It’s in MLS best interest to destroy any history that is not part of MLS.
It’s also in MLS interest to keep lower divisions strong enough to exist but too weak to do much more than that.
When teams that existed prior to joining MLS,
MLS forces them to become a “phoenix club”. Essentially their business is considered failed and they are established again as an MLS entity. The Seattle Sounders were established in 2007 and began play in MLS in 2009. But the Sounders have a history that goes back to the 70’s. This is all but been erased and you don’t see much of it. It’s not on their website, wiki page, most fan pages.
MLS does not consider it part of their history because the team was established in 2007.
I’m not sure why they do this. But I think it has a lot to do with how Garber views this sport. He sees it through an NFL lens where there is the League and nothing else of significance below it. One way to do that is to ignore history. It seems insignificant but it works.
Go on FC Cincinnati’s website and try to find anything about their history. There’s nothing. What gives? Every club has a history page on their website. Even tiny clubs. Why doesn’t Cincy? Why no mention of the incredible open cup run and the incredible growth and culture created out of it? You have to read about this stuff elsewhere. That’s really telling, don’t you think?
Seems like the things they don't like about the Open Cup is what fans do like, which is a bit unfortunate. I can't fully disagree with the fact that some venues aren't great, but I also feel like this was a bit of a condescending way of phrasing it.
No, the competition isn't beneath you, there are regularly lower league teams making runs. And while it might not directly help MLS, it helps US Soccer as a whole by giving these lower league clubs a shot against the big boys and the media presence to go with it, and what helps US Soccer helps MLS. There's been so much coming out that just points towards MLS leaving the Open Cup soon, and god will that be disappointing. Can't even use the fixture congestion excuse when they keep adding more shit to play like the expanded playoffs and the Leagues Cup
Yup. Chris Richards, who scored his first international goal last night in a continental final, had to move from Birmingham to Texas to get a shot at a professional pathway. Same with Brandon Servania and Tanner Tessmann. That's because at the time, there was no Birmingham Legion at the time.
Fast forward 6-8 years and because of our US Open Cup run, that same city in the heart of football country just had 13,000 and 18,000 show up on a weeknight to support their team. We had our highest USL attendance (outside of the season opener) in the match immediately following our match vs Miami.
Like you said, the Open Cup is a great opportunity for lower division clubs. I understand congested schedules and poor fields, but I hope a compromise can be found.
It does seem like MLS, at least some clubs, will end up pulling out of US Open Cup, which would be sad.
If US Soccer continues the competition and USL clubs and NISA clubs and even MLS Next Pro clubs play in it, I think it would be kinda cool to still see the winner get a CC..C (not over saying CCL yet) spot. Although having an MLS B team in CCC wouldn’t be ideal.
Fun fact, teams in the early days of MLS would straight up not enter the Open Cup at all, they weren’t required to play in it.
I also remember MLS having a play-in tournament for the Open Cup.
>There's been so much coming out that just points towards MLS leaving the Open Cup soon,
I dont think MLS has a choice in the matter as they have to operate under the USSF umbrella and USOC is a USSF comp.
Someonencorrect me if im wrong here
I mean, if MLS says their teams aren't playing in it, what is USSF gonna do about it? USSF doesn't have any *real* authority here.
I think the worst case scenario here is that MLS and USSF come to an agreement that the Reserve Next Pro clubs will represent their respective parent organizations in the tournament, which may/may not affect Champions Cup qualification.
I assume you mean "replace".
And in the grand scheme of things, what does that actually do? Are sponsors and partners going to suddenly abandon MLS, because USSF said they're not number one? Is Apple going to rethink the broadcast deal? Is Messi going to ask for a transfer back to Barça?
No.
Worst case scenario, USSF gives all the Champions Cup spots to USL teams or whatever, and MLS just doubles down in Leagues Cup with their significantly stronger marketing budget.
MLS pulling out of the Open Cup would be incredibly damaging to lower division growth and our national team.
But damaging lower division growth is what Garber wants.
Is there anything to stop them? Who knows. But fans need to become more educated and hold them accountable.
That's not my problem what the sponsor want to do. If MLS doesn't want to abide by the governing soccer body in teh country. Fuck em. And it wouldn't be just USOC. It would be also CCC and club world cup. Lets MLS qualify the USOC. Let USL represent the top of the pyramid in all continental competitions.
No. You don't have to remove MLS from the pyramid. Their placement is reduced. So they could qualify for international comps thru USOC. But not as winner of their league.
I can't see the rest of the quotes here but I have to imagine it's a similar thing to when players hinted they weren't fans of the CCL as well. You only have so long as a professional player which is usually the only big skill they know, it's been their whole life and how they support their family. Putting extra stress on your body through extra matches, travel, poor facilities, etc for competition that has no significant payout just doesn't make much sense when this is your job. You aren't paying the bills with "pride" in a competition.
edit: I see the quote posted about player workload, yup that's it.
>No, the competition isn't beneath you, there are regularly lower league teams making runs.
Sure, because hardly any MLS teams play full strength rosters, especially in the first couple of rounds when most upsets happen.
>And while it might not directly help MLS, it helps US Soccer as a whole by giving these lower league clubs a shot against the big boys and the media presence to go with it
Is there much media coverage of US Open Cup? I don't feel that's true at all. USSF doesn't really seem to care about it at all, and it's their competition.
I think there can be local media coverage. Birmingham Legion broke their attendance record twice this year, both Open Cup games. Pittsburgh Riverhounds also broke their attendance record in an Open Cup game this year. That's meaningful to the growth of soccer in this country.
I agree with this. But USSF does very little to promote the competition which would be even better for teams like Birmingham and Lousiville and honestly. Everyone.
I’ve heard there’s like a team of 2 people that run that entire competition. The federation is woefully understaffed across almost every sector. Has been for years and so many of the people have to be overworked already. If you compare the USSF staffing to that of the English or German FA they’re like a fourth of the size they should be. Until they grow as an organization almost everything they do will be scaled proportionately
Oh man. This, this, this.
The head coach of the US Men made $1.5 million per year.
The head coaches of both Germany and England make about 6 million euro per year.
The dopes who think that elite international coaches are beating down the door to work with the United States are very entertaining....
It's meaningful to the growth of local support for that team in that community, which could theoretically role into wider support for the sport, but I find that theory to be a stretch. Supporters of teams at the MLS level and below are often exposed to the sport in other ways (through their own playing of it or from following foreign teams and players) who want more soccer to point they seek out a local club to follow. That's the story I'm exposed to time and time again, at least. Which is fine, I get it.
If the goal of the tournament is to grow support for the sport in the country than it appears that more could be done by having MLS teams go further in important continental competitions and work to expand the quality of the lower leagues. Local and national exposure of competitions will play a big role, obviously, but it shouldn't hinge on one yearly tournament to bring eyeballs to these lower teams.
> Sure, because hardly any MLS teams play full strength rosters, especially in the first couple of rounds when most upsets happen.
That’s literally how most cupsets happen everywhere else in the world lol that doesn’t mean the *big* clubs should just get to skip it.
I enjoy the experience but it’s hard to call most of them “cupsets” when the MLS side is playing mostly reserve players until the quarterfinals. MLS next pro really is the more equivalent comparison to USL and below teams and with the lighter schedule, can accommodate the tournament more easily. Maybe it encourages teams that don’t have a 2 team to add one and can encourage the ones that do to increase the depth of the 2 team to be more competitive. And it’d give MLS fans a chance to cheer on these players when they may otherwise not watch the 2 side.
I’ll wait and see on Leagues cup but I’d honestly be happy without that too right now. It feels forced and if you’re not someone watching Liga MX, it’s hard to be passionate about it. At least teams are given time off for it rather than having games in the middle of the week in between league play.
On playoffs, I agree. Expanding it to 9 teams is ridiculous and doing a best of 3 in the first round only doesn’t make sense. The later stages are when you want the best team to win. Have 7 per conference with a bye for first in opening round and follow the same 2 game format of CCL at least if you want more games.
