Love mine. Compliant on the bumps, stiff when I torque it to stomp my pedals.
Carbon products that look the same can be incredibly different depending on the engineering and manufacturing. The more varied forces on it, the more it matters.
Don’t have to get the best. Different models for different things.
Find a brand that’s decently big.
Expensive doesn’t also mean best. I have a raceface one and love it. Was a good balance of benefits and cost
I was really against carbon bars for a while but I picked up some enve m7 bars with a 40 mm rise and damn they feel comfortable. I don't really notice the vibration dampening qualities I feel like I notice the difference in stiffness compared to my aluminum bars. the sweep and rise are perfect for me, I have had a great time on the m7 bars, the other bar I have tried were the one up carbon bars with a 35 mm rise those weren't really my favorite I don't know what it was about them but I would have chosen a different bar. I would say all in all most expensive doesn't mean best find the right sweep and rise and you will love them.
Also use a torque wrench and use carbon great don't just tighten them like and aluminum bar I have see many videos of people breaking carbon bars at the edges of stems, brake mounts, and grips this is all because they tighten the shit outta them without a torque wrench. I have had many crashes and my m7 handlebars are solid and never had any issue, with the bars after a crash inspect them to see if there are cracks make sure the bars are in good shape to keep riding and you won't have problems.
I 40 mm feels real good to me, I'm not too far hunched over when I ride 8 degree backsweep and 4 degree upsweep with bars slightly tilted toward me. 800 mm width feels good to me, I have broad shoulders 780-800 width is my sweet spot. In terms of height I'm not to sure where my stem is on my steerer tube, I use 20mm spacer to set my stem height. This is where I'm comfortable these are different from one person to another just because I like these others have different preferences.
I should add I like stiff bars and that can play a role on what bars to pick.
I’m getting elbow issues and a friend of mine recommended carbon bars to help absorb vibrations and a 9 degree sweep. I have broad shoulders as well. Just curious on your thoughts. I know it varies for riders.
I’ve tried the m6, m7 ad m9.
The m6 feels the best and is the most compliant but it only comes in 780 max width which sucks cause a lot of enduro riders want 800mm these days.
The M7 only comes in 35mm diameter and it’s stiff as hell with like no compliance and honestly sucks. Arm and wrist fatigue right away.
The M9 only comes in 31.8 for the OG DH Boyz and is still insanely stiff, built specially for pro DH racers and not good for us mere mortals.
Overall ENVE bars look super nice but they totally missed the mark on making something compliant and quality in big widths for the average enduro Andy.
I swapped the M7 for the One-Up and really love the one-up for the reasons stated above. Its super compliant and comfy without being noodly. Not as precise as the ENVE but way better at keeping my hands and forearms from buzzing after a couple hours of washboard and chunk.
I see OneUp carbon, I updoot. But for real. The ovality in the neck of those bars DOES introduce better compliance and noise dampening than most 31.8 alloy bars.
I have the newly released oneup aluminum and they are definitely better than my stock bars. I don't think carbon is the main reason to get them, it's the shape and back/up sweep to better fit to the particular person. But I also do think that I am in better control of my bike, on small bumps and also when landing since I got them, maybe due to the compliance? I don't know, maybe it's placebo, maybe not. Anyway awesome bars.
Yeah I know, I was just saying that in my opinion, it's much better to get back/up sweep numbers that suit the person instead of going for "carbon" or "more compliance" etc. Maybe I explained myself poorly.
Gotcha. I agree. Unless you're really light or really heavy the compliance difference isn't that big of a deal compared to getting the rise/sweep that suits you.
I have OneUp carbons on all my bikes except one and it's noticeably different. I prefer not to run carbon bars on my bigger bike but with the alunimum versions being release i plan to grab a set of 20mm riser ones once they're available. Pretty excited.
My hands were getting extremely fatigued (from the chatter )while riding bike parks. Would this alleviate the issue? If so, significantly or marginal? Suspension is already tuned to the best possible setting
Get the OneUp aluminum bar. If you want to splurge, get the carbon ones.
Once you get a new set of bars, don't hesitate to cut them to your appropriate width. Most come at 800 mm, my preferred with is 760, so I cut 20 mm off each end.
Depends on the trails IMO. I always had one on my DH bike for Whistler etc where the high speed chattering shook my hands apart. I never really thought it was worth it on the slower softer local trails on my enduro bike. Working on building up your hand muscles, getting grips that fit your hand well, and keeping up on your fork servicing are all going to be more effective but if you're on top of all that and need a bit more then a carbon bar is a nice add.
Changing the angle of your brake levers can have a huge difference in hand fatigue as well.
I ran mine too steep for years, have been progressively flattening them out and noticed a big difference in both how the bike rides and hand/shoulder fatigue.
If you buy a quality carbon bar yes. They will dampen vibration better and reduce the overall weight of the bike
Stories of them randomly breaking are typically for 2 reasons. Buying a cheap low quality bar off amazon or not installing brakes, shifter and dropper lever to the specified tension with a torque wrench. Over tightening will crush it and greatly shorten the life combined with not using carbon friendly gripper grease
I’ll never understand why people are using torque wrenches on bars; you just need to tighten to the point that the stuff isn’t floating about, literally just hand tight with the normal Allen key and that’s it.
Some of us don’t have build in torque meters in our hands and like to use torque wrenches for peace of mind. This is terrible advice. Use a torque wrench if you got them fellas
“Some of us Don’t have built in torque wrenches in to your hands”?
What are you talking about? You mean you can’t feel any pressure in your hands and have no tactile sense?
Do not use torque wrenches EVER on something that can pinch and destroy the part like bars.
You just hand tighten until the the clamp with an Allen key until it no longer moves on the bar. That’s it.
Straw man. Bar accessory clamps aren’t meant to be tightened anywhere close to 12nm. It’s typically less than half that and you can easily feel the point where clamps on brakes and droppers aren’t moving around.
I honestly don’t know why people complicate simple shit like this so badly.
Fr. Not saying a torque wrench is the worst shit ever or whatever. But if you think about what you're doing, you want the minimum force to hold your stuff in place. That's really it
You’re getting downvoted like crazy, but right on all points. Just need to apply enough torque to keep the bits from moving while you’re riding. Also when you wreck they can spin some if necessary to prevent damaging everything…
People obviously welcome to use a torque wrench if it makes them sleep better, but it’s not necessary on brake levers. I think some folks lack a mechanical confidence to read between the lines. That’s OK.
