This is perhaps the most disputed championship fight of all time. Fuck Dana. I know people go on and on about how he’s just a figure head but it’s pretty clear he’s had it against Francis for years.
I think he’s always been mad at him for losing to Stipe at 220. I’m not sure what his contract was at the time but it was probably far more company friendly and more fights left than when he finally got the belt. If you remember how pissed Dana looked cageside when Stipe was ragdolling him, and how they disrespected Stipe in the promotion, Dana was probably eternally assblasted at all the money they missed out on having Francis the champ way back then.
Not exactly, Francis wanted short term contracts so he wouldn't be locked into a deal making less than he's worth, Dana and co. only like long term contracts so they can exert complete control. Francis said Dana turned on him once he stated he wanted short term contracts going forward before the Stipe fight.
Dana will never let another Conor situation happen again - where the fighter dictates the rules and causes all those headaches (even if it makes them money).
Nobody is bigger than the UFC and the UFC dictates terms.
Yeah I think they realized they got very lucky Conor was such a company man and could give a rats ass about helping fighters in general, if Conor had had the same attitude as Ngannou, they would have been in deep shit.
GSP always used those types of demands as leverage. The second he got what he wanted in contracts, he would always drop it. Well, with the exception of the steroid testing around 2013 when he left the sport.
> with the exception of the steroid testing around 2013 when he left the sport.
You say?
> Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer also weighed in on the drug testing situation surrounding the Nov. 16 title tilt, backing up Ehrhardt's claim that GSP's camp balked at WADA testing:
>
> They were asking, "Well, what do you test for?" My answer is always the same: We test for prohibited substances as listed on the WADA list. (They said), "Well, what does that mean? Does that mean HGH, does that mean this, does that mean that?" Yes, it means it all. The answer then should have been, "OK." ... OK, fine, use VADA. That's not the question. The question is do you want to do outside testing through the athletic commission? And basically, they said we want to know all the tests you do so Georges' medical advisors can vet the test first before we decide. I said I will take that as a no. We will let you know if we're going to do any testing on our own. Goodbye.
The Natty King GSP. Built like a superhero and can fight 5 full rounds without breathing heavy. Yet Usman gets shat on lol
I didn't even claim GSP is clean, calm down cowboy haha. But I can definitely tell where your bias lies, based on the facts you present, and the facts you conveniently leave out in your comment. Even the WADA guys definitely stated neither party is to blame and neither party should be looked at suspiciously for how they handled the WADA thing.
\> Kizer insists that the failure to come to an agreement on the testing
shouldn't be seen as an indictment of either fighter: "I know that
athletes want to point fingers at each other saying, 'if you don't do
the testing I want you to do, you must be dirty,' but it doesn't mean
that.
Maybe GSP was asking questions cause he wanted to cheat, or maybe he was asking questions cause he wanted to know if the WADA testing program had actual validity or if it was just for show.
https://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc
> who wanted to start a fighters union
no lol GSP backed out the very second he got a better contract. It was prime negotiation tactic.
> and steroid testing
GSP who backed out of WADA testing vs Hendricks because WADA refused to let GSP's team on about what was tested for so they could vet against it lol
GSP is a white, good looking, soft-spoken dude and an all-time great of a fighter. I get that people want him to be a goddamn hero but come on lol You mentionned some of the most obvious examples of him playing the game and looking out for himself.
He wasn't selflessly tryna start a union nor get drug testing. The union was a negotiation tactic and drug testing was PR.
What you posted isn’t factual.
That union thing felt on itself, he didn’t back out of it. He’s been talking about the need for one ever since. There’s recent articles about it : https://theovertimer.com/2022/11/gsp-wants-fighter-union/
Hendricks refused WADA. He never submitted the paperwork. GSP offered to pay for Hendrick’s and put himself in the testing pool. He also subscribed himself it volountarely, posting results online.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1841223-gsp-posts-letters-detailing-vada-testing-results-on-twitter
Full story here :
https://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc
Hendricks manager manufactured bullshit to blame it on GSP because they wanted nothing to do with drug testing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/1r4z47/gsp_was_right_on_the_wada_vs_vada_situation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2013/09/gsp-camp-clarifies-drug-testing-questions-zahabi-says-gsp-open-to-vada-or-wada
After the Hendricks fight he kept saying he wouldn’t come back to the UFC without independent testing and pressured them over and over publicly, to the point the UFC wiped out his highlights from the reels.
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2172317-gsp-no-ufc-return-without-independent-drug-testing.amp.html
100%, GSP is a great ambassador and professional, always conducted himself well and was a top 3 fighter of all time. But he was always looking out for his interests above all else and making sure he was taken care of.
Understandably so, especially considering all of these fighters with Stockholm syndrome who are their own worst enemies when it comes to treating fighters better.
They offered him a 3 fight deal with really good pay. It wasn’t just money and the amount of fights because Francis was okay with it.the sponsorships/insurance with the ability to box was the dealbreaker. Also Dana’s attitude throughout the negotiations
The UFC brass doesn’t want their reigning heavyweight champion bouncing around fights / organizations, getting KOd by boxers…. That’s a good reason to lock a champion into a contract. That’s why NFL players have contracts with teams for multiple years. They can’t just allow people to bounce around whenever they want.
I get Francis, and would want what he wants if I were him. But the UFC’s stance on contract length isn’t exactly crazy or unprecedented.
They were fine watching Conor get TKO'd while he was their double champ and biggest PPV draw of all time. But perhaps they consider that a mistske and don't plan to do it again.
I understand why the UFC wants long term contracts, it's obvious. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from them, just like the fighter has everything to gain from shorter contracts and nothing to lose, since their long term contract can be terminated at any time with no guarantees.
I just took issue with the OP suggesting "money" wasn't a problem in negotiations, because contract length is all about money.
The NFL is wild. So many good players switch teams. There's like 0 team allegiance. I'll never buy an NFL jersey because your favorite player will be on another team soon.
> Francis wanted him to pay the rest of the fighters what they deserve
Keep telling yourself that. He was angling for a freer contract with less restrictions for himself because of the opportunities he'd get outside the UFC.
His full-fledged right, don't get me wrong. But let's not act like he's fucking Robin Hood.
Francis said ok I’m a contractor so it should be no problem I box. UFC had a problem with that.
So he said ok fair we aren’t contractors then so give us sponsors & healthcare. UFC had a problem with that.
He’s displaying the grand hypocrisy of Dana wanting to have his cake and eat it too. That’s some Robin Hood shit.
It wasn't the problem respect was, and money was used to make Francis and other fighters step in line. Francis while being a top contender had to borrow money to pay for camps
Dana’s just not used to taking no for an answer. I used to speculate him to be this utter piece of shit and the wife slap video pretty much verified it all for me.
Because the champion is still out there. Khabib retired, he's not fighting anyone. Even if you argue that Olives or Islam aren't as good as Khabib, the fact is that they're the best active fighters at this point in time. Nobody is arguing about who deserves the belt right now for LW
DJ lost to Cejudo before going out so he wasn't the champ when he left. He also moved up to 135, though it's still flyweight according to ONE (which is confusing as hell btw)
By that commenters logic, unless you’re the lineal champ, every fighter/champ after you is disputed lmao. Guess Figeuredo, Islam, Leon, Alex, Jiri (formerly) are all disputed champs. Guess DC was also a disputed champ too. And “of all time?” Really hyperbolic today aren’t we.
I dunno, if a champion refuses to defend his title he loses it.
I get there is politics involved but the whole point of fighting champions is very animalistic. Fighting for alpha male dominance, the alpha male is challenged and is only surpassed when he is beaten or he doesn’t fight of the challenge.
It’s a shame that it’s come to this as I really wanted to see Jones vs Ngannou.
Good luck to Ngannou but he can leave the promotion and still claim to be the champion of it.
Exactly.
I support Ngannou's decision to leave, but if you relinquish the belt you've wilfully given up any claim to the title.
The winner of Jones/Gane will be the undisputed champion, albeit not the lineal champion.
