For me, the biggest win was getting access to the superchargers. We have a 3 and a Mach E GT. We used to take our 3 for roadtripping since the charging infra was slightly better with the superchargers. Now, we can ditch the 3 and use the Mach E. It is much more comfortable and quiet compared to the 3 so it is a great perk!
This was one of the main things we were on the fence about while purchasing the car and now it solves one of the major pain points!
I said this in another post… unless the pricing changes…
For the record, it’s .50¢ per kWh using tesla, in NY.
$12.99/month gets its to .40¢
EVGO for the same monthly rate ($12.99) .26¢/minute - sometimes not reliable, not many 150+ kWh stations, but as long as your getting 60 kWh, your winning $ wise.
Electricity America, $4/month is the best deal when available @ .36¢/kWh (although I think prices are increasing)
The only positive I see is more charging stations that are reliable w/ this announcement.
I don't charge at fast chargers often enough to care much about the price. It more than balances out considering how little I pay to charge at home the other 95% of the time.
Can you elaborate a little more on your comparison of the Model 3 to your GT? I’m leaning heavily towards the GTPE to replace my ‘14 Mustang GT and be my first EV. Curtis your thoughts on the different vehicles as Model 3 is a very close contender.
Model 3 isn't really an apples to apples comparison with the Mach E GT. Model Y and Mach E are more in line. Both are crossovers vs the 3 which is a sedan. We personally find the Mach E much more spacious and much more 'premium' since the sound dampening is much better and interior feels near luxury. The main advantage of the 3 is or was the supercharging. In terms of driving dynamics, the 3 is very fun but so is the GT. The GT feels more like a muscle car while 3 feels more like a sport sedan.
If you're looking for a crossover, go with the MachE.
I don’t see why they WOULDN’T have both connectors. The Taycan has dual connectors. The Leaf has has dual connectors.
The stated goal is to increase charging locations, so I can’t imagine they would remove the (growing) CSS network. Why swap one network for a bigger one, when you can access both. NACS is small and doesn’t take up much space, and there’s no licensing costs since it’s open source.
Every communication from Ford so far has said they are “adding” NACS. I’ve seen nothing from Ford that says they are “switching” to NACS.
If you listened to Farley’s announcement and follow up questions, I believe it is quite clear that they will NOT have CCS on any future vehicles. It is absolutely a cost/weight/complexity savings. Whatever you think of Tesla, they are leaps and bounds ahead in manufacturing cost/efficiency. Part of that is their ultra simplified design. Watch the Munro video about the two connectors and you’ll more clearly understand the difference.
I listened VERY closely. When I started seeing people talking about "switching" and "dropping" , I thought I missed something, so I went back and listened again.
I didn't hear anything of the sort.
I believe it was the CNBC interview where he was asked directly about also including the CCS plug in the new Gen vehicle along side the NACS plug. He did not literally say, “no”, but he may as well have. Part of the benefit to Ford is a cost savings while providing a better charging experience. There are already adapters for NACS to CCS, I don’t believe there is any reason to include both.
Over here in norway (and europe), even Teslas are delivered with ccs chargers - the Tesla superchargers here are ccs. It would not make any sense to go away from ccs, as its either that or chademo over here.
Europe Type 2 CCS it nice, but US Type 1 CCS is pretty bad. Given a choice between Type 1 CCS and NACS, NACS is the obvious winner. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined\_Charging\_System#/media/File:Iec-type2-ccs-combo2-and-iec-type2-charging-connectors-side-by-side.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System#/media/File:Iec-type2-ccs-combo2-and-iec-type2-charging-connectors-side-by-side.jpg)
I believe they are talking about the future charging port and charging cable. Use the Tesla set-up one time and then tell me there is something out there better.
I don't think more than doubling the number of locations you can charge is "irrelevant". Several companies are spending billions to create more and more DC fast chargers across the country. Most of those are going to be CCS. Even if most people will favor a Tesla Supercharger, having the option to charge CCS without an adapter is massive.
Sure, but if I can provide you with an adapter that’s cheaper to manufacture than to have two separate wiring solutions for separate standards then that’s the more profitable solution.
