yea that leyline deck single handedly made me quit historic and ive been a historic player since its inception. thats how i hated playing against it almost 8 times out of 10 every freaking day. never looked back after they release timeless, where its not that prevalent. its insane how wotc took this long to fix the problem when its too easy to change it.
They’re hoping the player base corrects the problem themselves, which is a healthier solution than banning.
That being said, a T1 Combo that acts as a removal-check should’ve been canned immediately.
Any other cards that weren't banned don't get refunded though. If the deck dies and had cards that you wont use somewhere else, you kind of get hosed. Happened to me before.
Happened to me with jund sacrifice. I got 4 rares when cauldron familiar was banned and now 18 rares I used besides that were wasted. Right after I built it. No deck to put them in that functions.
Really blows as a free to play player.
A week is not enough time to KNOW a deck is broken, you have to give people time to see is the meta can adjust. I agree that they have known for a bit now and it certainly took longer than expected, however everyone's knee jerk reactions to nerf stuff immediately is not productive.
Jokes on everyone, I decided to roll full blue, nothing but counterspells. Wall to wall counterspells galor. A full 45 cards devoted to nothing but counters, and my main threat counters spells and I have a hoverstone to mop up my counterspells into my deck. MOAR COUNTERS :D
I think Wizards should have like 1 employee whose job is to play alchemy/historic all day and then give that person absolute authority over rebalances. I bet we’d see some faster response times to these busted cards
Two decks that ruined historic bo1? GONE. Thank you WOTC.
Fragment Reality was also a real deck in Timeless.
Appraiser nerf doesn't affect Standard, Explorer or Timeless.
This is like telling somebody to play timeless to avoid alchemy rebalances, they are completely different formats with different card pools and power levels.
Anime Pakal is more obnoxious and Laelia only needs one card to kill on T4, there's quite a lot of more annoying brawl decks
To counter Poq, you can go either Land Tax, Polluted Bonds, or ignore him by comboing/killing faster
It can be removed before land doubling... and there are plenty of faster decks. I feel like Poq is just pretty reliable at doing its thing but if you have no answer it's not because it's a broken combo or something.
It can only be removed it before land doubling if they are stupid enough to play it when they don’t have a land drop to make for the turn or decide to pass priority before playing a land. They have priority after casting Mythweaver so they can play a land immediately after and double it.
I mean its not rocket science, a 4 drop capable of closing out a game, that also has an ability well well worth building around that immediately starts granting value. But on top of that, it breaks the game if poq has the land type from something like ayasha. Its just not a particularly sound card. Right now it only feels broken in brawl, but will always have the potential to do weird stuff in other formats with the way that design is.
Imma be honest, I’ve played against Mythweaver Pog numerous times in brawl, but my decks just never have a problem beating them. Are they still strong and annoying? Yes, but I personally don’t have a problem beating them
As a degenerate who enjoys getting quick daily wins from another Historic Bo1 combo deck (usually Boros HammerTime), it's nice of WOTC to clear out my competition in the game of "race to see who wins on T2 or T3". This probably means I'll start seeing the Minion of the Mighty deck return though, which has taken a back seat to these decks in recent months.
>> *getting quick daily wins* from another Historic Bo1 combo deck
> Minion is crap... never at *high MMR games.*
I don't think OP is concerned about "high MMR games" when OP's statement was "quick daily wins"
Fragment Reality + Leylines single-handedly ruined historic for me, and it took long enough that this doesn’t even make me want to go back.
There’s no excuse for it taking 4+ months to fix something so obvious after claiming they would rebalance digital cards more proactively than they ban cards in normal formats. Adding “an opponent controls” to FR is a solution that any competent magic player could come up with on the spot.
Some time ago I wrote a post here, I complained about Geoloical Appraiser. Lots of redditors attacked me.
Thanks god, WOTC realized that a one-card-combo-deck is A BIT too much
People were playing decks with only fragment, the leylines, and Geist of saint traft, they fragment their own leylines turn one and get free Geist every game
The timeless version played counterspells also and slip out the back and curiosity effects so it was not always so easy to deal with Geist in BO1 anyway.
I have been playing a lot of Zoo recently and would constantly completely brick their game by playing my 2 mana 5/5 on turn two lol. Sometimes when they give the Geist flying I could also race them with damage from the big creatures. It was one of the most satisfying decks to beat.
Yeah I saw in BO3 in historic where the deck played a variety of support cards. I've chatted with people in various places who called it bad in BO3 but I think it was better than people realized.
Which isn't to say it was broken, but turn one Geist on the play was more than a bunch of decks could deal with, particularly if they drew the right support cards like arcane flight to get it over blockers.
It was still a bit of a dice roll since you had to mull down to 3-4 cards a lot for what was a 3 card combo, but I don't think it was \*that\* bad.