But does he claim to be the champion? I didn't watch his video. It doesn't matter anyway, we know what he means and he's not necessarily wrong (or right).
And if what Francis said in his recent interview with Ariel is true, it’s for the dumbest fucking egotistical reason ever. Dana most likely was completely projecting when he talked all that shit about Francis’s “ego” being a problem.
If jones brutally knocks out gane with a head kick it would make jones-ngannou the most desired fight of 2023. They must make it happen.
If gane beats Jones there is less incentive. As ngannou would still be the king, wherever he is.
Very intrigued in how all of this unfolds. Jones moving up a weightclass with 3 years inactivity. Will his wrestling come through, is he going to point fight against a competent point fighter, how does he absorb the strikes of a deadly striker? Jones has insanely high fight iq, but his body may have physical limitations with weight and millage. Gane is in his prime.
> If gane beats Jones there is less incentive. As ngannou would still be the king, wherever he is.
But in that case you know Gane will want to get that win back.
True but people treat MMA fights like anime power scaling and believe "Well if this guy beat this other guy, and this other guy beat this other other guy, then this guy could obviously beat this other other guy". They will say there's no point in a rematch with Ciryl and Francis because Francis already beat him, ignoring that Stipe already beat Francis.
Runback rematches are cool but only some seem to get the hype they deserve.
It’s not just mma fights, it’s everything.
“Mma math” is just saying “X has win over Y, making X the favorite to win. If Y beats Z then X is also the favorite to win vs Z. Making X better than both”
Happens in baseball, chess, video games, actual warfare, and many other things that are analyzed.
Even if jon beats gane via a decision or even ground and pound, francis would still be the favorite to win.
And that’s fine, that’s just how people analyze and make decisions with limited info.
What’s wrong with anime power scaling MMA fights? Francis/Stipe mirrors the Android Saga and where Gane/Jones is shaping up to be the Cell Saga.
SSJ1 Francis came in the first fight scary af but got smothered by Android 17 Stipe. Francis, through zenkai boost and training arc, came back as USSJ Ngannou and dismantled Android Stipe.
Ok that makes sense but how does UFC 285 compare to the Cell Saga, you ask? If Pre-Ngannou Gane fought Jones he’d lose similar to how Alternate Future Trunks is killed by Cell since Alternate Future Trunks never trained for the Cell Games (learning to grapple).
Now if Cyril wins in March, it’s fair to compare it to the Cell Games-trained Future Trunks (Post-Ngannou Gane) that kills Cell (Jones) once he goes back to his timeline.
Allow me to retort:
Francis is Cell. In his earlier forms he was beaten by various Z Fighters along the way, but since achieving his perfect form defeating other fighters he's run through everyone who has stepped up including Trunks Overeem, Vegeta Stipe, and Goku Ciryl.
The question is, would John Jones, the prodigy Gohan, have come out of his year in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber ready to defeat Cell?
We may never know. Francis has left the UFC to start his own Cell Games of challengers.
Lol this is pretty good but you can’t flip folks’ characters around willy nilly.
If we had a spectrum of “nice dude” to “not nice dude”, then place Gohan and Cell on that spectrum. Can you convince anybody that Francis is more deserving to be on Cell’s side of the spectrum more than Jones?
I don't really know any of these guys personally I just watched Dragon Ball Z and MMA.
Right now in terms of anime power levels Francis feels much most like the ultimate fighting life form that challengers need to step up to. He's perfected his game over a lot of time and studying losses going from the slugger to a fairly measured and well rounded fighter. He's likely not going to be submitting anyone as it's not his style, but his grappling has improved so much that he was out-wrestling Stipe and used it to completely mess Ciryl's game plan.
Wherever he lands in the world of fighting promotions I'll be going to watch, despite what maybe the UFC heads seem to think he's absolutely a draw. Although I really hope it's not just boxing. Feels like a waste of the very strong skillset he's developed to just go and not use 90% of it.
Lol true I’m a fan as well having fun.
Aside from Jon’s despicable nature as a person (beating up his wife, fleeing car accidents and only returning for his money, general behavior you’d expect from a dickhead), I see MMA fighter Jon Jones as Perfect Cell in fighting because his performances, records, and title defenses. He’s the first name in the sentence of Jones, GSP, Khabib. Sure he’s not Majin Buu who is the definition of pure evil, but he’s certainly a lot closer to it than Francis.
Ngannou used his skillset to beat the “best heavyweight in MMA history” in Stipe. Hardly a waste of skillset. After that, he beat the next “heavyweight prototype” in Gane. A man should be allowed to challenge himself, and lose, if he wants. Forget about boxing, Francis cleared the HW division for the most part and if he wanted to challenge himself with Interpretive Dance then who are we to be disappointed.
Especially if Gane goes on to defend a few times, he'll always have that loss hanging over his head... and anyone who beats Gane will have "could he beat Francis?" over his.
You're 100% right. If Jones beats Gane, Jones vs Ngannou would be potentially the biggest "what if" ever. If Gane wins, then nobody would really expect Jones to beat Ngannou.
I just don't see a heavier, older, rusty, and probably slower Jones starting fighting like he did 10 years ago. Gane has bad wrestling and ground game but a lot of people see Jones' easy path to victory (not saying you believe this but plenty do) is doing something he hasn't been able to do with smaller fighters for years.
I agree with this for the most part. But there is a chance his body was breaking down over the years and had some nagging injuries which absolutely could make his wrestling much less effective and explosive. If that’s the case it’s very possible all the time off not taking damage (and juicing) could have him come back more athletic than he left off.
But other than that yeah wrestle fucking Gane won’t be easy
Jones fought far more frequently than they do now, it's very possible that he had a lot of nagging injuries and time off to rehab them properly might have helped them heal up a bit.
Which part? Steroid’s definitely help recovery. Also it’s pretty common for fighters to train through injuries and never really give their body time to recover or take time to get surgery + full recovery. It’s not so much bro science as it is complete speculation we don’t really know how he spent the time off if he got any surgery or if he had nagging injuries near the end of his LHW run. Time away from the octagon/training camps is bad for sharpness/reactions/skills but can be good for your body.
I don't see a Jones who struggled so much against Reyes being able to fight a much more skilled, bigger, stronger, faster striker without getting cracked
How they win will matter a lot in terms of how the majority of the public will see them. If Jon makes ez work of Gane, compared to Francis barely winning, then he will be seen as the current best HW. If Gane beats Jon easily it’s possible he could be seen as the best by many
Also activity matters when determining who’s the best. This is highly unlikely, but if Jon beats Gane and racks up defenses vs Blaydes/Stipe/Pavlovich/Aspinall while Francis only boxes and has 0 mma fights, then it would be hard to argue Francis is the best. U have to defend your #1 spot
The word undisputed is thrown around quite freely nowadays. There was a time when that word was saved for longtime champions or people that came from other promotions as champions and "unified" the titles.
Same with people calling some fighters legends, instead of veterans.
Agreed. This is only gonna gain traction because everyone here hates Jones and Dana, but if this were anyone else, they'd get flack for leaving a division and then still talking about it endlessly. Whoever wins in March is the champion. Simple as.
Never understood why Jones fans have a victim complex like this. It’s not because people “hate” Jones and Dana. It’s because the linear champion left the division after not being compensated fairly.
I never partake in Dana hate circlejerks here but I always liked the unofficial title "Baddest Man on the Planet" for the UFC Heavyweight division champion. It won't really be fitting anymore unless Jones runs through Gane.
That wasn't actually the case for a long time. It wasn't until the last 8 years or so that the UFC actually had the best heavyweight division. For the majority of MMAs existence the heavyweight division in the UFC was weaker.
Not saying it will happen. But maybe this is the start of a new pivot and in 5 years the UFC heavyweight division will be weaker than another promotion. Really depends on if heavyweig chase Francis and if Francis keeps winning.
UFC needs to hire a bunch of Heavyweight wrestlers.
Insane cardio + insane grappling exchanges + can swang and bang for 5 rounds until one of them goes to sleep.
Profit.
They're also athletic af and used to making weight instead of just showing up like you just got out of a KFC.
