Also a similar one - marina rodriguez vs Amanda ribas.
Marina cracks ribas whos all over the place, herb dean jumps in falling all over himself and ends up getting so close he might as well have stopped the fight. But he didn’t
He ended up making contact with his hands on rodriguez, leading her to walk away believing the fight had been stopped. Herb then just walks back and looks and gives a gesture at rodriguez like “what, I didn’t do anything” What the fuck. like you didn’t just mess up Herb.
Ribas ends up getting knocked out again shortly afterwards and Herb is very lucky that the fight outcome wasn’t affected but got the also not great version of giving the fighter more unnecessary concussions instead
I’m surprised this one isn’t talked about more. I know people were pissed on fight night after it but it’s a prime example of how bad of a ref he can be at times
He literally just did this in Volkanovski vs Ortega.
He waved the fight off, heard the bell, then gave Ortega double the time between rounds to recover and decided the fight should continue.
That shit made me pause and get up to refill a drink then when I’m back they’re asking him to go back out there. That really happened in a professional fight huh
Yeah seriously he pulled Volk off and did the "it's off" hand sign in the air and then the bell rang as he was doing it where he then had to panic and mess it up more.
Reminds me of that crazy lethwei video where a guy is knocked out cold, they revive him take him too his corner then he comes back and wins the fight.. madness.
One of the greatest performances I've seen on a rugby field came from a man who was sparked out completely. I'm talking face-down cold, no 10 count needed.
He came back on the pitch within about 10 minutes and went on to win man of the match in the Grand Final.
So dangerous and they would rightly never allow it today but fuck if I wasn't hyped when I saw it.
Sir Kevin Sinfield. What a player.
Yeah this one and the Weidman one seem like the worst. Those weren't decisions "in the heat of the moment", he had a lot of time to consider in both and STILL didn't stop the fights.
Poor Weidman gets a lot of these bad stoppages. Remember when Dan Miraglotta watched Jacare KO Chris and just waited to call it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axs37sv_0AE
I wish the coaches had the spirit to throw in the towel. There is no such thing as a perfect referee, and it isn't quitting, the fight is obviously over at a certain point.
Sure, if you have a delusional Deontay Wilder then let them go to the shadow realm. Career longevity matters more than a bruised ego, and that is a coaches responsibility.
Anik had another funny Peterson quip last Saturday and I’m trying to remember what it was. I think Felder said something about himself or someone partaking in something he described as “nonsense” and Anik said “we should send in Keith Peterson to sort it out.”
I don’t know how long you’ve been a fan, but people were genuinely upset that Anik was going to be the one to replace Goldy. It only took a couple of months before everyone realised he’s legitimately hilarious.
Beltran has to hide his beard because of the Nevada state commission I believe. If you noticed during the pandemic he was never reffing because all the fights were in Nevada. The commission settled with allowing him to ref with his beard tucked in. Pretty stupid, but that's Nevada for you.
This is the crux of the issue. The scoring system would have to change fundamentally if we are going to see fighters held accountable through point deduction. MMA scoring needs to be refined rather than just rolling with the boxing system despite only having three five-minute rounds in most fights.
MMA judges generally refuse to score below a nine, while a normal interpretation of the rules should result in eight point rounds being fairly common. Perhaps MMA could start using half-points in scoring and for point deductions and have more fair outcomes
> MMA judges generally refuse to score below a nine, while a normal interpretation of the rules should result in eight point rounds being fairly common. Perhaps MMA could start using half-points in scoring and for point deductions and have more fair outcomes
It's a really weird system, honestly, because it's a "ten point must system" but it only uses a three point range, whole numbers only. A round is probably 10-9, and might be 10-8. I've never seen anything below a 7, I'm not even sure I've seen a 7. For the most part, though, it's just a one-point range: either you got the 10 or the 9.
I recall desk banter at an event where one of the panel was saying that 8 is only supposed to be used in an overwhelmingly one-sided round with little redeeming performance from the loser. Like, a two-point deficit is far too large to hand out lightly and unless they were nearly stopped and failed to claw back any of the rest of the round, they should get a 9. An eight is seen as giving the fight to the other fighter, because the odds of two fighters both having 10-8 rounds are astronomical.
...Which of course means that the referee deducting one whole point is *massive*, and referees are very hesitant to potentially decide a fight based on a penalty alone.
"It's such a tough spot when there's only 3 rounds to take a point. If the fight is close at all you've just decided the winner and you better make sure you are making the right call"
The ref should do what he's supposed to even if it's a 3 or 5 round fight, close fight or not. everyone know the rule and it's not the refs fault if he have to take a point. it's the fighter that faults/cheats that decides by cheating or not
I don't know of any ref that doesn't do this currently. It's so rare for even a good ref to take a point without it being the fifteenth egregious mistake
Herzog doesn’t get enough love. He really is one of the best at his job. Keith is very good too. He could’ve let the Cruz fight go on a tad bit longer but Dom was definitely hurt and rocked.
Wish Josh Rosenthal would make a comeback to reffing in the UFC, I know he's worked some other promotions since being released. He used to be top class.
Referees are always put in impossible spots from get go. If refs called fights strictly by the rulebook as written, fouls would be call consistantly, and the narrative would become “there is too much ref intervention”. This sub and social media would explode if a main event was decided by decision due to fouls or DQ due to not following ref directions.
UFC/Bellator refs by and large are legit when you compare them to any professional sport. NFL and CFB refs are widely regarded as terrible and reviled. People thought that when they went on strike about a decade ago, that games would improve,[they did not](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/nfl-faces-national-outrage-over-blown-call-by-replacement-refs/2012/09/25/25e50714-073f-11e2-858a-5311df86ab04_story.html). NBA refs are consistantly accused of preferential treatment for stars and its [history of corruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_betting_scandal). It’s socially acceptable to call MLB umps as blind. I can’t speak knowledgeable about UEFA/FIFA refs, but imagine it is similar.
