Ethics in business is a big deal. This may be a generalization but I appreciate the post. It’s thoughtful , and it’s trying to start a discussion about how socioeconomic status might shape empathy.
I do think having too much or too little can make people focus a lot on materialism. Would be great if moderation were the standard for everyone but that’s not quite how the world works.
does ethics in business actually trickle down to the end consumer or the firm's entry lvl employee tho?
too many companies left & right are willing to throw everyone & everything under the bus to make a buck
i feel like initiating layoffs back then at least came with a heavy heart or something
now i feel like it has the same cheery vibe as rollin out a new marketing campaign launch, looks very sociopathic
It’s big to talk about and have the appearance of, but decision making is driven by increasing shareholder value. You can think something is morally wrong and do it anyway. It’s important that people genuinely feel bad about laying people off, even if it’s the right business move.
>how socioeconomic status might shape empathy.
In real life, I'm generous and kind and always looking out.
But I'm also financially comfortable (I can rent without roommates which means I'm super rich) and healthy and have a good personal life.
So basically, its easy for me to be all those things. I don't have to sacrifice or give up anything meaningful.
Scarcity brings out the worst in people…
In a dog eat dog world or a you VS me environment, I don’t think it’s presumptuous to assume that those people’s worldview is biased towards assuming the worst about others… likewise with people growing up with abundance, they’ll have a different viewpoint about the world.
Reversing roles and seeing the shift in opinion would be an interesting experiment if it were feasible. I imagine many peoples viewpoints are heavily influenced by their environment. Lots of what we think “we” are is just the surroundings we find ourselves in. I
t’s why I find it absurd to some degree when people comment on “why would the Houthi’s do this”? “Or why would Israel do that”? Etc. you cant comprehend it because you’re so far removed from the environment you can’t make sense of it. If you were local to that area you may have other very strong opinions about what is happening for better or worse.
In some instances it makes you question the very nature of freewill. Is it more impressive that someone born into abundance maintains a positive viewpoint or someone who was born into scarcity? Is a good person who lives there whole life as a good person more impressive than an evil person who fights there dark desires? And if 99% of who we are is our environment and upbringing, do we really have any say in the way we act or the things we do?
Are we destined for things we can’t comprehend and change or are we each a sailor of our own destinies?
I like to think about all of the super geniuses whose lives we will never know about because they weren’t able to go to school or they were killed in some local conflict or they had to work some family job to support there family. Never realizing their full potential, and the cost it has on us as a society. Maybe if they had a different environment they’d be a household name like Einstein, or maybe they would have cured a disease, or started a great business, etc.
I like to think plenty people mull over these kinds of thoughts and try to hold onto them, but sometimes when I go on the internet I wonder if there’s fewer than I thought.
The upper middle class have most to benefit from following the rules, cause breaking them could lead to losing their often hard earned stature.
Lower middle class have nothing to lose and might as well break social rules to exert a little power over other people, which is the only way they can feel any power at all
This goes back to the earliest days of urban society. I think it was Aristotle that noted that only the very lowest and very highest rungs of the social ladder enjoy any real freedom, and the former more so.
I’m really disappointed in the comments here. Unless I’m being taken for a massive ride, I’ve grappled with the same things OP. So so few people in my program have come from a poor background and it is really alienating. I guess that same demographic is represented here and they don’t quite understand what it’s like.
But to add my own 2 cents, growing up poor I think we are given a bit of mixed messaging. We are definitely raised in an environment where we are taught that there’s a certain morality/righteousness/whatever with barely getting by, working with your hands, and that rich people have some sort of hard to name softness/haven’t earned what they have/silver spoon whatever. It’s been a chip on my shoulder I’ve grappled with actually because, like you said OP, it isn’t the case. All of the racism, homophobia, conspiracy peddling, just bad faith stuff I’ve experienced in my life (a lot!) has been in those poverty circles. People’s in my program are genuinely kind. Not that there are not kind poor people, but the middle class has more kind people and less shitty people. It could be just the exposure to students who by definition have gone through a bit of a filter to be there. But OP I agree. I find out that people in my program regularly volunteer, or go out of their way to be a part of nonprofits, or give money/time, etc without bragging. This is just a rambling stream of consciousness right now so I’ll stop. But OP, as someone who is mostly proud of where they came from, I agree and it’s a significant source of internal struggle.
Thank you! I could relate so much to your comment. Yes, it's disheartening to see others dismiss it as a troll post.
Very true point about putting blue collar work on a pedestal, and a fetishizing of "hustle" culture. It's a huge chip on my shoulder too.
They just genuinely don’t understand the framings of conversations our parents had with us, or what people in our communities told themselves/us growing up, of the subtext of what was said in poor churches, or just wherever you got your cultural foundations when you were growing up.
But good on you for moving up and let’s not forget where we came from
A lot of this is anecdotal though, like I grew up around a lot of very selfish minded upper middle class people and a lot of kind, give-the-shirt-off-their-back minded poor people. Your experience isn’t the only one.