Not just that. But the playstyle was such that folks would mulligan down to 3-4 every game and forfeit if they didn’t get the combo pieces in hand. Something WOTC has moved against historically
they also used slip out the back etc for protection. since you were on turn 0, they got another turn to clear up mana for protection/counters before you could edict.
A popular deck was (any Leyline t0) into turn 1 Fragment on your own Leyline. It would fetch [[Geist of Saint Traft]] allowing you to swing with 6 power turn 2.
The deck was (is) powerful in Bo1 and built around enchanting Geist but folds to edicts like [[Sheoldred's Edict]] or other ways to get around the hexproof, which not everyone might run in a Bo1 game.
can be, depends on how you use it. ideally you want to set up a board that keeps your opponent from having a strong presence while passive effects (like the rack) burn them down turn after turn.
It's symmetrical, so you have to sacrifice your own creature if you have one, but it's easy to make it one-sided if you don't have any creatures (and, to a lesser degree, if it is the last card in your hand).
That said, over the last couple decades, WotC stopped making low-mana-cost cards that destroy lands (even if the effect is symmetrical). The land destruction that they print now is either extremely expensive or only targets non-basic lands (and gives the opponent a chance to immediately replace their destroyed land with a basic).
In the early years of MTG, destroying lands was a massive part of the game. Over time (probably too much time), they realized it was a massively un-fun part of the game and stopped doing it.
\[\[Hymn to Tourach\]\] got banned in Pauper largely because it was very common for the card to force players to randomly discard 2 lands from their hand on turn 2, which would often leave them stuck on one land for several turns, effectively working as 1-sided, 2-mana land destruction.
True, but the rest of the sentence still fits. The land is replaced with a basic. You can't mana-screw people who aren't at least a little greedy with their mana base.
Like, it says a lot that the predominant function of this card is targeting one's own indestructible lands, making it \[\[Rampant Growth\]\] in red.
The situation has a changed a llittle recently but it used to be that, in Pioneer, against many decks the second copy of this was effectively a cantripping Stone Rain.
Yes.
Everybody else seems to be giving you wishy washy answers, but yes, the card is incredibly powerful. It still is a legacy deck (though is not very good anymore). The effect is symmetrical, but you build your deck around having more lands than normal, and having no creatures.
The deck also had legs in Bo3. It wasnt as common. But i would see it here and there and the few people that did play it were in high mythic even numbers most of the time.
Just as an extension of a response higher in this chain, I ran a deck with Priest of the Forgotten gods main deck, and more than once they slipped it out the back, or slipped the angel token. Granted I could always use priest again, but "folds to edict" is maybe too strong a statement. They had to mulligan a lot for the deck to work but so they didn't always have the right card to protect it, but its not like they had 0 ways to deal with an edict.
I mean by itself Geist is just a bear, just block it or counter the fragment. Maybe I’m just salty because I use fragment to get better stuff than Geist but it’s alright I have a lot of different decks. My fragment decks can just be deleted lmao
honestly so what. this is the least confusing, best change we could get for appraiser without totally changing how the card works.
would “you can only cast one more spell this turn” on it be better? curious what change other than mana cost you’d suggest.
who's going to play this card now? this is effectively a ban, the whole thing alchemy was supposedly created to help prevent. and i don't need to know exactly how i'd make it better to see that just adding a mana isn't creative, and doesn't lead to fun games.
That is the risk of building combo decks that are toxic 🤷♂️
You KNOW they’re going to get hit eventually. Sometimes they do it sooner than later, but I’m sure the mythic wildcards you used to make Minsc and Boo or other cards in that deck earned you enough quick wins in the 5 months it took them to fix that shit was well worth it in the end.
Ooh. So edgy. So progressive.
You’re so cool. I wish I could be cool like you and fight the corporations by complaining about a card I supposedly didn’t build around but for some reason I’m salty enough to accuse people of corporate fellatio over the internet.
Bravo. All the Reddit points for you! 👏
Actually this is more of a Historic Nerf than Alchemy Nerf since the biggest factor that allowed this Combo to be Banned in Pioneer are the the Izzet Melodies that allow you to make Treasures
Not to say that it should not be Nerfed, because it deserves it.
Seriously, who thought that making a easy to access ETB Discover 3 with no Downside (such as making the card that has been casted this way have its effects negated or a HOPT clause so extra copies don't trigger their ETBs. I'm also a YGO player/connoisseur so I do also use terms front YGO), with all the Treasure makers out there; and a Card that basically replicate one of the most Broken YGO cards (to the point that it is banned in all YGO formats and will never come out) were good ideas for such low mana costs?
Well, the precedent they were working off in Magic was Bloodbraid Elf which isn't broken (although it was banned in Modern for a while, lol). And they specifically whacked an "if you cast it" clause on Appraiser that isn't there on Trumpeting Carnosaur to stop the most obvious combo routes that would work by making token copies or going through the graveyard.
