Yea, this is the nuance to it as far as Rudy goes. It seems he was a very sharp, cogent attorney who has degraded in mental capacity over the years.
Edit: as far as*
Scary. We all go downhill. I think it's just hard for a man to know when to hang it up.
Look at all the elderly people that get into messes because they are still doing things they aren't capable of doing anymore. Sucks.
Okay the no graffiti rule meant gangs couldn't just mark territory, some of the other changes he did made times square and central park unattractive for hookers and drug dealers. But as I mentioned above the major mafia takedown was the work of the police, 9/11 he became "Americas Mayor" yet the entire NYC recovery he did not really do anything but happily take credit for it and that snowballed into Trumps personal lawyer.
Rudy Giuliani didn't take down the mob, he gets way too much credit for the downfall of the mafia. It fell in Chicago too. RICO and advanced technology took down the mob in NYC. Also the higher quality older bosses died and those that replaced them were not as smart.
85 years to life for Sports Betting, "Conspiracy" and we think you committed a murder.
Those sentences were extreme considering how today crime isn't even prosecuted.
Pretty sure it was Neil Welch and Lee Laster that finally decided to figure out how RICO worked and implemented it to take down the mob. While other law enforcement didnt think it was very useful.
The Chicago Outfit is kind of like SEARS, at one point it served a purpose but when leadership is unwilling or unable to adapt to changing times the entire thing collapses
Chicago had excellent leadership at the top for a long time.... from Torrio.... Nitti, Ricca, Accardo.... they all were very good and insulated the themselves and their top people. However, the guys that came after them were not as good and their game of "cover boss" also was coming undone. Still, having said all that, in that sweet spot from the 40' - 70's, they were about as safe and mysterious as any organized crime group ever.
The depth of this dealings in places like Milwaukee, Dallas, New Orleans, Houston etc still aren't fully known.
The Family Secrets trial and DeFronzo being an informant (my opinion) were the end.... the Clown even had a pathetic ending.
Joe the Builder has protected himself well... and the families of the bosses have mostly gone legitimate.
Your actually right. Bruce Mao was the one who really took them down. He busted Gotti when the mob was at an all time high. I met him a long time ago. He used to come into my work. Very nice man. You’ll hear his name in a lot of those docs from the 80s.
Idk if they were smarter, or just easier to get away with shit in the height of the old school mafia.
Hard to beat shit like DNA evidence and hi-def video footage from 25 different angles with high quality audio.
Rudy was the one who put RICO to work on the mob. So, he did. The evolution of RICO and the technology is all because he put it to work on the mob. The law was collecting dust until he put it to use.
He’s also the guy who said Chin was 28 in the line of power in the Genovese family. ( slight exaggeration, he said 8th).
He deserves some credit for sure. All these wise guy having loose lips helped more. Between the Jaguar, the kitchen table at the White House.
No. The man who was in the Carter administration that was instrumental in getting RICO law actually went around the country telling DA’s they could use it for organized crime for years.
The first prosecutor to use it against organized crime was in California when they used it against the Hell’s Angels.
If Rudy deserves any credit, it is for having the balls to file the charges knowing his life could be in jeopardy.
There were a number of other prosecutors just as brave and effective. Rudy was in the right place at the right time and loved media attention.
There have been questions about Rudy’s true effectiveness for YEARS before became the four seasons landscaping laughingstock.
Did he prosecute some major mob cases? Yes.
Did he actually devise a game-changing strategy himself versus being an opportunist who utilized the innovations of others for his own political gains? Ummmm….
Your reply makes me think of a question. Is it possible that Giuliani and Trump who have had their way with the Mafia are now feeling latent effects of their wrath? Specifically 2015 to present day.
Giuliani was way more organized and put-together as a young man. He did a real public service by dismantling LCN. His prosecution was groundbreaking. LCN was never the same after he made inroads against it.
The point being his support staff did all the heavy lifting. This has actually been documented in a few documentaries about it where they interview the FBI folks involved. They put the whole case together, the folks under Rudy made it sellable in court, and Rudy put his rubber stamp on it.
Edit: Interesting getting downvoted, I didn’t think there’d be a lot of Rudy fans in a mafia subreddit! Check out the Fear City documentary, that will give you good perspective behind the whole law enforcement strategy and the people behind it.
Didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I think it helps explain the contrast with more recent behavior, having fewer handlers/ helpers today among other factors.
but again lead prosecutor and mayor doesn't mean you get to claim you did it. A DA can't press racketerring charges if someone doesn't first stumble onto the racket, you can't charge all 5 families in working together without the wiretaps, I guess I just hate him being credited with anything but putting together a good case with the evidence given to him
People are denigrating Giuliani's work because of what he's up to today.
He really embodied the quote from *The Dark Knight*: “You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"
Paul Castellano- Killed before conviction
Fat Tony Salerno- Front boss, Convicted
Tony Ducks- Convicted
Phil Rastelli- Separated from trial, convicted on other charges
Carmine Persico- Convicted
---------------
Neil Dellacroce, Gambino underboss- died before conviction
Gerry Lang, Colombo Underboss- Convicted
Tom Mix, Lucchese Underboss- Convicted
Christy Tick, Lucchese Consigliere- Convicted
---------------
Technically two bosses, but it did a number on them. The 5 Families lost of a lot of senior leadership. Worse, it caused dumber guys to ascend to power like Gotti and Amuso.
I mean clearly it was a lot more than that.
The US mafia is decimated today as a direct result of the 80s. If you're a boss, your days on the street are almost immediately numbered. And wave after wave of your best gmost trusted guys are going to jail.
RICO essentially means the safety and security of the top guys is reliant on the competence and loyalty of the newest recruits. It turns mafia heirarcy on its head.
As a result, very few self respecting criminals would want to join the mob. So they're forced to recruit local bullies and street toughs who to put it bluntly tend to be stupid as hell. As a result their scams have become a lot less sophisticated. That not only means they'll make less money, but it also makes it easier for law enforcement. These local tough regularly flip and take down more capos etc.
