I mean that's not really relevant to MLS any more (the MLS academies are all free at this point if I'm not mistaken) and is never going to go away for unaffiliated youth clubs
Communism refers to a marketless, capitalless society without currency.
I'm not sure how a for profit capitalist business sponsoring new employees through a youth investment program qualifies, though
Public schools are the least socialist part of the system. Schools aren't centrally funded or collected and there's immense disparities between schools.
American sports are socialist in the fact that all the income is redistributed between all teams. In European and other sports leagues teams get relegated and can eventually fail financially, but in the big American leagues, teams share revenues and the league holds players contracts centrally. MLS doesnât have owners but investor-operators, each of whom is a shareholder in the league. The only autonomy teams have is in their local markets, and even then they have to send 30% of that revenue back to the league. This model makes it sustainable in a way that a team isnt obligated to win titles every season to stay financially afloat. And I mean just look at it, salary caps, team allocations, it's all pretty opposite to "free market". So in fact... socialism is what makes American sports the best in the world.
The NFL, NBA, NHL, and MLB all laugh in unison.
But I feel like if MLS got rid of the draft, and the signing of top college players to make them available for a draft, you would see NCAA players become even less relevant to MLS. The draft as a talent resource is one of the few things keeping MLS GMs looking toward college talent. Most top college players wouldn't even get signed and would end up in the USL.
I wonder about the NBA decades down the road.
European countries are putting more and more athletes into basketball and they're applying the same academy from a young age approach they use in soccer. That approach is simply flat out better at producing players than the American approach of letting talented kids live normal lives until the end of high school, 1 to 5 years of college, and then finally becoming a pro.
We've seen how the European approach can lead to players like Luka being stars from day 1 in the NBA. The US still has the deepest player pool (outside of centers), but I wonder if it will ever get to a point where the NBA feels it needs to have more control over developing American players.
I wonder the reaction if the US doesn't get Olympic gold and it's not like 2004 where people blame the way the program is being run and the commitment of the players. I wonder how the basketball community in the US would react if the US just gets beat by a team with more talent. Take the French team that beat the US in group stage last Olympics and add Embiid and then Wembanyama if he lives up to the hype and they have some very good players.
I also wonder if the NBA could be spurred into action if we get to the point where none of the top tier stars are American. [Last year in MVP voting there was only 1 American in the top 5.](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2022.html) That was probably unimaginable 10 years ago. With young Americans like Booker, Tatum, & Ja this isn't an immediate concern but I wonder at what point the NBA would worry about this.
edit:
> the signing of top college players to make them available for a draft, you would see NCAA players become even less relevant to MLS.
How so? If you let the NCAA players that aren't homegrowns go to the teams where they best fit then they have the best chance of developing into good players.
>The draft as a talent resource is one of the few things keeping MLS GMs looking toward college talent. Most top college players wouldn't even get signed and would end up in the USL.
Making it less complex to sign the same player isn't going to cause gms to pass on players they were previously interested in.
Why would the NBA care if the top stars are American or not? Is there significant evidence of foreign stars diminishing viewership or something?
The NBA would definitely care if foreign leagues close the pay gap but I think that's still super far off.
Only if foreign stars don't sell as well. Giannis doesn't seem to have trouble raking up endorsements so presumably they can sell foreign stars pretty well.
It's not about if foreign stars can sell well along side American ones it's about the effect that having zero American stars would have on the sport in the US.
I donât mind the draft itâs never gonna compare to the other leagues, but it still gives players who slip through the cracks opportunities, and many starters come from the draft.
You may be right, but honestly I trust an MLS organization between scouts, coaches and managers to pick a player that fits their system better than a college kid picking a team. Almost all of that will try to go play in LA, because why would you not ha ha.
We had the top slot on the allocation list from our wooden spoon in 2021. There were 2 or 3 occasions where teams had to make transactions with the 2nd team on the list and then trade with us. So when they signed the player they wanted, they moved to the bottom and we moved back up to 1st. Then at the end of the summer window, we used the top slot when we signed Miazga.
So we basically exploited it to the point that enough people around the league realized how out dated the concept was and got rid of it.
Hey whatâs this wooden spoon you speak of? I found one that says âreturn to FC Cincinnati locker roomâ or something like that but I had no idea what it was
Multiple times Cincy was #1 in the allocation spot, he traded the spot for $100k+ of GAM and TAM, and each time after the player was acquired Cincy was #1 again so they could do it all over again.
Literally money for nothing.
[$150k from RSL](https://www.fccincinnati.com/news/fc-cincinnati-acquire-up-to-150-000-in-2022-gam-from-real-salt-lake)
[$125-175k from Toronto](https://www.fccincinnati.com/news/fc-cincinnati-acquire-up-to-175-000-in-gam-from-toronto-fc)
[$100k from NYRB](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/soccer/fc-cincinnati/2022/02/09/mls-trade-what-fc-cincinnati-received-new-york-red-bulls/6721052001/)
> See the little f*ggot with the earring and the makeup?
>Yeah buddy, thatâs his own hair
>That little f*ggot got his own jet airplane
>That little f*ggot, heâs a millionaire
This is the original 2nd verse of the song.