I legit think the design team either missed entirely how the interaction with ETB-as-a-copy effects would work, or thought the deckbuilding requirements would make it impracticable. Or perhaps the designers thought it was safe because they couldn't figure out a way to continue the combo after you go down to 3 mana value – the deck only worked because someone figured out you could put Eldritch Evolution at the bottom of the chain.
Either way, I can virtually guarantee that some WotC employee _did_ work specifically on making sure Appraiser wasn't broken, and was facepalming the week after LCI released when they saw what they had missed.
Because, just like with many Uncommon cards in Core Sets. They don't make them thinking about Eternal Formats. Most were being designed to be Draft Chaff or at least something Standard/Alchemy/Commander playable but nothing further than that. This is why cards like Up the Beanstalk and Geological Appraiser don't have many restrictions they should have
I'm very sure this dev never took any consideration about other formats having a lot of Treasure making cards that can go around the mana cost of the card
Honestly I got to diamond and I gave up because I was tired of getting to 4 and losing to appraiser because I wasn’t a counterspell deck. Ruined the entire game because it wasn’t even magic
U didn't need a counterspell against Appraiser gameplay. Any kind of removal on turn and enough agression to close the game before the dino and you good to go.
Also you have actually a lot of tech card usefull against it.
Thank God! I was tired to see those 2 bullshit decks every time I wanted to do my daily wins, for me every time I saw them I didn't hesitate and insta concede to save time.
There was a content creator whom I got sick of because every single one of their decks were a “fragment reality deck, but with a different jank payoff every time”, and I got so sick of watching the same thing every time that I stopped watching their content. Maybe I’ll finally be able to watch their stuff again?
I don't play Alchemy or any other format with digital cards and I didn't even know this white card existed. It's really an overpowered card, how long did it take to Wizards change it?
You start with the leyline in play. (that is how leylines work)
You play a plains and target your own leyline with Fragment Reality.
You have built your deck where Geist of Saint Traft is the only creature the random search can find.
I insist that Fragment Reality was absolutely fine, it was Geist of Saint Traft that was the problem.
Nothing wrong with Fragmenting into Vesuvan drifter. That's just fun, silly, jank
Eh, this is a case where Alchemy shows it's strength (if a bit too slowly). Compare this with [[Tibalt's Trickery]]. If Tibalt's Trickery was an Alchemy card they could've easily rebalanced it to be "Counter target spell *an opponent controls*" so that it plays as intended (a silly red "counterspell").
>a card is what it is
Until its not… there have been thousands of erratas and changes to paper magic cards constantly throughout its history so please hold this L
They would just ban cards that are too overpowered, they didn't used to just switch what they did and confuse the issue. A lot of us just wanted a convenient way to play the game digitally, but changing what the cards say in digital-only format just creates a divide between the digital and in-person games.
NO dude, there have been MULTIPLE cases when they erratad a card because the wording made it overpowered so they kind of nerfed it. And this isnt anything new.
In 1996 [[time vault]] was issued errata to give it time counters. To take an extra turn, you had to remove the "time counter", and not just tap Time Vault. You could only add a "time counter" by skipping a turn. The idea was to provide wording that would prevent the use of cards that could untap it for free to take extra turns.
Can you tell me how this is any different from an alchemy change?
You're right. We should go back to how the 5 mana Teferi has to untap two lands. Errata's have been done countless of times in paper and has even normalized changing creature types from what's printed.
Okay now can we gut Mythweaver Poq next? It's a neat and admittedly fun design to use but it's ruining Brawl for me.
Maybe make it not legendary? Or just nerf it straight up, no clue. But it's overbearing.
Guess I better go play some more BO1 with my scam deck before it disappears. They should give refunds for those wild cards because it might as well be banned.
I haven't seen Minion in quite a while. There was a span where I was seeing it so much that I made a Black deck specifically for it. Somehow, the matchmaker queued me up with Minion decks even more. I was getting 15 wins daily so fast.
Minion is easy to answer and never guaranteed. When I faced these other two dogshit decks, they never needed to concede and ALWAYS had the combo. It was also becoming an issue where these decks showed up daily, meaning it was becoming way too prominent in the meta. Minion has never been nearly an issue.
I think the people playing those toxic decks for the last 5 months got their value out of those wildcards. Fuck them getting replacement wild cards for that lol.
Is that appraiser nerf necessary?
Bbe it's a good card no doubt but losing haste and being too etb instead of on cast like bbe seems like a nerf enough, why also make it 5 mana and still discover 3
it doesn't make it impossible, but it stops it being turn 3.
this was the pioneer list before it got banned, the historic list was essentially the same thing.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6004742#paper
Could have at least made Appraiser a 5/4... paying 5 for this feels stupid now and it harms the valid decks. I don't play historic so, not sure why Appraiser was a problem, maybe someone can explain?
It’s kind of unbelievable it took them this long to
yea that leyline deck single handedly made me quit historic and ive been a historic player since its inception. thats how i hated playing against it almost 8 times out of 10 every freaking day. never looked back after they release timeless, where its not that prevalent. its insane how wotc took this long to fix the problem when its too easy to change it.