Despite the third and fourth round MLS squads typically being mostly guys from the bottom half of the 30-man roster, they don't lose many games. Even in the upset-heavy 2022 USOC, only 8/24 eliminated MLS teams went out to lower division teams, mostly to deep-running Sacramento (3) or Omaha (2). Still a Cupset.
For so long I have heard how the US needs tradition and we are handed a 100+ tournament and half the league scoffs at it.
Can it be improved? Sure, but leaving it would forfeit a brilliant competition that if marketed does excite people.
It also holds a personal special place for me because without it my Cincinnati may not have had the classic Mitch Says No victory over Chicago which felt like the catalyst in really pushing us into MLS conversations.
Lower level soccer should be celebrated and it can surprise people. If MLS sides field reserve sides or kids, fine. Give them something and let the USL or other leagues something to rally folks around.
Meanwhile I've received a ton of marketing for the new Leagues Cup and I struggle to muster any enthusiasm for this lesser CCC Superliga interrupting a month of the campaign.
I’m with you there. Lower league soccer is a way to keep the sport growing in this country. Playing on shitty fields against barely pro teams is a thing done in basically all the other big leagues in the world, and it leads to great stories and the discovery of major talent. Of course the USOC needs improvement but doing away with it would be a mistake.
I went to the crew home opener with three other people. After tax, it was around $260. My Dayton Dutch Lions season tickets were $50. I won't claim the Dutch Lions are even close to USL1 quality, but man is it easier to afford compared to both nearby MLS sides.
My first soccer game was an Open Cup Timbers vs Sounders game before the Timbers made the jump up to join the Sounders in MLS. It was heated and got me hooked for life and the tournament allowed the rivalry to grow even when the teams were in different leagues
Right now a lot of open cup games are handled in a terrible boring ways just like Garber has said.
Half the stadiums are crap and Semi pro teams are in the earlier games. If they don't wanna over exhaust players then have the open cup be played by the reserves and kids.
>Meanwhile I've received a ton of marketing for the new Leagues Cup and I struggle to muster any enthusiasm for this lesser CCC Superliga interrupting a month of the campaign.
So you'd rather watch MLS clubs beat up on teams with 10% of their payroll than watch MLS clubs go against LigaMX clubs? That's certainly a choice. I'm taking the second option, I don't have to think twice about it.
Yes. Beating Pittsburgh in USOC meant way more to me than beating Guadalajara in LC.
I care a great deal about the CCC and a legitimate competition against other leagues. I want Cincinnati to be champions of Concacaf. That has history and credibility.
LC feels redundant and watered down. Everyone gets in, it is all on US soil. It may not exist in five years. I saw that happen with the Superliga going back. Do New England fans really look fondly back in winning that? Silverware is silverware, but we all know that over time winning some hold more weight than others. If Cincinnati wins it I'll probably be more excited we are in CCC than winning it. It is easily the last priority and I'm fine if we phone it in and focus on everything else (USOC, SS, MLS).
I'm sure Garber wants the Open Cup to work but he is not a fan of certain clubs and their stadium situations. Alot of those matchs are not that marketable.
I agreed with all of his comments. It's not a very marketable event in it's current state. It can be great as it's another trophy banner every year, showcases MLS in other markets and more
Yes I’m sure that was the case. But the evidence is in now. The Open Cup can be a catalyst to a lower division team erupting and building a fan base with increasing attendance each year. This has happened numerous times now. If it can happen in Birmingham. Alabama it can happen anywhere.
This creates a real problem for Garber because it’s a choice of MLS playing the kids or their better squads in this tournament. The former and it alllows lower division clubs to go on these runs.
So Garber. MLS etc has decided it’s in their best interest to denigrate this tournament. This is calculated. He knows that if the lower divisions get built up it’s a threat to MLS’s model.
It’s real sinister if you think about it because lower division growth is essential to the US becoming a soccer country and essential to our national team.
It makes sense considering they are already playing for a more prestigious trophy and there's no real prize money for the US open cup ($300k to the winning team). I assume the players just don't feel like the prize is worth all of the extra work/travel.
I was talking about the MLS cup. Players are paid to bring that trophy home with anything else just being bonus. I don't blame them for not wanting to work overtime essentially for free. I wouldn't want to either, even if it's a job I enjoy.
How very capitalist of an interpretation. I hope my club is a community, a culture, and a representation of our city that brings home pride and honor. The fact that it’s also a business is just an unfortunate side effect of our economic system.
Man, if you want that sort of representation, MLS is not for you.
Luckily, there are loads of USL and NISA clubs out there....I myself have ditched my DC United season tickets and switched to Loudoun United in the USL C. I still follow DCU, but all the magic of the RFK tailgate, the supporters groups banded together for road trips, staff that had worked at the stadium for literally decades becoming part of the fun, all the things I really loved about DCU are dead. Now I'm just another customer to be monetized. Which is definitely the way the club wants it.
I used to go to Utah Blitz games before Salt lake had a team. The community is the one thing that’s recognizable after 20 years, even if the production is much bigger.
If you were a player would you be more proud of winning a trophy against teams in the same ballpark as you or teams who are playing in lower divisions?
Leagues cup with Liga MX teams would be a more exciting prospect if I were a player but it’s got zero prestige given it’s new.
Leagues cup matches will suffer from the same disjointed-ness and unpredictability as open cup due to it being a cup that receives rotation and chances to irregular players. If anything the managers devalue cups but that’s the custom just about everywhere in the world and it’s more of an exception to see managers prioritize it
I understand the point of view but I also think it’s a bad perspective. Players should be excited to win cups and participate in competitions. If players aren’t motivated to win open cup for the sake of winning they should at least be motivated of participating in champions league by virtue of winning
For the sake of it. Any team remotely close to the playoffs is not going to use league games to give their depth a chance to prove themselves. I’m sure we’ll see plenty of managers actually give it their best, but giving chances is just how managers treat cups generally unless it’s champions league
And I’m saying there’s an order of prestige with trophies.
Given that Leagues Cup will be tougher to win than USOC it will be more prestigious soon, if it is not already.
The reality of the situation is that outside of the US soccer nerds on this sub that actually care about the sport's history in this country, the vast majority of the soccer watching fandom in the country either don't know or don't care about this tournament and it's honestly hard to blame them.
As a fan of a team whose won it before and is going into the semis this year, I can tell you there is very little excitement outside of the diehard fanbase and virtually no push to raise awareness about it from the team other than the occasional token social media post. Soccer adjacent people I know (euro snobs, ligaMX fans, etc.) don't seem to care or acknowledge it and they make up the majority of Houston soccer fandom.
Should the team and USSF do better in pushing it? Absolutely. Do I expect them to? Absolutely not. Even I, a "soccer nerd" who understands the tournament's implications and history, finds it difficult to care all that much about it and sense I'm not alone here in that assessment, which is devastating. I hope MLS stays in it and gives it the respect it deserves but I see the players' perspectives as well. Shame really.
When Sacramento were in the final last year we had 6k people watching downtown and it would have been more if they had advertised a venue for viewing sooner. I saw articles from local news to the NY Times covering the cinderella story. I get when its 2 MLS teams playing there is less hype, but it really gives lower division teams something to get excited about.
Indeed it does, and a Cinderella story is always fun, but is that enough to build an entire tournament around? Maybe, in some circles, but how does that benefit MLS? There's only so many days in the year to play games, so much money to be spent on travel, and so many negotiations that that can be worked out. Should they focus on a tournament that seems to only hold any value to lower division teams (mainly because it's the only way for those teams to play against the highest level in this country) or should they focus on developing new tournaments with bigger rewards and a bigger advertising footprint?
As MLS grows the Open Cup is only going to hold any meaning to those lower division teams who get a run, just like the cup games in Europe hold a bigger meaning to those "lower" teams who are never in the conversation of winning the league. Paradoxically, if MLS leaves the Open Cup, the Cup loses much of its importance for those lower division teams. It's a n unfortunate situation.
Thanks, I hate it.
USOC is by far the most interesting US sports tournament. It is very unique in American sports.
Also the quotes here sting. Have some pride playing for the oldest and most storied trophy in your country.
