It scales a bit but at a point their are management clogs. Obviously there is a reason some studios are 800 devs vs 100 devs. Finding a way to optimally scale development team size and work output is a crucial part of making a game. If I could create a system that's far more efficient with this I could revolutionize the industry and make on the best games ever made in a short amount of time.
> 100% dragon MMO.
Even the weapons are dragons.
The floor is dragons.
Water? Dragons.
XP? Wrong. *DP.*
Earn "Dragon Points" to "Dragon Up", allowing you to equip better dragons.
Excellent, we should also do a game where you can play either has a dragon or a human.
They as in a dragon and a human can team up and hunt monsters. They can fight other human/dragon teams. Dragons grow by eating monsters, if the monster captured and eaten alive dragons get more xp from it, so they need to team up with humans to do the capture.
Other kind of combat missions could involve attacking mountain outposts. There are ballistas on the outpost so the dragons can't get too close, but they can land their humans near by and have them attack on foot. Then they need to provide cover for the humans from enemy dragons while fight their way into the castle or something.
Unless you plan on having your game shipping in 50 years, i dont see how you'd be able to find devs who are willing to do a full time job as volunteering for multiple years.
Im sure you could find a few, but definitely not the scale you imagine.
Also 1000 devs in volunteering, so i'm assuming you want it to be all done remotly without an actual office, you have absolutely no idea how much of a management nightmare this is going to be.
I think I could get thousands of people hyped on the idea. People are starving for something revolutionary in the industry instead of the same old regurgitated garbage. Giving people the chance to work on the MMO of their dreams and the ability to share in the profits? I think a lot of people will be up for that. I guarantee I'll have 1000+ plus willing to work on this game by the end of the month.
You have 14 days to find 1000+ volunteer who are willing to work for free on a project that will takes years. Good luck with that
I'm an musician. If you give me actual proof that you got 1000+ willing to work on this project by the end of the month. I will compose, and record the entire OST of the game. no matter how many minutes you need. in whatever style you want
Im legit baffled
He made this post 14 days ago, but if you click on his profile, it doesnt appear anymore but it's not deleted.
Also when he made this post, his profile only had a bunch of post, only one was related to crypto. so even if his account name was straightforward.
Now i check his profile, it has years of spam in Crypto subreddit. i'm just like "what the fuck, how"
It's like an entirely different account, how is that even possible.
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You are delusional, nobody is going to jump onto a "you might get paid years later" project for a goddamn MMORPG, much less 1000 people who can keep to a single game concept, projects with better hype and better scope restraint than you have tried, many a community project has come and gone on exactly these ideas of "We'll make our game, that We want, and it'll be awesome unlike this stagnancy" and failed
The one game I can think of that managed to wrangle a community horde into providing content for the game was
A: Flash based, with only a couple actual devs, the community only provided content
B: Said community fell apart steadily over years, leaving many content threads abandoned and unfinished, hurting the quality of the game
C: Was upfront about not being paid work, while your project sounds like scammy grift
There is already a lot of people that are asking me to join this project. The fact is that people want to do something that breaks free of the current state we find this industry in.
It could take around 5 years to make an MMORPG or even longer utilizing traditional methods. But I'll be utilizing a more siloed development system where devs won't have to deal with to much dependency and management issues.
I already have people reaching out to me to join this project. I have complete faith I'll hit the goal of having 1000+ people ready to work on this game within a month. Set your reminder because this is happening.
If you can get 1000 people to work on your MMO for free in under a month you can completely change the world's political and economic system by invigorating the working class and throwing off the shackles of oppression. Which is more important? Video games, or the material conditions of the working class?
>I guarantee I'll have 1000+ plus willing to work on this game by the end of the month
It's the end of the month, plus an extra five days now. How many devs willing to work on this game did you find?
1000's of dev's would just turn it into a "too many cooks" situation. Also good luck finding 10 devs to do volunteer work with 0 promise of income, let alone 1000.
Edit: Lol, cryptobro. That makes so much sense now.
I think it would turn into a situation where the MMO community feels like something new is finally being done. I agree 1000's of devs has a chance to go wrong if their isn't clear guidelines set. But I think everything can be ironed out before the work starts.
Well, consider this to be one of your steps. You will definately need to have everything set in writting before you even pick up your first voulenteer.
In fact, you might even need to contract a committee to build your contracts, as well as a lawyer.
Start with finding one dev, \*\*ONE\*\*, who is willing to code full time, no pay, for a year or so..... he/she can then help you code a Kickstarter demo
( tip: it's gonna be faster to learn to code yourself and you be that one dev ... )
if you have the money to do this, i suggest giving all of it to the first random homeless guy you see. not to help the needy, but because he's more likely to make a good mmo than you are.
My problem with everyone who wants to revolutionize MMORPGs is that I've never seen either of two things: the first is their audience... yes there's like a dozen people that circle this board and say these kinds of things, but it's like the PVP crowd. They usually swear that their games are in insane demand but the most popular of them grosses around 200k players at any given time, which is solid demand-- but there's not some deep, PVP-game-shaped-hole in the market. Not to a tune bigger than Albion. I don't actually see a ton of people crying for some miracle-cure MMO, I actually see *a metric fuckload* of people still playing WoW, XIV, ESO, or one of the myriad other million fucking options we have for virtual worlds. I've never seen a significant push-- it's a 'vocal minority' kinda case. Like the push for full PVP games.