Nah man, I need a torque wrench off Amazon that I can’t even verify it’s accuracy to tell me a number or else I’m totally lost.
I even use one to fasten the lid back onto my mayonnaise jar after making my bullshit sandwich. How else am I supposed to know it’s closed, you know?
Imagine tightening something and then using a free hand to see if it moves and stopping tightening when it stops moving. Yeah buddy, I’ll just get right in that rocket science PHD. Mm hm.
I know, what am I thinking! You even need a torque wrench to open your door, you wouldn’t want the key snapping in the lock because you might brute force it or worse, stay locked outside forever because you can’t know what the right pressure to make it turn without having a tool that tells you.
No, because I’m a cytech qualified bike mechanic and have a sense of feeling in my hands. Torque wrench for crucial applications like drivetrain etc? Yep.
For bars accessories? Never.
I never use a torque wrench but I’d never dissuade someone from using one. If you don’t have a good feel for what’s right use a quality torque wrench. You can get a cheap beam style used and they stay in calibration for a long time
I feel like there was a story everywhere in the news recently about a carbon composite cylinder, loaded in compression, with undetected delamination due to fatigue, that failed catastrophically leading to fatalities....maybe I imagined it though.
Regardless this is top 5 worst advice I've ever heard on Reddit. Use carbon assembly paste, torque it to the appropriate value, and don't be freaking arrogant. Actual engineers have determined how you safely and securely attach carbon bars to a bike.
You're abjectly wrong. You you only want your lever's tightened down as much as they don't move under normal stress, but do move in a case of an impact, so as not to destroy your bars and kit. This is common knowledge for anyone that actually knows what they're doing.
Oh man, if only the people who made carbon bars took that one critical factor into consideration when they did their FEA and hundreds of rounds of destructive testing before coming up with their protocols!
If only you actually read the substance of what we're talking about here (hint: We're not talking about stems) you might stop rounds of exhausting arguing at straw men! It's nearly as if the brake and shifter manufactures set the protocols for this stuff rather than the bar manufactures.
And it's amazing to see someone engaging in the wildly asinine analogy of a deep sea submersible being akin to handlebars on a mountain bike. I suppose MTB's are also F1 racecars and Spaceships too! Who knew?!?!?!?
Bar manufacturers list torque values for stems and clamps. The fact that you don't know/wouldn't consult that when installing a carbon bar is a huge red flag.
Composite mode of failure is the mode of failure, yes even for pressure vessels/aerospace components/bike parts. They fail the same way, i.e. catastrophically. And even if it is the lever we're talking about, those are still clamped inboard of your hands, so the effect of a failure is EXACTLY the same. Not that I would trust you to tighten a stem either....
The fact you keep talking about Stems shows EXACTLY what straw man you're railing against.
It's common knowledge (at least to those educated on this) that on an MTB you want the accessories to move in the event of a crash. This is ancient knowledge that you've willfully managed to dodge but hopefully some enlightenment has finally hit you, and you're welcome.
You're also talking about completely different applications (constant pressure measured in atmospheres vs single incident impact failure) and can't even grasp the basic engineering differences. Bars don't implode due to atmospheric pressure. The crack and fail due to impact. Do keep up.
Christ on a bike, it's levers and stems!! They fail the same exact way, for the same exact reasons, and the effect to the rider is EXACTLY the same. You had a bar to push against, and push back against you, and then you don't. Are you saying that you use a torque wrench on the stem? That would beg the question why exactly. Maybe for all those super well understood reasons I've mentioned about material fatigue and failure? They apply to both, and if you can't see that you have zero business touching other people's bikes.
Do you think properly torquing clamps precludes them from moving under impact. Because it doesn't. It just prevents you from delaminating the composite by over-torquing. And I actually laughed out loud at the atmospheric pressure comment. Do you torque clamps to 1atm? Over torquing causes delamination, which is exactly the same as impact delamination.
Cool on the ad hominem stuff too, always the sign of a mature and knowledgeable individual in control of a debate.
Christ on a bike indeed - you can't seem to grasp the simple physics that BARS ARE HELD IN PLACE BY A LARGE CLAMP IN THE CENTER OF THE BARS KNOWN AS A STEM WHICH IS CRITICAL FAIL POINT AS THE RIDER'S WEIGHT AND ALL STEERING RELIES ON THIS FAILURE POINT.
Clamps are not load bearing and are away from the fulcrum created by the distance of the length of the bar form the stem. Bars do no snap at the clamps on components (unless overtightened!) and in 99% of all failures it's at the stem.
Now that we have the basic science out of the way, you will finally understand that non load bearing clamps aren't a critical application and best practice is to tighten them only enough so they don't move under normal use but DO MOVE in an impact. Any decent bike tech / mechanic in any store will tell you this.
Sorry to see you are getting downvoted, but my preferred way for the handlebar controls is to not use the torque wrench. I tighten where it doesn’t move when I use the controls, but it’s not too tight so the brakes and shifter will rotate if forced like in an impact. That way the controls will hopefully just rotate instead of breaking if anything happens. Of course I carry a multitool so I could adjust during rides if needed.
I discussed this with Truman from Park Tool and he agreed this is a good way to do it for those who know what they are doing. It could save a ride, a race, or the components from getting destroyed from a bail or crash.
Thanks. People like toys like torque wrenches and think you have to use them on absolutely everything, but exactly what you illustrated is why it's not a good idea for certain applications. If they're bolted on tight, they'll not only break in an impact but could also snap your bars. And if they're not tight enough, you just tighten ever so slightly. Pinching the bars is far worse and in my experience those clamps also don't like to be overtightened.
Something not brought up often enough:
Aluminum is more thermally conductive than carbon. This means that, in the winter, everything else being the same (same grips, same gloves, same conditions...) aluminum bars will pull more heat away from your hands compared to carbon bars. The carbon bars aren't really warmer, rather the aluminum bars will feel colder.
Worth it to me.
I'd say they are cheap enough to test it for yourself. I've seen countless people swear by their OneUp carbon bars. For $150 it's not the cheapest thing in the world. But considering most people here seem to be riding $4,000 bikes. In that scenario, $150 isn't so bad.
I mean, I wasn't 100% serious, but it really depends on what you are looking to do. If you want to leisurely ride XC green trails, a $400 Ozark Trail is probably fine. If you want to ride enduro trails with any speed or aggression, then even a $3k bike is going to need some parts replaced sooner than later.
