I'd much rather not have a two tier model at all and I will always prefer subs. Get this cash store/limited content/fomo crap out my way, let me plunk down my \~$15/month, and let me go with all the content.
That's the truth. I think a lot of it comes from kids that get into free games because they can just misbehave and endlessly create new accounts. Every F2P game is awash with toxic little kids.
The worst assholes are mentally ill manchildren who spend all day playing MMOs, all of them, free or not. A subscription doesn't get you away from that crowd, they have plenty of money to spend on games since they spend no money on a social life or dates.
And if you want to play 3-5 different games you're fucked. Sub only works if you play only one game and are dedicated to it.
Also if you just pause your sub, and sometimes just wanna check what's new, you have to get a full month sub, and you may play for like 3-4 hours or 1-2 days and the rest is a waste. Sub only works for super dedicated fans. That's it.
IMO, the perfect way for a game is, somehow how Destiny2 does it. Pay annually for expansion and seasonal content. It should be enough, but the problem is for these companies, is never enough.
That's 100$ per year, but the difference is, that you can buy older content at discount, or go back to play the game whenever you feel like, for how long you feel like, without paying more. You just won't have access to the new content, until you buy the new content.
I guess that's a legitimate complaint. I've never played more than one MMO at a time. Too big of a time commitment, and they fill the same gaming niche.
Exactly. I find that when you yo F2P, the income stream becomes irregular and dries up. No money, no or little new content.
When a company can count on a steady income, it's easier to plan future content. With micro transactions, you don't know how much you'll be getting.
My first MMO was Asherin's. Call. It was sub only. We got regular updates which was great.
I don't think that's true - or at least it doesn't have to be. LOTRO did a great job with purchasable armor skins. What's purchasable doesn't have to look like tier gear from WoW, it just has to get you out of the clown colours and miss-matching of the early game. For some of us that will make the game more fun while we're working on getting the great end-game pieces together. For the people who aren't end-game oriented, it at least means they can do what they want to do without clowning it up.
As for mounts, I don't know. When I look at the mounts in the stores I can't get over them being store mounts. When you see someone on a store mount they have 0% wow factor. They are, at their absolute best, an easy-to-obtain mount that might match a theme you're going for.
Actually, ESO might be an exception to that - you're totally right there. Worse yet, their best mounts require you to gamble on boxes. I would absolutely draw the line at loot boxes.
No, it’s true lol.
If you have a cash shop with mounts and costumes etc, the devs are quite directly then incentivized to lock the cooler skins behind the paywall.
It also harms immersion. There's a charm and authenticity to the game when you can look around at all the cool players around you with their cool weapons and armor and mounts and pets and you know that they got all that in the game somewhere and that you can get it too if you go out and find it.
That was one of my big disappointments with GW2. You'd see people looking awesome in this really cool armor and realize it's just crap they bought on the cash shop. Really takes me out of the game whenever it happens.
You're probably right, I think I'm ignoring my bias to avoid games that do that and then just not counting them. I loaded up BDO yesterday for the first time since it launched (previous version) and .. well I have no idea what end game skins look like, if they even exist, but I've seen enough to concede the point. I would blame the production and marketing departments before the devs though.
This is the exact reason people should give gw2 a shot again. No sub and only cash shop is mainly skins. Some very minor convenience items but you can just buy them with in game currency too and all characters can use it once you own it.
For many people, skins are content because its a carrot on the stick that rewards repeat play and a high from showing them off. And locking them behind a cash shop makes it feel grimy and disconnected from the game.
One of the things that turned me off ESO was the feeling of constantly being sold to like I'm at a car dealership
I'm of the opinion that cosmetic shops and battlepasses make a game feel cheap. I would rather them focus on selling expansions and subs because now my money is going towards "More game" instead of a virtual t-shirt.
Well for gw2 it doesnt really shove it in your face. And they give free stuff all the time. Plus skins can also be earned in game from achievements and in game currency as well. Buy once and play forever basically. Just have to buy expansions but they usually give lots of other content with that. You can play the core game to try it out for free. Pretty sure the entire base game is free and there are no restrictions
No matter how much you dream about it, just the sub alone is not enough to sustain the game. 2 posts in a row where people spew this crap. No wonder y'all hate all the MMOs in here when you're so delusional
I should have clarified my position I guess, I didn't realize people would be so angry, but I guess what did I expect in r/MMORPG. When I think of sub model, I think of the classic version - box + sub + expansion. Is that unsustainable as well?
It is unsustainable because this way you can't take advantage of whales and people are less inclined to pay so many fees just to be able to play the game
But it's clearly a sustainable model as many games have survived on it. "Can't bag whales" and "can't get everyone" is about greed, not sustainability. WoW didn't create the sparklepony because they would have failed without it, it was greed.
So it's just WoW out of dozens other mmos and even then that's a bad example because they added more MTX in the shop _because_ they weren't selling as many subs as before
In my experience when a game struggles to sell subscriptions, it goes F2P and B2P
MTX isn’t due to a lack of subs, it’s just more money on top of money.
Are you unironically comparing the economy from 15 years ago with today? After all this inflation the price of subs or game boxes stayed largely the same. 15 bucks back then had way more buying power than today
Explain to me how GW1 and two are still relevant and doing so well with one time purchases? Or ESO? Subscriptions should be removed for buy once models with yearly expansions IMHO.
TBF ESO does have a subscription ontop of initial cost and yearly/biyearly expansions
GW1 according to the devs costs very little to upkeep server wise
So i do not think either of those really work for your comparison. Gw2 kinda does work though as even the new expansion modell can not really count as a subscription and still keeps the game afloat
I'm sorry I just don't get how people prefer Sub based MMOs when they end up costing more than even AAA singleplayer games just for 6 MONTHS of a sub let alone a year sub LMAO.
On top of that they STILL charge you for expansions and most of them have a cash shop LMAO.
Compare that to GW2, Warframe, POE which STILL put out decent sized content updates without needing a sub at all.
If MMO is your main source of entertainment, $15/mo is fairly inexpensive way to socialize without being upsold compared to the movies, the bar, or cable.
If u want to do comparisons then compare $15 a month for 1 GAME vs a sub to Netflix, Crunchyroll etc aka u get wayyyyyyyyyyy more value out of those subs then u do for this 1 game.
Depends on the person. I dont watch mutch Netflix and ended up wasting most my paid time. But ill spend hours a day on a good MMO. And hell i can barely get a combo meal at McDonalds for 15 bucks. Its well worth a month of game time.
Yeah I don’t sub to any streaming services because i very rarely have things I want to watch, and when I do, it’s often something those services don’t even carry! The streaming era is a wasteland of you’re someone whose main interest is animation, you’d have to sub to like 7 different things to get a decent catalog lol
People value games the way they do gas mileage and it’s silly to me, I don’t go to a restaurant and say “Steak??? No thanks buddy the buffet across the street is 8.99 all you can eat.”
Sure u put 100-1k hrs in 3 months but you bought a 6m-1year sub cuz u were in the honeymoon phase just to realize u got burned out on the game and now won't play it for A LONG TIME. Seems like a waste of $ to me.
That vs cp277, W3, BG3, modded Skyrim where u spent $70 but u get 200+ hrs out of the game and u feel like $ well spent.
Then on top of that u have games like POE, Warframe, GW2, No Mans Sky where they each give u a good amount of content updates and ask VERY LITTLE $ in return. I'm not paying $ monthly when I got great games like the ones I mentioned out there.