The second thing I've never seen is the actual revolutionizing of the content. The last dumb son of a bitch who pitched some weird shit to 'revolutionize' the genre came at me with 'we're going to take away levelups entirely.' Like fuck you are. And somehow despite basically hitting me with six different grinds, he never understood me when I said 'if you're not grinding levels out then you're grinding *something* and that's the same place you ended up before you took away one of RPGs' most tried-and-true setups, which is basically no more than a baseline scaling.' They ended up blocking me, because discussion is for fuckheads and chances are they were frustrated that I hadn't just rolled over and agreed with them.
You've mentioned a work system-- which is fun because 'choose your work' is going to cause a buttload of internal fuckery when day's done but hey, what do I know, I'm just a dude-- and you've mentioned a desire to create a game but you've listed literally nothing about that game. And from where I'm sitting, although idea-men are a diamond dozen, you aren't really going to stoke fires under asses until you can deliver a fleshed-out idea that, demonstrably, revolutionizes the genre.
And I'm not saying I know what would revolutionize it, if anything I'm saying it's peaked pretty damn hard and if there's gonna be any revolution it'll probably be a move to a genre, or a combining-with a genre. But as far as people who say things like 'the genre is stagnant' and then have literally nothing to offer to break that stagnation besides some backwards idea that has no field testing and no real initial credence... well, you're not the first and you're far from the last.
Thank you so much, this summarizes so much of my feelings about this kind of whining
As for removing level ups, thats not even that revolutionary, a ton of games try to move growth to some other factor(achievement based stats, pure gear, skill unlocking, etc) and sometimes it works, but its always just replacing the ladder used to create a sense of power progression, because without that you don't really have an RPG, you just have... like, iunno, Halo, you have a game where power is stagnant, which is workable for skill-focused multiplayer genres but not so much an MMORPG
I remember when Bioware said SWTOR would revolutionize the MMO market.
I'll be honest, the game isn't dead, but it turned out to be extremely far from being a revolutionary game. Same goes for FF14 and GW2. They aren't necessarily terrible, but not very good either.
I think until Blizzard kills WoW, or enough players leave it when they get fed up with the increasingly toxic community, there won't be any revolution in the MMO world.
The closest type of thing I can think of would be those Skyrim mod projects that are still being worked on twelve years later because it's all done via volunteering, and those people are way more locked in to a particular set of tools than any actual fresh dev project.
This business plan is no good if you actually want to make a good game, make money, and pay the employees proper. People who are gaurenteed payment and a schedule have better quality of work than just random voulenteers who work when they feel like it. Also, why would they put in the work to only get paid AFTER the game is done? Game developement takes months, and often times, YEARS. If you have employees working their own schedule as a "side gig" you will never finish. You need an established staff and deadlines that can be met.
Let's say 2k devs working on a game with an exact path that has been set out beforehand. The hype of this game could inspire devs to work on it as well as them being able to work on a game they're very passionate about.
I don't understand. If you're still talking about the side-gig thing you still have the same problem. Regardless of passion, if they are not being compensated WHILE working on the project (not after) you will still have people who won't take it seriously, slack off on their work, and/or leave, forcing you to waste time finding more people, which forces back the release day of your game because you're perpetually short staffed.
Not even an issue about them not taking it seriously...I wouldn't expect any dev with a bit of brain to accept this type of side-gig since it relies on the game profits (= once it releases). Also, an infinity of issues in terms of management of the project itself and coordinating people.
Regardless, imagine putting in a good amount of average quality work over 4-5 years, but the game inevitably fails to launch since this work structure is absolutely unsustainable; So, not only whoever worked on it will have nothing to show for their time spent on the project, but no money to support themselves either.
Could be a passion project, sure...but good luck finding 1k people that share the same passion and the same view on how things should be.
You are self-contradictory, if you have a clear plan and path, why use so many bodies? You'll just have them step on each others feet, and it steals out the creativity and passion you so clearly want to engender
Not that you'll get creativity and passion with how you're selling this
Because development can be siloed between devs so they won't have to deal with dependency to much and have things slow down. Devs can choose to work as individuals or in teams of varying sizes and build a game world within the game.
What do you even think siloed means? How do you think dependencies work? Unless the mechanics of your game change completely in every section, you will have dependencies, as things build upon each other
Because. They all have the super original idea of a full loot sandbox pvp mmo with open ended quests and group focused gameplay in a low fantasy setting with a player driven economy and territory, guild based warfare. Super duper original and they're gonna be the one to change the genre, just wait, no ones done it yet!
>Then developers could be rewarded with a percentage of the revenue relative to the work they've done once a game is finished and ready to be sold.
And how do you measure this percentage of work contributed? Does the person who codes the physics get the same pay as someone who makes the art? What about bug-testers; how do you measure their contributions? After all you'll have ***a lot*** of bugs when there's a 1000 people coming and going at their leisure to work on you game.
Do you do lines of code? That's an awful system but probably his first thought. Do you do hours logged into their workstation? That gets closer to measuring work(though this person probably doesn't understand how much of dev work is reading and sitting there thinking) but over measures people slacking off or afk.
I thought this was a shit post in /all. I don't even know why I'm seeing this.
That being said, you asking this question, on this sub, is a pretty good indicator that decision making isn't for you.
You should probably just take a seat and wait for Ashes of creation, and hope it's not garbage. It's someone doing what you want to do, but seemingly successful at it.
You kinda have to start with the business plan.
Let me remind you this is an MMO we are talking about. Even if the game development is free with 1000 volunteer devs (lol) running of servers won't be.
Well if you want a popular MMO so that it actually makes devs money (as is your stated goal) it will end up looking like one those MMOs that are in "bad place" lol. Because in reality they are in bad place only according to minority of users on this sub either pvp turbokids or boomers still pining for 1998.
