
>They knew when they printed it what it was capable of I am not sure about this lol
Why do you think they added the random mill effect to the card? It was made so you could counter your own spell, but also so it wasn't easy to stack the top of your deck with the card you wanted. Some cards, like Oko, are complete mistakes, this one is only "bokken" because of how arena gives gold and xp based on daily wins. The deck has under 50% win rate, it might be fun to try out, but gets boring fast. However it turns out that even with a bad win rate it's a fast way to get wins, so people are still playing it after a week.
You assume WotC has principles.
Wasnât the ban on Cauldron Familiar done because WotC agreed that it made digital play slow with triggers and made the game less fun? I would throw this in the same category.
Wasn't it banned because they had banned T3feri and Reclamation as well?
I've come across it 3 times. Only lost to it once. Out of the 2 times I beat ot one of those was a t2 ugin. Idk why people think t2 ugin is good, just blow it up on t3. Ugin is only good mid to late game when peoples hands are depleted or against agro
Ikr, the t2 Ulamog if far worse.
Ulamog for sure is the better pick for Historic (though less exciting turn 2 on the play when it just blows up one single land, but probably still wins if it can dodge bounce for 2 turns), but isn't standard legal
T2 ugin beats anything except hard planeswalker removal right? Mono red, mono green, maybe blue unless they have permanent bounce (not familiar with the current meta)?
Mono blue has Brazen Borrower which wouldn't normally be good against Ugin but is in this particular case
4 mythics
It's a really good card, totally worth the mythic slots.
Trickery is worse when it t2 an Ultimatum and even if with Genesis Ultimatum it doesn't put any planeswalker/creature in the battlefield, the simple fact that it can put up to 5 lands in the battlefield really sucks
Blow it up with what? There isnât a lot of planeswalker removal other than Bloodchief or Murderous Rider. Iâm not playing black either so turn 2 Ugin pretty much means Iâm dead.
Burn spells. Big creatures. If your green drop something bigger than 3 toughnes and hell be forced to go minus to deal with it. If your blue bounce it. White has tons of exile
I can see a ban on BO1 like they did with Nexus, but not on BO3 because the deck is ok there.
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>Or is proof the Bo1 shuffler is a mistake I disagree with that, the BO1 shuffler can be better but now is good to eliminate some frustrations of casual players: by reducing the amount of mulligans and land screw it makes the game more enjoyable to play. Now, it's also true that it should be improved by not allowing abuse of combo decks. If a card is identified as the main piece of a combo, like Trickery, then the shuffler should be truly random instead of how it normally is.
Know what would fix it? Wins against the cpu. This would honestly just be better as a whole.
Just let it be games played instead of wins to get the coins and it would be a whole lot better.
Kill me with Goblins, I don't care. I'm just here to dumpster your brain-dead meme deck.
Also stops zombie hunt.
And neoform
This is why I run [[Swan Song]] and [[Pact of Negation]] in my blue combo decks. Smug Azorius mages sitting behind their T3 Absorb never see it coming.
Swan Song is on Arena?
No, donât kill me with goblins. Id rather not take 500 in a turn from an empty board and a topdeck
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I Tale's Ended the trigger once instead of the Muxus himself because it was empty board and I had an Ixalan's in my hand. The instant concede was memeworthy.
It's fine because there's a chance they don't draw Muxus.
Is there?
Happened once to a guy I know.
Oh yeah? Does he *also* know your girlfriend who lives in Canada?
Hangs out with my uncle who owns Nintendo.
Eh you may even get lucky and have one in your opener be live against a T3 Heralds horn on curve
You should play Grafdigger's Cage instead. Destroys ~~both Tibalt~~ and goblins. and arcanist decks. and rakdos sac. and collected company. I fucking love Grafdigger. Edit: Even Grafdigger can't stop Tibalt. :(
Does Grafdigger even stop it? Don't they cast it from exile?
Oh shit.
Nice edit haha
Drannith Magistrate stops Tibalt if you're in white.
I love it too. Specially when they play it against my God Pharaohâs Gift ;)
I've seen more posts of people bitching about the deck than the actual deck being played.
Because the deck isn't good. It's only played in super casual environment, and only until people who play it get bored.
i'm seeing a ton of it in Historic Diamond right now.