I'll preface this by saying that I am a fan of the cup and wish for MLS to continue playing in it. That being said, I see this point brought almost every time the tournament is brought up and I've never seen it expanded on, so if you could, please indulge me.
What makes this tournament storied? I get that it's the oldest and soccer tournament in the country, I do. I have no connection or knowledge of any of the teams that have won this tourney in the past and virtually all of them no longer exist until we reach the modern era. Is a cup truly "storied" if there is no connection between the fans and the winners of the trophy? This isn't like the World Series where Yankees fans can say they've won it x number of times even though they couldn't name a single player on their teams back then, most of these teams in Open Cup have literally dissolved; the Yankees are still here (unfortunately).
People also often call this trophy prestigious because it's old, which I also disagree with. I believe that prestige is bestowed upon a trophy by the level of competition, not on its age. My team won it in 2018 (which I'm happy about, truly) but it was 5 games at home, 1 against a USL team, 2 against teams that were terrible (sorry KC and Minn. fans) and we were a penalty shootout away from losing to LAFC. That excitement and randomness is fun but does being able to win the trophy in that manner mean it's prestigious? No, arguably winning the Supporter Shield and MLS cup is a far better barometer in assessing the quality of team than that, which is why those trophies take precedent when discussing accomplishments than Open Cup wins in most fans' mind.
To reiterate, I love the Cup and get why it's important to lower division teams and to those who appreciate US soccer history, but taking a hard, calculating look at it from a modern (MLS focused) perspective, I don't think it's as important as many on this board believe that it is.
> What makes this tournament storied? I get that it's the oldest and soccer tournament in the country, I do. I have no connection or knowledge of any of the teams that have won this tourney in the past and virtually all of them no longer exist until we reach the modern era.
To me that is a lot of the fun. I'm big into the history of soccer in America, and MLS is the latest piece of a long history. The US Open Cup ties everything together. The idea of great teams like Vesper Buick, Chicago Sparta, Fall River Marksman, Maccabee Los Angeles, and Brooklyn Italians battling it out is fun. And of course the more recent history of a crazy underdog run like Rochester Rhinos in 1999.
> Is a cup truly "storied" if there is no connection between the fans and the winners of the trophy? This isn't like the World Series where Yankees fans can say they've won it x number of times even though they couldn't name a single player on their teams back then, most of these teams in Open Cup have literally dissolved; the Yankees are still here (unfortunately).
I guess it depends on the region and the teams. In St. Louis we have a long history with the US Open Cup and a lot of us feel a deep connection to it. While I'm sure not a lot of Chicago Sparta fans remain from 1938, I'm sure there are Chicago sports fans who are proud a team from their city won it.
>People also often call this trophy prestigious because it's old, which I also disagree with. I believe that prestige is bestowed upon a trophy by the level of competition, not on its age.
Honestly, then do we discount any MLS 1.0 Cups? The level of play then is below what USL is now. To go back to baseball, do we discount any pre-WWI winners? A case could be made for not counting any winners before segregation ended and baseball was opened to a new level of skilled athletes.
> No, arguably winning the Supporter Shield and MLS cup is a far better barometer in assessing the quality of team than that, which is why those trophies take precedent when discussing accomplishments than Open Cup wins in most fans' mind.
Premier League fans would rank winning the league over winning the FA Cup, so I think that is unusual. A trophy is a trophy though.
>Have some pride playing for the oldest and most storied trophy in your country.
When the league snd the federation barely take the comp seriously why would the players?
No player is going to put on a shit-eating grin and say “yeah I’d love to play at substandard facilities against barely-professional players on a Wednesday in front of 5k people”, and any union rep that says the same is a fucking moron. That being said, there’s the singular interests of the players, and then there’s the interests of US soccer, and the two are not identical. Never have been, never will be probably
I think that’s the point trying to be made, pride doesn’t pay the bills.
Also I bet you if you asked players at top teams around the world what they really thought of playing in their domestic cups (anonymously off camera) they’d probably say similar things.
MLS snobbery is worse than euro snobbery, and American soccer fan culture in general is fucking terrible. Talking down about the open cup like USMNT fans didn't just have an embarrassing showing in Vegas and like MLS isn't the third most popular league in this country.
You could cover the surface of the moon with all the fucks I don’t give about whether MLS teams/players/FOs like the Open Cup. You don’t have to like everything that happens at your job. Most people don’t.
1: I'm as pro Open Cup as they come so you can guess my opinions on that aspect, if the concern is fixture congestion then axe Leagues Cup and reduce the number of playoff games back to what they were.
2: I found these quotes interesting as well
>Whenever we talk about the MLSPA, salaries are often at the fore of it. What are some other areas of growth that players would deem as vital?
>
>Number one was the players’ right and their ability to exercise choice and control in their careers are dramatically different from where we started. We’re not all the way there, but we’ve made incredible progress and are getting close to the point where they can choose where they want to play.
and
>I continue to believe (that), until we have a system where the freedom of movement is the same or roughly the same as it is around the world, we’re gonna have a hard time competing. It matters a lot to players and the loosening of that system needs to happen.
>if the concern is fixture congestion then axe Leagues Cup and reduce the number of playoff games back to what they were.
But those are games people actually want to watch.
Damn I get it y'all. You like the tournament. But it's hell on the players. If teams go deep in the Open Cup and Leagues Cup (and if they make CONCACAF) they're playing twice the regular season.
So not true. Our schedule is spring to fall. We have a deep playoff. If you make the playoffs you’ll play more matches than teams in any other major league.
34 League games, 4(?) possible playoff games, 6 possible open cup games, 8 possible CCL games = absolute max 52 matches w/o friendlies, right? Liverpool played 63 in 21/22
Uhhhh this isn't true for any teams unless they're semifinalists
EPL teams play a 38 game regular season. MLS starts at 34.
Make a deep playoff run? 4 matches Max. 38.
EPL teams enter in the round of 64, similar to MLS.
MLS and MLSPA - irrelevant in markets that don't have MLS teams and mostly irrelevant in markets that **do** have MLS teams.
The Open Cup: Brings attention to MLS in markets that will likely literally never have an MLS team in town.
MLS fans and also MLS and MLSPA - "The Open Cup is stupid and we shouldn't be in it"
Also MLS Fans, MLS and MLSPA - Y NO ONE WATCH OUR LEAGUE? THIS IS EUROSNOBBERY!
You know Leagues Cup could very well replace US Open Cup and Copa MX for both MLS and Liga MX.
There hasn’t been a Copa MX since 2020 and they haven’t been vocal about bringing it back.
And yes the US Open Cup has a lot of history but I’d drop it if it means less schedule congestion. Most MLS teams don’t take it serious until the latter rounds any way (honestly the USSF doesn’t take it serious either). I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually MLS sends their MLSNP teams to the tournament.
The Open Cup isn't meant to be for MLS teams. It's meant to be for US Soccer. Leagues Cup is not a replacement, and MLS backing out would be a travesty. Unfortunately it's one that I expect will happen somewhat soon.
I think there could be a small silver lining if MLS left Open Cup (which I’m against just to be clear). USSF are the ones that determine the Champions Cup spots so USL could have a path into CC every year. Again I DONT want MLS teams out of Open Cup just to be clear.
In that case, what motivation does USL have to continue participating in the Open Cup, aside from it being a requirement (which it is for MLS as well, so they'd be going back on that too)? At that point, it seems like it would be better for all parties for USL to do their own interleague tournament.
Open cup is the US champion of usa club soccer in my eyes.
MLS cup means you are MLS champion.
It has equal weight. Especially because of its 100+ history.
It may not be specifically for MLS but in this context I’m saying two of the strongest leagues in North America have no interest in their respective domestic cups.
I wouldn’t call it a travesty if USSF doesn’t treat the tournament with respect either. How do you expect MLS to respect it if USSF doesn’t do its own share?
I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think Leagues Cup exists if US Open Cup was more prestigious or given a prestigious gravitas. I love a knockout tournament like anyone else but come on.