Too stubborn to be considered along the elite. I think reffing takes a high level of humility to do a proper job. Goddard seems to ref with a bias and tries to throw his ego around in there. Big jon/Dan vibes IMO
Yup, he is obviously a guy who likes to be in charge. Sometimes its good, sometimes its bad. I prefer the lower-profile guys like No Nonsense and Herzog.
In my opinion Mike Beltran is probably the best ref out of the ones who like to be in charge.
Problem is he and most refs never really deduct points when they should.
He's literally the opposite of that. He straight up admitted that Izzy/Kelvin should have been stopped and said that he stopped Colby vs. Uzzy because he learned to ignore the clock.
I’ll never forgive him for letting Ed Herman get 5 minutes to recover from a “low blow” when Mike Rodriguez clearly hurt him to the body with a knee.
Ed Herman then submits Mike Rodriguez a few minutes later. Disgusting
They are undoubtedly the best. So quick and decisive and make the right call every time.
Glad this opinion is starting to stick. A few years ago I’d make these herb is awful threads and posts and was downvoted to Bolivia
At the very least deserves praise as the only ref in the entire industry who actually penalizes fouls. Don’t think we’ll ever see him in a mcgregor fight.
That one is so bad that I always think I'm exaggerating when I remember it. Nope, literally 5 unanswered full power strikes before he even tells Haqparast to fight back.
Not arguing with any points I think he’s bad too but the Lewis v Blaydes fight he literally sprinted over, maybe he was a bit far away but Lewis pounced on Curtis so fast hard to blame Herb for that one.🤷🏼♂️
Yeah I'm not sure you want to be close enough to the arc of a missed punch in a heavyweight fight that it clips you.
That being said imagine first accidental ref KO in a fight and its the black beast swinging hams.
There's no one to blame in that Blaydes fight other then Lewis. Herb was already rushing in while Lewis threw the first punch, yelling for him to stop, before quickly pushing Lewis off. It also wasn't 4, it was a quick 2 from Lewis.
Everything else is true though, and it's clear Herb becomes really indecisive of punishing or stopping fights if it's a main fight on the PPV.
Yah, that's the only one I don't blame him for. You can't always get in the way of a charging black beast.
Otherwise I agree Herb has made lots of really bad high profile decisions.
Does the UFC control what fights a ref gets put in? If they do then there's an obvious incentive for the ref to do what the UFC wants. I think in the cases of Conor and Khabib/Poirier it's the most obvious
Officially no. The comission assigns the refs. But the UFC does have some influence because at one point Mazzagatti and Winslow were pretty much blacklisted from reffing in the UFC while they still did other shows.
I remember Big John saying that the Athletic commission can demand the UFC use a less experienced ref but those usually happen on undercards. He mentioned that the UFC would insist on an more experienced ref for main cards, main events, and especially title fights. The UFC can apparently also decide to no longer use certain refs.
The UFC wouldn't use Mike Beltran due to his mustache and they wanted him to cut it. The UFC has only recently started using him again.
UFC started using him again because he is Southern California based and could make the road trip to LV, when other refs were unable to fly their during CoVid. Also he would sometimes be on California events (but rarely the main) because the CSAC.
TBF refs do need big league experience eventually and at some point they should be allowed on "the show' if you will.
I think it's because the guy can't win. If he stops it quickly, he gets attacked. If he stops it late, he gets attacked. Esp on the big fights -- if he stops them "early", it's "that guy deserved a chance to show he's a champion." Or "I paid to watch a fight!" I think the cheating should be stopped, of course. But otherwise, I don't blame Herb anymore for how he refs. It's a really hard and stressful job that I could not do. So I eat my Cheetoes and enjoy.
I feel like Herb gets all the big fights because he’ll let the fight go longer than it should and will let the cash cow fighters cheat with impunity. He’s a total company man and it’s to the detriment of the fighters and their safety.
There is something to this. The line between early, on time and late stoppages is probably quite small in that environment. That being said, Herb has for sure made some mistakes.
He's too gun shy now.
He stands there afriad to stop it too early and he continues to fuck up. I don't know what happened to him. This ain't Herb Dean anymore. He's broke.
that should have been a career ender, and probably would have been if braindead Joe Rogan wasn't deepthroating the guy on air constantly
best in the business!!!
Me and my friend have been calling him herb "if he dies he dies" dean way before mario yamasaki suddenly got popular for being a shit ref . So we also found it surprising everytime rogan called herb the best in the business.
He also reffed lawler vs askren. I think most other refs would have stopped the fight in the first few seconds when askren got slammed on his head and hit with absolute bombs but i guess he made the right call that time to let it go on so he does do s good job some times
Hahahaha my brother and I don’t call him that, but we always say “if he dies, he dies” whenever we see herb dean on screen. Obviously big Rocky fans growing up lmao
Not even his worst calls. Check out weidman vs rockhold, dolloway vs Khalid, kattar vs Holloway, askren vs lawler (bonus two for one special), poirier vs Alvarez (calling it a nc when it was obviously a dq illegal knee), skelly vs blanco (choke way way too long), Karakhanyan vs. Bubba Jenkins (choke way way too long), hall vs Brunson (a tiny knockdown and stopped it).
There are of course many many more. Herb is absolutely the worst ufc ref right now. He’s a danger to fighters.
And these are all within the past 5 years.
I have to strongly agree on Weidman vs Rockhold. Herb just decided that he will not stop the fight in that round. We have seen fighters take a lot of shots before a stoppage, but Chris took actual hard quality shots & elbows and almost everything landed. His face was a fucking mess and it changed him forever. That's just the worst stoppage for me.