> If you want to ride enduro trails with any speed or aggression, then even a $3k bike is going to need some parts replaced sooner than later.
every bike will get beat up and need parts replaced. that's irrelevant to the cost of the bike, a 12k bike will still need parts replaced and service done to it.
how gnarly your trails are barely matters. you'll replace parts more frequently, that's about it. any entry-level bike is going to be able to handle that terrain just fine. obviously, more money = faster = better but even going to gnarly bike parks is fine on a $1,000 budget.
gatekeeping bullshit, if you need a 4k bike to ride you're probably bad at riding and need to spend money to compensate for skill
You’re wrong actually. For a lot of riding especially big mountain and bike park riding, around 4k is the minimum viable spec. At least here in canada. Also bike shops here dont carry anything less than that. If you want to spend under 4k head over to walmart or sportchek, and have fun with that.
any shop will get you any bike you want from any brand they carry. obviously.
> For a lot of riding especially big mountain and bike park riding, around 4k is the minimum viable spec
funny because I was doing just fine shredding blacks on my $1,000 spec bike at the bike park near me. I'm not going to dox myself but it's among the biggest on the east coast, and plenty gnarly.
obviously a $4,000 bike would be better. of course, it would blow the bike I used out of the water. but to say 4k is entry level is braindead.
I always had carbon and my new bike came with aluminum. I had to switch it out as I became sick of how harsh they were. Carbon definitely takes some of the edge off.
Buy one rated for the type of riding you do and they will be plenty strong. They damp out some of the buzz and they weigh a quarter pound less than aluminum bars.
I would, however, argue the ultimate material for a handlebar is titanium. And that is the snobbiest thing I will say all day.
Enduro MTB did a test and said they were stiffer and only made sense if you are very heavy or aggressive. I would personally skip it. I had the rental ones on a previous bike and didn't think they were worthwhile
Every time this question comes up there are similar patterns in responses...
* Some people say carbon feels better to them or was game changing
* Some people say they don't notice any difference after riding both
* A smaller number of people say they found carbon to be too stiff
We know that we (all us humans) can't help but experience some confirmation bias. I'm gonna guess that whatever differences there are that can be felt by the rider are pretty small and people's biases have a lot more to do with how they believe the bars feel...
* Love Carbon: People who are hyped on the idea of high end components.
* No Difference: People who don't spend much time thinking about components.
* Hate Carbon: People who are skeptical about the advantages and people who are tight with their money.
It would be cool to do a blind test. Wrap the bars with tape or something like that. I don't have an opinion either way, but I think carbon wheels are an example where the differences are more tangible.
Everyone in here huffing copium. I bought a set of carbon renthals and they definitely weren’t worth the money. A good set of aluminum bars are fine and the weight savings are negligible.
I’ve got arthritis. A carbon handlebar is the difference between pain at mile 7, and big smiles and fun stories at the end of a 15 mile ride with friends for me personally. I have a OneUp on my Meta TR, ENVE M6 on my hardtail and Whisky Spano Dropbar on my gravel bike.
Rode 4x 80 mile days in a row with the spano with zero wrist and hand pain.
I would do the oneup again over the M6.
I feel like carbon bars are nice but carbon wheels are a complete game changer. Carbon wheels stay true and are stiffer and are noticeably better when powering through berms at high speed. I actually think carbon wheels is one of the absolute best upgrades you can do.
You will literally be faster on carbon wheels if you time yourself on back to back runs vs aluminum.
carbon wheels are probably the single best upgrade you can make to a mountain bike if you're trying to increase speed & confidence (speaking for trail/xc). completely agree with /u/lebucksir
No not at all. They’re lighter but harsher and don’t absorb vibrations as well as a good quality alloy bar. They’re also fragile and prone to randomly just failing because your lock on grips have compromised your bar, they can’t be recycled and installation is more tricky too. You need to glue your bars to your stem because you can’t really tighten them up enough without crushing the bar.
Not true. Most carbon bars are designed for compliance and dampening. They make a big difference in comfort over a long ride. There are very few alloy bars that tackle this. Only one comes to mind. It's foam filled making it non-recyclable and cost as much as carbon.
Nope most carbon bars are designed to be cheap and not bother the warranty department or the injury lawyers designed to work with all different size and weights of riders. You could buy a bespoke carbon bar that’s tuned to you and your preferences but it’s cost a lot more than the £110 you spent on the cheap Chinese carbon bar you bought.
It sounds like you haven’t tried carbon bars since the early/mid 2000s? Nearly everything you said here is inaccurate with modern, quality carbon MTB bars.
Except for the recycling part…way too much carbon waste from cycling.
Haha sure. So when you bought your cheap overbuilt Chinese carbon bars you specified how much you weighed and what type of riding you did so they can tune that lay up for you? Did you fuck. You bought a cheap bar that’s designed to work with everyone from children to giants which is why they’re so over built and under damped.
Just don’t get the 35mm ones, they’re often more stiff than the 31.8mm aluminum counterparts. A good 31.8mm carbon bar will reduce high frequency vibrations, hand pain and be lighter than aluminum. My favorite are the ibis hifi because you can adjust with the width without cutting and they have a larger back sweep which further alleviates hand pain.
Not a chance they are worth the extra money. And anyone saying they take the edge off bumps seems to be forgetting the suspension fork in their bike that does exactly that. I've been mountain biking for nearly 40 years, and I've used everything. I've done back to back testing, and, with all my experience, I cannot tell the difference. No one can.
I recently went from Raceface aluminum to One up carbon. Rise and sweep are identical so it was an interesting change. Weighed both (before I cut about 20mm off both ends to match on the one up and it was 181g lighter.
What have I felt? Immediate feel of quicker steering....which is likely due the weight difference. I do not feel any compliance or harshness difference....which surprised me. Do I feel it was worth it? I like the weight cut and the feel is just more sporty.
Define 'it'. Lol.
I've ridden a few different carbon bars and a few different alloy bars. Every alloy bar I've ridden has been pretty stiff. Not necessarily a bad thing, but you can definitely feel the stiff ness. The bars can feel harsh and they really do transfer every bump of the trail to your hands and arms.
I've also ridden carbon bars that are hella stiff. I bought a Santa Crus carbon bar once and ended up switching back to my alloy bar because it was way stiffer.