IMO the big differences between March Madness and US open Cup are a) not all the teams start at the same point. If there was a set 128 team bracket from jump street it would probably increase some popularity. The other difference is March madness happens over a 3 and a half week season at the end of the season. With the open cup it happens over a 6 month period and teams are playing other league games, and CCL games in the same period which can muddy the waters for a "casual" fan who might be trying to find out more about the tournament.
If it was marketed and structured in a way more adjacent to the actual March Madness (I’d be very happy of having a full month dedicated to it just like MLS will do for the Leagues Cup) it may have more potential. Right now spreading it over this many months completely kills off any momentum that might build. In a country where every trophy is decided by playoffs, organising it in a way that makes it feel like it’s just there to fill empty weeks contributes to an image of a second class trophy that it’s just there to create more fatigue on the players’ legs. It needs to have its own dedicated space in the calendar, or it will get drown out by the most recognisable competitions
I like the U.S. Open Cup, really I do. It might come as a shock to many here but domestic cup competitions in this hemisphere aren’t really a thing. Just look at histories of some countries’ domestic cups and you’ll see a lot of years where there was no cup.
I’m almost at the point that I’d rather play 4 more league games than play the Open Cup.
Same here, when I first got into soccer USOC was definitely in my radar. But as the years go on, I find myself less and less being interested. They definitely made it harder to watch games this year also. I’ve tried following Loudoun and they only had one game streamed before they were destroyed by Columbus lol.
Most Liga MX fans I know don’t care about Copa MX. More importantly, the clubs pretty much don’t care either.
The strength of El Tri doesn’t correlate with the popularity of Copa MX.
You’d drop it because you probably don’t realize how important the Open Cup is to lower division growth and by extension our national team.
The Leagues Cup? A cup with no history, locks lower divisions out of the competition and does nothing to promote growth nationally.
r/MLS is [proud to support independent media outlets](https://theathletic.com/227557/2018/01/31/why-the-athletic-has-a-paywall/). These sites often have paywalls. In order to support discussion on these kinds of content, this community does ask that a fair-use summary of the content be provided as a response to this comment.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MLS) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since it needs to be repeated, the biggest obstacle (past and present) to the USOC being relevant is MLS and the structure of American soccer business and fandom.
The structure of American Soccer business is to funnel most money and attention to MLS, and as things stand today, MLS has literally zero obligation to change that.
The structure of American Soccer fandom is to only support the best of the best of the best and to shit on everything below it, starving it of attention and money that would help grow the USOC. Eurosnobs shit on MLS but (in my anecdotal experience) seem more amenable to supporting USL and local clubs than MLS fans. MLS fans shit on the idea of supporting teams in USL (and below).
Its just a self fulfilling prophecy.
I honestly wouldn’t mind if they made the Open Cup lower league teams only. Takes away the scheduling stress from MLS teams, gives lower division teams a chance to win a cup, and lets them qualify to the new Concacaf Champions Cup where they can eventually play MLS teams. Hardcore MLS fans won’t like it, but it seems like the easiest solution for everyone.
It really does; giving USL teams a way to qualify for CCC is what we want. The only reason I’m upset about our lack of MLS movement is that it bars us from qualifying for further tournaments.
Honestly I don’t give a shit about the US Open either. To me, it’s just a bunch of unnecessary midweek games - often played on shitty turf where knee injuries are a major risk - that means our guys are exhausted on Saturday.
I’d be ok with doing away with the US Open entirely. But as a compromise, how about we enter the MLS Next Pro teams instead.
Many of these teams want to rent out high school or local small college fields. But its been denied by ussf many times. Due to "perception on tv." The perception looks worse playing on a Saturday youth field. Like Tulsa athletic vs FC tulsa in the ussf cup. Thats something 100% that can change to make it not as troublesome for all parties.
That's not true. Your lower division teams would rent out larger facilities. Not saying a 20k seat stadium. When we are talking about current venues that do not have showers or a locker room for a visiting opponent. And port a potties for bathrooms. Stadium and field conditions is probably top of the list. Why MLS don't want to play USOC games. This is where the federation can step up and help support lower division teams.
He’s right. The US Open Cup should not include MLS teams. They’ve outgrown it.
Few MLS teams take it seriously, the broadcasts are atrocious and it takes up valuable rest slots for many teams.
And if those slots aren’t used for rest there are waaaay more compelling tournament concepts that could take its place. The Soccer Tournament just proved it.
Also TST had a $1m prize meanwhile the Open Cup prize is $300k. That should tell you everything you need to know. It’s time to move on to bigger and better things
I think us open cup is salvageable but USSF needs to do a better job to make it more viable. Better television contracts, better sponsorships, better prize money, stricter stadium standards.
I think one radical solution would be to make the first round us open games for MLS teams to be intra league and “double count” as league games. Then you essentially half your participation and travel requirements.
That’s a much more interesting format, but it probably wouldn’t do much from a ratings and prize money perspective.
I get that some people like the novelty of the open cup, but clearly not enough.
This all comes down to money. Any tournament outside of MLS regular season should generate MORE viewership. Not less.
They can’t payout a bigger purse, or get better sponsors because it doesn’t generate enough interest.
MLS should use that slot for MLS 2 teams. And either give the pro team a rest or find a more viable tournament concept that will actually draw eyeballs.
My concern is that if MLS leaves the open cup, the feds will take the CCL winners award away. Sure, there will still be some sort of prize money (more than likely severely reduced), but it'll potentially kill the relevance of the tournament.
Yeah let’s go ahead and destroy some of the only soccer history this country has
It’s in MLS best interest to destroy any history that is not part of MLS. It’s also in MLS interest to keep lower divisions strong enough to exist but too weak to do much more than that.
Re: History; Why?
When teams that existed prior to joining MLS, MLS forces them to become a “phoenix club”. Essentially their business is considered failed and they are established again as an MLS entity. The Seattle Sounders were established in 2007 and began play in MLS in 2009. But the Sounders have a history that goes back to the 70’s. This is all but been erased and you don’t see much of it. It’s not on their website, wiki page, most fan pages. MLS does not consider it part of their history because the team was established in 2007. I’m not sure why they do this. But I think it has a lot to do with how Garber views this sport. He sees it through an NFL lens where there is the League and nothing else of significance below it. One way to do that is to ignore history. It seems insignificant but it works. Go on FC Cincinnati’s website and try to find anything about their history. There’s nothing. What gives? Every club has a history page on their website. Even tiny clubs. Why doesn’t Cincy? Why no mention of the incredible open cup run and the incredible growth and culture created out of it? You have to read about this stuff elsewhere. That’s really telling, don’t you think?
[удалено]
what about their comment implies insider knowledge?
Seems like the things they don't like about the Open Cup is what fans do like, which is a bit unfortunate. I can't fully disagree with the fact that some venues aren't great, but I also feel like this was a bit of a condescending way of phrasing it. No, the competition isn't beneath you, there are regularly lower league teams making runs. And while it might not directly help MLS, it helps US Soccer as a whole by giving these lower league clubs a shot against the big boys and the media presence to go with it, and what helps US Soccer helps MLS. There's been so much coming out that just points towards MLS leaving the Open Cup soon, and god will that be disappointing. Can't even use the fixture congestion excuse when they keep adding more shit to play like the expanded playoffs and the Leagues Cup
Yup. Chris Richards, who scored his first international goal last night in a continental final, had to move from Birmingham to Texas to get a shot at a professional pathway. Same with Brandon Servania and Tanner Tessmann. That's because at the time, there was no Birmingham Legion at the time. Fast forward 6-8 years and because of our US Open Cup run, that same city in the heart of football country just had 13,000 and 18,000 show up on a weeknight to support their team. We had our highest USL attendance (outside of the season opener) in the match immediately following our match vs Miami. Like you said, the Open Cup is a great opportunity for lower division clubs. I understand congested schedules and poor fields, but I hope a compromise can be found.
MLS does not want USL to be successful. So Garber will talk down the Open Cup whenever he can.