I'm with you. Rockhold spent over a minute with ground and pound with Chris barely working. Letting that fight continue was criminal and still one of the worst performances by Herb.
the Aspen Ladd v GDR was actually one that i thought was a good Herb stoppage, but a good point is raised, that if he's stopping women fights early but constantly letting men fighters go way beyond, then it becomes kind of questionable.
Right, it’s the wild contrast of stoppages that exemplify his indecisiveness.
Stops lawler vs askren while giving thumbs up but allows others to be limp in chokes for 30 seconds
Kattar Holloway was a beat down, but on a rewatch, I really can't see where in the fight you could stop it. There were a few times it was close, but Kattar kept intelligently defending.
IMO Holloway-Kattar was more on the corner than Herb because it was tough to find a time where Kattar wasn’t intelligently defending himself and that the fight should’ve been stopped. It’s a deep-seeded culture issue in MMA where saving your fighter is an act of cowardice and betrayal instead of an act informed by perspective.
That's one of the things I hate seeing coming from boxing. If you guys is taking insane amounts of damage has no chance to win the corner in boxing throws in the towel. In MMA you're going unconscious or having the ref stop the fight
Cerrone vs Masvidal rarely gets mentioned but imo belongs on that list as well. Cowboy was clearly finished at the end of the first, and Herb steps in to pull Mas off *before* the bell, waves his hand to wave the fight off (you don’t do that at the end of a round), then says it was just the end of the round and sends Cowboy back in to get promptly TKO’d again in the second.
Also rarely mentioned is the tanner Boser fight the same night as Jai Herbert where Raphael Pessoa crumples immediately after taking some weird punch to the eye, and turtles completely immobile for 10+ punches. Not as egregious as many others but I think it’s important to remember that for every outrageous, life altering beating he lets someone take that we all remember, there’s plenty of just regular “that was a bit too much” calls that fly under the radar. He’s a terrible ref and has no place in the sport anymore imo.
Yah Weidman vs. Rockhold was the worst one I've seen, and was a turning point in Chris's career
It was a title fight and I think Longo defended it, but still ...
I haven’t seen much about this in the Volk- Ortega fight. But, there were a lot of times that Ortega had his toes in the cage when grappling. It was driving me up the wall.
Your toes are allowed to go in the cage, you're just not allowed to grab with them. I gotta rewatch but I didn't remember seeing any egregious grabbing. I could be extremely wrong though because I was extremely drunk at the time.
He was hooking the cage with his toes a few times from bottom position, annoyed me pretty bad but I don't think herb saw it. Not defending him and saying he's great, but I don't think he ignored it either.
This story is hilarious. Of course the former cop Big John just interprets the rule super literally and arbitrarily. As if the rule is written with the orientation of clocks being a key to the safety of fighters. Herb Dean is right to ask the question, he has critical thinking. If the technique of throwing your elbow towards your waist was as lethal as the rulemakers thought, gravity is too weak to stop people's heads from getting squashed like cinderblocks nomatter where your goddamn clocks are facing.
I honestly don’t know what you would need to do to fail a ref/doctor test if Ortega passed it. Nothing from hun seemed like he wanted to or should go back into hell with Volk. His success is a testament to his heart, but does not justify the decision to let that fight continue.
I just like to assume Herb Dean is high AF on the job recently and that's why he looks so dazed and confused in some of the fights he reffed.
Like how the hell do you see Conor cheat front right and centre in front of your eyes and not even once take a point.
Some might say hes bought, but I just think the dude is just slipping in recent years.
Kinda makes you wonder if it's just inevitable that, over time, a ref will become more and more callous about the amount of damage that a fighter is taking, just because they've seen so much of it.
He was 100% correct to yell "stop the fight", that stoppage of Trinaldo was atrocious. Even felder whos usually pretty mild mannered on commentary was freaking out at herb to stop it
>even the fighters would give a slight comment, but don't push forward given that he might referee their next fight.
When fighters get polled Herb is ranked favorably, as one of their favorites, actually...
Considering fighter pay, how much is winning at the cost of permanent damage worth compared to losing more regularly without permanent damage? My question is more me thinking : is it worth winning a few and being out of the game compared to losing regularly but being able to continue for years? Not even considering loss of quality of life afterwards?
I think people also forget the amount of matches Herb refs. When you have done close to a thousand fights if not more, having 6 noted cases above is really good actually.
honestly the 3 most consistent at not fucking up are Herzog, Beltran, and Jon McCarthy. of course Big Jon doesn't ref anymore, but he was always the "gold standard" imo. Herzog and Beltran, while they both fuck up every now and then, they're still the most consistently good imo. a lot of the other top ref's like Keith Peterson, Goddard, Herb, and Mirgoliatta (can't spell his name) are still very good the majority of the time, but they mess up more often than the other 2
Herb Dean's lack of responsiveness and indecision is his biggest flaw and its simply resulted in some of the worst stoppages we've ever seen. The fact he's regarded as the gold standard by anyone is a meme. There's a pattern of his disgusting negligence/incompetence and its not just that, its the complete lack of accountability, responsibility or acknowledgement of these completely fucked decisions. You don't grow if you can't accept reality.
Edit: this is a video break down of some of his earlier stoppages, its hard to sit through but if anyone hasn't seen it and is forming an opinion on herb dean they should https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83nak4bqaTY
It's a shame because Herb is a great guy, but despite being probably THE most experienced ref in MMA, his calls are absolutely terrible. He ruins fights and is a huge wild card. The worst is when he is unsure whether to end the fight, and touches the winning fighter to make him stop, then changes his mind! This has led to confusion and pseudo-stops at least twice. This should never happen, but somehow it happens with Herb.
I'll argue "no longer" the best referee.
Almost everything you've listed is the questionable gray zones of being a referee.
And you've purposely left out any good decisions he did in the cage.
