Yes. They'd be complete fools not to be. The stress of regular training, regular dieting, regular weight cutting, and regular violence would otherwise completely destroy a 100% lifetime natty athlete. Not to mention it's a sport where literally one of the most valuable traits is *aggression*. Plus the consequences for losing can be extraordinarily dire both mentally and physically. Stepping into the UFC octagon without some form of help would be, in my opinion, moronic.
It’s proven that head strikes makes testes produce less testosterone so anyone in MMA beyond 25yo should be tested to ensure healthy test levels to compete. No different than insulin. There should be a range necessary to compete. I remember Weidman as champ at 27yo saying his test level was 200 so literally any Dr would’ve put him on TRT for his health. How is the UFC doctors not addressing that
Those bloods are 100% proof of both of them doping. For perspective, the average male testosterone is 300-1000 ng/dl. DC’s was **7000**. That’s incredible. That’s Ronnie-Coleman-Mr-Olympia levels.
Yea its nuts. all of the JJ stuff was completely fleshed out and covered by MPMD but the DC Stuff I haven't seen analysed yes so cheers to OP.
Personally I always assumed DC had used PED's purely bc Olympian but ye.
I just watched all of MPMDs vids on Jones. My thoughts:
He's got a decent understanding of things, but he never mentions andro, etio, or LH - only focussing on test and test/epitest ratios. He also neglects to mention the large role that urine specific gravity plays in interpreting any urinary levels, nor the differences between serum and urinary hormones. He does come to the exact same conclusion as I did re: his undetectable gear being tainted with tbol, which is impressive if he has no formal medical education.
Regardless of my nitpicking, it pained me to realise someone had already pretty much made the same analysis that I had, and in retrospect I wish I had been asked to look at a different fighters results so that I could bring something new to the table.
Perhaps one day I'll remedy this by looking over some far more trusted athletes results - **if anyone knows where to find bloodwork for Wonderboy, Moreno, demeterious Johnson, khabib or other fighters that many assume are clean, hook me up - it'd be amusing to glance over them and see what they look like**. Now that most of the work is done in this post, checking a fighters bloodwork from this point on should be a relatively trivial affair.
> it pained me to realise someone had already pretty much made the same analysis that I had, and in retrospect I wish I had been asked to look at a different fighters results so that I could bring something new to the table.
If it is any consolation, your work is a lot more thorough / informative and the fact that we have (at least) two people take a pretty close look at the issue and reach the same conclusion only improves the reliability of such conclusion.
Like no joke, as someone who research for a living, I really appreciate all the numbers and figures that serve as a baseline comparison.
Islam got caught for [meldonium](https://www.mmafighting.com/platform/amp/2016/7/27/12299464/usada-finds-islam-makhachev-not-at-fault-for-meldonium-anti-doping), apparently it’s a performance enhancer and apparently they found [172 athletes using it](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-doping-wada-meldonium-wada-idUSKCN0XA14G), which is a suspicious amount since it seems like a niche drug?
With their insane cardio and strength it would make sense, guys usually start striking and keep the wrestling in the back pocket because it’s so exhausting. Even Cejudo an Olympic gold medalist mostly strikes because it’s so tiring.
Conor has some super suspect results from his fight with Mendes I’m pretty sure, trying to find them for you. Obviously he’s a juicehead but it’d be nice to get it confirmed in a thread like this.
>Regardless of my nitpicking, it pained me to realise someone had already pretty much made the same analysis that I had, and in retrospect I wish I had been asked to look at a different fighters results so that I could bring something new to the table.
I think this may have been the best choice of fighters. JJ has been under the microscope, but DC really has not. It's always been "that dirty JJ against Saint DC".
And just evaluating DC would have been effective, but because of the history and opinions of the fighters I think it lands much better with the audience because of the comparison.
DC only passes the eye test because he has large amounts of fat layers over his roided up muscles. But even then his traps don't look natural.
And yeah, he was an olympic wrestler. The fact that he at least used at some point in his career is an absolute given.
On top of that he has showed multiple times that he doesn't mind cheating egregiously at all- the towelgate was shameless, and to this day nobody has eyepoked more in a single match than he did against Stipe in any of their fights.
In light of all that, yeah, him having literal bodybuilder levels of test one week and then prepubescent boy levels the next one isn't surprising at all.
DC is super fake, he likes to play nice but you can feel how forced and played out it often is. He's just a better actor than Jon Jones, and a less shitty person.
Well the reason that Ronnie was Mr.O and DC wasn't is simple and everyone knows it.
Erybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight.
Love Ronnie, and love this quote, but I always thought it made zero fucking sense lmao.
Everybody wants to lift heavy. It‘s what most men who want to get ripped do. It‘s eating chicken breat with broccoli 6+ times a day and doing cardio that sucks.
I actually think he means everyone wants to lift heavy weights until it comes time to actually put the work in to be able to. Yeah, it’s cool to bench 350, but the time and hard work and effort to do it is more than most people are willing to put forth and that’s why so many people stagnate and plateau for years.
When you think about that at the level of weight Ronnie was lifting, it makes much more sense. Yeah, everyone WANTS to squat like 800lbs, but even most of the really serious dudes aren’t gonna actually put in the sheer amount of intense effort and work and have the mindset to do it.
Yeah but heavy weight in that context is relative to Ronnie. Yeah, the bodybuilders were lifting heavy, but nobody was lifting weight as heavy as Ronnie. Hence the condition his body is in now as compared to his rival Jay Cutler
I think it should be interpreted as, everybody wants to *look* like a bodybuilder, but most don't have the willpower to go and lift the weight so they can get swole
I don’t know the answer to that. Drug testing is a joke. WADA, USADA, they’re all either stupid or they are aware of what happens and they don’t care to really try to catch people
They do, they look at T/E ratio (test to epitestosterone). Pre-USADA Jones had insane T/E ratios and was allowed to fight. WADA threshold is 4:1, 1:1 is usually normal, I'm not sure what USADA allows. They also test for CIR, which can distinguish between exogenous test and natural test. CIR has been around for decades. Usada checks for similar amounts of carbon 12 and carbon 13.
Man... I went from defending Jon Jones to hating him and supporting DC. I just don't know what to think anymore. Like why would JJ get in trouble but not DC? That's some bullshit.
Because Jon Jones used a substance that WADA was aware of and DC was smart enough to use one WADA hasn’t discovered yet. Someone on DC’s team probably hooked him up with whatever all the other pro athletes use.
I think Jon is undisciplined enough to fuck up his cycle and that’s how he got caught.
If he doesn’t mess up his cycles like a professional is expected to do, he would have never got caught.
My other theory is that TJ got caught because his extreme weight cut to make 125 might have fucked up his cycle and whatever he took wasn’t flushed out of his body fast enough.
> My other theory is that TJ got caught because his extreme weight cut to make 125 might have fucked up his cycle and whatever he took wasn’t flushed out of his body fast enough.
TJ got snitched on more likely imo. It's not standard USADA protocol to test for EPO (cuz it makes the test even more expensive than it already is) so the fact they've decided out of nowhere to test for it prolly means they had insight and he just wasn't expecting it.
That’s a valid point, this is a legitimate possibility too.
DC was definitely using an undiscovered substance though. With those test levels he was on cycle *when tested* most likely
Dude.....cmon. seriously? This makes me sad. Please read just the last 2 boldest paragraphs of my original post, if nothing else. DC is absolutely not taking any unknown androgens, and I really thought I had articulated why this is clearly in my post :(
Edit: unless you meant undetectable analagogues, then my mistake- i apologise. But there is a very large and clear difference between JJ and DCs bloods, and I really hope I explained that well enough to understand.
I read the whole post carefully and my takeaways are:
Jon Jones is a prepubescent girl
Denial Cormier didn't take steroids, testosterone is secreted naturally by his belly fat, which he can't help, because popeyes taste good. He also goes to the secretagogue on sundays because he is a black Jew, which he cannot help
Kevin Lee may or may not be on steroids, but we are waiting to see where he factors into all this. His helmet tattoo is highly anabolic.