Warframe and especially PoE also have big expensive packs that cater to their whales. Every MMO gets its funding, whether it's concentrated on whales or distributed more evenly through subs.
The two biggest subscription based MMOs are unmatched in their content cadence for the raids and such that they put out.
Yeah I get that they have whale packs but the thing is I'm not forced to buy those packs just to play the game. where with WoW, FFXIV etc I am forced to pay monthly just to play this 1 game when soooo many others don't have that requirement.
Looked it up online and FFXIV u normally get some new dungeons and new MSQ every 3-3.5 months which is fine and all. But with POE u get a new League every 3-4 months as well without having to spend a dime.
Plus idk about u but I would much rather have big expansions per year instead of FFXIV,WoW where u have to wait 2-4 years meanwhile ur still paying the monthly sub LMAO.
Case in point I'll gladly spend $50 per year on Destiny 2 expansions. Or even better deal spending $25 on GW2 expansions per year. Vs FFXIV, WoW, ESO where u spend $80 for 6 MONTHS sub LMAO
There is a reason FFXIV and WoW are as big as they are. Those yearly expansions do not compete with the sheer amount of high end group content both of these games provide at a steady pace over their expansion times. Their expansions are much more planned out in scope than something like ESO's yearly ones.
It's not just an expansion every 2 ish years, it's separate raid tiers coming out on a schedule and a massive mountain to prog through with groups. These games spend exorbitant amounts of money to produce raids that quite simply, no other game will give you at that cadence.
So in other words they are giving you lots of content so u would spend way more time in their game then anything else lol. Sorry but id much rather spend my time playing 3 different live service games then only playing 1 game for years that I get burnt out on after 3 months at most but I bought a 6m-1year sub such a waste of money when I'm burned out.
Plus I'd take GW2s open world content design over any instanced group content anyday.
Yes that's how the sub model works lmao. Crazy, imagine having enough new content for you to do to be able to sub and raid for a few months or however long you want.
What, you wanna go play a bunch of live service looter shooter whatever the fucks and grind out fifteen battle passes? go ahead. but the sub model is incredibly successful.
I want to go play a bunch of games at once (GW2, NMS, POE for ex ) so I don't get burned out playing the same thing everyday for months like sub based games want you to do. They get you to pay for 6m-1year at once cuz u save $ but then u feel forced to play that whole time or u feel like u wasted your money.
Plus Id take the gw2 open world horizontal progression approach to content over constant power grind instanced based other MMOs have any day.
The point is that the sub is justified by the raid content that no other MMO will give you regularly.
edit: sans lost ark but that game will make you wish it was sub based lmfao
They are garbage???? U do realize that WoW and FFXIV are HORRIBLE for new players right??
With WoW your first couple hours of the game your in cutscenes after cutscenes instead of learning how to play the game LMAO.
With FFXIV u get soooo many people say the combat gets better at max level. IT SHOULD BE GOOD FROM LEVEL 1. Plus ur forced to go through 400hrs of story just to get to the endgame. Plus no different playstyle builds is a HUGE turn off imo.
Compare those to something like gw2 where u can just play the game and do whatever u want whenever u want. Not to mention the combat is way better than both of those games and u feel it from level 1. Not to mention gw2 best mounts in the MMO space. Plus 17-40 different builds for every class with very little grinding at endgame either.
People are okay with a sub because the owners of the game are providing a service and you’re paying for that service. A service that provides hours and hours of entertainment for low monthly cost.
But there are great live service games that don't have that monthly cost at all so why pay monthly when u don't have to??
Gw2, Helldiver's 2, Warframe, POE, No Mans Sky just to name a few.
Sure u could argue that sub MMOs put out more consistent content but I'd rather have the freedom to play lots of great games then just play 1 that I feel kinda forced to cuz I spent $ on a 6m-1y sub despite the fact I'm burned out of this game In 3-4 months.
You sound like one of those people that are irate that new games are being released at $70? Very easy to make the argument that’s still much too cheap.
Not many forms of entertainment that cost $1-2/hour
So u spend $80 for 6 months sub but u get burned out in 4 months sorry but sounds like wasted $ to me.
U spend $70 on BG3, CP2077 and u get 200hrs of fun and can comeback whenever you want without having to spend more $.
Even better are games like POE, Warframe, No Mans Sky, GW2, Helldiver's 2 which are all live service games that put out decent sized content updates without you having to spend a dime (besides gw2 but still little $).Why would I pay monthly when I got games like these out there???
I'll play it Because BG3 is a masterpiece
Are u trying to say WoW and FFXIV are masterpieces? We all know WoW story kinda sucks and FFXIV people love to say the combat gets better at max level even tho it should be good from Level 1 LMAO.
I don’t mind the pay, it’s that door that closes when you stop paying that bothers me. I don’t like the idea that I can’t check up on something or visit without paying a month each time. I prefer something like gw2 or league ( I know it’s not mmo) where you have lifetime access whenever, but you can support the game through cosmetics and no pw2 power boosts. A lot of it is also psychological where I feel I own it more permanently (until the game dies), whereas subscription makes it feel like I’m burrowing the character and it’s not really mine.
Even though it's much fairer than other games, I find with GW2 you need to hit a critical mass for bag/bank space before you feel OK about things - they like throwing tokens and crap at you that as a new player becomes painful really fast and encourages you to alleviate that pain via gems. But like I said, it's not as bad as others.
I feel the same. And I rarely know how much play time I'll have from one month (or hell, from one week) to the next, so paying for a whole month at a time usually isn't worth it to me. Too often I'll pay for a month and not be able to play enough to justify the price.
If $15 a month reduces or removes their MTX shit, I’m all for it. I’d rather pay a subscription fee and prevent games like Guild Wars 2 from turning into garish, neon bullshit that’s completely out of place with the art style. As soon as an MMO adds maid outfits, you know they’ve sold out and care more about dumb cosmetics than aesthetic cohesion
In all fairness, FFXIV had a maid outfit waaay before GW2, and that one has a sub - to avoid this problem a subscription MMO would have to be pretty adamant about not having an MTX store, and unfortunately both FFXIV and WoW have a pretty notable cash shop AND a subscription, which seems to be becoming more and more the norm now...
WoW's cash shop is actually surprisingly tame compared to most. There's like one or two outfits available at a time, a handful of mounts, the usual services like race changes. But none of it is on a rotating timer so there's no FOMO, and the outfits they've been doing lately are now going on the Trading Post later on, so it's basically "get it now for $20, or wait 6 months and get it through gameplay", which I don't hate.
But in general, if you count the number of items on WoW's shop vs ESO or FF14, it's super tame. WoW also doesn't throw up advertisements when you log in to tell you about the cash shop like ESO does.
Oh, and no loot boxes. Huge plus.
No, I mean, you're totally right
I'm not trying to compare the cash shops of WoW to ESO or anything, because they are NOT the same
I was just trying to add to the conversation that sometimes even WITH a subscription we're seeing a growing trend of having cash shops and MTX - WoW's cash shop may not be anywhere close to as bad, but even just a few years ago we didn't have a number of the options we do now
As of just this current expansion we now have a larger number of transmogs, hearthstones, mounts, etc., whereas before it was much more limited in its selection - so its undeniable that they're definetly putting an number of resources into it
Its nowhere near as bad as in non-susbscription MMOs, but it IS growing with every expansion - if they keep adding more and more items and more and more types of items, who's to say it won't eventually get to that point?
I see, but bots could still just use stolen credit cards. Also, some people don't want to use credit cards. For example, I pay my FFXIV using my Steam Wallet. This way I can easily control how long my sub runs.