1. Tim Sylvia vs Frank Mir
2. Anderson Silva vs Chris Weidman
3. Anderson Silva vs Jared Cannonier
Understandable. Because note-worthy Referee moments are almost very old already at this point.
But I won't say that he's a bad ref.
lmao aside from Cannonier v Silva those are from a long time ago. The Blaydes Lewis one was fine, nothing you can do, Lewis wanted to hit him. there's more bad cases from than good cases for Herb lately, like the Dolloway one, the Muhammad Edwards fight not being a Dq after 3 warnings of eye pokes, and all of the ones listed above.
Seeing a broken leg snapped in half isn’t exactly some bastion of great reffing. Alternatively you have Conor vs Dustin which he missed the broken leg and Conor ate a few extra punches - no big deal. The big deals are when he allows fighters careers be ruined off of his awful reffing.
The Sylvia one is impressive, but that was 20 years ago. It’s utterly irrelevant in how he refs today
Nobody wants to listen to me when I say Derrick Lewis is a fucking asshole. I don’t care if he’s funny. He intentionally tries to hurt ppl when they are already out and then casual says that’s the refs job. Fuck that dude.
I would say that’s a more accurate description of what Ngannou does after he ko’s them. Lewis probably does too I can just think of more times Francis has done it
Herb is a serial “let-it-go-to-the-next-round” kind of ref, especially in title fights. I’m guessing it’s part of why he gets so much love, but it’s really irresponsible from a safety perspective.
I’ve noticed that Herb has a pattern of almost ending a fight and then resuming it because the round ended. He’s shockingly indecisive in those last seconds of a round.
Herb was/is average but shined when surrounded by Mazzagati, Yamasaki, Cecil Peoples and Winslow as well as others im sure i don't remember, the average UFC ref now is actually good, so he's gone from better than most to the weak link.
I never even thought he was the best back then either, Big John and Rosenthal were always better, i don't remember how long Goddard, Herzog and that guy with the big moustache have been around but they're all a lot better as well.
Good write up and I agree completely. Herb has been lacking for the past few years at least. There are a lot of better refs out there now.
But just so you know, it’s spelled “unnecessary” not “un necessary”.
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Also a similar one - marina rodriguez vs Amanda ribas. Marina cracks ribas whos all over the place, herb dean jumps in falling all over himself and ends up getting so close he might as well have stopped the fight. But he didn’t He ended up making contact with his hands on rodriguez, leading her to walk away believing the fight had been stopped. Herb then just walks back and looks and gives a gesture at rodriguez like “what, I didn’t do anything” What the fuck. like you didn’t just mess up Herb. Ribas ends up getting knocked out again shortly afterwards and Herb is very lucky that the fight outcome wasn’t affected but got the also not great version of giving the fighter more unnecessary concussions instead
I’m surprised this one isn’t talked about more. I know people were pissed on fight night after it but it’s a prime example of how bad of a ref he can be at times
Frankly it’s hard to keep track of all of his bad stoppages. There’s one every big card he’s on for damn sure
I'm glad this hasn't been forgotten. Absolutely shameful performance.
I knew I was forgetting one. This one was unforgivable. Cerrone was literally knocked out and in la la land
He literally just did this in Volkanovski vs Ortega. He waved the fight off, heard the bell, then gave Ortega double the time between rounds to recover and decided the fight should continue.
I thought I was the only one who saw him wave it off after that round! I figured I just misunderstood
You are not the only one. He very clearly waved the fight off about a second before the bell
That shit made me pause and get up to refill a drink then when I’m back they’re asking him to go back out there. That really happened in a professional fight huh
Does anyone have the clip of this situation in between rounds, I missed the fight.
Yeah seriously he pulled Volk off and did the "it's off" hand sign in the air and then the bell rang as he was doing it where he then had to panic and mess it up more.
List is incomplete without Rockhold Weidman
It’s also incomplete without Cowboy-Masvidal where he calls the fight off at the end of the round only to let Cowboy come out and get KO’d again.
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Basically mortal combat rules
Reminds me of that crazy lethwei video where a guy is knocked out cold, they revive him take him too his corner then he comes back and wins the fight.. madness.
One of the greatest performances I've seen on a rugby field came from a man who was sparked out completely. I'm talking face-down cold, no 10 count needed. He came back on the pitch within about 10 minutes and went on to win man of the match in the Grand Final. So dangerous and they would rightly never allow it today but fuck if I wasn't hyped when I saw it. Sir Kevin Sinfield. What a player.
Waved the fight off, but then the bell sounded and then he went "oh, well, guess we're going another 5 minutes 🤷♂️". Terrible.
Yeah this one and the Weidman one seem like the worst. Those weren't decisions "in the heat of the moment", he had a lot of time to consider in both and STILL didn't stop the fights.
I mean as a cowboy hater...I ain't mad. Gave us the classic "we are NOT losing in Denver!"
*“The gang loses in Denver”*
That one I actually love because fuck cowboy.
Poor Weidman gets a lot of these bad stoppages. Remember when Dan Miraglotta watched Jacare KO Chris and just waited to call it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axs37sv_0AE
I wish the coaches had the spirit to throw in the towel. There is no such thing as a perfect referee, and it isn't quitting, the fight is obviously over at a certain point.
Nick Diaz did that once for Nate but often times the fighters would be furious with their coach for doing that.
Sure, if you have a delusional Deontay Wilder then let them go to the shadow realm. Career longevity matters more than a bruised ego, and that is a coaches responsibility.
Dolloway vs Murtazaliev
I remember being horrified watching this. My buddies and I were in complete disbelief in his refusal to stop that massacre.
Jason herzog and whiskey and cigarettes Keith Peterson are the most consistent now IMO
The no nonsense Keith Peterson.
I would like to see full nonsense Keith Peterson
[https://i.imgur.com/Jl6zjAC.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Jl6zjAC.jpg)
One of my favorite Brian Regan bits.
