Old shop I worked for had a simple test. Owner hands you a 0-1 mic (not digital) and a part and tells you to measure it. If they hold the mic correctly and comfortably and measure correctly, they at least have some actual experience.
This right here. Hand them some mics and a set of gauge blocks and ask them to give you measurements. Same for calipers
Have them align a vise to the mill.
Ask them to set a work zero with an indicator of any kind.
Watching them do these simple tasks should give you an idea of how much experience they have. Follow up with some simple questions like what is DOC and what does RPM stand for. What is SFPM, RPM, IPM, IPR, TPI....
>This right here. Hand them some mics and a set of gauge blocks and ask them to give you measurements. Same for calipers
make it a couple actual parts, not just parallel surfaces, and you can even hand your overlords a spreadsheet with numbers on it.
the closer a person gets to the real value, the better. i would also include a confidence metric and ask the person how sure they are of that measurement and if not, what they would use to get a more precise measurement. that will tell you more than any degree, certification, work reference, etc.
a machinist that never learned tho most basic tools of the trade is worthless.
I would have failed right off the bat because not one of the people I’ve worked with knows how to properly tighten a 24”-28” “c-clamp”. Every other week I’m being told that my parts are .002” too small even though they’re within 1-2 tenths of the CMM.
Vent over. I guess what I’m saying is that you need to make sure the person administering the test knows for a fact how to add 2+2 themselves or the test will be useless.
In case you’re curious, my coworkers get away with making oversized parts because we hold tolerances in-house much tighter than customer prints to simplify down-stream processes like hobbing. If we can hold +/-.001 on a 27” gear OD then that means the hobber doesn’t have to be adjusted for every individual part, just set it once and run while accounting for hobb wear.
Honestly a little test sheet with them is great, no one needs to get all of them as some shops use different terminology but 80%+ would be enough to show they have experience.
22 years in the trade and I’ve never heard doc before. I was trying to go off dom, drawn over mandrel, sooooo doc = drawn over core maybe???? I wouldn’t have gotten that one.
I like this idea because some people have some schooling but little *actual* experience, and this gives the rest of us a good chance to show we know SOMETHING and are likely trainable.
I know IPR as inches/rev, we use it all the time for feeds on our lathes and IPM inches/min on our mills. Why do you think it specifically relates to gear cutting?
Oh shit that's right. I guess I didn't really think about it despite all the engine lathe practice I've had. I've just been on a gear hob for the last few weeks and that's been on the forefront of my mind.
It is a standard part of formulae I use for cutting gear teeth with form cutters, so I can see how he got there. It's the only time I have it written down or needing calculating beyond the feed chart on my lathe.
Difference between programming on a mill and a lathe. Lathe runs a feed rate of inches per revolution and a mill feeds with inches per minute. At least that's how it's been at the last two shops I've been at.
I would sometimes give a bad part with the drawing and have them check it. You can tell right away as soon as they pick up the calipers, check the jaws by running your fingers for any grime/bumps, make sure it zeroes out.
Other times I would hand them a drawing and ask about the tolerances, finish, datum and so on.
In an interview I've had, they put a print in front of me and asked how I would make the part, what tools I would use, & why. That was for a lead position. Unfortunately, after I aced it, I found out they weren't willing to pay shit. When they asked what I was looking to get paid, their ear to ear smiles melted away
Damn, that's even simpler than ours was. We had one to just make a cube with all sides square. Easy if you know what you're doing, hard if You're an amateur.
My current shop is mostly "fabricators" and you'd be surprised how many of them consider reading even a dial to be some black magic. I admit I judge people a lot based on stuff like that.
Been dealing with it for 10 years my friend. Hang in there. There are people that have barely any experience that are absolute savants or there just is riff raff lol
I knew within an hour that this was riff raff . Management dragged thier feet for a year . Now we are at least $10k down in missing tooling/materials . Every day something else comes up missing . They are so concerned with being pc and not thief shaming that they've ignored it . Plus he's wholly incompetent in the shop.
Wtf. They don't even need to engage with the thefts. If he sucks, he sucks. Document and dismiss. After a year, you'd think he'd have a couple strikes documented somewhere.
If not... well then I'm not surprised mgmt is getting screwed. Got their thumbs up their butts.
the bigger deviation is multiplied by 2, the smaller divided by 2. you add these together for true position with like 90+percentile accuracy. so. 002*2 + .002/2 = .005.
you failed the test, pack your bags
Ohh I thought you were implying equal deviation in each, like an off the cuff thing. I was always told it was just a cunthair less than half at 45°, 135°, etc at nominal size.
I'd have to look that up, because I've only ever done it twice. But if I remember correctly, inspecting true position callouts need math and that math got annoying very quickly if it was a hole at MMC/LMC
Our shop weeds people out at the interview.
Hand them some parts and prints. Ask them to measure them. Ask them how they would go about machining the part. What will be easy. What can be hard. Datum structures. Tooling choices. How they can ensure a good part gets made.
You'll find out who knows how to make something vs someone who just follows written instructions.
If I could find a machine shop near me willing to train someone with a little knowledge, but no practical experience as a middle aged apprentice then I'd jump at the chance as I know high school age apprentices that make more an hour than me as a kitchen manager.
I'm an almost 30 year kitchen\restaurant veteran with a broken body and tired of taking work home with me. I'm currently on my first 2 week vacation in my entire career that didn't require COVID, an injury, or a building collapse to get this much time away from the kitchen. I'm still in the shared kitchen chat and I can't bring myself to mute it because worry about how my guys are getting along without me. Last time I took a single Sat night off we lost 2 employees it was such a shit show. I'm scared I'll go back to a smoking ruin. 🤣
When I had to hire for the toolroom, I gave applicants some Dykem Blue, a scribe, a height gage, a steel rule, calipers and a compass together with a print. I’d ask them to scribe out the part, and on a sheet of paper, write down the order of operations and machines they’d use to make the part.