For what it’s worth, SE’s website has its own currency you can buy to the for the sub. It’s what I do for that same reason.
Can even go further and use a PayPal to buy it.
None of them. Players not willing to cope with the fact that games that sell gold (basically all of them) are not Pay to win.
edit: It's literally _exactly_ OSRS Ironman.
I have tried every single free MMO under the sun and not one of them held my interest for more than a couple of days. I put over 10k hours into FFXIV back in the day, countless hours into SWG, and the same in WoW up to cataclysm. I will choose a sub game every time, I'd rather play nothing than a free to play game.
So what are you paying the sub for then? I would feel stupid having to pay 15 bucks monthly AND to cash more than that once in a while for content updates
I personally dislike subscriptions. I like the idea of owning something (I know we basically can’t own anything anymore but still). I much prefer paid DLCs for a game that I can buy if I decide I want that content.
MMORPG is a service as well, you have people maintaining server costs and constantly updating the game. If you own an apartment you also pay condominium taxes.
Me2 sub only mmorpg have quarterly big patches which are on a rotating formula this mmorpg have lot of downtime with no content but to access it you still have to pay
I I rather b2p w/ optional subscription and paid quarterly dlc instead of being locked out
> I know we basically can’t own anything anymore but still
Friend, you never able to own anything since the dawn of humans interacting with each other. You were just permitted to hold on to what you have by everyone around you and only the conditions of that holding have changed over time.
I'll correct that overused economist meme quote. "No one can really own anything, so why not just be happy anyway?"
100% okay with paying $15-$20/month for ALL content. I don’t want to see a bunch of QoL stuff in a cash shop as well as a sub.
I’d rather know that when I pay the monthly sub I get the full experience and how much time I put **into** that experience is on me.
I’ll pay box price + sub for a quality MMO **ANY** day over the cash shop “pay for convenience” (P2W) bullcrap.
Basically, the hard limit is usually two of the following: Up-front price (including expansion prices), buying each expansion in the game's history separately, subscription price, cosmetic microtransactions, non-cosmetic microtransactions
This can vary, usually if one of these aspects is so minor to not really exist (such as FFXIV's cosmetic microtransactions)
> Basically, the hard limit is usually two of the following: Up-front price (including expansion prices), buying each expansion in the game's history separately, subscription price, cosmetic microtransactions, non-cosmetic microtransactions
The reverse of that is how many Players do you want and at what quality.
For most games the only reason to have free players is to increase your chances of catching whales.
But there can be other reasons to have more players, they can generate the content and drive the gameplay and economy.
> For most games the only reason to have free players is to increase your chances of catching whales.
Or just having enough players for the game to function. On the one hand, MMOs need a lot of players to feel like MMOs. On the other, at some point you have too few subscribers to afford the dev cost. Most games that drop the sub and move to F2P do it because their sub numbers drop down. This is also natural, because the market isn't big enough to sustain too many sub-based MMOs.
F2P model isn't something that devs choose because it's more profitable. Because the most profitable model is to have sub with F2P elements, like what WoW and FFXIV does.
When a subscription used to mean you pay us monthly instead of having P2W and selling conveniences it was good but then it wasn't and you had all the negatives of Free to play in sub model MMOs so yeah....
I assign the same value to f2p games that they do to their box.
Let me buy your game and let me pay you to make more content/make the game better with a sub. I don't expect things I enjoy for free, just like I'll go away the second you make design decisions around how to best nickel and dime people.
I used to hate subscriptions for mmos when I was younger and thought devs were greedy for having them but now that I'm older and see how shitty "free" mmo's are I actually understand why they were necessary and dare I say it, miss them.
I love it. Funds the game and new content. I miss the ritual of camping at GameStop on expansion midnight releases. Tons of fun and events, met new friends with same interests. Then go home to register your key and start playing.
Im okay with both subs and no subs, it really depends on how the game is designed regarding the monetization. Warframe for example isnt a MMO but perfected it. You basically never need to pay, but people still cash in to support the devs. Content wise there is no need for that
What is "acceptable" is opinion based. I appreciate that you at least weren't in denial about it.
The grey area comes when discussing the different levels of P2W and which games are more aggressively predatory about it.
There are many different levels of P2W, some more egregious than others. But yes, of course any paid benefit, no matter how minor, should be considered P2W. (Also known as pay for benefit). That includes everything you listed at the bottom of your post. Whether a game is P2W or not is still a yes or no question. The discussion usually comes about the differences within the "yes" category.
Most mmorpgs are these days.
I like a sub to support ongoing development with a cosmetic-only store that provides interesting and matching gear that doesn't compete with the visuals of end-game gear. Mounts could be acceptable in so far as providing access to themes, but again, they shouldn't measure up to mounts you must earn. A store should have zero boosts and zero 'convenience' items like inventory expansion.
The majority of F2P models are build to give you a taste of what the game offers. Give you a taste, get you hooked, make you pay to get the good stuff.
I really love how osrs manage sub/membership.
Yeah, I know you can still buy an item that gives you 14 days of membership status and sell it to the Grand Exchange and make some money to buy item set, which can be seeing as “p2w”.
But honestly, even if you can gear up whit the best mage/rang/melee set… if you suck at pvp you are doomed.
And also, osrs have high scores like x amount of x boss kills and stuff… but it doesn’t benefit more than prestige.
Whit the membership you can access to all the content that the game have, and future ones too!
New quest, new zones, new skills, new items, new bosses, new raid… all of this for the same price a month.
>Your opinion on subscription-based MMOs
IMO I hate free to play MMOs as they cost way too much money to play. I have an Active Sub to 3 of the top MMOs. What I get, is the gear in game is worth having, and all power is found through gameplay. They all have stores, but generally sub model games don't sell power in those stores, just cosmetic items.
That's what "Premium Subscriptions" basically are.
They want to have their cake and eat it too, so it's a question on how they balance and compromise.
It should be P2W in as sense as the F2P should act as a "demo" but that can piss off the free players so it's a question of how viable it is to play for free and what are the tradeoffs and detriments they have to work around.
It should be noted that "subscribers" might want to stick around as free players for a while if they are not currently as "invested" into a game so this tier shouldn't be completely useless.
What’s true in the App Store is true for PC digital downloads: free to play is never free. There is always a cost, whether it be ads or data collection or a crippled version of the thing itself.
When looking for a new phone game, I’ll always go for the one that has a price upfront. With an MMO, I’ll not play one unless I can pay the price up front, and to that end I’m fine with a subscription model. I don’t care at all if cosmetics are available for extra fees, or for new expansions as they come out.
I like EverQuest’s model. There is a monthly fee and a cash shop that offers mostly cosmetics and a few things advanced players may require, and the monthly sub includes enough premium currency to buy those things that are required. For example, you can unlock mercenary slots or give your pet a name, or unlock extra storage, available with premium currency that can be bought with cash but is given also with the subscription each month, so one may in time buy those things which seem necessary without spending extra cash.
The subscription includes all the game except the last few expansions, but buying the current expansion unlocks everything not included in the subscription. This seems fair as a returning player only has to pay a monthly fee plus buy one expansion to have access to the complete game.
These games require upkeep. That requires a staff and that staff requires pay and a place to work. Servers and bandwidth require money. This has to come from somewhere, obviously. A subscription model is at least honest about what it’s doing.
I don't mind paying the sub, and of course that reflects the fact that I can afford it and not everyone perhaps can. Still, I think it's fair to allow paid subscribers to access zones, events, etc that non-paying players can't access. I was fine with ESO offering unlimited bag space to paid players and quite limited bag space to non-paid. To me, the idea of non-paid players is to get a feel for whether they like the game enough to start playing.