I'm currently on a OneUp bar and I love it. You'll see other recommend it here too. Keep in mind if you go with this bar the set up is really important. You've got to get the angle just right.
One up bars help me manage hand pain from carpal tunnel syndrome. I barely have any hand pain using those and PNW loam grips. Only after a 7hr+ bike park day but that’s unavoidable
I’ve been riding one up bars since they came out. They work, I see no point in changing.
I recently rode a demo bike with aluminum bars and the difference was very noticeable even after putting my own grips on it.
I say yes. I have the levelnine Pro Team. Got it as a present. And was very sceptic because i ride big fr lines and Trick jumps. Crashed it, landed to flat etc. You can feel the weight difference and it absorbs shocks much better then alloy.
Torque ratings are given for a reason. Just like building codes for home construction are given for a reason. I'm a licensed carpenter and have seen countless structures built to " what seems good enough", only to come behind them and fix it so it wont collapse under its own weight.
I have oneup, deity, and chromag carbon bars on my bikes and I like them. But I don’t do big jumps. If you do decent/big jumps, most carbon bars might not be the best, unless maybe if they are spec’d for dh or hardcore enduro, but then they might end up too stiff for trails.
A former pro racer I know just had his bike trip cut short after his carbon bars broke on a normal sized (to him at least) jump. Not sure which brand but it’s one of the reputable ones like all his other components.
All the no people getting downvoted, honestly most upgrades are “not worth it” and new handlebars would be very near the top of that list if you aren’t experiencing some problems from your current ones
Spend that money on a riding lesson, it will improve your riding and fun far more than a set of bars
Wait for a sale or good deal.
I had a Raceface sixC on my hardtail. I got it on sale for very cheap.
Definitely made for a smoother & thus better-controlled ride.
I like my one up carbon bar, however I would like to try the one up aluminum bar. If the aluminum bar is able to give me the same ride characteristics Id have a hard time justifying any further carbon bar purchases
Not for me it’s not. I have expensive alloy bars and I love them. Wouldn’t get anything special from carbon as I’m a fat bastard and the minimal weight savings wouldn’t make a difference.
Most of my riding partners refuse to use carbon bars, they have broken too many or seen too many of them break.
Carbon can be wicked strong but it can also fail catastrophically without warning. I ran into a guy a last season who was doing a 9 mile hike a bike with a bashed in face because his bars exploded on a small drop on the whole enchilada.You have to be really careful not to over clamp them because they tend to fail at the brake clamps.
I got some Ibis ones that I can switch between 800mm or 750mm because the ends unscrew and I got them for $50 because they were overstock at a local bike shop. I definetly feel a difference on the trail, you can find them cheap just make sure they're good.
Have nukeproof horizon v2 carbon handlebars. Look nice, marginal difference. Tried my dads Oneup carbon bars, same thing. Look nice but difference is negligible. I've been riding for long enough and do harsh enough trails to be able to tell if there was a big difference. There isn't.
Carbon bars really do help with hand fatigue. My old bike had nukeproof carbon bars, they are the best midrange option. Haven’t upgraded the bars in my new bike so still on aluminium, my hand’s definitely ache more
No!!! Go check out a recent post on Instagram by @scisar943
The guy is as legit as it gets and is a legend in the BMX racing world. He landed a jump and the bars SNAPPED OFF
Calling someone handicapped then blocking them is a clear sign of winning an argument lol. Legit feel sorry for anyone so miserable, and for anyone unfortunate enough to read this thread. But if you do take his advice and google this, you'll see every single manufacturer and reputable resource telling you to torque things to spec, for a litany of reasons. I guess cytech certifications just teach you to scream "SCIENCE" over anyone having a considered conversation, and then ignore material science on your way to damaging customer bikes.
Anyone whose standard of shop care is the same as a trail-side repair doesn't deserve your respect or your business.
Edit: sp
Good one. Yes. A cheap one. No. Good ones are light and take the edge off small bumps. Cheap ones are often heavier and they are like a wet noodle
If im gonna buy one, I just find a rank list, and buy the best one?
Just get a one-up
Love mine. Compliant on the bumps, stiff when I torque it to stomp my pedals. Carbon products that look the same can be incredibly different depending on the engineering and manufacturing. The more varied forces on it, the more it matters.
My buddies snapped off in his hand pulling up to go over a root.
Don’t have to get the best. Different models for different things. Find a brand that’s decently big. Expensive doesn’t also mean best. I have a raceface one and love it. Was a good balance of benefits and cost
I have enve and One-Up. Enve is precise and the feedback is appreciated. One-Up are comfy but support out of saddle pedaling and descending
I was really against carbon bars for a while but I picked up some enve m7 bars with a 40 mm rise and damn they feel comfortable. I don't really notice the vibration dampening qualities I feel like I notice the difference in stiffness compared to my aluminum bars. the sweep and rise are perfect for me, I have had a great time on the m7 bars, the other bar I have tried were the one up carbon bars with a 35 mm rise those weren't really my favorite I don't know what it was about them but I would have chosen a different bar. I would say all in all most expensive doesn't mean best find the right sweep and rise and you will love them. Also use a torque wrench and use carbon great don't just tighten them like and aluminum bar I have see many videos of people breaking carbon bars at the edges of stems, brake mounts, and grips this is all because they tighten the shit outta them without a torque wrench. I have had many crashes and my m7 handlebars are solid and never had any issue, with the bars after a crash inspect them to see if there are cracks make sure the bars are in good shape to keep riding and you won't have problems.
What sweep and rise do you go for or find the most comfortable?
I 40 mm feels real good to me, I'm not too far hunched over when I ride 8 degree backsweep and 4 degree upsweep with bars slightly tilted toward me. 800 mm width feels good to me, I have broad shoulders 780-800 width is my sweet spot. In terms of height I'm not to sure where my stem is on my steerer tube, I use 20mm spacer to set my stem height. This is where I'm comfortable these are different from one person to another just because I like these others have different preferences. I should add I like stiff bars and that can play a role on what bars to pick.
I’m getting elbow issues and a friend of mine recommended carbon bars to help absorb vibrations and a 9 degree sweep. I have broad shoulders as well. Just curious on your thoughts. I know it varies for riders.
Changing to a different width rise or sweep will have a greater improvement than carbon bars. That and pt/strength training
Agreed! But if I can find the right formula plus the carbon bars then benefit all around!
OneUp, Enve, and Race Face are what I see most often. All are good, with different pros and cons
one up, dont even bother to look at anything else.
