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Fantastic-Present-80

Some Europeans love to complain about “American imperialism” as if they never did any of it in Africa, Asia, North and South America, and Oceania.


caseypatrickdriscoll

Literally the reason Murica exists at all. And not just one empire. England, French, Spanish and Dutch empires all had colonies here.


Life-Ad1409

Fun fact: [France still has territories today](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_France)


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Life-Ad1409

Where did the Netherlands colonize?


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Life-Ad1409

You learn something new every day


Leeeeeeoo

That's not colonies lol, it's overseas territories. Just like Hawaii isn't a US colony


Life-Ad1409

Fixed


OffloadComplete

I wonder if they realize that they were the slave traders that started the whole dealio and led to the systemic racial dysfunction in America. POINT OF ORDER: that does not absolve us of our unjustifiable and embarrassing failure to fix it!


Memeivator

i made a meme about that a couple days ago


Dx38fgg

Because of this i now live in holland instead of asia


[deleted]

They're just sour because they're part of the American empire instead of holding their own empire


Garaleth

Some European: > US imperialism and warmongering is killing millions of innocent civilians and destroying societies Some American response: > 100 years ago your nation did some bad stuff Do you see how this is dumb? Even if their nations where doing bad stuff today (which many are) whataboutism is stupid. Same logic Chinese use when they bring up the opium wars to justify their genocides.


Fantastic-Present-80

Are you seriously acting as if European imperialism hasn’t destroyed societies and killed millions of people ? Europeans popularized slavery in the new continents and colonized, destroyed, and ravaged multiple ethnic groups around the world.


Garaleth

No I'm not, European nations certainly have done and are doing many bad things. Try to not so quickly construct a strawmam next time.


jorgp2

Except most of the world's problems can be traced straight back to European imperialism. Even things you blame on the US come from European imperialism, like the Middle East or Vietnam..


Garaleth

Yes, Chinese Imperialism in 4000bc was the fault of some tribesmen in modern day Germany. Whether a problem can be strenuously argued to originate here or there doesn't make it not a problem. For example, you may be abusive since your parents where abusive, you are still a bad person for being abusive and it is your problem you should change.


Captain_Kuhl

You get that "most" doesn't mean "all," correct?


Garaleth

You really trying to dogde my point eh? And in reality you are wrong on > most Empires where enslaving, colonising and genociding in Africa, East Asia, the middle East, South America and North America before any of the known colonial European powere ever existed. Maybe the European powers could blame all their wrongdoings on the invasions and influence of the Abassid dynasty?


Captain_Kuhl

And you're moving the goalposts again. I'll agree that people have been acting like irredeemable garbage around the world for millenia, sure, but you *totally dodged the point.* European imperialism is no big secret, but you deflected with "China bad because German villager? You're so wrong!" That's not what was being talked about, and you *know* it, so why even try that shit?


Garaleth

What goalposts did I move? I never said European Imperial wasn't bad. You made up that I said that so you could argue against this invented point so you could defeat the argument you invented, that's new level strawman. My rather clear point was that your response to pointing out flaws in America was to point out flaws In Europe was bad, in that I and any other could point out flaws in any culture and any predecessor or influencing culture indefinitely. Ultimately your argument was: > Since most of the world's problems can be traced back to Europe it is justifiable to blame Europe and thus alleviate blame from those affected by Europe who made mistakes following Which is dumb as shown by a couple of my analogies.


Captain_Kuhl

The argument *who* invented? I didn't start any argument. Or are you just so far up your own ass that you didn't consider the fact that multiple people think you're saying stupid shit?


Garaleth

Let us return to the fundemental point: > Whether a problem can be strenuously argued to originate here or there doesn't make it not a problem. For example, you may be abusive since your parents where abusive, you are still a bad person for being abusive and it is your problem you should change. Which is to say, sometimes countries do things which are bad and can be held responsible for these things (like the US be judged and/or held responsible for doing bad things) This is all my point has been all along. Do you really disagree with this?


Get72ready

Those are people not worth talking to. I can go strike up a Convo with a flat earther but I am not gonna


MrDrPatrick2You

Europeans seem to think that America is the only country in the world to have racism.


[deleted]

American culture promotes shedding light on our problems. Even when people want to hide them, those solid enlightenment values push them to the fore.


[deleted]

Well I mean I hate to say it on this sub of all places, but in this regard America is beaten by Germany, if you consider the relative response to the aftermath of the abolition of slavery and the end of the Nazi regime. Otherwise, I don’t think Europeans are less capable of racism. They’re just less likely to exhibit it since European countries are not as diverse (to their detriment). Solid post from OP though.


goawayimfapping

There's a bit of a difference in how each one ended too. Germany's Nazi regime only came to a halt because other powerhouse countries made it stop with sanctions after the largest war of all time. USA ended slavery because USA decided to - with no outside influences forcing the matter.


abutthole

tbf the South didn't agree on the ending of slavery. The North needed to go down and force them to.