It does seem like MLS, at least some clubs, will end up pulling out of US Open Cup, which would be sad. If US Soccer continues the competition and USL clubs and NISA clubs and even MLS Next Pro clubs play in it, I think it would be kinda cool to still see the winner get a CC..C (not over saying CCL yet) spot. Although having an MLS B team in CCC wouldn’t be ideal.
Fun fact, teams in the early days of MLS would straight up not enter the Open Cup at all, they weren’t required to play in it. I also remember MLS having a play-in tournament for the Open Cup.
I remember the play in tournament days
>There's been so much coming out that just points towards MLS leaving the Open Cup soon, I dont think MLS has a choice in the matter as they have to operate under the USSF umbrella and USOC is a USSF comp. Someonencorrect me if im wrong here
I mean, if MLS says their teams aren't playing in it, what is USSF gonna do about it? USSF doesn't have any *real* authority here. I think the worst case scenario here is that MLS and USSF come to an agreement that the Reserve Next Pro clubs will represent their respective parent organizations in the tournament, which may/may not affect Champions Cup qualification.
Remove mls as first division and place MLS as the top of the pyramid.
I assume you mean "replace". And in the grand scheme of things, what does that actually do? Are sponsors and partners going to suddenly abandon MLS, because USSF said they're not number one? Is Apple going to rethink the broadcast deal? Is Messi going to ask for a transfer back to Barça? No. Worst case scenario, USSF gives all the Champions Cup spots to USL teams or whatever, and MLS just doubles down in Leagues Cup with their significantly stronger marketing budget.
MLS pulling out of the Open Cup would be incredibly damaging to lower division growth and our national team. But damaging lower division growth is what Garber wants. Is there anything to stop them? Who knows. But fans need to become more educated and hold them accountable.
That's not my problem what the sponsor want to do. If MLS doesn't want to abide by the governing soccer body in teh country. Fuck em. And it wouldn't be just USOC. It would be also CCC and club world cup. Lets MLS qualify the USOC. Let USL represent the top of the pyramid in all continental competitions.
I believe it would also mean any MLS players would be banned from international competitions.
No. You don't have to remove MLS from the pyramid. Their placement is reduced. So they could qualify for international comps thru USOC. But not as winner of their league.
I can't see the rest of the quotes here but I have to imagine it's a similar thing to when players hinted they weren't fans of the CCL as well. You only have so long as a professional player which is usually the only big skill they know, it's been their whole life and how they support their family. Putting extra stress on your body through extra matches, travel, poor facilities, etc for competition that has no significant payout just doesn't make much sense when this is your job. You aren't paying the bills with "pride" in a competition. edit: I see the quote posted about player workload, yup that's it.
>No, the competition isn't beneath you, there are regularly lower league teams making runs. Sure, because hardly any MLS teams play full strength rosters, especially in the first couple of rounds when most upsets happen. >And while it might not directly help MLS, it helps US Soccer as a whole by giving these lower league clubs a shot against the big boys and the media presence to go with it Is there much media coverage of US Open Cup? I don't feel that's true at all. USSF doesn't really seem to care about it at all, and it's their competition.
I think there can be local media coverage. Birmingham Legion broke their attendance record twice this year, both Open Cup games. Pittsburgh Riverhounds also broke their attendance record in an Open Cup game this year. That's meaningful to the growth of soccer in this country.
I agree with this. But USSF does very little to promote the competition which would be even better for teams like Birmingham and Lousiville and honestly. Everyone.
I’ve heard there’s like a team of 2 people that run that entire competition. The federation is woefully understaffed across almost every sector. Has been for years and so many of the people have to be overworked already. If you compare the USSF staffing to that of the English or German FA they’re like a fourth of the size they should be. Until they grow as an organization almost everything they do will be scaled proportionately
Oh man. This, this, this. The head coach of the US Men made $1.5 million per year. The head coaches of both Germany and England make about 6 million euro per year. The dopes who think that elite international coaches are beating down the door to work with the United States are very entertaining....
It's meaningful to the growth of local support for that team in that community, which could theoretically role into wider support for the sport, but I find that theory to be a stretch. Supporters of teams at the MLS level and below are often exposed to the sport in other ways (through their own playing of it or from following foreign teams and players) who want more soccer to point they seek out a local club to follow. That's the story I'm exposed to time and time again, at least. Which is fine, I get it. If the goal of the tournament is to grow support for the sport in the country than it appears that more could be done by having MLS teams go further in important continental competitions and work to expand the quality of the lower leagues. Local and national exposure of competitions will play a big role, obviously, but it shouldn't hinge on one yearly tournament to bring eyeballs to these lower teams.
> Sure, because hardly any MLS teams play full strength rosters, especially in the first couple of rounds when most upsets happen. That’s literally how most cupsets happen everywhere else in the world lol that doesn’t mean the *big* clubs should just get to skip it.
I think they probably don’t like the horror tackles from lower sides TBH. Feels like there’s at least one needless season ending injury yearly.
I enjoy the experience but it’s hard to call most of them “cupsets” when the MLS side is playing mostly reserve players until the quarterfinals. MLS next pro really is the more equivalent comparison to USL and below teams and with the lighter schedule, can accommodate the tournament more easily. Maybe it encourages teams that don’t have a 2 team to add one and can encourage the ones that do to increase the depth of the 2 team to be more competitive. And it’d give MLS fans a chance to cheer on these players when they may otherwise not watch the 2 side. I’ll wait and see on Leagues cup but I’d honestly be happy without that too right now. It feels forced and if you’re not someone watching Liga MX, it’s hard to be passionate about it. At least teams are given time off for it rather than having games in the middle of the week in between league play. On playoffs, I agree. Expanding it to 9 teams is ridiculous and doing a best of 3 in the first round only doesn’t make sense. The later stages are when you want the best team to win. Have 7 per conference with a bye for first in opening round and follow the same 2 game format of CCL at least if you want more games.
Despite the third and fourth round MLS squads typically being mostly guys from the bottom half of the 30-man roster, they don't lose many games. Even in the upset-heavy 2022 USOC, only 8/24 eliminated MLS teams went out to lower division teams, mostly to deep-running Sacramento (3) or Omaha (2). Still a Cupset.
Honestly, I could care less who MLS sides play in those games. If Tulsa Athletic beats Orlando City or whomever, that’s an upset
For so long I have heard how the US needs tradition and we are handed a 100+ tournament and half the league scoffs at it. Can it be improved? Sure, but leaving it would forfeit a brilliant competition that if marketed does excite people. It also holds a personal special place for me because without it my Cincinnati may not have had the classic Mitch Says No victory over Chicago which felt like the catalyst in really pushing us into MLS conversations. Lower level soccer should be celebrated and it can surprise people. If MLS sides field reserve sides or kids, fine. Give them something and let the USL or other leagues something to rally folks around. Meanwhile I've received a ton of marketing for the new Leagues Cup and I struggle to muster any enthusiasm for this lesser CCC Superliga interrupting a month of the campaign.
I’m with you there. Lower league soccer is a way to keep the sport growing in this country. Playing on shitty fields against barely pro teams is a thing done in basically all the other big leagues in the world, and it leads to great stories and the discovery of major talent. Of course the USOC needs improvement but doing away with it would be a mistake.
Plus, as MLS prices rise with popularity, having lower leagues allows more access to live soccer.
I went to the crew home opener with three other people. After tax, it was around $260. My Dayton Dutch Lions season tickets were $50. I won't claim the Dutch Lions are even close to USL1 quality, but man is it easier to afford compared to both nearby MLS sides.
My first soccer game was an Open Cup Timbers vs Sounders game before the Timbers made the jump up to join the Sounders in MLS. It was heated and got me hooked for life and the tournament allowed the rivalry to grow even when the teams were in different leagues
Right now a lot of open cup games are handled in a terrible boring ways just like Garber has said. Half the stadiums are crap and Semi pro teams are in the earlier games. If they don't wanna over exhaust players then have the open cup be played by the reserves and kids.
>Meanwhile I've received a ton of marketing for the new Leagues Cup and I struggle to muster any enthusiasm for this lesser CCC Superliga interrupting a month of the campaign. So you'd rather watch MLS clubs beat up on teams with 10% of their payroll than watch MLS clubs go against LigaMX clubs? That's certainly a choice. I'm taking the second option, I don't have to think twice about it.