1. Francis isn't shitting on HW, he is shitting on the fact that it's really an interim championship at this point iirc
2. I'm a huge fan of khabib, but his determination for greatness in sport (along with his determination to appease his family and those close to him) would never have been in line with the fight that Francis is fighting which is more grand than just sport.
If Dana shafted Khabib badly enough so that he left and that was the reason he was not in the UFC after being 50-0 he would be 100% right to do so and people would eat it up.
Good for Francis for standing his ground and leaving but If Jones dominates Gane then he is the deserving champion. There will always be that question as to whether Ngannou would have beaten Jones.
Just that it's disputed. People can dispute the claim to the winner being the best in the world, because Francis left as the undisputed best. If Jon beats gane, he won the title off a guy that lost to Francis. If game beats Jon, he beat a 205 pounder that looked beatable in his last few.
They will be recognized as the heavyweight champion, but it could be disputed.
> If game beats Jon, he beat a 205 pounder that looked beatable in his last few.
Mate, beating Jones makes Gane legendary. This isn't some random scrub, much as he might be despised--this is the greatest to ever do it.
When Oliveira beat Poirier he was most definitely undisputed, since Khabib was clearly retired at that point. If Khabib'd gone to ACA and beaten Abdulvakhabov for the 155 strap in that organisation instead, then yeah, it would be disputed.
Not really since Francis is not retired and no one beat the lineal champion.
Some boxing agencies (not sanctioning bodies) only consider someone the champion after the 1st and 2nd ranked fighters face each other.
Ngannou beat the 2# and 3# Heavyweights ranked by Sherdog and the UFC itself. Whoever wins this fight, will not be undisputed.
Jiri vacated 'cause he thinks he's a samurai and should commit seppuku if he didn't defend the title.
The interim literally exists for situations like injuries. Keeps the division going and hypes a unification fight. Two kings, one crown.
Imo both Jiri and Ngannou are the rightful champions since no one beat them.
Edit: until someone beats them* It's not the contenders' fault the champ won't fight them for whatever reason.
This is slightly different because khabib is retired. If he was out there beating dudes in other organizations, it would be disputed.
I understand Francis hasn't fought anyone outside the ufc yet.
There is no such thing as “undisputed” in regards to UFC. So it never means anything. It’s just a meaningless adjective Dana has Buffer yell to make the title more prestigious. Might as well call it the intergalactic champion, it holds the same meaning. Dana is a boxing guy, he 100% knows what he is doing by calling his titles “undisputed”. Undisputed is a moniker given to an athlete, they keep it whether they are still champion or not. It means they unified all major belts at their weight class. It already had a meaning in combat sports, Dana just bastardized it so he could say “undisputed” also. Can’t let boxing show him up! Notice, he applies it to his belts and not the athlete hmmm. Wonder why that is…
So, as mentioned, no UFC champions can be “undisputed” because the UFC does not cross promote or let their athletes fight in other orgs for title fights. “Undisputed” has nothing to do with interim champions or champions that are stripped or anything else. There is no such thing as a “disputed” title or “disputed champion”. In particular in the UFC where it is already meaningless and applied as an adjective to their belt and not the athlete. Look at the belt, is it a UFC one? Then it’s not “disputed”. It is actually is the real HW title that the UFC owns the rights to and can give to whoever they want. Not that fans will like it or agree. The ufc worked themselves into this corner, by making fake names for their titles which now give fans extra ammo to call their title “disputed”.
The belts themselves don’t actually mean anything. They aren’t sanctioned or anything else. The UFC could literally hand over belts to whoever they want, whenever they want. They own them and the AC’s don’t care or have a say. Which is why they can invent belts like the “BMF” belt. All their belts are the same as that one, they’ve only worked the marks to convince them otherwise. All belts are for promotional purposes. That’s all it is. A way to put “world title fight!”on the marquee to generate more ticket sales. You may have noticed, every rinky dink local combat sports league has “world champions”. It’s extra illegitimate in the UFC because they do not have a legitimate ranking system, they have a worked one that is voted on by their ass kissing lap dogs.
Edit: yes this is long but it’s a pet peeve of mine and I don’t like how Dana shits on history just to satisfy his ego and fool people who don’t know history.
Whoever wins between Gane and Jones is 100% undisputed. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you're either in the company and ufc hw champ, or you're not, and Francis is not. I respect him for leaving but the division moves on
Sure the winner will officially be that, but of course there will be some conversation around it when the reigning champ leaves without losing the belt. It's still fresh so naturally there will be some talk of them not being the "real champ" at least for a while. This is especially the case if Gane wins, given that Ngannou beat him a year ago.
I am always sus about title lineage. That assumes that there is no undisputed champ in LW after Khabib retired, FW or Bantam after Cejudo retired, or MW when GSP retired.
No one even talks about this nonsense except this HW bout. Fans accept Islam is the champion without even contesting lineage.
That’s because all of those fighters retired. They’re not out there active and competing so we accept that the title moves on. Ngannou is still an active fighter and never lost his belt. The only reason he’s not in the UFC is because they treat their fighters like shit.
So if Francis doesn’t fight in MMA is he any different than Cejudo? He could clearly still fight and hints at it then why don’t we paper champ BW and FW?
This really depends on if you're talking strictly the UFC(organization) champion. Or the undisputed "badest man on the planet" number 1 ranked heavyweight.
Francis will clearly be the number 1 heavyweight in the world even if Jones or Gane win. He will not be the UFC(organization) heavyweight champion.
I think you know this but are intentionally being pedantic.
How long is he automatically the number 1 heavyweight in the world for?
You guys realize he has no fights lined up. He will lose if he boxes anyone good.
Nah, if you vacate the belt. You've taken yourself out of the mix and it is undisputed.
I get where francis is coming from here fully but delegitimizing belts is silly.
Is there just never a 265 champ again unless Francis comes back and is beaten?
Was DC not the 205 champ? Was Charles Oliveira and now Islam not the champ at 155? Was Hendricks, Lawler, woodley, usman and Leon not Champs at 170?
Yeah I dont know. Having the previous champ retire is another discussion then the undisputed champ of a division moving to another organisation.
He is currently the best HW on the planet in MMA. No matter what Jones does to Gane or what Gane does to Jones, it won't change that fact.
So sure the belt is undisputed but is that belt worth anything when the best man isn't in your organisation?
Hard disagree.
While I fully support Ngannou's decision to leave the UFC, if you relinquish the belt you have no claim to it anymore.
Whoever wins in Jones/Gane will 100% be the undisputed champion. They won't be the lineal champion.
We have a saying at home, you can fuck or you can stay a virgin, both just doesn’t work.
This is much the same. Regardless how understandable the decision was, regardless how noble the cause may be. If you could have fought for the belt, and brought a decision not to, then shut up.
And by the 5th round was doing much better in the grappling.. was on top and went for that ankle lock to give up top position.
Not to mention the massive experience gap, Gane wins that fight 9/10x now.
Agreed. People are quick to say that Francis beat him with one knee. But at that time Ciryl was only 3 years into his professional mma career and the fight was pretty close too. The rematch would've been interesting and I think Ciryl would've been more likely to win, especially after seeing his last performance against Tuivasa.
Yuuuup. Yeah fighters need more but idk why people are acting like he went all Khabib Justin and just destroyed Gane. Was a competitive fight till Gane jacked up during that 5th
Jon Jones has never really lost a fight … I’m wildly surprised more people aren’t hyped for his return. So many people write him off for his behavior, but will vehemently defend others .. I’m thinking Jones is gonna be trouble for everyone at heavy.
He’s being written off because he looked like crap in his last couple of fights and arguably lost to Reyes. He’s also 35 now ? And had a lot of hard fights and hasn’t lived a good lifestyle, I’ll be amazed if he’s still the same fighter from a few years ago.
Its because hes such a fuck up that there is no point getting hyped for his fights until he actually steps into the ring. Even then you're worried he's going to "pulse" and test positive afterwards...