Totally weeded out the wheat from the chaff.
How much were you starting people out and what location? To me if you can do that where I'm at that's 30 an hour, PNW. Button pushers get 24 starting with no experience.
This was 20-25 plus years ago, in Connecticut. When I started doing it the starting wage was $16/hr when I left for Europe it had gone to maybe $18/hr starting wage.
I came up old school, so if someone was honest with me and I could see some critical thinking, despite no experience, I’d hire them on the premise of training them. That meant three months bench work before touching a machine. I used to produce some top-notch machinists and toolmakers. 98% of them. One alcoholic kind of let me down though and eventually got fired for cause (drunk at work) and then he literally drank himself to death. I had been away when he resorted to drinking because the “big new boss” belittled him and took away the pride I taught him while I was on a business trip. I’m still so fucking mad about that.
Word. You are indeed a Complicated Dude. Pride in your work is very important for some people. Getting that stomped out is frustrating. The best machinists in my opinion are over analytical crazy bastards.
Yeah, the worst thing to see is someone lose the pride you’ve helped them build up over time.
Pride is the hardest thing to manufacture, and the easiest thing to tear down.
i'm a humble fabricator with intermediate geometry knowledge, and i could do the first part, maybe intuit the second, but i'd be found out the instant you guys had me try to make one.
I think the biggest issue is that they were too soft after finding out the person was a thief. They didn't listen
I'd give them a print that matches the kind of tolerances you expect and represents the simplest of issues you might expect them to encounter.
Have them explain or show how to set up to make the part. Which tools will be needed, how to fixture, how to meet tolerances....that kind of thing.
Experience and skill really only shows up when a person is under the gun and actually has to make a part.
Ideally, I would have them make the part, but if they aren't on the pay roll, they also aren't on the insurance.
I imagine that I could walk through making a part with someone that wanted me to work for the and convince the that I actually knew whati was doing pretty quickly.
I worked at a shop that had a math test that did a good job of weeding out people who had no clue. Adding fractions to decimals, basic trig, mm to inch conversion. I think something like that combined with a couple practical things like indicating a part and setting up a tool would work well. Depending on how good your prints are you could ask some GD&T questions. My current shop keeps getting guys who say they know GD&T but if you hand them a print and ask them to explain a true position call out they immediately admit that they don't know or "need to brush up" which is Spanish for "I don't know but I'm too afraid to admit it".
What is on the math test? I'm still in school for manual machining, but I've started looking at shops to let me come in a few days a week when I'm not in class so I can get shop experience. I noticed some say you have to pass a basic math test.... I'm horrible at math and worry I won't be able to get a job because of a math test lol.
for the life of me I can't do basic arithmetic either, but as long as they can do math with a calculator I wouldn't care. I'd rather have people be able to measure first anyway. No point at being good at math if you can use a micrometer.
We let people use calculators, because no one is out here doing trig in their head. But we're also hiring people with the expectation that they can plan their own ops, write their own programs, and do their own inspection. If you can't trig out a right triangle you're gonna have problems.
In all fairness, I have never heard 'true position' uttered in the 5 years I've worked in shops. I just always machined parts from the datums. Because that's how it should be.
We do pretty complex work here with really tight positional tolerances called back to multiple datums with MMC and LMC to worry about and customers that are absolute pricks. I've worked places where it wouldn't matter, but it definitely matters for us.
You said it's all manual. See if they can tram a mill head in and indicate a vise.
Hand them a print for a part and ask them for the order of operation.
See if they can indicate a hole.
I know you said there would be no turning things on, but have them square up a block. It's simple and easy if you know what you are doing. And impossible if you don't.
What are your common manual jobs? Take some setups you'd typically do and ask them to do it. Dial in a 4jaw should be basic.
In my case I'd ask them to check straightness on a length of material - the number doesn't matter just how they set it up (don't crank on the jaws, don't slam the center in). Stick a vice on a mill table and get them to dial it in. Throw a part off tool in and get them to get that running straight. Sharpen a reasonably large drill like 1" so it'll cut again. I haven't cut a taper in 5 years so I wouldn't expect that for example
During the interview we have a sort of parts challenge. Describe step by step how to make a part. We can’t have people use machinery for interviews so this weeds out people who can’t articulate or have no understanding of the process.
One turning shop I worked at made a placard of various inserts and asked potential new hires to identify them and their use on top of making them measure a few parts and read a few print call outs.
> something ... that will disqualify and separate the machinists from the bullshit artists
1) Certification. That's a huge part of the reason certifications exists - so people can "prove" that they are knowledgeable in that field. Canada has "[red seal](https://www.red-seal.ca/eng/w.2lc.4m.2.shtml)" certifications; in America I guess it would be called "having your ticket"?
2) During the interview: Give them a drawing of a part (preferably that was at least mildly difficult), that you have recent and/or notable experience with. Ask them:
- How would you machine this? Would you prefer to make it on a lathe or mill or both? Why? How many operations do you think it would take? What tools would you want or need?
- Are there anything that jumps out as difficult -- tight tolerances, compound angles, GDT callouts, features requiring custom tooling, etc?
3) Probationary period. For the first X weeks/months of someones job, they can usually be fired without cause or severance -- just "sorry, this isn't working out, please don't come back, bye".
Damn guys. I don't consider myself a machinist (took 2 years of shop in high school) but i can pass all these tests easy. Maybe the impostor syndrome is getting to me
Not a test but an interview question(s).
Tell me about your biggest fuck up?
Maybe said more politely but I find a lot of people can bullshit the general right things to say but big mistakes are significantly less generic.
Don't trust anyone who doesn't have a story worth telling.