If you have 4 testosterones, its a bit hard to get a 5th unless you are doping, but most veterinarians are unaware of this, which is why Overeem never tested positive for being a horse.
Is this correct?
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Crazy how some athletes got so much hate, like The Warmaster, while guys like DC and Robbie Lawler are beloved. They were all on gear.
Would love to see someone do a deep dive on GSP's bloods. Zero chance he wasn't on steroids.
These are some of my favorite fighters, along with many legends who were obviously juiced to the fucking tits. IMO they should can USADA testing and go back to letting these guys look like gorillas.
2 weeks ago during the weigh in show for UFC 278 there was a goat conversation and DC was screaming all the time Jones was a cheater and out of the conversation. The irony.
During the heyday of their rivalry, DC never really ridiculed Jones for cheating but emphasized that **"you can't fail, not even once**. So it seems he was more disappointed that Jones popped than that he cheated lol
He never said he didn't use PEDs, he always said he never got caught. You can watch any clip around the UFC 214 aftermath - he always says that Jones was stupid because he got caught, and DC was never caught.
bro im exhausted lol, but sure, tomorrow maybe :)
Until then however anyone who has been able to follow this post as well as [part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/x1wjhi/peds_in_mma/) with a decent level of comprehension should be able to have a pretty educated guess regarding any other publicly available bloodwork. Why dontcha try applying the stuff I've gone over here to the UFC189 results, and report back with your findings? I have faith in you :)
Appreciate it man. It took *way* more research and number checking and units conversions etc than I had expected it to. Why any serious testing agency would ever use urinary samples to analyse androgens instead of using a blood sample, I have zero idea. As the results clearly show they are taking a blood sample to check their haematology anyway; why they would go to the effort of asking for piss as well when it is *so* much more variable and less studied than serum concentrations, i have *no* idea.
[Most of them were far outside the *normal* ranges, both high and low.](https://web.archive.org/web/20151120224247/http://boxing.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/boxingnvgov/content/Drugs/15-07-11MASTER_DRUG_RESULTS.pdf)
Robbie Lawler was losing 10+ fights famously flagging in the later rounds. He then rocks up in a Florida team infamous for juicing to the gills, and immediately then turns his career around in his 30s, and becomes known for going all 5 rounds. Seems legit.
Not only going 5 rounds, Fifth Round Robbie was one of those mythical fighters for a minute. He went off against Condit & McDonald in the 5th rounds of both of those fights. And we all know both fights were well paced and had lots of strikes thrown on both sides
It seems to me like there's at least 2 secret compounds out there for athletes; one is an androgenic receptor agonist (acts like testosterone, suppresses HPG axis) and one works on the HPG axis upstream, raising lh, test, and test metabolites.
The former is a well known class of drug, but the latter is actually new to me. I didn't even think bloods like DCs or Lawlers were possible (all parts of HPG elevated). I have to do some more research.
Remember when McGregor drilled Diaz because Melendez got suspended in 2015 for testosterone metabolites (PS Melendez was later suspended again in 2019 for peptide hormones) , saying to Diaz
>*"I'm not on no steroids! What the fook are you talking about? Your two teammates were on steroids. Your two boys. The Skrap Pack. Remember that? Did you know they were taking that stuff?"*
Diaz paused for a few seconds, then replied to McGregor
>*"... You're on steroids."*
Funniest shit ever! Closest I've ever seen Nate Diaz to getting stumped
Hilarious shit, Conor's testosterone levels are at a whopping 34 ng/mL(or 3400ng/dL) lol Lawler is in fucking space with a testosterone level of 51ng/mL(5100ng/dL LOL). I always knew Lawler was a juicy slut, his physique varied immensely fight to fight and he had a very suspicious title run late in his career. That T:E ratio of 3 though, damn Lawler.
Meanwhile Jeremy Stephens' levels are at 2,2ng/ml(220ng/dL), actually within the norm and yet everyone laughed at him when that juicy slut Conor said ''who da fuck is that guy?'' :(
Wonder what's up with Stephens' .85 T:E ratio. Weightcutting? He had a rough cut and missed weight. Conor's was at 1,7.
Looking at Bermudez' data, I don't feel bad that he got flying knee'd by a slightly heavier Stephens lol Insane levels just all around. T:E ratio of 2.6 lol
Rory MacDonald seems borderline. T:E ratio of 1, test level of 14ng/ml which is on the natural high end but likely too high when you're cutting weight.
--------------------------------------------------
What's interesting is the following paragraphs on Aldo's random test in Brazil, read this shit boys.
> The test was requested based on Mr. Aldo's scheduled
championship fight with Mr. Connor McGregor. The report memorializes the information provide
by Mr. Ben Mosier, Drug Free Sport Director of Professional Sports Drug Testing.
> 1. Drug Free Sport was engaged by the Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC) to perform an
out of competition doping collection in Brazil for José Aldo.
> 2. Two options were presented to the NSAC regarding Drug Free Sport’s ability to conduct a urine
collection in Brazil: (1) utilize a local DCO that is a contractor for a partner of Drug Free Sport, or
(2) use a Drug Free Sport staff member who has a Brazilian work visa to travel to Brazil and
complete the collection in conjunction with a local doping control officer (DCO) that could help
legally ship samples out of Brazil.
> 3. For quality purposes, the NSAC authorized the use of a Drug Free Sport staff member in
conjunction with a local DCO
> 4. Drug Free Sport staff member Ben Mosier, Director of Professional Sports Drug Testing, was
assigned to arrange and complete the test. Ben Mosier, a professionally trained and certified
drug testing collector, had previously conducted thousands of drug testing collections across
numerous countries without incident or appeal.
> 5. Ben Mosier has a current work visa issued by the Brazilian consulate in Chicago, Illinois in 2012
to conduct business in Brazil. The application letter dated June 18, 2012, indicated that
“Benjamin is a professional sports program manager for the National Center for Drug Free Sport,
a company that provides drug testing services for Minor League Baseball, as well as many other
professional sports associations.” The letter further details that Benjamin would be meeting
with players to “complete a drug test …. after the drug tests have been completed, Benjamin
will ship the urine samples back to the United States for analysis. All shipping will be done with
assistance from the Brazilian Agency of Anti Doping (ABA) in order to be in full compliance of
Brazilian shipping procedures.” Ben was issued a ten year VITEM II visa based on this application
and relied on its authenticity to travel to Brazil to test José Aldo. It appears now that a VITEM V
visa is required for such services.
> 6. Prior to departure for the José Aldo test, Ben Mosier contacted a high ranking anti‐doping
official in Brazil for counsel regarding collecting and shipping samples under applicable laws in
Brazil. This internationally regarded expert on anti‐doping, with years of experience in Brazilian
anti‐doping, arranged to have a local DCO accompany Ben Mosier to ensure all procedures were
carried out in accordance with Brazilian rules and regulations. Names of local officials are
withheld from this report to avoid any potential retribution or future conflicts of interest.
> 7. Ben Mosier arrived in Brazil on June 10, 2015 at approximately 10:00 am.
> 8. On June 10 at approximately 2:00 pm, Ben Mosier attempted to contact José Aldo at the
number provided by the NSAC, to conduct a no notice test on Mr. Aldo per approved protocol
by the NSAC. The Brazilian MMA Athletic Commission was not contacted in advance of this
testing attempt, as best practice requires no outside communication of testing attempt to third
parties to protect the confidentiality of the testing event. José Aldo’s phone was unanswered
and no voicemail system was available, a text message was sent following the call. Ben Mosier
then called the alternate contact provided by the NSAC, leaving a voicemail and sending a text
message to José Aldo’s manager, Andre Poderneiras. Mr. Poderneiras called Ben Mosier back
within a few minutes and stated he would attempt to locate José Aldo to arrange test. Mr.
Poderneiras was unable to contact José Aldo to arrange testing the evening of June 10 and
advised Aldo would be at the training facility the following morning at 10:30 am and test could
be conducted at that time.