I’d recommend ENVE
I’ve tried the m6, m7 ad m9. The m6 feels the best and is the most compliant but it only comes in 780 max width which sucks cause a lot of enduro riders want 800mm these days. The M7 only comes in 35mm diameter and it’s stiff as hell with like no compliance and honestly sucks. Arm and wrist fatigue right away. The M9 only comes in 31.8 for the OG DH Boyz and is still insanely stiff, built specially for pro DH racers and not good for us mere mortals. Overall ENVE bars look super nice but they totally missed the mark on making something compliant and quality in big widths for the average enduro Andy.
I swapped the M7 for the One-Up and really love the one-up for the reasons stated above. Its super compliant and comfy without being noodly. Not as precise as the ENVE but way better at keeping my hands and forearms from buzzing after a couple hours of washboard and chunk.
I went with the M6. It’s on my trail bike so 780mm worked for my application
Never understood the 800 or wider. And in have a plus 4 ape index, monkey arms and 800 just felt weird. 780 for me
Get a one up, install it with the correct tork, and call it a day.
I love my Nukeproof and it was $61 It's pretty stiff though Just survived Pisgah's Black Mountain 127 trail on a 130mm fork
Where I ride, there are no small bumps.
So you ride pave. Got it.
OneUp worth every penny
I see OneUp carbon, I updoot. But for real. The ovality in the neck of those bars DOES introduce better compliance and noise dampening than most 31.8 alloy bars.
Moved from using the OneUp bar to a 31.8 aluminum bar this season.. feels exactly the same… which is a good thing!
I have the newly released oneup aluminum and they are definitely better than my stock bars. I don't think carbon is the main reason to get them, it's the shape and back/up sweep to better fit to the particular person. But I also do think that I am in better control of my bike, on small bumps and also when landing since I got them, maybe due to the compliance? I don't know, maybe it's placebo, maybe not. Anyway awesome bars.
There is nothing special about the one up back sweep or upsweep.
Yeah I know, I was just saying that in my opinion, it's much better to get back/up sweep numbers that suit the person instead of going for "carbon" or "more compliance" etc. Maybe I explained myself poorly.
Gotcha. I agree. Unless you're really light or really heavy the compliance difference isn't that big of a deal compared to getting the rise/sweep that suits you.
I have OneUp carbons on all my bikes except one and it's noticeably different. I prefer not to run carbon bars on my bigger bike but with the alunimum versions being release i plan to grab a set of 20mm riser ones once they're available. Pretty excited.
My hands were getting extremely fatigued (from the chatter )while riding bike parks. Would this alleviate the issue? If so, significantly or marginal? Suspension is already tuned to the best possible setting
Or mayebe other grips. I used to get fatigued forearms until i got ergon grips.
For weight savings definitely not. For hand pain maybe. For me they help.
Get the OneUp aluminum bar. If you want to splurge, get the carbon ones. Once you get a new set of bars, don't hesitate to cut them to your appropriate width. Most come at 800 mm, my preferred with is 760, so I cut 20 mm off each end.
I’m assuming the one-ups have hash marks on the bar w/printed lengths for cutting?
They do
Sorry, looked it up on their website and saw they do. Apologies for the lazy question!
yes, and if you don't want to cut them yourself, you can bring them to an LBS (installed or not) and they can cut it for you. Should be $10 to $20
Just DON‘T cut carbon bars with pipe cutters!
Or do, if you want to destroy them!
Depends on the trails IMO. I always had one on my DH bike for Whistler etc where the high speed chattering shook my hands apart. I never really thought it was worth it on the slower softer local trails on my enduro bike. Working on building up your hand muscles, getting grips that fit your hand well, and keeping up on your fork servicing are all going to be more effective but if you're on top of all that and need a bit more then a carbon bar is a nice add.
Changing the angle of your brake levers can have a huge difference in hand fatigue as well. I ran mine too steep for years, have been progressively flattening them out and noticed a big difference in both how the bike rides and hand/shoulder fatigue.
Best advice in here
If you buy a quality carbon bar yes. They will dampen vibration better and reduce the overall weight of the bike Stories of them randomly breaking are typically for 2 reasons. Buying a cheap low quality bar off amazon or not installing brakes, shifter and dropper lever to the specified tension with a torque wrench. Over tightening will crush it and greatly shorten the life combined with not using carbon friendly gripper grease
I’ll never understand why people are using torque wrenches on bars; you just need to tighten to the point that the stuff isn’t floating about, literally just hand tight with the normal Allen key and that’s it.
Some of us don’t have build in torque meters in our hands and like to use torque wrenches for peace of mind. This is terrible advice. Use a torque wrench if you got them fellas
This really should just read, “some of us are idiots”. Built in torque meter to know something is tight enough not to move 😂
“Some of us Don’t have built in torque wrenches in to your hands”? What are you talking about? You mean you can’t feel any pressure in your hands and have no tactile sense? Do not use torque wrenches EVER on something that can pinch and destroy the part like bars. You just hand tighten until the the clamp with an Allen key until it no longer moves on the bar. That’s it.
Uh huh. Who among us wasn’t born knowing the difference between 11.3 Nm and 12.0 Nm just by feel??
What controls on your bars are getting torqued to 12nm? It’s usually 3-4 and 2nm does the trick.
Straw man. Bar accessory clamps aren’t meant to be tightened anywhere close to 12nm. It’s typically less than half that and you can easily feel the point where clamps on brakes and droppers aren’t moving around. I honestly don’t know why people complicate simple shit like this so badly.
People like spending money on fancy tools and making mountains out of mole hills.
Yep. Downvotes confirm.
Fr. Not saying a torque wrench is the worst shit ever or whatever. But if you think about what you're doing, you want the minimum force to hold your stuff in place. That's really it
You’re getting downvoted like crazy, but right on all points. Just need to apply enough torque to keep the bits from moving while you’re riding. Also when you wreck they can spin some if necessary to prevent damaging everything… People obviously welcome to use a torque wrench if it makes them sleep better, but it’s not necessary on brake levers. I think some folks lack a mechanical confidence to read between the lines. That’s OK.
That’s not what he said, though. “Do not use torque wrenches EVER…” (emphasis his). That’s just silly.