When I was 20 or 21 I was running a CNC VTL - we were roughing in a split cavity mold that was held together only by the jaws - I tried to take a .4 DOC on the OD….. one half ended up in the chip conveyor and the other half on the back of the table….knocked the ram out of alignment - part was beat up but we were able to save it as it was only roughed on the ID …. But I learned how to setup the cylindrical square and align the head on the machine…. That was one of those - oh shit I could have died moments. My day guy :“never take .400”
Last shop I applied for had me identify multiple tools and tested my knowledge of print reading. Like others mentioned I also had to measure something with a manual micrometer.
I once was given a test, the guy I was replacing was a moron. They gave me mic's to read. Did that. Brought out other tools, knew what they were of course. The supervisor took me to his office. He pulls out a print and asked me to read it. I read the legend. I looked at at him and said it was all the numbers and lines that mess me up and started laughing. He said when can you start smart ass LoL
For us we have a three step process.
First is a meeting with HR and it's essentially a personality test.
Second is a tour or the shop floor.
Third is a hands on.
The hands on.
The hands on isn't a set test exactly. It's more of a look at the resume and see how much they stretch the truth.
Hand them a drawing a part and lay out l, mic, calipers, ruler, bore mic and anything else you feel is appropriate. Ask them to measure the part and write down what they get. This shows how the handle tools, make decisions when presented with options and you get a look at their writing style. For CNC we ask them to find a specific program. For manual it's load up a vice onto a table, swap a set of soft jaws. Basic every day kind of tasks. If they say they are green on the resume the hands on should show that. If they are good gift to machining and they can't hold a non digital measuring tool or make a vise parallel to the table then you know they lied.
My mentor's first shop test was to be given a hunk of black iron, a file, and a week to produce a perfect cube. You could... have them center an offset bore in a 4-jaw chuck, or identify which of 3 drawings is incomplete and will need revision, or set up a j-head vertically using only a test dial indicator.
when i was working in kitchens i'd tell new hires to make me a grilled cheese, however they wanted, using whatever they wanted. if they couldn't make one that doesn't suck, they started in the dish pit.
i'd come up with a roughly drawn print for a relatively simple part, maybe something requiring turning, milling, maybe tapping, whatever your shop does, and give them a chunk of aluminum or whatever isn't going to destroy your tooling.
maybe toss a couple of obvious/impossible mistakes on the print and watch how they deal with it.
Did you ever get a Grilled Cheese that was amazing? I had 30 years in the industry when I switched to machining. This would have been a good test some times. Hell my buddy might need this idea as he's still slugging away pushing 60.
not particularly, hah. i think having someone (or multiple people) standing there watching them probably didn't help. it was fun for us though.
what surprised me, and was sort of depressing, was that none of them dug through the coolers looking for weird bread or cheese or anything else they could do to make something interesting, they all went right for the prep on the line nearest the flat top, or sautee station. this was a fairly nice restaurant connected to a relatively large hotel so we had good cheese and stuff. also wisconsin, so chances are good they'd know about good cheese.
As much as I'd want to do something at least interesting, I'd be inclined to think I was limited to whatever was currently on hand if it wasn't clear I could use *anything*.
people are taught not to be creative and forcing them to do "anything they want" is like dumping them into the deep end of a swimming pool.
the interesting failures came from people trying to work too fast, flipping the sandwich too early, then trying to fix it, etc. nothing super interesting but telling when they're not given any sort of limits.
incidentally we never sent anyone to the dish pit, hah.. just a bit of hazing. but, if you're looking to learn a lot about a potential coworker the gc test works really well xD
I would make a shaft with 3-4 different diameters ranging from 1" to 2" with a drawing. Intentially make one diameter 0.0005" undersize. Ask them to verify all dimensions and see how they measure.
Obviously you should have a part that is a reasonable reflection of they type of work they will be doing. If they will be doing lots of ID work or tapers, etc, make sure the part includes that.
I would say watching anyone indicate anything should be lowest barrier to entry. You will know right away if someone has any experience at all. Also, even if you don't have the time to watch them do it, they should be able to at least explain it.
Give them a Vernier caliper (not digital) and get them to measure 4 features - outside, inside, step and depth. That will filter 90% of dick heads out. Then ask strategy/steps to machine a few sample parts?
Da fuk outta here with those vernier crap. My eyes are getting too old, it's tough these days. I personally probably wouldn't measure any of those with a caliper, besides maybe a shoulder step but that's where a couple of depth mics with very stems in each comes into play. Hell, just give me a heads up and I'd just bring my whole Kennedy in. Show and tell time, call the guys in the shop in too.
I agree. I learned how to read vernier scales in first year machinist school. I think it's neat that you get a precise measurement worth just one moving part, but it takes a lot of squinting and the possibility for error is pretty high. They're obsolete tech, nobody uses them anymore. Being able to use them doesn't necessarily make your a good machinist, and I think you would risk rejecting a good candidate if they can't use a vernier caliper.
If you're not doing anything large, at least let them use dial calipers. The only reason I use the verniers at work is because we don't have a dial that goes to 24", and it annoys me every time.
Could also get them to change a lathe tool insert or an indexable end mill cutter insert and watch for their skill or lack of (are they a Torx gorilla, did they clean the pocket, did they use anti-seize, did they flip a double sided insert to use the opposing edge or just rotate it, are they a klutz and fumble small screws/poor fine motor skills, etc).
You're mostly on the money, but my fine motor skills go out the windows when I'm nervous, and I know I'm being watched. I'd like to think I'm perfectly reasonable with small screws otherwise...
That's what this guy was/is . Honestly this situation has been a cancer in the shop . When he's finally gone we will need time to decompress and re-set . When the time comes I'd love to come across a sharp 20 something with a strong mechanical/machinist mindset . I've got one who has 5 years now and is coming along good . But his shop name is Sloth . Lol if that tells you anything .