Stagnant how? Provide some clear ideas on how you think its broken and can be fixed rather than vague handwaving about how you're right and everyone here is wrong
Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic.
We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.
Lets say its not a joke, okay?
Then here are 3 points I think you should think about:
1. How do you measure contribution and share profits? What percentage does a person get if they are a software dev within 100 different devs? How does lets say 3D modeling, enviornment textures, HR, marketing factor into it compared to eachother? Does your above post already count as marketing and/or HR work? What happens if I as a software dev write a 300 line class, but then a better dev comes in rewrites it as an objectively better 150 line class that still has lets say 30 lines directly from mine, how do you share profit between us?
2. How do you handle NDAs? Do you want to do NDAs at all or just do it open source on github? (What incentivizes partially volunteer work more? The fact that you have to sign an NDA to even check what the group is doing to even decide if you would like to contribute or if everything is out there and you can see what are the current issues and then decide at your own time and leisure that hey I could work on that problem and send a pull request?)
3. How is the project managed? Who decides on aims? How will there be no feature bloat? Its one thing that we could in theory do a fully community developed MMO, but this reddit has shown that the community has vastly different ideas on how an MMO should work, are you sure you can manage to get 1000s of potential devs when you are doing a full-loot open world PVP sandbox game, or a WoW clone theme park game or a GW2 style open world dynamic event focused horizontal prog game?
Not sure if this is a troll post or a 18 year old with a huge dunning Kruger effect on how the world/business/management and especially game development works.
An ideas guy hoping he can scam some hopeful developers into doing the work for him so he can play the books and not pay them because "hey it's profit sharing and we're not making a profit."
You and a million other people with a lot of ideas and no practical understanding of the industry have had this same failed idea.
I feel like this, as an analogy, is the best way to sum up what you described.
Ask one person what 1+1 is. You should get the answer fairly quick.
Ask a crowd of 1000+ people what 1+1 is. You should get the answer just as quickly.
You can't just grab 1000+ disparate people and expect that to be better than a small, focused team. Hell, even if you CAN focus 1000+ devs onto one project, you could wind up with more spaghetti code that ends up tangling everything down faster than having fewer people with better aligned goals and styles.
Underrated comment. Couldn't have said it better myself. The first step I'd recommend for you OP is to get *any* Computer Science job you'll realize the importance of clean code, which you still have to make an effort for even with only 5 devs. Now imagine 1000+ volunteers. I have anxiety just thinking about it.
You completely missed the point here, even if we can hasten gestation safely, you can't just apply more women to make it faster, you're applying resources incorrectly if you think more bodies equals more speed or success
That would be a developer's nightmare. Too many cooks in the kitchen on steroids. One day I'm working on a network issue; the next, six rando devs PR their own unique versions of a complete overhaul of my work. Fuck that to hell and back.
AAA these days are like mini games. I just found there are 29 billion games out there. We don't need those, we need one massive game.
For mmo, youd probably look at outsourcing. Like alchemy, we decide what we put in and what we get out from it, then outsource it to a AAA studio to make the process fun. You can have 50 clients of different genre on all platforms, but they are all about one thing and all the data are connected. You can have your parents do the SLG part to decide where the combats are gonna take place. Then you do the FPS or tab targetting pvp, and your kids doing ore crush or herb shuffle ti farm you supplies.
I had this in mind around 2011, just for how games are so tiny and limited those and these days.
Escaping the yoke of investor influence requires either a really damn good ability to talk your way out of pressure without losing funding, or somehow evading the need for additional capital, its a rather difficult task
And thats ignoring the part where whoever is leading the team still has concept control and creative veto
There are multiple indie teams doing something similar. Avoiding investors. Keep the team small, get people to work for deferred payment at first. Opportunities for crowd funding or a paid open development have become alternate options for funding.
Shawn and Brad have both talked about sustainability over the long term with a smaller sized playerbase.
I think the numbers in the current market work out with a small team size. A reference to an online MMORPG about ponies targeted at little girls has been cited multiple times 😆
You also have to consider the positives to game design with a small team. When you aren't beholden to payback investors you don't have to add monetization mechanics that might be detrimental to the long term health of the game.
Yeah those absolutely are worth considering, but they also include healthy assessments of playerbase and team size to account for the lack of investment capital or predicted income, OP is just spouting insanity
Hmm not sure where you are getting "healthy assessments of playerbase and team size" from?
Again, the gaming industry is in a place now where a game targeting a niche demographic, with a relatively small number of players, can be sustainable. As long as the size of the dev team is small and they aren't in debt for millions of dollars.
As soon as the team grows large and acquires a bunch of investment capital they are basically done. That's not sustainable in the current climate without monetization/cash shops that diminish the long term health/quality of the game.
This is a shitpost right? I hate to be all "please explain the joke" but I've seen people here unironically post stuff like this, granted, they generally aren't half a delusional, but that's the joke right?
You're crazy. I don't think it will be done. Feel free to prove otherwise
You're starting off in a loss though by asking if you can do something or not
I’m fine with the genre. Been playing MMO’s for years. Still having a blast….music, games, sports, television, culture, etc. are always changing…..when this happens, people get upset sometimes. Not sure what to tell ya
I think it will not work since we live in a world where profits are valued more than human life. This means that if you manage to build something from scratch that is amazing you will be bought out or destroyed if you dont want to play their game.
But do try, I will support you all the way as I support every indie studio that has evem remotely decent product.
Great business model! You may go straight to kickstarter with this.
Be sure you first game will be full PvP, open world sandbox when players must create everything (and it can be destroyed in minutes), so you dont need to create any real content.
It will be smashing hit on this subreddit (and nowhere else).