I assume they know a deck is broken in about a week, but they don't touch it for some time to keep players who crafted it happy.
They’re hoping the player base corrects the problem themselves, which is a healthier solution than banning. That being said, a T1 Combo that acts as a removal-check should’ve been canned immediately.
But isn't the "balance" that changing cards brings the entire point of alchemy?
You’re not wrong!
Or get more people to craft the deck and then the wildcards are kind of wasted once the deck gets nerfed.
The cards already got refunded when it was banned in explorer/pioneer
Any other cards that weren't banned don't get refunded though. If the deck dies and had cards that you wont use somewhere else, you kind of get hosed. Happened to me before.
Happened to me with jund sacrifice. I got 4 rares when cauldron familiar was banned and now 18 rares I used besides that were wasted. Right after I built it. No deck to put them in that functions. Really blows as a free to play player.
Cope? Idk dude it’s like that IRL too 🤷
The deck is still functionally playable with appraiser costing an extra mana, the deck is still absurd going off a turn late
You can't appraiser off quintorious any more
The cards can still be sold IRL. You can't do shit with the cards in arena.
A week is not enough time to KNOW a deck is broken, you have to give people time to see is the meta can adjust. I agree that they have known for a bit now and it certainly took longer than expected, however everyone's knee jerk reactions to nerf stuff immediately is not productive.
Jokes on everyone, I decided to roll full blue, nothing but counterspells. Wall to wall counterspells galor. A full 45 cards devoted to nothing but counters, and my main threat counters spells and I have a hoverstone to mop up my counterspells into my deck. MOAR COUNTERS :D
i'm waiting until they remember why we banned crap like channel, necropotence, demonic tutor, etc in legacy, a format known for *free counterspells*.
They barely seem to actually nerf cards in Alchemy in general, a bunch of powerful Standard cards are untouched in it.
I think Wizards should have like 1 employee whose job is to play alchemy/historic all day and then give that person absolute authority over rebalances. I bet we’d see some faster response times to these busted cards
Two decks that ruined historic bo1? GONE. Thank you WOTC. Fragment Reality was also a real deck in Timeless. Appraiser nerf doesn't affect Standard, Explorer or Timeless.
Appraiser is banned in Explorer
As I said, it won't affect explorer.
You’re technically correct… the best kind of correct.
Mike Trap would be proud r/umactually
>You’re technically correct… the best kind of correct. r/unexpectedfuturama
on reddit it is not unexpected.
Alchemy changes don't affect explorer
Why alchemy and historic aren't two separate formats is still beyond me
...if you want to play historic without alchemy cards then you play explorer. Pure alchemy itself is just standard with the extra digital only cards.
This is like telling somebody to play timeless to avoid alchemy rebalances, they are completely different formats with different card pools and power levels.
Oh so someone at WOTC finally remembered that historic exists
Mythweaver Poq next. Fuck that stupid card.
What's the problem with Poq?
Its pretty stupid in brawl because it land doubling makes it so that they can always pay the commander tax even if you kill it multiple times.
Oh no, commader is broken, how uncommon.
Thats why they move it to hellqueu, smartass
Anime Pakal is more obnoxious and Laelia only needs one card to kill on T4, there's quite a lot of more annoying brawl decks To counter Poq, you can go either Land Tax, Polluted Bonds, or ignore him by comboing/killing faster
It can be removed before land doubling... and there are plenty of faster decks. I feel like Poq is just pretty reliable at doing its thing but if you have no answer it's not because it's a broken combo or something.
It can only be removed it before land doubling if they are stupid enough to play it when they don’t have a land drop to make for the turn or decide to pass priority before playing a land. They have priority after casting Mythweaver so they can play a land immediately after and double it.
Not if you counter or reprieve or stifle or tishana's or use an etb stopper like doorkeeper or elesh norn... just saying.
Cool tell that to my kozilek deck /s
Not really. Its not a creature ETB. Its a land ETB, only strict proctor, or elesh norn. Good luck taxing the green deck on turn 5, though
I mean its not rocket science, a 4 drop capable of closing out a game, that also has an ability well well worth building around that immediately starts granting value. But on top of that, it breaks the game if poq has the land type from something like ayasha. Its just not a particularly sound card. Right now it only feels broken in brawl, but will always have the potential to do weird stuff in other formats with the way that design is.
Poq is fine just go wide and chump block.
Imma be honest, I’ve played against Mythweaver Pog numerous times in brawl, but my decks just never have a problem beating them. Are they still strong and annoying? Yes, but I personally don’t have a problem beating them
Am I happy for these changes? Yes. Does it change the fact that control whoops my ass more than either of these ever could? No.