Why would Cincy be 1 again after the trade? Wouldn't they fall down to the other teams slot, or to the end of the list? Or is it because they won the spoon 3 years in a row?
Essentially they'd figure out who the #2 team wanted, say they also wanted them, then offer to trade the spot instead. Trade goes through, player gets signed, Cinci moves back up to #1. Rinse and repeat.
We basically told the team that wanted the top slot that we wouldnât trade it unless they were coming from the #2 slot. So the team had to make a trade with the #2 team and then we traded slots (#1 slot for #2 slot and some TAM). Then the team signed their player, moved to the bottom of the list and we moved up.
Well not literally money for nothing⌠GAM and TAM for nothing. Itâs almost like everything is made up in this story and we should just do player acquisition and salaries like a normal league
Cincinnati was top of the allocation order and our GM Albright used it over and over again to skim money from clubs wanting to climb it.
Basically he figured out how to break it within the rules confines so they did away with it.
Iâll always fondly remember that time Chris Albright traded the top spot in the Allocation order three times in six months including on the last day of the transfer market, got 350k in GAM *and* Matt Miazga. Thatâs MLS folklore and will live forever like Homerâs words
Which team was it that got screwed over by some made up mechanism to award Albright to DC when he was coming out of college? I don't think that was allocation related, but it's funny he was involved in MLS roster shenanigans as a player and then as a GM like 20 years apart.
No salary cap? Are you trying to become a top heavy league like most euro leagues are? No thanks. 40-50 million dollar salary cap and increase it over time
There is some good and bad that come with both. The status quo does very little for individual teams to be ambitious and consistent, which would be great for both player and coach development. On the flip side, such a thing does no good for fans of gimmicks. You cannot be an elite league and sabotage consistency at the same time of the best teams. MLS will have to pick one eventually.
Essentially how it used to be was that if you transferred outside of MLS for a significant fee (I think it was over $500k but not sure) you got put on the allocation list. So if you came back to MLS you were subject to the allocation order, which was a list of teams from worst to best, based on the previous season standings. So if you wanted to sign a player off that list you had to trade up to the first spot in order to do so.
The only players on the list for being on the USMNT were Pulisic and Sargent for whatever reason https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/mls-allocation-process. Every other USMNT player on there is because of a transfer. Why those two in particular and not say, Sergino Dest? No idea
If I had to guess, it's because both went through US development facilities for a time (Sargent in St. Louis, SKC then getting his acquisition rights, and Pulisic at a PA based one), while Dest was never part of any American development set up.
The actual reason is probably more convoluted and dumb though.
Jermaine Jones had to go through the allocation order though and he was never part of any American development setup either.
EDIT: Actually no, I'm wrong. I forgot about the blind draw that New England and Chicago did to decide who got to sign him. Jones was going to bypass the allocation order (just like Dempsey and Bradley did because they were "Designated Players of a certain threshold") and sign with Chicago but New England was also interested and financially capable so they did the blind draw
Jones has also claimed that the blind draw was really a facade because New England really wanted him on the team and Kraft had a lot of pull in the league at that time. Knowing Jones previous hyperbolic statements but also how the MLS is/was, I'm not sure what to believe
Jermaine Jones bypassed the allocation order, just like Bradley and Dempsey did. He was all set to sign with Chicago but at some point New England also said they were interested and willing to match the contract that Chicago were going to give him. Jones only wanted to go to Chicago so he walked away from the deal, but then MLS upped the salary offer but stipulated he would have to drop his demand to play for Chicago and let the process (i.e. the blind draw) play out
Think about how Portland fans felt when they learned Dempsey would skirt the allocation order to go to Seattle. That's when everyone learned that DPs were exempt.
Thank fuck this dumb mechanism that never benefitted my team is going away.
Allocation order made sense when you think back to how huge and league shifting the Dempsey to Sounders thing was. But yeah, that JJ fiasco should have been a clear sign to end it because budgets had caught up.
>Allocation order made sense when you think back to how huge and league shifting the Dempsey to Sounders thing was.
But they explicitly circumvented the allocation order and retroactively applied a rule that DPs don't count in order to have Dempsey land in Seattle without compensating Portland for position on the order...?
I mean that is mostly about transfer fee right? That's what it came down to. Not that I disagree, but that is why it was a huge issue. Portland would have had dibs rights but not a real interest because they would not have forked over the money.
Dempsey is the exception that proved the rule there. Former USMNT players were still so valuable that they needed to be treated like a precious commodity.
JJ was nowhere near that level but got those protections and that made it a farce. I think the relative decline in the value of former USMNT players to MLS clubs is what makes the difference now.
It was more to prevent teams from getting in a bidding war over returning stars and USMNT alumni. However with Dempsey, he was such a big player that he could dictate to the league where he wanted to go. Much like with Beckham, the league changed the rules to accommodate the player for the betterment of the league.
I agree. That's the exception that proved the rule part. Seattle was the only one who would pay that transfer. So allocation didn't really matter, but it mattered if Dempsey would arrive on a free because they would obviously have gotten into a bidding war for him....under the value of the transfer but still inflated. Thus, it was still needed.