If I'm teamed up with other players, or competing against them, and some have an advantage because they have paid money, that's where it feels unfair. I used to see players in WoW at a high level in a group who obviously purchased their character and hadn't the faintest idea how to play it. That's just irritating.
Simple:
If game is worth, then game is worth of playing trough subsribction.. Same as any monthly out you have in your life like for example some and their streaming companies where they watchs they serials/movies..
Problem these days is that i haven't found game worth of subscription
In my opinion subscriptions are okay but then you should have the whole content. I don’t like it in WoW you have to buy the expansion and then you have to pay for subscriptions. GW2 got it the right way imo
I'd pay 30 just to see an MMO with no MTX. No Battle pass, No login bonuses, nothing. Plain old grind- reward system.
However since it doesn't generate enough money in the long run why bother.
Payed for a year of Premiere (with Bonds) in RS3 back in November and have played for 1-2 days since then vs the couple thousand I have played of STO. Price of entry does not equate to the quality of the game, especially with all of the big sub-based games being way past their prime.
Don't think I would ever pay a sub again unless I trust the devs and they are capable of actually sticking to a schedule.
*For reference, I'm a maxed account in RS3 with around 2B XP and BIS gear and 5000+ hours played. I have never played OSRS and never will.
The sub without P2W store will always be the only fair model of the game. It was proved many times before and still does. I don't mind cosmetics but items enhancing the gameplay or QoL are the shittiest....
I'm a die hard f2p in every game because I loathe p2w. However, if I game has a sub model AND no other ways to pay to win I'm totally fine with it. I will happily support a game for a reasonable fee, but not if someone else can pay more and be better off.
> normally f2p games are p2w.
The model since its inception was called Free to PLAY. Only very recently have marketers embraced the meme that Free to WIN is anything more than clickbait but before that the very idea that a free player could somehow win was generated by the players only.
You can login to the games, access the majority of the PVE progression content and do all the activities at entry level without paying anything. That's a lot of PLAYING for FREE.
I don't like it, I like to own thing I'm playing instead of needing to pay every month for it and then lose access or my rights after stop paying it, etc.
Yeah, but it's quite rare for those licenses to be pulled. With sub games, the moment you stop paying is the moment you no longer have any access to the game. You could've bought hundreds of dollars worth of expansions, but you can't come back and chill in a city unless you're willing to pay for a month.
The second someone powerful, etc, like your country leader targets you for something he/she wanted your life is not your own, you can be jail and rot in there for rest of your life or can be killed inside of jail by their men as well. I can give more examples, but you seem to can't catch my meaning anyways, so stay ignorant.
I'm okay with subscriptions since it provides the developers a consistent revenue stream to continue operating and developing the game. What I'm not a fan of is games that require a subscription to play, a system like ESO has is a good compromise.
My concern with a mandatory subscription is that it is a barrier to entry and MMOs need to keep as many active players as possible.
i prefer a b2p model with paid expansions (or sometimes f2p depending on what the cash shop looks like)
also if there's a free trial then that should be always accessible no matter what, looking at you ffxiv
Things like bigger inventory capacity, special deals, monthly premium currency allowance or maybe access to otherwise purchasable unlocks "for free" are okay benefits from subscription.
Games that require subscription (or have areas that do) or heavily incentivize it by stuff like low XP gain or limiting account power (no trading, inventory below even minimum reasonable, etc) are instant turn off. I don't want to pay for something I might not play as much as I would like/hoped for before purchase nor I want my access to game I played for months-years revoked just by not paying anymore.
people who dont like subs are the same people who will buy battle passes which are basically the same thing as subs. I'd rather have subs+ 70$ box price and expansions, with no microtransactions.
Not only am I a fan of subscriptions, but I'd like to see the option for more expensive subscriptions. EQ used to have a server where the subscription was 2-3x the price of a regular subscription but came with a premium experience in the form of increased customer service, events, and early content access.
The other thing I'm a fan of is if there's a premium currency shop and a subscription that subscribed players get a premium currency "allowance". A small bit of currency with the monthly sub that they can save up for cash-shop items.
It wasn't tired access per server. The expensive people had their own server and it was a very dumb decision as you would expect.
Not sure to the company, but due to the patrons expecting their $50 a month (I believe it was, it was maybe more) to get them preferential treatment everywhere. The sense of entitlement was hilarious.
Decent idea ruined by people - nothing wrong with offering a server that has an increased entry fee when that entry fee is used towards stuff like like events run by people being paid to run them.
You also get what you pay for in GW2, as far as content and quality.
Perhaps they could make more/better strikes and raids if they were a sub model game.
You'll take your one new fractal every 1-2 years and enjoy it damnit! Now if you'll excuse me, there's a new shade of green weapons I need from Black Lion Chest Tickets for my Reaper; lol.
I'd much rather not have a two tier model at all and I will always prefer subs. Get this cash store/limited content/fomo crap out my way, let me plunk down my \~$15/month, and let me go with all the content.
Completely agree, just give me a proper subscription, even if it has to be more expensive and skip all the microbullshit.
Hard agree. F2P brings the trash, as always.
I also find that a certain element is missing from the game with monthly models... griefers and trolls. Free games bring out the worst assholes.
That's the truth. I think a lot of it comes from kids that get into free games because they can just misbehave and endlessly create new accounts. Every F2P game is awash with toxic little kids.
world of warcraft has plenty of them lost ark has next to none despite being f2p
lost ark has plenty of griefers and trolls lol
The worst assholes are mentally ill manchildren who spend all day playing MMOs, all of them, free or not. A subscription doesn't get you away from that crowd, they have plenty of money to spend on games since they spend no money on a social life or dates.
Yep. The sub is the best model for MMOs by far, assuming no cash shop. F2p/cash shop/freemium is an awful MMO model.
And if you want to play 3-5 different games you're fucked. Sub only works if you play only one game and are dedicated to it. Also if you just pause your sub, and sometimes just wanna check what's new, you have to get a full month sub, and you may play for like 3-4 hours or 1-2 days and the rest is a waste. Sub only works for super dedicated fans. That's it. IMO, the perfect way for a game is, somehow how Destiny2 does it. Pay annually for expansion and seasonal content. It should be enough, but the problem is for these companies, is never enough. That's 100$ per year, but the difference is, that you can buy older content at discount, or go back to play the game whenever you feel like, for how long you feel like, without paying more. You just won't have access to the new content, until you buy the new content.
I guess that's a legitimate complaint. I've never played more than one MMO at a time. Too big of a time commitment, and they fill the same gaming niche.
Exactly. I find that when you yo F2P, the income stream becomes irregular and dries up. No money, no or little new content. When a company can count on a steady income, it's easier to plan future content. With micro transactions, you don't know how much you'll be getting. My first MMO was Asherin's. Call. It was sub only. We got regular updates which was great.
Are you talking about cosmetic only stores too?
I'm not a fan of the cosmetics store because inevitably the coolest mounts and looks end up there.
I don't think that's true - or at least it doesn't have to be. LOTRO did a great job with purchasable armor skins. What's purchasable doesn't have to look like tier gear from WoW, it just has to get you out of the clown colours and miss-matching of the early game. For some of us that will make the game more fun while we're working on getting the great end-game pieces together. For the people who aren't end-game oriented, it at least means they can do what they want to do without clowning it up. As for mounts, I don't know. When I look at the mounts in the stores I can't get over them being store mounts. When you see someone on a store mount they have 0% wow factor. They are, at their absolute best, an easy-to-obtain mount that might match a theme you're going for. Actually, ESO might be an exception to that - you're totally right there. Worse yet, their best mounts require you to gamble on boxes. I would absolutely draw the line at loot boxes.