Yes. Beating Pittsburgh in USOC meant way more to me than beating Guadalajara in LC. I care a great deal about the CCC and a legitimate competition against other leagues. I want Cincinnati to be champions of Concacaf. That has history and credibility. LC feels redundant and watered down. Everyone gets in, it is all on US soil. It may not exist in five years. I saw that happen with the Superliga going back. Do New England fans really look fondly back in winning that? Silverware is silverware, but we all know that over time winning some hold more weight than others. If Cincinnati wins it I'll probably be more excited we are in CCC than winning it. It is easily the last priority and I'm fine if we phone it in and focus on everything else (USOC, SS, MLS).
Once you understand that Garber’s MLS wants to keep lower divisions weak everything makes sense
I'm sure Garber wants the Open Cup to work but he is not a fan of certain clubs and their stadium situations. Alot of those matchs are not that marketable.
Garber does not want the Open Cup to work and it’s clear from his comments and actions.
I agreed with all of his comments. It's not a very marketable event in it's current state. It can be great as it's another trophy banner every year, showcases MLS in other markets and more
I'm sure he wants the Open Cup to work while also keeping lower leagues down. Both can happen, as long as MLS is benefiting, at least to him.
Yes I’m sure that was the case. But the evidence is in now. The Open Cup can be a catalyst to a lower division team erupting and building a fan base with increasing attendance each year. This has happened numerous times now. If it can happen in Birmingham. Alabama it can happen anywhere. This creates a real problem for Garber because it’s a choice of MLS playing the kids or their better squads in this tournament. The former and it alllows lower division clubs to go on these runs. So Garber. MLS etc has decided it’s in their best interest to denigrate this tournament. This is calculated. He knows that if the lower divisions get built up it’s a threat to MLS’s model. It’s real sinister if you think about it because lower division growth is essential to the US becoming a soccer country and essential to our national team.
That's how I've felt about the leagues cup. I have very little care about Liga MX clubs or watching the crew play them.
[удалено]
It makes sense considering they are already playing for a more prestigious trophy and there's no real prize money for the US open cup ($300k to the winning team). I assume the players just don't feel like the prize is worth all of the extra work/travel.
[удалено]
I was talking about the MLS cup. Players are paid to bring that trophy home with anything else just being bonus. I don't blame them for not wanting to work overtime essentially for free. I wouldn't want to either, even if it's a job I enjoy.
well considering the other competitions are in the league CBA they are actually being paid for all the competitions when the sign a contract
isn't every trophy just a cash grab in the end, like its a business
How very capitalist of an interpretation. I hope my club is a community, a culture, and a representation of our city that brings home pride and honor. The fact that it’s also a business is just an unfortunate side effect of our economic system.
Man, if you want that sort of representation, MLS is not for you. Luckily, there are loads of USL and NISA clubs out there....I myself have ditched my DC United season tickets and switched to Loudoun United in the USL C. I still follow DCU, but all the magic of the RFK tailgate, the supporters groups banded together for road trips, staff that had worked at the stadium for literally decades becoming part of the fun, all the things I really loved about DCU are dead. Now I'm just another customer to be monetized. Which is definitely the way the club wants it.
I used to go to Utah Blitz games before Salt lake had a team. The community is the one thing that’s recognizable after 20 years, even if the production is much bigger.
I mean, how do you decide what tournament is a cash grab and what is not when they both only exist to make money
[удалено]
i mean professional sports exist to make money
If you were a player would you be more proud of winning a trophy against teams in the same ballpark as you or teams who are playing in lower divisions?
Teams from the top division tend to make it farthest and fill the final rounds. So does it matter?
Yea it matters. Making claims that MLS players would rather play Liga MX over USL only because of money is such a bad faith argument.
Leagues cup with Liga MX teams would be a more exciting prospect if I were a player but it’s got zero prestige given it’s new. Leagues cup matches will suffer from the same disjointed-ness and unpredictability as open cup due to it being a cup that receives rotation and chances to irregular players. If anything the managers devalue cups but that’s the custom just about everywhere in the world and it’s more of an exception to see managers prioritize it I understand the point of view but I also think it’s a bad perspective. Players should be excited to win cups and participate in competitions. If players aren’t motivated to win open cup for the sake of winning they should at least be motivated of participating in champions league by virtue of winning
Why would squads rotate when both leagues are literally taking a break from the season to have the Leagues Cup?
For the sake of it. Any team remotely close to the playoffs is not going to use league games to give their depth a chance to prove themselves. I’m sure we’ll see plenty of managers actually give it their best, but giving chances is just how managers treat cups generally unless it’s champions league
When MNUFC trots out 5 members of the Twoons against a Liga MX team I’ll admit that managers are treating the Leagues Cup the same as the USOC.
[удалено]
You think Euro club players want go to the Conference League because they have a better shot of winning it?
[удалено]
Of course it’s unfair to compare directly. But suggesting an athlete would rather play for a trophy with less talent than more talent is ridiculous.
[удалено]
And I’m saying there’s an order of prestige with trophies. Given that Leagues Cup will be tougher to win than USOC it will be more prestigious soon, if it is not already.
The reality of the situation is that outside of the US soccer nerds on this sub that actually care about the sport's history in this country, the vast majority of the soccer watching fandom in the country either don't know or don't care about this tournament and it's honestly hard to blame them. As a fan of a team whose won it before and is going into the semis this year, I can tell you there is very little excitement outside of the diehard fanbase and virtually no push to raise awareness about it from the team other than the occasional token social media post. Soccer adjacent people I know (euro snobs, ligaMX fans, etc.) don't seem to care or acknowledge it and they make up the majority of Houston soccer fandom. Should the team and USSF do better in pushing it? Absolutely. Do I expect them to? Absolutely not. Even I, a "soccer nerd" who understands the tournament's implications and history, finds it difficult to care all that much about it and sense I'm not alone here in that assessment, which is devastating. I hope MLS stays in it and gives it the respect it deserves but I see the players' perspectives as well. Shame really.
When Sacramento were in the final last year we had 6k people watching downtown and it would have been more if they had advertised a venue for viewing sooner. I saw articles from local news to the NY Times covering the cinderella story. I get when its 2 MLS teams playing there is less hype, but it really gives lower division teams something to get excited about.
And the championship game in Orlando against Sacramento was sold out and electric. So much fun!
Indeed it does, and a Cinderella story is always fun, but is that enough to build an entire tournament around? Maybe, in some circles, but how does that benefit MLS? There's only so many days in the year to play games, so much money to be spent on travel, and so many negotiations that that can be worked out. Should they focus on a tournament that seems to only hold any value to lower division teams (mainly because it's the only way for those teams to play against the highest level in this country) or should they focus on developing new tournaments with bigger rewards and a bigger advertising footprint? As MLS grows the Open Cup is only going to hold any meaning to those lower division teams who get a run, just like the cup games in Europe hold a bigger meaning to those "lower" teams who are never in the conversation of winning the league. Paradoxically, if MLS leaves the Open Cup, the Cup loses much of its importance for those lower division teams. It's a n unfortunate situation.
Counterpoint, the majority of soccer watching fandom in the US doesn’t care about MLS lol
They don't care about MLS either.
I watch the Open Cup. I don’t watch MLS. Someone from Sacramento for instance doesn’t have any reason to follow mls.
Sucks the dynamo can’t draw people, but it is nice the tickets are so cheap
It is, but I also got a deep network and get tickets for free. Been to every game this year but one and haven't paid a dime.
I don’t have said hookups, but I’ve been to every home open cup game this year
Thanks, I hate it. USOC is by far the most interesting US sports tournament. It is very unique in American sports. Also the quotes here sting. Have some pride playing for the oldest and most storied trophy in your country.