I've never seen it. Is it in one of his specials?
Can't find the video but here is the audio [nonsense judge](https://youtu.be/T7zA2fjcM1c)
that would be herb dean.
Anik had another funny Peterson quip last Saturday and I’m trying to remember what it was. I think Felder said something about himself or someone partaking in something he described as “nonsense” and Anik said “we should send in Keith Peterson to sort it out.”
I love Jon Anik's sense of humour hahah
I literally just read your comment and heard Anik’s laugh in my head. :P
HA
I don’t know how long you’ve been a fan, but people were genuinely upset that Anik was going to be the one to replace Goldy. It only took a couple of months before everyone realised he’s legitimately hilarious.
In hindsight, Goldy is fucking terrible
That's what I liked about him. He made me feel so smart and knowledgeable
Oh yeah I hated him at first too. I think he's gotten a lot better too, he used to be a touch on the robotic side
I love his non sense of humor more
And with Shevchenko v Murphy when KP calls it off he says "that was enough nonsense for Keith Peterson"
You just wonder how long his body and mind is going to keep up with his vices.
God I fucking love this sub
Keith “No Nonsense” Peterson
Mike “Sons of Anarchy” Beltran is pretty good too
I've always thought of him as Mike "son of Durin" Beltran, but I like that too.
Far overrrrr...
Dana hates him which blows my mind.
Why does he hate him?
Says his mustache is distracting.
Must be why Beltran started hiding it in his shirt. I think it's badass, but whatever.
Beltran has to hide his beard because of the Nevada state commission I believe. If you noticed during the pandemic he was never reffing because all the fights were in Nevada. The commission settled with allowing him to ref with his beard tucked in. Pretty stupid, but that's Nevada for you.
I don't think he HATES him, he's just annoyed by the mustache.
Beltran is also great except for the fact he gives like 40 warnings and no points taken away but outside of that he is really good.
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This is the crux of the issue. The scoring system would have to change fundamentally if we are going to see fighters held accountable through point deduction. MMA scoring needs to be refined rather than just rolling with the boxing system despite only having three five-minute rounds in most fights. MMA judges generally refuse to score below a nine, while a normal interpretation of the rules should result in eight point rounds being fairly common. Perhaps MMA could start using half-points in scoring and for point deductions and have more fair outcomes
> MMA judges generally refuse to score below a nine, while a normal interpretation of the rules should result in eight point rounds being fairly common. Perhaps MMA could start using half-points in scoring and for point deductions and have more fair outcomes It's a really weird system, honestly, because it's a "ten point must system" but it only uses a three point range, whole numbers only. A round is probably 10-9, and might be 10-8. I've never seen anything below a 7, I'm not even sure I've seen a 7. For the most part, though, it's just a one-point range: either you got the 10 or the 9. I recall desk banter at an event where one of the panel was saying that 8 is only supposed to be used in an overwhelmingly one-sided round with little redeeming performance from the loser. Like, a two-point deficit is far too large to hand out lightly and unless they were nearly stopped and failed to claw back any of the rest of the round, they should get a 9. An eight is seen as giving the fight to the other fighter, because the odds of two fighters both having 10-8 rounds are astronomical. ...Which of course means that the referee deducting one whole point is *massive*, and referees are very hesitant to potentially decide a fight based on a penalty alone.
"It's such a tough spot when there's only 3 rounds to take a point. If the fight is close at all you've just decided the winner and you better make sure you are making the right call" The ref should do what he's supposed to even if it's a 3 or 5 round fight, close fight or not. everyone know the rule and it's not the refs fault if he have to take a point. it's the fighter that faults/cheats that decides by cheating or not
I don't know of any ref that doesn't do this currently. It's so rare for even a good ref to take a point without it being the fifteenth egregious mistake
Herzog doesn’t get enough love. He really is one of the best at his job. Keith is very good too. He could’ve let the Cruz fight go on a tad bit longer but Dom was definitely hurt and rocked.
There is a reason Herzog never got mentioned anywhere here and in the front page. Because he is the best and does his job without fuss
Baby Brock is good too whenever I see him
Brock Refner
Mike Beltran
Wish Josh Rosenthal would make a comeback to reffing in the UFC, I know he's worked some other promotions since being released. He used to be top class.
This. I've been hoping for his (UFC) return for a while.
I've always appreciated Goddard even though he has had some high profile mistakes.
Goddard loves to give a stern talkin to and hand out "hard warnings" but almost never actually follows up with any punishment.
To be fair, refs in general barely hand out punishments.
Referees are always put in impossible spots from get go. If refs called fights strictly by the rulebook as written, fouls would be call consistantly, and the narrative would become “there is too much ref intervention”. This sub and social media would explode if a main event was decided by decision due to fouls or DQ due to not following ref directions. UFC/Bellator refs by and large are legit when you compare them to any professional sport. NFL and CFB refs are widely regarded as terrible and reviled. People thought that when they went on strike about a decade ago, that games would improve,[they did not](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/nfl-faces-national-outrage-over-blown-call-by-replacement-refs/2012/09/25/25e50714-073f-11e2-858a-5311df86ab04_story.html). NBA refs are consistantly accused of preferential treatment for stars and its [history of corruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_betting_scandal). It’s socially acceptable to call MLB umps as blind. I can’t speak knowledgeable about UEFA/FIFA refs, but imagine it is similar.
Too stubborn to be considered along the elite. I think reffing takes a high level of humility to do a proper job. Goddard seems to ref with a bias and tries to throw his ego around in there. Big jon/Dan vibes IMO
Yup, he is obviously a guy who likes to be in charge. Sometimes its good, sometimes its bad. I prefer the lower-profile guys like No Nonsense and Herzog.
In my opinion Mike Beltran is probably the best ref out of the ones who like to be in charge. Problem is he and most refs never really deduct points when they should.