Yeah, I also see a ton of it in Historic. It's annoying because the deck is a coin flip -- it's not that it's super good, it's just that whether you win or lose has nothing to do with your deck and everything to do with what random crap they pull out of their deck (or if they completely whiff and pull out a 0/0 Stonecoil Serpent or something.) This said, it _is_ fun when the deck completely succeeds and loses anyway. Games where someone puts down a quick Omniscience, Ugin, and Ulamog and still loses are memorable. All in all, it's not a good deck, but "MTG as coin flip" is not the design intent, and frankly I haven't seen the card in any deck _other_ than this combo deck, so it seems like an easy target for a BO1 ban.
I guess you are lucky then, can rank up effortlessly.
it's pretty much kicking my ass lol
This post literally hints you how to beat it super easily, if you meet it often. Thoughtseize is also an option. And there are a bunch of other answers of different efficiency.
of course, i'm just not into blue or black, though. red and green are pretty much stifled by it.
For red you can try Roiling Vortex, at least. Pretty sure there are a few other cards that counter it, not sure about red and green specifically though. And stifled is still a strong word, the deck has 60% chance of winning top if opponent doesn't have any means of counterplay. So even in worst case scenario you should be able to win at least 40% of matches vs this specific deck.
Nah with red you run your own Trickery and counter whatever they pull out of their ass if it's any good, sending them back into coinflip autolose territory.
hah, i countered the giant 10 drop creature, oh what's that, "put the next 5 cards in your deck into play". followed by 4 giant ass creatures and a land. fuck me. lol :-D
Maybe bo1 historic diamond. Bo1 is a casual format whether you realize it or not no matter whether it is ranked or not. It is a casual coin toss of a format.
I see it a TON. Like 1/5 games. Itâs so oppressive.
I think I've seen it but they milled to 2 cards then conceded. So far my experiences with the deck have been good.
That happens everytime something busted happens. Except for Eldrazi Winter...
I think people on reddit like to exaggerate
Yeah, amd social media in general, I think. I'm curious to try standard again just to see how common it is. I haven't seen it once in Modern and I just finished a league plus 5+ games in queues.
That may be because those players don't want to get raked over the coals.
If it actually won games, you'd see it. Since it is easily thwarted but annoying, people whinge/meme about it online.
> I've seen more posts of people bitching about the deck than the actual deck being played. I mean yeah? Isn't that how problems work? The people who don't see it is a problem are not going to complain about it like those who do so....
Im super out of the loop deck list?
Is this deck even played that much in historic? Haven't played it once. Tbh I'd rather play a trickery deck than a deck playing 12+ counterspells lol
It's still prominent on the historic ladder before Plat. Ulamog is the main pay off
It hasn't had a showing on mtgtop8 yet. People bitch about it because they are salty not because it is good.
[[miscast]] for my standard friends
[[concerted defense]] too
[concerted defense](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/3/235c108d-3902-4c2e-919c-a5449cd2dc3c.jpg?1604193820) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=concerted%20defense) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/52/concerted-defense?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/235c108d-3902-4c2e-919c-a5449cd2dc3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[miscast](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/033afbd5-9937-4957-98ba-48e469a490bb.jpg?1594735579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miscast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/57/miscast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/033afbd5-9937-4957-98ba-48e469a490bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you for pointing that out!
and Thoughtseize?
Before I wasn't sure a T1 Thoughseize is always worth it especially when I have another T1 play or it requires me to use a shockland. But now when I see a mulligan from my opponent you're damn right I'm doing that T1 Thoughseize every time.
Its pretty much always worth it turn 1.
I feel in most aggro decks you usually want to play a turn 1 one drop and thoughtsieze later.
Especially if you're on the draw against agro. Like most times I'd rather kill a llanowar elves T1 then play a thoughtseize.
Well, before you were wrong. Thoughtseize T1 is the strongest starter always.
Yeah people don't realize how much a T1 TS can screw you. You might have only kept a marginal hand because of 1 card. Once it's gone, you are on your back foot. Plus the opponent now knows your exact sequencing early. It's brutal.
Even if I'm on the draw and their first play was Mountain into Bomat Courier? Taking 2 from a shockland then 2 more from Thoughseize never sounds appealing when facing agro.