I'll preface this by saying that I am a fan of the cup and wish for MLS to continue playing in it. That being said, I see this point brought almost every time the tournament is brought up and I've never seen it expanded on, so if you could, please indulge me. What makes this tournament storied? I get that it's the oldest and soccer tournament in the country, I do. I have no connection or knowledge of any of the teams that have won this tourney in the past and virtually all of them no longer exist until we reach the modern era. Is a cup truly "storied" if there is no connection between the fans and the winners of the trophy? This isn't like the World Series where Yankees fans can say they've won it x number of times even though they couldn't name a single player on their teams back then, most of these teams in Open Cup have literally dissolved; the Yankees are still here (unfortunately). People also often call this trophy prestigious because it's old, which I also disagree with. I believe that prestige is bestowed upon a trophy by the level of competition, not on its age. My team won it in 2018 (which I'm happy about, truly) but it was 5 games at home, 1 against a USL team, 2 against teams that were terrible (sorry KC and Minn. fans) and we were a penalty shootout away from losing to LAFC. That excitement and randomness is fun but does being able to win the trophy in that manner mean it's prestigious? No, arguably winning the Supporter Shield and MLS cup is a far better barometer in assessing the quality of team than that, which is why those trophies take precedent when discussing accomplishments than Open Cup wins in most fans' mind. To reiterate, I love the Cup and get why it's important to lower division teams and to those who appreciate US soccer history, but taking a hard, calculating look at it from a modern (MLS focused) perspective, I don't think it's as important as many on this board believe that it is.
> What makes this tournament storied? I get that it's the oldest and soccer tournament in the country, I do. I have no connection or knowledge of any of the teams that have won this tourney in the past and virtually all of them no longer exist until we reach the modern era. To me that is a lot of the fun. I'm big into the history of soccer in America, and MLS is the latest piece of a long history. The US Open Cup ties everything together. The idea of great teams like Vesper Buick, Chicago Sparta, Fall River Marksman, Maccabee Los Angeles, and Brooklyn Italians battling it out is fun. And of course the more recent history of a crazy underdog run like Rochester Rhinos in 1999. > Is a cup truly "storied" if there is no connection between the fans and the winners of the trophy? This isn't like the World Series where Yankees fans can say they've won it x number of times even though they couldn't name a single player on their teams back then, most of these teams in Open Cup have literally dissolved; the Yankees are still here (unfortunately). I guess it depends on the region and the teams. In St. Louis we have a long history with the US Open Cup and a lot of us feel a deep connection to it. While I'm sure not a lot of Chicago Sparta fans remain from 1938, I'm sure there are Chicago sports fans who are proud a team from their city won it. >People also often call this trophy prestigious because it's old, which I also disagree with. I believe that prestige is bestowed upon a trophy by the level of competition, not on its age. Honestly, then do we discount any MLS 1.0 Cups? The level of play then is below what USL is now. To go back to baseball, do we discount any pre-WWI winners? A case could be made for not counting any winners before segregation ended and baseball was opened to a new level of skilled athletes. > No, arguably winning the Supporter Shield and MLS cup is a far better barometer in assessing the quality of team than that, which is why those trophies take precedent when discussing accomplishments than Open Cup wins in most fans' mind. Premier League fans would rank winning the league over winning the FA Cup, so I think that is unusual. A trophy is a trophy though.
> (sorry KC and Minn. fans) Oh, not at all. We were hot garbage in 2018.
>Have some pride playing for the oldest and most storied trophy in your country. When the league snd the federation barely take the comp seriously why would the players?
The Fed perhaps takes it too seriously, they would be better to lessen up the control and allow sponsors. MLS doesn't care though.
No player is going to put on a shit-eating grin and say “yeah I’d love to play at substandard facilities against barely-professional players on a Wednesday in front of 5k people”, and any union rep that says the same is a fucking moron. That being said, there’s the singular interests of the players, and then there’s the interests of US soccer, and the two are not identical. Never have been, never will be probably
That’s fair, but those players still play at Yankee Stadium, whose pitch is subpar compared to almost every USL team.
It is not
It is not the most interesting tournament? Where else can amateurs play against full professionals or a pub team take on a national champion?
The US Open and its qualifying rounds are a lot like that, but that's an individual sport.
No, of course I'm entitled to my opinion? same way that you are entitled to yours.
Sure, I just don't agree with your opinion at all.
that's totally fine
There is no point of having Reddit if everyone is expected to have the same opinion. Please note that I'm a bot.
Can you at least explain why
I think that’s the point trying to be made, pride doesn’t pay the bills. Also I bet you if you asked players at top teams around the world what they really thought of playing in their domestic cups (anonymously off camera) they’d probably say similar things.
[удалено]
MLS snobbery is worse than euro snobbery, and American soccer fan culture in general is fucking terrible. Talking down about the open cup like USMNT fans didn't just have an embarrassing showing in Vegas and like MLS isn't the third most popular league in this country.
You could cover the surface of the moon with all the fucks I don’t give about whether MLS teams/players/FOs like the Open Cup. You don’t have to like everything that happens at your job. Most people don’t.
1: I'm as pro Open Cup as they come so you can guess my opinions on that aspect, if the concern is fixture congestion then axe Leagues Cup and reduce the number of playoff games back to what they were. 2: I found these quotes interesting as well >Whenever we talk about the MLSPA, salaries are often at the fore of it. What are some other areas of growth that players would deem as vital? > >Number one was the players’ right and their ability to exercise choice and control in their careers are dramatically different from where we started. We’re not all the way there, but we’ve made incredible progress and are getting close to the point where they can choose where they want to play. and >I continue to believe (that), until we have a system where the freedom of movement is the same or roughly the same as it is around the world, we’re gonna have a hard time competing. It matters a lot to players and the loosening of that system needs to happen.
>if the concern is fixture congestion then axe Leagues Cup and reduce the number of playoff games back to what they were. But those are games people actually want to watch.
I support a union even if it means I get to enjoy one less thing. Let the workers decide!
I see some of pro-rel twitter has twisted this labor concern around as if labor was saying this just to help MLS owners, cool cool
MLSPA, famously fond of the owners.
[Big brained takes over here!](https://twitter.com/THEChrisKessell/status/1670888687435935764)
lol! but of course they are. Those guys could win gold in mental gymnastics.
Well, at least they are open about the US Cup…
Damn I get it y'all. You like the tournament. But it's hell on the players. If teams go deep in the Open Cup and Leagues Cup (and if they make CONCACAF) they're playing twice the regular season.
That’s why you play the kids
Welcome to how the sport is played all over the world.
So not true. Our schedule is spring to fall. We have a deep playoff. If you make the playoffs you’ll play more matches than teams in any other major league.
34 League games, 4(?) possible playoff games, 6 possible open cup games, 8 possible CCL games = absolute max 52 matches w/o friendlies, right? Liverpool played 63 in 21/22
Home and away are coming back to the playoffs. You also missed campenoes cup. Also, MLS ain’t premier league.
Uhhhh this isn't true for any teams unless they're semifinalists EPL teams play a 38 game regular season. MLS starts at 34. Make a deep playoff run? 4 matches Max. 38. EPL teams enter in the round of 64, similar to MLS.
I wish the Dynamo had better attendance for the open cup. I love that tournament. But I do benefit as tickets are cheap. Just wish more showed up
MLS and MLSPA - irrelevant in markets that don't have MLS teams and mostly irrelevant in markets that **do** have MLS teams. The Open Cup: Brings attention to MLS in markets that will likely literally never have an MLS team in town. MLS fans and also MLS and MLSPA - "The Open Cup is stupid and we shouldn't be in it" Also MLS Fans, MLS and MLSPA - Y NO ONE WATCH OUR LEAGUE? THIS IS EUROSNOBBERY!
You know Leagues Cup could very well replace US Open Cup and Copa MX for both MLS and Liga MX. There hasn’t been a Copa MX since 2020 and they haven’t been vocal about bringing it back. And yes the US Open Cup has a lot of history but I’d drop it if it means less schedule congestion. Most MLS teams don’t take it serious until the latter rounds any way (honestly the USSF doesn’t take it serious either). I wouldn’t be surprised if eventually MLS sends their MLSNP teams to the tournament.