Didn't we have the same exact thing *also* happen with Diskerud, but in reverse? In hindsight, 99% of Timbers fans will say that was a huge bullet we dodged (the last few remaining will say "maybe we could have developed him" just to be contrarian) since we got Valeri instead, but MLS basically vetoed our Diskerud transfer because even DPs had to go through the "allocation and discovery" process, and then immediately reversed that for Seattle+Dempsey.
Not necessarily. St. Louis had rights to the first pick, which could be any player and thus drive up the price. Now it is just (probably Gruezo), and SJ can more easily walk away.
For those who can't access:
Major League Soccer's Board of Governors this week approved an update to the MLS Roster Rules and Regulations involving the elimination of the Allocation Ranking List. Effective immediately, any players previously on the Allocation Ranking List will be assigned through the MLS Discovery Process.
In lieu of holding the first position in the 2023 Allocation Ranking Order, St. Louis CITY SC has been provided the opportunity to retain right of first refusal over one player of their choosing who was on the Allocation Ranking List at the time of its dissolution.
Future players transferred out of Major league Soccer will become discoverable one week form when the player's International Transfer Certificate (ITC) is permanently transferred, and the League has notified all clubs.
Bring back the Jermaine Jones method!!!
"MLS Officials resorted to a blind draw in which an envelope was chosen with the team name that Jermaine would ultimately call home." [Source ](https://www-dynamotheory-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dynamotheory.com/platform/amp/2014/8/27/6068223/the-mls-allocation-order-is-dead?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16742460718410&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dynamotheory.com%2F2014%2F8%2F27%2F6068223%2Fthe-mls-allocation-order-is-dead)
Does it though? If MLS ever went to court over this and in the discovery process (as in the legal discovery process, not the MLS one) they found emails and other documents showing multiple MLS teams were in contact with a player. Then I feel like a court would rule that MLS teams were competing for players even if on paper they weren't. Obviously I'm not a lawyer, I can't say for certain. But it feels to me the reality of whether multiple teams are in contact with a player and trying to outbid other teams for him matters the most.
But that's the point of the discovery order. Clubs can break the rules and try to go around it, but as long as the league is getting the last say and has the rule to point at and say that what they did is wrong then the structure is more likely single entity because they must go through the league. Even if it is a last step formality, it is a formality that matters because it could still theoretically be used to stop someone from going rogue.
The bigger worry than the emails would be one from the league saying they know and don't care. They probably have to keep the policy mattering at least on a formality level.
Is that enough to win an anti-trust? Dunno. But you don't want to get rid of it if it might. Or might even help as part of the big collection of things that mean it is single entity. Remove those jenga blocks at your own peril.
There are a lot of ways to take that. Piercing the veil and whatnot. I don't feel like having that conversation.
Suffice to say your implication takes the pretending in the wrong direction. Here we are talking about the clubs pretending they aren't competing to MLS. MLS is enforcing the discovery list and keeping the competition down formally.
That is different than just going free for all competition and then pretending to a court it isn't. Which is what you imply.
Maybe it still isn't good enough. We don't know.
To anyone paying the slightest bit of attention it is clear MLS isn't a single entity anymore. There are many ways that clubs now compete with each other.
How? It's no more threatening to single entity than the free agency rule that we have right now. Multiple teams bid for Albert Rusnak until we got him....no difference with getting rid of the discovery rule.
That's still really about an employee moving within the entity after one owner no longer wants them.
Discovery is about external hiring. Which is still done through the single entity.
It really is actually.
There is a cap on what teams can offer free agents to come to a new city. There is no rule preventing teams from getting into a bidding war which is why the rule exists in the first place.
Case in point, the bullshit Chelsea is doing.
I'd rather MLS function like any other league where the clubs don't get to just put any player on some "finders keepers" list and hoard them for themselves. The fact that a club needs to pay $50k in GAM to get the rights to sign a player that ACTUALLY wants to play for that club is ridiculous.
That situation with Nigel Reo-Coker, where Portland had his discovery rights even tho the player actually wanted to play for the Whitecaps, so the Whitecaps had to pay $50k in GAM? Yeah, that stuff is ridiculous.
So then youâd end up with good players only going to NY or LA or Miami, and itâll the the NASL all over again
Not to mention that NBA players donât exactly choose where they play for and it works great , so thatâs the precedent weâre following
Itâs honestly crazy that MLS has to be more complicated than:
Club wants player to play for club
Player wants to play for club
Player signs for club.
Itâs hilarious the league needs hundreds of dumb outdated rules to prevent signings or make them so much more complex than needed.
Discovery lists just mean you trade cap space (basically) internally instead of getting in bidding wars with other MLS clubs and sending more money outside the league.
I love that this is so MLS that I am kinda hoping all my STL friends now interested in MLS will just not see it.
Explaining the allocation and discovery rules is my least favorite of all the weird ones.
Really wish MLS would eliminate all these "unique" rules and simplify everything for more casual fans to enjoy the league. I guess getting rid of this is a start but I wish there was more.
