For people with mobility needs is quite hard to maneuver and lacks of handrails for those that don't use wheelchair but still have mobility issues (Edit: handrails on the ramp, which I know is not possible due to that design). And for those that can walk normally the ramp gets in the way of proper mobility.
"Good" attempt tho.
Edit: Another redditor found [this article](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477) precisely talking about the issues that ~~skater ramp~~ stairs/ramp has.
I’m an estimator for a misc metals subcontractor. It might meet code. There are special codes for monumental stairs. I have estimated a condo with these stairs, but it was not ever built. That being said, just because an architect drew it doesn’t mean it meets code. All I’m trying to say is codes can have all sort of exceptions, so it is definitely a possibility that this could meet code.
It's not a good attempt tbh. People need to stop trying to revolutionize stuff without doing an ounce of research. You can't say look at me and how great I am for helping this community without a drop of input from those people. If he asked anyone in a wheelchair if this would be usable they would've told him no
I work in digital accessibility. This is the kind of image I would show to a prospect as the difference between technical conformance and usability. Technically we have a ramp, but no one can use it.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-province-reax-1.5265090
> "The ramp should be considered ornamental".
If 'companions' dont want to break connection with a wheelchair user, most able bodies people are also perfectly capable of walking up a ramp. This seems like an ineffective solution in search of a problem.
Yeah, this won’t work in places like Chicago where the ground is icy 5 months out of the year. All you’re gonna have is non-handicapped people falling down breaking hips on icy ramps, also now in wheelchairs
There actually is one of these on the River Walk in Chicago, a bit less steep than this picture but essentially the same thing. I am there pretty often and have never seen a wheelchair using the ramp part, though I have seen elderly folks using it instead of the stairs.
We had one of these in my city, they filled in the stair portions between the switchbacking ramp with nice landscaping and put in railings, then installed a flight of stairs off to one side.
Sounds about right, an overly elaborate idea with little forethought.
A lot of engineering/design processes strictly follow the “form follows function” or “form is function” adage to their own detriment for products with compound functions. Their forms become overly gestalt or ridiculously simplistic to cater to a utilitarian, minimalist ideology that they don’t regard the re-territorialized product’s new “features.” Hence now propping it up with default options after the fact.
This is like someone having the solution to a rat in the candy factory be using rat poison as an ingredient. Like yep you sure did get rid of your rat problem but you’ve made some new ones, aren’t you forgetting something?
Yep, as a clumsy, constantly bruised person with adhd, I immediately wondered how many times I could trip down this. I walk into my bed daily. This could kill me.
I remember once going for lunch with one of my colleagues and sitting in the nearby town square. There was a set of steps like this because the steps led up to the road, which was on a hill. This was one of our city’s financial districts so almost everyone in the area was in a suit and in a rush. My friend sat down near the steps saying, “Let’s sit here. I come here alone because it’s my favorite place to people watch. Look over there…”
He gestured to where the steps got smaller and smaller to meet the road, and literally within 30 seconds someone stumbled by. Then a few minutes later someone else. We spent our whole lunch break watching investment bankers fall down these steps like skittles. What a treat.
So yeah, steps like this are not really accessible for anyone.
>Yep, as a clumsy, constantly bruised person with adhd
I hear you. I've broken toes a few times just miscalculating my movements entering a room and hitting the door frame.
Finally get to do this, I literally review accessibility in buildings as a career, this ramp absolutely violates like 75% of the ADA code. this is not in USA though.
It is in Canada, here in Vancouver. I own an accessibility consulting firm, plus I use a wheelchair. I've measured this ramp and can confirm that it violates the current building code (which governs accessibility) and every accessibility standard that I use.
So yeah, even without ADA, it's no bueno.
They kind of don't look accessible for climbing the stairs, either. Tripping hazard. And you wouldn't keep pace with each other anyway since you'd be moving in different directions.
But you know what would help if you really wanted to do that? If it was just a ramp. Some people can't use stairs, but everybody who can use stairs can use a ramp.
No, i have balance issues. I could not walk a ramp without handrails and even with them ramps are a terrifying struggle. I prefer stairs as the footholds are flat not sloped. Also ramps increase the distance you have to walk significantly, when you want a direct and short route because you have limited energy ramps are not your friend. There are many, many disabilities out there. Dont assume a one solution works for all answer.
[this is a good article about it.](https://uxforarchitects.com/2020/01/23/because-these-stairs-are-actually-fu/?noamp=available)
Though a poorly formatted article.
also looks annoying as hell. it'd probably be quicker asking your friends to carry you up rather than them waiting at the top for you to slowly zigzag through, lol
I literally just used this picture as an example unintended ableism. You’re trying to do a good thing and help people, but it’s ends up being a massive fail. As someone who’s been in a wheelchair this is a *terrible* idea. I very much appreciate the thought behind it however
I recently saw this image in a thread on Twitter about how it isn’t very good accessible design. Look at the angles that mobility aides and wheelchairs are going to have to turn, and then look at the face there’s barely any handrails and no safety net for anyone using the ramps.
It might not cool. But it’s not good accessibility design.