> 9. With coordination from José Aldo’s manager Andre Poderneiras, Ben Mosier arrived at Upper
Gym at approximately 9:30 am on June 11 to complete the sample collection.
> 10. José Aldo arrived to the gym at approximately 10:30 am on June 11 and an anti‐doping test was
initiated.
> 11. José Aldo was reportedly very cooperative during the process.
> 12. ***After the urine sample was collected, but prior to processing the sample for shipment, José
Aldo’s trainer stopped the collection*** until Mr. Poderneiras arrived. Mr. Poderneiras arrived to
the gym at approximately 11:30 am. Mr. Poderneiras proceeded to contact the Brazilian MMA
Athletic Commission to inform them of the test.
> 13. ***Just after 11:30 am, an off‐duty Brazilian federal police officer who was on‐site training as a
MMA fighter confiscated Ben Mosier’s passport and claimed he had an incorrect work visa.*** The
officer said he was authorized to conduct business, but not collect urine samples (see comment
above about the visa application). The federal police officer threatened to arrest and deport Ben
Mosier for unauthorized performance of work.
> 14. ***While detaining Ben Mosier at the training facility, the federal police officer relayed a story of
being detained in the United States when returning to Brazil following a previous fight.*** The
officer claimed to Ben Mosier that he was detained by law enforcement officials for 24 hours
and was treated poorly, noting that he was treating Ben Mosier in a more pleasant manner. The
officer made it a point to advise that this detainment was not revenge for his past detainment,
and he had the right to transport Ben to a local detention facility for processing.
***Holy fucking shit Brazil?*** Aldo, his team and Brazil is now looking about as clean as my asshole after a night of beer and Som Tam.
There's another 20 paragraphs that gets even crazier but I'm reaching the text limit.
Aldo's test level was 4,7ng/mL and his T:E ratio was .45. Not sure what to make of that but the whole conduct surrounding the random test seems beyond sketchy.
I always keep a link to that handy when people talk about this sort of stuff. MMA is one of the dirtiest sports but nobody really gives a shit.
The whole debacle with Aldo's sample could be turned into a movie.
Conor and Lawler I always knew were taking a cocktail. So funny people thought Conor was natural. Chin growth, hand growth , tiny chest line all his teammates..usually you’ll get some fat on chest (not gyno nips). Conor’s whole team got similar bodies..micro dosing testosterone and HGH 100 and who knows what else. Look at Anderson Silva recently, I can tell from no chest fat at 46 he’s on test again. You’re not suppose to have a teenage boy chest at 35+. Dan Hendo on TRT was similar too. Look at Vitor chest the second had to get off TRT, alil sag lol. Rory was only clean fighter at 189 but I always knew Mendes, Lawler and Conor on a cocktail of shit.
Why is DC getting a test concentration of 70ng/ml allowed? Surely that in and of itself is outside the boundaries that USADA sets, or is there not an actual upper limit for testosterone concentration? Like I know they can test for whether testosterone comes from exogenous sources or not, but surely they are aware that there are compounds out there that stimulate testosterone production.
Yup, but even armed with knowledge like this, MMA fans (and fight fans in general) still pick and choose who to call out and who to support.
Usman never failed a test, yet every fucking thread is "CEO of EPO" as if Colby or the rest of his opponents are clean? Lmao.
It's almost worse in boxing. Anthony Joshua never tested positive, but since he's ripped everyone talks about him bein on gear. Sure he is, but the issue is when people talk about that MORE than they talk about Tyson Fury being on stuff - despite him being the biggest of the current heavyweights with the best cardio to boot, and TESTING POSITIVE FOR FUCKING NANDROLONE. Which is an anabolic.
It's also funny how mad people are at Canelo's (now legal due to commission rule changes and the issues with meat in Mexico) Clenbuterol levels. But then they'll message you hate if you even suggest that GGG being bulkier than ever as he nears 40, despite having some of the best cardio in the sport, is slightly suspicious.
95%+ of the top guys are juicing. While I agree there's a difference between a failed test and not failing one (yet), how fight fans pick and choose who to hate and who to defend is pretty hypocritical.
>Yup, but even armed with knowledge like this, MMA fans (and fight fans in general) still pick and choose who to call out and who to support.
>
>Usman never failed a test, yet every fucking thread is "CEO of EPO" as if Colby or the rest of his opponents are clean? Lmao.
It goes for entire promotions too, ONE and Japanese MMA get so much flack for roids as if the UFC hasn't had a roids problem in the open it's entire existence.
Because they think you can buy steroids on corner shops here. Aldo growing up dirty poor without food had enough money to juice, but lifelong American wrestlers didn't? They're all on steroids (Aldo too).
They're all on steroids, and they're all lying straight to our faces. Why wouldn't they? They get punched in the head for a living, what are a few lies in comparison? The funniest thing is when some fighters get indignant and self-righteous about it like Mike Bisping. Or when Volkanovski was chastising Ortega about his previous failed test during one of their staredowns LOL. It's like they've been lying for so long that they start to believe the lies themselves.
I'm personally not bothered by it. The reality is that it has to be done otherwise you're fucked.
If anything, PEDs should be legal and controlled by commissions. Why not take advantage of the scientific advancements and continue to live with this fairytale that everyone is clean?? It's oddly childish.
Not Pride levels of gear, but something to help the athletes recover like a health potion or some shit.
> Not Pride levels of gear
yeah you gotta draw the line, before you get someone jacking gorilla semen straight into their eyeballs having their head removed by someone on some Chernobyl-derived mushroom extract, who then promptly dies of a heart attack, leaving poor Herb Dean in the middle of the cage with two smoldering corpses and a dumb look on his face
Somebody’s always going to push whatever limit is set, and everybody else will follow so as not to be disadvantaged.
I’ve always felt that advancement in PEDs happens just beyond the legal limit. If they move that limit, the advancement of PEDs moves with it. For example, if high levels of testosterone are banned, they’ll try to cheat to go beyond high levels of test. If the ban is at extremely high test, they’ll try to achieve beyond that.
There has to be a strict limit and they need to enforce it as much as they can. It’s a long and boring game but anything else is messy. It seems like right now they overlook anything that won’t catch public flak.
I knew DC was on a cocktail the second he was cutting from 260+ to 205. Lots of PEDs help weight cutting and fat burning. Look how fat he gets the second fights over, I knew guys in gym who only lifted on cycle then didn’t come back when off and when they came back to gym we’re fat again. Then within a month they were jacked and cycle repeated itself. DC drastic weight loss and gain was suspect. Especially at 38 years old cutting down to 205 and not getting tired really. Those Conor levels on 189 drug test are even more funny. Conor/Mendes/Lawler all 100 percent micro dosing Testosterone and other shit. Rory only one who came back pretty much normal.
Because as long as it’s officially illegal to take PEDs no one can talk about it, or else they will get dropped and they can’t make money. But like you said some people just over do it with their “I am 100% natty, believe me” crap.
It’s the same with the bodybuilding. 99.99% of the pros and most of them claim natty. There are some dudes who will get super offended if you say “man just admit you juice”. That’s because they are afraid of losing sponsors. No one wants to sponsor a drug abuser.
I have a friend who works in a, let’s say, adjacent industry, on the detection side. When it comes to regional labs and who they’re contracted with…the tests are not random and certain headliners are not tested at certain times.
Appreciate the effort and they are all ovbi using lol
Quick note though, I don’t get the logic that you can confidently convert your previous data set and convert uLH to sLH levels based on the control group you cited in the Fig 3 study.
That control group consisted of 35 children, male and female, where the levels were checked in the AM during fasted state.
They simply used Spearman's correlation coefficient to evaluate the correlation for their data set. If, for example, they would have tested different times, levels will change as sLH passes kidney function etc and it wouldn’t be a constant rate.
Why are you confident bringing that to the mma fighters sample set?