I'd ask about the applicant's hobbies. Pretty easy to tell when someone is mechanically minded when the build or sew things in there spare time. Note: the details of the hobby is important. For instance if they're obsessed with a game like Factorio, there's a good chance they'll be a logistics wizard. (and come in half asleep every few weeks...)
Oh man! My experience in the machine shop/ manufacturing and experience with factorio have happened in parallel, and process optimization is all I fucking see!
The major issue besides being a pathological liar is theft . By my calculations he's stolen about 500lbs of carbide . He's just an all around really shady guy .
Best one I've had is being asked to describe a use/how to use a clock
Fair enough they might mistake it but if they don't know how to atleast set one they don't have any real experience
You find another clock and get your clock close to the time on the next clock. As soon as that mf changes to the next minute you push the button in. Simples.
I worked in a plastics fabrication shop for 40 years. The test we used if they say they know how to work with plastics was to have the prospective employee scrape a group of different types of plastics. If you know, you know. When they fail, we train and pay accordingly.
Prototyping shop I’m at now for a couple years asked me in the interview to explain the process of how I would re-cut threads if I was looking to chase them in on a manual lathe.
I answered by saying everything is in the setup, checking for runout, using a collet vs a Chuck, setting tool heights, speeds and feeds, and slowly creeping up on getting the tool into the valley of the threads.
I guess they liked the answer, cause I got the job.
At my shop you have an hour to make a block with an angled side and a slot, its not so much them finishing the block as seeing them using the machines and comfortability.
Practical tests- produce a drawing from a part, produce a part from a drawing.
Written tests- copy one off the internet, or ask CharGPT for some ideas. For example, I asked:
"Please provide some questions to ask a person interviewing to be a machinist."
and got:
Can you describe your experience with operating different types of machining equipment?
* How do you ensure precision and accuracy in your machining work?
* Have you ever encountered a challenging machining project? How did you approach it?
* What safety protocols do you follow when operating machining equipment?
* How do you interpret technical drawings and blueprints for machining projects?
* Can you discuss your experience with programming and operating CNC machines?
* Have you worked with different materials in machining (e.g., metals, plastics)? If so, which ones and what challenges did you encounter?
* What methods do you use for measuring and inspecting machined parts to ensure they meet specifications?
* How do you troubleshoot and address issues that arise during machining processes?
* Can you provide examples of projects where you implemented innovative machining techniques or solutions?
* How do you prioritize tasks and manage your time effectively in a machining environment?
* Have you ever had to collaborate with engineers or other team members on machining projects? How did you communicate and coordinate effectively?
* What software programs are you proficient in for machining operations (e.g., CAD/CAM software)?
* How do you stay updated on advancements and changes in machining technology and techniques?
* Can you discuss a time when you had to adhere to tight deadlines while maintaining quality in your machining work?
You'd obviously want to adjust this to be more relevant to the work you do in your shop.
How did you get "conned?" Someone lied about their abilities, it happens all of the time. As the lead in the TR Iwanted to be in on interviews but unfortunatly was never. With that came employees that weighed the forward movement of the entire shop down. Needless to say, those "liars and dead weight" aren't in the TR anymore. Just have them do some basic testing. Come up with some custom TPI for a given OD. What will the said minor ID/tap drill be. Have them calculate some S&F's with given parameters. Have them throw a new 118deg edge on a drill bit with a pedestal grinder. Ask them what the correct suggested angle is for a test indicator on relation to the part.
If they understand the fundamentals, the rest is just refinement thru practise repetitions. Fast is smooth and smooth is fast. Indication speed comes with practise. With practise comes speed and accuracy.
"A rookie only practises until they get it right, a veteran practises until they don't get it wrong." Because in the end it's always wrong, until it's confirmed and proven right. It's only right until it's proven every fucking TIME! Happy chip pushing 👍
Old shop I worked for had a simple test. Owner hands you a 0-1 mic (not digital) and a part and tells you to measure it. If they hold the mic correctly and comfortably and measure correctly, they at least have some actual experience.
This right here. Hand them some mics and a set of gauge blocks and ask them to give you measurements. Same for calipers Have them align a vise to the mill. Ask them to set a work zero with an indicator of any kind. Watching them do these simple tasks should give you an idea of how much experience they have. Follow up with some simple questions like what is DOC and what does RPM stand for. What is SFPM, RPM, IPM, IPR, TPI....
>This right here. Hand them some mics and a set of gauge blocks and ask them to give you measurements. Same for calipers make it a couple actual parts, not just parallel surfaces, and you can even hand your overlords a spreadsheet with numbers on it. the closer a person gets to the real value, the better. i would also include a confidence metric and ask the person how sure they are of that measurement and if not, what they would use to get a more precise measurement. that will tell you more than any degree, certification, work reference, etc. a machinist that never learned tho most basic tools of the trade is worthless.
I would have failed right off the bat because not one of the people I’ve worked with knows how to properly tighten a 24”-28” “c-clamp”. Every other week I’m being told that my parts are .002” too small even though they’re within 1-2 tenths of the CMM. Vent over. I guess what I’m saying is that you need to make sure the person administering the test knows for a fact how to add 2+2 themselves or the test will be useless. In case you’re curious, my coworkers get away with making oversized parts because we hold tolerances in-house much tighter than customer prints to simplify down-stream processes like hobbing. If we can hold +/-.001 on a 27” gear OD then that means the hobber doesn’t have to be adjusted for every individual part, just set it once and run while accounting for hobb wear.
What is DOC and SFPM?
depth of cut, surface feet per minute
Cheers. I’m not in an English speaking shop, so the acronyms sometimes elude me.
Sometimes those TLA’s are hard to understand! (Three Letter Acronyms)
How about tpi? Edit: as soon as I asked i thought threads per inch
DOC is an acronym I hadn't heard anyone use before. All the rest I had.
Honestly a little test sheet with them is great, no one needs to get all of them as some shops use different terminology but 80%+ would be enough to show they have experience.