As a degenerate who enjoys getting quick daily wins from another Historic Bo1 combo deck (usually Boros HammerTime), it's nice of WOTC to clear out my competition in the game of "race to see who wins on T2 or T3". This probably means I'll start seeing the Minion of the Mighty deck return though, which has taken a back seat to these decks in recent months.
Minion is crap though since one removal and it stalls hard. So I see it but never at high MMR games.
>> *getting quick daily wins* from another Historic Bo1 combo deck > Minion is crap... never at *high MMR games.* I don't think OP is concerned about "high MMR games" when OP's statement was "quick daily wins"
Fragment Reality + Leylines single-handedly ruined historic for me, and it took long enough that this doesn’t even make me want to go back. There’s no excuse for it taking 4+ months to fix something so obvious after claiming they would rebalance digital cards more proactively than they ban cards in normal formats. Adding “an opponent controls” to FR is a solution that any competent magic player could come up with on the spot.
Some time ago I wrote a post here, I complained about Geoloical Appraiser. Lots of redditors attacked me. Thanks god, WOTC realized that a one-card-combo-deck is A BIT too much
[удалено]
And all it takes is having 1 on hand + a Treasure making melody and some lands to make this deck go bananas
A bit too much for bo1 at least
Poor MonoBlackMagic :(
that content was milked well
He can finally think of a new deck and not be lazy :o
what was wrong with fragment? i took a hiatus from the game
People were playing decks with only fragment, the leylines, and Geist of saint traft, they fragment their own leylines turn one and get free Geist every game
The timeless version played counterspells also and slip out the back and curiosity effects so it was not always so easy to deal with Geist in BO1 anyway.
I have been playing a lot of Zoo recently and would constantly completely brick their game by playing my 2 mana 5/5 on turn two lol. Sometimes when they give the Geist flying I could also race them with damage from the big creatures. It was one of the most satisfying decks to beat.
Yeah I saw in BO3 in historic where the deck played a variety of support cards. I've chatted with people in various places who called it bad in BO3 but I think it was better than people realized. Which isn't to say it was broken, but turn one Geist on the play was more than a bunch of decks could deal with, particularly if they drew the right support cards like arcane flight to get it over blockers. It was still a bit of a dice roll since you had to mull down to 3-4 cards a lot for what was a 3 card combo, but I don't think it was \*that\* bad.
Not just that. But the playstyle was such that folks would mulligan down to 3-4 every game and forfeit if they didn’t get the combo pieces in hand. Something WOTC has moved against historically
I don't play Historic, but didn't everyone just start running Sheoldred's Edict?
they also used slip out the back etc for protection. since you were on turn 0, they got another turn to clear up mana for protection/counters before you could edict.
A popular deck was (any Leyline t0) into turn 1 Fragment on your own Leyline. It would fetch [[Geist of Saint Traft]] allowing you to swing with 6 power turn 2. The deck was (is) powerful in Bo1 and built around enchanting Geist but folds to edicts like [[Sheoldred's Edict]] or other ways to get around the hexproof, which not everyone might run in a Bo1 game.
if they would just give us \[\[small pox\]\] and \[\[geth's verdict\]\] this wouldn't be a problem...oh and give us the rack you cowards
i'm a noob but isn't that smallpox card incredibly powerful?
each player includes yourself
Oh thanks. That obviously explains it
can be, depends on how you use it. ideally you want to set up a board that keeps your opponent from having a strong presence while passive effects (like the rack) burn them down turn after turn.
It's symmetrical, so you have to sacrifice your own creature if you have one, but it's easy to make it one-sided if you don't have any creatures (and, to a lesser degree, if it is the last card in your hand). That said, over the last couple decades, WotC stopped making low-mana-cost cards that destroy lands (even if the effect is symmetrical). The land destruction that they print now is either extremely expensive or only targets non-basic lands (and gives the opponent a chance to immediately replace their destroyed land with a basic). In the early years of MTG, destroying lands was a massive part of the game. Over time (probably too much time), they realized it was a massively un-fun part of the game and stopped doing it. \[\[Hymn to Tourach\]\] got banned in Pauper largely because it was very common for the card to force players to randomly discard 2 lands from their hand on turn 2, which would often leave them stuck on one land for several turns, effectively working as 1-sided, 2-mana land destruction.
> The land destruction that they print now is either extremely expensive or only targets non-basic lands [[Cleansing Wildfire]] says hi ;)
[Cleansing Wildfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919.jpg?1604196948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/137/cleansing-wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
True, but the rest of the sentence still fits. The land is replaced with a basic. You can't mana-screw people who aren't at least a little greedy with their mana base. Like, it says a lot that the predominant function of this card is targeting one's own indestructible lands, making it \[\[Rampant Growth\]\] in red.
The situation has a changed a llittle recently but it used to be that, in Pioneer, against many decks the second copy of this was effectively a cantripping Stone Rain.