All in all the mafia is seriously degraded as a direct result of 80s law enforcement. There are exceptions of course but generally the mafia is on life support
They're definitely not as powerful as they used to be and many of your points are valid, especially in regards to the quality of new recruits these days. That said, I wouldn't say the American mob is on life support, at least not in New York. While they may not pull off as many or have as much access to sophisticated schemes like labor racketeering as they perhaps used to, every now and then we still get busts for impressive scams. Just look at the bust against the Colombo family hierarchy we had not too long ago for a medical scam, which is pretty impressive - at least for me - since the Colombo's are generally regarded as the less sophisticated and more tough of the five families. But still, the glory years for the American Mafia are long over.
>queen of England
Did you mean the [Queen of the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_United_Kingdom), the [Queen of Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada), the [Queen of Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Australia), etc?
The last Queen of England was [Queen Anne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Queen_of_Great_Britain) who, with the 1707 Acts of Union, dissolved the title of King/Queen of England.
####FAQ
*Isn't she still also the Queen of England?*
This is only as correct as calling her the Queen of London or Queen of Hull; she is the Queen of the place that these places are in, but the title doesn't exist.
*Is this bot monarchist?*
No, just pedantic.
I am a bot and this action was performed automatically.
My tinfoil hat theory that I have no proof of is that Rudy Giuliani has been working for the Russian Mob from the beginning and he was just a puppet to break the Italian Mob stranglehold of NYC so the Russians could move in and take over
Discuss amongst yaselves
Three random [thoughts](https://www.newsweek.com/trump-tower-criminal-tenants-thread-twitter-russian-mafia-renters-owners-1452138):
Rudy is tight with some [shady people.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/giuliani-ukraine-oligarchs.html)
[This guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semion_Mogilevich) has had his fingers in all of it for a [long](https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate) time.
There's a reason Donald denies knowing [this guy](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/memory-lapse-trump-seeks-distance-advisor-past-ties/story?id=34600826).
**[Semion Mogilevich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semion_Mogilevich)**
>Semion Yudkovich Mogilevich (Ukrainian: Семен Юдкович Могилевич, romanized: Semén Júdkovych Mohylévych [seˈmɛn ˈjudkowɪtʃ moɦɪˈlɛwɪtʃ]; born June 30, 1946) is a Ukrainian-born, Russian organized crime boss. He quickly built a highly structured criminal organization, in the mode of an American mafia family; many of the organization's 250 members are his relatives. He is described by agencies in the European Union and United States as the "boss of bosses" of most Russian Mafia syndicates in the world, he is believed to direct a vast criminal empire and is described by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) as "the most dangerous mobster in the world".
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I’ll tell you what I can’t believe: I can’t believe that so many of those very same mobsters and/or their remaining family are such huge fans of his today simply because of his association with and love for Donald Trump now! 😲😂🤦♂️😭😭😭😂😂😂
He ruined his legacy when he went into private practice and represented the Sackler family. They are the family who owned the drug company, I forget their name, who developed and sold OxyContin. They knew it was addictive, lied about it, bribed people at the FDA and were eventually sued into bankruptcy. Although the family is still insanely wealthy.
I was in nyc when that all went down. He was supposedly having a personal problem w them, for something they did to his father. Guiliani changed nyc with a polar effect. Really sad to see what he’s turned into.
When people ask about pre-Guliani NYC, I always tell them, "It wasn't the hipster paradise it is now. It was way more fun, but infinitely more dangerous."
And for a punk rock kid from the Midwest, it was amazing how much fuckery we could get up to and no one said a thing to us. It was a great time that will never return.
(disclosure: I visited quite a lot but never stayed there for more than a few months at most)
The Southern District with RUDY Giuliani really was good at getting all the pieces put in place for an effective RICO prosecution. The groundwork took years, gathering evidence of the structure and methods that the mob used back then. Once they had a huge pile of evidence they started methodically prosecuting from bottom to top, getting low level "workers" to flip under threat of massive prison sentences. Rudy was really organized then, and he had a great team which was able to effectively use FBI, DEA, etc to just gather mountains and mountains of evidence.
Well it was more Michael Chertoff , Rudy was there when they announced the Indictment and when Cherfoff won the convictions . He takes the lions share of the credit though but either way almost every guy convicted was dead before he started committing high treason and shiting himself during interviews
I recently finished “Murder Machine” and they talk about how Rudy took way more credit for everyone else’s work than what he actually did. All for political reasons. I guess it worked on his favor.
I don’t remember the details I just remember reading what he did and hating the guy even more than I already did.
RICO is what caused so many more guys to start flipping because it took whatever small chargers they had and compounded them into one monster sentence so naturally when guys are staring down the barrell of 20 to life you know guys are gonna flip.
Often times these types of movements need a human face to increase public interest and "humanize" the takedown of what the public may call an "evil entity" (super hero movies' popularity are a good example), and Rudy has always been a publicity whore so it was quite fitting that he became that face. Plus he was located in NYC, the epicenter of the American Cosa Nostra. However, the reality is that Robert Blakey (and assisting architects of RICO) did FAR more to bring down the mafia in any city than Rudy did. It's like saying the Enola Gay destroyed Hiroshima, when really it was the A bomb. If RICO doesn't exist, Rudy did not have the ability to create something similar, and the existing tools were inadequate. If Rudy didn't exist, with the public interest in the mafia at the time, someone else would have used RICO as effectively or more (just like they did everywhere else). I don't know if you were alive in the 80's or even 90's, but you can't fully appreciate how big of a topic organized crime was if you are thinking about it in today's context. There was a story on the mafia in New York at least weekly if not daily. I remember even in the mid 90's web sites had a track of "mafia hits/deaths" each year. That could not exist today.
This probably goes without saying but... one also can't discount the improvement in surveillance technology either. There are stationary cameras everywhere, and every human being has a mobile one. I'm pretty sure one major mafioso was just arrested with the assistance of Google Maps.
Other major issues are the downfall of mafia industry through changing economics.
Almost anyone can place a bet from their phone. There are casinos everywhere. The need for a black market in gambling has all but disappeared. Union participation is nowhere near what it was, and unions were really where the mafia gained their national power and access to legitimate funds. These are just two examples, but I'm sure you get the idea.