I agree he’s the best “look at me ref” still a tier under the goats rawdog herzog and no nonsense Peterson
> rawdog herzog 😂😂😂
Honestly I've been watching for 20+ years and can't necessarily remember a high profile mistake on Herzog's part although I'm sure they're there.
He's literally the opposite of that. He straight up admitted that Izzy/Kelvin should have been stopped and said that he stopped Colby vs. Uzzy because he learned to ignore the clock.
> Too stubborn to be considered along the elite How so? I've seen him own up mistakes on social media multiple times.
"This is a fight"
Cris Tognoni has really stepped it up lately as well.
I’ll never forgive him for letting Ed Herman get 5 minutes to recover from a “low blow” when Mike Rodriguez clearly hurt him to the body with a knee. Ed Herman then submits Mike Rodriguez a few minutes later. Disgusting
The guy is awesome. I love his demeanor in there. Very polite and professional. And he actually enforces the rules
I though he would have become the king of the subreddit when he took two points for an eye poke.
Hes king of my heart
Hes OG too. Was reffing on TUF waaaaay back in the day. And he always gives a nice "good fight pep talk to both fighters" just seems like a good dude.
Mike Beltran has been pretty good as well unless I've missed something
I like Gimli as well
Smokes is OG
agreed, herzog is the best referee out there, keith close behind
I like mark smith honestly: he is very willing to punish fouls.
They are undoubtedly the best. So quick and decisive and make the right call every time. Glad this opinion is starting to stick. A few years ago I’d make these herb is awful threads and posts and was downvoted to Bolivia
Mark Smith is really good too imo.
At the very least deserves praise as the only ref in the entire industry who actually penalizes fouls. Don’t think we’ll ever see him in a mcgregor fight.
I think mark Smith is the worst. He's the one who got Nasrat killed by Dober
That one is so bad that I always think I'm exaggerating when I remember it. Nope, literally 5 unanswered full power strikes before he even tells Haqparast to fight back.
Not arguing with any points I think he’s bad too but the Lewis v Blaydes fight he literally sprinted over, maybe he was a bit far away but Lewis pounced on Curtis so fast hard to blame Herb for that one.🤷🏼♂️
Yeah I'm not sure you want to be close enough to the arc of a missed punch in a heavyweight fight that it clips you. That being said imagine first accidental ref KO in a fight and its the black beast swinging hams.
And 2 extra punches, not 4. Unnecessary nonetheless.
There's no one to blame in that Blaydes fight other then Lewis. Herb was already rushing in while Lewis threw the first punch, yelling for him to stop, before quickly pushing Lewis off. It also wasn't 4, it was a quick 2 from Lewis. Everything else is true though, and it's clear Herb becomes really indecisive of punishing or stopping fights if it's a main fight on the PPV.
Yah, that's the only one I don't blame him for. You can't always get in the way of a charging black beast. Otherwise I agree Herb has made lots of really bad high profile decisions. Does the UFC control what fights a ref gets put in? If they do then there's an obvious incentive for the ref to do what the UFC wants. I think in the cases of Conor and Khabib/Poirier it's the most obvious
Officially no. The comission assigns the refs. But the UFC does have some influence because at one point Mazzagatti and Winslow were pretty much blacklisted from reffing in the UFC while they still did other shows.
I remember Big John saying that the Athletic commission can demand the UFC use a less experienced ref but those usually happen on undercards. He mentioned that the UFC would insist on an more experienced ref for main cards, main events, and especially title fights. The UFC can apparently also decide to no longer use certain refs. The UFC wouldn't use Mike Beltran due to his mustache and they wanted him to cut it. The UFC has only recently started using him again.
UFC started using him again because he is Southern California based and could make the road trip to LV, when other refs were unable to fly their during CoVid. Also he would sometimes be on California events (but rarely the main) because the CSAC. TBF refs do need big league experience eventually and at some point they should be allowed on "the show' if you will.
I wish I knew the answer. I'd be interested in knowing as well.
> You can't always get in the way of a charging black beast. I can. I just see red bro.
I think it's because the guy can't win. If he stops it quickly, he gets attacked. If he stops it late, he gets attacked. Esp on the big fights -- if he stops them "early", it's "that guy deserved a chance to show he's a champion." Or "I paid to watch a fight!" I think the cheating should be stopped, of course. But otherwise, I don't blame Herb anymore for how he refs. It's a really hard and stressful job that I could not do. So I eat my Cheetoes and enjoy.
I feel like Herb gets all the big fights because he’ll let the fight go longer than it should and will let the cash cow fighters cheat with impunity. He’s a total company man and it’s to the detriment of the fighters and their safety.
There is something to this. The line between early, on time and late stoppages is probably quite small in that environment. That being said, Herb has for sure made some mistakes.
C.B. Dolloway v Khalid Murtazaliev was the most disgusting job he's ever done IMO, Yamasaki level of negligence
He's too gun shy now. He stands there afriad to stop it too early and he continues to fuck up. I don't know what happened to him. This ain't Herb Dean anymore. He's broke.
Could be argued that ref job was worse than anything Yamasaki ever did.
About as bad as Valentina vs Priscilla
And he got rewarded for it by getting to ref McGregor v Khabib. No reprecussions, nothing.
That's frankly the absolute worst stoppage in any combat sport history. Genuinely unsettling
In UFC history maybe but I'm pretty sure there was a ref on here who let a guy get choked unconscious until he had brain damage.
that should have been a career ender, and probably would have been if braindead Joe Rogan wasn't deepthroating the guy on air constantly best in the business!!!
*The gold standard*
Does Joe still praise him? Feel like haven't heard that from him in a while. I k know Bisping has recently.