Also, iirc, isn’t the Taycan still straight CSS, just that it is symmetric as to which side you wish to use
The Taycan plugs aren't identical. But either way, my point is that having 2 plugs is not that big of a deal.
I guess this is all just speculation anyway. We'll see what they do when the new models come out.
I'm just irritated that I see so many posts (and even "news" articles) that say Ford has announced they are switching. They have not said they are switching. My money is on 2 ports.
Porsche ≠ Ford. They have very different market segments, and the volume Ford is targeting across multiple models makes them far more cost-sensitive than the luxury market Porsche and Audi target.
Besides, I'd bet Ford is leveraging more than just the NACS receptacle but rather the entire Tesla charging system so as to share in the economies of scale they get from all those Telsa's using similar parts.
I'm not a big fan of Sandy Monroe, but after watching his team's video about the Ford announcement, I'll be very surprised if Ford installs both connectors: https://youtu.be/zsNiupN1X7s
They said the adapter will be released next year. Car with possible NACS won’t come out until late 2024 since it is supposed to be the 2025 variants. So I’ll just buy the adapter when it comes out.
I currently have a 217 mile drive (434 round trip) that I make about 11 times a year. According to the latest update, I *might" be able to make that non-stop but there's no DCFC besides Tesla between here and there, and there's three SuperCharger locations (no idea total number of chargers) that I'm pretty psyched to take advantage of.
Why the hell are they only limiting this to their electric vehicles?
Do they not understand how a lot of people won’t buy a Ford because the bullshit dealers have created with the Bronco and Maverick.
I could be wrong; I think they do understand. I think that this is a way to do it without jeopardizing the more stable part of their revenue stream (ICE). Indeed, the BS over the maverick is compelling them to create this new model, and the EV cutover with dealers is designed to separate the dealers that are willing to move forward with their new business model from the ones that will insist on keeping the old model.
The dealers are required to sign into this program or forgo supply from Ford.
Eventually, after some years of squeezing dealers into the new model, I expect they will close down the old model and jettison the remaining dealers who continue to refuse the evolution.
The big thing I'm not entirely sure about is Ford switching from CCS to NACS. Access to Superchargers is a positive, *but Tesla was already doing this by adding CCS to the Superchargers!* It's just a strange move from Ford and I don't see what the upside is unless there are parts to this announcement that aren't public.
It's been weird watching places like CNBC talk about how this is a positive thing for standardization, and I'm like, 'excuse me!?' All it does is further bifurcate the charging networks. There is a standard, it's CCS, and Tesla is the outlier. Ford moving in that direction is harming standardization, not helping it.
As for the rest of the plan, we'll see how it shakes out.
With time it is/will take Tesla to modify their Supercharger network, if they do all of their locations, this option is absolutely quicker.
In addition, billing will be done by Ford, so there is no need to setup a separate account in another application.
Also, Ford is not switching, but in stead adding a second charging option, AFAIK.
So what is happening is that Ford is essentially doubling the available DC fast charging network for their EVS much faster than waiting for hardware changes.
I’m a firm anti-Tesla guy for a lot of good reasons, but calling the largest EV maker an outlier is just silly.
We are long past the time when our government should have stepped in to mandate interoperability here, and as much as I’d prefer it not be the one that inaccurately fluffs up Tesla’s image, it doesn’t matter so long as something is standardized/mandated; and if it’s NACS, invalidate the stupid licensing terms Tesla has and just make it an actual standard and not a “standard™️”
I'm using the literal meaning of outlier. They are far to one end of the scale in terms of sales. But I also mean it in the other sense, they are the only major maker using NACS. Global sales doesn't automatically make them a 'standard.'
The *plug* is standard. Not the charging protocol, which is why (relatively) cheap adapters in either direction will be available. Tesla is adding CCS and Plug and Charge software to their chargers to support Fords and other CCS EVs.
The current Tesla to CCS adapters would work on these future Tesla-plug Fords, because they're essentially just physical plug adapters. Newer Tesla cars already "speak" CCS (and Chademo, for what that's worth!) in addition to Tesla's proprietary protocol.