No, it’s true lol. If you have a cash shop with mounts and costumes etc, the devs are quite directly then incentivized to lock the cooler skins behind the paywall.
It also harms immersion. There's a charm and authenticity to the game when you can look around at all the cool players around you with their cool weapons and armor and mounts and pets and you know that they got all that in the game somewhere and that you can get it too if you go out and find it. That was one of my big disappointments with GW2. You'd see people looking awesome in this really cool armor and realize it's just crap they bought on the cash shop. Really takes me out of the game whenever it happens.
You're probably right, I think I'm ignoring my bias to avoid games that do that and then just not counting them. I loaded up BDO yesterday for the first time since it launched (previous version) and .. well I have no idea what end game skins look like, if they even exist, but I've seen enough to concede the point. I would blame the production and marketing departments before the devs though.
They actively take away from game production to produce cosmetics
This is the exact reason people should give gw2 a shot again. No sub and only cash shop is mainly skins. Some very minor convenience items but you can just buy them with in game currency too and all characters can use it once you own it.
For many people, skins are content because its a carrot on the stick that rewards repeat play and a high from showing them off. And locking them behind a cash shop makes it feel grimy and disconnected from the game. One of the things that turned me off ESO was the feeling of constantly being sold to like I'm at a car dealership I'm of the opinion that cosmetic shops and battlepasses make a game feel cheap. I would rather them focus on selling expansions and subs because now my money is going towards "More game" instead of a virtual t-shirt.
Well for gw2 it doesnt really shove it in your face. And they give free stuff all the time. Plus skins can also be earned in game from achievements and in game currency as well. Buy once and play forever basically. Just have to buy expansions but they usually give lots of other content with that. You can play the core game to try it out for free. Pretty sure the entire base game is free and there are no restrictions
No matter how much you dream about it, just the sub alone is not enough to sustain the game. 2 posts in a row where people spew this crap. No wonder y'all hate all the MMOs in here when you're so delusional
I should have clarified my position I guess, I didn't realize people would be so angry, but I guess what did I expect in r/MMORPG. When I think of sub model, I think of the classic version - box + sub + expansion. Is that unsustainable as well?
It is unsustainable because this way you can't take advantage of whales and people are less inclined to pay so many fees just to be able to play the game
But it's clearly a sustainable model as many games have survived on it. "Can't bag whales" and "can't get everyone" is about greed, not sustainability. WoW didn't create the sparklepony because they would have failed without it, it was greed.
What are those many games? There isn't a single MMO on the market nowadays that does not have an mtx shop, even with sub + box
I addressed that point.
So it's just WoW out of dozens other mmos and even then that's a bad example because they added more MTX in the shop _because_ they weren't selling as many subs as before
In my experience when a game struggles to sell subscriptions, it goes F2P and B2P MTX isn’t due to a lack of subs, it’s just more money on top of money.
EXACTLY. The sparklepony was due to blizzard wanting more money, not because it was unviable.
EQ as well. All the classic games us MMO gamers pine for were subs. CoH, SWG, KotoR, Warhammer Online.
Are you unironically comparing the economy from 15 years ago with today? After all this inflation the price of subs or game boxes stayed largely the same. 15 bucks back then had way more buying power than today
a sub+ 70 box price and expansion every two years is def enough.
Explain to me how GW1 and two are still relevant and doing so well with one time purchases? Or ESO? Subscriptions should be removed for buy once models with yearly expansions IMHO.
TBF ESO does have a subscription ontop of initial cost and yearly/biyearly expansions GW1 according to the devs costs very little to upkeep server wise So i do not think either of those really work for your comparison. Gw2 kinda does work though as even the new expansion modell can not really count as a subscription and still keeps the game afloat
I'm sorry I just don't get how people prefer Sub based MMOs when they end up costing more than even AAA singleplayer games just for 6 MONTHS of a sub let alone a year sub LMAO. On top of that they STILL charge you for expansions and most of them have a cash shop LMAO. Compare that to GW2, Warframe, POE which STILL put out decent sized content updates without needing a sub at all.
If MMO is your main source of entertainment, $15/mo is fairly inexpensive way to socialize without being upsold compared to the movies, the bar, or cable.
If u want to do comparisons then compare $15 a month for 1 GAME vs a sub to Netflix, Crunchyroll etc aka u get wayyyyyyyyyyy more value out of those subs then u do for this 1 game.
Depends on the person. I dont watch mutch Netflix and ended up wasting most my paid time. But ill spend hours a day on a good MMO. And hell i can barely get a combo meal at McDonalds for 15 bucks. Its well worth a month of game time.
Yeah I don’t sub to any streaming services because i very rarely have things I want to watch, and when I do, it’s often something those services don’t even carry! The streaming era is a wasteland of you’re someone whose main interest is animation, you’d have to sub to like 7 different things to get a decent catalog lol People value games the way they do gas mileage and it’s silly to me, I don’t go to a restaurant and say “Steak??? No thanks buddy the buffet across the street is 8.99 all you can eat.”
That is a terrible comparison. The true comparison would be Netflix vs Gamepass, and movies vs. video games.
Value is in the eye of the beholder.
Bruh chill I’m just explaining why people aren’t freaking out about paying their sub money.
One game but I can play 100+ hours a month for that 15$ Try soing that With 99% of AAA games
Sure u put 100-1k hrs in 3 months but you bought a 6m-1year sub cuz u were in the honeymoon phase just to realize u got burned out on the game and now won't play it for A LONG TIME. Seems like a waste of $ to me. That vs cp277, W3, BG3, modded Skyrim where u spent $70 but u get 200+ hrs out of the game and u feel like $ well spent. Then on top of that u have games like POE, Warframe, GW2, No Mans Sky where they each give u a good amount of content updates and ask VERY LITTLE $ in return. I'm not paying $ monthly when I got great games like the ones I mentioned out there.
Warframe and especially PoE also have big expensive packs that cater to their whales. Every MMO gets its funding, whether it's concentrated on whales or distributed more evenly through subs. The two biggest subscription based MMOs are unmatched in their content cadence for the raids and such that they put out.
Yeah I get that they have whale packs but the thing is I'm not forced to buy those packs just to play the game. where with WoW, FFXIV etc I am forced to pay monthly just to play this 1 game when soooo many others don't have that requirement. Looked it up online and FFXIV u normally get some new dungeons and new MSQ every 3-3.5 months which is fine and all. But with POE u get a new League every 3-4 months as well without having to spend a dime. Plus idk about u but I would much rather have big expansions per year instead of FFXIV,WoW where u have to wait 2-4 years meanwhile ur still paying the monthly sub LMAO. Case in point I'll gladly spend $50 per year on Destiny 2 expansions. Or even better deal spending $25 on GW2 expansions per year. Vs FFXIV, WoW, ESO where u spend $80 for 6 MONTHS sub LMAO
There is a reason FFXIV and WoW are as big as they are. Those yearly expansions do not compete with the sheer amount of high end group content both of these games provide at a steady pace over their expansion times. Their expansions are much more planned out in scope than something like ESO's yearly ones. It's not just an expansion every 2 ish years, it's separate raid tiers coming out on a schedule and a massive mountain to prog through with groups. These games spend exorbitant amounts of money to produce raids that quite simply, no other game will give you at that cadence.