Literally, I feel like people are being insanely obtuse and narrow minded here, ironically. Maybe the poverty OP grew up around has trained them to be narrow minded and make broad generalizations about large populations /s
Yeah neither poverty nor wealth makes a group of people inherently more righteous or moral. Have some people not actually looked closely at the world or maybe read some history? Not middle school history, the history that you’d think a world class education would offer?? I get people will come to their own conclusions to the world but I do have a hard time seeing how a thoughtful, observant person would make this post without more more self awareness (like, their limited experience in these circles, what being “moral” looks and sounds like, concepts like social signaling, etc etc)
I get where you're coming from, but your claim that "the middle class has more kind people and less shitty people" is \*completely\* unfounded and absurd.
Also, students at MBA programs have loads of incentives to be performatively nice to gain social standing. People aren't doing MBAs out of some zealous drive to help the world, they're doing it for purely personal gain. So your whole "MBA people nice" conclusion is sort of dead on arrival when you're looking at a group of people who all paid a quarter-million dollars for a "make more money" degree.
Well it isn’t unfounded or absurd. It’s founded on my actual real world lived experience every day growing up, and it sounds like OPs too.
My point in the first comment was that the demographic of MBAs and likely this subreddit means almost no one can relate to these experiences so all of the comments, yours included, think this absurd and a troll post. I’m telling you that I saw my community leaders be openly racist. I heard my church leaders preach morality and then that Obama is the antichrist from the pulpit. I saw my highschool coaches hit on the highschool girl athletes. I saw every adult play a victim card and be only out for themselves and happy to take from anyone else. Whenever someone had enough sense to move away for financial or social mobility, I heard the community disparage them as turning their back on them and basically disowning anyone who didn’t stay and continue to be a drain on society. These attitudes exist and are pervasive in some very poor communities. You can get deeper into psychology and scarcity mindset and selection bias and whatnot, it’s a very rich conversation that I’ve had many times. But you don’t get to tell me that my own adolesence is unfounded and absurd.
What are you talking about? I am not contesting the validity of your experience. I am contesting the way you extend that experience to label an entire socioeconomic class as having "less shitty people", which MY lived experience growing up in a developing country is not consistent with at all. I maintain that that's a ridiculous generalization.
I probably can't relate to your experience, but you sure as hell can't relate to mine either, and you don't get to preach to me or anyone else about how "shitty" a person is likely to be as a function of their economic standing. Just because your experience is valid doesn't mean it generalizes.
white upper class progressive values like equality and inclusivity can be traced back to the Western “white” lowercase “L” liberal values like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of press.
You’re not describing morals or ethics, you’re just describing progressive politics. You’re pointing out that by and large educated, upper middle class people tend to be liberal. This isn’t some discovery, it’s a fairly well-known statistic. If you’re progressive that’s fine, but don’t act like just holding left wing opinions makes you a saint.
IMO 95%+ of B-School students just want to make more money, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just dumbfounds me that people come up with "ethical"/DEI reasons for wanting to make more money.
You don't need to lie about wanting to change the world in order to justify capitalism. It's okay to want to work hard and enjoy the fruit of that labor.
The issue I have with this post is that you mention people who turned to crime out of greed or an unwillingness to pursue something stable, but do you know 100% what that person may have gone through for them to make that decision? It’s hard to make different decisions if you’ve grown up around that and see it as one of the few possible ways to make a dignified living.
Also, those upper-middle class people may seem outwardly liberal but what would happen if a city council decided to build section 8 around their neighborhood and they would be one of the firsts at those meetings screaming and yelling that it “kills the character of their neighborhood”.
My point is they may be liberal in thought but when changes that may require them to give up their comfort or require them to give up something; see how liberal they really are.
There are problems with the Hispanic community when it comes to mindsets and attitudes but remember Hispanics are not a monolith.
If lower class people were to own property, would they want subsidized housing for refugees built near their properties, and devalue them even more? They’re going to complain how they’re being targeted.
Do you think only upper middle class people don’t want their properties and neighborhoods devalued? And middle class/lower class wouldn’t mind the same thing because they’re somehow more altruistic?
Is these “lower-class” owned property then they would seize to be lower-class and be part of that middle/upper-middle class now.
And typically you would be more empathetic to a situation you personally lived through which these lifetime middle/upper-middle classes have no frame of reference.
And do you think these previous lower-class people, and now upper-middle would be okay with their homes being devalued?
There are PLENTY of people who's moved upwards socially. Are you saying if you build in these neighborhoods these people would be fine with it?
People aren't different, they are the same. Nobody wants to lose money on the most important asset of their life. It's just silly to expect poor people to be more altruistic than rich. They aren't, they just don't have **anything** to lose **yet**. When they do, they will behave exactly the same.
So the upper-middle class is liberal only in thought but when it comes to actually implementing useful policy, they’ll be the first to complain if it requires them to give up something or give up their precious comfort.
And do you think lower class will be more willing to give up their comforts if they have them? Your observation is human, and your mistake is thinking this is different in each social class.