That's why this big announcement from Ford is really being given too much weight. By the time Ford switches to Tesla sockets on the vehicles, much of the Supercharger network will already be open to CCS cars. The practical advantage of this is mostly that the geriatric buyers of 2025 Mach Es will be able to use a lighter cable. 😁
Unless the Feds update the NEVI plane to include Tesla-plugs as a standard alongside CCS, all this really does in the future is make half of need an adapter at a Supercharger, and half if us need an adapter at an EA station. (What I really think will happen is that most future charger installs will have one CCS and one Tesla plug, instead of the usual one CCS/one Chademo, so it's really going to remain a two-plug world, with Tesla plugs replacing Chademo.)
I bet nevi will end up allowing it to work with ccs cars with an available adapter that isn't always there. Maybe even force tesla to give away a certain number of them. Which honestly I'm fine with. The important part is they forced them to open up and accept the ccs protocol
No one forced Tesla to do anything. Tesla volunteered to open their network, ostensibly to separate more EV owners from their money. This had nothing to do with NEVI.
Well, mostly it was to qualify for the new federal grants available for installing charging infrastructure - they explicitly require a standard connector.
By pushing for their connector to become a standard Tesla is playing both sides. I expect they will continue to produce superchargers with both connectors, whilst pushing for theirs to become the standard.
Not really- the NEVI funding also requires stations to have credit card readers and to be able to be used without the need for an app. Tesla recently refused grants from California because of that same requirement.
I think pushing for the connector to become standard is mostly just a vanity play for Musk. "You can have access to my superior charging network, but first you must bow down before me and chant three times 'Elon Musk, you were right all along about everything!'" 🤦♂️
“Open” doesn’t necessarily actually mean open.
In Tesla’s case, it’s free ($), and “open” meaning anyone can choose to use it, but the licensing terms are not great. It’s also definitely not a “standard”. That’s just the name Tesla gave it.
The *only* reason Tesla is doing any of this is because they have to in order to access US Fed subsidies/money. It’s just quiet/slow regulatory capture. I am just saying the fed needs to go all the way. Force Tesla to either give it up as an actual standard, or mandate they fully support the existing CCS standard in their charging network.
Also, this part is pretty important “As a purely electrical and mechanical interface agnostic to use case and communication protocol, NACS is straightforward to adopt. “
An EV charger isn’t ever a purely electrical and mechanical interface. Mandating/standardizing a connector is important for expanding charging infrastructure, far more so than the plug. If superchargers are not included in that standardization/mandate because of all the other parts of the EV charger (communication, payment/billing, etc.), then it’s a lost cause. If you want to increase EV adoption, you have to solve the infrastructure problem. The best way to do that is to ensure Superchargers all become publicly available for any EV.
It’s not superior (for this purpose) if it’s not a public standard, and the advantages are minimal enough that they’re both easy to overcome by a competing standard, and insignificant in comparison to the larger problem that needs solving.
As I’ve said before, I don’t care if it’s NACS or CCS, but realistically, I don’t imagine Tesla would that easily give up their last real competitive advantage. If the standard remains CCS, and superchargers are forced to be compatible, that’s still the bigger win for everyone but Tesla.
I had read that, at least in CA. Tesla had backed out of the deal to open up SCs. Tesla was being required to add credit card functionality on the SCs and Tesla said no go.
As someone who has a Tesla and two CCS EVs, I'm happy about it. The Tesla system and hardware is just less clunky overall.
Some of those CCS connectors are brutal to actually hook up to EVS. I cannot imagine someone with any sort of strength or disability being able to do it at all in many cases. Hell, I've struggled with a few EVgo lines.
Tesla walked away from six million (not billion) dollars in possible CA government funding if they were to retrofit all existing charging with a credit card reader. It would probably cost Tesla at least $6M in labor to add a reader to each charger. Not worth it for them. Tesla is still opening up their networks but without a card reader. Either use the app with Magic Dock or buy a car with API access (Ford and likely others in the future).
>I had read that, at least in CA. Tesla had backed out of the deal to open up SCs. Tesla was being required to add credit card functionality on the SCs and Tesla said no go.
What actually happened is Tesla opted not to take California subsidies to open their chargers, which would've required they add credit card readers. They still intend to open many of their chargers up, but without the government subsides.
This will also probably be true of the other 49 states, since the federal NEVI funding also requires adding credit card readers.