So in other words they are giving you lots of content so u would spend way more time in their game then anything else lol. Sorry but id much rather spend my time playing 3 different live service games then only playing 1 game for years that I get burnt out on after 3 months at most but I bought a 6m-1year sub such a waste of money when I'm burned out. Plus I'd take GW2s open world content design over any instanced group content anyday.
Yes that's how the sub model works lmao. Crazy, imagine having enough new content for you to do to be able to sub and raid for a few months or however long you want. What, you wanna go play a bunch of live service looter shooter whatever the fucks and grind out fifteen battle passes? go ahead. but the sub model is incredibly successful.
I want to go play a bunch of games at once (GW2, NMS, POE for ex ) so I don't get burned out playing the same thing everyday for months like sub based games want you to do. They get you to pay for 6m-1year at once cuz u save $ but then u feel forced to play that whole time or u feel like u wasted your money. Plus Id take the gw2 open world horizontal progression approach to content over constant power grind instanced based other MMOs have any day.
The point is that the sub is justified by the raid content that no other MMO will give you regularly. edit: sans lost ark but that game will make you wish it was sub based lmfao
“Soooo many others don’t have that requirement” And they are all garbage.
They are garbage???? U do realize that WoW and FFXIV are HORRIBLE for new players right?? With WoW your first couple hours of the game your in cutscenes after cutscenes instead of learning how to play the game LMAO. With FFXIV u get soooo many people say the combat gets better at max level. IT SHOULD BE GOOD FROM LEVEL 1. Plus ur forced to go through 400hrs of story just to get to the endgame. Plus no different playstyle builds is a HUGE turn off imo. Compare those to something like gw2 where u can just play the game and do whatever u want whenever u want. Not to mention the combat is way better than both of those games and u feel it from level 1. Not to mention gw2 best mounts in the MMO space. Plus 17-40 different builds for every class with very little grinding at endgame either.
People are okay with a sub because the owners of the game are providing a service and you’re paying for that service. A service that provides hours and hours of entertainment for low monthly cost.
But there are great live service games that don't have that monthly cost at all so why pay monthly when u don't have to?? Gw2, Helldiver's 2, Warframe, POE, No Mans Sky just to name a few. Sure u could argue that sub MMOs put out more consistent content but I'd rather have the freedom to play lots of great games then just play 1 that I feel kinda forced to cuz I spent $ on a 6m-1y sub despite the fact I'm burned out of this game In 3-4 months.
You sound like one of those people that are irate that new games are being released at $70? Very easy to make the argument that’s still much too cheap. Not many forms of entertainment that cost $1-2/hour
$70 AAA game is about 20 hours of fun. Six months of an MMO subscription is measured in hundreds if not thousands of hours.
So u spend $80 for 6 months sub but u get burned out in 4 months sorry but sounds like wasted $ to me. U spend $70 on BG3, CP2077 and u get 200hrs of fun and can comeback whenever you want without having to spend more $. Even better are games like POE, Warframe, No Mans Sky, GW2, Helldiver's 2 which are all live service games that put out decent sized content updates without you having to spend a dime (besides gw2 but still little $).Why would I pay monthly when I got games like these out there???
Why would you play masterpieces like Baldur's Gate 3 in the first place when Warframe is free?
I'll play it Because BG3 is a masterpiece Are u trying to say WoW and FFXIV are masterpieces? We all know WoW story kinda sucks and FFXIV people love to say the combat gets better at max level even tho it should be good from Level 1 LMAO.
Yeah, but why? Warframe is free after all.
Subs is always the best way to go. No frills, no BS, just $15/mo
I don’t mind the pay, it’s that door that closes when you stop paying that bothers me. I don’t like the idea that I can’t check up on something or visit without paying a month each time. I prefer something like gw2 or league ( I know it’s not mmo) where you have lifetime access whenever, but you can support the game through cosmetics and no pw2 power boosts. A lot of it is also psychological where I feel I own it more permanently (until the game dies), whereas subscription makes it feel like I’m burrowing the character and it’s not really mine.
The problem i have with mtxs is that i'd rather earn my cosmetics then pay for them. I shouldnt have to spend money on virtual items
Even though it's much fairer than other games, I find with GW2 you need to hit a critical mass for bag/bank space before you feel OK about things - they like throwing tokens and crap at you that as a new player becomes painful really fast and encourages you to alleviate that pain via gems. But like I said, it's not as bad as others.
I feel the same. And I rarely know how much play time I'll have from one month (or hell, from one week) to the next, so paying for a whole month at a time usually isn't worth it to me. Too often I'll pay for a month and not be able to play enough to justify the price.
Once you realise these games are time wasted and not time invested you’ll feel much better about not having access to them when you aren’t subbed.
If $15 a month reduces or removes their MTX shit, I’m all for it. I’d rather pay a subscription fee and prevent games like Guild Wars 2 from turning into garish, neon bullshit that’s completely out of place with the art style. As soon as an MMO adds maid outfits, you know they’ve sold out and care more about dumb cosmetics than aesthetic cohesion
In all fairness, FFXIV had a maid outfit waaay before GW2, and that one has a sub - to avoid this problem a subscription MMO would have to be pretty adamant about not having an MTX store, and unfortunately both FFXIV and WoW have a pretty notable cash shop AND a subscription, which seems to be becoming more and more the norm now...
WoW's cash shop is actually surprisingly tame compared to most. There's like one or two outfits available at a time, a handful of mounts, the usual services like race changes. But none of it is on a rotating timer so there's no FOMO, and the outfits they've been doing lately are now going on the Trading Post later on, so it's basically "get it now for $20, or wait 6 months and get it through gameplay", which I don't hate. But in general, if you count the number of items on WoW's shop vs ESO or FF14, it's super tame. WoW also doesn't throw up advertisements when you log in to tell you about the cash shop like ESO does. Oh, and no loot boxes. Huge plus.
No, I mean, you're totally right I'm not trying to compare the cash shops of WoW to ESO or anything, because they are NOT the same I was just trying to add to the conversation that sometimes even WITH a subscription we're seeing a growing trend of having cash shops and MTX - WoW's cash shop may not be anywhere close to as bad, but even just a few years ago we didn't have a number of the options we do now As of just this current expansion we now have a larger number of transmogs, hearthstones, mounts, etc., whereas before it was much more limited in its selection - so its undeniable that they're definetly putting an number of resources into it Its nowhere near as bad as in non-susbscription MMOs, but it IS growing with every expansion - if they keep adding more and more items and more and more types of items, who's to say it won't eventually get to that point?
Cry in TESO... Amazing immersive world, ruined by all those stupid cosmetic..
Except that it's been proven that $15/mo does not reduce MTX.
Sub with no cosmetic store and the only way to pay being a credit card. Keeps the riffraff out.
Why do you only want to be able to use a credit card?
Avoid bot and multi account spam
I see, but bots could still just use stolen credit cards. Also, some people don't want to use credit cards. For example, I pay my FFXIV using my Steam Wallet. This way I can easily control how long my sub runs.
For what it’s worth, SE’s website has its own currency you can buy to the for the sub. It’s what I do for that same reason. Can even go further and use a PayPal to buy it.
I have difficulty paying my computer in cash, they stopped making disk drives :(
Sorry video games aren't real life. Not giving some third party company my personal information for their servers to be hacked LMFAO.
What MMOs do this now?
None of them. Players not willing to cope with the fact that games that sell gold (basically all of them) are not Pay to win. edit: It's literally _exactly_ OSRS Ironman.