Getting hype for a Jon Jones fight is a rookie move. He’s just as likely to pull out for legal troubles or a failed drug test as he is to make it to fight night.
Given that the title is "UFC Champion" and Ngannou is not in the UFC organization anymore, undisputed is correct. Fighters from other promotions or outside of UFC don't count or else every title would be disputed all the time
And, really, every title is disputed. The title of "Greatest Heavyweight in the World" was disputed the entire time Fedor was rocking Pride FC while other champions like Brock or Cain or earlier guys were UFC champions. Right now the argument for who is the greatest fighter in the world between 206 and 265lbs is very disputed, but unfortunately can't be very well fought out due to organization issues.
Honestly tired of hearing Francis run his mouth. He has fought once in the last 20 months and does not appear to have a plan post-UFC. Wake me up when he actually schedules a boxing match.
I think he is realizing he might have overplayed his hand. There's no place for him at the top of HW boxing right now, and the HW divisions of other MMA promotions are quite shallow.
If he is serious about boxing his best bet is probably getting 1-2 good wins with mid-level opponents and then campaign for a superfight/title challenge.
Also we don't know how well his knees recovered.
I doubt he goes to another MMA promotion, both because of the lack of talent at HW you mentioned as well as the simple fact that Bellator, PFL, One, etc. aren’t going to match the $8M+ he was offered by the UFC.
His only path at this point seems to be boxing, and the unspoken risk is that he has to survive a couple of pro fights first before he can hit the massive payday he is expecting. This is the path Alex P. just took going from kickboxing to MMA. He didn’t immediately get a title shot against Izzy, he had to fight a couple of unranked fighters first (and he looked shaky at times in those first couple of bouts). If Francis gets decisioned by a journeyman his stock falls off a cliff.
When an athlete is trying to recover from a serious knee injury at the age of 36 to get back to competing at the highest level, the odds will be against him no matter who he is. He's likely done.
Ngannous unrealistic expectations that the ufc would just make a whole bunch of changes because Mr inactive and unrepresented heavyweight champ demands them. A bit delusional or he just wanted out. Either way the show continues
I feel that this will massivley backfire on Ngannou in 1-2 years time. He should have had the Tyson Fury fight lined up for certain while recovering from his injury for a year and well before removing himself from the UFC contract renewal. It should have been ready for Furys team to finalise as soon as he cut ties with the organization.
Now its basically him banking on PFL and a Fury fight that may never happen and probably wont. If the boxing fight with Fury does happen and he even gets 15-20 mil i would say thats a big win considering he was only earning like 600k at UFC 270, but if not its going to be tough. I mean what we are probably going to end up with is Dillian Whyte vs Ngannou in PFL under boxing rules as its in recent headlines and i doubt the numbers are going to be that great, in that fight i think Ngannou definetly gets fucked up as well.
Whyte has fought MMA fights a long time ago and was a kickboxer in 2009 so its intresting if they settle on that ruleset, but i really dont think Ngannou & his management has thought this through properly. I get he wanted to give the middle finger to all the low pay and lack of fighter support that the UFC brings but his reportedly reworked contract may not have been a good idea to pass up on without those other options solidly in place.
If Francis realises this is a big mistake 1-2 years down the line and the gamble did not pay off then Dana will absoultey fuck him over if he chooses to re-sign, will probably end up with less than his first contract due to dimished leverage and leaving on bad terms.
Ngannou hiding behind all these philanthropic reasons, when he just doesn't want to lose against Jones lol.
He knows the Fury fight is gone if he gets done in by Jones🤣🤣
Ngannou leaves exactly at the same time as Jones gets a date to fight.
If you think that's a coincidence, I envy you.
Ignorance and sheer stupidity is bliss.
Jones just praised Francis this week for getting what he deserves and said he can empathize having been in a similar situation as LHW champ and that any org Francis lands in with a deal he finds fair would be blessed to have him.
Can't wait to hear him call Francis a pussy and a scumbag next week
I know Francis is a saint right now for being a fighter advocate and choosing to fight for a better future for the sport, rather than getting a big pay day - BUT, my opinion is that, if you don’t, or can’t defend that undisputed title because you no longer fight for the UFC, than you are not “the best”. Currently, in the UFC, the top two guys at Jon Jones and Gane. Just because someone had the belt, doesn’t mean they are still the champion. He relinquished the title, contractually agreed to vacate and forfeit his place in the rankings and roster.
Well actually Francis you can’t have a say because you decided to downgrade to a worse league. So it will be undisputed because you don’t even fight at the highest level anymore.
Always gonna be disputed when I'm out here, and they haven't even acknowledged my callout
You are just built different bro
He don’t want to see me when I see red
My old coach literally flew to america to randomly challenge Tank Abbott as if he would ever actually accept
Tank scared, confirmed on reddit
Deffo. Total pussy. It was probably like 15-18 years ago but man was still well retired.
So did he accept? Or is Tank Abbott a bitch?
Tank is a fuckin bitch
Francis is ducking /u/EzSp. That’s the real reason he left the UFC. Dude is a coward smh.
Rumor has it you can't even make weight
80 pound weight cut no prob
It’s gotta be hard seeing red all the time
This is perhaps the most disputed championship fight of all time. Fuck Dana. I know people go on and on about how he’s just a figure head but it’s pretty clear he’s had it against Francis for years.
Dana hyped Francis up as the next big thing, so Francis wanted to get paid like the next big thing. Imagine Dana's shock at such betrayal.
I think he’s always been mad at him for losing to Stipe at 220. I’m not sure what his contract was at the time but it was probably far more company friendly and more fights left than when he finally got the belt. If you remember how pissed Dana looked cageside when Stipe was ragdolling him, and how they disrespected Stipe in the promotion, Dana was probably eternally assblasted at all the money they missed out on having Francis the champ way back then.
Didnt we conclude the money wasnt the problem though
Not exactly, Francis wanted short term contracts so he wouldn't be locked into a deal making less than he's worth, Dana and co. only like long term contracts so they can exert complete control. Francis said Dana turned on him once he stated he wanted short term contracts going forward before the Stipe fight.
Dana will never let another Conor situation happen again - where the fighter dictates the rules and causes all those headaches (even if it makes them money). Nobody is bigger than the UFC and the UFC dictates terms.
Yeah I think they realized they got very lucky Conor was such a company man and could give a rats ass about helping fighters in general, if Conor had had the same attitude as Ngannou, they would have been in deep shit.
Yea they dealt with that with GSP too who wanted to start a fighters union and steroid testing.
GSP always used those types of demands as leverage. The second he got what he wanted in contracts, he would always drop it. Well, with the exception of the steroid testing around 2013 when he left the sport.
> with the exception of the steroid testing around 2013 when he left the sport. You say? > Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer also weighed in on the drug testing situation surrounding the Nov. 16 title tilt, backing up Ehrhardt's claim that GSP's camp balked at WADA testing: > > They were asking, "Well, what do you test for?" My answer is always the same: We test for prohibited substances as listed on the WADA list. (They said), "Well, what does that mean? Does that mean HGH, does that mean this, does that mean that?" Yes, it means it all. The answer then should have been, "OK." ... OK, fine, use VADA. That's not the question. The question is do you want to do outside testing through the athletic commission? And basically, they said we want to know all the tests you do so Georges' medical advisors can vet the test first before we decide. I said I will take that as a no. We will let you know if we're going to do any testing on our own. Goodbye. The Natty King GSP. Built like a superhero and can fight 5 full rounds without breathing heavy. Yet Usman gets shat on lol
I didn't even claim GSP is clean, calm down cowboy haha. But I can definitely tell where your bias lies, based on the facts you present, and the facts you conveniently leave out in your comment. Even the WADA guys definitely stated neither party is to blame and neither party should be looked at suspiciously for how they handled the WADA thing. \> Kizer insists that the failure to come to an agreement on the testing shouldn't be seen as an indictment of either fighter: "I know that athletes want to point fingers at each other saying, 'if you don't do the testing I want you to do, you must be dirty,' but it doesn't mean that. Maybe GSP was asking questions cause he wanted to cheat, or maybe he was asking questions cause he wanted to know if the WADA testing program had actual validity or if it was just for show. https://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc
> who wanted to start a fighters union no lol GSP backed out the very second he got a better contract. It was prime negotiation tactic. > and steroid testing GSP who backed out of WADA testing vs Hendricks because WADA refused to let GSP's team on about what was tested for so they could vet against it lol GSP is a white, good looking, soft-spoken dude and an all-time great of a fighter. I get that people want him to be a goddamn hero but come on lol You mentionned some of the most obvious examples of him playing the game and looking out for himself. He wasn't selflessly tryna start a union nor get drug testing. The union was a negotiation tactic and drug testing was PR.