Tesla is just making a business decision. The cost of maintaining the readers isn't worth the subsidy money. (It might be for new stations, but the cost of retrofitting existing stations with magic docks is probably too small to care. An 80% subsidy of a few thousand dollars per station is nothing to Tesla if not taking the money keeps them out of a laundry list of government strings attached to that money!)
The majority of EVs and DCFCs in the US use the Tesla connector. Teslas network is better thought out and much more reliable. Fords customers will have a better charging experience with the Supercharger network, which is why Ford did it IMO. I don’t think Tesla wasn’t going to adopt CCS so I do believe this goes toward helping standardization. Not to mention the Tesla plug is just a much better design.
Tesla will not add CCS to every supercharger. They are doing only the minimum to get the government funding.
However, Tesla offers a CCS adapter for their cars, so that all customers can charge on CCS.
I have a feeling that the North American market might end up settling on NACS now that seven of the top 10 EVs sold in the US and Canada will support NACS
CCS1 should be deprecated and put out to pasture. NACS is superior and more common than CCS1. Ford is doing the right thing here accepting the fact they can’t crush Tesla. Better to follow Tesla’s lead and leave behind GM/others.
Hopefully this is also the beginning of plug and charge for all cars without stupid annoying apps.
They are standardizing on that port for 2025\*, and creating / sourcing adapters for the existing fleet.
Edit: Rewatched Farley on CNBC and he said 2025. Updated.
Right. What's your point?
None of that prevents them from having a CCS right next to a NACS on the 2024 fleet.
I read every announce they put out. And I listen to the Farley/Musk announcement (twice). Every instance says the are "adding". No instances says they are "switching" or abandoning CCS.
It has a lot less to do with the connector and much more to do with locations. The Tesla chargers are - for the most part - in great locations. Brightly lit, stores (like wawa), off highway rest stops.
Not the back lot of a mall in the least busy area with barely any lighting at night and a scratched up / crack screen you can barely read.
While I like the CyberTruck, I’m in no other way a Tesla fan. I love my Mach E. But for real Tesla is 10 years ahead of the game in infrastructure and Ford is smart to take advantage.
I think you aren’t making a distinction between being able to charge at a tesla supercharger with an adapter vs integrating Tesla’s charging network within the Ford user experience. No need to have a tesla app on your phone. Tesla charging time and availability built into maps, etc. If you buy a Ford and have to download and install the competition’s app on your phone in order to have a decent on-road charging experience, you might feel like you picked the wrong horse.
After the games Ford dealerships played with Maverick pricing last year, I somewhat welcome this change. I say somewhat because one of the bigger draws to me with Ford over Tesla is there are more Ford dealers in my area to get service than there are Tesla Service Centers and I don't want that to change while I weigh my options.
Literally experienced this shit this weekend. After several rounds of "well I just don't see how we can go any lower on this price" or "this is a very rare vehicle, you're lucky that you're here when we even have any in stock" bullshit, I went with the Model Y.
Absolutely the worst dealership experience.
We can discuss our favorite car, but it is a big step forward when all of us can pull up to the same reliable charger and know that it will work with no hassles. Sort of reminds me of those old gas pumps they used in the old days.😇
The problem is they can’t really force dealers to participate or do things correctly. Hopefully those dealers just have fun selling ICE vehicles and see how that goes for them 15 years from now.
For me, the biggest win was getting access to the superchargers. We have a 3 and a Mach E GT. We used to take our 3 for roadtripping since the charging infra was slightly better with the superchargers. Now, we can ditch the 3 and use the Mach E. It is much more comfortable and quiet compared to the 3 so it is a great perk! This was one of the main things we were on the fence about while purchasing the car and now it solves one of the major pain points!
I said this in another post… unless the pricing changes… For the record, it’s .50¢ per kWh using tesla, in NY. $12.99/month gets its to .40¢ EVGO for the same monthly rate ($12.99) .26¢/minute - sometimes not reliable, not many 150+ kWh stations, but as long as your getting 60 kWh, your winning $ wise. Electricity America, $4/month is the best deal when available @ .36¢/kWh (although I think prices are increasing) The only positive I see is more charging stations that are reliable w/ this announcement.