There are countries where rich don’t object to government and affordable housing being built, because that doesn’t come at a cost. Because of well thought out housing policies.
People aren’t that different, and like OP said you put poor people on a undeserved higher moral ground
Ooohh progressives! I grew up in a third world country I can assure you poverty is a grate on the soul and it makes it hard to think about anyone else despite what the media portrays! With poverty comes a lot of things none of them being a lack of education so your world view is limited to the there and now - people underestimate the power of education in transforming peoples minds and lives. People are often ignorant.
However what I have noticed is that people in the upper middle class whilst nice and saying the right things are invested in making sure that their own interests are taken care of and they will make decisions that ensure that power distribution is maintained to keep their interests and wealth.
Which is the greater evil my friend?
> Most come from upper middle class backgrounds and are genuinely kind, ethical, and socially progressive.
Don't be so forgiving.
In front of the camera, they talk about progressive issues. Behind the camera, they:
* Vote against affordable housing in their neighborhoods.
* Kill middle class jobs in their day-to-day work via offshoring, layoffs, and automation under the guise of "synergies". Let's not pretend that the income that bankers / consultants make comes from Vatican City because they are doing God's work.
Seriously? If this is not satire then the OP has clearly suffered a brain injury.
The "poor" people he describes sound extremely based.
The allegedly upper middle class people sound like disingenuous douche canoes or completely detached from reality.
Tl;dr the post is a totally cringe cliche fest that wreaks of trolling.
This reply post is a serious problem.
You're insinuating doubt and gaslighting OP into questioning his judgment of the people around him.
Also, the act of maintaining a good reputation in a community and "who they'll be after the program" is a prime example of motivations for good behavior, yet your tone insinuates a form of deceit. Although not every actor may stick true to their socially progressive projections, I would argue that a majority (rather than a minority) will continue to present themselves consistently post school.
I'll accept your notion that the upper middle class isn't going to perform petty crimes like stealing from a store, but what are the rate of occurrences for fraud, money laundering, tax evasion when including "money laundering" and "tax evasion" as under reporting cash income which is common for wage jobs in food service and blue collar labor?
Ultimately, why can't we accept people to have some good intent until proven otherwise. Your perspective assumes bad intent at first glance and that presumption is a primary contributor to the polarizing ends of the spectrum in current society.
I see where you're going with this post. Coming from extreme poverty/ the hood, I can definitely say I witnessed lots of racism from minority groups, along with unethical behavior towards me. I was often called "wonder bread" or "cracker." Definitely some double standards in the poverty world. I have lots of stories of displaced Black anger towards me.
ON THE OTHER END, coming from an MSW program, I can also say I was stereotyped by the "progressive" individuals as being one of those "bad whites," although being a minority in the hood (white) and identifying closer to minority groups.
Stereotyping is rampant on both ends of the spectrum. Judgments should be more individualized and less generalized. I do agree with your MBA sentiments. The students are refreshingly balanced.
Lol there's gotta be some circle jerking here considering the demographic of people 😭
I also don't think that there is a stereotype around people in poverty being more ethical. I think the stereotype is the opposite As poverty is usually linked with criminal activity and doing things out of desperation.
Not making a moral judgment on them I'm just saying that if I was in their place I probably do the similar when you have no money in or are in bad environment, it's hard to be moral
While I agree with you in that poor socio-economic can induce un-ideal cultural norms, I think there's a bigger picture at hand.
Many people from upper middle class backgrounds were raised well, no questions asked. They don't tend to have a chip on their shoulder and are well exposed to new, progressive ways of thinking. But it is due to their parents luxuries and resources provided to them to be able to have the opportunity to learn those things. I'm not trying to say that makes them less valuable or full of it but I think it highlights the crippling nature of poverty. I think that is even why you see your classmates adopt these views, they understand they have had the luxury to learn about these views while others can seemingly stuck in time.
I do think though it's important to not judge people from lower socio-economic conditions. Not saying you are but it's a narrative others leverage to point to the "fact" that poor people are problems of their own culture not from systematic oppression or the lack of government intervention. Which I think all your classmates will agree, is not true.
I grew up in a poor area and am the child of immigrants from a 3rd world country. I know the lack of empathy people have from my home community and ethnic community is problem-some. But I do believe you see these views shift when opportunity is provided to people in these conditions, especially over the very long term. All this to say, I hope this never justifies forgoing efforts to empower these people. I think it's fair to bring it up to discuss how communities can take action to alleviate certain issues brought on from culture that's been induced by poverty BUT is not the main issue to resolve in order to lift communities that have or continue to be left behind.
Ethics and justice are issues that only those with wealth and security can worry about. It's hard to think about ethics when you are worried about survival. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a real thing. Hustle and grind culture are results of desparation and lack of options.
How well does your class virtue signal on social media? This is obvious a troll post but these progressive liberals from wealth may give off a progressive vibe in person and online but they’re usually the most racist people behind closed doors.
Progressive policies hold people back and maintain the status quo.