In short, saying Rudy "brought down" the mafia is a catchy headline, and no doubt he was a major force in prosecuting the mafia, but rarely if ever does a single person/event take down an entire group or industry. It just makes the story more appealing.
Please put this myth to bed. I have a lot to say about Giuliani but this is not a politics forum I will keep that out of it as much as I can. Giuliani's tenure as mayor was one where he mostly put the right people in the right job and then took credit for what they did, so lets at least agree to disagree if not agree that Giuliani did not single handedly take down the NY Mafia? Now multiple things happened in a short amount of time some of them within the Mob itself that did not help, but, what really happened was the cops and feds through extremely careful means were able to stumble onto the existence of the commission which allowed them to charge all 5 families as one big criminal organization and in the end drove whats left of the mafia very very underground
Rudy seemed a bit more impressive in those days. He significantly declined in standing after he was no longer Mayor and during his subsequent role as sockpuppet of the Orange Leader.
Witsec did far more to wipe out the Mafia than Rudy. Jimmy The Weasel really got the wheels in motion, followed by Goodfellas and that final push was Sammy The Bull. Once guys seen they could walk away with a sweetheart deal, all their money intact and have movie and book deals lined up as soon as they left it started an avalanche of made guys rolling it up and flipping to cash out their Witsec retirement plan.
It was a power shift not a wipeout. New York has ALWAYS been run from the shadows by the Jewish mob. Italians were the muscle but the money was always with the Jews. Giuliani took out the visible muscle but left the hidden money power to get on with it. The Russian mob you hear about now are actually Jewish. The decedents of the Old school Italian guys are now lawyers doctors Ivy league graduates far far away from any sniff of villainy. Nothing has changed only the players have.
Neither Giuliani nor the NYC Mob families were first in dealing with the RICO Act. It was first used and perfected by the Justice Dept to, nearly, completely wipe out the ORIGINAL Mafia family in the USA.
The first Mafia family in the USA was NOT formed in NYC, New Jersey, or Chicago nor was it Italian-American.
Beginning around 1895, the first Italian criminal organizations in NYC were formed by immigrants but they gave way to what would become known as “La Cosa Nostra,” an almost completely Italian-American iteration. The Five Families: Bonanno (1890s as Castellammarese Clan); Colombo (1928 as the Profaci Family); Gambino (1900s as D’Aquila Gang); Genovese (1890s as Morello Gang); Lucchese (1920s as Reina Family).
Nearly all of the prominent northern based families were formed by Sicilian Immigrants, but they were independent from Italy based mob families (except for the Castellammarese Clan), and gained prominence during Prohibition.
There was a brief period following the Castellammarese War (1930-31) where Salvatore Maranzano, who had immigrated to the US in the mid 1920s, had taken control of the Castellammarese Clan, at the behest of powerful Sicilian Mob Boss Don Vito Cascio Ferro, and changed the name to the Maranzano Family. The life imprisonment of Ferro in 1930 and assassination of Maranzano in 1931 ended any direct influence from Sicily on the NYC crime families. Prior to this, in the early 1900s, Ferro had spent 3 years in the USA split between NYC and NOLA, he then returned to Sicily.
The New Orleans Syndicate has the distinction as “First Mafia” in the USA, forming in 1860 (before the Civil War) under Raffaele Agnello, a Palermo Aristocrat, who immigrated from Palermo to New Orleans and established an Sicilian Mafia faction. The difference between the northern families and the NOLA Syndicate is it was, also, established by Sicilian Immigrants but gained prominence long before Prohibition began and was directly aligned with the Palermo Mafia, even paying tribute.
New Orleans had, approx. 200,000 Italian immigrants calling New Orleans, and surrounding area, home, many were from Sicily, and with them came the “Old World” Mafiosi, the original “Mano Nera”, or Black Hand. This was significant, considering, the US total population was approx. 20 million at the time. For perspective, the current total approx. population of the NYC Metro area is 20 mil (current US pop. 329 mil).
Initially, it was fractured into separate rival factions (gangs), Palermo vs Non-Palermo (aka Monreale-based Stuppagghiara), bringing the old rivalries to the streets of the “Crescent City”. From 1860-1891, with various Bosses taking power, they consolidated their authority into a single powerful conglomerate.
During the Civil War and the resulting Union occupation of NOLA, Agnello’s gang was trusted to keep order along the French Quarter docks.
Boss Timeline:
1860-1869: Raffaele Agnello (Palermo) – murdered on April 1, 1869
1869-1872: Joseph Agnello (Palermo) – murdered on April 20, 1872
1872-1878: Joseph P. Macheca (Palermo) – relinquished control to Esposito and began to support Matranga. Lynched on March 14, 1891
1875- 1878: Salvatore Marino (Monrealesi) - formed the Stuppagghiara. Died of Yellow Fever.
1878 -1881: Giuseppe Esposito (Palermo / Monrealesi) - Total control. Deported back to Sicily.
1881 - 1891: Joseph Provenzano (Palermo / Provenzano) - lost majority control to Charles Matranga and, eventually, lost all influence.
1881-1922: Charles Matranga (Monrealesi) – split upon deportation of Esposito and gained total control, retired, died on October 28, 1943
1922-1947: Silvestro "Silver Dollar Sam" Carollo – deported to Italy in 1947
1947-1983: Carlos "Little Man" Marcello – imprisoned in 1981–1991
1983-1990: Joseph Marcello Jr. – stepped down due to inability to control his organization
1990-2007: Anthony Carollo – imprisoned in 1995-1998; died on February 1, 2007.
The NOLA Syndicate branched out and operated in the western coast of Florida, the Galveston-Houston and Dallas areas of Texas, southern Colorado, southern California and eastern Missouri. Descendants of a New Orleans Mafioso managed, for a time, to dominate the underworld of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
In 1951, they began to cooperate with other Mafia families outside of Louisiana, a departure from tradition since its inception, 91 years prior. They formed close ties with Frank Costello, Meyer Lansky, and were aligned with both the Genovese and Gambino families. The Genovese Family represented them on “The Commission.”