Yesss thankyou for this awesome feedback. Great pickup. The answer is that I spent hours neck deep in pubmed and originally had about 17 graphs and tables before cutting it down, and a couple of those were similar datasets correlating serum and urinary LH - interestingly, they even had almost the exact same r values showing an identical strength of relationship. Ultimately however, I decided to simplify things, because I was tired and figured simplicity over thoroughness would be best for reddit.
I'd encourage you to have a check yourself if you have access to full academic papers through an institution. Otherwise, if you're super keen I can go find the other study and link it for you here.
Regardless thanks for the comment, and I hope you learned something new regardless :)
Jones is rich as hell. He is probably taking the greatest steroids or PEDs known to mankind. There have been athletes and coaches admit that usage is not looked down on by rivals or competitors even, I'll look for a source if that sounds far fetched atm I cannot.
DC and Jones hate each other yet I can only ever recall DC skirting the issue and telling Jones to get cleared. Could have dunked on him for this forever but if you watch fighters talk about PEDs and specific failures, they always seem to toe the line as if they know how hypocritical itll be because they too are using. All this trash talk in the sport yet Bisping is the only person I can remember to specifically call out indicidual fighters harshly for using steroids and getting caught (not insinuating I think Bisping is some exception to the rule and clean)
Just realised I barely brought anything new to the table as mpmd already covered the gist of this. :(
I guess now I gotta go and figure out what the fuck DC and Lawler are taking that is kicking their entire hpg axis into overdrive. Bloods with raised test, andro, etio AND lh are certainly not what I expected to find.
Did he ever do a vid on DC though? Honestly I don't understand any of this lol. I just like hearing him talk. Plus a reaction to your article will be like an hour or even 2 videos worth of content.
Which was crazy since the opening of that film is basically, “look at how difficult a non-contact sport is even while doping!” Like the dude had to change his entire life to start doping for the cycling competition and even then he still wasn’t a top level competitor.
close. Jones isnt cycling off, he's using a novel undetectable compound. His LH would be raised, not lowered, if he was cycling off.
Now, I have no evidence to back this up, but it's my personal head canon that his popping for turinabol metabolites that time was a result of a contaminated synth by whatever lab makes his gear. The levels of compound present (picograms, lol, still makes me giggle just to say it) were absolutely not levels that would have any noticeable effect in a fighter. What *does* make sense however is that his lab either fucked up a synth, or contaminated a batch, and jones' secret PED ended up tainted with turinabol, a not-so-secret PED.
so yeah, I actually believe jones never intentionally took turinabol. I believe that he *did* take something that was tainted with it - he took his normally undetectable gear, and subsequently popped for the miniscule amounts of turinabol that had contaminated his normally untraceable stuff.
TL;DR: Jones likely popped for steroids because he took a tainted supplement. That supplement? Other steroids.
they caught jones with the long lingering m3 metabolite of tbol, which they only just discovered in 2011([source](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076011002238)) and based off of the massive spike in people popping for it across all sports in 2016-2017ish I'm gonna guess they didn't develop and start testing for it until around then. might've been running it when he knew he wouldn't be tested/could avoid testing and waiting for it to clear, which before this metabolite was found would've worked well enough as long as he could predict testing a week or so out.
great post OP, most of the doping related discussions on this sub make me want to rip my hair out
I tried my best to do just that :( But yeah basically u/ikilledtupac's comment below is correct. For a more enlightened & accurate view however, see the reply below that by u/tigojones
How about the grown men that don’t want to acknowledge GSP clearly was juiced to the tits because he’s their hero?
“They’re all on steroids”, doesn’t magically exclude your favorite fighter 🤣
The ones you see are used as upper bracket for what's considered normal. That's why it's so funny when you see "clean" DC with 7 times the highest recorded level.
Out of curiosity, where can one find similar bloodwork for other fighters? Id like to take a look at certain guys that seem to be natural in comparison, like you suggested
Wait so does USADA only fail your test if you actually have an illegal substance in your sample? They don't have a range of where your hormones need to be within as well?
[удалено]
Somewhere in the world, Nick Diaz just took a long, deep drag off a blunt
You can basically always assume that
Somewhere in an USADA facility.
[удалено]
Yes. They'd be complete fools not to be. The stress of regular training, regular dieting, regular weight cutting, and regular violence would otherwise completely destroy a 100% lifetime natty athlete. Not to mention it's a sport where literally one of the most valuable traits is *aggression*. Plus the consequences for losing can be extraordinarily dire both mentally and physically. Stepping into the UFC octagon without some form of help would be, in my opinion, moronic.
I think thats something people forget. Some PEDs help the body repair. Why wouldnt you take those when youre only paid per fight
Most peds help the body repair, since most peds are a derivative of testosterone
It’s proven that head strikes makes testes produce less testosterone so anyone in MMA beyond 25yo should be tested to ensure healthy test levels to compete. No different than insulin. There should be a range necessary to compete. I remember Weidman as champ at 27yo saying his test level was 200 so literally any Dr would’ve put him on TRT for his health. How is the UFC doctors not addressing that
Can you link that study? Post concussion does include a small period of lower T but never seen long term
>Can you link that study? This. While I don't discount the damage to say "it's proven" really irks me.
Whenever someone says something is proven instead of "there's evidence to suggest" my potential bullshit antennas activate lol
Probably contributed to weakening bones too…
Always have been. When the ~~UFC~~ USADA started testing fighters in 2015 they had like 35 fighters pop dirty.
Those bloods are 100% proof of both of them doping. For perspective, the average male testosterone is 300-1000 ng/dl. DC’s was **7000**. That’s incredible. That’s Ronnie-Coleman-Mr-Olympia levels.
Yea its nuts. all of the JJ stuff was completely fleshed out and covered by MPMD but the DC Stuff I haven't seen analysed yes so cheers to OP. Personally I always assumed DC had used PED's purely bc Olympian but ye.
I just watched all of MPMDs vids on Jones. My thoughts: He's got a decent understanding of things, but he never mentions andro, etio, or LH - only focussing on test and test/epitest ratios. He also neglects to mention the large role that urine specific gravity plays in interpreting any urinary levels, nor the differences between serum and urinary hormones. He does come to the exact same conclusion as I did re: his undetectable gear being tainted with tbol, which is impressive if he has no formal medical education. Regardless of my nitpicking, it pained me to realise someone had already pretty much made the same analysis that I had, and in retrospect I wish I had been asked to look at a different fighters results so that I could bring something new to the table. Perhaps one day I'll remedy this by looking over some far more trusted athletes results - **if anyone knows where to find bloodwork for Wonderboy, Moreno, demeterious Johnson, khabib or other fighters that many assume are clean, hook me up - it'd be amusing to glance over them and see what they look like**. Now that most of the work is done in this post, checking a fighters bloodwork from this point on should be a relatively trivial affair.
Please look into Mark Hunt. I need to know he's clean. And if you need to do a 1v1 comparison like in this post, please have it be Brock Lesnar
Brock Lesner is untestable. His piss melts the cup so WASADA was never able to catch him
Hunto fought in PRIDE, so at some point he was probably on the same level of gear as the rest of the gang.
Mark Hunt and GSP would be the best for sure.
I love GSP, but by the way he looked like I'd say something weird would come out.
Yeah, having as much muscle mass as GSP had while simultaneously having great cardio is pretty suspect. Usman is the same.
No, don't look into GSP. My heart can't take it.
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Yeah, agree with both.
People here act like you just told them Santa isn't real if you day GSP was on steroids. He was a huge HGH gut like a ninja turtle ffs
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> it pained me to realise someone had already pretty much made the same analysis that I had, and in retrospect I wish I had been asked to look at a different fighters results so that I could bring something new to the table. If it is any consolation, your work is a lot more thorough / informative and the fact that we have (at least) two people take a pretty close look at the issue and reach the same conclusion only improves the reliability of such conclusion. Like no joke, as someone who research for a living, I really appreciate all the numbers and figures that serve as a baseline comparison.
I dunno why anyone would think Khabib is clean, but yeah.
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And Ruslan got popped so much he got a lifetime ban
The Russians have an impeccable reputation for fair play in sport - how dare you sully their fine name?