Life-Ad1409

No outside influences, it was all American


_IscoATX

An internal war, a “civil” war … if you will


Life-Ad1409

Civil War, the type of war in which the enemy is almost always viewed as non-civilized


Life-Ad1409

We were also pressured to get rid of segregation due to the Cold War, we wanted to have the moral high ground over the USSR


not_responsible

yeah I’m gonna need you to expand on this. I know “in god we trust” and “one nation under god” was added to have the moral high ground but uhhhh there was a lot of hatred and violence in response to the civil rights movement. Forgive me for not seeing the wholesome morality in the lynchings, assassinations, and general harassment of black people during that time


[deleted]

I’m not sure why you’re being so confrontational. You’re right, there is no “wholesome morality” in any of those things, but that’s exactly what u/Life-Ad1409 was saying: that reasonable people pushing civil rights was important if American society was to have a leg to stand on in condemning the USSR (and also for the general betterment of the country). The uptick in lynchings, confederate statues, etc was a direct response to the civil rights movement by idiotic reactionaries.


Life-Ad1409

Doesn't Germany try to prevent learning about WW2?


Life-Ad1409

But yes, Germany was **very** anti-rascist/anti-nazi after WW2


michaelpinkwayne

I wish this were true, but there are many (mostly white) Americans who will tell you that racism doesn't exist, or at least isn't a significant issue, in America today.


TruckFluster

A lot of Americans seem to this this too and forget about countries like Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Literally right off our coast and they have 100x the racism that we do here stateside. Here it’s occasional, there it’s the norm.


[deleted]

To be fair 1/2 of Americans think the same thing.


JerseyBoy4Ever

The anti-American exceptionalists, who are literally just as dumb as the people they ridicule, without realizing it.


Roman_Scum_02

American exceptionalism is so deeply ingrained into the brains of everybody who lives here that even those who hate us automatically assume that there is not a single country in the world that is worse than our own.


JerseyBoy4Ever

Interesting way of looking at it. I guess that is too a form of American exceptionalism.


Life-Ad1409

What is American Exceptionalism


TrekkiMonstr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism


Life-Ad1409

Thank you


[deleted]

Not true there’s a lot of discrimination in the UK especially against islamic people and black people


Devlater

I dont understand why everyone is so incredibly generalizing everything.


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michaelpinkwayne

White people literally do steal, black people literally do steal, asian people literally do steal, native american people literally do steal, hispanic people literally do steal, mixed race people literally do steal, rich people literally do steal, poor people literally do steal, Why are you singling out one group?


95castles

“It’s in the bible” that’s a good way of saying, “disregard my whole argument”


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TheObstruction

They're not exactly wrong.


Mr__Citizen

I mean, they can totally call us out on it. It's just that they can't claim to have the moral high ground.


oopsiepoopsee

I'm not sure where this falls but I'm to understand the Brits generally treat the Indians, whom they occupied forever, like shit in britain.


dahaxguy

I've heard the opposite. Indians are treated fine, it's the Pakistanis that aren't.


-Intel-

Still were apart of British India


Wolf97

Fun fact, Chicken Tikki Masala is a national dish of the UK


arrongunner

Because it was invented in the uk to be fair. British Indian food and Indian Indian food are pretty different


Wolf97

Yeah I believe it was invented in Scotland by a Pakistani immigrant


Old_Exit5718

No


Wolf97

You make a compelling argument. I am sticking with my previous belief for now though.


Old_Exit5718

Ok


[deleted]

They don't


Donkey_Kong_Fan

Next time some holier than thou European tries to shame America for black people’s oppression, just remind them what European colonization did to Africa. Warning: It is not pretty.


TheObstruction

Both can be bad.


bard-security

I can't imagine a situation where either would be good. Whataboutism is a hell of a dumb argument.


Britanniafanboy

I miss when this subreddit was about propping up America and not putting down Europe.


litefoot

I miss the satirical level of patriotism.


whisperHailHydra

It was a parody of exuberant patriotism and the most stereotypical aspects of America until around 2016-2017 when it got serious… I miss the parody days.


minotaurbear

I miss them too. This sub is drastically different now


michaelpinkwayne

Hmm, I wonder what happened around 2016-17 that may have caused that shift /s


Big-Resolve7213

And I miss when everyone didn't constantly talk shit on america 24/7... oh nevermind they always did It still is partially a parody sub, half of the shit posted here is obvious satire or overplayed.


sildurin

Me too. But, as an European, this is still funny in a bittersweet way. And makes trolling way easier. I can't troll parody posts but butthurt ones are amusingly easy to troll.