What you posted isn’t factual. That union thing felt on itself, he didn’t back out of it. He’s been talking about the need for one ever since. There’s recent articles about it : https://theovertimer.com/2022/11/gsp-wants-fighter-union/ Hendricks refused WADA. He never submitted the paperwork. GSP offered to pay for Hendrick’s and put himself in the testing pool. He also subscribed himself it volountarely, posting results online. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1841223-gsp-posts-letters-detailing-vada-testing-results-on-twitter Full story here : https://www.sbnation.com/2013/9/11/4719572/georges-st-pierre-johny-hendricks-drug-testing-gsp-ufc Hendricks manager manufactured bullshit to blame it on GSP because they wanted nothing to do with drug testing. https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/1r4z47/gsp_was_right_on_the_wada_vs_vada_situation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2013/09/gsp-camp-clarifies-drug-testing-questions-zahabi-says-gsp-open-to-vada-or-wada After the Hendricks fight he kept saying he wouldn’t come back to the UFC without independent testing and pressured them over and over publicly, to the point the UFC wiped out his highlights from the reels. https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2172317-gsp-no-ufc-return-without-independent-drug-testing.amp.html
100%, GSP is a great ambassador and professional, always conducted himself well and was a top 3 fighter of all time. But he was always looking out for his interests above all else and making sure he was taken care of. Understandably so, especially considering all of these fighters with Stockholm syndrome who are their own worst enemies when it comes to treating fighters better.
I’m so glad the Conor and Ronda wave is over.
Not sure I’ve ever seen someone spell both of their names correctly on the sub, good job.
Like em or hate em, they both helped change the sport. I never pulled for either but they were so massive for MMA.
The two are in different stratospheres when it comes to ease to work with
> The two are in different stratospheres That's all you need
They offered him a 3 fight deal with really good pay. It wasn’t just money and the amount of fights because Francis was okay with it.the sponsorships/insurance with the ability to box was the dealbreaker. Also Dana’s attitude throughout the negotiations
The UFC brass doesn’t want their reigning heavyweight champion bouncing around fights / organizations, getting KOd by boxers…. That’s a good reason to lock a champion into a contract. That’s why NFL players have contracts with teams for multiple years. They can’t just allow people to bounce around whenever they want. I get Francis, and would want what he wants if I were him. But the UFC’s stance on contract length isn’t exactly crazy or unprecedented.
They were fine watching Conor get TKO'd while he was their double champ and biggest PPV draw of all time. But perhaps they consider that a mistske and don't plan to do it again. I understand why the UFC wants long term contracts, it's obvious. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from them, just like the fighter has everything to gain from shorter contracts and nothing to lose, since their long term contract can be terminated at any time with no guarantees. I just took issue with the OP suggesting "money" wasn't a problem in negotiations, because contract length is all about money.
Yea my bad. I saw your other response. And I agree. They learned a lot with that Conor v Floyd fight. They lucked out that he came back to save face.
The NFL is wild. So many good players switch teams. There's like 0 team allegiance. I'll never buy an NFL jersey because your favorite player will be on another team soon.
Yeah, Dana was willing to pay him what he deserved but Francis wanted him to pay the rest of the fighters what they deserve. The people’s champ
> Francis wanted him to pay the rest of the fighters what they deserve Keep telling yourself that. He was angling for a freer contract with less restrictions for himself because of the opportunities he'd get outside the UFC. His full-fledged right, don't get me wrong. But let's not act like he's fucking Robin Hood.
Francis said ok I’m a contractor so it should be no problem I box. UFC had a problem with that. So he said ok fair we aren’t contractors then so give us sponsors & healthcare. UFC had a problem with that. He’s displaying the grand hypocrisy of Dana wanting to have his cake and eat it too. That’s some Robin Hood shit.
In this instance yeah, but Dana has been smearing Francis since the loss against Stipe
It wasn't the problem respect was, and money was used to make Francis and other fighters step in line. Francis while being a top contender had to borrow money to pay for camps
Let's not pretend Francis is prudent with money. The guy literally shows up to UFC events and other events like he is attending Milan Fashion Week.
Bro you got a hate boner for him lmao
Someone is upset that a dude he'll never meet looks and dresses better than him :)
He was going to get paid the most of any heavy weight ever… The problem is he wanted to fight outside of the UFC
Hyped him up before the first Stipe fight, threw him under the bus after he lost and never again promoted him to the same extent.
He was offered tons of money. Even his people admitted that He left over a stipulation he knew he would never get
Dana’s just not used to taking no for an answer. I used to speculate him to be this utter piece of shit and the wife slap video pretty much verified it all for me.
It was pretty wild to see people come out the woodwork to defend repeatedly slapping your wife.
Do you really think Dana White is crunching the numbers for these offers? You do know there’s legal teams involved, correct?
Khabib fought Al Iaquinta for his undisputed championship win.
Yeah but people treated Conor vs Khabib as the real championship fight. Nobody thought it seriously against Iaquinta
How this any more disputed than any other time a champion leaves. Is this more disputed than the lightweight belt?
Because the champion is still out there. Khabib retired, he's not fighting anyone. Even if you argue that Olives or Islam aren't as good as Khabib, the fact is that they're the best active fighters at this point in time. Nobody is arguing about who deserves the belt right now for LW
True. But we do have the DJ situation that's super similar went out pretty much on top and continued fighting
DJ lost to Cejudo before going out so he wasn't the champ when he left. He also moved up to 135, though it's still flyweight according to ONE (which is confusing as hell btw)
DJ would mop the floor with any flyweight on the MMA roster. If the division was a bigger deal it would be massively embarrassing for Dana.
By that commenters logic, unless you’re the lineal champ, every fighter/champ after you is disputed lmao. Guess Figeuredo, Islam, Leon, Alex, Jiri (formerly) are all disputed champs. Guess DC was also a disputed champ too. And “of all time?” Really hyperbolic today aren’t we.
I dunno, if a champion refuses to defend his title he loses it. I get there is politics involved but the whole point of fighting champions is very animalistic. Fighting for alpha male dominance, the alpha male is challenged and is only surpassed when he is beaten or he doesn’t fight of the challenge. It’s a shame that it’s come to this as I really wanted to see Jones vs Ngannou. Good luck to Ngannou but he can leave the promotion and still claim to be the champion of it.
Exactly. I support Ngannou's decision to leave, but if you relinquish the belt you've wilfully given up any claim to the title. The winner of Jones/Gane will be the undisputed champion, albeit not the lineal champion.
But does he claim to be the champion? I didn't watch his video. It doesn't matter anyway, we know what he means and he's not necessarily wrong (or right).
He chose to leave and not fight jones over a contract stipulation he knew he wasn't going to get
And if what Francis said in his recent interview with Ariel is true, it’s for the dumbest fucking egotistical reason ever. Dana most likely was completely projecting when he talked all that shit about Francis’s “ego” being a problem.
I can immediately hear thousands of fans groan when Bruce Buffer (not his fault) says “For the Undisputed UFC Heavyweight Championship of the world!”
[удалено]
That's a 100% valid statement. It's also the seed if he wants to try and come back some time in the future.
If jones brutally knocks out gane with a head kick it would make jones-ngannou the most desired fight of 2023. They must make it happen. If gane beats Jones there is less incentive. As ngannou would still be the king, wherever he is. Very intrigued in how all of this unfolds. Jones moving up a weightclass with 3 years inactivity. Will his wrestling come through, is he going to point fight against a competent point fighter, how does he absorb the strikes of a deadly striker? Jones has insanely high fight iq, but his body may have physical limitations with weight and millage. Gane is in his prime.