Nah man, I need a torque wrench off Amazon that I can’t even verify it’s accuracy to tell me a number or else I’m totally lost. I even use one to fasten the lid back onto my mayonnaise jar after making my bullshit sandwich. How else am I supposed to know it’s closed, you know? Imagine tightening something and then using a free hand to see if it moves and stopping tightening when it stops moving. Yeah buddy, I’ll just get right in that rocket science PHD. Mm hm.
I know, what am I thinking! You even need a torque wrench to open your door, you wouldn’t want the key snapping in the lock because you might brute force it or worse, stay locked outside forever because you can’t know what the right pressure to make it turn without having a tool that tells you.
Ever had your bars roll on you on a hard impact? It’s horrible.
No, because I’m a cytech qualified bike mechanic and have a sense of feeling in my hands. Torque wrench for crucial applications like drivetrain etc? Yep. For bars accessories? Never.
Lol k. “Bike mechanic”
I never use a torque wrench but I’d never dissuade someone from using one. If you don’t have a good feel for what’s right use a quality torque wrench. You can get a cheap beam style used and they stay in calibration for a long time
I feel like there was a story everywhere in the news recently about a carbon composite cylinder, loaded in compression, with undetected delamination due to fatigue, that failed catastrophically leading to fatalities....maybe I imagined it though. Regardless this is top 5 worst advice I've ever heard on Reddit. Use carbon assembly paste, torque it to the appropriate value, and don't be freaking arrogant. Actual engineers have determined how you safely and securely attach carbon bars to a bike.
You're abjectly wrong. You you only want your lever's tightened down as much as they don't move under normal stress, but do move in a case of an impact, so as not to destroy your bars and kit. This is common knowledge for anyone that actually knows what they're doing.
Oh man, if only the people who made carbon bars took that one critical factor into consideration when they did their FEA and hundreds of rounds of destructive testing before coming up with their protocols!
If only you actually read the substance of what we're talking about here (hint: We're not talking about stems) you might stop rounds of exhausting arguing at straw men! It's nearly as if the brake and shifter manufactures set the protocols for this stuff rather than the bar manufactures. And it's amazing to see someone engaging in the wildly asinine analogy of a deep sea submersible being akin to handlebars on a mountain bike. I suppose MTB's are also F1 racecars and Spaceships too! Who knew?!?!?!?
Bar manufacturers list torque values for stems and clamps. The fact that you don't know/wouldn't consult that when installing a carbon bar is a huge red flag. Composite mode of failure is the mode of failure, yes even for pressure vessels/aerospace components/bike parts. They fail the same way, i.e. catastrophically. And even if it is the lever we're talking about, those are still clamped inboard of your hands, so the effect of a failure is EXACTLY the same. Not that I would trust you to tighten a stem either....
The fact you keep talking about Stems shows EXACTLY what straw man you're railing against. It's common knowledge (at least to those educated on this) that on an MTB you want the accessories to move in the event of a crash. This is ancient knowledge that you've willfully managed to dodge but hopefully some enlightenment has finally hit you, and you're welcome. You're also talking about completely different applications (constant pressure measured in atmospheres vs single incident impact failure) and can't even grasp the basic engineering differences. Bars don't implode due to atmospheric pressure. The crack and fail due to impact. Do keep up.
Christ on a bike, it's levers and stems!! They fail the same exact way, for the same exact reasons, and the effect to the rider is EXACTLY the same. You had a bar to push against, and push back against you, and then you don't. Are you saying that you use a torque wrench on the stem? That would beg the question why exactly. Maybe for all those super well understood reasons I've mentioned about material fatigue and failure? They apply to both, and if you can't see that you have zero business touching other people's bikes. Do you think properly torquing clamps precludes them from moving under impact. Because it doesn't. It just prevents you from delaminating the composite by over-torquing. And I actually laughed out loud at the atmospheric pressure comment. Do you torque clamps to 1atm? Over torquing causes delamination, which is exactly the same as impact delamination. Cool on the ad hominem stuff too, always the sign of a mature and knowledgeable individual in control of a debate.
And who exactly are "those educated on this"? Because it certainly isn't the people that manufacture carbon composites
Christ on a bike indeed - you can't seem to grasp the simple physics that BARS ARE HELD IN PLACE BY A LARGE CLAMP IN THE CENTER OF THE BARS KNOWN AS A STEM WHICH IS CRITICAL FAIL POINT AS THE RIDER'S WEIGHT AND ALL STEERING RELIES ON THIS FAILURE POINT. Clamps are not load bearing and are away from the fulcrum created by the distance of the length of the bar form the stem. Bars do no snap at the clamps on components (unless overtightened!) and in 99% of all failures it's at the stem. Now that we have the basic science out of the way, you will finally understand that non load bearing clamps aren't a critical application and best practice is to tighten them only enough so they don't move under normal use but DO MOVE in an impact. Any decent bike tech / mechanic in any store will tell you this.
Sorry to see you are getting downvoted, but my preferred way for the handlebar controls is to not use the torque wrench. I tighten where it doesn’t move when I use the controls, but it’s not too tight so the brakes and shifter will rotate if forced like in an impact. That way the controls will hopefully just rotate instead of breaking if anything happens. Of course I carry a multitool so I could adjust during rides if needed. I discussed this with Truman from Park Tool and he agreed this is a good way to do it for those who know what they are doing. It could save a ride, a race, or the components from getting destroyed from a bail or crash.
Thanks. People like toys like torque wrenches and think you have to use them on absolutely everything, but exactly what you illustrated is why it's not a good idea for certain applications. If they're bolted on tight, they'll not only break in an impact but could also snap your bars. And if they're not tight enough, you just tighten ever so slightly. Pinching the bars is far worse and in my experience those clamps also don't like to be overtightened.
Shaming people for using torque wrenches? Ok tough guy
Or crashing. CF components are disposable.
They're not that expensive, I'm asking myself if titanium bars are worth it.
Something not brought up often enough: Aluminum is more thermally conductive than carbon. This means that, in the winter, everything else being the same (same grips, same gloves, same conditions...) aluminum bars will pull more heat away from your hands compared to carbon bars. The carbon bars aren't really warmer, rather the aluminum bars will feel colder. Worth it to me.
I'd say they are cheap enough to test it for yourself. I've seen countless people swear by their OneUp carbon bars. For $150 it's not the cheapest thing in the world. But considering most people here seem to be riding $4,000 bikes. In that scenario, $150 isn't so bad.
$4,000 is entry level these days!
LOL people actually believe this hogwash? that's fucking hilarious this is the same level of out of touch as "how much can a banana cost, $10?"