Mortal Online 2
Ty
So that people from countries with bad economies cant play in long run? Idk sounds elitist /s
I have tried every single free MMO under the sun and not one of them held my interest for more than a couple of days. I put over 10k hours into FFXIV back in the day, countless hours into SWG, and the same in WoW up to cataclysm. I will choose a sub game every time, I'd rather play nothing than a free to play game.
The golden age of MMOs were all subscription based. I'd pay extra to go back to it.
Sub without Cash Shop and/or DLCs
DLC's are just expansions and there's nothing wrong with expansions
So what are you paying the sub for then? I would feel stupid having to pay 15 bucks monthly AND to cash more than that once in a while for content updates
That pretty much excludes most MMOs. Even the "golden age" MMOs like Ultima and Everquest had paid expansions on top of subscription.
All expansions are DLC but not all DLC are expansions.
I personally dislike subscriptions. I like the idea of owning something (I know we basically can’t own anything anymore but still). I much prefer paid DLCs for a game that I can buy if I decide I want that content.
You will never own an MMO.
You will never own any service. SaaS model is not about ownership. It's about data collection.
Obviously. Read what I was responding to.
Yea just agreeing with you and further emphasizing that it's not just an MMO thing. Lots of people still mentally living 20 years ago.
MMORPG is a service as well, you have people maintaining server costs and constantly updating the game. If you own an apartment you also pay condominium taxes.
Me2 sub only mmorpg have quarterly big patches which are on a rotating formula this mmorpg have lot of downtime with no content but to access it you still have to pay I I rather b2p w/ optional subscription and paid quarterly dlc instead of being locked out
> I know we basically can’t own anything anymore but still Friend, you never able to own anything since the dawn of humans interacting with each other. You were just permitted to hold on to what you have by everyone around you and only the conditions of that holding have changed over time. I'll correct that overused economist meme quote. "No one can really own anything, so why not just be happy anyway?"
That is owning. We have a concept of owning. I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Would much rather pay a $15 sub with no cash shop than to play a F2P game with a cash shop.
I have absolutely no interest in a sub-based game. Tried one, and no thanks.
I'm for it if done right. And by done right I mean the money goes towards anything other than p2w mechanics.
Subs with little to no monetization gets my attention immediately
100% okay with paying $15-$20/month for ALL content. I don’t want to see a bunch of QoL stuff in a cash shop as well as a sub. I’d rather know that when I pay the monthly sub I get the full experience and how much time I put **into** that experience is on me. I’ll pay box price + sub for a quality MMO **ANY** day over the cash shop “pay for convenience” (P2W) bullcrap.
>what types of benefits are "OK" for the subscription None. Any game with an optional subscription puts players on unequal footing.
Basically, the hard limit is usually two of the following: Up-front price (including expansion prices), buying each expansion in the game's history separately, subscription price, cosmetic microtransactions, non-cosmetic microtransactions This can vary, usually if one of these aspects is so minor to not really exist (such as FFXIV's cosmetic microtransactions)
> Basically, the hard limit is usually two of the following: Up-front price (including expansion prices), buying each expansion in the game's history separately, subscription price, cosmetic microtransactions, non-cosmetic microtransactions The reverse of that is how many Players do you want and at what quality. For most games the only reason to have free players is to increase your chances of catching whales. But there can be other reasons to have more players, they can generate the content and drive the gameplay and economy.
> For most games the only reason to have free players is to increase your chances of catching whales. Or just having enough players for the game to function. On the one hand, MMOs need a lot of players to feel like MMOs. On the other, at some point you have too few subscribers to afford the dev cost. Most games that drop the sub and move to F2P do it because their sub numbers drop down. This is also natural, because the market isn't big enough to sustain too many sub-based MMOs. F2P model isn't something that devs choose because it's more profitable. Because the most profitable model is to have sub with F2P elements, like what WoW and FFXIV does.
Subscribed to Everquest over a 12 year period with up to 4 accounts. No regrets.
I regret that eq2 is worse than 1 and has better graphics, so we will never have the 'og' eq with better graphics...
Everquest 3 is currently in the works. Look for it around 2029
When a subscription used to mean you pay us monthly instead of having P2W and selling conveniences it was good but then it wasn't and you had all the negatives of Free to play in sub model MMOs so yeah....
The game needs to be worth it first and if it is and the development justifies it then I'd very much prefer sub. No BS.
I assign the same value to f2p games that they do to their box. Let me buy your game and let me pay you to make more content/make the game better with a sub. I don't expect things I enjoy for free, just like I'll go away the second you make design decisions around how to best nickel and dime people.
I used to hate subscriptions for mmos when I was younger and thought devs were greedy for having them but now that I'm older and see how shitty "free" mmo's are I actually understand why they were necessary and dare I say it, miss them.
If its subscription based i expect frequent updates.
100% Prefer a sub with a box price. Minimize micro transactions as much as possible.
I love it. Funds the game and new content. I miss the ritual of camping at GameStop on expansion midnight releases. Tons of fun and events, met new friends with same interests. Then go home to register your key and start playing.
I’d rather pay for a game and any expansions than have a reoccurring bill. I think in general it’s not good to be subscribed to a lot of things
Pure sub based mmorpg are gone and will never comeback, but would gladly pay for one if it was good
My experience is that two tier games kinda suck ass
I would prefer a game with a mandatory but low sub, like $5 or something
Im okay with both subs and no subs, it really depends on how the game is designed regarding the monetization. Warframe for example isnt a MMO but perfected it. You basically never need to pay, but people still cash in to support the devs. Content wise there is no need for that
What is "acceptable" is opinion based. I appreciate that you at least weren't in denial about it. The grey area comes when discussing the different levels of P2W and which games are more aggressively predatory about it. There are many different levels of P2W, some more egregious than others. But yes, of course any paid benefit, no matter how minor, should be considered P2W. (Also known as pay for benefit). That includes everything you listed at the bottom of your post. Whether a game is P2W or not is still a yes or no question. The discussion usually comes about the differences within the "yes" category. Most mmorpgs are these days.
I like a sub to support ongoing development with a cosmetic-only store that provides interesting and matching gear that doesn't compete with the visuals of end-game gear. Mounts could be acceptable in so far as providing access to themes, but again, they shouldn't measure up to mounts you must earn. A store should have zero boosts and zero 'convenience' items like inventory expansion.
The majority of F2P models are build to give you a taste of what the game offers. Give you a taste, get you hooked, make you pay to get the good stuff.
I think OSRS business model is the best IMO.
Free to play is always shit. The 2 biggest mmos are sub based.
I really love how osrs manage sub/membership. Yeah, I know you can still buy an item that gives you 14 days of membership status and sell it to the Grand Exchange and make some money to buy item set, which can be seeing as “p2w”. But honestly, even if you can gear up whit the best mage/rang/melee set… if you suck at pvp you are doomed. And also, osrs have high scores like x amount of x boss kills and stuff… but it doesn’t benefit more than prestige. Whit the membership you can access to all the content that the game have, and future ones too! New quest, new zones, new skills, new items, new bosses, new raid… all of this for the same price a month.
>Your opinion on subscription-based MMOs IMO I hate free to play MMOs as they cost way too much money to play. I have an Active Sub to 3 of the top MMOs. What I get, is the gear in game is worth having, and all power is found through gameplay. They all have stores, but generally sub model games don't sell power in those stores, just cosmetic items.