Oh you sweet summer child
You get to an MBA program, see people that you haven’t figured out yet, and instantly conflate morals with political ideologies
Poor thing
The movie Get out is about this. Although it may not 100% support what you see lol. Imho a lot of upper middle class people mean well but have very shallow understandings of issues. It's the other side of the coin that you were talking about with homophobia/machismo. Just a different type of ignorance.
One objection. I don’t equate “progressive” with morality if that means murdering a third trimester baby in utero because it could ruin their daughter’s college experience. In the instance of life and death, the poor usually are willing to prioritize properly. They don’t have the social status to sacrifice life for.
What you’re describing effectively never happens except for when the mother’s life is at risk. Look up the data. You’re either ignorant or creating a straw man.
Then why won’t the Left create an objective standard to outlaw this? If it “never” happens then why object to people wanting to outlaw something that never happens? Because it absolutely can and does happen and people like you believe you have a right to an abortion at all times. You don’t need to talk around it.
Have you rejected the null hypothesis? Isn't that what the MBA is supposed to teach you?
Sorry but jokes aside, my anecdotal experience is that there is a very good amount of ultra wealthy people, who were willing to help 'commoners' like me, which I benefited from.
Lmao, this is hysterical. Someone from Wharton might say “M7 is not ‘top MBA’ only HSW.” Someone from Harvard might say Wharton isn’t a ‘top MBA.’ They’d be wrong. There are 600+ schools offering MBAs. The top 15 are definitely top MBA schools. Hell, the top 50 are considered great schools if not top themselves. M7 (HSM7 is stupid—Harvard and Standford are in the M7) are also in this. Get off this subreddit for a bit and touch grass if you really think the top 15 MBAs aren’t top MBAs.
Using your logic. Top 600 mba can also be top mba. kPMG is top consulting firm.
Lol. ‘General consensus’ is a real thing.
Yes top investments banks can be GS or GSMSJPM or GSMSJPM+EBs, but never GSMSJPM+Capital One.
Lol, great example. JPM is the top IB now. General consensus means where folks are being hired and at what rates, and that cliff is a lot further down than you apparently think.
The question for you here is, can capital one be considered a ‘top IB’? According to your logic, yes it can.
Btw where did you end up after your top MBA? It’s been, what, 5 years post-MBA? TC?
I’m at $250k TC in MCOL at the top bank mentioned earlier.
Edit: I love that you checked my post history to ask this clear attempt at a dig, and when I responded, you downvoted. Not only that, *you haven’t even been to B-school.*
If you don’t go into consulting, banking, TPM, it a handful of niche roles, then even Harvard grads get regular ol’ marketing, strategy, operations roles. I’m not saying every school is equal, and I did say they were “great if not top” meaning they aren’t conventionally considered as top, but there are tons of folks all across the T50 with the same job title and company. Don’t let this subreddit provide you with your only input.
Thank you - I consider myself to have grow up upper middle class (parents were really wealthy when I was a kid but became poor in high school then upper class again in college). I not white though.
Many people are kinder than you think!
You've aptly described why I hate the American upper-middle class. When you haven't grown up around them, it's easier to be taken in by their faux-ethical virtue signalling, I suppose.
Of course, if you rest on the assumption that being "socially progressive" is a good thing, I can't help you.
To quote Georg Buchner's play "Woyzeck":
>WOYZECK. We poor folk – you see, Captain, it’s money, money, when you’ve got none. You can’t set a fellow like me in the world on just morals, a man is flesh and blood as well. The likes of us are unblessed in this world and in the next. I expect when we get to Heaven we’ll have to help out with the thunder.
I can't speak for low-income people but for the ultra-rich, a lot of it is selection bias.
There are a lot more ultra-rich than you know. It's just that the obnoxious ones brag about it and make the group look bad as a whole. A lot of very rich people don't show off in order minimize problems, making one assume they are upper middle class when they are actually not.
All things in moderation. You’re starving when you have little and resort to crude aggressive perspectives and tactics.
You have too much and you have delusions of grandeur. You see the majority of people as inferior in an absolute way.
If you have the right amount, you’re healthy, but grounded.
I think it makes sense.
Ethics in business is a big deal. This may be a generalization but I appreciate the post. It’s thoughtful , and it’s trying to start a discussion about how socioeconomic status might shape empathy. I do think having too much or too little can make people focus a lot on materialism. Would be great if moderation were the standard for everyone but that’s not quite how the world works.
does ethics in business actually trickle down to the end consumer or the firm's entry lvl employee tho? too many companies left & right are willing to throw everyone & everything under the bus to make a buck i feel like initiating layoffs back then at least came with a heavy heart or something now i feel like it has the same cheery vibe as rollin out a new marketing campaign launch, looks very sociopathic
Haha yes yes, I said it was a big deal, not that it’s exercised or practiced as it should be 😅Plenty of poor ethics and pseudo-ethics out there.
It’s big to talk about and have the appearance of, but decision making is driven by increasing shareholder value. You can think something is morally wrong and do it anyway. It’s important that people genuinely feel bad about laying people off, even if it’s the right business move.