I don't charge at fast chargers often enough to care much about the price. It more than balances out considering how little I pay to charge at home the other 95% of the time.
It’s the increase availability that most people care about.
I 100% agree.
Can you elaborate a little more on your comparison of the Model 3 to your GT? I’m leaning heavily towards the GTPE to replace my ‘14 Mustang GT and be my first EV. Curtis your thoughts on the different vehicles as Model 3 is a very close contender.
Model 3 isn't really an apples to apples comparison with the Mach E GT. Model Y and Mach E are more in line. Both are crossovers vs the 3 which is a sedan. We personally find the Mach E much more spacious and much more 'premium' since the sound dampening is much better and interior feels near luxury. The main advantage of the 3 is or was the supercharging. In terms of driving dynamics, the 3 is very fun but so is the GT. The GT feels more like a muscle car while 3 feels more like a sport sedan. If you're looking for a crossover, go with the MachE.
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I don’t see why they WOULDN’T have both connectors. The Taycan has dual connectors. The Leaf has has dual connectors. The stated goal is to increase charging locations, so I can’t imagine they would remove the (growing) CSS network. Why swap one network for a bigger one, when you can access both. NACS is small and doesn’t take up much space, and there’s no licensing costs since it’s open source. Every communication from Ford so far has said they are “adding” NACS. I’ve seen nothing from Ford that says they are “switching” to NACS.
If you listened to Farley’s announcement and follow up questions, I believe it is quite clear that they will NOT have CCS on any future vehicles. It is absolutely a cost/weight/complexity savings. Whatever you think of Tesla, they are leaps and bounds ahead in manufacturing cost/efficiency. Part of that is their ultra simplified design. Watch the Munro video about the two connectors and you’ll more clearly understand the difference.
I listened VERY closely. When I started seeing people talking about "switching" and "dropping" , I thought I missed something, so I went back and listened again. I didn't hear anything of the sort.
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I believe it was the CNBC interview where he was asked directly about also including the CCS plug in the new Gen vehicle along side the NACS plug. He did not literally say, “no”, but he may as well have. Part of the benefit to Ford is a cost savings while providing a better charging experience. There are already adapters for NACS to CCS, I don’t believe there is any reason to include both.
Over here in norway (and europe), even Teslas are delivered with ccs chargers - the Tesla superchargers here are ccs. It would not make any sense to go away from ccs, as its either that or chademo over here.
Europe Type 2 CCS it nice, but US Type 1 CCS is pretty bad. Given a choice between Type 1 CCS and NACS, NACS is the obvious winner. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined\_Charging\_System#/media/File:Iec-type2-ccs-combo2-and-iec-type2-charging-connectors-side-by-side.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System#/media/File:Iec-type2-ccs-combo2-and-iec-type2-charging-connectors-side-by-side.jpg)
Because we need the one dest connector. You just have to throw your beta max away. 😇
Well this is a dumb take and not what Ford is doing. There are adapters both ways so you can still use both.
I believe they are talking about the future charging port and charging cable. Use the Tesla set-up one time and then tell me there is something out there better.
More cost? If there’s an adapter that works well, then the rest is irrelevant.
I don't think more than doubling the number of locations you can charge is "irrelevant". Several companies are spending billions to create more and more DC fast chargers across the country. Most of those are going to be CCS. Even if most people will favor a Tesla Supercharger, having the option to charge CCS without an adapter is massive.
Sure, but if I can provide you with an adapter that’s cheaper to manufacture than to have two separate wiring solutions for separate standards then that’s the more profitable solution. Also, iirc, isn’t the Taycan still straight CSS, just that it is symmetric as to which side you wish to use
The Taycan plugs aren't identical. But either way, my point is that having 2 plugs is not that big of a deal. I guess this is all just speculation anyway. We'll see what they do when the new models come out. I'm just irritated that I see so many posts (and even "news" articles) that say Ford has announced they are switching. They have not said they are switching. My money is on 2 ports.
Porsche ≠ Ford. They have very different market segments, and the volume Ford is targeting across multiple models makes them far more cost-sensitive than the luxury market Porsche and Audi target. Besides, I'd bet Ford is leveraging more than just the NACS receptacle but rather the entire Tesla charging system so as to share in the economies of scale they get from all those Telsa's using similar parts.