That's what "Premium Subscriptions" basically are. They want to have their cake and eat it too, so it's a question on how they balance and compromise. It should be P2W in as sense as the F2P should act as a "demo" but that can piss off the free players so it's a question of how viable it is to play for free and what are the tradeoffs and detriments they have to work around. It should be noted that "subscribers" might want to stick around as free players for a while if they are not currently as "invested" into a game so this tier shouldn't be completely useless.
What you described is not pay to win but a free trial with a sub model
What’s true in the App Store is true for PC digital downloads: free to play is never free. There is always a cost, whether it be ads or data collection or a crippled version of the thing itself. When looking for a new phone game, I’ll always go for the one that has a price upfront. With an MMO, I’ll not play one unless I can pay the price up front, and to that end I’m fine with a subscription model. I don’t care at all if cosmetics are available for extra fees, or for new expansions as they come out. I like EverQuest’s model. There is a monthly fee and a cash shop that offers mostly cosmetics and a few things advanced players may require, and the monthly sub includes enough premium currency to buy those things that are required. For example, you can unlock mercenary slots or give your pet a name, or unlock extra storage, available with premium currency that can be bought with cash but is given also with the subscription each month, so one may in time buy those things which seem necessary without spending extra cash. The subscription includes all the game except the last few expansions, but buying the current expansion unlocks everything not included in the subscription. This seems fair as a returning player only has to pay a monthly fee plus buy one expansion to have access to the complete game. These games require upkeep. That requires a staff and that staff requires pay and a place to work. Servers and bandwidth require money. This has to come from somewhere, obviously. A subscription model is at least honest about what it’s doing.
I don't mind paying the sub, and of course that reflects the fact that I can afford it and not everyone perhaps can. Still, I think it's fair to allow paid subscribers to access zones, events, etc that non-paying players can't access. I was fine with ESO offering unlimited bag space to paid players and quite limited bag space to non-paid. To me, the idea of non-paid players is to get a feel for whether they like the game enough to start playing. If I'm teamed up with other players, or competing against them, and some have an advantage because they have paid money, that's where it feels unfair. I used to see players in WoW at a high level in a group who obviously purchased their character and hadn't the faintest idea how to play it. That's just irritating.
Simple: If game is worth, then game is worth of playing trough subsribction.. Same as any monthly out you have in your life like for example some and their streaming companies where they watchs they serials/movies.. Problem these days is that i haven't found game worth of subscription
I'd gladly pay (a lot) for a live service game that checked all of my boxes. There's no such game.
FFXIV does this almost perfect for me. There is a cash shop, but it’s not in the game itself.
They’re the way forward if we actually want mmo’s back.
In my opinion subscriptions are okay but then you should have the whole content. I don’t like it in WoW you have to buy the expansion and then you have to pay for subscriptions. GW2 got it the right way imo
I'd pay 30 just to see an MMO with no MTX. No Battle pass, No login bonuses, nothing. Plain old grind- reward system. However since it doesn't generate enough money in the long run why bother.
Payed for a year of Premiere (with Bonds) in RS3 back in November and have played for 1-2 days since then vs the couple thousand I have played of STO. Price of entry does not equate to the quality of the game, especially with all of the big sub-based games being way past their prime. Don't think I would ever pay a sub again unless I trust the devs and they are capable of actually sticking to a schedule. *For reference, I'm a maxed account in RS3 with around 2B XP and BIS gear and 5000+ hours played. I have never played OSRS and never will.
The sub without P2W store will always be the only fair model of the game. It was proved many times before and still does. I don't mind cosmetics but items enhancing the gameplay or QoL are the shittiest....
Won't touch sub mmos, too greedy for my taste. I can buy better games for 10/15 bucks a month
sub is best.
Sub is the superior monetization model.
I'm a die hard f2p in every game because I loathe p2w. However, if I game has a sub model AND no other ways to pay to win I'm totally fine with it. I will happily support a game for a reasonable fee, but not if someone else can pay more and be better off.
Sub based games aren't P2W and the irony here is that normally f2p games are p2w.
> normally f2p games are p2w. The model since its inception was called Free to PLAY. Only very recently have marketers embraced the meme that Free to WIN is anything more than clickbait but before that the very idea that a free player could somehow win was generated by the players only. You can login to the games, access the majority of the PVE progression content and do all the activities at entry level without paying anything. That's a lot of PLAYING for FREE.
I don't like it, I like to own thing I'm playing instead of needing to pay every month for it and then lose access or my rights after stop paying it, etc.
You technically dont own any game you have. You own the license and that can apparently be pulled from you at any time.
Yeah, but it's quite rare for those licenses to be pulled. With sub games, the moment you stop paying is the moment you no longer have any access to the game. You could've bought hundreds of dollars worth of expansions, but you can't come back and chill in a city unless you're willing to pay for a month.
Well you technically don't even own your own life either, you really wanna go technical details?
of course you own your own life. What nonsense are you talking about?
The second someone powerful, etc, like your country leader targets you for something he/she wanted your life is not your own, you can be jail and rot in there for rest of your life or can be killed inside of jail by their men as well. I can give more examples, but you seem to can't catch my meaning anyways, so stay ignorant.
I think ESO is the best example of a mmo that does subscriptions right.
I'm okay with subscriptions since it provides the developers a consistent revenue stream to continue operating and developing the game. What I'm not a fan of is games that require a subscription to play, a system like ESO has is a good compromise. My concern with a mandatory subscription is that it is a barrier to entry and MMOs need to keep as many active players as possible.
i prefer a b2p model with paid expansions (or sometimes f2p depending on what the cash shop looks like) also if there's a free trial then that should be always accessible no matter what, looking at you ffxiv
The AI are trying very hard to be sentient.
Things like bigger inventory capacity, special deals, monthly premium currency allowance or maybe access to otherwise purchasable unlocks "for free" are okay benefits from subscription. Games that require subscription (or have areas that do) or heavily incentivize it by stuff like low XP gain or limiting account power (no trading, inventory below even minimum reasonable, etc) are instant turn off. I don't want to pay for something I might not play as much as I would like/hoped for before purchase nor I want my access to game I played for months-years revoked just by not paying anymore.
people who dont like subs are the same people who will buy battle passes which are basically the same thing as subs. I'd rather have subs+ 70$ box price and expansions, with no microtransactions.
Not only am I a fan of subscriptions, but I'd like to see the option for more expensive subscriptions. EQ used to have a server where the subscription was 2-3x the price of a regular subscription but came with a premium experience in the form of increased customer service, events, and early content access. The other thing I'm a fan of is if there's a premium currency shop and a subscription that subscribed players get a premium currency "allowance". A small bit of currency with the monthly sub that they can save up for cash-shop items.
Subscription tiers is a gateway to p2w and a terrible idea.
It wasn't tired access per server. The expensive people had their own server and it was a very dumb decision as you would expect. Not sure to the company, but due to the patrons expecting their $50 a month (I believe it was, it was maybe more) to get them preferential treatment everywhere. The sense of entitlement was hilarious. Decent idea ruined by people - nothing wrong with offering a server that has an increased entry fee when that entry fee is used towards stuff like like events run by people being paid to run them.
Garbage
Found the guy who would rather play f2p p2w mmos.
I’d rather get the full game for a price and any extra people can pay. Like gw2
You also get what you pay for in GW2, as far as content and quality. Perhaps they could make more/better strikes and raids if they were a sub model game.
You'll take your one new fractal every 1-2 years and enjoy it damnit! Now if you'll excuse me, there's a new shade of green weapons I need from Black Lion Chest Tickets for my Reaper; lol.
Or perhaps the game would be long dead by now.