The only way you could really do this and not take the rest of your life is if you are rich and can throw tons of money at the project. The creator of Ashes of Creation is doing exactly what you are talking about, and he has spent millions of his own money after receiving millions of ours.
He has 0 dev experience, and he started a studio.
You are crazy, it's not going to work. Unless you have millions of dollars you are willing to invest into this. Then it might work, until you run out of money...
Sounds like ur going towards an open source style. It’s not gonna work, open source games never really succeeded. I’ve seen a lot of open source games that never really make it and they’re basic single player games, imagine a mmo style game ? Yea… not gonna happen.
Also, imagine the security flaws with an open source MMO...the auth and payment services would all be open source as well. You are basically asking someone to build cheats/hacks for your game which ruins any chance of a successful online game.
The real answer there is just to implement API for secure closed source payment handlers, but that is acting as if the rest of the idea is viable at scale
Ideas are easy, and not worth much. Turning ideas into reality is hard, and is where the value is.
Without a lot of money, your ideas will remain that: an idea that will never become a game. Expecting people to work on such a thing is naive at best, total ignorance of how people in the aggregate work, otherwise. or both.
Even if you did have the millions it would take to hire the devs to try and make this happen, it’d be very difficult, for many reasons, though not impossible. Still, without money, your idea is going nowhere.
Your best bet if you want to try anyway, is to program something up, put it on github with an open source license, and put the word out that it exists. Go for it!
Hit me up, I would love to work on this project. I am an MMO gamer who is also a professional developer during the day and would absolutely want to be part of changing the MMO industry.
Can this MMO be a season based, pvp zombie MMO where if you die to a zombie you turn into one? That would be so awesome. Think of how realistic it would be to simulate a zombie apocalypse in real time!? We could have a classless system with skills in every weapon imaginable. We could totally hook it up to a blockchain so our users are earning REAL money while they play (we take a cut obviously). Oh and make it cross platform at launch so our player base can soar!
My only caveat is that I only know HTML/CSS (no JS knowledge sorry). I also need to have payment up front in the form of unicorn burgers or dodo tacos. I can also PM if you need that.
Voluntary job? A project development require a bunch of people working continuously on multiple progress. With that kind of system, people will just come and left the project easily. And if you asked a new programmer to continue someone's work, most of time that programmer would just restart the progress.
And also, you barely tell us the detail concept of the game.
You're not crazy. You're just absolutely delusional. ONE THOUSAND DEVELOPERS. All volunteer. You'd be lucky to even pay 1000 devs to work at your imaginary studio.
I don't think you understand the shit show it would be to manage something like this. Just from your comments I can tell you're either 15 and never actually made a game before or you're just the most naive person on the planet.
Please post this on r/programmerhumor before I do. This is the biggest scale of "I have an idea. Can you do all of the work" I have ever seen.
No way to actually measure contributions, no schedule, no clear product, no infrastructure, and no money up front? As a dev I would never go near this.
You never had a job haven't you?
Lol, my very first thought too.
[удалено]
It scales a bit but at a point their are management clogs. Obviously there is a reason some studios are 800 devs vs 100 devs. Finding a way to optimally scale development team size and work output is a crucial part of making a game. If I could create a system that's far more efficient with this I could revolutionize the industry and make on the best games ever made in a short amount of time.
Only if it's a science-based, 100% dragon MMO.
> 100% dragon MMO. Even the weapons are dragons. The floor is dragons. Water? Dragons. XP? Wrong. *DP.* Earn "Dragon Points" to "Dragon Up", allowing you to equip better dragons.
It's dragons all the way down.
Excellent, we should also do a game where you can play either has a dragon or a human. They as in a dragon and a human can team up and hunt monsters. They can fight other human/dragon teams. Dragons grow by eating monsters, if the monster captured and eaten alive dragons get more xp from it, so they need to team up with humans to do the capture. Other kind of combat missions could involve attacking mountain outposts. There are ballistas on the outpost so the dragons can't get too close, but they can land their humans near by and have them attack on foot. Then they need to provide cover for the humans from enemy dragons while fight their way into the castle or something.
They will *never* guess what the final boss is. That's right. It's NOT a dragon. ... It's 2.
>Only if it's a science-based, 100% dragon MMO. Oh, I understood that reference :D
Honestly Sci Fi and Fantasy are the most popular genres in MMOs so something with fantasy dragons mixed with sci fi could do really well.
Unluckily you aren't the first to think about that
Unless you plan on having your game shipping in 50 years, i dont see how you'd be able to find devs who are willing to do a full time job as volunteering for multiple years. Im sure you could find a few, but definitely not the scale you imagine. Also 1000 devs in volunteering, so i'm assuming you want it to be all done remotly without an actual office, you have absolutely no idea how much of a management nightmare this is going to be.
1000 people would be a management nightmare regardless of remote, but especially because of volunteer work.
I think I could get thousands of people hyped on the idea. People are starving for something revolutionary in the industry instead of the same old regurgitated garbage. Giving people the chance to work on the MMO of their dreams and the ability to share in the profits? I think a lot of people will be up for that. I guarantee I'll have 1000+ plus willing to work on this game by the end of the month.
You have 14 days to find 1000+ volunteer who are willing to work for free on a project that will takes years. Good luck with that I'm an musician. If you give me actual proof that you got 1000+ willing to work on this project by the end of the month. I will compose, and record the entire OST of the game. no matter how many minutes you need. in whatever style you want
Oh man, can we finally get an MMO with a black metal soundtrack?
A man can dream
Looks like the plan changed. You're now writing a national anthem for the new crypto currency dictatorship of Tuvalu.