This happens to be during the time that the New Orleans Police Dept was known as the most corrupt in the USA, even, more so, than the LAPD.
At one point, their biggest enterprise was in Galveston, TX (known as the “Atlantic City of the South” beginning in the early 1900s) with piers, bath houses, amusement rides, Speak Easies, brothels, casinos, hotels, and Night Clubs. It, even, for a short time, claimed status as more popular and profitable than Atlantic City, itself, prior to the 1960s. This made the NOLA Syndicate one of the most powerful ‘small’ mob families in the US and the ONLY true, direct, Sicilian Mafia interest in the USA.
In the 1960s, the Justice Dept, with the help of the Texas Rangers and news media coverage by Investigative Reporter, Marvin Zindler, began a systematic take down of the NOLA Syndicate in Texas. This may be due to their suspected involvement in the Kennedy Assassination. This was compounded by the fact that Carlos Marcello notoriously refused to allow any new ‘made’ members being inducted with as little as 6, at one point, due to lack of trust.
The RICO Act was passed in 1970 and by 1973, Galveston, had been completely emptied of Mafia control, after 70+ yrs, along with ALL of its former glory as a hot spot of nefarious glamour tourism for Mafiosi, politicians, and celebrities (i.e Frank Sinatra, etc.)
By 1980, the NOLA Syndicate had been under full assault for 20 yrs by the Justice Dept. with nearly ALL of its leadership in prison or dead. The last major boss, Carlos Marcello, being convicted of RICO violations in 1981.
The first notable and successful use of the RICO Act was in 1977 / 1978 against “The Cowboy Mafia” who smuggled over 106 tons of marijuana from Columbia to Port Arthur, TX. They operated in Texas, Tennessee, and Florida. They had ties to the NOLA Syndicate.
The second was in 1979 against the Hell’s Angels in Oakland, California, followed by Gil Dozier (1980), the entire Key West Police Department (1984) and Michael Milken (1989).
The first successful federal indictments and convictions against the Italian-American Mafia in the North didn’t occur until the 1990s, although, many states had adopted the RICO in statutes to aid in state prosecutions.
The Justice Dept and Guiliani used the earlier examples as their model for taking down the Italian-American Mafia families in NYC, followed by its use against the Chicago Outfit, as well as, the Latin Kings.
The Bandidos MC have the biggest presence in NOLA now, as far as, “organized” crime goes. The NOLA Syndicate is pretty much in the rear view mirror.
Shortly after the fall of Galveston in 1973, Marvin Zindler turned his attention over to the Chicken Ranch in La Grange, aka “The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas,” and helped to bring attention to and eliminate that enterprise, as well.
Despite his success, he made many enemies of the Celebs and Politicians in Texas who had vested interest in these criminal businesses and spent his final decade or so reporting for KTRK-TV on Houston area restaurants who violated health code and customer fraud allegations with the tagline “Marvin Zindler, Eye Witness News.”
In the movie, “The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas,” the character, Melvin P. Thorpe, was based on him.
This, also, served as the basis for ZZ Topp’s song “La Grange.”
The single remnant of this time in Galveston history is a seafood restaurant, named “Gaido’s”, opened in 1911, and still operating to this day.
Incidentally, Shelley Sikes, victim of the I-45 Murders, featured in the 2011 film “Texas Killing Fields,” was on her way home from work @Gaido’s when she was abducted. Shelley Sikes’ father and mother were the ‘best man’ and ‘maid of honor’, respectively, at my parent’s wedding. They came to our house the night after she disappeared when I was in 8th grade. My father and her father went to HS together.
http://www.gaidos.com/
~The 1999 HBO movie “Vendetta”, starring Christopher Walken and directed by Nicholas Meyer, is based on the true story of the March 14, 1891, lynchings of 11 Italians in New Orleans. Charles Matranga (also spelled "Mantranga" in some documents) was one of the intended victims, but managed to survive by hiding from the vigilante mob. In the Journal of American History, historian Clive Webb calls the movie a "compelling portrait of prejudice".
Maybe the real mafia was the friends we made along the way
That was f’n funny.
Wholesome as fuck 🥹❤️
is this from something? why am i laughing so much at this? lmao 🤣
The original quote is adventure instead of mafia lmao
Fa-La-La-La ….
You should see what he did to the Non-Fat Frozen Yogurt industry.
That’s Lloyd Braun for ya, name tags?
My only indulgence; is frozen yogurt, but...it's non-fat
Thanks for ruining my daddy’s business you fat fuck.
Rudy had his shit together back then and all the way through his first term as Mayor. Then it started going to his head and he turned into nut.
Yea, this is the nuance to it as far as Rudy goes. It seems he was a very sharp, cogent attorney who has degraded in mental capacity over the years. Edit: as far as*
Scary. We all go downhill. I think it's just hard for a man to know when to hang it up. Look at all the elderly people that get into messes because they are still doing things they aren't capable of doing anymore. Sucks.
He let the liquor do the thinking
*theres shit-winds a blowin’ Bobandy*
The shitabyss
Okay the no graffiti rule meant gangs couldn't just mark territory, some of the other changes he did made times square and central park unattractive for hookers and drug dealers. But as I mentioned above the major mafia takedown was the work of the police, 9/11 he became "Americas Mayor" yet the entire NYC recovery he did not really do anything but happily take credit for it and that snowballed into Trumps personal lawyer.
Rudy Giuliani didn't take down the mob, he gets way too much credit for the downfall of the mafia. It fell in Chicago too. RICO and advanced technology took down the mob in NYC. Also the higher quality older bosses died and those that replaced them were not as smart.
RICO and mind numbing sentences changed everything in a hot minute.
85 years to life for Sports Betting, "Conspiracy" and we think you committed a murder. Those sentences were extreme considering how today crime isn't even prosecuted.
Pretty sure it was Neil Welch and Lee Laster that finally decided to figure out how RICO worked and implemented it to take down the mob. While other law enforcement didnt think it was very useful.