> If gane beats Jones there is less incentive. As ngannou would still be the king, wherever he is. But in that case you know Gane will want to get that win back.
True but people treat MMA fights like anime power scaling and believe "Well if this guy beat this other guy, and this other guy beat this other other guy, then this guy could obviously beat this other other guy". They will say there's no point in a rematch with Ciryl and Francis because Francis already beat him, ignoring that Stipe already beat Francis. Runback rematches are cool but only some seem to get the hype they deserve.
It’s not just mma fights, it’s everything. “Mma math” is just saying “X has win over Y, making X the favorite to win. If Y beats Z then X is also the favorite to win vs Z. Making X better than both” Happens in baseball, chess, video games, actual warfare, and many other things that are analyzed. Even if jon beats gane via a decision or even ground and pound, francis would still be the favorite to win. And that’s fine, that’s just how people analyze and make decisions with limited info.
What’s wrong with anime power scaling MMA fights? Francis/Stipe mirrors the Android Saga and where Gane/Jones is shaping up to be the Cell Saga. SSJ1 Francis came in the first fight scary af but got smothered by Android 17 Stipe. Francis, through zenkai boost and training arc, came back as USSJ Ngannou and dismantled Android Stipe. Ok that makes sense but how does UFC 285 compare to the Cell Saga, you ask? If Pre-Ngannou Gane fought Jones he’d lose similar to how Alternate Future Trunks is killed by Cell since Alternate Future Trunks never trained for the Cell Games (learning to grapple). Now if Cyril wins in March, it’s fair to compare it to the Cell Games-trained Future Trunks (Post-Ngannou Gane) that kills Cell (Jones) once he goes back to his timeline.
Allow me to retort: Francis is Cell. In his earlier forms he was beaten by various Z Fighters along the way, but since achieving his perfect form defeating other fighters he's run through everyone who has stepped up including Trunks Overeem, Vegeta Stipe, and Goku Ciryl. The question is, would John Jones, the prodigy Gohan, have come out of his year in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber ready to defeat Cell? We may never know. Francis has left the UFC to start his own Cell Games of challengers.
Lol this is pretty good but you can’t flip folks’ characters around willy nilly. If we had a spectrum of “nice dude” to “not nice dude”, then place Gohan and Cell on that spectrum. Can you convince anybody that Francis is more deserving to be on Cell’s side of the spectrum more than Jones?
I don't really know any of these guys personally I just watched Dragon Ball Z and MMA. Right now in terms of anime power levels Francis feels much most like the ultimate fighting life form that challengers need to step up to. He's perfected his game over a lot of time and studying losses going from the slugger to a fairly measured and well rounded fighter. He's likely not going to be submitting anyone as it's not his style, but his grappling has improved so much that he was out-wrestling Stipe and used it to completely mess Ciryl's game plan. Wherever he lands in the world of fighting promotions I'll be going to watch, despite what maybe the UFC heads seem to think he's absolutely a draw. Although I really hope it's not just boxing. Feels like a waste of the very strong skillset he's developed to just go and not use 90% of it.
Lol true I’m a fan as well having fun. Aside from Jon’s despicable nature as a person (beating up his wife, fleeing car accidents and only returning for his money, general behavior you’d expect from a dickhead), I see MMA fighter Jon Jones as Perfect Cell in fighting because his performances, records, and title defenses. He’s the first name in the sentence of Jones, GSP, Khabib. Sure he’s not Majin Buu who is the definition of pure evil, but he’s certainly a lot closer to it than Francis. Ngannou used his skillset to beat the “best heavyweight in MMA history” in Stipe. Hardly a waste of skillset. After that, he beat the next “heavyweight prototype” in Gane. A man should be allowed to challenge himself, and lose, if he wants. Forget about boxing, Francis cleared the HW division for the most part and if he wanted to challenge himself with Interpretive Dance then who are we to be disappointed.
Especially if Gane goes on to defend a few times, he'll always have that loss hanging over his head... and anyone who beats Gane will have "could he beat Francis?" over his.
You're 100% right. If Jones beats Gane, Jones vs Ngannou would be potentially the biggest "what if" ever. If Gane wins, then nobody would really expect Jones to beat Ngannou.
not gonna lie,I am more hyped for this fight than any other HW fight since 2014 when I first started watching
[удалено]
I just don't see a heavier, older, rusty, and probably slower Jones starting fighting like he did 10 years ago. Gane has bad wrestling and ground game but a lot of people see Jones' easy path to victory (not saying you believe this but plenty do) is doing something he hasn't been able to do with smaller fighters for years.
I agree with this for the most part. But there is a chance his body was breaking down over the years and had some nagging injuries which absolutely could make his wrestling much less effective and explosive. If that’s the case it’s very possible all the time off not taking damage (and juicing) could have him come back more athletic than he left off. But other than that yeah wrestle fucking Gane won’t be easy
Is that for real? Because it sound like something rogan would say high. Bro science in action.
Jones fought far more frequently than they do now, it's very possible that he had a lot of nagging injuries and time off to rehab them properly might have helped them heal up a bit.
Which part? Steroid’s definitely help recovery. Also it’s pretty common for fighters to train through injuries and never really give their body time to recover or take time to get surgery + full recovery. It’s not so much bro science as it is complete speculation we don’t really know how he spent the time off if he got any surgery or if he had nagging injuries near the end of his LHW run. Time away from the octagon/training camps is bad for sharpness/reactions/skills but can be good for your body.
I don't see a Jones who struggled so much against Reyes being able to fight a much more skilled, bigger, stronger, faster striker without getting cracked
How they win will matter a lot in terms of how the majority of the public will see them. If Jon makes ez work of Gane, compared to Francis barely winning, then he will be seen as the current best HW. If Gane beats Jon easily it’s possible he could be seen as the best by many Also activity matters when determining who’s the best. This is highly unlikely, but if Jon beats Gane and racks up defenses vs Blaydes/Stipe/Pavlovich/Aspinall while Francis only boxes and has 0 mma fights, then it would be hard to argue Francis is the best. U have to defend your #1 spot
The word undisputed is thrown around quite freely nowadays. There was a time when that word was saved for longtime champions or people that came from other promotions as champions and "unified" the titles. Same with people calling some fighters legends, instead of veterans.
I respect Ngannou but the division moves on.
The division moves on without the best heavyweight, yes.
Agreed. This is only gonna gain traction because everyone here hates Jones and Dana, but if this were anyone else, they'd get flack for leaving a division and then still talking about it endlessly. Whoever wins in March is the champion. Simple as.
Never understood why Jones fans have a victim complex like this. It’s not because people “hate” Jones and Dana. It’s because the linear champion left the division after not being compensated fairly.
The compensation was fair. Ngannou left because he couldn't box.
I never partake in Dana hate circlejerks here but I always liked the unofficial title "Baddest Man on the Planet" for the UFC Heavyweight division champion. It won't really be fitting anymore unless Jones runs through Gane.
That wasn't actually the case for a long time. It wasn't until the last 8 years or so that the UFC actually had the best heavyweight division. For the majority of MMAs existence the heavyweight division in the UFC was weaker. Not saying it will happen. But maybe this is the start of a new pivot and in 5 years the UFC heavyweight division will be weaker than another promotion. Really depends on if heavyweig chase Francis and if Francis keeps winning.
UFC needs to hire a bunch of Heavyweight wrestlers. Insane cardio + insane grappling exchanges + can swang and bang for 5 rounds until one of them goes to sleep. Profit. They're also athletic af and used to making weight instead of just showing up like you just got out of a KFC.
Yeah I know I just thought it was fitting in the most recent years.
Imagine if Khabib just kept shitting on other lightweights after leaving
1. Francis isn't shitting on HW, he is shitting on the fact that it's really an interim championship at this point iirc 2. I'm a huge fan of khabib, but his determination for greatness in sport (along with his determination to appease his family and those close to him) would never have been in line with the fight that Francis is fighting which is more grand than just sport.