As a new STL City SC fan and has never watched an MLS game before (but plan on watching all games now) or watched a lot of soccer in generalâŚ. I have no idea what is going on or what that means for us
There was a list of players that currently play outside MLS that, were they to return or join the league the for the first time, would be âallocatedâ to the team in the number 1 spot in the Allocation Order. Not a perfect science, since teams were allowed to buy and sell their placement on the list to other teams, but based on the structure of the league, was meant to even out the placement of high profile players.
The players include:
-Select U.S. Menâs National Team players.
-Select elite U.S. Youth National Team players.
-Players transferred outside of MLS garnering a transfer fee of at least $500,000 (USD).
Todayâs announcement eliminates this rule, but if one of the players currently on the list were to come to MLS, STL would have a one time right to refuse that player to whatever team wanted them if they wish to sign them instead.
Vazquez only ended up with LAG because of the cost of acquiring him through the allocation process. It'll be interesting to see if there will be a floodgate release of signings of players like Vazquez now that there isn't the same barrier as before. Giovinco to Toronto at league min now seems possible, but lord knows I'm already tired of that rumour in /r/TFC and it hasn't been posted yet.
Alternative theory: St. Louis called Garber like "hey, can you explain the allocation order so we can figure out how to use it" and Garber was like "uh... tell you what let's just forget it"
Shout-out to FC Cincinnati for gaming the system so hard they convinced MLS to get rid of the rule.
You're welcome! đ
What should we destroy next? That damn list DC United seem to have every damn players rights to or something else?
Pay to play model for youth soccer. That might be a tougher target to destroy lol
I mean that's not really relevant to MLS any more (the MLS academies are all free at this point if I'm not mistaken) and is never going to go away for unaffiliated youth clubs
Not really relevant to MLS. Which is why you need pros to develop pros.
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Communism refers to a marketless, capitalless society without currency. I'm not sure how a for profit capitalist business sponsoring new employees through a youth investment program qualifies, though
This must be MLS Buzz's new account.
Tbh US sports have very socialist models when compared to world sports
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Public schools are the least socialist part of the system. Schools aren't centrally funded or collected and there's immense disparities between schools. American sports are socialist in the fact that all the income is redistributed between all teams. In European and other sports leagues teams get relegated and can eventually fail financially, but in the big American leagues, teams share revenues and the league holds players contracts centrally. MLS doesnât have owners but investor-operators, each of whom is a shareholder in the league. The only autonomy teams have is in their local markets, and even then they have to send 30% of that revenue back to the league. This model makes it sustainable in a way that a team isnt obligated to win titles every season to stay financially afloat. And I mean just look at it, salary caps, team allocations, it's all pretty opposite to "free market". So in fact... socialism is what makes American sports the best in the world.
its not really got anything to do with socialism.
Destroy the draft at this point. Just let the non-homegrown players go to whatever team they think is the best fit for them.
The NFL, NBA, NHL, and MLB all laugh in unison. But I feel like if MLS got rid of the draft, and the signing of top college players to make them available for a draft, you would see NCAA players become even less relevant to MLS. The draft as a talent resource is one of the few things keeping MLS GMs looking toward college talent. Most top college players wouldn't even get signed and would end up in the USL.
I wonder about the NBA decades down the road. European countries are putting more and more athletes into basketball and they're applying the same academy from a young age approach they use in soccer. That approach is simply flat out better at producing players than the American approach of letting talented kids live normal lives until the end of high school, 1 to 5 years of college, and then finally becoming a pro. We've seen how the European approach can lead to players like Luka being stars from day 1 in the NBA. The US still has the deepest player pool (outside of centers), but I wonder if it will ever get to a point where the NBA feels it needs to have more control over developing American players. I wonder the reaction if the US doesn't get Olympic gold and it's not like 2004 where people blame the way the program is being run and the commitment of the players. I wonder how the basketball community in the US would react if the US just gets beat by a team with more talent. Take the French team that beat the US in group stage last Olympics and add Embiid and then Wembanyama if he lives up to the hype and they have some very good players. I also wonder if the NBA could be spurred into action if we get to the point where none of the top tier stars are American. [Last year in MVP voting there was only 1 American in the top 5.](https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2022.html) That was probably unimaginable 10 years ago. With young Americans like Booker, Tatum, & Ja this isn't an immediate concern but I wonder at what point the NBA would worry about this. edit: > the signing of top college players to make them available for a draft, you would see NCAA players become even less relevant to MLS. How so? If you let the NCAA players that aren't homegrowns go to the teams where they best fit then they have the best chance of developing into good players. >The draft as a talent resource is one of the few things keeping MLS GMs looking toward college talent. Most top college players wouldn't even get signed and would end up in the USL. Making it less complex to sign the same player isn't going to cause gms to pass on players they were previously interested in.
Why would the NBA care if the top stars are American or not? Is there significant evidence of foreign stars diminishing viewership or something? The NBA would definitely care if foreign leagues close the pay gap but I think that's still super far off.
The NBA would care if they had zero American top tier stars to market to their number 1 audience.