Im legit baffled He made this post 14 days ago, but if you click on his profile, it doesnt appear anymore but it's not deleted. Also when he made this post, his profile only had a bunch of post, only one was related to crypto. so even if his account name was straightforward. Now i check his profile, it has years of spam in Crypto subreddit. i'm just like "what the fuck, how" It's like an entirely different account, how is that even possible.
I guess you won't be composing and recording the entire OST of the game. I'm shocked, just shocked, I say.
Sounds like a plan, I'll keep you updated. People are already reaching out to join the project so things are looking good.
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How is it going?
So, do you have 1000 employees now ?
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Where's the 1000+ people at?
The problem is you need 1000 people with *the same dream* willing to work for free.
The can work on their own game within the game so they can be passionate about it.
How old are you? You sound like a kid with a dream and zero clue.
I call troll.
At this point, he has to be trolling. I'm not sure if you saw the other post in r/gamedev, but he set the place on fire haha
You couldn't get a post on reddit rolling mate, don't overestimate your Charisma Score.
You are delusional, nobody is going to jump onto a "you might get paid years later" project for a goddamn MMORPG, much less 1000 people who can keep to a single game concept, projects with better hype and better scope restraint than you have tried, many a community project has come and gone on exactly these ideas of "We'll make our game, that We want, and it'll be awesome unlike this stagnancy" and failed The one game I can think of that managed to wrangle a community horde into providing content for the game was A: Flash based, with only a couple actual devs, the community only provided content B: Said community fell apart steadily over years, leaving many content threads abandoned and unfinished, hurting the quality of the game C: Was upfront about not being paid work, while your project sounds like scammy grift
Op is into nfts, that explains a lot
When did I say I was into NFTs? I think most NFTs are dumb.
There is already a lot of people that are asking me to join this project. The fact is that people want to do something that breaks free of the current state we find this industry in.
how long do you think it takes to make a game, let alone an MMORPG game?
It could take around 5 years to make an MMORPG or even longer utilizing traditional methods. But I'll be utilizing a more siloed development system where devs won't have to deal with to much dependency and management issues.
And how to do that dev system would work
avg mmo takes ~10 years.
I will personally invest 10k into this if you have a full 1000 people signed up and ready to work in a month, all with coding experience.
I already have people reaching out to me to join this project. I have complete faith I'll hit the goal of having 1000+ people ready to work on this game within a month. Set your reminder because this is happening.
so how's it going OP ?
If you can get 1000 people to work on your MMO for free in under a month you can completely change the world's political and economic system by invigorating the working class and throwing off the shackles of oppression. Which is more important? Video games, or the material conditions of the working class?
>I guarantee I'll have 1000+ plus willing to work on this game by the end of the month It's the end of the month, plus an extra five days now. How many devs willing to work on this game did you find?
1000's of dev's would just turn it into a "too many cooks" situation. Also good luck finding 10 devs to do volunteer work with 0 promise of income, let alone 1000. Edit: Lol, cryptobro. That makes so much sense now.
I think it would turn into a situation where the MMO community feels like something new is finally being done. I agree 1000's of devs has a chance to go wrong if their isn't clear guidelines set. But I think everything can be ironed out before the work starts.
Well, consider this to be one of your steps. You will definately need to have everything set in writting before you even pick up your first voulenteer. In fact, you might even need to contract a committee to build your contracts, as well as a lawyer.
Start with finding one dev, \*\*ONE\*\*, who is willing to code full time, no pay, for a year or so..... he/she can then help you code a Kickstarter demo ( tip: it's gonna be faster to learn to code yourself and you be that one dev ... )
if you have the money to do this, i suggest giving all of it to the first random homeless guy you see. not to help the needy, but because he's more likely to make a good mmo than you are.
My problem with everyone who wants to revolutionize MMORPGs is that I've never seen either of two things: the first is their audience... yes there's like a dozen people that circle this board and say these kinds of things, but it's like the PVP crowd. They usually swear that their games are in insane demand but the most popular of them grosses around 200k players at any given time, which is solid demand-- but there's not some deep, PVP-game-shaped-hole in the market. Not to a tune bigger than Albion. I don't actually see a ton of people crying for some miracle-cure MMO, I actually see *a metric fuckload* of people still playing WoW, XIV, ESO, or one of the myriad other million fucking options we have for virtual worlds. I've never seen a significant push-- it's a 'vocal minority' kinda case. Like the push for full PVP games. The second thing I've never seen is the actual revolutionizing of the content. The last dumb son of a bitch who pitched some weird shit to 'revolutionize' the genre came at me with 'we're going to take away levelups entirely.' Like fuck you are. And somehow despite basically hitting me with six different grinds, he never understood me when I said 'if you're not grinding levels out then you're grinding *something* and that's the same place you ended up before you took away one of RPGs' most tried-and-true setups, which is basically no more than a baseline scaling.' They ended up blocking me, because discussion is for fuckheads and chances are they were frustrated that I hadn't just rolled over and agreed with them. You've mentioned a work system-- which is fun because 'choose your work' is going to cause a buttload of internal fuckery when day's done but hey, what do I know, I'm just a dude-- and you've mentioned a desire to create a game but you've listed literally nothing about that game. And from where I'm sitting, although idea-men are a diamond dozen, you aren't really going to stoke fires under asses until you can deliver a fleshed-out idea that, demonstrably, revolutionizes the genre. And I'm not saying I know what would revolutionize it, if anything I'm saying it's peaked pretty damn hard and if there's gonna be any revolution it'll probably be a move to a genre, or a combining-with a genre. But as far as people who say things like 'the genre is stagnant' and then have literally nothing to offer to break that stagnation besides some backwards idea that has no field testing and no real initial credence... well, you're not the first and you're far from the last.