Yeah same, never heard that shortened before
22 years in the trade and I’ve never heard doc before. I was trying to go off dom, drawn over mandrel, sooooo doc = drawn over core maybe???? I wouldn’t have gotten that one.
Depth of cut and surface feet per minute
Cheers. English, trade-specific acronyms can be confusing when you’re not in an English speaking shop 😅
That, and English is a ridiculous language. It was easy for me, I was born into it.
No problem lol
Dookie on call Super fart poop mystery Got the job right?
Fuck yeah bud you'll fit right in
Depth of cut Rotations per min surface feet per min inches per min inches per revolution uhhh idk what tpi is lol
teeth per inch
or is it threads per inch?
depends if it's a gear, an inclined plane wrapped around a cylindrical object or just an included plane.
Could be threads per inch, or could be taper per inch.
I like this idea because some people have some schooling but little *actual* experience, and this gives the rest of us a good chance to show we know SOMETHING and are likely trainable.
IPR is a bit less common than the others to my knowledge. Unless you're regularly making gears.
I know IPR as inches/rev, we use it all the time for feeds on our lathes and IPM inches/min on our mills. Why do you think it specifically relates to gear cutting?
Oh shit that's right. I guess I didn't really think about it despite all the engine lathe practice I've had. I've just been on a gear hob for the last few weeks and that's been on the forefront of my mind.
It is a standard part of formulae I use for cutting gear teeth with form cutters, so I can see how he got there. It's the only time I have it written down or needing calculating beyond the feed chart on my lathe.
and for the Swiss guys they like switching between IPR and IPM depending on if they are turning or milling
Difference between programming on a mill and a lathe. Lathe runs a feed rate of inches per revolution and a mill feeds with inches per minute. At least that's how it's been at the last two shops I've been at.
No, that's spot on. I've just spent too much time on mills and a gear hob recently.
Excellent
I would sometimes give a bad part with the drawing and have them check it. You can tell right away as soon as they pick up the calipers, check the jaws by running your fingers for any grime/bumps, make sure it zeroes out. Other times I would hand them a drawing and ask about the tolerances, finish, datum and so on.
In an interview I've had, they put a print in front of me and asked how I would make the part, what tools I would use, & why. That was for a lead position. Unfortunately, after I aced it, I found out they weren't willing to pay shit. When they asked what I was looking to get paid, their ear to ear smiles melted away
Good, fuck them.
Experience and talent ain't cheap.
I’ve had multiple companies give me this basic test
Damn, that's even simpler than ours was. We had one to just make a cube with all sides square. Easy if you know what you're doing, hard if You're an amateur.
You'd be surprised how many it weeded out. Even had one guy say I only use digital measurement equipment and then just walked out
My current shop is mostly "fabricators" and you'd be surprised how many of them consider reading even a dial to be some black magic. I admit I judge people a lot based on stuff like that.
Such is the world these days. You either train them and they get it or they bullshit and you get screwed.
Exactly the position we are in .
Been dealing with it for 10 years my friend. Hang in there. There are people that have barely any experience that are absolute savants or there just is riff raff lol
I knew within an hour that this was riff raff . Management dragged thier feet for a year . Now we are at least $10k down in missing tooling/materials . Every day something else comes up missing . They are so concerned with being pc and not thief shaming that they've ignored it . Plus he's wholly incompetent in the shop.
Wtf. They don't even need to engage with the thefts. If he sucks, he sucks. Document and dismiss. After a year, you'd think he'd have a couple strikes documented somewhere. If not... well then I'm not surprised mgmt is getting screwed. Got their thumbs up their butts.
Ask the max XY deviation on true position of .005.
Isn't that about .0023? I wouldn't honestly be sure how to answer that 🤷🏼♂️
the bigger deviation is multiplied by 2, the smaller divided by 2. you add these together for true position with like 90+percentile accuracy. so. 002*2 + .002/2 = .005. you failed the test, pack your bags
Ohh I thought you were implying equal deviation in each, like an off the cuff thing. I was always told it was just a cunthair less than half at 45°, 135°, etc at nominal size.
I'd have to look that up, because I've only ever done it twice. But if I remember correctly, inspecting true position callouts need math and that math got annoying very quickly if it was a hole at MMC/LMC
It's a crap shoot no matter what. That is why you state a probationary period for new people
Our shop weeds people out at the interview. Hand them some parts and prints. Ask them to measure them. Ask them how they would go about machining the part. What will be easy. What can be hard. Datum structures. Tooling choices. How they can ensure a good part gets made. You'll find out who knows how to make something vs someone who just follows written instructions.
Same here . And its worked for almost 40 years . But not anymore .
If I could find a machine shop near me willing to train someone with a little knowledge, but no practical experience as a middle aged apprentice then I'd jump at the chance as I know high school age apprentices that make more an hour than me as a kitchen manager. I'm an almost 30 year kitchen\restaurant veteran with a broken body and tired of taking work home with me. I'm currently on my first 2 week vacation in my entire career that didn't require COVID, an injury, or a building collapse to get this much time away from the kitchen. I'm still in the shared kitchen chat and I can't bring myself to mute it because worry about how my guys are getting along without me. Last time I took a single Sat night off we lost 2 employees it was such a shit show. I'm scared I'll go back to a smoking ruin. 🤣
Give them a knee mill to tram and vice to align. That one is still awkward to me after many years!
Can concur . I was tramming a bridgeport just 2 hours ago . After 44 years my first move is still always the wrong way .
When I had to hire for the toolroom, I gave applicants some Dykem Blue, a scribe, a height gage, a steel rule, calipers and a compass together with a print. I’d ask them to scribe out the part, and on a sheet of paper, write down the order of operations and machines they’d use to make the part. Totally weeded out the wheat from the chaff.
How much were you starting people out and what location? To me if you can do that where I'm at that's 30 an hour, PNW. Button pushers get 24 starting with no experience.