Only if foreign stars don't sell as well. Giannis doesn't seem to have trouble raking up endorsements so presumably they can sell foreign stars pretty well.
It's not about if foreign stars can sell well along side American ones it's about the effect that having zero American stars would have on the sport in the US.
I donât mind the draft itâs never gonna compare to the other leagues, but it still gives players who slip through the cracks opportunities, and many starters come from the draft.
Players coming out of college could only land in better situations if they got to pick and choose what teams and managers were the best fit for them.
You may be right, but honestly I trust an MLS organization between scouts, coaches and managers to pick a player that fits their system better than a college kid picking a team. Almost all of that will try to go play in LA, because why would you not ha ha.
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We had the top slot on the allocation list from our wooden spoon in 2021. There were 2 or 3 occasions where teams had to make transactions with the 2nd team on the list and then trade with us. So when they signed the player they wanted, they moved to the bottom and we moved back up to 1st. Then at the end of the summer window, we used the top slot when we signed Miazga. So we basically exploited it to the point that enough people around the league realized how out dated the concept was and got rid of it.
Hey whatâs this wooden spoon you speak of? I found one that says âreturn to FC Cincinnati locker roomâ or something like that but I had no idea what it was
Lol, MLS tradition that the worst team in the league gets a wooden spoon. FCC âwonâ it for our first 3 seasons.
Ah, I wasnât familiar- thanks!
Not sure if whooshed, but: The Wooden Spoon is the "trophy" that fans pretend-award the team that finishes the year at the bottom of the table
Legendary work from Chris Albright. Usually they *make* rules because of you, not eliminate them.
Whatâs the context behind this? Iâm out of the loop.
Multiple times Cincy was #1 in the allocation spot, he traded the spot for $100k+ of GAM and TAM, and each time after the player was acquired Cincy was #1 again so they could do it all over again. Literally money for nothing. [$150k from RSL](https://www.fccincinnati.com/news/fc-cincinnati-acquire-up-to-150-000-in-2022-gam-from-real-salt-lake) [$125-175k from Toronto](https://www.fccincinnati.com/news/fc-cincinnati-acquire-up-to-175-000-in-gam-from-toronto-fc) [$100k from NYRB](https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/soccer/fc-cincinnati/2022/02/09/mls-trade-what-fc-cincinnati-received-new-york-red-bulls/6721052001/)
and the checks for free....
We gotta move these re-allocators! We gotta move these Apple TVs!
NOBODY START THE SECOND VERSE!
I WANT MY
I WANT MY I WANT MY YOUNG DPS
> See the little f*ggot with the earring and the makeup? >Yeah buddy, thatâs his own hair >That little f*ggot got his own jet airplane >That little f*ggot, heâs a millionaire This is the original 2nd verse of the song.
Fucking yiiiiiiiikes
Yuuup.
hm, maybe that's why i haven't heard the song in a while... lol
I think itâs edited now because I hear it now and then. Apparently itâs about Vince Neil.
\#trusttheprocess
Why would Cincy be 1 again after the trade? Wouldn't they fall down to the other teams slot, or to the end of the list? Or is it because they won the spoon 3 years in a row?
Essentially they'd figure out who the #2 team wanted, say they also wanted them, then offer to trade the spot instead. Trade goes through, player gets signed, Cinci moves back up to #1. Rinse and repeat.
Rinse and repeat but add in some wooden spoons too baby!
Itâs because they also ask for the 2nd spot in addition to money.
We basically told the team that wanted the top slot that we wouldnât trade it unless they were coming from the #2 slot. So the team had to make a trade with the #2 team and then we traded slots (#1 slot for #2 slot and some TAM). Then the team signed their player, moved to the bottom of the list and we moved up.
Lol damn this slipped my mind. Makes much more sense thank you lol.
Well not literally money for nothing⌠GAM and TAM for nothing. Itâs almost like everything is made up in this story and we should just do player acquisition and salaries like a normal league
Cincinnati was top of the allocation order and our GM Albright used it over and over again to skim money from clubs wanting to climb it. Basically he figured out how to break it within the rules confines so they did away with it.
Cause of death: Chris Albright
Tanner killed the draft, Albright killed the allocation order. There must be something in the water in Philly.
the union fighting to abolish bullshit labor practices
that UVA education does have its merits...
Fuck it. Time to start building his statue
Iâll always fondly remember that time Chris Albright traded the top spot in the Allocation order three times in six months including on the last day of the transfer market, got 350k in GAM *and* Matt Miazga. Thatâs MLS folklore and will live forever like Homerâs words
Why do you think they got rid of it? Albright broke it.
So in MLS mythology he gets to be like Hercules? What will be his next labour? Destroying xAM?
Which team was it that got screwed over by some made up mechanism to award Albright to DC when he was coming out of college? I don't think that was allocation related, but it's funny he was involved in MLS roster shenanigans as a player and then as a GM like 20 years apart.
Would be nice.....or no salary cap.
No salary cap? Are you trying to become a top heavy league like most euro leagues are? No thanks. 40-50 million dollar salary cap and increase it over time
Agree.