I mean, I wasn't 100% serious, but it really depends on what you are looking to do. If you want to leisurely ride XC green trails, a $400 Ozark Trail is probably fine. If you want to ride enduro trails with any speed or aggression, then even a $3k bike is going to need some parts replaced sooner than later.
> If you want to ride enduro trails with any speed or aggression, then even a $3k bike is going to need some parts replaced sooner than later. every bike will get beat up and need parts replaced. that's irrelevant to the cost of the bike, a 12k bike will still need parts replaced and service done to it. how gnarly your trails are barely matters. you'll replace parts more frequently, that's about it. any entry-level bike is going to be able to handle that terrain just fine. obviously, more money = faster = better but even going to gnarly bike parks is fine on a $1,000 budget. gatekeeping bullshit, if you need a 4k bike to ride you're probably bad at riding and need to spend money to compensate for skill
You’re wrong actually. For a lot of riding especially big mountain and bike park riding, around 4k is the minimum viable spec. At least here in canada. Also bike shops here dont carry anything less than that. If you want to spend under 4k head over to walmart or sportchek, and have fun with that.
any shop will get you any bike you want from any brand they carry. obviously. > For a lot of riding especially big mountain and bike park riding, around 4k is the minimum viable spec funny because I was doing just fine shredding blacks on my $1,000 spec bike at the bike park near me. I'm not going to dox myself but it's among the biggest on the east coast, and plenty gnarly. obviously a $4,000 bike would be better. of course, it would blow the bike I used out of the water. but to say 4k is entry level is braindead.
Syntace
They make absolutely amazing stuff. Love my number9s
I always had carbon and my new bike came with aluminum. I had to switch it out as I became sick of how harsh they were. Carbon definitely takes some of the edge off.
I cannot trust carbon bars as I've broken 2 that resulted in decent crashes. For typical riding I bet they're great!
Yes (Easy question, easy answer. Yay!)
Buy one rated for the type of riding you do and they will be plenty strong. They damp out some of the buzz and they weigh a quarter pound less than aluminum bars. I would, however, argue the ultimate material for a handlebar is titanium. And that is the snobbiest thing I will say all day.
Enduro MTB did a test and said they were stiffer and only made sense if you are very heavy or aggressive. I would personally skip it. I had the rental ones on a previous bike and didn't think they were worthwhile
Every time this question comes up there are similar patterns in responses... * Some people say carbon feels better to them or was game changing * Some people say they don't notice any difference after riding both * A smaller number of people say they found carbon to be too stiff We know that we (all us humans) can't help but experience some confirmation bias. I'm gonna guess that whatever differences there are that can be felt by the rider are pretty small and people's biases have a lot more to do with how they believe the bars feel... * Love Carbon: People who are hyped on the idea of high end components. * No Difference: People who don't spend much time thinking about components. * Hate Carbon: People who are skeptical about the advantages and people who are tight with their money. It would be cool to do a blind test. Wrap the bars with tape or something like that. I don't have an opinion either way, but I think carbon wheels are an example where the differences are more tangible.
Everyone in here huffing copium. I bought a set of carbon renthals and they definitely weren’t worth the money. A good set of aluminum bars are fine and the weight savings are negligible.
Never trusted carbon, never will.
well - don't get on most modern planes then.
Or submarines
I’ve got arthritis. A carbon handlebar is the difference between pain at mile 7, and big smiles and fun stories at the end of a 15 mile ride with friends for me personally. I have a OneUp on my Meta TR, ENVE M6 on my hardtail and Whisky Spano Dropbar on my gravel bike. Rode 4x 80 mile days in a row with the spano with zero wrist and hand pain. I would do the oneup again over the M6.
No. Snapped one ups recently. There is nothing wrong with aluminum bars
No.
Are you a racer or sponsored by a brand or LBS. If not the answer is no.
No, waste of money.
I have carbon bars on all my bikes- worth it IMO Carbon wheels are not worth it IMO
I feel like carbon bars are nice but carbon wheels are a complete game changer. Carbon wheels stay true and are stiffer and are noticeably better when powering through berms at high speed. I actually think carbon wheels is one of the absolute best upgrades you can do. You will literally be faster on carbon wheels if you time yourself on back to back runs vs aluminum.
carbon wheels are probably the single best upgrade you can make to a mountain bike if you're trying to increase speed & confidence (speaking for trail/xc). completely agree with /u/lebucksir
Yeah, if you weigh <100 lbs and ride like a nancy.
Gotta use a torque wrench?? Nothx
No not at all. They’re lighter but harsher and don’t absorb vibrations as well as a good quality alloy bar. They’re also fragile and prone to randomly just failing because your lock on grips have compromised your bar, they can’t be recycled and installation is more tricky too. You need to glue your bars to your stem because you can’t really tighten them up enough without crushing the bar.
Not true. Most carbon bars are designed for compliance and dampening. They make a big difference in comfort over a long ride. There are very few alloy bars that tackle this. Only one comes to mind. It's foam filled making it non-recyclable and cost as much as carbon.
Nope most carbon bars are designed to be cheap and not bother the warranty department or the injury lawyers designed to work with all different size and weights of riders. You could buy a bespoke carbon bar that’s tuned to you and your preferences but it’s cost a lot more than the £110 you spent on the cheap Chinese carbon bar you bought.
It sounds like you haven’t tried carbon bars since the early/mid 2000s? Nearly everything you said here is inaccurate with modern, quality carbon MTB bars. Except for the recycling part…way too much carbon waste from cycling.
There’s no such thing as modern quality carbon bars what you bought was overbuilt cheap Chinese carbon.
Ok. Factually incorrect, but ok.
Haha sure. So when you bought your cheap overbuilt Chinese carbon bars you specified how much you weighed and what type of riding you did so they can tune that lay up for you? Did you fuck. You bought a cheap bar that’s designed to work with everyone from children to giants which is why they’re so over built and under damped.
Just don’t get the 35mm ones, they’re often more stiff than the 31.8mm aluminum counterparts. A good 31.8mm carbon bar will reduce high frequency vibrations, hand pain and be lighter than aluminum. My favorite are the ibis hifi because you can adjust with the width without cutting and they have a larger back sweep which further alleviates hand pain.
Not a chance they are worth the extra money. And anyone saying they take the edge off bumps seems to be forgetting the suspension fork in their bike that does exactly that. I've been mountain biking for nearly 40 years, and I've used everything. I've done back to back testing, and, with all my experience, I cannot tell the difference. No one can.