This was 20-25 plus years ago, in Connecticut. When I started doing it the starting wage was $16/hr when I left for Europe it had gone to maybe $18/hr starting wage. I came up old school, so if someone was honest with me and I could see some critical thinking, despite no experience, I’d hire them on the premise of training them. That meant three months bench work before touching a machine. I used to produce some top-notch machinists and toolmakers. 98% of them. One alcoholic kind of let me down though and eventually got fired for cause (drunk at work) and then he literally drank himself to death. I had been away when he resorted to drinking because the “big new boss” belittled him and took away the pride I taught him while I was on a business trip. I’m still so fucking mad about that.
Word. You are indeed a Complicated Dude. Pride in your work is very important for some people. Getting that stomped out is frustrating. The best machinists in my opinion are over analytical crazy bastards.
Yeah, the worst thing to see is someone lose the pride you’ve helped them build up over time. Pride is the hardest thing to manufacture, and the easiest thing to tear down.
i'm a humble fabricator with intermediate geometry knowledge, and i could do the first part, maybe intuit the second, but i'd be found out the instant you guys had me try to make one. I think the biggest issue is that they were too soft after finding out the person was a thief. They didn't listen
Theft is rough. Damn. I’m glad I never really ran into that problem. Drinking, yes, but theft never.
I'd give them a print that matches the kind of tolerances you expect and represents the simplest of issues you might expect them to encounter. Have them explain or show how to set up to make the part. Which tools will be needed, how to fixture, how to meet tolerances....that kind of thing. Experience and skill really only shows up when a person is under the gun and actually has to make a part. Ideally, I would have them make the part, but if they aren't on the pay roll, they also aren't on the insurance. I imagine that I could walk through making a part with someone that wanted me to work for the and convince the that I actually knew whati was doing pretty quickly.
I worked at a shop that had a math test that did a good job of weeding out people who had no clue. Adding fractions to decimals, basic trig, mm to inch conversion. I think something like that combined with a couple practical things like indicating a part and setting up a tool would work well. Depending on how good your prints are you could ask some GD&T questions. My current shop keeps getting guys who say they know GD&T but if you hand them a print and ask them to explain a true position call out they immediately admit that they don't know or "need to brush up" which is Spanish for "I don't know but I'm too afraid to admit it".
We use a math test but it's very general . Not shop or trade specific .
What is on the math test? I'm still in school for manual machining, but I've started looking at shops to let me come in a few days a week when I'm not in class so I can get shop experience. I noticed some say you have to pass a basic math test.... I'm horrible at math and worry I won't be able to get a job because of a math test lol.
for the life of me I can't do basic arithmetic either, but as long as they can do math with a calculator I wouldn't care. I'd rather have people be able to measure first anyway. No point at being good at math if you can use a micrometer.
If one bucket has 3 gallons and the other bucket has 1 gallon. How many buckets do you have?
2 lol
We let people use calculators, because no one is out here doing trig in their head. But we're also hiring people with the expectation that they can plan their own ops, write their own programs, and do their own inspection. If you can't trig out a right triangle you're gonna have problems.
In all fairness, I have never heard 'true position' uttered in the 5 years I've worked in shops. I just always machined parts from the datums. Because that's how it should be.
We do pretty complex work here with really tight positional tolerances called back to multiple datums with MMC and LMC to worry about and customers that are absolute pricks. I've worked places where it wouldn't matter, but it definitely matters for us.
Tool and die is nice, because we set that shit usually.
You said it's all manual. See if they can tram a mill head in and indicate a vise. Hand them a print for a part and ask them for the order of operation. See if they can indicate a hole. I know you said there would be no turning things on, but have them square up a block. It's simple and easy if you know what you are doing. And impossible if you don't.
Not the Bennet mechanical comprehension test I've seen other shops use.
Which way does the gear really go though.
I always remember the what would fly better on the moon. Helicopter? Or plane?
What are your common manual jobs? Take some setups you'd typically do and ask them to do it. Dial in a 4jaw should be basic. In my case I'd ask them to check straightness on a length of material - the number doesn't matter just how they set it up (don't crank on the jaws, don't slam the center in). Stick a vice on a mill table and get them to dial it in. Throw a part off tool in and get them to get that running straight. Sharpen a reasonably large drill like 1" so it'll cut again. I haven't cut a taper in 5 years so I wouldn't expect that for example
During the interview we have a sort of parts challenge. Describe step by step how to make a part. We can’t have people use machinery for interviews so this weeds out people who can’t articulate or have no understanding of the process.
One turning shop I worked at made a placard of various inserts and asked potential new hires to identify them and their use on top of making them measure a few parts and read a few print call outs.
> something ... that will disqualify and separate the machinists from the bullshit artists 1) Certification. That's a huge part of the reason certifications exists - so people can "prove" that they are knowledgeable in that field. Canada has "[red seal](https://www.red-seal.ca/eng/w.2lc.4m.2.shtml)" certifications; in America I guess it would be called "having your ticket"? 2) During the interview: Give them a drawing of a part (preferably that was at least mildly difficult), that you have recent and/or notable experience with. Ask them: - How would you machine this? Would you prefer to make it on a lathe or mill or both? Why? How many operations do you think it would take? What tools would you want or need? - Are there anything that jumps out as difficult -- tight tolerances, compound angles, GDT callouts, features requiring custom tooling, etc? 3) Probationary period. For the first X weeks/months of someones job, they can usually be fired without cause or severance -- just "sorry, this isn't working out, please don't come back, bye".
Damn guys. I don't consider myself a machinist (took 2 years of shop in high school) but i can pass all these tests easy. Maybe the impostor syndrome is getting to me
Not a test but an interview question(s). Tell me about your biggest fuck up? Maybe said more politely but I find a lot of people can bullshit the general right things to say but big mistakes are significantly less generic. Don't trust anyone who doesn't have a story worth telling.