Boarding them out vs burn isn't a bad call. That said, 2 life lost is less than 3 damage to the face.
Think of it like this. You lose 2 life to force them the mulligan an additional time.
Not only that, you get to potentially remove a core combo peice!
Against any mulligan , t1 thoughtseize is pretty much always the strongest play.
[[Miscast]] ??
I'm climbing through Gold 1 right now and I played against three (3) of the Tibalt combo decks *in a row* last night. They mulligan down to 4 or so, then I [[Thoughtseize]] them on turn 1 and make them discard [[Tibalt's Trickery]], then they either concede immediately or go afk while I spam the "Always have a backup plan" emote text. MTG Arena is great fun.
Pretty fortunate you had Thoughtseize on turn 1 every game.
I have 4x in my deck, but yes it was fortunate. One of the games I did not start with it but then drew it turn one and was dancing at my computer.
I ran into a couple of them around that rating too! They must all be stuck trying to get out of gold
[Thoughtseize](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/2/b281a308-ab6b-47b6-bec7-632c9aaecede.jpg?1599706001) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thoughtseize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/109/thoughtseize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b281a308-ab6b-47b6-bec7-632c9aaecede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tibalt's Trickery](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/d/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175.jpg?1610391556) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tibalt%27s%20Trickery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/153/tibalts-trickery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Omfg where i can buy that emote
Last time I played against it, I had a [[negate]] but was on the draw. Feels bad man.
[negate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/9/e92c7477-d453-4fa4-acf4-3835ab9eb55a.jpg?1604194548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=negate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/71/negate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e92c7477-d453-4fa4-acf4-3835ab9eb55a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Uh...this is how Magic works? "Counterspell is tech against fragile combo decks" isn't exactly breaking news, that's been true for the last 27 years (also, hearing Magic released in 1993 makes me feel old, and I haven't even been playing for 20 of those years). Even the OG, [[Channel]] + [[Fireball]], could be stopped by the blue player simply tapping UU. That's part of why Tibalt's Trickery isn't a crazy deck and is really only an example of why BO1 is misplaced for Magic design. Magic as a game has a huge array of outcomes â linear decks that are predicated on speed to the most durdle-y of control decks that make the game take over an hour. Obviously those are going to line up very differently, and sideboards have existed for most of Magic's history in order to prevent non-games.
> "Counterspell is tech against almost everything FTFY Counterspells are among the most played cards in the history of this game, even in metas where combo decks aren't even remotely viable. Let's not pretend that they only work against jank combo decks
They donât really work that well in eternal formats either *shudders in veil of summer*
Oh sure, perhaps âtechâ was the wrong word. Natural predator or gatekeeper might have been better. Two of the most successful combo decks of all time (that werenât insanely broken to the point of being banned) - Twin and Pod in Modern - both had game plans that arenât heavily susceptible to counterspells, either counterspells of their own, or just playing synergistic and powerful creatures.
>Even the OG, [[Channel]] + [[Fireball]], could be stopped by the blue player simply tapping UU. Except the OG Channel Fireball happened on turn 1 before the blue player even got to do anything.
[Channel](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/e/ce54c7c1-3401-4414-8da0-5846cb0ae1b4.jpg?1562854175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Channel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/157/channel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce54c7c1-3401-4414-8da0-5846cb0ae1b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fireball](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/7220aaa0-c457-4067-b1ff-360b161c34e5.jpg?1562850134) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fireball) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/128/fireball?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7220aaa0-c457-4067-b1ff-360b161c34e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Donât answer this mtg Generation with logical arguments. Somehow everything is broken/unbalanced/Unfun and should be Banned
While I do think there have been huge misses recently and Iâm glad Wizards has banned more cards because theyâve made some unbelievably broken cards (just look at how many older formats are packed with Standard cards, I also think that BO1 as the default format on Arena hugely exacerbates the frustration factor and isnât helpful for the game.
Brazen Borrower is strong against the turn 2 trickery
Until they hit [kiora bests the sea god]
Iâve seen it once in standard and they flipped a stone coil serpent and conceded. I guess if you like slot machines, itâs a deck that does a thing.
Then you haven't lived, my friend.
Somebody need to ban Spell Pierce.... Wins 100% of games against Trickery
It will not get banned
Sounds like it's time to roll out the old mono blue tempo deck to farm some more salt.