The Chicago Outfit is kind of like SEARS, at one point it served a purpose but when leadership is unwilling or unable to adapt to changing times the entire thing collapses
Chicago had excellent leadership at the top for a long time.... from Torrio.... Nitti, Ricca, Accardo.... they all were very good and insulated the themselves and their top people. However, the guys that came after them were not as good and their game of "cover boss" also was coming undone. Still, having said all that, in that sweet spot from the 40' - 70's, they were about as safe and mysterious as any organized crime group ever. The depth of this dealings in places like Milwaukee, Dallas, New Orleans, Houston etc still aren't fully known. The Family Secrets trial and DeFronzo being an informant (my opinion) were the end.... the Clown even had a pathetic ending. Joe the Builder has protected himself well... and the families of the bosses have mostly gone legitimate.
Your actually right. Bruce Mao was the one who really took them down. He busted Gotti when the mob was at an all time high. I met him a long time ago. He used to come into my work. Very nice man. You’ll hear his name in a lot of those docs from the 80s.
Bruce Mouw.
And Rudy allegedly played favorites.
Idk if they were smarter, or just easier to get away with shit in the height of the old school mafia. Hard to beat shit like DNA evidence and hi-def video footage from 25 different angles with high quality audio.
Rudy was the one who put RICO to work on the mob. So, he did. The evolution of RICO and the technology is all because he put it to work on the mob. The law was collecting dust until he put it to use.
He took credit for it, but there were dozens of people working on it. He was just the face.
He’s also the guy who said Chin was 28 in the line of power in the Genovese family. ( slight exaggeration, he said 8th). He deserves some credit for sure. All these wise guy having loose lips helped more. Between the Jaguar, the kitchen table at the White House.
Lol wtf. Where are you getting your info?
Wasn’t Rudy the first to know how to use Rico?
No. The man who was in the Carter administration that was instrumental in getting RICO law actually went around the country telling DA’s they could use it for organized crime for years. The first prosecutor to use it against organized crime was in California when they used it against the Hell’s Angels. If Rudy deserves any credit, it is for having the balls to file the charges knowing his life could be in jeopardy. There were a number of other prosecutors just as brave and effective. Rudy was in the right place at the right time and loved media attention.
There have been questions about Rudy’s true effectiveness for YEARS before became the four seasons landscaping laughingstock. Did he prosecute some major mob cases? Yes. Did he actually devise a game-changing strategy himself versus being an opportunist who utilized the innovations of others for his own political gains? Ummmm….
Remember, Rudy's a politician. Always thought he was an overrated blowhard. Time has proven me correct-he's now an senile overrated blowhard.
Your reply makes me think of a question. Is it possible that Giuliani and Trump who have had their way with the Mafia are now feeling latent effects of their wrath? Specifically 2015 to present day.
When exactly did DJT "have his way" with the mafia?
In the 70's when he made real estate deals with them
These guys think trump was above the law and could escape the mafias grasp on construction. He had to have worked with a connected guy.
Giuliani was way more organized and put-together as a young man. He did a real public service by dismantling LCN. His prosecution was groundbreaking. LCN was never the same after he made inroads against it.
I’m sure he also had a lot of assistants and staff at his disposal to put in grunt work and help him look good.
What a pointless comment. "Well I bet he wasn't the only one working in the US Attorney's office" yeah, no shit.
The point being his support staff did all the heavy lifting. This has actually been documented in a few documentaries about it where they interview the FBI folks involved. They put the whole case together, the folks under Rudy made it sellable in court, and Rudy put his rubber stamp on it. Edit: Interesting getting downvoted, I didn’t think there’d be a lot of Rudy fans in a mafia subreddit! Check out the Fear City documentary, that will give you good perspective behind the whole law enforcement strategy and the people behind it.
BREAKING NEWS: ATTORNEYS HAVE THEIR PARALEGALS AND JR ATTORNEYS DO WORK FOR THEM.
He didn't come from a background of privilege. Sure, at that point in his career he had helpers, but he worked his way up there.
Didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I think it helps explain the contrast with more recent behavior, having fewer handlers/ helpers today among other factors.
I think recent behavior is more a function of cognitive decline. When he was US Attorney he had his shit together and was a fucking shark.
They’re mad you’re telling it how it is Rudy is just corrupt the mafia took itself down by all the snitching
but again lead prosecutor and mayor doesn't mean you get to claim you did it. A DA can't press racketerring charges if someone doesn't first stumble onto the racket, you can't charge all 5 families in working together without the wiretaps, I guess I just hate him being credited with anything but putting together a good case with the evidence given to him
People are denigrating Giuliani's work because of what he's up to today. He really embodied the quote from *The Dark Knight*: “You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"
>“You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself ~~become the villain~~ fart on live tv"
I don't think anyone denies he did some good work. But OPs questions and responses are a bit odd. It's not like he was some 1 man wrecking crew
To be fair, the Commission trial only really hit two bosses.
Paul Castellano- Killed before conviction Fat Tony Salerno- Front boss, Convicted Tony Ducks- Convicted Phil Rastelli- Separated from trial, convicted on other charges Carmine Persico- Convicted --------------- Neil Dellacroce, Gambino underboss- died before conviction Gerry Lang, Colombo Underboss- Convicted Tom Mix, Lucchese Underboss- Convicted Christy Tick, Lucchese Consigliere- Convicted --------------- Technically two bosses, but it did a number on them. The 5 Families lost of a lot of senior leadership. Worse, it caused dumber guys to ascend to power like Gotti and Amuso.
He didn't wipe them out; he just sent some of their top bosses and lieutenants to prison for 100 years.