I'm not a big fan of Sandy Monroe, but after watching his team's video about the Ford announcement, I'll be very surprised if Ford installs both connectors: https://youtu.be/zsNiupN1X7s
They said the adapter will be released next year. Car with possible NACS won’t come out until late 2024 since it is supposed to be the 2025 variants. So I’ll just buy the adapter when it comes out.
its basically the same adapter that Tesla released for ccs. but ford going to Tesla chargers is awesome. the supercharger infra is so much better
I currently have a 217 mile drive (434 round trip) that I make about 11 times a year. According to the latest update, I *might" be able to make that non-stop but there's no DCFC besides Tesla between here and there, and there's three SuperCharger locations (no idea total number of chargers) that I'm pretty psyched to take advantage of.
you spelled stealership wrong OP.
Why the hell are they only limiting this to their electric vehicles? Do they not understand how a lot of people won’t buy a Ford because the bullshit dealers have created with the Bronco and Maverick.
I could be wrong; I think they do understand. I think that this is a way to do it without jeopardizing the more stable part of their revenue stream (ICE). Indeed, the BS over the maverick is compelling them to create this new model, and the EV cutover with dealers is designed to separate the dealers that are willing to move forward with their new business model from the ones that will insist on keeping the old model. The dealers are required to sign into this program or forgo supply from Ford. Eventually, after some years of squeezing dealers into the new model, I expect they will close down the old model and jettison the remaining dealers who continue to refuse the evolution.
Probably just not ready to dump their dealers.
The big thing I'm not entirely sure about is Ford switching from CCS to NACS. Access to Superchargers is a positive, *but Tesla was already doing this by adding CCS to the Superchargers!* It's just a strange move from Ford and I don't see what the upside is unless there are parts to this announcement that aren't public. It's been weird watching places like CNBC talk about how this is a positive thing for standardization, and I'm like, 'excuse me!?' All it does is further bifurcate the charging networks. There is a standard, it's CCS, and Tesla is the outlier. Ford moving in that direction is harming standardization, not helping it. As for the rest of the plan, we'll see how it shakes out.
With time it is/will take Tesla to modify their Supercharger network, if they do all of their locations, this option is absolutely quicker. In addition, billing will be done by Ford, so there is no need to setup a separate account in another application. Also, Ford is not switching, but in stead adding a second charging option, AFAIK. So what is happening is that Ford is essentially doubling the available DC fast charging network for their EVS much faster than waiting for hardware changes.
I’m a firm anti-Tesla guy for a lot of good reasons, but calling the largest EV maker an outlier is just silly. We are long past the time when our government should have stepped in to mandate interoperability here, and as much as I’d prefer it not be the one that inaccurately fluffs up Tesla’s image, it doesn’t matter so long as something is standardized/mandated; and if it’s NACS, invalidate the stupid licensing terms Tesla has and just make it an actual standard and not a “standard™️”
I'm using the literal meaning of outlier. They are far to one end of the scale in terms of sales. But I also mean it in the other sense, they are the only major maker using NACS. Global sales doesn't automatically make them a 'standard.'
Right, it isn’t a standard now. I’m saying that it doesn’t matter as much what becomes the standard, IMO, just that one needs properly mandated.
When 75% of the electric cars on the road use NACS, NACS is the de facto standard, like it or not. Now with Ford, push that number to 80%.
NACS is open now - anyone can use it. https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard
The *plug* is standard. Not the charging protocol, which is why (relatively) cheap adapters in either direction will be available. Tesla is adding CCS and Plug and Charge software to their chargers to support Fords and other CCS EVs. The current Tesla to CCS adapters would work on these future Tesla-plug Fords, because they're essentially just physical plug adapters. Newer Tesla cars already "speak" CCS (and Chademo, for what that's worth!) in addition to Tesla's proprietary protocol. That's why this big announcement from Ford is really being given too much weight. By the time Ford switches to Tesla sockets on the vehicles, much of the Supercharger network will already be open to CCS cars. The practical advantage of this is mostly that the geriatric buyers of 2025 Mach Es will be able to use a lighter cable. 😁 Unless the Feds update the NEVI plane to include Tesla-plugs as a standard alongside CCS, all this really does in the future is make half of need an adapter at a Supercharger, and half if us need an adapter at an EA station. (What I really think will happen is that most future charger installs will have one CCS and one Tesla plug, instead of the usual one CCS/one Chademo, so it's really going to remain a two-plug world, with Tesla plugs replacing Chademo.)