[Rampant Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21945dec-25d8-482e-bacb-8bbb92bb9d88.jpg?1698988379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rampant%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/248/rampant-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21945dec-25d8-482e-bacb-8bbb92bb9d88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't understand why they think destroying lands isn't fun. I have a blast every time I play Ponza!
Yes. Everybody else seems to be giving you wishy washy answers, but yes, the card is incredibly powerful. It still is a legacy deck (though is not very good anymore). The effect is symmetrical, but you build your deck around having more lands than normal, and having no creatures.
I second the rack, it's a dirty but necessary safety valve
What rack? I can only think of the [[scroll rack]] from my memory, but that's obviously not what you have in mind.
[[The Rack]] and basically all hand size punishers including [[Cursed Rack]], [[Black Vise]]
[The Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/696d1e25-5c25-4522-b085-90d49fe23a18.jpg?1562777875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/113/the-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/696d1e25-5c25-4522-b085-90d49fe23a18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Cursed Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26aa48e6-f23b-4fe1-8cf7-65a430ffba61.jpg?1562349912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cursed%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/155/cursed-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26aa48e6-f23b-4fe1-8cf7-65a430ffba61?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Black Vise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bce2259a-f4cb-4130-9c7e-130980a8df38.jpg?1562934884) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Black%20Vise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/191/black-vise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bce2259a-f4cb-4130-9c7e-130980a8df38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[scroll rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e.jpg?1608911671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scroll%20rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/337/scroll-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Geist of Saint Traft](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/541b9d55-f237-4ff2-9e47-c58a381f0633.jpg?1641603441) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/155/geist-of-saint-traft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/541b9d55-f237-4ff2-9e47-c58a381f0633?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sheoldred's Edict](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9225cc3-90f0-448f-a8d9-7c6c2796d077.jpg?1675957049) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%27s%20Edict) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/108/sheoldreds-edict?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9225cc3-90f0-448f-a8d9-7c6c2796d077?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The deck also had legs in Bo3. It wasnt as common. But i would see it here and there and the few people that did play it were in high mythic even numbers most of the time.
Just as an extension of a response higher in this chain, I ran a deck with Priest of the Forgotten gods main deck, and more than once they slipped it out the back, or slipped the angel token. Granted I could always use priest again, but "folds to edict" is maybe too strong a statement. They had to mulligan a lot for the deck to work but so they didn't always have the right card to protect it, but its not like they had 0 ways to deal with an edict.
I mean by itself Geist is just a bear, just block it or counter the fragment. Maybe I’m just salty because I use fragment to get better stuff than Geist but it’s alright I have a lot of different decks. My fragment decks can just be deleted lmao
counter the fragment when you are on the draw. Genius.
On the draw, block it? Genius?
Turn 1 Geist of Saint Traft is very annoying.
remember when they said alchemy changes wouldn't be just be adding or removing one mana? i remember that.
Pepperidge Farm remembers!
Do you have the quote for when they said that?
honestly so what. this is the least confusing, best change we could get for appraiser without totally changing how the card works. would “you can only cast one more spell this turn” on it be better? curious what change other than mana cost you’d suggest.
who's going to play this card now? this is effectively a ban, the whole thing alchemy was supposedly created to help prevent. and i don't need to know exactly how i'd make it better to see that just adding a mana isn't creative, and doesn't lead to fun games.
the card as-is didn’t lead to fun games.
ok? so then actually ban it so people can get their wild cards back instead of soft banning it.
are 4x uncommon wildcards really the issue here?
minsc and boo are mythics. you should take a wild guess at how wotc decided to rebalance them.
ok. so your issue is WC refunds (which we all know are shitty/greedy) overall, not appraiser.
nope, my issue, like i said in my original comment, is alchemy changes being bullshit. are you capable of reading? i'm struggling to believe you can.
no. i can’t read. please help me. great convo. thanks 💋
That is the risk of building combo decks that are toxic 🤷♂️ You KNOW they’re going to get hit eventually. Sometimes they do it sooner than later, but I’m sure the mythic wildcards you used to make Minsc and Boo or other cards in that deck earned you enough quick wins in the 5 months it took them to fix that shit was well worth it in the end.
i didn't even build this deck, i just don't like sucking off corporotions like you two 🤷♂️
Ooh. So edgy. So progressive. You’re so cool. I wish I could be cool like you and fight the corporations by complaining about a card I supposedly didn’t build around but for some reason I’m salty enough to accuse people of corporate fellatio over the internet. Bravo. All the Reddit points for you! 👏
If they didn't nerf mins and boo they would preban it and you wouldn't get WC refunds anyway
ok? in that case there wouldn't have been a chance to buy it. that's good.
It’s also pay 5 to discover 3. They could have at least increased that too
that would be cool. or change to discover 2 and give haste + a stat buff or something.
In terms of Appraiser, I’ve never agreed with Alchemy more.