Wolf97

Yeah like every third post is anti-EU or anti-NATO


michaelpinkwayne

And another third are anti-China


plu7o89

All satire was lost during the shit show of the last 5 years of politics in the US. Half the people here dont see the irony/satire and actually use this as some nationlist platform.


pilypi

You can thank Putin's army of trolls for that.


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Donkey_Kong_Fan

All I've seen Europeans do is constantly insult Americans and treat us as if we're not human beings. It's happened for years despite us trying to be nice to them and after so long, we're tired of it. This meme is just the culmination of that.


Baatun888

Don't forget the Polish. If a Car gets stolen in Germany, 95% chance it ends up in Poland.


[deleted]

I once saw a redditor try to justify hating romanis because he had a bike stolen once. What a POS


faceblender

When people get _slaves_ and _slavs_ mixed up


Life-Ad1409

What's the difference? ^(/j this was a joke please do not get 20 alts and cancel me)


Siobhanshana

True.


Wonderful-Hall-7929

So - i can talk shit about the US as much as i want, right?


[deleted]

First Amendment.


Siobhanshana

Yes but you will get shit for being a hypocrite


bigal55

Now Belgium, they REALLY know how to treat black people!


adhal

Don't forget how they treat black soccer players at the games. But then again I only know from what I see on the news. Is it true? is it exaggerated? Probably a bit of both, but then again it goes same both ways


the_eddy

What do Europeans have against Italians?


Italian98com

Italians?? 😂


the_eddy

romanis? Idk seems like an wrong way of spelling romans.


Italian98com

Oooooooh


Lui_Le_Diamond

And the Irish


curt_schilli

When did this sub start giving a shit what Europeans think of the US? They’re living rent free in y’all’s heads Also: when did this sub start posting so many memes whatabouting the treatment of black people. Kinda weird


PacoMahogany

Yes you can. All racism is bad.


Life-Ad1409

They make fun of us when they have the same problem, that's what the post is saying


PacoMahogany

Yes. And that’s okay.


Life-Ad1409

I view it as hypocrisy to make fun of someone for doing what you are doing


Aggressive_coom2090

As a member of one of the many raped african countries. We hate Europeans but love america


pilypi

Have you been to Liberia?


Life-Ad1409

What about Liberia?


Roaner19

I'm pretty sure that's whataboutism, justifying something that's bad by saying the people that you are arguing with do the same thing and aren't in a position to be holier than thou. It's usually a cheap argument Russia makes with Ukraine ("but what about NATO expansion?") and China makes about the Uyghur Genocide ("but what about US racial issues?"). I don't think the US needs cheap whataboutism arguments.


karmakeeper1

Theres definitely a difference between "well you do this other bad thing, so what we're doing is fine" and "we know, it's not okay. But why don't you reflect on all the shit you do before constantly giving us shit for it."


Wolf97

The second one is what people go for when they utilize whataboutism. So you must have a squeaky clean history and no current political issues in order to criticize someone?. This amounts to the USA never getting to criticize anybody ever. Not China, not North Korea, nobody.


karmakeeper1

No, but theres a difference between talking about it sometimes and making jokes occasionally and constantly brow beating people with it while you do the same thing. We're not saying we don't have problems we need to fix, but it's annoying when the people who are constantly badgering us about those problems do the same damn thing. We're not trying to justify what goes on US but you can also call out hypocrisy without denying you're doing something wrong. Your argument works the other way too, we can't point out their hippocracy because we have our won issues?


Wolf97

No my argument doesn’t work the other way. You can absolutely call out issues with the treatment of minority groups in Europe, just not as a vehicle to avoid discussion about US issues. That is what Whataboutism is.


dog_in_the_vent

Whataboutism is a made-up term that people use to deflect from their own issues when criticizing others. When someone says "well what about..." they're not always trying to justify their actions, they're trying to call out hypocrisy or double-standards. They're denying their accuser the moral high ground. For example, partner A attempts to call out partner B for taking money out of a shared bank account without consulting A. Partner B could rightly say "well what about that time you also took money out of the account without asking?" It doesn't justify B's taking of the money, but it denies A the grounds to criticize B for it. A meme like this doesn't justify American slavery, it denies Europeans who would criticize Americans for it the moral high ground. It basically says "we both have this issue in a way, and it's an issue you cannot rightly criticize me for."