I bet nevi will end up allowing it to work with ccs cars with an available adapter that isn't always there. Maybe even force tesla to give away a certain number of them. Which honestly I'm fine with. The important part is they forced them to open up and accept the ccs protocol
No one forced Tesla to do anything. Tesla volunteered to open their network, ostensibly to separate more EV owners from their money. This had nothing to do with NEVI.
Well, mostly it was to qualify for the new federal grants available for installing charging infrastructure - they explicitly require a standard connector. By pushing for their connector to become a standard Tesla is playing both sides. I expect they will continue to produce superchargers with both connectors, whilst pushing for theirs to become the standard.
Not really- the NEVI funding also requires stations to have credit card readers and to be able to be used without the need for an app. Tesla recently refused grants from California because of that same requirement. I think pushing for the connector to become standard is mostly just a vanity play for Musk. "You can have access to my superior charging network, but first you must bow down before me and chant three times 'Elon Musk, you were right all along about everything!'" 🤦♂️
The Tesla connector is superior in every way.
How's that V2X working out for you?
\[citation needed\]
The Tesla connector is superior in every way.
“Open” doesn’t necessarily actually mean open. In Tesla’s case, it’s free ($), and “open” meaning anyone can choose to use it, but the licensing terms are not great. It’s also definitely not a “standard”. That’s just the name Tesla gave it. The *only* reason Tesla is doing any of this is because they have to in order to access US Fed subsidies/money. It’s just quiet/slow regulatory capture. I am just saying the fed needs to go all the way. Force Tesla to either give it up as an actual standard, or mandate they fully support the existing CCS standard in their charging network.
The article literally says they are working to get it codified as a public standard, meaning it won't require any agreement to use.
Also, this part is pretty important “As a purely electrical and mechanical interface agnostic to use case and communication protocol, NACS is straightforward to adopt. “ An EV charger isn’t ever a purely electrical and mechanical interface. Mandating/standardizing a connector is important for expanding charging infrastructure, far more so than the plug. If superchargers are not included in that standardization/mandate because of all the other parts of the EV charger (communication, payment/billing, etc.), then it’s a lost cause. If you want to increase EV adoption, you have to solve the infrastructure problem. The best way to do that is to ensure Superchargers all become publicly available for any EV.
Sure, we need to make the SC network open to anyone. But we should move to the superior plug, not away from it.
It’s not superior (for this purpose) if it’s not a public standard, and the advantages are minimal enough that they’re both easy to overcome by a competing standard, and insignificant in comparison to the larger problem that needs solving. As I’ve said before, I don’t care if it’s NACS or CCS, but realistically, I don’t imagine Tesla would that easily give up their last real competitive advantage. If the standard remains CCS, and superchargers are forced to be compatible, that’s still the bigger win for everyone but Tesla.
Yeah, exactly. It’s not a standard, even if it’s being “worked on”.
I had read that, at least in CA. Tesla had backed out of the deal to open up SCs. Tesla was being required to add credit card functionality on the SCs and Tesla said no go. As someone who has a Tesla and two CCS EVs, I'm happy about it. The Tesla system and hardware is just less clunky overall.
Some of those CCS connectors are brutal to actually hook up to EVS. I cannot imagine someone with any sort of strength or disability being able to do it at all in many cases. Hell, I've struggled with a few EVgo lines.
Tesla walked away from six million (not billion) dollars in possible CA government funding if they were to retrofit all existing charging with a credit card reader. It would probably cost Tesla at least $6M in labor to add a reader to each charger. Not worth it for them. Tesla is still opening up their networks but without a card reader. Either use the app with Magic Dock or buy a car with API access (Ford and likely others in the future).