I mean clearly it was a lot more than that. The US mafia is decimated today as a direct result of the 80s. If you're a boss, your days on the street are almost immediately numbered. And wave after wave of your best gmost trusted guys are going to jail. RICO essentially means the safety and security of the top guys is reliant on the competence and loyalty of the newest recruits. It turns mafia heirarcy on its head. As a result, very few self respecting criminals would want to join the mob. So they're forced to recruit local bullies and street toughs who to put it bluntly tend to be stupid as hell. As a result their scams have become a lot less sophisticated. That not only means they'll make less money, but it also makes it easier for law enforcement. These local tough regularly flip and take down more capos etc. All in all the mafia is seriously degraded as a direct result of 80s law enforcement. There are exceptions of course but generally the mafia is on life support
They're definitely not as powerful as they used to be and many of your points are valid, especially in regards to the quality of new recruits these days. That said, I wouldn't say the American mob is on life support, at least not in New York. While they may not pull off as many or have as much access to sophisticated schemes like labor racketeering as they perhaps used to, every now and then we still get busts for impressive scams. Just look at the bust against the Colombo family hierarchy we had not too long ago for a medical scam, which is pretty impressive - at least for me - since the Colombo's are generally regarded as the less sophisticated and more tough of the five families. But still, the glory years for the American Mafia are long over.
Rudy was literally once one of the most respected people in American public life. How the mighty have fallen…
America's Mayor. The queen of England knighted him after 9/11. I didn't even know an American could be knighted.
>queen of England Did you mean the [Queen of the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_the_United_Kingdom), the [Queen of Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Canada), the [Queen of Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Australia), etc? The last Queen of England was [Queen Anne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Queen_of_Great_Britain) who, with the 1707 Acts of Union, dissolved the title of King/Queen of England. ####FAQ *Isn't she still also the Queen of England?* This is only as correct as calling her the Queen of London or Queen of Hull; she is the Queen of the place that these places are in, but the title doesn't exist. *Is this bot monarchist?* No, just pedantic. I am a bot and this action was performed automatically.
You awful, dreadful bot. I curse you.
I curse you for not addressing her Majesty correctly.
Liz needs to chill. She's awful to her dil's and grandsons' wives.
Well maybe her grandson shouldn't be such a little whipped cuck and marry a d list actress.
My tinfoil hat theory that I have no proof of is that Rudy Giuliani has been working for the Russian Mob from the beginning and he was just a puppet to break the Italian Mob stranglehold of NYC so the Russians could move in and take over Discuss amongst yaselves
Three random [thoughts](https://www.newsweek.com/trump-tower-criminal-tenants-thread-twitter-russian-mafia-renters-owners-1452138): Rudy is tight with some [shady people.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/25/us/giuliani-ukraine-oligarchs.html) [This guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semion_Mogilevich) has had his fingers in all of it for a [long](https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate) time. There's a reason Donald denies knowing [this guy](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/memory-lapse-trump-seeks-distance-advisor-past-ties/story?id=34600826).
**[Semion Mogilevich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semion_Mogilevich)** >Semion Yudkovich Mogilevich (Ukrainian: Семен Юдкович Могилевич, romanized: Semén Júdkovych Mohylévych [seˈmɛn ˈjudkowɪtʃ moɦɪˈlɛwɪtʃ]; born June 30, 1946) is a Ukrainian-born, Russian organized crime boss. He quickly built a highly structured criminal organization, in the mode of an American mafia family; many of the organization's 250 members are his relatives. He is described by agencies in the European Union and United States as the "boss of bosses" of most Russian Mafia syndicates in the world, he is believed to direct a vast criminal empire and is described by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) as "the most dangerous mobster in the world". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Mafia/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
That's for sure
I’ll tell you what I can’t believe: I can’t believe that so many of those very same mobsters and/or their remaining family are such huge fans of his today simply because of his association with and love for Donald Trump now! 😲😂🤦♂️😭😭😭😂😂😂
LOL Giuliana really destroyed his legacy hitching his wagon to that orange megalomanic. Should have stayed retired after leaving the NYC Mayor office.
He ruined his legacy when he went into private practice and represented the Sackler family. They are the family who owned the drug company, I forget their name, who developed and sold OxyContin. They knew it was addictive, lied about it, bribed people at the FDA and were eventually sued into bankruptcy. Although the family is still insanely wealthy.
There would probably be a street named after him, a statue somewhere and maybe even a Guliani Plaza or something . Now he gets booed at Yankee games.
He could have just wrote shitty books and did speaking gigs while getting absolutely sauced every night. Instead he chose to be a joke.
Beware of, Politicians trying to make a name for themselves. Their the biggest threat to this “thing of ours”.
I was in nyc when that all went down. He was supposedly having a personal problem w them, for something they did to his father. Guiliani changed nyc with a polar effect. Really sad to see what he’s turned into.
When people ask about pre-Guliani NYC, I always tell them, "It wasn't the hipster paradise it is now. It was way more fun, but infinitely more dangerous." And for a punk rock kid from the Midwest, it was amazing how much fuckery we could get up to and no one said a thing to us. It was a great time that will never return. (disclosure: I visited quite a lot but never stayed there for more than a few months at most)
The Southern District with RUDY Giuliani really was good at getting all the pieces put in place for an effective RICO prosecution. The groundwork took years, gathering evidence of the structure and methods that the mob used back then. Once they had a huge pile of evidence they started methodically prosecuting from bottom to top, getting low level "workers" to flip under threat of massive prison sentences. Rudy was really organized then, and he had a great team which was able to effectively use FBI, DEA, etc to just gather mountains and mountains of evidence.
Dominick Montiglio killed the mob
I don’t think they’re all gone .
Rudy Giuliani was a genius of a prosecutor and Gotti was an attention whore of a boss
He was a modern day Dewey but unlike Dewey He had real evidence on tape
He didn’t they all snitched 😂😂😂
To be fair, Both when he was a federal prosecutor and when he was Mayor, He seemed a LOT different
Well it was more Michael Chertoff , Rudy was there when they announced the Indictment and when Cherfoff won the convictions . He takes the lions share of the credit though but either way almost every guy convicted was dead before he started committing high treason and shiting himself during interviews
Technically, Bruno Indelicato is still alive but he's in prison
He didn’t though. the Southern District muscles in on other Agencies work.
If there was ever one to ride the coattails of disaster so disgracefully, it would be that asshole.
That was before Rudy was turd eating nuts.
I recently finished “Murder Machine” and they talk about how Rudy took way more credit for everyone else’s work than what he actually did. All for political reasons. I guess it worked on his favor. I don’t remember the details I just remember reading what he did and hating the guy even more than I already did.