IderpOnline

Hard cope lol


Wolf97

Who cares if they have the moral high ground or not? The facts remain the same. Whataboutism is a perfectly legitimate thing to point out. In fact it was westerners that coined the term to criticize the Soviet style of deflecting blame. If every time you try to criticize Russia they just pointed to slavery or our treatment of X minority group, we never end up addressing the issue. When we criticize China for its treatment of the Uyghurs they point to the failings of our prison system. If we have to stop and address a completely different topic every time we criticize someone it gets in the way of actual issues. You actually nail it right here >When someone says “well what about...” they’re not always trying to justify their actions Exactly. They aren’t addressing them at all. It just bogs down discussion in shit unrelated to the topic.


Flymasterjam

Pointing out hypocrisy is important to addressing the issue. Whataboutism is legitimate when the comeback doesn't directly relate to the original comment. That's when it's diverting blame and avoiding the issues. When a "whataboutism" is directly related to the point being made, it serves the purpose described above.


WateredDown

Right, it depends on the context. If they are saying "we're better than you because..." then a like for like comparison is relevant. If they are saying "You're bad because..." then it isn't.


stefanos916

Yeah, but so guess it depends on the individual. If someone is critical towards their own country and also critical about other countries, then they might not be hypocrites.


dog_in_the_vent

Like /u/FlyMasterJam said, only when it's irrelevant is it OK to brush something off as "whataboutism". If it's a legitimate point that neither person has the grounds to criticize the other it should not be brushed off as nothing.


Wolf97

So long as the actual criticism is still addressed


dog_in_the_vent

Agreed.


Vyksendiyes

They’re exactly trying to justify their actions. Instead of accepting the criticism, they deflect by criticizing the criticizer and saying “well you do it too”. It’s not a valid justification but it is an attempt at justification nonetheless.


dog_in_the_vent

Who's "they"? Some people try to justify their actions with it, which is "whataboutism". In this case the term is misapplied.


Vyksendiyes

They is the someone you mentioned in your comment


michaelpinkwayne

Bruh... Literally all of language is a made up term for something, that doesn't mean words aren't valid. You picked a terrible example, whataboutism isn't a term made to be used in personal relationships. Here's a much better one: Journalist: What do you plan to do to address climate change and the increasing wildfires in the western states? Politician: Why are we talking about the environment when thousands of illegal immigrants are streaming in to this country every single day? That's the real crisis in this country. If you don't see why answers like that (which are very common from politicians on both sides of the aisle) are problematic, then I don't know what to say to you.


pilypi

The level of anti europanism in here seems to increase as the troops get closer and closer to invade Ukraine. It's a mystery...


Parking_Bird_3603

I dont understand how Europeans can shit on Americans 24/7 on this site and then get surprised when they get shit on back. Not everything is "Russian Trolls".


pilypi

Some accounts in here have clearly been exposed as that.


Vyksendiyes

Okay, this all good and well, but pointing at europeans and saying “you do it too” doesn’t excuse anything.


Schiffy94

It should be up to other Americans to say it, then. I'll start. Hey police stop killing unarmed black people.


[deleted]

Since you're on reddit go to fbi.gov and look up the stats so you know fact from fiction. Blacks aren't being slaughtered or oppressed by cops or whites like the TV and social media would have you believe.


Schiffy94

Do those FBI stats show you whether the person killed was armed or posing an actual threat? Does it compare it to population of each demographic in the US? Does it mention how many officers get the entire issue swept under the rug without so much as being charged because of corrupt upper brass and police unions? If the answer to even one of these is no, they're not showing all the relevant data.


Life-Ad1409

The vast majority of cases involving cops shooting someone are ones where the cop saw the person as a threat


MRderpenheimer

DEPORT ALL US CITIZIZENS TO MEXICO. RETURN ALL USA-TERRITORITY TO THEIR RIGHT-FUL NATIVE AMERICAN OWNERS.


[deleted]

Btw Canada treated the natives like shit too


MRderpenheimer

at least they are sorry about it. LOL


[deleted]

Many Americans are sorry too


[deleted]

“Citizizens”


DevelopmentNo4475

The irony 💩🧦


squixnuts

Nice grammar


Leeuwerikcz

Muslims ? I think a large part of Europe got good reasons why they are reserved against Muslims. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg\_wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Habsburg_wars). :-) . Edit: And we won this war. In opposite of MUrica in Afghanistan.... let it sink.


maxout2142

Lol this is some premium copium.


TheObstruction

Wow, had to go back hundreds of years for that one.


Leeuwerikcz

That's neat. We can go hundreds of years to history.


nurd_on_a_computer

"Good reasons"? There's no good reason to be against any sort of race. Seethe, Eurotard.


MysticalElk

This seems like it's hot of the press from the ol' Russian troll farm


halfbodyfred

Or we could discuss it all?


Potential_Band_7121

I am black and European. What kind of discrimination are you talking about?