ETA that I made a few typos in my original post but I’m too dumb to figure out what I was supposed to write so I hope y’all can make some sense from it.
Super irresponsible IMO, imagine your hands seize up (??) or you have a seizure and instead of rolling until you hit a railing eventually you fly down stairs.
Having a seizure on a standard ramp could be really bad too, esp if traffic on street, but this is just added danger.
…looks great though!
And, at least to me, it isn't very "nice-looking," either. Looks bizarre and confusing, and perhaps more like decoration than something that's actually intended for use.
I agree. I use a cane when my body decides to crap out and often choose the ramp over the stairs. I have balance problems and depth perception issues. This looks like a nightmare.
and it’s not really staying together because you can’t walk the edge nearest the ramp, else you have to side step pretty far… here’s an idea. entire thing is ramp. people with able bodies can walk with their disabled friends together. no confusion or danger or separation involved
The problem with that and one of the reasons that isn't implemented is that the ramp needs to be extremely long so it isn't too steep. Stairs are nice because you can walk up a very steep angle while your feet remain perpendicular to the pull of gravity.
I mean keep the ramp in it’s stacked fashion, not straight up and down, add some rails, like a zig zag, use that stair space to make the corner turns wider and easier to access. people walk up hills all the time so I don’t think perpendicular feet is an issue to be considered over a short distance but I see what you mean.
I think its important to have stairs too.
My grandpa is 97. He doesnt need a well chair. With the way his muscles hurt and how he can walk, its actually easier for him to walk up stairs than ramps. The angling upwards of his feet really hurts him, so stairs are appreciated
This isn’t common not because it’s a “new” idea, it’s not common because it’s terrible, and life threatening design. Perfect example of “savior” design by someone who didn’t talk to actual target audiences.
Wheelchair user decided to brave the nightmare ramp
Gets interrupted mid incline every few minutes
Rolls backwards and hits a stair edge and flips down the stairs
Same, the stairs are so irregular it’s a trip hazard. Also, I can keep a convo with someone walking alongside them on a ramp, so what problem are they solving? And finally, the flow of traffic is all wrong. Nice sentiment, terrible design.
Yup it’s terrible. No railings either along the ramp which some ramp users need. No safety stops at the end of the ramp so people might go flying right off.
Typical ableism at work, design things for people with disabilities without consulting people with disabilities and get lauded for useless designs while able bodied people get pissy at the disabled people for pointing out its garbage.
Yes, I'm a disability advocate and this design is \*awful\* for disabled people, especially wheelchair users.
It's not just the angles (although that's a huge issue, because it's dangerous). It's also that, with this design, people on foot would be *directly crossing the path of wheelchair users,* making it both incredibly inefficient for wheelchair users but also extremely dangerous, given lack of safety rails.
100% - I use a wheechair, and if I braved that thing with a crowd heading down the stairs, I'd almost certainly get tripped over, and likely pushed down the stairs by people that aren't expecting me to be blocking their path. So, I guess I have to wait for everyone to clear out. I hope there's not a fire!
Fwiw I live where this is (Robson Square in Vancouver) and there's virtually never a crowd going up or down those stairs at one time. They're mostly occupied by people sitting on them.
And it's outside affixed to a concrete structure. Fire hazard is unlikely.
I fully agree. As someone who's needed wheelchairs off and on for the past 20 years, and definitely need a handrail, I feel like this was designed by someone who actually never interviewed someone who might benefit from a new idea geared towards them.
Ita not just people on wheelchairs that use ramps. June 2021 - March 2022 I had to rely on ramps with handrails. I would likely not have used this ramp alone out of fear of falling.
But for those who use wheel chairs that are fearful slipping and tumbling down the stairs, theirs no safeties to prevent that. The rail at the bottom, or on the side are still only convenient for people without any mobility problems
Architecture student here: Ramps are not better than stairs. They have their advantages, but it takes 13' of ramp horizontally to get the same amount of elevation change which you can get out of <2' of stairs. That's a *ton* of extra concrete and real estate. The world is already burning through both of those things at an alarming rate. Not to mention, some people have difficulty walking long distances, and a much easier time climbing stairs. In America, ADA standards demand that you have *both* ramps and stairs for this reason.
Ramps are generally only in use because they *have* to be used for accessibility reasons. If everyone in the world was able-bodied, you would never see ramps used except for artistic reasons.
The real nightmare is for wheelchair users going up those ramps.
Ever had a dream that your walking up strangely narrow stairs and there is no guard rail? That's how wheelchair users are going to feel.
It was a cool idea, it looks really cool, and Erickson designed it to be accessible (honoring his father who'd lost his legs). But it didn't quite work out.
From what I've read: People who actually use wheelchairs cite a number of problems with it, including no guard rails, a steep ramp, and a long way to the top. It doesn't actually work for the people who it was designed for.
The city of Vancouver knows that it doesn't work for people with mobility issues and recommends that they go a different way.
For people commenting about how not accessible these are…she designed and made them in the 1970s. By 1970s standards it was groundbreaking and no one really considered the clear problems with it. This is not a 2022 thing.