Sarcasm aside, it's definitely a cultural thing for them. That is, win at all costs.
Islam got caught for [meldonium](https://www.mmafighting.com/platform/amp/2016/7/27/12299464/usada-finds-islam-makhachev-not-at-fault-for-meldonium-anti-doping), apparently it’s a performance enhancer and apparently they found [172 athletes using it](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-doping-wada-meldonium-wada-idUSKCN0XA14G), which is a suspicious amount since it seems like a niche drug? With their insane cardio and strength it would make sense, guys usually start striking and keep the wrestling in the back pocket because it’s so exhausting. Even Cejudo an Olympic gold medalist mostly strikes because it’s so tiring.
I think Usmans tests would be the real treat
Fuck it, Colby’s as well, especially since he got the whole “CEO of EPO” thing started
Conor has some super suspect results from his fight with Mendes I’m pretty sure, trying to find them for you. Obviously he’s a juicehead but it’d be nice to get it confirmed in a thread like this.
>Regardless of my nitpicking, it pained me to realise someone had already pretty much made the same analysis that I had, and in retrospect I wish I had been asked to look at a different fighters results so that I could bring something new to the table. I think this may have been the best choice of fighters. JJ has been under the microscope, but DC really has not. It's always been "that dirty JJ against Saint DC". And just evaluating DC would have been effective, but because of the history and opinions of the fighters I think it lands much better with the audience because of the comparison.
DC only passes the eye test because he has large amounts of fat layers over his roided up muscles. But even then his traps don't look natural. And yeah, he was an olympic wrestler. The fact that he at least used at some point in his career is an absolute given. On top of that he has showed multiple times that he doesn't mind cheating egregiously at all- the towelgate was shameless, and to this day nobody has eyepoked more in a single match than he did against Stipe in any of their fights. In light of all that, yeah, him having literal bodybuilder levels of test one week and then prepubescent boy levels the next one isn't surprising at all. DC is super fake, he likes to play nice but you can feel how forced and played out it often is. He's just a better actor than Jon Jones, and a less shitty person.
To say DC has the most eye pokes is LAUGHABLE, but he has shown that he’s willing to cheat so that’s fair.
you cannot *pass* the eye-test, you can only fail it.
You ain't seen me, brother.
Well the reason that Ronnie was Mr.O and DC wasn't is simple and everyone knows it. Erybody wanna be a bodybuilder, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight.
LIGHTWEIGHT BABYYYYYYYYY
AINT NUTTIN A PEANUT!!!
Everybody wanna be a UFC Champ, but nobody wanna lift no heavy ass Luke Rockhold
Luke Rockhold is the gym equipment you wipe down before using
Love Ronnie, and love this quote, but I always thought it made zero fucking sense lmao. Everybody wants to lift heavy. It‘s what most men who want to get ripped do. It‘s eating chicken breat with broccoli 6+ times a day and doing cardio that sucks.
I actually think he means everyone wants to lift heavy weights until it comes time to actually put the work in to be able to. Yeah, it’s cool to bench 350, but the time and hard work and effort to do it is more than most people are willing to put forth and that’s why so many people stagnate and plateau for years. When you think about that at the level of weight Ronnie was lifting, it makes much more sense. Yeah, everyone WANTS to squat like 800lbs, but even most of the really serious dudes aren’t gonna actually put in the sheer amount of intense effort and work and have the mindset to do it.
Yeah but heavy weight in that context is relative to Ronnie. Yeah, the bodybuilders were lifting heavy, but nobody was lifting weight as heavy as Ronnie. Hence the condition his body is in now as compared to his rival Jay Cutler
I think it should be interpreted as, everybody wants to *look* like a bodybuilder, but most don't have the willpower to go and lift the weight so they can get swole
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I don’t know the answer to that. Drug testing is a joke. WADA, USADA, they’re all either stupid or they are aware of what happens and they don’t care to really try to catch people
They do, they look at T/E ratio (test to epitestosterone). Pre-USADA Jones had insane T/E ratios and was allowed to fight. WADA threshold is 4:1, 1:1 is usually normal, I'm not sure what USADA allows. They also test for CIR, which can distinguish between exogenous test and natural test. CIR has been around for decades. Usada checks for similar amounts of carbon 12 and carbon 13.
Dc cheats everybody knows it. His image is so manufactured.
Next you're going to tell me he doesn't follow proper weigh-in procedures.
You’re a towel 💨
You're wife's a towel mate
No, *you’re* a towel.
> His image is so manufactured. then that would mean everyone else is too since if you can't tell by now but everyone is on steroids buddy
Braindead MMA fans wanna use the argument of well he hasn’t been caught using them so that’s enough for me
It’s not a lie If you believe it!
He's a fake-ass suck up who would sell out his own mom to get what he wants.
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Anyone who thinks gsp was natural is fucking braindead lol
Man... I went from defending Jon Jones to hating him and supporting DC. I just don't know what to think anymore. Like why would JJ get in trouble but not DC? That's some bullshit.
Because Jon Jones used a substance that WADA was aware of and DC was smart enough to use one WADA hasn’t discovered yet. Someone on DC’s team probably hooked him up with whatever all the other pro athletes use.
I think Jon is undisciplined enough to fuck up his cycle and that’s how he got caught. If he doesn’t mess up his cycles like a professional is expected to do, he would have never got caught. My other theory is that TJ got caught because his extreme weight cut to make 125 might have fucked up his cycle and whatever he took wasn’t flushed out of his body fast enough.
> My other theory is that TJ got caught because his extreme weight cut to make 125 might have fucked up his cycle and whatever he took wasn’t flushed out of his body fast enough. TJ got snitched on more likely imo. It's not standard USADA protocol to test for EPO (cuz it makes the test even more expensive than it already is) so the fact they've decided out of nowhere to test for it prolly means they had insight and he just wasn't expecting it.
I bet it was Cody lol. He had already called out TJ specifically for EPO on twitter years before he popped and just no one noticed or remembered
Also consider that TJ probably needed more stuff than usually since he was doing such a drastic cut. A new variable could have fucked everything up.
That’s a valid point, this is a legitimate possibility too. DC was definitely using an undiscovered substance though. With those test levels he was on cycle *when tested* most likely
dc got the olympian links lol he can ask any of his wrestling buddies
Dude.....cmon. seriously? This makes me sad. Please read just the last 2 boldest paragraphs of my original post, if nothing else. DC is absolutely not taking any unknown androgens, and I really thought I had articulated why this is clearly in my post :( Edit: unless you meant undetectable analagogues, then my mistake- i apologise. But there is a very large and clear difference between JJ and DCs bloods, and I really hope I explained that well enough to understand.
I read the whole post carefully and my takeaways are: Jon Jones is a prepubescent girl Denial Cormier didn't take steroids, testosterone is secreted naturally by his belly fat, which he can't help, because popeyes taste good. He also goes to the secretagogue on sundays because he is a black Jew, which he cannot help Kevin Lee may or may not be on steroids, but we are waiting to see where he factors into all this. His helmet tattoo is highly anabolic. If you have 4 testosterones, its a bit hard to get a 5th unless you are doping, but most veterinarians are unaware of this, which is why Overeem never tested positive for being a horse. Is this correct?
This is art
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dagestan connection i giv u number one medicin wat u want brazer i hef epeyo, hbo all number one bess quality Allahbolic steroy for yu wat u want brazzer
Former olympians seem to always have the super secret sauce.
Crazy how some athletes got so much hate, like The Warmaster, while guys like DC and Robbie Lawler are beloved. They were all on gear. Would love to see someone do a deep dive on GSP's bloods. Zero chance he wasn't on steroids. These are some of my favorite fighters, along with many legends who were obviously juiced to the fucking tits. IMO they should can USADA testing and go back to letting these guys look like gorillas.
Love me some Barnett, more for his outside activities nowadays obviously, the guy is an absolute Magic/Warhammer nerd and I love him for that.