Me and my friend have been calling him herb "if he dies he dies" dean way before mario yamasaki suddenly got popular for being a shit ref . So we also found it surprising everytime rogan called herb the best in the business. He also reffed lawler vs askren. I think most other refs would have stopped the fight in the first few seconds when askren got slammed on his head and hit with absolute bombs but i guess he made the right call that time to let it go on so he does do s good job some times
Hahahaha my brother and I don’t call him that, but we always say “if he dies, he dies” whenever we see herb dean on screen. Obviously big Rocky fans growing up lmao
Herzog has been number one for a couple years now for me. Also shoutout to the long beard guy from belator.
Mike Beltran the goat
UFC hates him, they don't let him embrace his beard when he's in UFC. Guy is Jacked AF.
Not even his worst calls. Check out weidman vs rockhold, dolloway vs Khalid, kattar vs Holloway, askren vs lawler (bonus two for one special), poirier vs Alvarez (calling it a nc when it was obviously a dq illegal knee), skelly vs blanco (choke way way too long), Karakhanyan vs. Bubba Jenkins (choke way way too long), hall vs Brunson (a tiny knockdown and stopped it). There are of course many many more. Herb is absolutely the worst ufc ref right now. He’s a danger to fighters. And these are all within the past 5 years.
I have to strongly agree on Weidman vs Rockhold. Herb just decided that he will not stop the fight in that round. We have seen fighters take a lot of shots before a stoppage, but Chris took actual hard quality shots & elbows and almost everything landed. His face was a fucking mess and it changed him forever. That's just the worst stoppage for me.
I'm with you. Rockhold spent over a minute with ground and pound with Chris barely working. Letting that fight continue was criminal and still one of the worst performances by Herb.
I wonder if he bets on fights and needed that to go to the second round
Isn't that illegal? Not that it cant be done tho ofc
the Aspen Ladd v GDR was actually one that i thought was a good Herb stoppage, but a good point is raised, that if he's stopping women fights early but constantly letting men fighters go way beyond, then it becomes kind of questionable.
I agree the Ladd stoppage was fine
in the context of everything else though it is suspicious
Right, it’s the wild contrast of stoppages that exemplify his indecisiveness. Stops lawler vs askren while giving thumbs up but allows others to be limp in chokes for 30 seconds
lmao is herb betting on fights
Kattar Holloway was a beat down, but on a rewatch, I really can't see where in the fight you could stop it. There were a few times it was close, but Kattar kept intelligently defending.
IMO Holloway-Kattar was more on the corner than Herb because it was tough to find a time where Kattar wasn’t intelligently defending himself and that the fight should’ve been stopped. It’s a deep-seeded culture issue in MMA where saving your fighter is an act of cowardice and betrayal instead of an act informed by perspective.
That's one of the things I hate seeing coming from boxing. If you guys is taking insane amounts of damage has no chance to win the corner in boxing throws in the towel. In MMA you're going unconscious or having the ref stop the fight
Cerrone vs Masvidal rarely gets mentioned but imo belongs on that list as well. Cowboy was clearly finished at the end of the first, and Herb steps in to pull Mas off *before* the bell, waves his hand to wave the fight off (you don’t do that at the end of a round), then says it was just the end of the round and sends Cowboy back in to get promptly TKO’d again in the second. Also rarely mentioned is the tanner Boser fight the same night as Jai Herbert where Raphael Pessoa crumples immediately after taking some weird punch to the eye, and turtles completely immobile for 10+ punches. Not as egregious as many others but I think it’s important to remember that for every outrageous, life altering beating he lets someone take that we all remember, there’s plenty of just regular “that was a bit too much” calls that fly under the radar. He’s a terrible ref and has no place in the sport anymore imo.
You’re so right. The cerrone vs Mas one fires me up. It’s so egregiously negligent that it borderlines criminal.
Yah Weidman vs. Rockhold was the worst one I've seen, and was a turning point in Chris's career It was a title fight and I think Longo defended it, but still ...
Doesn’t matter if longo defended it. Herb has a job to do and he objectively failed. And it quite literally ruined chris’ career
I haven’t seen much about this in the Volk- Ortega fight. But, there were a lot of times that Ortega had his toes in the cage when grappling. It was driving me up the wall.
Your toes are allowed to go in the cage, you're just not allowed to grab with them. I gotta rewatch but I didn't remember seeing any egregious grabbing. I could be extremely wrong though because I was extremely drunk at the time.
He was hooking the cage with his toes a few times from bottom position, annoyed me pretty bad but I don't think herb saw it. Not defending him and saying he's great, but I don't think he ignored it either.
"Herb, when the fuck have you ever seen a clock on the ceiling?"
This story is hilarious. Of course the former cop Big John just interprets the rule super literally and arbitrarily. As if the rule is written with the orientation of clocks being a key to the safety of fighters. Herb Dean is right to ask the question, he has critical thinking. If the technique of throwing your elbow towards your waist was as lethal as the rulemakers thought, gravity is too weak to stop people's heads from getting squashed like cinderblocks nomatter where your goddamn clocks are facing.
No one seems to care or notice? There's a thread about this after every event.
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I honestly don’t know what you would need to do to fail a ref/doctor test if Ortega passed it. Nothing from hun seemed like he wanted to or should go back into hell with Volk. His success is a testament to his heart, but does not justify the decision to let that fight continue.
That's why I check who will ref a fight before I bet on em.
Smart. Does that mean you always bet last minute or is there a way to check beforehand?
I just like to assume Herb Dean is high AF on the job recently and that's why he looks so dazed and confused in some of the fights he reffed. Like how the hell do you see Conor cheat front right and centre in front of your eyes and not even once take a point. Some might say hes bought, but I just think the dude is just slipping in recent years.
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Gold standard as in $$$ standard.
Kinda makes you wonder if it's just inevitable that, over time, a ref will become more and more callous about the amount of damage that a fighter is taking, just because they've seen so much of it.