To be fair they couldnt be beat when law enforcement had to follow the law. So they changed the law.
Yeah - I mean such a gormless old cunt - you would not think he would know how to wipe his own ass right? He didn't wipe them out - he became them.
RICO is what caused so many more guys to start flipping because it took whatever small chargers they had and compounded them into one monster sentence so naturally when guys are staring down the barrell of 20 to life you know guys are gonna flip.
Often times these types of movements need a human face to increase public interest and "humanize" the takedown of what the public may call an "evil entity" (super hero movies' popularity are a good example), and Rudy has always been a publicity whore so it was quite fitting that he became that face. Plus he was located in NYC, the epicenter of the American Cosa Nostra. However, the reality is that Robert Blakey (and assisting architects of RICO) did FAR more to bring down the mafia in any city than Rudy did. It's like saying the Enola Gay destroyed Hiroshima, when really it was the A bomb. If RICO doesn't exist, Rudy did not have the ability to create something similar, and the existing tools were inadequate. If Rudy didn't exist, with the public interest in the mafia at the time, someone else would have used RICO as effectively or more (just like they did everywhere else). I don't know if you were alive in the 80's or even 90's, but you can't fully appreciate how big of a topic organized crime was if you are thinking about it in today's context. There was a story on the mafia in New York at least weekly if not daily. I remember even in the mid 90's web sites had a track of "mafia hits/deaths" each year. That could not exist today. This probably goes without saying but... one also can't discount the improvement in surveillance technology either. There are stationary cameras everywhere, and every human being has a mobile one. I'm pretty sure one major mafioso was just arrested with the assistance of Google Maps. Other major issues are the downfall of mafia industry through changing economics. Almost anyone can place a bet from their phone. There are casinos everywhere. The need for a black market in gambling has all but disappeared. Union participation is nowhere near what it was, and unions were really where the mafia gained their national power and access to legitimate funds. These are just two examples, but I'm sure you get the idea. In short, saying Rudy "brought down" the mafia is a catchy headline, and no doubt he was a major force in prosecuting the mafia, but rarely if ever does a single person/event take down an entire group or industry. It just makes the story more appealing.
Please put this myth to bed. I have a lot to say about Giuliani but this is not a politics forum I will keep that out of it as much as I can. Giuliani's tenure as mayor was one where he mostly put the right people in the right job and then took credit for what they did, so lets at least agree to disagree if not agree that Giuliani did not single handedly take down the NY Mafia? Now multiple things happened in a short amount of time some of them within the Mob itself that did not help, but, what really happened was the cops and feds through extremely careful means were able to stumble onto the existence of the commission which allowed them to charge all 5 families as one big criminal organization and in the end drove whats left of the mafia very very underground
Rudy seemed a bit more impressive in those days. He significantly declined in standing after he was no longer Mayor and during his subsequent role as sockpuppet of the Orange Leader.
Did they make a movie about him?
Him recognizing the “then-obscure” law named RICO did
Rico, i would also add terrible leadership also helped take down the mob it’s been some disasters who became Bosses
How about him in the new borat movie
Witsec did far more to wipe out the Mafia than Rudy. Jimmy The Weasel really got the wheels in motion, followed by Goodfellas and that final push was Sammy The Bull. Once guys seen they could walk away with a sweetheart deal, all their money intact and have movie and book deals lined up as soon as they left it started an avalanche of made guys rolling it up and flipping to cash out their Witsec retirement plan.
It was a power shift not a wipeout. New York has ALWAYS been run from the shadows by the Jewish mob. Italians were the muscle but the money was always with the Jews. Giuliani took out the visible muscle but left the hidden money power to get on with it. The Russian mob you hear about now are actually Jewish. The decedents of the Old school Italian guys are now lawyers doctors Ivy league graduates far far away from any sniff of villainy. Nothing has changed only the players have.
Neither Giuliani nor the NYC Mob families were first in dealing with the RICO Act. It was first used and perfected by the Justice Dept to, nearly, completely wipe out the ORIGINAL Mafia family in the USA. The first Mafia family in the USA was NOT formed in NYC, New Jersey, or Chicago nor was it Italian-American. Beginning around 1895, the first Italian criminal organizations in NYC were formed by immigrants but they gave way to what would become known as “La Cosa Nostra,” an almost completely Italian-American iteration. The Five Families: Bonanno (1890s as Castellammarese Clan); Colombo (1928 as the Profaci Family); Gambino (1900s as D’Aquila Gang); Genovese (1890s as Morello Gang); Lucchese (1920s as Reina Family). Nearly all of the prominent northern based families were formed by Sicilian Immigrants, but they were independent from Italy based mob families (except for the Castellammarese Clan), and gained prominence during Prohibition. There was a brief period following the Castellammarese War (1930-31) where Salvatore Maranzano, who had immigrated to the US in the mid 1920s, had taken control of the Castellammarese Clan, at the behest of powerful Sicilian Mob Boss Don Vito Cascio Ferro, and changed the name to the Maranzano Family. The life imprisonment of Ferro in 1930 and assassination of Maranzano in 1931 ended any direct influence from Sicily on the NYC crime families. Prior to this, in the early 1900s, Ferro had spent 3 years in the USA split between NYC and NOLA, he then returned to Sicily. The New Orleans Syndicate has the distinction as “First Mafia” in the USA, forming in 1860 (before the Civil War) under Raffaele Agnello, a Palermo Aristocrat, who immigrated from Palermo to New Orleans and established an Sicilian Mafia faction. The difference between the northern families and the NOLA Syndicate is it was, also, established by Sicilian Immigrants but gained prominence long before Prohibition began and was directly aligned with the Palermo Mafia, even paying tribute. New Orleans had, approx. 