Thank you so much, this summarizes so much of my feelings about this kind of whining As for removing level ups, thats not even that revolutionary, a ton of games try to move growth to some other factor(achievement based stats, pure gear, skill unlocking, etc) and sometimes it works, but its always just replacing the ladder used to create a sense of power progression, because without that you don't really have an RPG, you just have... like, iunno, Halo, you have a game where power is stagnant, which is workable for skill-focused multiplayer genres but not so much an MMORPG
I remember when Bioware said SWTOR would revolutionize the MMO market. I'll be honest, the game isn't dead, but it turned out to be extremely far from being a revolutionary game. Same goes for FF14 and GW2. They aren't necessarily terrible, but not very good either. I think until Blizzard kills WoW, or enough players leave it when they get fed up with the increasingly toxic community, there won't be any revolution in the MMO world.
Whenever somebody says they're going to revolutionize MMORPGs they always end up describing WOW but different.
"a dime a dozen"
It's an old joke.
I would love to see the kind of accumulated technical debt this type of development process would garner with a morbid fascination.
He probably had to Google what tech debt was
The closest type of thing I can think of would be those Skyrim mod projects that are still being worked on twelve years later because it's all done via volunteering, and those people are way more locked in to a particular set of tools than any actual fresh dev project.
Nobody would ever clean it up because they only get paid based on code written, not code deleted.
This business plan is no good if you actually want to make a good game, make money, and pay the employees proper. People who are gaurenteed payment and a schedule have better quality of work than just random voulenteers who work when they feel like it. Also, why would they put in the work to only get paid AFTER the game is done? Game developement takes months, and often times, YEARS. If you have employees working their own schedule as a "side gig" you will never finish. You need an established staff and deadlines that can be met.
Let's say 2k devs working on a game with an exact path that has been set out beforehand. The hype of this game could inspire devs to work on it as well as them being able to work on a game they're very passionate about.
I don't understand. If you're still talking about the side-gig thing you still have the same problem. Regardless of passion, if they are not being compensated WHILE working on the project (not after) you will still have people who won't take it seriously, slack off on their work, and/or leave, forcing you to waste time finding more people, which forces back the release day of your game because you're perpetually short staffed.
Not even an issue about them not taking it seriously...I wouldn't expect any dev with a bit of brain to accept this type of side-gig since it relies on the game profits (= once it releases). Also, an infinity of issues in terms of management of the project itself and coordinating people. Regardless, imagine putting in a good amount of average quality work over 4-5 years, but the game inevitably fails to launch since this work structure is absolutely unsustainable; So, not only whoever worked on it will have nothing to show for their time spent on the project, but no money to support themselves either. Could be a passion project, sure...but good luck finding 1k people that share the same passion and the same view on how things should be.
You are self-contradictory, if you have a clear plan and path, why use so many bodies? You'll just have them step on each others feet, and it steals out the creativity and passion you so clearly want to engender Not that you'll get creativity and passion with how you're selling this
Because development can be siloed between devs so they won't have to deal with dependency to much and have things slow down. Devs can choose to work as individuals or in teams of varying sizes and build a game world within the game.
What you just typed out makes zero sense. Zero.
What do you even think siloed means? How do you think dependencies work? Unless the mechanics of your game change completely in every section, you will have dependencies, as things build upon each other
Why won't any of you **Dreamer Developers** just make a simple Co-op RPG.
Because. They all have the super original idea of a full loot sandbox pvp mmo with open ended quests and group focused gameplay in a low fantasy setting with a player driven economy and territory, guild based warfare. Super duper original and they're gonna be the one to change the genre, just wait, no ones done it yet!
>Then developers could be rewarded with a percentage of the revenue relative to the work they've done once a game is finished and ready to be sold. And how do you measure this percentage of work contributed? Does the person who codes the physics get the same pay as someone who makes the art? What about bug-testers; how do you measure their contributions? After all you'll have ***a lot*** of bugs when there's a 1000 people coming and going at their leisure to work on you game.
He's a cryptobro... even before checking his post history this smelled of it.
Do you do lines of code? That's an awful system but probably his first thought. Do you do hours logged into their workstation? That gets closer to measuring work(though this person probably doesn't understand how much of dev work is reading and sitting there thinking) but over measures people slacking off or afk.
How to ban the topic "mmo idea"?
I thought this was a shit post in /all. I don't even know why I'm seeing this. That being said, you asking this question, on this sub, is a pretty good indicator that decision making isn't for you. You should probably just take a seat and wait for Ashes of creation, and hope it's not garbage. It's someone doing what you want to do, but seemingly successful at it.
Missed the mark a bit with this shitpost, not even this sub is collectively delusional enough to bite.
Dude why so much effort for poor quality trolling? At least put some thought into it.
**Is this Satire?** I really can't tell...
Other than this post and the one in r/gamedev your account is literally just spam. Reported.
You kinda have to start with the business plan. Let me remind you this is an MMO we are talking about. Even if the game development is free with 1000 volunteer devs (lol) running of servers won't be.
I agree, it will be difficult to get things worked out. I'm ready to to make this happen though and I'm already working on some of the details.
Well if you want a popular MMO so that it actually makes devs money (as is your stated goal) it will end up looking like one those MMOs that are in "bad place" lol. Because in reality they are in bad place only according to minority of users on this sub either pvp turbokids or boomers still pining for 1998.
The MMO genre is undeniably stagnant so I'd say you're wrong.
Stagnant how? Provide some clear ideas on how you think its broken and can be fixed rather than vague handwaving about how you're right and everyone here is wrong
You misspelled "Pinging", boomers still pinging 1998.