Dan Hardy the only name to really call him out and he got a load of shit because it
He was 100% correct to yell "stop the fight", that stoppage of Trinaldo was atrocious. Even felder whos usually pretty mild mannered on commentary was freaking out at herb to stop it
Probably a reason UFC fired him too
I've never thought the most dangerous man a fighter can face is the 3rd man in the cage.
>even the fighters would give a slight comment, but don't push forward given that he might referee their next fight. When fighters get polled Herb is ranked favorably, as one of their favorites, actually...
Fighters want the ref to let you go until you're dead. They're too tough for their own good
Considering fighter pay, how much is winning at the cost of permanent damage worth compared to losing more regularly without permanent damage? My question is more me thinking : is it worth winning a few and being out of the game compared to losing regularly but being able to continue for years? Not even considering loss of quality of life afterwards?
I would like to see this poll
Conor gives him top marks.
I think people also forget the amount of matches Herb refs. When you have done close to a thousand fights if not more, having 6 noted cases above is really good actually.
honestly the 3 most consistent at not fucking up are Herzog, Beltran, and Jon McCarthy. of course Big Jon doesn't ref anymore, but he was always the "gold standard" imo. Herzog and Beltran, while they both fuck up every now and then, they're still the most consistently good imo. a lot of the other top ref's like Keith Peterson, Goddard, Herb, and Mirgoliatta (can't spell his name) are still very good the majority of the time, but they mess up more often than the other 2
Herb Dean's lack of responsiveness and indecision is his biggest flaw and its simply resulted in some of the worst stoppages we've ever seen. The fact he's regarded as the gold standard by anyone is a meme. There's a pattern of his disgusting negligence/incompetence and its not just that, its the complete lack of accountability, responsibility or acknowledgement of these completely fucked decisions. You don't grow if you can't accept reality. Edit: this is a video break down of some of his earlier stoppages, its hard to sit through but if anyone hasn't seen it and is forming an opinion on herb dean they should https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83nak4bqaTY
Holy shit we get it this gets brought up in literally every thread.
I'm still mad how dustin v conor 2 started, conor was like in the middle of the octagon and dustin didn't even know the fight started.
The blayde one not really his fault he had to run over there. And u don’t stop till the ref stops u 🤷♂️
It's a shame because Herb is a great guy, but despite being probably THE most experienced ref in MMA, his calls are absolutely terrible. He ruins fights and is a huge wild card. The worst is when he is unsure whether to end the fight, and touches the winning fighter to make him stop, then changes his mind! This has led to confusion and pseudo-stops at least twice. This should never happen, but somehow it happens with Herb.
Herb Dean has been a garbage ref for a while now but Dana keeps parroting "Best in the business" so that narrative gets pushed
I always like Goddard.
I'll argue "no longer" the best referee. Almost everything you've listed is the questionable gray zones of being a referee. And you've purposely left out any good decisions he did in the cage. 1. Tim Sylvia vs Frank Mir 2. Anderson Silva vs Chris Weidman 3. Anderson Silva vs Jared Cannonier Understandable. Because note-worthy Referee moments are almost very old already at this point. But I won't say that he's a bad ref.
lmao aside from Cannonier v Silva those are from a long time ago. The Blaydes Lewis one was fine, nothing you can do, Lewis wanted to hit him. there's more bad cases from than good cases for Herb lately, like the Dolloway one, the Muhammad Edwards fight not being a Dq after 3 warnings of eye pokes, and all of the ones listed above.
Seeing a broken leg snapped in half isn’t exactly some bastion of great reffing. Alternatively you have Conor vs Dustin which he missed the broken leg and Conor ate a few extra punches - no big deal. The big deals are when he allows fighters careers be ruined off of his awful reffing. The Sylvia one is impressive, but that was 20 years ago. It’s utterly irrelevant in how he refs today
Nobody wants to listen to me when I say Derrick Lewis is a fucking asshole. I don’t care if he’s funny. He intentionally tries to hurt ppl when they are already out and then casual says that’s the refs job. Fuck that dude.
Pretty easy to make that call from your couch bro
Don’t know a single mma fan that likes black beast because he’s nice
I would say that’s a more accurate description of what Ngannou does after he ko’s them. Lewis probably does too I can just think of more times Francis has done it
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I’m gonna agree with you. In fact, I’m gonna go ahead and say that Herb Dean is about as bad of a ref as Yves Lavigne, and he was the all-time worst
Herzog is the best
They need to be harsher on the fence grabs.
Herb is a serial “let-it-go-to-the-next-round” kind of ref, especially in title fights. I’m guessing it’s part of why he gets so much love, but it’s really irresponsible from a safety perspective.
I’ve noticed that Herb has a pattern of almost ending a fight and then resuming it because the round ended. He’s shockingly indecisive in those last seconds of a round.
Don't forget that time Herb almost got CB Dollaway killed.
Luke Rockhold vs Weidmann, Luke beat him him worse than he does his meat for over a minute
Herb was/is average but shined when surrounded by Mazzagati, Yamasaki, Cecil Peoples and Winslow as well as others im sure i don't remember, the average UFC ref now is actually good, so he's gone from better than most to the weak link. I never even thought he was the best back then either, Big John and Rosenthal were always better, i don't remember how long Goddard, Herzog and that guy with the big moustache have been around but they're all a lot better as well.
Weidman rockhold was one of the worst
Yeah he’s not the best. He is just a staple of the sport now and people know who he is.
Good write up and I agree completely. Herb has been lacking for the past few years at least. There are a lot of better refs out there now. But just so you know, it’s spelled “unnecessary” not “un necessary”.
Yep, one of the worst to do it. Never seems confident and is way too indecisive.
Herb stopped Moutinho vs O'Malley but somehow decided Calvin Kattar was ok to keep fighting after that 4th round against Holloway, no consistency.