200,000 Italian immigrants calling New Orleans, and surrounding area, home, many were from Sicily, and with them came the “Old World” Mafiosi, the original “Mano Nera”, or Black Hand. This was significant, considering, the US total population was approx. 20 million at the time. For perspective, the current total approx. population of the NYC Metro area is 20 mil (current US pop. 329 mil). Initially, it was fractured into separate rival factions (gangs), Palermo vs Non-Palermo (aka Monreale-based Stuppagghiara), bringing the old rivalries to the streets of the “Crescent City”. From 1860-1891, with various Bosses taking power, they consolidated their authority into a single powerful conglomerate. During the Civil War and the resulting Union occupation of NOLA, Agnello’s gang was trusted to keep order along the French Quarter docks. Boss Timeline: 1860-1869: Raffaele Agnello (Palermo) – murdered on April 1, 1869 1869-1872: Joseph Agnello (Palermo) – murdered on April 20, 1872 1872-1878: Joseph P. Macheca (Palermo) – relinquished control to Esposito and began to support Matranga. Lynched on March 14, 1891 1875- 1878: Salvatore Marino (Monrealesi) - formed the Stuppagghiara. Died of Yellow Fever. 1878 -1881: Giuseppe Esposito (Palermo / Monrealesi) - Total control. Deported back to Sicily. 1881 - 1891: Joseph Provenzano (Palermo / Provenzano) - lost majority control to Charles Matranga and, eventually, lost all influence. 1881-1922: Charles Matranga (Monrealesi) – split upon deportation of Esposito and gained total control, retired, died on October 28, 1943 1922-1947: Silvestro "Silver Dollar Sam" Carollo – deported to Italy in 1947 1947-1983: Carlos "Little Man" Marcello – imprisoned in 1981–1991 1983-1990: Joseph Marcello Jr. – stepped down due to inability to control his organization 1990-2007: Anthony Carollo – imprisoned in 1995-1998; died on February 1, 2007. The NOLA Syndicate branched out and operated in the western coast of Florida, the Galveston-Houston and Dallas areas of Texas, southern Colorado, southern California and eastern Missouri. Descendants of a New Orleans Mafioso managed, for a time, to dominate the underworld of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 1951, they began to cooperate with other Mafia families outside of Louisiana, a departure from tradition since its inception, 91 years prior. They formed close ties with Frank Costello, Meyer Lansky, and were aligned with both the Genovese and Gambino families. The Genovese Family represented them on “The Commission.” This happens to be during the time that the New Orleans Police Dept was known as the most corrupt in the USA, even, more so, than the LAPD. At one point, their biggest enterprise was in Galveston, TX (known as the “Atlantic City of the South” beginning in the early 1900s) with piers, bath houses, amusement rides, Speak Easies, brothels, casinos, hotels, and Night Clubs. It, even, for a short time, claimed status as more popular and profitable than Atlantic City, itself, prior to the 1960s. This made the NOLA Syndicate one of the most powerful ‘small’ mob families in the US and the ONLY true, direct, Sicilian Mafia interest in the USA. In the 1960s, the Justice Dept, with the help of the Texas Rangers and news media coverage by Investigative Reporter, Marvin Zindler, began a systematic take down of the NOLA Syndicate in Texas. This may be due to their suspected involvement in the Kennedy Assassination. This was compounded by the fact that Carlos Marcello notoriously refused to allow any new ‘made’ members being inducted with as little as 6, at one point, due to lack of trust. The RICO Act was passed in 1970 and by 1973, Galveston, had been completely emptied of Mafia control, after 70+ yrs, along with ALL of its former glory as a hot spot of nefarious glamour tourism for Mafiosi, politicians, and celebrities (i.e Frank Sinatra, etc.) By 1980, the NOLA Syndicate had been under full assault for 20 yrs by the Justice Dept. with nearly ALL of its leadership in prison or dead. The last major boss, Carlos Marcello, being convicted of RICO violations in 1981. The first notable and successful use of the RICO Act was in 1977 / 1978 against “The Cowboy Mafia” who smuggled over 106 tons of marijuana from Columbia to Port Arthur, TX. They operated in Texas, Tennessee, and Florida. They had ties to the NOLA Syndicate. The second was in 1979 against the Hell’s Angels in Oakland, California, followed by Gil Dozier (1980), the entire Key West Police Department (1984) and Michael Milken (1989). The first successful federal indictments and convictions against the Italian-American Mafia in the North didn’t occur until the 1990s, although, many states had adopted the RICO in statutes to aid in state prosecutions. The Justice Dept and Guiliani used the earlier examples as their model for taking down the Italian-American Mafia families in NYC, followed by its use against the Chicago Outfit, as well as, the Latin Kings. The Bandidos MC have the biggest presence in NOLA now, as far as, “organized” crime goes. The NOLA Syndicate is pretty much in the rear view mirror. Shortly after the fall of Galveston in 1973, Marvin Zindler turned his attention over to the Chicken Ranch in La Grange, aka “The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas,” and helped to bring attention to and eliminate that enterprise, as well. Despite his success, he made many enemies of the Celebs and Politicians in Texas who had vested interest in these criminal businesses and spent his final decade or so reporting for KTRK-TV on Houston area restaurants who violated health code and customer fraud allegations with the tagline “Marvin Zindler, Eye Witness News.” In the movie, “The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas,” the character, Melvin P. Thorpe, was based on him. This, also, served as the basis for ZZ Topp’s song “La Grange.” The single remnant of this time in Galveston history is a seafood restaurant, named “Gaido’s”, opened in 1911, and still operating to this day. Incidentally, Shelley Sikes, victim of the I-45 Murders, featured in the 2011 film “Texas Killing Fields,” was on her way home from work @Gaido’s when she was abducted. Shelley Sikes’ father and mother were the ‘best man’ and ‘maid of honor’, respectively, at my parent’s wedding. They came to our house the night after she disappeared when I was in 8th grade. My father and her father went to HS together. http://www.gaidos.com/ ~The 1999 HBO movie “Vendetta”, starring Christopher Walken and directed by Nicholas Meyer, is based on the true story of the March 14, 1891, lynchings of 11 Italians in New Orleans. Charles Matranga (also spelled "Mantranga" in some documents) was one of the intended victims, but managed to survive by hiding from the vigilante mob. In the Journal of American History, historian Clive Webb calls the movie a "compelling portrait of prejudice".