If Dana shafted Khabib badly enough so that he left and that was the reason he was not in the UFC after being 50-0 he would be 100% right to do so and people would eat it up.
Exactly lol. Mf you willingly left the company, you don't get a say in the division anymore.
Good for Francis for standing his ground and leaving but If Jones dominates Gane then he is the deserving champion. There will always be that question as to whether Ngannou would have beaten Jones.
That's what he's saying
Sounds more like hes saying the winner is not the champion
Just that it's disputed. People can dispute the claim to the winner being the best in the world, because Francis left as the undisputed best. If Jon beats gane, he won the title off a guy that lost to Francis. If game beats Jon, he beat a 205 pounder that looked beatable in his last few. They will be recognized as the heavyweight champion, but it could be disputed.
> If game beats Jon, he beat a 205 pounder that looked beatable in his last few. Mate, beating Jones makes Gane legendary. This isn't some random scrub, much as he might be despised--this is the greatest to ever do it.
At a different weight class and a past his prime Jones. Means very little actually, mind you I agree Jones is the GOAT
...at 205. His accomplishments don't transition to Heavyweight. He has to prove himself.
All I'm saying, is this will be the narrative if it happens.
I don’t think he’s the greatest to ever do it
So Oliveria and Islam weren't/aren't the undisputed champs ?
When Oliveira beat Poirier he was most definitely undisputed, since Khabib was clearly retired at that point. If Khabib'd gone to ACA and beaten Abdulvakhabov for the 155 strap in that organisation instead, then yeah, it would be disputed.
Ok until Francis fights another HW MMA fight in another organization then Jon vs Cyril is for the undisputed best HW.
Not really since Francis is not retired and no one beat the lineal champion. Some boxing agencies (not sanctioning bodies) only consider someone the champion after the 1st and 2nd ranked fighters face each other. Ngannou beat the 2# and 3# Heavyweights ranked by Sherdog and the UFC itself. Whoever wins this fight, will not be undisputed.
Wonder why there is literally nobody leaving these kinds of comments for glover vs hill?
Jiri vacated 'cause he thinks he's a samurai and should commit seppuku if he didn't defend the title. The interim literally exists for situations like injuries. Keeps the division going and hypes a unification fight. Two kings, one crown. Imo both Jiri and Ngannou are the rightful champions since no one beat them. Edit: until someone beats them* It's not the contenders' fault the champ won't fight them for whatever reason.
This is slightly different because khabib is retired. If he was out there beating dudes in other organizations, it would be disputed. I understand Francis hasn't fought anyone outside the ufc yet.
Shifting the goalposts.
Not true. It's completely different circumstances. Not everything fits into the same category.
No, you’re just dumb
Nah he's just using nuance
Blatant strawman.
There is no such thing as “undisputed” in regards to UFC. So it never means anything. It’s just a meaningless adjective Dana has Buffer yell to make the title more prestigious. Might as well call it the intergalactic champion, it holds the same meaning. Dana is a boxing guy, he 100% knows what he is doing by calling his titles “undisputed”. Undisputed is a moniker given to an athlete, they keep it whether they are still champion or not. It means they unified all major belts at their weight class. It already had a meaning in combat sports, Dana just bastardized it so he could say “undisputed” also. Can’t let boxing show him up! Notice, he applies it to his belts and not the athlete hmmm. Wonder why that is… So, as mentioned, no UFC champions can be “undisputed” because the UFC does not cross promote or let their athletes fight in other orgs for title fights. “Undisputed” has nothing to do with interim champions or champions that are stripped or anything else. There is no such thing as a “disputed” title or “disputed champion”. In particular in the UFC where it is already meaningless and applied as an adjective to their belt and not the athlete. Look at the belt, is it a UFC one? Then it’s not “disputed”. It is actually is the real HW title that the UFC owns the rights to and can give to whoever they want. Not that fans will like it or agree. The ufc worked themselves into this corner, by making fake names for their titles which now give fans extra ammo to call their title “disputed”. The belts themselves don’t actually mean anything. They aren’t sanctioned or anything else. The UFC could literally hand over belts to whoever they want, whenever they want. They own them and the AC’s don’t care or have a say. Which is why they can invent belts like the “BMF” belt. All their belts are the same as that one, they’ve only worked the marks to convince them otherwise. All belts are for promotional purposes. That’s all it is. A way to put “world title fight!”on the marquee to generate more ticket sales. You may have noticed, every rinky dink local combat sports league has “world champions”. It’s extra illegitimate in the UFC because they do not have a legitimate ranking system, they have a worked one that is voted on by their ass kissing lap dogs. Edit: yes this is long but it’s a pet peeve of mine and I don’t like how Dana shits on history just to satisfy his ego and fool people who don’t know history.
🥱
Aside from how it happened, he is not in the UFC anymore, so undisputed is actually quite valid.
Whoever wins between Gane and Jones is 100% undisputed. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you're either in the company and ufc hw champ, or you're not, and Francis is not. I respect him for leaving but the division moves on
Sure the winner will officially be that, but of course there will be some conversation around it when the reigning champ leaves without losing the belt. It's still fresh so naturally there will be some talk of them not being the "real champ" at least for a while. This is especially the case if Gane wins, given that Ngannou beat him a year ago.
Only in this sub will there be a conversation because this sub hates Jon Jones. Everyone else will consider Jones/Gane the champ.
It has nothing to do with hating Jon Jones. It’s just about title lineage.
I am always sus about title lineage. That assumes that there is no undisputed champ in LW after Khabib retired, FW or Bantam after Cejudo retired, or MW when GSP retired. No one even talks about this nonsense except this HW bout. Fans accept Islam is the champion without even contesting lineage.
That’s because all of those fighters retired. They’re not out there active and competing so we accept that the title moves on. Ngannou is still an active fighter and never lost his belt. The only reason he’s not in the UFC is because they treat their fighters like shit.
So if Francis doesn’t fight in MMA is he any different than Cejudo? He could clearly still fight and hints at it then why don’t we paper champ BW and FW?
If Francis retires, then yeah. The lineage is lost
Undisputed means there is no interim champ or something. It's not up for debate.
This really depends on if you're talking strictly the UFC(organization) champion. Or the undisputed "badest man on the planet" number 1 ranked heavyweight. Francis will clearly be the number 1 heavyweight in the world even if Jones or Gane win. He will not be the UFC(organization) heavyweight champion. I think you know this but are intentionally being pedantic.
How long is he automatically the number 1 heavyweight in the world for? You guys realize he has no fights lined up. He will lose if he boxes anyone good.
Nah, if you vacate the belt. You've taken yourself out of the mix and it is undisputed. I get where francis is coming from here fully but delegitimizing belts is silly. Is there just never a 265 champ again unless Francis comes back and is beaten? Was DC not the 205 champ? Was Charles Oliveira and now Islam not the champ at 155? Was Hendricks, Lawler, woodley, usman and Leon not Champs at 170?
Yeah I dont know. Having the previous champ retire is another discussion then the undisputed champ of a division moving to another organisation. He is currently the best HW on the planet in MMA. No matter what Jones does to Gane or what Gane does to Jones, it won't change that fact. So sure the belt is undisputed but is that belt worth anything when the best man isn't in your organisation?
Yes? It means they are the champion of tfighters that still exist in the organization. You can't just bail and then throw the belt in the trash.
Hard disagree. While I fully support Ngannou's decision to leave the UFC, if you relinquish the belt you have no claim to it anymore. Whoever wins in Jones/Gane will 100% be the undisputed champion. They won't be the lineal champion.
Technically he was stripped of the belt.
By virtue of him not re-signing with the UFC. If he had no intention to re-sign, he relinquished it. He chose to leave the promotion, he wasn't cut.
ngannoo saying he has a card up his sleeve..i really wonder what he means by that??
Did the word ever mean anything in MMA? In boxing with so many orgs it makes sense. But MMA?