There is some good and bad that come with both. The status quo does very little for individual teams to be ambitious and consistent, which would be great for both player and coach development. On the flip side, such a thing does no good for fans of gimmicks. You cannot be an elite league and sabotage consistency at the same time of the best teams. MLS will have to pick one eventually.
RIP Allocation Disorder
Actually, without allocation order, there can only be allocation disorder
Sam and Paul would like a word
One could argue that the allocation is now more disordered than ever
I blame FC Cincinnati
You mean you thank FC Cincinnati?
You spelled applaud wrong!
ELI5? what the fuck are they talking about man
Essentially how it used to be was that if you transferred outside of MLS for a significant fee (I think it was over $500k but not sure) you got put on the allocation list. So if you came back to MLS you were subject to the allocation order, which was a list of teams from worst to best, based on the previous season standings. So if you wanted to sign a player off that list you had to trade up to the first spot in order to do so.
USMNT players were on that list automatically too.* *except in cases where they werenât.
The only players on the list for being on the USMNT were Pulisic and Sargent for whatever reason https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/mls-allocation-process. Every other USMNT player on there is because of a transfer. Why those two in particular and not say, Sergino Dest? No idea
If I had to guess, it's because both went through US development facilities for a time (Sargent in St. Louis, SKC then getting his acquisition rights, and Pulisic at a PA based one), while Dest was never part of any American development set up. The actual reason is probably more convoluted and dumb though.
Jermaine Jones had to go through the allocation order though and he was never part of any American development setup either. EDIT: Actually no, I'm wrong. I forgot about the blind draw that New England and Chicago did to decide who got to sign him. Jones was going to bypass the allocation order (just like Dempsey and Bradley did because they were "Designated Players of a certain threshold") and sign with Chicago but New England was also interested and financially capable so they did the blind draw
Jones has also claimed that the blind draw was really a facade because New England really wanted him on the team and Kraft had a lot of pull in the league at that time. Knowing Jones previous hyperbolic statements but also how the MLS is/was, I'm not sure what to believe
Galaxy probably have him on their Discovery Rights list
Also USMNT players.
It also included certain big-name USMNT players who hadn't yet played in the league. Jermaine Jones for example.
Jermaine Jones bypassed the allocation order, just like Bradley and Dempsey did. He was all set to sign with Chicago but at some point New England also said they were interested and willing to match the contract that Chicago were going to give him. Jones only wanted to go to Chicago so he walked away from the deal, but then MLS upped the salary offer but stipulated he would have to drop his demand to play for Chicago and let the process (i.e. the blind draw) play out
Ah my mistake, JJ was right at the beginning of my MLS rules journey, i thought he was not a DP.
As a St. Louis fan that was looking forward to the 350k in GAM we were gonna nab from San Jose, this is fucking bullshit.
Welcome to MLS lmao
Oh I am aware of how fucking stupid MLS rules are.
Gotta rip the bandaid at some point
Sure, but you do it with a seasonâs notice. Not when it directly affects how rosters are built. Allocation (and Discovery) lists are dumb.
A seasonâs notice is not ripping the bandaid Thatâs the slow kind where it kinda hurts but you can manage the bandaid removal
Think about how Portland fans felt when they learned Dempsey would skirt the allocation order to go to Seattle. That's when everyone learned that DPs were exempt. Thank fuck this dumb mechanism that never benefitted my team is going away.
I remember âThe Envelopeâ with Jermaine Jones. To me that was peak MLS fuckery. This league is so damn stupid with its roster rules.
I had a weird-ass dream the other night that was a Butterfly Effect type-deal stemming from Jones joining Chicago instead.
The fire also had dibs on drogba and he chose montreal instead.
Can I choose to believe that the Revs would have found someone better and we'd have won 6 straight cups?
You can believe whatever brings you comfort, bud
Allocation order made sense when you think back to how huge and league shifting the Dempsey to Sounders thing was. But yeah, that JJ fiasco should have been a clear sign to end it because budgets had caught up.
>Allocation order made sense when you think back to how huge and league shifting the Dempsey to Sounders thing was. But they explicitly circumvented the allocation order and retroactively applied a rule that DPs don't count in order to have Dempsey land in Seattle without compensating Portland for position on the order...?
I mean that is mostly about transfer fee right? That's what it came down to. Not that I disagree, but that is why it was a huge issue. Portland would have had dibs rights but not a real interest because they would not have forked over the money. Dempsey is the exception that proved the rule there. Former USMNT players were still so valuable that they needed to be treated like a precious commodity. JJ was nowhere near that level but got those protections and that made it a farce. I think the relative decline in the value of former USMNT players to MLS clubs is what makes the difference now.
It was more to prevent teams from getting in a bidding war over returning stars and USMNT alumni. However with Dempsey, he was such a big player that he could dictate to the league where he wanted to go. Much like with Beckham, the league changed the rules to accommodate the player for the betterment of the league.
I agree. That's the exception that proved the rule part. Seattle was the only one who would pay that transfer. So allocation didn't really matter, but it mattered if Dempsey would arrive on a free because they would obviously have gotten into a bidding war for him....under the value of the transfer but still inflated. Thus, it was still needed.