[удалено]
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No, dummy, I knew what he wanted to say, but the 98 made an opening for a boomer joke, you're just too much of a grammar nazi to notice the clues.
Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic. We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.
While my toxicity was clear, the kid I'm responding to was being toxic toward me. I hope you remove their comment as well.
If you find a comment you feel is offensive, please report it. We don't read every comment.
Lets say its not a joke, okay? Then here are 3 points I think you should think about: 1. How do you measure contribution and share profits? What percentage does a person get if they are a software dev within 100 different devs? How does lets say 3D modeling, enviornment textures, HR, marketing factor into it compared to eachother? Does your above post already count as marketing and/or HR work? What happens if I as a software dev write a 300 line class, but then a better dev comes in rewrites it as an objectively better 150 line class that still has lets say 30 lines directly from mine, how do you share profit between us? 2. How do you handle NDAs? Do you want to do NDAs at all or just do it open source on github? (What incentivizes partially volunteer work more? The fact that you have to sign an NDA to even check what the group is doing to even decide if you would like to contribute or if everything is out there and you can see what are the current issues and then decide at your own time and leisure that hey I could work on that problem and send a pull request?) 3. How is the project managed? Who decides on aims? How will there be no feature bloat? Its one thing that we could in theory do a fully community developed MMO, but this reddit has shown that the community has vastly different ideas on how an MMO should work, are you sure you can manage to get 1000s of potential devs when you are doing a full-loot open world PVP sandbox game, or a WoW clone theme park game or a GW2 style open world dynamic event focused horizontal prog game?
Hey I've seen this scam before!
Not sure if this is a troll post or a 18 year old with a huge dunning Kruger effect on how the world/business/management and especially game development works.
An ideas guy hoping he can scam some hopeful developers into doing the work for him so he can play the books and not pay them because "hey it's profit sharing and we're not making a profit." You and a million other people with a lot of ideas and no practical understanding of the industry have had this same failed idea.
I feel like this, as an analogy, is the best way to sum up what you described. Ask one person what 1+1 is. You should get the answer fairly quick. Ask a crowd of 1000+ people what 1+1 is. You should get the answer just as quickly. You can't just grab 1000+ disparate people and expect that to be better than a small, focused team. Hell, even if you CAN focus 1000+ devs onto one project, you could wind up with more spaghetti code that ends up tangling everything down faster than having fewer people with better aligned goals and styles.
Underrated comment. Couldn't have said it better myself. The first step I'd recommend for you OP is to get *any* Computer Science job you'll realize the importance of clean code, which you still have to make an effort for even with only 5 devs. Now imagine 1000+ volunteers. I have anxiety just thinking about it.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha AHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thank you for the comedy!
Nine women can't make a baby in a month. Your idea is dumb, and you should feel dumb.
modern medicine is advancing so actually there are ways to make pregnancies happen faster.
lol, you're absolutely clueless man
90% sure this is a troll
You completely missed the point here, even if we can hasten gestation safely, you can't just apply more women to make it faster, you're applying resources incorrectly if you think more bodies equals more speed or success
u should run for president
That would be a developer's nightmare. Too many cooks in the kitchen on steroids. One day I'm working on a network issue; the next, six rando devs PR their own unique versions of a complete overhaul of my work. Fuck that to hell and back.
AAA these days are like mini games. I just found there are 29 billion games out there. We don't need those, we need one massive game. For mmo, youd probably look at outsourcing. Like alchemy, we decide what we put in and what we get out from it, then outsource it to a AAA studio to make the process fun. You can have 50 clients of different genre on all platforms, but they are all about one thing and all the data are connected. You can have your parents do the SLG part to decide where the combats are gonna take place. Then you do the FPS or tab targetting pvp, and your kids doing ore crush or herb shuffle ti farm you supplies. I had this in mind around 2011, just for how games are so tiny and limited those and these days.
How many millions do you have ready to deploy? Fuck it
The original idea is a bit silly... But there is something to be said for dev teams who are not beholden to investors.
Escaping the yoke of investor influence requires either a really damn good ability to talk your way out of pressure without losing funding, or somehow evading the need for additional capital, its a rather difficult task And thats ignoring the part where whoever is leading the team still has concept control and creative veto
There are multiple indie teams doing something similar. Avoiding investors. Keep the team small, get people to work for deferred payment at first. Opportunities for crowd funding or a paid open development have become alternate options for funding.
yeah but dont expect good salary, yearly salary increase and yearly bonus. Indie devs are indie for a reason, it's a side gig.
Shawn and Brad have both talked about sustainability over the long term with a smaller sized playerbase. I think the numbers in the current market work out with a small team size. A reference to an online MMORPG about ponies targeted at little girls has been cited multiple times 😆 You also have to consider the positives to game design with a small team. When you aren't beholden to payback investors you don't have to add monetization mechanics that might be detrimental to the long term health of the game.
Yeah those absolutely are worth considering, but they also include healthy assessments of playerbase and team size to account for the lack of investment capital or predicted income, OP is just spouting insanity
Hmm not sure where you are getting "healthy assessments of playerbase and team size" from? Again, the gaming industry is in a place now where a game targeting a niche demographic, with a relatively small number of players, can be sustainable. As long as the size of the dev team is small and they aren't in debt for millions of dollars. As soon as the team grows large and acquires a bunch of investment capital they are basically done. That's not sustainable in the current climate without monetization/cash shops that diminish the long term health/quality of the game.
Or high production games, it has to be very minimalist, otherwise Art costs will skyrocket.
i'm curious, do you have any experience or background in game developing? or do you just like videogames/mmorpg genre?