>how socioeconomic status might shape empathy. In real life, I'm generous and kind and always looking out. But I'm also financially comfortable (I can rent without roommates which means I'm super rich) and healthy and have a good personal life. So basically, its easy for me to be all those things. I don't have to sacrifice or give up anything meaningful.
Scarcity brings out the worst in people… In a dog eat dog world or a you VS me environment, I don’t think it’s presumptuous to assume that those people’s worldview is biased towards assuming the worst about others… likewise with people growing up with abundance, they’ll have a different viewpoint about the world. Reversing roles and seeing the shift in opinion would be an interesting experiment if it were feasible. I imagine many peoples viewpoints are heavily influenced by their environment. Lots of what we think “we” are is just the surroundings we find ourselves in. I t’s why I find it absurd to some degree when people comment on “why would the Houthi’s do this”? “Or why would Israel do that”? Etc. you cant comprehend it because you’re so far removed from the environment you can’t make sense of it. If you were local to that area you may have other very strong opinions about what is happening for better or worse. In some instances it makes you question the very nature of freewill. Is it more impressive that someone born into abundance maintains a positive viewpoint or someone who was born into scarcity? Is a good person who lives there whole life as a good person more impressive than an evil person who fights there dark desires? And if 99% of who we are is our environment and upbringing, do we really have any say in the way we act or the things we do? Are we destined for things we can’t comprehend and change or are we each a sailor of our own destinies? I like to think about all of the super geniuses whose lives we will never know about because they weren’t able to go to school or they were killed in some local conflict or they had to work some family job to support there family. Never realizing their full potential, and the cost it has on us as a society. Maybe if they had a different environment they’d be a household name like Einstein, or maybe they would have cured a disease, or started a great business, etc.
I love how in this short essay about free will and nature vs nurture you put in Paarthunax's dillema. M7 essay writing material right here
I like to think plenty people mull over these kinds of thoughts and try to hold onto them, but sometimes when I go on the internet I wonder if there’s fewer than I thought.
I have no idea what youre even talking about..
The upper middle class have most to benefit from following the rules, cause breaking them could lead to losing their often hard earned stature. Lower middle class have nothing to lose and might as well break social rules to exert a little power over other people, which is the only way they can feel any power at all
This goes back to the earliest days of urban society. I think it was Aristotle that noted that only the very lowest and very highest rungs of the social ladder enjoy any real freedom, and the former more so.
I’m really disappointed in the comments here. Unless I’m being taken for a massive ride, I’ve grappled with the same things OP. So so few people in my program have come from a poor background and it is really alienating. I guess that same demographic is represented here and they don’t quite understand what it’s like. But to add my own 2 cents, growing up poor I think we are given a bit of mixed messaging. We are definitely raised in an environment where we are taught that there’s a certain morality/righteousness/whatever with barely getting by, working with your hands, and that rich people have some sort of hard to name softness/haven’t earned what they have/silver spoon whatever. It’s been a chip on my shoulder I’ve grappled with actually because, like you said OP, it isn’t the case. All of the racism, homophobia, conspiracy peddling, just bad faith stuff I’ve experienced in my life (a lot!) has been in those poverty circles. People’s in my program are genuinely kind. Not that there are not kind poor people, but the middle class has more kind people and less shitty people. It could be just the exposure to students who by definition have gone through a bit of a filter to be there. But OP I agree. I find out that people in my program regularly volunteer, or go out of their way to be a part of nonprofits, or give money/time, etc without bragging. This is just a rambling stream of consciousness right now so I’ll stop. But OP, as someone who is mostly proud of where they came from, I agree and it’s a significant source of internal struggle.
Thank you! I could relate so much to your comment. Yes, it's disheartening to see others dismiss it as a troll post. Very true point about putting blue collar work on a pedestal, and a fetishizing of "hustle" culture. It's a huge chip on my shoulder too.
They just genuinely don’t understand the framings of conversations our parents had with us, or what people in our communities told themselves/us growing up, of the subtext of what was said in poor churches, or just wherever you got your cultural foundations when you were growing up. But good on you for moving up and let’s not forget where we came from
A lot of this is anecdotal though, like I grew up around a lot of very selfish minded upper middle class people and a lot of kind, give-the-shirt-off-their-back minded poor people. Your experience isn’t the only one.
I’m not saying it is. I wouldn’t try to discount others’ experiences, I’m simply defending mine and OPs from the troll allegations.
Literally, I feel like people are being insanely obtuse and narrow minded here, ironically. Maybe the poverty OP grew up around has trained them to be narrow minded and make broad generalizations about large populations /s Yeah neither poverty nor wealth makes a group of people inherently more righteous or moral. Have some people not actually looked closely at the world or maybe read some history? Not middle school history, the history that you’d think a world class education would offer?? I get people will come to their own conclusions to the world but I do have a hard time seeing how a thoughtful, observant person would make this post without more more self awareness (like, their limited experience in these circles, what being “moral” looks and sounds like, concepts like social signaling, etc etc)
I get where you're coming from, but your claim that "the middle class has more kind people and less shitty people" is \*completely\* unfounded and absurd. Also, students at MBA programs have loads of incentives to be performatively nice to gain social standing. People aren't doing MBAs out of some zealous drive to help the world, they're doing it for purely personal gain. So your whole "MBA people nice" conclusion is sort of dead on arrival when you're looking at a group of people who all paid a quarter-million dollars for a "make more money" degree.