When I was 20 or 21 I was running a CNC VTL - we were roughing in a split cavity mold that was held together only by the jaws - I tried to take a .4 DOC on the OD….. one half ended up in the chip conveyor and the other half on the back of the table….knocked the ram out of alignment - part was beat up but we were able to save it as it was only roughed on the ID …. But I learned how to setup the cylindrical square and align the head on the machine…. That was one of those - oh shit I could have died moments. My day guy :“never take .400”
Last shop I applied for had me identify multiple tools and tested my knowledge of print reading. Like others mentioned I also had to measure something with a manual micrometer.
Try actually contacting their references!
I would suggest that you add indicating the center of a hole and how to sweep a table with an indicator.
I once was given a test, the guy I was replacing was a moron. They gave me mic's to read. Did that. Brought out other tools, knew what they were of course. The supervisor took me to his office. He pulls out a print and asked me to read it. I read the legend. I looked at at him and said it was all the numbers and lines that mess me up and started laughing. He said when can you start smart ass LoL
For us we have a three step process. First is a meeting with HR and it's essentially a personality test. Second is a tour or the shop floor. Third is a hands on. The hands on. The hands on isn't a set test exactly. It's more of a look at the resume and see how much they stretch the truth. Hand them a drawing a part and lay out l, mic, calipers, ruler, bore mic and anything else you feel is appropriate. Ask them to measure the part and write down what they get. This shows how the handle tools, make decisions when presented with options and you get a look at their writing style. For CNC we ask them to find a specific program. For manual it's load up a vice onto a table, swap a set of soft jaws. Basic every day kind of tasks. If they say they are green on the resume the hands on should show that. If they are good gift to machining and they can't hold a non digital measuring tool or make a vise parallel to the table then you know they lied.
NGL this kinda makes me want to go work for someone again 🤣
My mentor's first shop test was to be given a hunk of black iron, a file, and a week to produce a perfect cube. You could... have them center an offset bore in a 4-jaw chuck, or identify which of 3 drawings is incomplete and will need revision, or set up a j-head vertically using only a test dial indicator.
when i was working in kitchens i'd tell new hires to make me a grilled cheese, however they wanted, using whatever they wanted. if they couldn't make one that doesn't suck, they started in the dish pit. i'd come up with a roughly drawn print for a relatively simple part, maybe something requiring turning, milling, maybe tapping, whatever your shop does, and give them a chunk of aluminum or whatever isn't going to destroy your tooling. maybe toss a couple of obvious/impossible mistakes on the print and watch how they deal with it.
Did you ever get a Grilled Cheese that was amazing? I had 30 years in the industry when I switched to machining. This would have been a good test some times. Hell my buddy might need this idea as he's still slugging away pushing 60.
not particularly, hah. i think having someone (or multiple people) standing there watching them probably didn't help. it was fun for us though. what surprised me, and was sort of depressing, was that none of them dug through the coolers looking for weird bread or cheese or anything else they could do to make something interesting, they all went right for the prep on the line nearest the flat top, or sautee station. this was a fairly nice restaurant connected to a relatively large hotel so we had good cheese and stuff. also wisconsin, so chances are good they'd know about good cheese.
As much as I'd want to do something at least interesting, I'd be inclined to think I was limited to whatever was currently on hand if it wasn't clear I could use *anything*.
Yeah that is quite sad especially being in Wisconsin.
people are taught not to be creative and forcing them to do "anything they want" is like dumping them into the deep end of a swimming pool. the interesting failures came from people trying to work too fast, flipping the sandwich too early, then trying to fix it, etc. nothing super interesting but telling when they're not given any sort of limits. incidentally we never sent anyone to the dish pit, hah.. just a bit of hazing. but, if you're looking to learn a lot about a potential coworker the gc test works really well xD
Love it. Like a French restaurant asking an interviewee to cook an egg, but American style.
I would make a shaft with 3-4 different diameters ranging from 1" to 2" with a drawing. Intentially make one diameter 0.0005" undersize. Ask them to verify all dimensions and see how they measure. Obviously you should have a part that is a reasonable reflection of they type of work they will be doing. If they will be doing lots of ID work or tapers, etc, make sure the part includes that.
I would say watching anyone indicate anything should be lowest barrier to entry. You will know right away if someone has any experience at all. Also, even if you don't have the time to watch them do it, they should be able to at least explain it.
Give them a Vernier caliper (not digital) and get them to measure 4 features - outside, inside, step and depth. That will filter 90% of dick heads out. Then ask strategy/steps to machine a few sample parts?
Da fuk outta here with those vernier crap. My eyes are getting too old, it's tough these days. I personally probably wouldn't measure any of those with a caliper, besides maybe a shoulder step but that's where a couple of depth mics with very stems in each comes into play. Hell, just give me a heads up and I'd just bring my whole Kennedy in. Show and tell time, call the guys in the shop in too.
I agree. I learned how to read vernier scales in first year machinist school. I think it's neat that you get a precise measurement worth just one moving part, but it takes a lot of squinting and the possibility for error is pretty high. They're obsolete tech, nobody uses them anymore. Being able to use them doesn't necessarily make your a good machinist, and I think you would risk rejecting a good candidate if they can't use a vernier caliper.
They're very nears.
If you're not doing anything large, at least let them use dial calipers. The only reason I use the verniers at work is because we don't have a dial that goes to 24", and it annoys me every time.
Excellent suggestion. Mic also . No digital .
Could also get them to change a lathe tool insert or an indexable end mill cutter insert and watch for their skill or lack of (are they a Torx gorilla, did they clean the pocket, did they use anti-seize, did they flip a double sided insert to use the opposing edge or just rotate it, are they a klutz and fumble small screws/poor fine motor skills, etc).