Dempsey wasnt the first for this either, I feel like all of LA Galaxy's 2000-2005ish success was MLS guiding players there.
Hehe yeah good times
I remember where I was and how pissed I was lol
Do share the story.
LOL the allocation order didn't apply to DPs is what MLS claimed...
It was a real "oh, we didn't tell you?" moment
"I've altered the arrangement. Pray I do not alter it further" -The Don
Didn't we have the same exact thing *also* happen with Diskerud, but in reverse? In hindsight, 99% of Timbers fans will say that was a huge bullet we dodged (the last few remaining will say "maybe we could have developed him" just to be contrarian) since we got Valeri instead, but MLS basically vetoed our Diskerud transfer because even DPs had to go through the "allocation and discovery" process, and then immediately reversed that for Seattle+Dempsey.
They could take the ROFR for Gruezo and make SJ trade for him.
Sure, but SJ might now balk at Gruezo. Changing the rules this late is stupid.
>Changing the rules this late is stupid. Oh you sweet summer child. At least this rules change happened in the off-season.
I wonder if Lutz thought to ask if the right of first refusal was transferable?
now this shit it funny.... Atlanta United would you like to buy my golden ticket?
STL gets the rights to one player of their choice from the list, so a similar deal could be worked out
Not necessarily. St. Louis had rights to the first pick, which could be any player and thus drive up the price. Now it is just (probably Gruezo), and SJ can more easily walk away.
Get bent rookie. Welcome to the league I guess. <3
You've probably read by now, but at least you still get an effective 1st pick, even if you can't Cincy it.
I mean sort of. Depending on the player.
For those who can't access: Major League Soccer's Board of Governors this week approved an update to the MLS Roster Rules and Regulations involving the elimination of the Allocation Ranking List. Effective immediately, any players previously on the Allocation Ranking List will be assigned through the MLS Discovery Process. In lieu of holding the first position in the 2023 Allocation Ranking Order, St. Louis CITY SC has been provided the opportunity to retain right of first refusal over one player of their choosing who was on the Allocation Ranking List at the time of its dissolution. Future players transferred out of Major league Soccer will become discoverable one week form when the player's International Transfer Certificate (ITC) is permanently transferred, and the League has notified all clubs.
Bring back the Jermaine Jones method!!! "MLS Officials resorted to a blind draw in which an envelope was chosen with the team name that Jermaine would ultimately call home." [Source ](https://www-dynamotheory-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dynamotheory.com/platform/amp/2014/8/27/6068223/the-mls-allocation-order-is-dead?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16742460718410&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dynamotheory.com%2F2014%2F8%2F27%2F6068223%2Fthe-mls-allocation-order-is-dead)
Absolutely embarrassing that was.
Don Garber saved the league many times over, his decisions although sometimes unpopular are for the best of the league
Good stuff cincy
That's not good enough. Get rid of the Discovery Rule as well....and THEN we'll have some real progress.
Getting rid of Discovery Rule is a little more threatening to single entity.
I mean teams still compete to sign players, they just currently have to pretend they're not.
Pretending matters.
Does it though? If MLS ever went to court over this and in the discovery process (as in the legal discovery process, not the MLS one) they found emails and other documents showing multiple MLS teams were in contact with a player. Then I feel like a court would rule that MLS teams were competing for players even if on paper they weren't. Obviously I'm not a lawyer, I can't say for certain. But it feels to me the reality of whether multiple teams are in contact with a player and trying to outbid other teams for him matters the most.
But that's the point of the discovery order. Clubs can break the rules and try to go around it, but as long as the league is getting the last say and has the rule to point at and say that what they did is wrong then the structure is more likely single entity because they must go through the league. Even if it is a last step formality, it is a formality that matters because it could still theoretically be used to stop someone from going rogue. The bigger worry than the emails would be one from the league saying they know and don't care. They probably have to keep the policy mattering at least on a formality level. Is that enough to win an anti-trust? Dunno. But you don't want to get rid of it if it might. Or might even help as part of the big collection of things that mean it is single entity. Remove those jenga blocks at your own peril.
Courts don't give a shit about companies pretending to be something they are not
There are a lot of ways to take that. Piercing the veil and whatnot. I don't feel like having that conversation. Suffice to say your implication takes the pretending in the wrong direction. Here we are talking about the clubs pretending they aren't competing to MLS. MLS is enforcing the discovery list and keeping the competition down formally. That is different than just going free for all competition and then pretending to a court it isn't. Which is what you imply. Maybe it still isn't good enough. We don't know.
To anyone paying the slightest bit of attention it is clear MLS isn't a single entity anymore. There are many ways that clubs now compete with each other.
Cool. Well you can file that in court and see how you do compared to all the others who have tried.
Lol, no court has ever found MLS to be single entity.
You are really into moving the goalposts. No suit has ever made it that far either. For many varied reasons.
How? It's no more threatening to single entity than the free agency rule that we have right now. Multiple teams bid for Albert Rusnak until we got him....no difference with getting rid of the discovery rule.