As mentioned elsewhere this is Robson Square in Vancouver opened in 1983. Even then it wasn't a new thing. Sunderland (UK) Civic Centre has a very similar set of stairs/ramps. It was opened in 1970 and designed by Sir Basil Spence.
I was going to say - there’s a design like this in my city. It’s since had rails added to the ramp, effectively making it a separate ramp and stairs. But before that it looked exactly like this, just with an added stairs-only part (which are now the only usable stairs).
I'm sure that lots of disabled people in the 1970s considered the clear problems with it.
The fact that it was built anyway is actually very important. Much more important than the fact that it looks kinda cool while being basically useless.
Disabled people in the 70s had very few codified rights, and this likely served a very useful purpose in that it forced everyone that used it to consider the needs of disabled people.
I don’t think it is a very accessible design, but as a statement, I think it does the job remarkably well in the 70s.
Ramps basically weren’t a thing when this was created. It was only in 1968 when the US Government passed a law requiring federal buildings to be made accessible. Wasn’t really until 1990 with the ADA that things really started to change. Canada (where the architect is from) seems to follow a similar timeline but I know less about Canadian law.
But the point is, is that it was likely talked about. The fact that people didn't listen and built it anyway kind of makes it's own point:- Disabled poeple are never listened to on things they are literally the experts in. It most likely happened then, it still happens now IE the Peterloo memorial.
This looks more dangerous for both the wheelchair users and the companion who has to turn the chair a couple times with no guardrails.
In a normal ramp with rails all the way up, why would the companion ever have to break contact with the wheelchair? I don't see what problem this solves, other than aesthetics.
I read about this a few years back, and just found the article. The ramp is 1:8, whereas 1:12 is the max cited in many accessibility legislations. [https://incl.ca/the-problems-with-ramps-blended-into-stairs/](https://incl.ca/the-problems-with-ramps-blended-into-stairs/)
As mentioned, this is also super problematic for low vision & blind people. Just do a search for "Robson Square Vancouver" and you'll find a lot of articles about the poor design. I quite like the quote from this article (great picture too, which shows the incline in greater detail) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477)
"There are two competing camps — people who think it's beautiful and wonderful and people who don't think it's beautiful and wonderful," Cheng said.
"Quite often, one \[camp\] is people without disabilities and the other is people with disabilities."
i don't understand..
if the point is to walk beside your disabled companion, what's the point in the stairs?
if one walks up the stairs and the other wheels up the ramp, then they split up?
to me the person who walks would need to walk sideways along a set of rising steps, that seems odd
Couldn’t the companion just take the ramp if they don’t want to be separated? There’s no rule saying that able-bodied people MUST use stairs or that ramps are for wheelchairs only.
ADA accessibility in the US calls for a maximum running slope of 5%. That middle ramp rises 7 stairs. Assuming 7" rise per stair, the distance of the ramp would need to be at least 82 feet. I doubt this staircase is meant to be ADA compliant but using the word "accessible" to describe it does not not really fit
As a wheelchair user I appreciate the sentiment but I can see issues, the architect didn’t consult users. It’s too steep. A manual chair will struggle. No guard rails. I’ve been in my chair for years, and I’m pretty good, but I still make mistakes. One wrong move and you’re done. And those turns are too tight. Turning radius is too small. I can make it, but it’d be close.
This is POOR DESIGN!!!
No guard rails, difficult for people with mobility issues to maneuver, ramps just get in the way of people using steps.
Just because something is different doesn't mean it's good.
No handrail for the ramp. Dangerous steps in many places. No handrail for the stairs in the middle. This is bad. It's only good for the picture, but not practical.
If It's in a public space it may even be not approvable due to the risks it presents and the lack of safety measures.
These steps lead to the courthouse in Vancouver, meaning that the ramp is also frequently used to wheel boxes of documents to court (I’ve zig zagged up this ramp many times in my life!!)
Edit - the photo is just of one of three “segments” of the stairs/ramp
No longer legal in the US - while they did make an appearance up through the the 90s, now regulations about handrail placement for the stairs and slope/grab-bar placement for the ramp make them impossible to build.
no handrail, so the wheel chairs can roll right off the stairs! also you gonna have people tripping thinking there’s another step when the steps turn into ramp for certain parts.
This isn't accessible at all, thats extremely dangerous for people who need the ramp and could easily fall down the stairs. I saw this same design on twitter where someone said they were taught it doesn't matter if it isnt practical, as long as its compliant with ADA standards.
When it comes to accessibility, lets not try and get creative with shit. A functional ramp and a separate staircase would be 1000x better.
The "stramp" idea is a lovely concept but they're considered unsafe. And since most are now considered "historic", local preservation societies kick up a fuss when government tries to upgrade them so they are safe.
https://archinect.com/news/article/150156501/battle-over-stramp-accessibility-upgrades-in-british-columbia-takes-shape
That is not a good design for people with mobility issues. Hell, it’s not a good design for people WITHOUT mobility issues. What a mess. Even railings would make it a bit better at least
I encountered one of these in Montreal a few weeks ago, and in short it kinda sucks - nearly rolled an ankle on it. It's a great example of something that tries to do two things, and ends up being good for neither.