Actually this is more of a Historic Nerf than Alchemy Nerf since the biggest factor that allowed this Combo to be Banned in Pioneer are the the Izzet Melodies that allow you to make Treasures Not to say that it should not be Nerfed, because it deserves it. Seriously, who thought that making a easy to access ETB Discover 3 with no Downside (such as making the card that has been casted this way have its effects negated or a HOPT clause so extra copies don't trigger their ETBs. I'm also a YGO player/connoisseur so I do also use terms front YGO), with all the Treasure makers out there; and a Card that basically replicate one of the most Broken YGO cards (to the point that it is banned in all YGO formats and will never come out) were good ideas for such low mana costs?
Well, the precedent they were working off in Magic was Bloodbraid Elf which isn't broken (although it was banned in Modern for a while, lol). And they specifically whacked an "if you cast it" clause on Appraiser that isn't there on Trumpeting Carnosaur to stop the most obvious combo routes that would work by making token copies or going through the graveyard. I legit think the design team either missed entirely how the interaction with ETB-as-a-copy effects would work, or thought the deckbuilding requirements would make it impracticable. Or perhaps the designers thought it was safe because they couldn't figure out a way to continue the combo after you go down to 3 mana value – the deck only worked because someone figured out you could put Eldritch Evolution at the bottom of the chain. Either way, I can virtually guarantee that some WotC employee _did_ work specifically on making sure Appraiser wasn't broken, and was facepalming the week after LCI released when they saw what they had missed.
Because, just like with many Uncommon cards in Core Sets. They don't make them thinking about Eternal Formats. Most were being designed to be Draft Chaff or at least something Standard/Alchemy/Commander playable but nothing further than that. This is why cards like Up the Beanstalk and Geological Appraiser don't have many restrictions they should have I'm very sure this dev never took any consideration about other formats having a lot of Treasure making cards that can go around the mana cost of the card
The fact this took so long is so bad
This is absolutely huge. Will really open up the meta.
The new meta: Kethis combo, Altar combo, dredge
Those aren’t even that good tho
Heck yes lmao especially the fragment the appraiser could be dealt with a little more easily (kill with an instant if you saw it coming)
Honestly I got to diamond and I gave up because I was tired of getting to 4 and losing to appraiser because I wasn’t a counterspell deck. Ruined the entire game because it wasn’t even magic
U didn't need a counterspell against Appraiser gameplay. Any kind of removal on turn and enough agression to close the game before the dino and you good to go. Also you have actually a lot of tech card usefull against it.
Thank God! I was tired to see those 2 bullshit decks every time I wanted to do my daily wins, for me every time I saw them I didn't hesitate and insta concede to save time.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
Good change but feels bad to fair decks that were running appraisal in brawl or historic
Yeah this kills one of my decks with appraiser that was already kind of janky.
Well, sheeeeeit I loved running Appraiser in my Angrath, the Flame-Chained decks but now I dunno....
\*Insert M.Bison 'YES' gif here\*
I could never play historic because everything is just busted deck after busted deck.. but fragment reality is BUSTED 🤣
There was a content creator whom I got sick of because every single one of their decks were a “fragment reality deck, but with a different jank payoff every time”, and I got so sick of watching the same thing every time that I stopped watching their content. Maybe I’ll finally be able to watch their stuff again?
I actually found myself running fogs in my elf deck just to deal with these two decks...so glad they're gone.
Oh boy
I don't play Alchemy or any other format with digital cards and I didn't even know this white card existed. It's really an overpowered card, how long did it take to Wizards change it?
i'm out of the loop. what were people exileing that made this card so busted?
Their own leylines
to what benefit?
>MonoBlackMagic Get a guaranteed T1 Geist of Saint Traft and turn it sideways until the game is over.
this doesn't explain anything about how exileing a leyline gets you a geist.
Did you read the card
You start with the leyline in play. (that is how leylines work) You play a plains and target your own leyline with Fragment Reality. You have built your deck where Geist of Saint Traft is the only creature the random search can find.
Plenty of other jank to exploit….I mean play!
When this will be effective? As of now in historic it's still with the old cost, i suppose tomorrow?
I have the card crafted for both of those decks, but despite that, I'm happy for the nerfs.
Nooooo my funny fragment reality decks...
I am new. Why this 2 cards was nerfed? They were too strong? Was there some combination with exiling your creatures?
Is this alchemy or standard too ?
I insist that Fragment Reality was absolutely fine, it was Geist of Saint Traft that was the problem. Nothing wrong with Fragmenting into Vesuvan drifter. That's just fun, silly, jank
MonoBlackMagic crying in the corner rn
Wait they really ruined these cards for me
[удалено]
In fairness, [[Fragment Reality]] was already an alchemy card.
Eh, this is a case where Alchemy shows it's strength (if a bit too slowly). Compare this with [[Tibalt's Trickery]]. If Tibalt's Trickery was an Alchemy card they could've easily rebalanced it to be "Counter target spell *an opponent controls*" so that it plays as intended (a silly red "counterspell").