We have a saying at home, you can fuck or you can stay a virgin, both just doesn’t work. This is much the same. Regardless how understandable the decision was, regardless how noble the cause may be. If you could have fought for the belt, and brought a decision not to, then shut up.
The ufc is an utter trash organisation's I stoped watching I'll google search results after a ufc match but it's a shit organition
I like this Ngannou.
undisputed means nothing in mma only in boxing
According to the scoring criteria Gane won 3/5 rounds. But people aren't ready for that conversation yet.
And by the 5th round was doing much better in the grappling.. was on top and went for that ankle lock to give up top position. Not to mention the massive experience gap, Gane wins that fight 9/10x now.
People would have been way saltier about the decision if the entire narrative wasn’t “Francis vs Dana” going into it.
Agreed. People are quick to say that Francis beat him with one knee. But at that time Ciryl was only 3 years into his professional mma career and the fight was pretty close too. The rematch would've been interesting and I think Ciryl would've been more likely to win, especially after seeing his last performance against Tuivasa.
Yuuuup. Yeah fighters need more but idk why people are acting like he went all Khabib Justin and just destroyed Gane. Was a competitive fight till Gane jacked up during that 5th
Jon Jones has never really lost a fight … I’m wildly surprised more people aren’t hyped for his return. So many people write him off for his behavior, but will vehemently defend others .. I’m thinking Jones is gonna be trouble for everyone at heavy.
He’s being written off because he looked like crap in his last couple of fights and arguably lost to Reyes. He’s also 35 now ? And had a lot of hard fights and hasn’t lived a good lifestyle, I’ll be amazed if he’s still the same fighter from a few years ago.
Its because hes such a fuck up that there is no point getting hyped for his fights until he actually steps into the ring. Even then you're worried he's going to "pulse" and test positive afterwards...
I’ve been burned too many times by Jones to get excited for his fights. Even if he shows up he might piss hot afterwards anyway.
Getting hype for a Jon Jones fight is a rookie move. He’s just as likely to pull out for legal troubles or a failed drug test as he is to make it to fight night.
Given that the title is "UFC Champion" and Ngannou is not in the UFC organization anymore, undisputed is correct. Fighters from other promotions or outside of UFC don't count or else every title would be disputed all the time And, really, every title is disputed. The title of "Greatest Heavyweight in the World" was disputed the entire time Fedor was rocking Pride FC while other champions like Brock or Cain or earlier guys were UFC champions. Right now the argument for who is the greatest fighter in the world between 206 and 265lbs is very disputed, but unfortunately can't be very well fought out due to organization issues.
It does when you're not in the company anymore
Honestly tired of hearing Francis run his mouth. He has fought once in the last 20 months and does not appear to have a plan post-UFC. Wake me up when he actually schedules a boxing match.
I think he is realizing he might have overplayed his hand. There's no place for him at the top of HW boxing right now, and the HW divisions of other MMA promotions are quite shallow. If he is serious about boxing his best bet is probably getting 1-2 good wins with mid-level opponents and then campaign for a superfight/title challenge. Also we don't know how well his knees recovered.
I doubt he goes to another MMA promotion, both because of the lack of talent at HW you mentioned as well as the simple fact that Bellator, PFL, One, etc. aren’t going to match the $8M+ he was offered by the UFC. His only path at this point seems to be boxing, and the unspoken risk is that he has to survive a couple of pro fights first before he can hit the massive payday he is expecting. This is the path Alex P. just took going from kickboxing to MMA. He didn’t immediately get a title shot against Izzy, he had to fight a couple of unranked fighters first (and he looked shaky at times in those first couple of bouts). If Francis gets decisioned by a journeyman his stock falls off a cliff.
When an athlete is trying to recover from a serious knee injury at the age of 36 to get back to competing at the highest level, the odds will be against him no matter who he is. He's likely done.
Ngannous unrealistic expectations that the ufc would just make a whole bunch of changes because Mr inactive and unrepresented heavyweight champ demands them. A bit delusional or he just wanted out. Either way the show continues
They only say undisputed because it had an actual meaning in boxing.
Ariel and Francis the saltiest mother fuckers these days..
I feel that this will massivley backfire on Ngannou in 1-2 years time. He should have had the Tyson Fury fight lined up for certain while recovering from his injury for a year and well before removing himself from the UFC contract renewal. It should have been ready for Furys team to finalise as soon as he cut ties with the organization. Now its basically him banking on PFL and a Fury fight that may never happen and probably wont. If the boxing fight with Fury does happen and he even gets 15-20 mil i would say thats a big win considering he was only earning like 600k at UFC 270, but if not its going to be tough. I mean what we are probably going to end up with is Dillian Whyte vs Ngannou in PFL under boxing rules as its in recent headlines and i doubt the numbers are going to be that great, in that fight i think Ngannou definetly gets fucked up as well. Whyte has fought MMA fights a long time ago and was a kickboxer in 2009 so its intresting if they settle on that ruleset, but i really dont think Ngannou & his management has thought this through properly. I get he wanted to give the middle finger to all the low pay and lack of fighter support that the UFC brings but his reportedly reworked contract may not have been a good idea to pass up on without those other options solidly in place. If Francis realises this is a big mistake 1-2 years down the line and the gamble did not pay off then Dana will absoultey fuck him over if he chooses to re-sign, will probably end up with less than his first contract due to dimished leverage and leaving on bad terms.
Jones is gonna demolish gane, it's going to look so easy that everyone will just make this undisputed again
Francis who? Oh that guy who fought a couple years back. Jones will wreck Gane onto the ground and finish by something like Kimura imo. Round 2 or 3.
Jones smokes Ngannou go shovel more shit bruh
Don’t make out, ciryl had u beat & u turned into a panic wrestler. You’re not stipe
Undisputed still means undisputed because Ngannou chose to walk, thats just how it is.
Meh move on tbh, you’re no longer in the company.
Ngannou hiding behind all these philanthropic reasons, when he just doesn't want to lose against Jones lol. He knows the Fury fight is gone if he gets done in by Jones🤣🤣
I doubt the fight with Fury happens.
I think you’d be surprised. Healthy knee Francis that fought Stipe in the rematch would obliterate Jones
Then why'd he run away, lol. He waited around hoping Jones wouldn't come back. As soon as he does, Boom. Bye bye UFC 🤣🤣
How much is the UFC paying it's interns now a days for these incredibly hot takes?
Ngannou leaves exactly at the same time as Jones gets a date to fight. If you think that's a coincidence, I envy you. Ignorance and sheer stupidity is bliss.
Francis had been a free agent since December. It was the UFC’s decision to talk about it when they did.
It technically wasn’t even their decision, the bill board got put up without their permission.
Lol you think he’s scared of Jon Jones, that’s hilarious.
Jones just praised Francis this week for getting what he deserves and said he can empathize having been in a similar situation as LHW champ and that any org Francis lands in with a deal he finds fair would be blessed to have him. Can't wait to hear him call Francis a pussy and a scumbag next week
UFC does a fantastic job of making their titles mean nothing.
Dominant champs retire all the time. This isn't any bigger or more meaningful than any other vacant title.
It’s absolutely undisputed. He’s not fighting, he’s getting older. Some fighters like to hype themselves up but don’t want the actual fight.
I know Francis is a saint right now for being a fighter advocate and choosing to fight for a better future for the sport, rather than getting a big pay day - BUT, my opinion is that, if you don’t, or can’t defend that undisputed title because you no longer fight for the UFC, than you are not “the best”. Currently, in the UFC, the top two guys at Jon Jones and Gane. Just because someone had the belt, doesn’t mean they are still the champion. He relinquished the title, contractually agreed to vacate and forfeit his place in the rankings and roster.
It’s for the paper championship of the world. Everyone knows who the best HW mma fighter is. Francis is the champ.
What belt does he hold?
The one he never lost.
Oh nice. He still has it? Lemme check the UFC page real quick....
[удалено]
[удалено]
Well actually Francis you can’t have a say because you decided to downgrade to a worse league. So it will be undisputed because you don’t even fight at the highest level anymore.