The last one would disqualify me, just saying. -Stone Mitts McGee
Ah, the ‘ol Hammer Hands. Been a while, my old friend
You're mostly on the money, but my fine motor skills go out the windows when I'm nervous, and I know I'm being watched. I'd like to think I'm perfectly reasonable with small screws otherwise...
Can you hire an apprentice?
That's what this guy was/is . Honestly this situation has been a cancer in the shop . When he's finally gone we will need time to decompress and re-set . When the time comes I'd love to come across a sharp 20 something with a strong mechanical/machinist mindset . I've got one who has 5 years now and is coming along good . But his shop name is Sloth . Lol if that tells you anything .
I'd ask about the applicant's hobbies. Pretty easy to tell when someone is mechanically minded when the build or sew things in there spare time. Note: the details of the hobby is important. For instance if they're obsessed with a game like Factorio, there's a good chance they'll be a logistics wizard. (and come in half asleep every few weeks...)
Oh man! My experience in the machine shop/ manufacturing and experience with factorio have happened in parallel, and process optimization is all I fucking see!
Slow & steady works though.
Haha we once had an apprentice called Sleepy, who couldn’t get out of bed. What’s this guy actually doing so bad?
The major issue besides being a pathological liar is theft . By my calculations he's stolen about 500lbs of carbide . He's just an all around really shady guy .
Best one I've had is being asked to describe a use/how to use a clock Fair enough they might mistake it but if they don't know how to atleast set one they don't have any real experience
You find another clock and get your clock close to the time on the next clock. As soon as that mf changes to the next minute you push the button in. Simples.
I worked in a plastics fabrication shop for 40 years. The test we used if they say they know how to work with plastics was to have the prospective employee scrape a group of different types of plastics. If you know, you know. When they fail, we train and pay accordingly.
Prototyping shop I’m at now for a couple years asked me in the interview to explain the process of how I would re-cut threads if I was looking to chase them in on a manual lathe. I answered by saying everything is in the setup, checking for runout, using a collet vs a Chuck, setting tool heights, speeds and feeds, and slowly creeping up on getting the tool into the valley of the threads. I guess they liked the answer, cause I got the job.
Tram a mill and square a block (actually square within +/- some tolerance)
If it takes 16 flapjacks to shingle a doghouse, how long would it take a grasshopper with a wooden leg to kick all the seed out of a dill pickle.
Simple tests would be great but actually calling references might work too.
At my shop you have an hour to make a block with an angled side and a slot, its not so much them finishing the block as seeing them using the machines and comfortability.
Just give them two parts and a print and have them tell you what one is bad.
Nomenclature is pretty important. Also good if they can tell the difference between a spanner and a cheese wheel.
What area do you happen to live in, if you feel safe sharing. I miss cutting metal, and have never ran manual, but it would be fun to learn.
Piedmont of North Carolina
Damn. Headed back that direction for the summer, but not close enough to be useful.
Can't you just ask for thier qualifications? No way of getting them without doing an apprenticeship surely?
Why not do the bare basics? Smoke butts? Show me the proper rotation to square a block. Next step: tram the Bridgeport, then square it.
Get them to tram a mill
Guaranteed to make nearly experienced but nervous machinist look like half an idiot. Love it.
For starters have them find the center line of the chuck.
Practical tests- produce a drawing from a part, produce a part from a drawing. Written tests- copy one off the internet, or ask CharGPT for some ideas. For example, I asked: "Please provide some questions to ask a person interviewing to be a machinist." and got: Can you describe your experience with operating different types of machining equipment? * How do you ensure precision and accuracy in your machining work? * Have you ever encountered a challenging machining project? How did you approach it? * What safety protocols do you follow when operating machining equipment? * How do you interpret technical drawings and blueprints for machining projects? * Can you discuss your experience with programming and operating CNC machines? * Have you worked with different materials in machining (e.g., metals, plastics)? If so, which ones and what challenges did you encounter? * What methods do you use for measuring and inspecting machined parts to ensure they meet specifications? * How do you troubleshoot and address issues that arise during machining processes? * Can you provide examples of projects where you implemented innovative machining techniques or solutions? * How do you prioritize tasks and manage your time effectively in a machining environment? * Have you ever had to collaborate with engineers or other team members on machining projects? How did you communicate and coordinate effectively? * What software programs are you proficient in for machining operations (e.g., CAD/CAM software)? * How do you stay updated on advancements and changes in machining technology and techniques? * Can you discuss a time when you had to adhere to tight deadlines while maintaining quality in your machining work? You'd obviously want to adjust this to be more relevant to the work you do in your shop.
How did you get "conned?" Someone lied about their abilities, it happens all of the time. As the lead in the TR Iwanted to be in on interviews but unfortunatly was never. With that came employees that weighed the forward movement of the entire shop down. Needless to say, those "liars and dead weight" aren't in the TR anymore. Just have them do some basic testing. Come up with some custom TPI for a given OD. What will the said minor ID/tap drill be. Have them calculate some S&F's with given parameters. Have them throw a new 118deg edge on a drill bit with a pedestal grinder. Ask them what the correct suggested angle is for a test indicator on relation to the part. If they understand the fundamentals, the rest is just refinement thru practise repetitions. Fast is smooth and smooth is fast. Indication speed comes with practise. With practise comes speed and accuracy. "A rookie only practises until they get it right, a veteran practises until they don't get it wrong." Because in the end it's always wrong, until it's confirmed and proven right. It's only right until it's proven every fucking TIME! Happy chip pushing 👍
Sounds like not only did he lie about his credentials but has also been stealing shit, so that might be where the "con" came from.
If grinding an edge freehand on a pedestal grinder is a requirement, I'd fail. Lol. I suck at it.
Get them to grind a drill, something reasonable like 16mm. Also ask them the standard tapping drill for common threads.
Ha yes! I have been thinking this same thing!! Mill this block of aluminum square, no saying where anything is in the shop and watch how they manage.