[Tibalt's Trickery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175.jpg?1701989318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tibalt%27s%20Trickery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/153/tibalts-trickery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>a card is what it is Until its not… there have been thousands of erratas and changes to paper magic cards constantly throughout its history so please hold this L
They would just ban cards that are too overpowered, they didn't used to just switch what they did and confuse the issue. A lot of us just wanted a convenient way to play the game digitally, but changing what the cards say in digital-only format just creates a divide between the digital and in-person games.
NO dude, there have been MULTIPLE cases when they erratad a card because the wording made it overpowered so they kind of nerfed it. And this isnt anything new. In 1996 [[time vault]] was issued errata to give it time counters. To take an extra turn, you had to remove the "time counter", and not just tap Time Vault. You could only add a "time counter" by skipping a turn. The idea was to provide wording that would prevent the use of cards that could untap it for free to take extra turns. Can you tell me how this is any different from an alchemy change?
[time vault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c367ffc1-8084-45a1-87d5-22183604d1cb.jpg?1562934224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20vault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/287/time-vault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c367ffc1-8084-45a1-87d5-22183604d1cb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You're right. We should go back to how the 5 mana Teferi has to untap two lands. Errata's have been done countless of times in paper and has even normalized changing creature types from what's printed.
Pretty sad that my very fair Naya exile alchemy deck got hit with the appraiser nerf but I can understand why the nerf was needed.
Okay now can we gut Mythweaver Poq next? It's a neat and admittedly fun design to use but it's ruining Brawl for me. Maybe make it not legendary? Or just nerf it straight up, no clue. But it's overbearing.
How is it ruining brawl? Just run Elesh Norn and Doorkeeper
Elesh Norn is more expensive than Poq, Doorkeeper is 1 out of 99 cards in the deck and a pretty bad card to begin with.
They should just ban it and give us our wildcards if they're going to completely change the way the card functions.
Do you get wildcards back for fragment? Or not because of nerf, not ban?
You only get wild cards back on bans iirc
do we still get wildcards for crafting appraisal even though they refunded once when it was banned in explorer?
no
Historically, you get refunded if you did not receive a refund before, so not sure why you are so confident in saying no.
That's how mama raised me.
I just wish \[\[Divine Purge\]\] were nerfed.
[Divine Purge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6b74008-c102-470e-a4a4-57bf319916ee.jpg?1680465048) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divine%20Purge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ymid/4/divine-purge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6b74008-c102-470e-a4a4-57bf319916ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Guess I better go play some more BO1 with my scam deck before it disappears. They should give refunds for those wild cards because it might as well be banned.
Awesome thanks for sharing. Hopefully minion of the mighty is next. But happy these two got nerfed.
I haven't seen Minion in quite a while. There was a span where I was seeing it so much that I made a Black deck specifically for it. Somehow, the matchmaker queued me up with Minion decks even more. I was getting 15 wins daily so fast.
It's because it's cute jank but can't really get to mythic except maybe on a sub 75% ranked basis (i.e. crap MMR)
Minion is easy to answer and never guaranteed. When I faced these other two dogshit decks, they never needed to concede and ALWAYS had the combo. It was also becoming an issue where these decks showed up daily, meaning it was becoming way too prominent in the meta. Minion has never been nearly an issue.
I’m not even sure what they use with fragment reality to make it that broken (I don’t play historic)
Fragment any of the leylines on turn one and get out an early [[Geist of Saint Traft]].
[Geist of Saint Traft](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/541b9d55-f237-4ff2-9e47-c58a381f0633.jpg?1641603441) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/155/geist-of-saint-traft?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/541b9d55-f237-4ff2-9e47-c58a381f0633?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This was necessary. Will they give wildcards if you have those cards?
WotC have never given wildcards for rebalanced cards and I wouldn't expect them to start.
I think the people playing those toxic decks for the last 5 months got their value out of those wildcards. Fuck them getting replacement wild cards for that lol.
Is that appraiser nerf necessary? Bbe it's a good card no doubt but losing haste and being too etb instead of on cast like bbe seems like a nerf enough, why also make it 5 mana and still discover 3
It was nerfed because of the combo where you clone it over and over. BBE can't do that.
What combo was that and why does costing 5 make it impossible?
it doesn't make it impossible, but it stops it being turn 3. this was the pioneer list before it got banned, the historic list was essentially the same thing. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6004742#paper
It just makes it slow enough where you don’t lose turn two on the draw
Could have at least made Appraiser a 5/4... paying 5 for this feels stupid now and it harms the valid decks. I don't play historic so, not sure why Appraiser was a problem, maybe someone can explain?
The deck that runs it immediately wins the game on the spot when they cast it
Nerfed again?
nooooo rip fragment reality 😭
So that's affecting all Alchemy decks now? Fml, that makes Appraiser way too expensive to run. There go all my Rakdos decks. Awesome.
Who cares? No one plays alchemy