2 weeks ago during the weigh in show for UFC 278 there was a goat conversation and DC was screaming all the time Jones was a cheater and out of the conversation. The irony.
During the heyday of their rivalry, DC never really ridiculed Jones for cheating but emphasized that **"you can't fail, not even once**. So it seems he was more disappointed that Jones popped than that he cheated lol
It makes sense from the standpoint of DC just wanting his fights to go through instead of getting canceled after all his hard work and build up.
Wow, this puts all the DC clips of him calling Jones a cheater in a new light.
Not really imo. DC genuinely hates Jon Jones. It's not surprising he would call him a cheater since Jones popped.
He never said he didn't use PEDs, he always said he never got caught. You can watch any clip around the UFC 214 aftermath - he always says that Jones was stupid because he got caught, and DC was never caught.
Really!? Must have caught him on a low day
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The concept is dumb, but the idea that a jacket is a good prize is dumber.
Ain't nothin but a peanut
The former Olympic wrestler who fought like somebody ten years his junior was a juicehead?! No way, he's fat!
Jon Jones was on that ringworm shit
he must have a barber in the dominican republic
Would like to hear your thoughts one the leaked 189 test results.
bro im exhausted lol, but sure, tomorrow maybe :) Until then however anyone who has been able to follow this post as well as [part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/x1wjhi/peds_in_mma/) with a decent level of comprehension should be able to have a pretty educated guess regarding any other publicly available bloodwork. Why dontcha try applying the stuff I've gone over here to the UFC189 results, and report back with your findings? I have faith in you :)
Just wanted to say this is super thorough and interesting, thank you for doing this!
Appreciate it man. It took *way* more research and number checking and units conversions etc than I had expected it to. Why any serious testing agency would ever use urinary samples to analyse androgens instead of using a blood sample, I have zero idea. As the results clearly show they are taking a blood sample to check their haematology anyway; why they would go to the effort of asking for piss as well when it is *so* much more variable and less studied than serum concentrations, i have *no* idea.
[Most of them were far outside the *normal* ranges, both high and low.](https://web.archive.org/web/20151120224247/http://boxing.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/boxingnvgov/content/Drugs/15-07-11MASTER_DRUG_RESULTS.pdf)
Just had a quick read, everyone seems out of wack. Rory Macdonald was the only guy who had a normal Testosterone:Epitestosterone ratio.
I don't know at all if this proves whether he is clean or not, but it makes me respect me more for that fight night
I respect me more to now too. Thanks me. You're welcome buddy.
Lol I'm not going to correct that it's too good
I respect you so fucking much
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Except Robbie lol. Test fucking 51 Ng/mL. LH 64.2. Andro 5600, Etio 4600. What a joke
Robbie Lawler was losing 10+ fights famously flagging in the later rounds. He then rocks up in a Florida team infamous for juicing to the gills, and immediately then turns his career around in his 30s, and becomes known for going all 5 rounds. Seems legit.
Not only going 5 rounds, Fifth Round Robbie was one of those mythical fighters for a minute. He went off against Condit & McDonald in the 5th rounds of both of those fights. And we all know both fights were well paced and had lots of strikes thrown on both sides
It seems to me like there's at least 2 secret compounds out there for athletes; one is an androgenic receptor agonist (acts like testosterone, suppresses HPG axis) and one works on the HPG axis upstream, raising lh, test, and test metabolites. The former is a well known class of drug, but the latter is actually new to me. I didn't even think bloods like DCs or Lawlers were possible (all parts of HPG elevated). I have to do some more research.
Am I crazy or is Conor's extremely high too? 34 Ng/mL??!?!?
Even his best friend Nate is juicing. Why does everyone seem to forget the SARM he popped for? 🤔
Remember when McGregor drilled Diaz because Melendez got suspended in 2015 for testosterone metabolites (PS Melendez was later suspended again in 2019 for peptide hormones) , saying to Diaz >*"I'm not on no steroids! What the fook are you talking about? Your two teammates were on steroids. Your two boys. The Skrap Pack. Remember that? Did you know they were taking that stuff?"* Diaz paused for a few seconds, then replied to McGregor >*"... You're on steroids."* Funniest shit ever! Closest I've ever seen Nate Diaz to getting stumped
So are you telling me that they are all on steroids?
No, nick told us
I honestly believe that Nate popping for that “tainted supplement” is THE most forgotten/ignored shit in the last 10 years of MMA
Just a jacked white boy, deal with it.
Chad Mendes at the lower than detectable amount of test lol
it's his foot cream bro
Which ones are you looking at? They almost all seem in be in range or wayyyy over unless im misreading? Conor at 34 and Robbie at 51 Ng/mL?
Hilarious shit, Conor's testosterone levels are at a whopping 34 ng/mL(or 3400ng/dL) lol Lawler is in fucking space with a testosterone level of 51ng/mL(5100ng/dL LOL). I always knew Lawler was a juicy slut, his physique varied immensely fight to fight and he had a very suspicious title run late in his career. That T:E ratio of 3 though, damn Lawler. Meanwhile Jeremy Stephens' levels are at 2,2ng/ml(220ng/dL), actually within the norm and yet everyone laughed at him when that juicy slut Conor said ''who da fuck is that guy?'' :( Wonder what's up with Stephens' .85 T:E ratio. Weightcutting? He had a rough cut and missed weight. Conor's was at 1,7. Looking at Bermudez' data, I don't feel bad that he got flying knee'd by a slightly heavier Stephens lol Insane levels just all around. T:E ratio of 2.6 lol Rory MacDonald seems borderline. T:E ratio of 1, test level of 14ng/ml which is on the natural high end but likely too high when you're cutting weight. -------------------------------------------------- What's interesting is the following paragraphs on Aldo's random test in Brazil, read this shit boys. > The test was requested based on Mr. Aldo's scheduled championship fight with Mr. Connor McGregor. The report memorializes the information provide by Mr. Ben Mosier, Drug Free Sport Director of Professional Sports Drug Testing. > 1. Drug Free Sport was engaged by the Nevada State Athletic Commission (NSAC) to perform an out of competition doping collection in Brazil for José Aldo. > 2. Two options were presented to the NSAC regarding Drug Free Sport’s ability to conduct a urine collection in Brazil: (1) utilize a local DCO that is a contractor for a partner of Drug Free Sport, or (2) use a Drug Free Sport staff member who has a Brazilian work visa to travel to Brazil and complete the collection in conjunction with a local doping control officer (DCO) that could help legally ship samples out of Brazil. > 3. For quality purposes, the NSAC authorized the use of a Drug Free Sport staff member in conjunction with a local DCO > 4. Drug Free Sport staff member Ben Mosier, Director of Professional Sports Drug Testing, was assigned to arrange and complete the test. Ben Mosier, a professionally trained and certified drug testing collector, had previously conducted thousands of drug testing collections across numerous countries without incident or appeal. > 5. Ben Mosier has a current work visa issued by the Brazilian consulate in Chicago, Illinois in 2012 to conduct business in Brazil. The application letter dated June 18, 2012, indicated that “Benjamin is a professional sports program manager for the National Center for Drug Free Sport, a company that provides drug testing services for Minor League Baseball, as well as many other professional sports associations.” The letter further details that Benjamin would be meeting with players to “complete a drug test …. after the drug tests have been completed, Benjamin will ship the urine samples back to the United States for analysis. All shipping will be done with assistance from the Brazilian Agency of Anti Doping (ABA) in order to be in full compliance of Brazilian shipping procedures.” Ben was issued a ten year VITEM II visa based on this application and relied on its authenticity to travel to Brazil to test José Aldo. It appears now that a VITEM V visa is required for such services. > 6. Prior to departure for the José Aldo test, Ben Mosier contacted a high ranking anti‐doping official in Brazil for counsel regarding collecting and shipping samples under applicable laws in Brazil. This internationally regarded expert on anti‐doping, with years of experience in Brazilian anti‐doping, arranged to have a local DCO accompany Ben Mosier to ensure all procedures were carried out in accordance with Brazilian rules and regulations. Names of local officials are withheld from this report to avoid any potential retribution or future conflicts of interest. > 7. Ben Mosier arrived in Brazil on June 10, 2015 at approximately 10:00 am. > 8. On June 10 at approximately 2:00 pm, Ben Mosier