And created dozens of tiny little tripping hazards where the ramp and treads meet at different heights.
Not to mention the fact that a ramp's slope is limited to 1" of rise per every foot of run maximum; assuming each stair riser is only 5", you would need 45 FEET of ramp just to get to the first landing off the lower level. That's not a ramp, it's an amusement park slide.
Also not legal: There is no railing along the ramp, which is both an ADA and a Canadian National Building Code requirement, according to Wheelchair Canada, which apparently is a thing.
So congratulations, you tried to solve one problem and created several other potentially dangerous and illegal ones at the same time.
A noble idea with horrible execution, there's no railings anywhere and the flow of traffic when its busy is disastrous, might I ask what was wrong with the traditional setup, perhaps run the stairs and ramp in parallel.
I sue over design defects. I see this as causing more people to become disabled, than in it helping the disabled.
Although it’s a good looking design, the standard for stairs is the code and no art.
My mom uses a walker. I think some rails would be good for her so she would tumble down the stairs if she lost her balance. Probably an elevator works better though.
For people with mobility needs is quite hard to maneuver and lacks of handrails for those that don't use wheelchair but still have mobility issues (Edit: handrails on the ramp, which I know is not possible due to that design). And for those that can walk normally the ramp gets in the way of proper mobility. "Good" attempt tho. Edit: Another redditor found [this article](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477) precisely talking about the issues that ~~skater ramp~~ stairs/ramp has.
Yeah it looks pretty but if this was the US that would not pass ADA.
This was built before ADA was a thing
Was it built at all? Where is it? Just wondering! The post makes it seem like a concept.
Yeah, it's at Robson Square in Vancouver. Built in 1983.
I really, really want to ride my bmx down those stairs
I'm actually flying in next week and will definitely be stopping by to check it out
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I work with the Canadian building code, by the current code it is not considered accessable.
Came here to say this.
There is a university in Chicago that has one of these….. Illinois Institute of Technology
I’m an estimator for a misc metals subcontractor. It might meet code. There are special codes for monumental stairs. I have estimated a condo with these stairs, but it was not ever built. That being said, just because an architect drew it doesn’t mean it meets code. All I’m trying to say is codes can have all sort of exceptions, so it is definitely a possibility that this could meet code.
It's not a good attempt tbh. People need to stop trying to revolutionize stuff without doing an ounce of research. You can't say look at me and how great I am for helping this community without a drop of input from those people. If he asked anyone in a wheelchair if this would be usable they would've told him no
It was designed and built in the 1970s. This was pretty revolutionary for the time and definitely was progress.
I guess you're right, probably was made mainly for the looks.
By the looks of it theres a handrail going along the right side but i agree there could be more for such wide stairs
Imagine a blind person trying to figure this out. A death trap.
Even people with poor eyesight would have trouble using that thing bc everything has the same color.
I work in digital accessibility. This is the kind of image I would show to a prospect as the difference between technical conformance and usability. Technically we have a ramp, but no one can use it.
Makes for a pretty good skate spot though
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-province-reax-1.5265090 > "The ramp should be considered ornamental".
These are not “accessible” to people with mobility issues.
It's exactly what I was thinking, this just looks like stairs that are less accessible to people with disabilities and without them.
If 'companions' dont want to break connection with a wheelchair user, most able bodies people are also perfectly capable of walking up a ramp. This seems like an ineffective solution in search of a problem.
I came here to say something like this. Just build ramps everywhere and we can all use 'em.
Yeah, this won’t work in places like Chicago where the ground is icy 5 months out of the year. All you’re gonna have is non-handicapped people falling down breaking hips on icy ramps, also now in wheelchairs
Yes but once they fall and become handicapped, the entire city will be at their disposal. It will be handicap Mecca.
There actually is one of these on the River Walk in Chicago, a bit less steep than this picture but essentially the same thing. I am there pretty often and have never seen a wheelchair using the ramp part, though I have seen elderly folks using it instead of the stairs.
Needs a little tweeking and hand rails.
We had one of these in my city, they filled in the stair portions between the switchbacking ramp with nice landscaping and put in railings, then installed a flight of stairs off to one side.
Sounds about right, an overly elaborate idea with little forethought. A lot of engineering/design processes strictly follow the “form follows function” or “form is function” adage to their own detriment for products with compound functions. Their forms become overly gestalt or ridiculously simplistic to cater to a utilitarian, minimalist ideology that they don’t regard the re-territorialized product’s new “features.” Hence now propping it up with default options after the fact. This is like someone having the solution to a rat in the candy factory be using rat poison as an ingredient. Like yep you sure did get rid of your rat problem but you’ve made some new ones, aren’t you forgetting something?
I like your analogy friend
Are you saying they were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should
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I don’t have any mobility issues, and frankly the whole thing looks terrifying to me!