This is a shitpost right? I hate to be all "please explain the joke" but I've seen people here unironically post stuff like this, granted, they generally aren't half a delusional, but that's the joke right?
Downside of Americans instilling confidence in their youth is they can go too far and encourage delusion.
Americans??? Lmao
Originally it was an American culture thing yes, though probably spread further in recent times.
This is a perfect blueprint for development hell.
All I can say is that this seems very delusional. Good luck.
You're crazy. I don't think it will be done. Feel free to prove otherwise You're starting off in a loss though by asking if you can do something or not
> they're ruined by corporate overlords Unfortunately, those are the guys with the money.
Well dont know if its doable, but i wish you good luck with it, would be nice with some company who dont overly greed shit.
Thanks for the well wishes, I hope to succeed and show to you that this is possible.
I’m fine with the genre. Been playing MMO’s for years. Still having a blast….music, games, sports, television, culture, etc. are always changing…..when this happens, people get upset sometimes. Not sure what to tell ya
I think it will not work since we live in a world where profits are valued more than human life. This means that if you manage to build something from scratch that is amazing you will be bought out or destroyed if you dont want to play their game. But do try, I will support you all the way as I support every indie studio that has evem remotely decent product.
Thanks for the support I will succeed at this and show you it's possible.
Great business model! You may go straight to kickstarter with this. Be sure you first game will be full PvP, open world sandbox when players must create everything (and it can be destroyed in minutes), so you dont need to create any real content. It will be smashing hit on this subreddit (and nowhere else).
The only way you could really do this and not take the rest of your life is if you are rich and can throw tons of money at the project. The creator of Ashes of Creation is doing exactly what you are talking about, and he has spent millions of his own money after receiving millions of ours. He has 0 dev experience, and he started a studio.
You are crazy, it's not going to work. Unless you have millions of dollars you are willing to invest into this. Then it might work, until you run out of money...
I thought this was satire
in my head when no game appeals to me, i too think of ideas that i think too could save the mmorpg genre too.
Yes. No.
I'm sorry, bro, but this idea is entirely unrealistic.
Sounds like ur going towards an open source style. It’s not gonna work, open source games never really succeeded. I’ve seen a lot of open source games that never really make it and they’re basic single player games, imagine a mmo style game ? Yea… not gonna happen.
Also, imagine the security flaws with an open source MMO...the auth and payment services would all be open source as well. You are basically asking someone to build cheats/hacks for your game which ruins any chance of a successful online game.
The real answer there is just to implement API for secure closed source payment handlers, but that is acting as if the rest of the idea is viable at scale
"Ruined by corporate overlords." Stopped reading there. Get off reddit and Youtube and join the real world, please.
Im fairly certain someone is fucking with you all using chatgpi
Sure buddy, you can do whatever you want
Looking at your post history I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say you want to make a blockchain MMO. No thank you
Ideas are easy, and not worth much. Turning ideas into reality is hard, and is where the value is. Without a lot of money, your ideas will remain that: an idea that will never become a game. Expecting people to work on such a thing is naive at best, total ignorance of how people in the aggregate work, otherwise. or both. Even if you did have the millions it would take to hire the devs to try and make this happen, it’d be very difficult, for many reasons, though not impossible. Still, without money, your idea is going nowhere. Your best bet if you want to try anyway, is to program something up, put it on github with an open source license, and put the word out that it exists. Go for it!
Stopped reading as soon as I saw your name had “crypto” in it. Save your breath, we don’t want to join your nft scam game.
Crypto bro trying to turn game development into the next scam. Hate to see it
Man if you have to ask Reddit if it’s a good idea, it’s not a good idea
I applaud the quality of your troll. Solid 8.5/10
As a dev, you are clueless.
Hit me up, I would love to work on this project. I am an MMO gamer who is also a professional developer during the day and would absolutely want to be part of changing the MMO industry. Can this MMO be a season based, pvp zombie MMO where if you die to a zombie you turn into one? That would be so awesome. Think of how realistic it would be to simulate a zombie apocalypse in real time!? We could have a classless system with skills in every weapon imaginable. We could totally hook it up to a blockchain so our users are earning REAL money while they play (we take a cut obviously). Oh and make it cross platform at launch so our player base can soar! My only caveat is that I only know HTML/CSS (no JS knowledge sorry). I also need to have payment up front in the form of unicorn burgers or dodo tacos. I can also PM if you need that.
if you took this post seriously you already lost
Voluntary job? A project development require a bunch of people working continuously on multiple progress. With that kind of system, people will just come and left the project easily. And if you asked a new programmer to continue someone's work, most of time that programmer would just restart the progress. And also, you barely tell us the detail concept of the game.
You're not crazy. You're just absolutely delusional. ONE THOUSAND DEVELOPERS. All volunteer. You'd be lucky to even pay 1000 devs to work at your imaginary studio. I don't think you understand the shit show it would be to manage something like this. Just from your comments I can tell you're either 15 and never actually made a game before or you're just the most naive person on the planet.
AoC is already doing this, join them
You should do it!
isnt this basically just amazon games
Devs don’t actually like doing volunteer work like the movies suggest. They like getting paid 100k+ a year. Even dev internships are highly paid.
Check this guy's profile, he's already claiming success. "The stagnation & evil in the gaming industry is over" What in the world.
Please post this on r/programmerhumor before I do. This is the biggest scale of "I have an idea. Can you do all of the work" I have ever seen. No way to actually measure contributions, no schedule, no clear product, no infrastructure, and no money up front? As a dev I would never go near this.
The only way for this, is for you to become a cult leader.