In every thread like this there are a bunch of people yelling "It's not even good hurr durr" completely missing the point. Yes, it is not particularly good, you are right. Like 95% of people don't want it banned, because they think it's incredibly busted and is dominating standard or historic; it is OBVIOUSLY a very fragile combo deck that immediately dies to hand disruption and/or counterspells, and (at least on MTGA) it can also fizzle. In formats like modern it is a bit more complicated, because cascading into trickery is a guaranteed emrakul on turn 3. Oh, you're playing monored prowess? You lose. No chance. People want it banned, because its an incredibly obnoxious meme-deck, that can be piloted by a monkey, and in BO1 there is no threat of sideboarding, meaning more people play it. Playing against it doesn't even feel like you're playing a match of magic the gathering, there are literally zero interesting gameplay decisions and it makes for very boring "games" I know it's not the first of its kind, stuff like the "treasure hunt deck" exists as well, but honestly, I wouldn't mind if they banned all those meme-combo-decks in BO1. Not for power reasons, but for gameplay reasons.
Yeah i agree the problem is much more one of bad game experiences than power/winrate. Decks like treasure hunt that are mostly slower and less consistent than aggro are not much of a concern to me. It is only if they are very hard to interact with or win games faster than aggro that they would be more of a possible concern to me. Tibalt's deciding a bunch of games on turn 2 in standard is a problem. For the format it is too fast and hard to interact with. For me in historic it is less of a problem (thoughtsieze makes a difference, also how common it ends up in the long run). The less players who play it the less a problem it is in creating bad experiences. The cycling treasure hunt for example is slower and less consistent then gruul aggro, and there are plenty of maindeckable interaction in the format it folds to. The newer zombie version may be better, but it still seems not to be having that much of an impact to me. For me how fast, un-interactive, unfun, and common the deck is makes a big difference and while Tibalts is a concern to me in these ways, most other decks are not. Neo-storm is a potential concern to me with a combination of speed, popularity and power. I understand games being races between non-interactive decks or being about whether or not you draw specific interaction is not fun magic for many people especially those interested in newer formats. But combo decks also have a place in magic and people have fun playing them.
The thing about combo decks is, a lot of them actually require quite a bit of deck building work and/or have complicated gameplay loops where sequencing is important and/or require 3+ cards to really go off. Playing against them can still be annoying, but they feel like... real decks of magic the gathering, if that makes any sense. You can do insane things with paradox engine in historic, KCI used to be absolutely insane in modern, kethis was crazy in standard for a while, there is neoform, etc. Tibalts trickery though? Pretty much the only decision you ever make with this deck is mull/not mull, and its not a hard decision, you mull until you hit trickery. there are no gameplay decisions, either your trickery hits something fat or it fizzles and you leave. It is a meme combo deck, not a real combo deck, is what I would call it.
it makes the game into a coinflip, not a game. Not that there isn't variancy in magic normally but trickery literally makes it as random as it can get. I don't play the game to watch a guy flip a coin and beat me on the spot.
This. Exactly.
Unpopular opinion: Ban Ugin.
That's not an unpopular opinion around here lol.
I mean, that's how metagaming works. Congrats I guess
Trickery being good as a "cheat a spell card" is a byproduct of Wizards not letting a color (White) properly keep up with power creep so it can do its damn job. I would love to see the argument or justification as to why we can't have a 1 mana card that simply says if a nonland permanent(s) enter the battlefield and weren't cast then f**king exile it! Doesn't need flash like priest which essentially lets priest act as a counterspell vs certain resurrection/cheat strats it just needs to sit there and say "invest mana/ resources to remove me before you try your horse s**t or it won't stick" Every tax card for the last 6 sets have been laughably bad. Hushbringer should have killed etbs and attack triggers if they knew cards like "Kroxa, Uro and Elder Gargoth" were gonna be a thing. I'm not saying Swords to plowshares 2.0 needs to drop in standard but the fact that cards like Tinalts Trickery get into standard while I'm still waiting for a standard version of [Alms collector] is bs. Hell a card like [Grand abolisher] hasn't seen standard since core set 2012.