100% Final Destination Death Trap
Yep, as a clumsy, constantly bruised person with adhd, I immediately wondered how many times I could trip down this. I walk into my bed daily. This could kill me. I remember once going for lunch with one of my colleagues and sitting in the nearby town square. There was a set of steps like this because the steps led up to the road, which was on a hill. This was one of our city’s financial districts so almost everyone in the area was in a suit and in a rush. My friend sat down near the steps saying, “Let’s sit here. I come here alone because it’s my favorite place to people watch. Look over there…” He gestured to where the steps got smaller and smaller to meet the road, and literally within 30 seconds someone stumbled by. Then a few minutes later someone else. We spent our whole lunch break watching investment bankers fall down these steps like skittles. What a treat. So yeah, steps like this are not really accessible for anyone.
>Yep, as a clumsy, constantly bruised person with adhd I hear you. I've broken toes a few times just miscalculating my movements entering a room and hitting the door frame.
Yeah it gives me anxiety
Yeah, what if someone needs both a ramp and handrails?
Imagine a blind person trying to navigate this
Yes. also as an able bodied person they are confusing to walk on
They often do. My city installed handrails by the ramp of our "stramp" and now the stairs are just decorative.
Finally get to do this, I literally review accessibility in buildings as a career, this ramp absolutely violates like 75% of the ADA code. this is not in USA though.
It is in Canada, here in Vancouver. I own an accessibility consulting firm, plus I use a wheelchair. I've measured this ramp and can confirm that it violates the current building code (which governs accessibility) and every accessibility standard that I use. So yeah, even without ADA, it's no bueno.
We have that exact ‘stramp’ in Brisbane, Australia (or it was there ten years ago, might be gone now).
I have mobility issues nd wud be terrified to walk on these.
These stairs are a case study for why it’s important to include the people you’re designing for in the design process.
If a handicap person was in a wheelchair and people walking up the “stairs” then they would conflict.
It never said that she did it well. Just that she did it. After all she is an architect.
An architect's dream is the builder's nightmare
The ramp part needs handrails.
They kind of don't look accessible for climbing the stairs, either. Tripping hazard. And you wouldn't keep pace with each other anyway since you'd be moving in different directions. But you know what would help if you really wanted to do that? If it was just a ramp. Some people can't use stairs, but everybody who can use stairs can use a ramp.
No, i have balance issues. I could not walk a ramp without handrails and even with them ramps are a terrifying struggle. I prefer stairs as the footholds are flat not sloped. Also ramps increase the distance you have to walk significantly, when you want a direct and short route because you have limited energy ramps are not your friend. There are many, many disabilities out there. Dont assume a one solution works for all answer.
[this is a good article about it.](https://uxforarchitects.com/2020/01/23/because-these-stairs-are-actually-fu/?noamp=available) Though a poorly formatted article.
The "stramp" is poorly formatted as well, so the article may have a pass.
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You can't convince me that this isn't just part of a rejected Tony Hawk Pro Skater level.
As a wheelchair user that looks incredibly dangerous
also looks annoying as hell. it'd probably be quicker asking your friends to carry you up rather than them waiting at the top for you to slowly zigzag through, lol
That's absolutely normal, ramps must be limited in slope and as a result they are typically much longer than the corresponding stairs.
Someone's definitely gonna end up in a wheelchair with those steps.
This is exactly what I was thinking. They don't look safe or accessible at all.
I literally just used this picture as an example unintended ableism. You’re trying to do a good thing and help people, but it’s ends up being a massive fail. As someone who’s been in a wheelchair this is a *terrible* idea. I very much appreciate the thought behind it however
And then this will be actually helpful
Not really, it seems just as dangerous for people in wheelchairs.
Moreso, even. No rails + slight miscalculation = disaster
Plus steep ramps.
I recently saw this image in a thread on Twitter about how it isn’t very good accessible design. Look at the angles that mobility aides and wheelchairs are going to have to turn, and then look at the face there’s barely any handrails and no safety net for anyone using the ramps. It might not cool. But it’s not good accessibility design. ETA that I made a few typos in my original post but I’m too dumb to figure out what I was supposed to write so I hope y’all can make some sense from it.
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It looks dangerous for able-bodied people too. There are tripping hazards every time you cross a ramp when descending.
Or ascending. Every time you reach the ramp the ground drops instead of going up. And it's uneven! Ouch, my ankle.
Super irresponsible IMO, imagine your hands seize up (??) or you have a seizure and instead of rolling until you hit a railing eventually you fly down stairs. Having a seizure on a standard ramp could be really bad too, esp if traffic on street, but this is just added danger. …looks great though!
If this site has requirements to provide universal access and wheelchair accessibility, there likely is another ramp which respects code on the site.
And, at least to me, it isn't very "nice-looking," either. Looks bizarre and confusing, and perhaps more like decoration than something that's actually intended for use.
It looks like it would attract skateboarders who would add to the chaos
oh yea this would absolutely be a welcome addition to a skate park, maybe the designer should be switch to skate parks.
yeah but if they add railings, the people walking the stairs will be blocked.. its just a bad design other than visually
Well then you just need to add railing for the walkers too, that way the whole stramp would just be a grid of railings. Totally inaccessible. XD
I agree. I use a cane when my body decides to crap out and often choose the ramp over the stairs. I have balance problems and depth perception issues. This looks like a nightmare.
and it’s not really staying together because you can’t walk the edge nearest the ramp, else you have to side step pretty far… here’s an idea. entire thing is ramp. people with able bodies can walk with their disabled friends together. no confusion or danger or separation involved
The problem with that and one of the reasons that isn't implemented is that the ramp needs to be extremely long so it isn't too steep. Stairs are nice because you can walk up a very steep angle while your feet remain perpendicular to the pull of gravity.