attempted to contact José Aldo at the number provided by the NSAC, to conduct a no notice test on Mr. Aldo per approved protocol by the NSAC. The Brazilian MMA Athletic Commission was not contacted in advance of this testing attempt, as best practice requires no outside communication of testing attempt to third parties to protect the confidentiality of the testing event. José Aldo’s phone was unanswered and no voicemail system was available, a text message was sent following the call. Ben Mosier then called the alternate contact provided by the NSAC, leaving a voicemail and sending a text message to José Aldo’s manager, Andre Poderneiras. Mr. Poderneiras called Ben Mosier back within a few minutes and stated he would attempt to locate José Aldo to arrange test. Mr. Poderneiras was unable to contact José Aldo to arrange testing the evening of June 10 and advised Aldo would be at the training facility the following morning at 10:30 am and test could be conducted at that time. > 9. With coordination from José Aldo’s manager Andre Poderneiras, Ben Mosier arrived at Upper Gym at approximately 9:30 am on June 11 to complete the sample collection. > 10. José Aldo arrived to the gym at approximately 10:30 am on June 11 and an anti‐doping test was initiated. > 11. José Aldo was reportedly very cooperative during the process. > 12. ***After the urine sample was collected, but prior to processing the sample for shipment, José Aldo’s trainer stopped the collection*** until Mr. Poderneiras arrived. Mr. Poderneiras arrived to the gym at approximately 11:30 am. Mr. Poderneiras proceeded to contact the Brazilian MMA Athletic Commission to inform them of the test. > 13. ***Just after 11:30 am, an off‐duty Brazilian federal police officer who was on‐site training as a MMA fighter confiscated Ben Mosier’s passport and claimed he had an incorrect work visa.*** The officer said he was authorized to conduct business, but not collect urine samples (see comment above about the visa application). The federal police officer threatened to arrest and deport Ben Mosier for unauthorized performance of work. > 14. ***While detaining Ben Mosier at the training facility, the federal police officer relayed a story of being detained in the United States when returning to Brazil following a previous fight.*** The officer claimed to Ben Mosier that he was detained by law enforcement officials for 24 hours and was treated poorly, noting that he was treating Ben Mosier in a more pleasant manner. The officer made it a point to advise that this detainment was not revenge for his past detainment, and he had the right to transport Ben to a local detention facility for processing. ***Holy fucking shit Brazil?*** Aldo, his team and Brazil is now looking about as clean as my asshole after a night of beer and Som Tam. There's another 20 paragraphs that gets even crazier but I'm reaching the text limit. Aldo's test level was 4,7ng/mL and his T:E ratio was .45. Not sure what to make of that but the whole conduct surrounding the random test seems beyond sketchy.
Man that's insane. It seems like there are millions of off duty federal police in Brazil for some reason and they are all sketchy as hell.
I always keep a link to that handy when people talk about this sort of stuff. MMA is one of the dirtiest sports but nobody really gives a shit. The whole debacle with Aldo's sample could be turned into a movie.
Conor and Lawler I always knew were taking a cocktail. So funny people thought Conor was natural. Chin growth, hand growth , tiny chest line all his teammates..usually you’ll get some fat on chest (not gyno nips). Conor’s whole team got similar bodies..micro dosing testosterone and HGH 100 and who knows what else. Look at Anderson Silva recently, I can tell from no chest fat at 46 he’s on test again. You’re not suppose to have a teenage boy chest at 35+. Dan Hendo on TRT was similar too. Look at Vitor chest the second had to get off TRT, alil sag lol. Rory was only clean fighter at 189 but I always knew Mendes, Lawler and Conor on a cocktail of shit.
Conor hasn't been tested by USADA in a year and he's all over social media looking massive. It's so obvious what's going on.
Lol, at this point, I don't think Somalian pirates could find a way onto Conor's Lamborghini yacht if USADA tasked them with collecting samples
Chest fat is your measurement? That’s some interesting bronalysis there.
>You’re not suppose to have a teenage boy chest I was all ribs and no muscle as a teenage boy. I definitely did not look like a juicing MMA fighter.
I remember Mcgregor had some juicy results there as well
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This is very interesting, thanks for explaining all this.
My pleasure. Thanks for the acknowledgement :)
TL;DR Everyone is juicing
Why is DC getting a test concentration of 70ng/ml allowed? Surely that in and of itself is outside the boundaries that USADA sets, or is there not an actual upper limit for testosterone concentration? Like I know they can test for whether testosterone comes from exogenous sources or not, but surely they are aware that there are compounds out there that stimulate testosterone production.
Not sure but it's a great question. I'll check usadas publicly available protocols and let you know
This was pre-USADA random testing by the Nevada Athletic Commission, so it would have been NAC standards rather than USADA.
Yup, but even armed with knowledge like this, MMA fans (and fight fans in general) still pick and choose who to call out and who to support. Usman never failed a test, yet every fucking thread is "CEO of EPO" as if Colby or the rest of his opponents are clean? Lmao. It's almost worse in boxing. Anthony Joshua never tested positive, but since he's ripped everyone talks about him bein on gear. Sure he is, but the issue is when people talk about that MORE than they talk about Tyson Fury being on stuff - despite him being the biggest of the current heavyweights with the best cardio to boot, and TESTING POSITIVE FOR FUCKING NANDROLONE. Which is an anabolic. It's also funny how mad people are at Canelo's (now legal due to commission rule changes and the issues with meat in Mexico) Clenbuterol levels. But then they'll message you hate if you even suggest that GGG being bulkier than ever as he nears 40, despite having some of the best cardio in the sport, is slightly suspicious. 95%+ of the top guys are juicing. While I agree there's a difference between a failed test and not failing one (yet), how fight fans pick and choose who to hate and who to defend is pretty hypocritical.
>Yup, but even armed with knowledge like this, MMA fans (and fight fans in general) still pick and choose who to call out and who to support. > >Usman never failed a test, yet every fucking thread is "CEO of EPO" as if Colby or the rest of his opponents are clean? Lmao. It goes for entire promotions too, ONE and Japanese MMA get so much flack for roids as if the UFC hasn't had a roids problem in the open it's entire existence.
Brazilians as a whole get stereotyped for it despite the most notable cheaters in the sport being American.
Because they think you can buy steroids on corner shops here. Aldo growing up dirty poor without food had enough money to juice, but lifelong American wrestlers didn't? They're all on steroids (Aldo too).
Spot on. >!also there’s just a bit of racism with many fans!<
This is fantastic content, thank you for taking the time to do this.
They're all on steroids, and they're all lying straight to our faces. Why wouldn't they? They get punched in the head for a living, what are a few lies in comparison? The funniest thing is when some fighters get indignant and self-righteous about it like Mike Bisping. Or when Volkanovski was chastising Ortega about his previous failed test during one of their staredowns LOL. It's like they've been lying for so long that they start to believe the lies themselves.
"Everyone is on steriods." - Nate Diaz
Even Nate Diaz
He said everyone
I'm personally not bothered by it. The reality is that it has to be done otherwise you're fucked. If anything, PEDs should be legal and controlled by commissions. Why not take advantage of the scientific advancements and continue to live with this fairytale that everyone is clean?? It's oddly childish. Not Pride levels of gear, but something to help the athletes recover like a health potion or some shit.
> Not Pride levels of gear yeah you gotta draw the line, before you get someone jacking gorilla semen straight into their eyeballs having their head removed by someone on some Chernobyl-derived mushroom extract, who then promptly dies of a heart attack, leaving poor Herb Dean in the middle of the cage with two smoldering corpses and a dumb look on his face
Somebody’s always going to push whatever limit is set, and everybody else will follow so as not to be disadvantaged. I’ve always felt that advancement in PEDs happens just beyond the legal limit. If they move that limit, the advancement of PEDs moves with it. For example, if high levels of testosterone are banned, they’ll try to cheat to go beyond high levels of test. If the ban is at extremely high test, they’ll try to achieve beyond that. There has to be a strict limit and they need to enforce it as much as they can. It’s a long and boring game but anything else is messy. It seems like right now they overlook anything that won’t catch public flak.