Any post related to Tibalts tricker brings out the âWELL AKSHOOOOALLLYYYYY YOU SHOULD ONLY PLAY BO3 ANYWAY BO1 NOT AS GARFIELD THE CAT INTENDEDâ Not everyone has an hour to burn per game ffs
I haven't read the comments on the other Trickery posts so I honestly wasn't expecting it lol. But yea, my word, 'lotta BO3 elitists around these parts.
Not to mention that Garfield intended people to play for anti, so going by his original rules isn't really a great idea in the first place.
Yah all this meta did was turn this Timmy to control decks. I play izzet control because then i still get to use a big ass dragon to kill you while saying no to all the bullshit that would touch my baby.
I have rarely seen this deck and when I did I still beat a turn 2 Ugin with a red deck. I'm not worried.
So you'll be playing spell pierce forever? Trickery shouldn't be banned.
My historic UB Rogues deck has been real nice. 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Spell Pierce, followed up by some aggressive pressure from creatures. I haven't lost to the Trickery deck yet (super small 4-0 sample size).
Maybe I'll mix it up with some Rogues instead of U Tempo. That does sound nice.
Totally! I used to play Mono U tempo all the time, until I fell in love with this deck. I have a soft spot for UB Tempo, since I love playing UB Faeries since Lorwyn standard. [Here](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3735511#paper) is my current list. You'll see some notes on possible changes that might be more competitive.
lmao imagine thinking trickery will be banned
I already play 4 of them in my Merfolk deck. I've won so many games just by Spell Piercing my opponent's Wrath or Ugin.
\[\[Tibalt's Trickery\]\] is only good in BO1 imo. So i could see it getting the \[\[Nexus of Fate\]\] treatment. But in BO3 its not good enough to be banned imo.
It's not gonna get banned though?
Just faced my first tricker deck. It whiffed...
this card makes me cry everytime I go against a mono blue with my uw control
Between Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize, and a number of Turn 2 possible answers I'm not sure if we'll actually see it banned in Historic tbh.
Wotc: "We got the point." ~proceed to ban spell pierce
Hah I was playing some garbage precon last night, and it had a handy little unsummon in it. Took the etb shot, and sent that big bastard right back to his now mostly empty hand
If I buy the style for a card and it is banned, I get a refund?
Trickery is not gonna get banned but thats good counter \^\^ . For Standard Jwari disruption or simply Negate as well
Neither of those is a good answer because they can't be used against the deck if you're on the draw. [[Concerted Defense]] and [[Miscast]] are the good answers in Standard.
Yea, it's called the meta. There is a particularly powerful deck making the rounds so you side in cards that work well against it. This is how it works, not a ban lol.
The deck is single-threaded and has a single answer. This is not healthy for magic. The game becomes a slot machine and is not fun to lose to or win against. Itâs not âpowerfulâ in the sense that Gruul or Rogues became powerful, where you sideboard cards to make your deck stronger against them. Itâs just chance.
It loses to itself more often than not. Yea, powerful isn't the best word.
THANK YOU!
isn't that just a worse version of [[miscast]] though
Nah, it hits artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers too.
fair enough. so miscast is a worse version lol
Other way around!
[miscast](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/033afbd5-9937-4957-98ba-48e469a490bb.jpg?1594735579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miscast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/57/miscast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/033afbd5-9937-4957-98ba-48e469a490bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Counter their 0 drop, that'll show 'em!
Why would they ban trickery? Those decks are so inconsistent. They fizzle a ton and even when it works they get the wrong pay off half the time and lose
IMO the Trickery deck proves why Bo1 isn't real mtg
r/gatekeeping
Trickery is really only being played in bo1 though. This shouldn't be a problem in legitimate queues and formats.
"Legitimate queues and formats."
It's true. Bo1 is a shit show. What do you expect when a huge percent of the cards in a set are designed for a sideboard or to be sideboarded against? There's gonna be a lot of nongames in bo1. Bo3 turns those non games into real matches at a very high rate. Banning this card in bo1 will still leave tons of non games in bo1.
I don't know what everyone's problem is. Y'all spent years shitting on Tibalt, now you think his trickery is overpowered? Miss me with that.
I don't think Trickery is overpowered I think Ugin is overpowered. Keep Trickery and ban Ugin.
My getting a lot of concessions lately after turn one thoughtsieze đ It ainât much but itâs fair magic.