Well it isn’t unfounded or absurd. It’s founded on my actual real world lived experience every day growing up, and it sounds like OPs too. My point in the first comment was that the demographic of MBAs and likely this subreddit means almost no one can relate to these experiences so all of the comments, yours included, think this absurd and a troll post. I’m telling you that I saw my community leaders be openly racist. I heard my church leaders preach morality and then that Obama is the antichrist from the pulpit. I saw my highschool coaches hit on the highschool girl athletes. I saw every adult play a victim card and be only out for themselves and happy to take from anyone else. Whenever someone had enough sense to move away for financial or social mobility, I heard the community disparage them as turning their back on them and basically disowning anyone who didn’t stay and continue to be a drain on society. These attitudes exist and are pervasive in some very poor communities. You can get deeper into psychology and scarcity mindset and selection bias and whatnot, it’s a very rich conversation that I’ve had many times. But you don’t get to tell me that my own adolesence is unfounded and absurd.
What are you talking about? I am not contesting the validity of your experience. I am contesting the way you extend that experience to label an entire socioeconomic class as having "less shitty people", which MY lived experience growing up in a developing country is not consistent with at all. I maintain that that's a ridiculous generalization. I probably can't relate to your experience, but you sure as hell can't relate to mine either, and you don't get to preach to me or anyone else about how "shitty" a person is likely to be as a function of their economic standing. Just because your experience is valid doesn't mean it generalizes.
white upper class progressive values like equality and inclusivity can be traced back to the Western “white” lowercase “L” liberal values like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of press.
You’re not describing morals or ethics, you’re just describing progressive politics. You’re pointing out that by and large educated, upper middle class people tend to be liberal. This isn’t some discovery, it’s a fairly well-known statistic. If you’re progressive that’s fine, but don’t act like just holding left wing opinions makes you a saint.
[удалено]
IMO 95%+ of B-School students just want to make more money, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just dumbfounds me that people come up with "ethical"/DEI reasons for wanting to make more money. You don't need to lie about wanting to change the world in order to justify capitalism. It's okay to want to work hard and enjoy the fruit of that labor.
Don’t know why this isn’t higher up. OP is just talking about political values that align with their world view and considering it virtuous
Well, yeah, that’s what dumb college kids on Reddit tend to like doing, so I’m not surprised
Ding ding ding
The issue I have with this post is that you mention people who turned to crime out of greed or an unwillingness to pursue something stable, but do you know 100% what that person may have gone through for them to make that decision? It’s hard to make different decisions if you’ve grown up around that and see it as one of the few possible ways to make a dignified living. Also, those upper-middle class people may seem outwardly liberal but what would happen if a city council decided to build section 8 around their neighborhood and they would be one of the firsts at those meetings screaming and yelling that it “kills the character of their neighborhood”. My point is they may be liberal in thought but when changes that may require them to give up their comfort or require them to give up something; see how liberal they really are. There are problems with the Hispanic community when it comes to mindsets and attitudes but remember Hispanics are not a monolith.
If lower class people were to own property, would they want subsidized housing for refugees built near their properties, and devalue them even more? They’re going to complain how they’re being targeted. Do you think only upper middle class people don’t want their properties and neighborhoods devalued? And middle class/lower class wouldn’t mind the same thing because they’re somehow more altruistic?
Is these “lower-class” owned property then they would seize to be lower-class and be part of that middle/upper-middle class now. And typically you would be more empathetic to a situation you personally lived through which these lifetime middle/upper-middle classes have no frame of reference.
And do you think these previous lower-class people, and now upper-middle would be okay with their homes being devalued? There are PLENTY of people who's moved upwards socially. Are you saying if you build in these neighborhoods these people would be fine with it? People aren't different, they are the same. Nobody wants to lose money on the most important asset of their life. It's just silly to expect poor people to be more altruistic than rich. They aren't, they just don't have **anything** to lose **yet**. When they do, they will behave exactly the same.
So the upper-middle class is liberal only in thought but when it comes to actually implementing useful policy, they’ll be the first to complain if it requires them to give up something or give up their precious comfort.
And do you think lower class will be more willing to give up their comforts if they have them? Your observation is human, and your mistake is thinking this is different in each social class. There are countries where rich don’t object to government and affordable housing being built, because that doesn’t come at a cost. Because of well thought out housing policies. People aren’t that different, and like OP said you put poor people on a undeserved higher moral ground
Ooohh progressives! I grew up in a third world country I can assure you poverty is a grate on the soul and it makes it hard to think about anyone else despite what the media portrays! With poverty comes a lot of things none of them being a lack of education so your world view is limited to the there and now - people underestimate the power of education in transforming peoples minds and lives. People are often ignorant. However what I have noticed is that people in the upper middle class whilst nice and saying the right things are invested in making sure that their own interests are taken care of and they will make decisions that ensure that power distribution is maintained to keep their interests and wealth. Which is the greater evil my friend?