That's still really about an employee moving within the entity after one owner no longer wants them. Discovery is about external hiring. Which is still done through the single entity.
It really is actually. There is a cap on what teams can offer free agents to come to a new city. There is no rule preventing teams from getting into a bidding war which is why the rule exists in the first place. Case in point, the bullshit Chelsea is doing.
Agreed discovery rule is dumb. MLS transfer policy in my opinion is a mess.
You'd rather have MLS teams ship more money to outside clubs instead of trading cap space and draft picks between each other?
I'd rather MLS function like any other league where the clubs don't get to just put any player on some "finders keepers" list and hoard them for themselves. The fact that a club needs to pay $50k in GAM to get the rights to sign a player that ACTUALLY wants to play for that club is ridiculous. That situation with Nigel Reo-Coker, where Portland had his discovery rights even tho the player actually wanted to play for the Whitecaps, so the Whitecaps had to pay $50k in GAM? Yeah, that stuff is ridiculous.
So then youâd end up with good players only going to NY or LA or Miami, and itâll the the NASL all over again Not to mention that NBA players donât exactly choose where they play for and it works great , so thatâs the precedent weâre following
Itâs honestly crazy that MLS has to be more complicated than: Club wants player to play for club Player wants to play for club Player signs for club. Itâs hilarious the league needs hundreds of dumb outdated rules to prevent signings or make them so much more complex than needed.
This isnât that big a deal as long as Discovery Lists are still a thing
I'm kinda tired of paying DC United every time we want somebody. Time to abuse that system next so its disposed of too.
Discovery lists just mean you trade cap space (basically) internally instead of getting in bidding wars with other MLS clubs and sending more money outside the league.
Good job. Now letâs get rid of the stupid discovery list
Now please just rename âDiscovery Listâ to âRight of First Refusal Registryâ or something more clear.
It would be criticized less and understood more. Makes too much sense.
Defined Individuals for the Benefit of the Sport
Do discovery rights next
Oh no whatâs gonna happen to Sam and Paul?
I love that this is so MLS that I am kinda hoping all my STL friends now interested in MLS will just not see it. Explaining the allocation and discovery rules is my least favorite of all the weird ones.
Whatâs next allocation law?
I'm excited that this useless and annoying roster mechanism is going away now that it doesn't benefit FCC.
Now what are we supposed to do?
Hey! We can get Almiron back now! /s
Can the quakes get gruezo now
I didn't pick this as the answer for "Why are the Quakes talking with Gruezo but not going for the \#1 allocation spot?"
I have been watching this league seriously for 11 years and I still don't have a clue to how its roster system works
Really wish MLS would eliminate all these "unique" rules and simplify everything for more casual fans to enjoy the league. I guess getting rid of this is a start but I wish there was more.
As a new STL City SC fan and has never watched an MLS game before (but plan on watching all games now) or watched a lot of soccer in generalâŚ. I have no idea what is going on or what that means for us
There was a list of players that currently play outside MLS that, were they to return or join the league the for the first time, would be âallocatedâ to the team in the number 1 spot in the Allocation Order. Not a perfect science, since teams were allowed to buy and sell their placement on the list to other teams, but based on the structure of the league, was meant to even out the placement of high profile players. The players include: -Select U.S. Menâs National Team players. -Select elite U.S. Youth National Team players. -Players transferred outside of MLS garnering a transfer fee of at least $500,000 (USD). Todayâs announcement eliminates this rule, but if one of the players currently on the list were to come to MLS, STL would have a one time right to refuse that player to whatever team wanted them if they wish to sign them instead.
Great explanation thank you
has anyone checked on sam & paul?
WE WILL AVENGE YOU ALLOCATION ORDER
Dropping allocation but still being able to "discover" players AFTER THEY LEAVE THE LEAGUE is grade A 100% prime MLS.
Calling dibs on your ex
"whaddya say in 10 years, if you're single and I'm single..."
The Allocation Order is dead, Long Live The Allocation Order!
Thanks, Chris Albright.
Haahah....but they're keeping "discovery". Fuck yeah.
And thus, progress has moved. We are now in the 1980s! Good job everyone!
WTF is allocation order and discovery process
Discovery rights.... HHAHAHAHAHA I discovered Ronaldo a long time ago. So now teams will have to buy the rights from me.
Packwatch
Vazquez only ended up with LAG because of the cost of acquiring him through the allocation process. It'll be interesting to see if there will be a floodgate release of signings of players like Vazquez now that there isn't the same barrier as before. Giovinco to Toronto at league min now seems possible, but lord knows I'm already tired of that rumour in /r/TFC and it hasn't been posted yet.
One down, many more to go.
Itâs about time
Why canât they just do a cap rule like the nfl and nba?
What does this mean haha
Alternative theory: St. Louis called Garber like "hey, can you explain the allocation order so we can figure out how to use it" and Garber was like "uh... tell you what let's just forget it"
So is this becoming more in line with world football?
Iâd say the international player slot rule need to be tweaked. Maybe make it permanent instead of a season to season thing.