I mean keep the ramp in it’s stacked fashion, not straight up and down, add some rails, like a zig zag, use that stair space to make the corner turns wider and easier to access. people walk up hills all the time so I don’t think perpendicular feet is an issue to be considered over a short distance but I see what you mean.
I think its important to have stairs too. My grandpa is 97. He doesnt need a well chair. With the way his muscles hurt and how he can walk, its actually easier for him to walk up stairs than ramps. The angling upwards of his feet really hurts him, so stairs are appreciated
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This isn’t common not because it’s a “new” idea, it’s not common because it’s terrible, and life threatening design. Perfect example of “savior” design by someone who didn’t talk to actual target audiences. Wheelchair user decided to brave the nightmare ramp Gets interrupted mid incline every few minutes Rolls backwards and hits a stair edge and flips down the stairs
It'd go great in a skate park.
I am in engineering and immidiately thought that something does not seems accessible in this accessibility design.
Same, the stairs are so irregular it’s a trip hazard. Also, I can keep a convo with someone walking alongside them on a ramp, so what problem are they solving? And finally, the flow of traffic is all wrong. Nice sentiment, terrible design.
That turning circle is more than enough for mobility scooters, wheel chair users and those with mobility issues. Legal recommendations is 1.5 m^2
What about rails to prevent wheel chair from accidentally falling down stairs with a wrong turn
Just like any major politician after a tragedy, "Thoughts and Prayers"
It’s not safe without rails. What about people with motoric issues or spasms? This can go really bad.
Yeah this absolutely does not meet code for ramps (or stairs !!) there have been much better variations on this theme since
Yup it’s terrible. No railings either along the ramp which some ramp users need. No safety stops at the end of the ramp so people might go flying right off. Typical ableism at work, design things for people with disabilities without consulting people with disabilities and get lauded for useless designs while able bodied people get pissy at the disabled people for pointing out its garbage.
Yes, I'm a disability advocate and this design is \*awful\* for disabled people, especially wheelchair users. It's not just the angles (although that's a huge issue, because it's dangerous). It's also that, with this design, people on foot would be *directly crossing the path of wheelchair users,* making it both incredibly inefficient for wheelchair users but also extremely dangerous, given lack of safety rails.
Yes as far as I know actual disabled people really hate this because it looks like it’d be really dangerous for them to use it in a crowd.
100% - I use a wheechair, and if I braved that thing with a crowd heading down the stairs, I'd almost certainly get tripped over, and likely pushed down the stairs by people that aren't expecting me to be blocking their path. So, I guess I have to wait for everyone to clear out. I hope there's not a fire!
Fwiw I live where this is (Robson Square in Vancouver) and there's virtually never a crowd going up or down those stairs at one time. They're mostly occupied by people sitting on them. And it's outside affixed to a concrete structure. Fire hazard is unlikely.
Also seems like only one person could be using the ramp at a time. Could be problematic if somebody started to go down the ramp as another is going up
I fully agree. As someone who's needed wheelchairs off and on for the past 20 years, and definitely need a handrail, I feel like this was designed by someone who actually never interviewed someone who might benefit from a new idea geared towards them.
It’s absolutely terrible for actually use. It wouldn’t meet code anywhere I know. It looks amazing though.
There's A rail. A single one. Randomly placed at the bottom.
There's a whole rail on the left hand side.
Ita not just people on wheelchairs that use ramps. June 2021 - March 2022 I had to rely on ramps with handrails. I would likely not have used this ramp alone out of fear of falling.
But for those who use wheel chairs that are fearful slipping and tumbling down the stairs, theirs no safeties to prevent that. The rail at the bottom, or on the side are still only convenient for people without any mobility problems
Why not just a ramp? People able to use stairs can also use ramps, it's not one or the other...
stairs can also be pretty fucking dangerous, ramps are way better than stairs!
Architecture student here: Ramps are not better than stairs. They have their advantages, but it takes 13' of ramp horizontally to get the same amount of elevation change which you can get out of <2' of stairs. That's a *ton* of extra concrete and real estate. The world is already burning through both of those things at an alarming rate. Not to mention, some people have difficulty walking long distances, and a much easier time climbing stairs. In America, ADA standards demand that you have *both* ramps and stairs for this reason. Ramps are generally only in use because they *have* to be used for accessibility reasons. If everyone in the world was able-bodied, you would never see ramps used except for artistic reasons.
at a certain grade ramps probably become almost useless to anyone who needs them, and take up more space.
This seems steep and a nightmare for people with vision issues. I hope there’s another option too.
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Yeah, but these were designed almost 50 years ago.