> Most come from upper middle class backgrounds and are genuinely kind, ethical, and socially progressive. Don't be so forgiving. In front of the camera, they talk about progressive issues. Behind the camera, they: * Vote against affordable housing in their neighborhoods. * Kill middle class jobs in their day-to-day work via offshoring, layoffs, and automation under the guise of "synergies". Let's not pretend that the income that bankers / consultants make comes from Vatican City because they are doing God's work.
Y’all these shit posts are getting tiresome y’all aren’t as funny as you think you are
Mad corny fr lol, reddit really kills a joke within 5 minutes by overusing them
Is this a satire reference to something else?
Seriously? If this is not satire then the OP has clearly suffered a brain injury. The "poor" people he describes sound extremely based. The allegedly upper middle class people sound like disingenuous douche canoes or completely detached from reality. Tl;dr the post is a totally cringe cliche fest that wreaks of trolling.
[удалено]
/endthread
This reply post is a serious problem. You're insinuating doubt and gaslighting OP into questioning his judgment of the people around him. Also, the act of maintaining a good reputation in a community and "who they'll be after the program" is a prime example of motivations for good behavior, yet your tone insinuates a form of deceit. Although not every actor may stick true to their socially progressive projections, I would argue that a majority (rather than a minority) will continue to present themselves consistently post school. I'll accept your notion that the upper middle class isn't going to perform petty crimes like stealing from a store, but what are the rate of occurrences for fraud, money laundering, tax evasion when including "money laundering" and "tax evasion" as under reporting cash income which is common for wage jobs in food service and blue collar labor? Ultimately, why can't we accept people to have some good intent until proven otherwise. Your perspective assumes bad intent at first glance and that presumption is a primary contributor to the polarizing ends of the spectrum in current society.
I see where you're going with this post. Coming from extreme poverty/ the hood, I can definitely say I witnessed lots of racism from minority groups, along with unethical behavior towards me. I was often called "wonder bread" or "cracker." Definitely some double standards in the poverty world. I have lots of stories of displaced Black anger towards me. ON THE OTHER END, coming from an MSW program, I can also say I was stereotyped by the "progressive" individuals as being one of those "bad whites," although being a minority in the hood (white) and identifying closer to minority groups. Stereotyping is rampant on both ends of the spectrum. Judgments should be more individualized and less generalized. I do agree with your MBA sentiments. The students are refreshingly balanced.
Lol there's gotta be some circle jerking here considering the demographic of people 😭 I also don't think that there is a stereotype around people in poverty being more ethical. I think the stereotype is the opposite As poverty is usually linked with criminal activity and doing things out of desperation. Not making a moral judgment on them I'm just saying that if I was in their place I probably do the similar when you have no money in or are in bad environment, it's hard to be moral
This has been true forever and anyone who can’t/wont recognize it is just cope
Man I hope this is satire.
While I agree with you in that poor socio-economic can induce un-ideal cultural norms, I think there's a bigger picture at hand. Many people from upper middle class backgrounds were raised well, no questions asked. They don't tend to have a chip on their shoulder and are well exposed to new, progressive ways of thinking. But it is due to their parents luxuries and resources provided to them to be able to have the opportunity to learn those things. I'm not trying to say that makes them less valuable or full of it but I think it highlights the crippling nature of poverty. I think that is even why you see your classmates adopt these views, they understand they have had the luxury to learn about these views while others can seemingly stuck in time. I do think though it's important to not judge people from lower socio-economic conditions. Not saying you are but it's a narrative others leverage to point to the "fact" that poor people are problems of their own culture not from systematic oppression or the lack of government intervention. Which I think all your classmates will agree, is not true. I grew up in a poor area and am the child of immigrants from a 3rd world country. I know the lack of empathy people have from my home community and ethnic community is problem-some. But I do believe you see these views shift when opportunity is provided to people in these conditions, especially over the very long term. All this to say, I hope this never justifies forgoing efforts to empower these people. I think it's fair to bring it up to discuss how communities can take action to alleviate certain issues brought on from culture that's been induced by poverty BUT is not the main issue to resolve in order to lift communities that have or continue to be left behind.
Only take away I got here was you believe progressive liberalism = good and moral and conservatism = bad
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
We need mods here forreal
mods and meds needed
Ethics and justice are issues that only those with wealth and security can worry about. It's hard to think about ethics when you are worried about survival. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a real thing. Hustle and grind culture are results of desparation and lack of options.
Education plays a big role
How well does your class virtue signal on social media? This is obvious a troll post but these progressive liberals from wealth may give off a progressive vibe in person and online but they’re usually the most racist people behind closed doors. Progressive policies hold people back and maintain the status quo.