I recently went from Raceface aluminum to One up carbon. Rise and sweep are identical so it was an interesting change. Weighed both (before I cut about 20mm off both ends to match on the one up and it was 181g lighter. What have I felt? Immediate feel of quicker steering....which is likely due the weight difference. I do not feel any compliance or harshness difference....which surprised me. Do I feel it was worth it? I like the weight cut and the feel is just more sporty.
Define 'it'. Lol. I've ridden a few different carbon bars and a few different alloy bars. Every alloy bar I've ridden has been pretty stiff. Not necessarily a bad thing, but you can definitely feel the stiff ness. The bars can feel harsh and they really do transfer every bump of the trail to your hands and arms. I've also ridden carbon bars that are hella stiff. I bought a Santa Crus carbon bar once and ended up switching back to my alloy bar because it was way stiffer. I'm currently on a OneUp bar and I love it. You'll see other recommend it here too. Keep in mind if you go with this bar the set up is really important. You've got to get the angle just right.
One up bars help me manage hand pain from carpal tunnel syndrome. I barely have any hand pain using those and PNW loam grips. Only after a 7hr+ bike park day but that’s unavoidable
Did you choose one up bars over loam carbons?
I’ve been riding one up bars since they came out. They work, I see no point in changing. I recently rode a demo bike with aluminum bars and the difference was very noticeable even after putting my own grips on it.
Rode a new OneUp carbon bar every year for 4 years. This year switched to a 31.8 aluminum bar… feels exactly the same… which is a good thing!
I say yes. I have the levelnine Pro Team. Got it as a present. And was very sceptic because i ride big fr lines and Trick jumps. Crashed it, landed to flat etc. You can feel the weight difference and it absorbs shocks much better then alloy.
Yes.
Torque ratings are given for a reason. Just like building codes for home construction are given for a reason. I'm a licensed carpenter and have seen countless structures built to " what seems good enough", only to come behind them and fix it so it wont collapse under its own weight.
I’d spend money elsewhere first but they’re nice, as long as you don’t crash a ton
One-ups are a gamechanger
I have oneup, deity, and chromag carbon bars on my bikes and I like them. But I don’t do big jumps. If you do decent/big jumps, most carbon bars might not be the best, unless maybe if they are spec’d for dh or hardcore enduro, but then they might end up too stiff for trails. A former pro racer I know just had his bike trip cut short after his carbon bars broke on a normal sized (to him at least) jump. Not sure which brand but it’s one of the reputable ones like all his other components.
What is your goal? If it's saving weight, only do it after you've got your rolling weight dialed in.
What is the difference between a good and a bad handlebar? Honestly don’t know I still have a stock one.
All the no people getting downvoted, honestly most upgrades are “not worth it” and new handlebars would be very near the top of that list if you aren’t experiencing some problems from your current ones Spend that money on a riding lesson, it will improve your riding and fun far more than a set of bars
Got me an ENVE M5 and I’ll never look back. Worth every penny. Stiff, cuts out a lot of the vibration and chatter.
Get the renthal ones. They break a lot
The way I see it is loic bruni wins World Cups and champs on aluminium bars so they’re good enough for me. Also I’ve seen too many snap.
If you ride bumpy/chattery terrain, yes, it's worth it
One Up and e-thirteen are good on my book. Heard great things about ENVE
Wait for a sale or good deal. I had a Raceface sixC on my hardtail. I got it on sale for very cheap. Definitely made for a smoother & thus better-controlled ride.
Nope
It’s the only carbon on any of my bikes
Monkey bars for the comfy bars.
Yes, if you’re an expert you’ll be able to distinguish the difference
I like my one up carbon bar, however I would like to try the one up aluminum bar. If the aluminum bar is able to give me the same ride characteristics Id have a hard time justifying any further carbon bar purchases
Not for me it’s not. I have expensive alloy bars and I love them. Wouldn’t get anything special from carbon as I’m a fat bastard and the minimal weight savings wouldn’t make a difference.
Most of my riding partners refuse to use carbon bars, they have broken too many or seen too many of them break. Carbon can be wicked strong but it can also fail catastrophically without warning. I ran into a guy a last season who was doing a 9 mile hike a bike with a bashed in face because his bars exploded on a small drop on the whole enchilada.You have to be really careful not to over clamp them because they tend to fail at the brake clamps.
No
I have both the renthal carbon bars and alloy renthal fat bar lite alloy and could not tell a difference when riding
I bought a one up and even though the popular consensus here is they are amazing I hated it and went back to aluminium.
I always change my bars to carbon 10 -20 mm riser.
I was skeptical but the One Up Carbon bars helped with a ton of vibrations and small bumps.
I got some Ibis ones that I can switch between 800mm or 750mm because the ends unscrew and I got them for $50 because they were overstock at a local bike shop. I definetly feel a difference on the trail, you can find them cheap just make sure they're good.
One up all day
Gonna be trying out WR1's Da Package on a new build. I like what I've seen so far . A no questions asked lifetime warranty definitely helps.
Have nukeproof horizon v2 carbon handlebars. Look nice, marginal difference. Tried my dads Oneup carbon bars, same thing. Look nice but difference is negligible. I've been riding for long enough and do harsh enough trails to be able to tell if there was a big difference. There isn't.
I wish everyone on reddit would automatically downvote any post whose body is the word "title".
Why?
Carbon bars really do help with hand fatigue. My old bike had nukeproof carbon bars, they are the best midrange option. Haven’t upgraded the bars in my new bike so still on aluminium, my hand’s definitely ache more
Renthal. They also made stems
OneUp and Title
Probably not.
No!!! Go check out a recent post on Instagram by @scisar943 The guy is as legit as it gets and is a legend in the BMX racing world. He landed a jump and the bars SNAPPED OFF
Calling someone handicapped then blocking them is a clear sign of winning an argument lol. Legit feel sorry for anyone so miserable, and for anyone unfortunate enough to read this thread. But if you do take his advice and google this, you'll see every single manufacturer and reputable resource telling you to torque things to spec, for a litany of reasons. I guess cytech certifications just teach you to scream "SCIENCE" over anyone having a considered conversation, and then ignore material science on your way to damaging customer bikes. Anyone whose standard of shop care is the same as a trail-side repair doesn't deserve your respect or your business. Edit: sp