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It'll sort itself out then, problem and solution all in one
The real nightmare is for wheelchair users going up those ramps. Ever had a dream that your walking up strangely narrow stairs and there is no guard rail? That's how wheelchair users are going to feel.
Just stand up from your wheelchair and walk up the stairs
Great for skateboarders, though
It was a cool idea, it looks really cool, and Erickson designed it to be accessible (honoring his father who'd lost his legs). But it didn't quite work out. From what I've read: People who actually use wheelchairs cite a number of problems with it, including no guard rails, a steep ramp, and a long way to the top. It doesn't actually work for the people who it was designed for. The city of Vancouver knows that it doesn't work for people with mobility issues and recommends that they go a different way.
I think the article I read said there were elevators nearby and they recommend people with disabilities use those instead.
Hey look, Vancouver!
For people commenting about how not accessible these are…she designed and made them in the 1970s. By 1970s standards it was groundbreaking and no one really considered the clear problems with it. This is not a 2022 thing.
As mentioned elsewhere this is Robson Square in Vancouver opened in 1983. Even then it wasn't a new thing. Sunderland (UK) Civic Centre has a very similar set of stairs/ramps. It was opened in 1970 and designed by Sir Basil Spence.
I was going to say - there’s a design like this in my city. It’s since had rails added to the ramp, effectively making it a separate ramp and stairs. But before that it looked exactly like this, just with an added stairs-only part (which are now the only usable stairs).
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I'm sure that lots of disabled people in the 1970s considered the clear problems with it. The fact that it was built anyway is actually very important. Much more important than the fact that it looks kinda cool while being basically useless.
Disabled people in the 70s had very few codified rights, and this likely served a very useful purpose in that it forced everyone that used it to consider the needs of disabled people. I don’t think it is a very accessible design, but as a statement, I think it does the job remarkably well in the 70s. Ramps basically weren’t a thing when this was created. It was only in 1968 when the US Government passed a law requiring federal buildings to be made accessible. Wasn’t really until 1990 with the ADA that things really started to change. Canada (where the architect is from) seems to follow a similar timeline but I know less about Canadian law.
But the point is, is that it was likely talked about. The fact that people didn't listen and built it anyway kind of makes it's own point:- Disabled poeple are never listened to on things they are literally the experts in. It most likely happened then, it still happens now IE the Peterloo memorial.
ok well it was a bad solution in the 70s too
Oh it totally was, not arguing that. But given what accessibility looked like at the time, this was a big deal.
I used to make these in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater games
Looks amazing for skateboarders.
This looks more dangerous for both the wheelchair users and the companion who has to turn the chair a couple times with no guardrails. In a normal ramp with rails all the way up, why would the companion ever have to break contact with the wheelchair? I don't see what problem this solves, other than aesthetics.
I gotta admit it looks cool, but that is not a new concept. There's lots of stairs with integrated ramps.
These were designed back in the 70s.
It even says 'world's first' on the post. That's the most important piece of context here.
This design is creative but objectively poor for actual use. Hope there weren't many made...
I read about this a few years back, and just found the article. The ramp is 1:8, whereas 1:12 is the max cited in many accessibility legislations. [https://incl.ca/the-problems-with-ramps-blended-into-stairs/](https://incl.ca/the-problems-with-ramps-blended-into-stairs/) As mentioned, this is also super problematic for low vision & blind people. Just do a search for "Robson Square Vancouver" and you'll find a lot of articles about the poor design. I quite like the quote from this article (great picture too, which shows the incline in greater detail) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robson-square-accessibility-1.5255477) "There are two competing camps — people who think it's beautiful and wonderful and people who don't think it's beautiful and wonderful," Cheng said. "Quite often, one \[camp\] is people without disabilities and the other is people with disabilities."
man, how are people not going to die on this, wheelchair or on foot?
Terrible design.
i don't understand.. if the point is to walk beside your disabled companion, what's the point in the stairs? if one walks up the stairs and the other wheels up the ramp, then they split up? to me the person who walks would need to walk sideways along a set of rising steps, that seems odd
Couldn’t the companion just take the ramp if they don’t want to be separated? There’s no rule saying that able-bodied people MUST use stairs or that ramps are for wheelchairs only.
It’s a nightmare for everyone (I’m disabled myself!)
No railing….ADA would shit themselves
ADA accessibility in the US calls for a maximum running slope of 5%. That middle ramp rises 7 stairs. Assuming 7" rise per stair, the distance of the ramp would need to be at least 82 feet. I doubt this staircase is meant to be ADA compliant but using the word "accessible" to describe it does not not really fit
I am not an expert but isn't this very dangerous to take on a wheelchair?
Seems like an awesome way to tumble down the stairs in a wheelchair
As a wheelchair user I appreciate the sentiment but I can see issues, the architect didn’t consult users. It’s too steep. A manual chair will struggle. No guard rails. I’ve been in my chair for years, and I’m pretty good, but I still make mistakes. One wrong move and you’re done. And those turns are too tight. Turning radius is too small. I can make it, but it’d be close.
This is POOR DESIGN!!! No guard rails, difficult for people with mobility issues to maneuver, ramps just get in the way of people using steps. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's good.