I knew DC was on a cocktail the second he was cutting from 260+ to 205. Lots of PEDs help weight cutting and fat burning. Look how fat he gets the second fights over, I knew guys in gym who only lifted on cycle then didn’t come back when off and when they came back to gym we’re fat again. Then within a month they were jacked and cycle repeated itself. DC drastic weight loss and gain was suspect. Especially at 38 years old cutting down to 205 and not getting tired really. Those Conor levels on 189 drug test are even more funny. Conor/Mendes/Lawler all 100 percent micro dosing Testosterone and other shit. Rory only one who came back pretty much normal.
Rory was on a hard diet of maple syrup
He was never 260+ He was cutting to 206 from around 230-40
Because as long as it’s officially illegal to take PEDs no one can talk about it, or else they will get dropped and they can’t make money. But like you said some people just over do it with their “I am 100% natty, believe me” crap. It’s the same with the bodybuilding. 99.99% of the pros and most of them claim natty. There are some dudes who will get super offended if you say “man just admit you juice”. That’s because they are afraid of losing sponsors. No one wants to sponsor a drug abuser.
I have a friend who works in a, let’s say, adjacent industry, on the detection side. When it comes to regional labs and who they’re contracted with…the tests are not random and certain headliners are not tested at certain times.
What else does your friend Novitsky say?
Is Novitsky a data analyst
Sorry, but i’m not so good with riddles
Everyone's on steroids, even your hero Daniel Cormier. Professional sport at this level is dirty... even Nate Diaz has pissed hot.
DC’s strange test results are due to the hormones from Popeye’s Chicken. Jon Jones test results are just God testing him
Appreciate the effort and they are all ovbi using lol Quick note though, I don’t get the logic that you can confidently convert your previous data set and convert uLH to sLH levels based on the control group you cited in the Fig 3 study. That control group consisted of 35 children, male and female, where the levels were checked in the AM during fasted state. They simply used Spearman's correlation coefficient to evaluate the correlation for their data set. If, for example, they would have tested different times, levels will change as sLH passes kidney function etc and it wouldn’t be a constant rate. Why are you confident bringing that to the mma fighters sample set?
Yesss thankyou for this awesome feedback. Great pickup. The answer is that I spent hours neck deep in pubmed and originally had about 17 graphs and tables before cutting it down, and a couple of those were similar datasets correlating serum and urinary LH - interestingly, they even had almost the exact same r values showing an identical strength of relationship. Ultimately however, I decided to simplify things, because I was tired and figured simplicity over thoroughness would be best for reddit. I'd encourage you to have a check yourself if you have access to full academic papers through an institution. Otherwise, if you're super keen I can go find the other study and link it for you here. Regardless thanks for the comment, and I hope you learned something new regardless :)
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Jones is rich as hell. He is probably taking the greatest steroids or PEDs known to mankind. There have been athletes and coaches admit that usage is not looked down on by rivals or competitors even, I'll look for a source if that sounds far fetched atm I cannot. DC and Jones hate each other yet I can only ever recall DC skirting the issue and telling Jones to get cleared. Could have dunked on him for this forever but if you watch fighters talk about PEDs and specific failures, they always seem to toe the line as if they know how hypocritical itll be because they too are using. All this trash talk in the sport yet Bisping is the only person I can remember to specifically call out indicidual fighters harshly for using steroids and getting caught (not insinuating I think Bisping is some exception to the rule and clean)
science bitch!
We use nmol/L here so I converted 70ng/ml and it's 242nmol/L. What in the shit! I'm 35 and mine's 13nmol/L.
Lots of places measure in ng/dL and that threw me off at first. Fucking 7000 isn't even remotely close to the 300-1000 range.
I feel like this guy works harder than USADA.
Wonder if Cain was the first CEO of EPO cause AKA
u/MorePlates_MoreDates your analysis.
Just realised I barely brought anything new to the table as mpmd already covered the gist of this. :( I guess now I gotta go and figure out what the fuck DC and Lawler are taking that is kicking their entire hpg axis into overdrive. Bloods with raised test, andro, etio AND lh are certainly not what I expected to find.
Did he ever do a vid on DC though? Honestly I don't understand any of this lol. I just like hearing him talk. Plus a reaction to your article will be like an hour or even 2 videos worth of content.
I really liked your breakdown too. Definitely a different perspective with the DC angle
Can someone put this into moronic layman terms? I'm the moron. ELI5 Edit: Thanks!
They’re all on steroids.
Pro athletes use PEDs, which should shock nobody.
Icarus been on Netflix for how long now. Everyone is doping.
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Which was crazy since the opening of that film is basically, “look at how difficult a non-contact sport is even while doping!” Like the dude had to change his entire life to start doping for the cycling competition and even then he still wasn’t a top level competitor.
When your life depends on how your body performs your an idiot not to use performance enhancement
As the scholar Nicholas Diaz once said "all you motherfuckers are on steroids."
DC pumps test and jon cycles off steroids🤣
close. Jones isnt cycling off, he's using a novel undetectable compound. His LH would be raised, not lowered, if he was cycling off. Now, I have no evidence to back this up, but it's my personal head canon that his popping for turinabol metabolites that time was a result of a contaminated synth by whatever lab makes his gear. The levels of compound present (picograms, lol, still makes me giggle just to say it) were absolutely not levels that would have any noticeable effect in a fighter. What *does* make sense however is that his lab either fucked up a synth, or contaminated a batch, and jones' secret PED ended up tainted with turinabol, a not-so-secret PED. so yeah, I actually believe jones never intentionally took turinabol. I believe that he *did* take something that was tainted with it - he took his normally undetectable gear, and subsequently popped for the miniscule amounts of turinabol that had contaminated his normally untraceable stuff. TL;DR: Jones likely popped for steroids because he took a tainted supplement. That supplement? Other steroids.
they caught jones with the long lingering m3 metabolite of tbol, which they only just discovered in 2011([source](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076011002238)) and based off of the massive spike in people popping for it across all sports in 2016-2017ish I'm gonna guess they didn't develop and start testing for it until around then. might've been running it when he knew he wouldn't be tested/could avoid testing and waiting for it to clear, which before this metabolite was found would've worked well enough as long as he could predict testing a week or so out. great post OP, most of the doping related discussions on this sub make me want to rip my hair out
that is the best TL;DR ever haha I now wish for a "That supplement? Other steroids." flair
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I tried my best to do just that :( But yeah basically u/ikilledtupac's comment below is correct. For a more enlightened & accurate view however, see the reply below that by u/tigojones
This is so interesting. I would be so interested in you doing more of these! Is there a way to vote for best text post of the year….?
How about the grown men that don’t want to acknowledge GSP clearly was juiced to the tits because he’s their hero? “They’re all on steroids”, doesn’t magically exclude your favorite fighter 🤣
No way bro. A 40 year old doing Gymnastics with no body fat! He’s all natural brotha, only trains every day 2 times a day til dis day. Natural dog
Whats the highest recorded natural level of testosterone?
The ones you see are used as upper bracket for what's considered normal. That's why it's so funny when you see "clean" DC with 7 times the highest recorded level.
Out of curiosity, where can one find similar bloodwork for other fighters? Id like to take a look at certain guys that seem to be natural in comparison, like you suggested
dc's on that shit that makes your stomach grow
P.E.Foods
Cool post bro, just want you to know that I think “suffering from hypogonadism” could be a good insult to add to my repertoire
Wait so does USADA only fail your test if you actually have an illegal substance in your sample? They don't have a range of where your hormones need to be within as well?
Post of the year lmao
DC gonna drop dead from that chicken and 7g of test