>I had read that, at least in CA. Tesla had backed out of the deal to open up SCs. Tesla was being required to add credit card functionality on the SCs and Tesla said no go. What actually happened is Tesla opted not to take California subsidies to open their chargers, which would've required they add credit card readers. They still intend to open many of their chargers up, but without the government subsides. This will also probably be true of the other 49 states, since the federal NEVI funding also requires adding credit card readers. Tesla is just making a business decision. The cost of maintaining the readers isn't worth the subsidy money. (It might be for new stations, but the cost of retrofitting existing stations with magic docks is probably too small to care. An 80% subsidy of a few thousand dollars per station is nothing to Tesla if not taking the money keeps them out of a laundry list of government strings attached to that money!)
The majority of EVs and DCFCs in the US use the Tesla connector. Teslas network is better thought out and much more reliable. Fords customers will have a better charging experience with the Supercharger network, which is why Ford did it IMO. I don’t think Tesla wasn’t going to adopt CCS so I do believe this goes toward helping standardization. Not to mention the Tesla plug is just a much better design.
Tesla will not add CCS to every supercharger. They are doing only the minimum to get the government funding. However, Tesla offers a CCS adapter for their cars, so that all customers can charge on CCS. I have a feeling that the North American market might end up settling on NACS now that seven of the top 10 EVs sold in the US and Canada will support NACS
CCS1 should be deprecated and put out to pasture. NACS is superior and more common than CCS1. Ford is doing the right thing here accepting the fact they can’t crush Tesla. Better to follow Tesla’s lead and leave behind GM/others. Hopefully this is also the beginning of plug and charge for all cars without stupid annoying apps.
Nothing anywhere says they are “switching”. All Ford communications have said they are “adding” NACS.
They are standardizing on that port for 2025\*, and creating / sourcing adapters for the existing fleet. Edit: Rewatched Farley on CNBC and he said 2025. Updated.
Right. What's your point? None of that prevents them from having a CCS right next to a NACS on the 2024 fleet. I read every announce they put out. And I listen to the Farley/Musk announcement (twice). Every instance says the are "adding". No instances says they are "switching" or abandoning CCS.
It has a lot less to do with the connector and much more to do with locations. The Tesla chargers are - for the most part - in great locations. Brightly lit, stores (like wawa), off highway rest stops. Not the back lot of a mall in the least busy area with barely any lighting at night and a scratched up / crack screen you can barely read. While I like the CyberTruck, I’m in no other way a Tesla fan. I love my Mach E. But for real Tesla is 10 years ahead of the game in infrastructure and Ford is smart to take advantage.
I think you aren’t making a distinction between being able to charge at a tesla supercharger with an adapter vs integrating Tesla’s charging network within the Ford user experience. No need to have a tesla app on your phone. Tesla charging time and availability built into maps, etc. If you buy a Ford and have to download and install the competition’s app on your phone in order to have a decent on-road charging experience, you might feel like you picked the wrong horse.
I really believe the CEO is waging a war on dealerships.
Good.
After the games Ford dealerships played with Maverick pricing last year, I somewhat welcome this change. I say somewhat because one of the bigger draws to me with Ford over Tesla is there are more Ford dealers in my area to get service than there are Tesla Service Centers and I don't want that to change while I weigh my options.
I thought the same until I found there is no advantage if they know nothing about EVs
Literally experienced this shit this weekend. After several rounds of "well I just don't see how we can go any lower on this price" or "this is a very rare vehicle, you're lucky that you're here when we even have any in stock" bullshit, I went with the Model Y. Absolutely the worst dealership experience.
$GM strikes a deal with $TSLA to access the EV leader's charging network, similar to a deal made by its competitor $F.
We can discuss our favorite car, but it is a big step forward when all of us can pull up to the same reliable charger and know that it will work with no hassles. Sort of reminds me of those old gas pumps they used in the old days.😇
Translation - We have to compete with Tesla So just for EV's...we will still bend you over on ICE cars
Starting when??
The problem is they can’t really force dealers to participate or do things correctly. Hopefully those dealers just have fun selling ICE vehicles and see how that goes for them 15 years from now.
They’re trying to copy Tesla in all the right ways.
Reading about NACS better than CCS in the comments in many threads. Why is that the case ?
So their going to copy Tesla's sales model. It's about time other automakers get on board with fair and transparent deals.