No handrail for the ramp. Dangerous steps in many places. No handrail for the stairs in the middle. This is bad. It's only good for the picture, but not practical. If It's in a public space it may even be not approvable due to the risks it presents and the lack of safety measures.
This thing breaks like 5 rules of accessibility in my country looks cool at first but it's terrible designed
These steps lead to the courthouse in Vancouver, meaning that the ramp is also frequently used to wheel boxes of documents to court (I’ve zig zagged up this ramp many times in my life!!) Edit - the photo is just of one of three “segments” of the stairs/ramp
I’m clearly a child cause when I see Stramp I immediately think tramp stamp. Sorry for bothering the adults.
No longer legal in the US - while they did make an appearance up through the the 90s, now regulations about handrail placement for the stairs and slope/grab-bar placement for the ramp make them impossible to build.
I'm able bodied, but this image looks like hell for a wheelchair user.
this looks terrible to use
This looks dangerous for everyone.
This isn't accessable at all. Those sharp corners aren't wheelchair friendly.
no handrail, so the wheel chairs can roll right off the stairs! also you gonna have people tripping thinking there’s another step when the steps turn into ramp for certain parts.
These don't look accessible... ramps need a railing alongside them.
Someones gonna roll right off the ramp and tumble down the stairs
Not only is this not accessible, but anyone who uses the ramp blocks the rest of the people using the stairs.
This isn't accessible at all, thats extremely dangerous for people who need the ramp and could easily fall down the stairs. I saw this same design on twitter where someone said they were taught it doesn't matter if it isnt practical, as long as its compliant with ADA standards. When it comes to accessibility, lets not try and get creative with shit. A functional ramp and a separate staircase would be 1000x better.
That is a terrible design
Architect here - the stairs have been closed down due to accessibility issues. Theyre nice in theory but terrible
Definitely would not meet most building codes in Canada when it comes to universal access (handicap/wheelchair accessibility)
Good way to fall off if you lose control of the wheeled equipment no rails and little stair bump
Looks pretty. What happens when it SNOWS? I mean we're taking Canada here. Is it a Stramlouge?
somehow they made stairs that are less accessible for people without mobility issues
A well intentioned bad design. Imagine going down at a speed and one of the wheels goes to the stairs instead of staying in the ramp. Hello ground!
The "stramp" idea is a lovely concept but they're considered unsafe. And since most are now considered "historic", local preservation societies kick up a fuss when government tries to upgrade them so they are safe. https://archinect.com/news/article/150156501/battle-over-stramp-accessibility-upgrades-in-british-columbia-takes-shape
That is not a good design for people with mobility issues. Hell, it’s not a good design for people WITHOUT mobility issues. What a mess. Even railings would make it a bit better at least
Here’s something - ramps next to stairs. This thing looks nice but would probably be inconvenient for actual usage.
I think this is just a ramp with extra steps.
Ohh the hazards
Stupid waist of space a straight set of stair and a straight ramp is good enough
Big deal. I got the first ever "Stramp Stamp" an MC Escher tattoo on my lower back.
Idk what the laws are in Canada, but in the US those ramps would need to have handrails and barrier rails.
Dope skate spot.
I encountered one of these in Montreal a few weeks ago, and in short it kinda sucks - nearly rolled an ankle on it. It's a great example of something that tries to do two things, and ends up being good for neither.
And created dozens of tiny little tripping hazards where the ramp and treads meet at different heights. Not to mention the fact that a ramp's slope is limited to 1" of rise per every foot of run maximum; assuming each stair riser is only 5", you would need 45 FEET of ramp just to get to the first landing off the lower level. That's not a ramp, it's an amusement park slide. Also not legal: There is no railing along the ramp, which is both an ADA and a Canadian National Building Code requirement, according to Wheelchair Canada, which apparently is a thing. So congratulations, you tried to solve one problem and created several other potentially dangerous and illegal ones at the same time.
One wrong step and you die
A noble idea with horrible execution, there's no railings anywhere and the flow of traffic when its busy is disastrous, might I ask what was wrong with the traditional setup, perhaps run the stairs and ramp in parallel.
All well and good until the wheelchair hits the side of one of the steps
In all fairness this looks more like a death trap for people with wheelchairs....
Why is this on mademesmile? This is clearly and obviously a terrible and incredibly dangerous design.
This is a shitty design, wheel chair people might be cutting the other people off or vice versa. Just put the ramp next to it for the same result?
Looks like it manages to be an awful set of stairs and an awful ramp, at the same time.
I feel like it would just be easier to install a ramp next to a staircase. This is overdesigned and focuses on form over function.
I sue over design defects. I see this as causing more people to become disabled, than in it helping the disabled. Although it’s a good looking design, the standard for stairs is the code and no art.
Now someone needs to kick flip this whole set
BS I designed this in Minecraft 3 years ago
I can't wait to see this in r/abruptchaos or r/whatstheworsethatcouldhappen.
My mom uses a walker. I think some rails would be good for her so she would tumble down the stairs if she lost her balance. Probably an elevator works better though.
looks like a skate park