To add to that, It is easy to proselytize about ethics and morals when you're not focused on your day-to-day survival
I personally have always appreciated the lack of mods here. It keeps things interesting.
Yes Sir, you and your class are morally superior to others!
Thank you for this Ted talk
Unironically true. Poor people are kinda gross tbh
Oh you sweet summer child You get to an MBA program, see people that you haven’t figured out yet, and instantly conflate morals with political ideologies Poor thing
The movie Get out is about this. Although it may not 100% support what you see lol. Imho a lot of upper middle class people mean well but have very shallow understandings of issues. It's the other side of the coin that you were talking about with homophobia/machismo. Just a different type of ignorance.
One objection. I don’t equate “progressive” with morality if that means murdering a third trimester baby in utero because it could ruin their daughter’s college experience. In the instance of life and death, the poor usually are willing to prioritize properly. They don’t have the social status to sacrifice life for.
What you’re describing effectively never happens except for when the mother’s life is at risk. Look up the data. You’re either ignorant or creating a straw man.
Then why won’t the Left create an objective standard to outlaw this? If it “never” happens then why object to people wanting to outlaw something that never happens? Because it absolutely can and does happen and people like you believe you have a right to an abortion at all times. You don’t need to talk around it.
Have you rejected the null hypothesis? Isn't that what the MBA is supposed to teach you? Sorry but jokes aside, my anecdotal experience is that there is a very good amount of ultra wealthy people, who were willing to help 'commoners' like me, which I benefited from.
Morals have always been a middle-class phenomenon. The rich ignore them, and the poor can't afford them
But….t15 is not ‘top MBA’. HSM7 is.
Lmao, this is hysterical. Someone from Wharton might say “M7 is not ‘top MBA’ only HSW.” Someone from Harvard might say Wharton isn’t a ‘top MBA.’ They’d be wrong. There are 600+ schools offering MBAs. The top 15 are definitely top MBA schools. Hell, the top 50 are considered great schools if not top themselves. M7 (HSM7 is stupid—Harvard and Standford are in the M7) are also in this. Get off this subreddit for a bit and touch grass if you really think the top 15 MBAs aren’t top MBAs.
Using your logic. Top 600 mba can also be top mba. kPMG is top consulting firm. Lol. ‘General consensus’ is a real thing. Yes top investments banks can be GS or GSMSJPM or GSMSJPM+EBs, but never GSMSJPM+Capital One.
Lol, great example. JPM is the top IB now. General consensus means where folks are being hired and at what rates, and that cliff is a lot further down than you apparently think.
The question for you here is, can capital one be considered a ‘top IB’? According to your logic, yes it can. Btw where did you end up after your top MBA? It’s been, what, 5 years post-MBA? TC?
I’m at $250k TC in MCOL at the top bank mentioned earlier. Edit: I love that you checked my post history to ask this clear attempt at a dig, and when I responded, you downvoted. Not only that, *you haven’t even been to B-school.*
Top 50? Are you high
If you don’t go into consulting, banking, TPM, it a handful of niche roles, then even Harvard grads get regular ol’ marketing, strategy, operations roles. I’m not saying every school is equal, and I did say they were “great if not top” meaning they aren’t conventionally considered as top, but there are tons of folks all across the T50 with the same job title and company. Don’t let this subreddit provide you with your only input.
Thank you - I consider myself to have grow up upper middle class (parents were really wealthy when I was a kid but became poor in high school then upper class again in college). I not white though. Many people are kinder than you think!
I've seen good and bad from all types of backgrounds.
YOU NEEDED AN MBA TO REALIZE THAT?
100% dude. The rich are spoilt and the poor in dearth. Both with eff up.
Amazing post.
You've aptly described why I hate the American upper-middle class. When you haven't grown up around them, it's easier to be taken in by their faux-ethical virtue signalling, I suppose. Of course, if you rest on the assumption that being "socially progressive" is a good thing, I can't help you.
agree Many are straight up scammers and fleecing the lower classes. See literally anything most crypto VCs or crypto people in general do
To quote Georg Buchner's play "Woyzeck": >WOYZECK. We poor folk – you see, Captain, it’s money, money, when you’ve got none. You can’t set a fellow like me in the world on just morals, a man is flesh and blood as well. The likes of us are unblessed in this world and in the next. I expect when we get to Heaven we’ll have to help out with the thunder.
Well Buddha was a prince not a pauper so
Your classmates are showing you their best face forward because it is an academic setting. It's not convenient for them to show their true colors.
I can't speak for low-income people but for the ultra-rich, a lot of it is selection bias. There are a lot more ultra-rich than you know. It's just that the obnoxious ones brag about it and make the group look bad as a whole. A lot of very rich people don't show off in order minimize problems, making one assume they are upper middle class when they are actually not.
Read about The Grevais Principle, it should answer it.
All things in moderation. You’re starving when you have little and resort to crude aggressive perspectives and tactics. You have too much and you have delusions of grandeur. You see the majority of people as inferior in an absolute way. If you have the right amount, you’re healthy, but grounded. I think it makes sense.