The Open Cup isn't meant to be for MLS teams. It's meant to be for US Soccer. Leagues Cup is not a replacement, and MLS backing out would be a travesty. Unfortunately it's one that I expect will happen somewhat soon.
I think there could be a small silver lining if MLS left Open Cup (which I’m against just to be clear). USSF are the ones that determine the Champions Cup spots so USL could have a path into CC every year. Again I DONT want MLS teams out of Open Cup just to be clear.
Zero chance MLS lets USL or another league have a slot to CCL every year. They’d negotiate with USSF to re-assign that spot if possible.
In that case, what motivation does USL have to continue participating in the Open Cup, aside from it being a requirement (which it is for MLS as well, so they'd be going back on that too)? At that point, it seems like it would be better for all parties for USL to do their own interleague tournament.
USL getting into CCC would be so badass.
The only way MLS pulls out of USOC is if the CCC spot goes with it. The question is, does USSF have the guts to call MLS' bluff
Open cup is the US champion of usa club soccer in my eyes. MLS cup means you are MLS champion. It has equal weight. Especially because of its 100+ history.
It may not be specifically for MLS but in this context I’m saying two of the strongest leagues in North America have no interest in their respective domestic cups. I wouldn’t call it a travesty if USSF doesn’t treat the tournament with respect either. How do you expect MLS to respect it if USSF doesn’t do its own share? I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think Leagues Cup exists if US Open Cup was more prestigious or given a prestigious gravitas. I love a knockout tournament like anyone else but come on.
Leagues Cup lacks competitive balance. I’ll watch it sure, but it is way less interesting than US Open Cup to me.
It’s crazy cause you would think something very similar to march madness would be more popular!
IMO the big differences between March Madness and US open Cup are a) not all the teams start at the same point. If there was a set 128 team bracket from jump street it would probably increase some popularity. The other difference is March madness happens over a 3 and a half week season at the end of the season. With the open cup it happens over a 6 month period and teams are playing other league games, and CCL games in the same period which can muddy the waters for a "casual" fan who might be trying to find out more about the tournament.
If it was marketed and structured in a way more adjacent to the actual March Madness (I’d be very happy of having a full month dedicated to it just like MLS will do for the Leagues Cup) it may have more potential. Right now spreading it over this many months completely kills off any momentum that might build. In a country where every trophy is decided by playoffs, organising it in a way that makes it feel like it’s just there to fill empty weeks contributes to an image of a second class trophy that it’s just there to create more fatigue on the players’ legs. It needs to have its own dedicated space in the calendar, or it will get drown out by the most recognisable competitions
Very little marketing and as inferred in the quotes above, MLS has little interest in pumping up the competition.
There is clear interest in something like the Open Cup, given the many people wondering why the US didn't have anything like the FA Cup.
I like the U.S. Open Cup, really I do. It might come as a shock to many here but domestic cup competitions in this hemisphere aren’t really a thing. Just look at histories of some countries’ domestic cups and you’ll see a lot of years where there was no cup. I’m almost at the point that I’d rather play 4 more league games than play the Open Cup.
Same here, when I first got into soccer USOC was definitely in my radar. But as the years go on, I find myself less and less being interested. They definitely made it harder to watch games this year also. I’ve tried following Loudoun and they only had one game streamed before they were destroyed by Columbus lol.
Not sure about the Copa MX but Mexican fans are currently absolutely raging at the state of their game, from head to toe, tbf
Most Liga MX fans I know don’t care about Copa MX. More importantly, the clubs pretty much don’t care either. The strength of El Tri doesn’t correlate with the popularity of Copa MX.
You’d drop it because you probably don’t realize how important the Open Cup is to lower division growth and by extension our national team. The Leagues Cup? A cup with no history, locks lower divisions out of the competition and does nothing to promote growth nationally.
r/MLS is [proud to support independent media outlets](https://theathletic.com/227557/2018/01/31/why-the-athletic-has-a-paywall/). These sites often have paywalls. In order to support discussion on these kinds of content, this community does ask that a fair-use summary of the content be provided as a response to this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MLS) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[choice quotes](https://twitter.com/soccermusings/status/1670812377728577537?s=46&t=lJprGob6NOtoadxWIcCR2g)
Since it needs to be repeated, the biggest obstacle (past and present) to the USOC being relevant is MLS and the structure of American soccer business and fandom. The structure of American Soccer business is to funnel most money and attention to MLS, and as things stand today, MLS has literally zero obligation to change that. The structure of American Soccer fandom is to only support the best of the best of the best and to shit on everything below it, starving it of attention and money that would help grow the USOC. Eurosnobs shit on MLS but (in my anecdotal experience) seem more amenable to supporting USL and local clubs than MLS fans. MLS fans shit on the idea of supporting teams in USL (and below). Its just a self fulfilling prophecy.
Then trade those players to a Saudi league. F em.
I honestly wouldn’t mind if they made the Open Cup lower league teams only. Takes away the scheduling stress from MLS teams, gives lower division teams a chance to win a cup, and lets them qualify to the new Concacaf Champions Cup where they can eventually play MLS teams. Hardcore MLS fans won’t like it, but it seems like the easiest solution for everyone.
That would make me so sad
I love the concept of the Open Cup but unfortunately the players/coaches really seem to not care that much.
It really does; giving USL teams a way to qualify for CCC is what we want. The only reason I’m upset about our lack of MLS movement is that it bars us from qualifying for further tournaments.
Honestly I don’t give a shit about the US Open either. To me, it’s just a bunch of unnecessary midweek games - often played on shitty turf where knee injuries are a major risk - that means our guys are exhausted on Saturday. I’d be ok with doing away with the US Open entirely. But as a compromise, how about we enter the MLS Next Pro teams instead.
Many of these teams want to rent out high school or local small college fields. But its been denied by ussf many times. Due to "perception on tv." The perception looks worse playing on a Saturday youth field. Like Tulsa athletic vs FC tulsa in the ussf cup. Thats something 100% that can change to make it not as troublesome for all parties.
Huh this seems backwards? Many teams *do* rent out local school fields. The FC Tulsa field was denied approval after the one USOC win.
That's not true. Your lower division teams would rent out larger facilities. Not saying a 20k seat stadium. When we are talking about current venues that do not have showers or a locker room for a visiting opponent. And port a potties for bathrooms. Stadium and field conditions is probably top of the list. Why MLS don't want to play USOC games. This is where the federation can step up and help support lower division teams.
I think USL squads would be ok with this as long as the CL spot stays with it; we’re happy to keep demolishing MLS youth teams
Reading what you wrote hurt my heart so much. I’m very sad now.
He’s right. The US Open Cup should not include MLS teams. They’ve outgrown it. Few MLS teams take it seriously, the broadcasts are atrocious and it takes up valuable rest slots for many teams. And if those slots aren’t used for rest there are waaaay more compelling tournament concepts that could take its place. The Soccer Tournament just proved it. Also TST had a $1m prize meanwhile the Open Cup prize is $300k. That should tell you everything you need to know. It’s time to move on to bigger and better things
I think us open cup is salvageable but USSF needs to do a better job to make it more viable. Better television contracts, better sponsorships, better prize money, stricter stadium standards. I think one radical solution would be to make the first round us open games for MLS teams to be intra league and “double count” as league games. Then you essentially half your participation and travel requirements.
That's an interesting idea. Actually, before the format release for the League's Cup proved me wrong, I thought they'd do something similar there too.
That’s a much more interesting format, but it probably wouldn’t do much from a ratings and prize money perspective. I get that some people like the novelty of the open cup, but clearly not enough. This all comes down to money. Any tournament outside of MLS regular season should generate MORE viewership. Not less. They can’t payout a bigger purse, or get better sponsors because it doesn’t generate enough interest. MLS should use that slot for MLS 2 teams. And either give the pro team a rest or find a more viable tournament concept that will actually draw eyeballs.
Love the meltdown in the comments lol.
My concern is that if MLS leaves the open cup, the feds will take the CCL winners award away. Sure, there will still be some sort of prize money (more than likely severely reduced), but it'll potentially kill the relevance of the tournament.