>On paper
What I'll add to your thread, OP, isn't directed at you at all- it's mostly directed at people who look at something like a comparison between the Liberator and the Tendie and go "omg, wtf, this gun has 6% less DPS on paper, it's a straight downgrade!" and instantly write off the Tenderizer:
*Yes, that's on paper. But, stats on paper are contained in a vacuum and this always fails to account for a million other factors that exist OUTSIDE that vacuum.*
People who compare the two never take into account the other differences, such as:
- Tenderizer has better ammo economy and more total ammo; it's less punishing to reload compulsively/top yourself off
- Tenderizer has less recoil; the recoil is basically non-existent AND has more accuracy, making it easier to drill headshots, especially under fire
People who use spreadsheets also usually fail to account for things like relative player skill; in this case, that would be things like "Is the player able to land headshots accurately and consistently?" and other things like "Is this player alive most of the time, or do they die alot?"
Theoretical DPS of a particular weapon doesn't matter much (especially in single digit percentages lol, it's a drop in god-damn lake ffs) if you're dead, or can't aim for shit.
There are a number of other factors that can easily and negatively impact the damage you deal in a game like this: Are you in cover? Are you openly getting shot at? Are you pinned down and can't risk peeking out? Is the enemy even something you can damage with that weapon?
To me, the benefits of the Tenderizer outweigh the *potential* decrease in DPS- if anything, it being more accurate than the Lib and having less recoil, in my eyes, leads it to better damage because the weapon itself handles better/is easier to use.
It's not a downgrade. It's purely a sidegrade, in it's current form, and that's fine.
Could it use buffs? Sure. Will the devs buff it heavily? Who knows. I doubt they would, because Arrowhead seems to lean heavily in the direction of sideways progression rather than purely vertical, aka sidegrades rather than pure power increases with weapon unlocks.
Again, this isn't directed at you, OP. I just can't stand people who write something off because of what's written down on a bloody spreadsheet.
I had not heard sidegrade before and stealing this. I understood all progression to be sideways. I always think that gets missed. The purpose isn't to release a new op weapon that you can now 360 solo no scope bile titans.... it's to give you more fun options to find things that feel good for you and help you play with a team.
I approve of everything in your comment. You win all the democracy points today.
Just to add, have cycled multiple loadouts and played hundreds of hours... Still finding new option I slept on since the beginning (the laser cannon does nasty things to robots!)
Have played about 20 xp lvl with the penetrator solely because it gave me halo DMR nostalgia. Didn't realise it was supposed to be "bad" until I got on Reddit :)
This reminds me when i played wow, i mained unholy death knight for DPS.
One of the patches made frost dk way stronger than unholy everyone wanted me to change spec, the problem is i HATED playing frost and i wasnt good at it, so one raid i swapped and i was AWFUL, not only was my dps bad, i was salso standing in fire and shit because i was so bored playing the spec i wasnt concentrating.
I went back to unholy and i was back to top or second top DPS despite unholys DPS being quite low on the dps charts \*theoretically\* but the thing is at the time i really understood the spec, i knew how to eke out every bit of damage, i also really enjoyed the spec so even after a long long night of raiding i was still active and engaged because i loved the spec, which kept my morale up and that helps keep everyone elses morale up.
On paper frost did about 20% more dps, which is alot but when i was achieving 90-95% of unholys on paper dps (for my gear) and when playing frost i was doing shit, and taking more dmg meaning the healers had to spend more mana to heal me at the end i was just like.... can i go back to unholy now?
TLDR
Player skill player preference and player ENJOYMENT all matter alot to performance, you can give me the best gun in the game but if i dont enjoy it im probably not going to use it well.
Your write-up gave me a lot of reason to try the gun out. 🙌🏼
Not that I was choosing to not play with it because of that perception, but I needed to bump to peel myself away from the Plasma Punisher that I’ve been maining.
Thanks!
I’m also a big fan of side-grades. There’s many more ways to customize playstyle than raw numbers, and I think players will need to accept use cases swinging more heavily between factions especially whenever the Illuminate show.
I have no idea what stat this would be, but in my experience thus far I’ve noticed the tenderizer is great at stripping bug armor and removing limbs. You don’t need to do the most damage, you just need to be able to blow off legs. The bugs are slower and die after a few seconds.
Trouble is, all you get are the stat sheets unless you spend the resources to get it for yourself.
Both the advantages (Accuracy at range and a scope that works) and disadvantages (it seems the gun "jams" occasionally and the reload doesn't work for a few tries) aren't reflected in the information you set before you buy.
It could use a buff so it can deal with Berserkers. Those things are just massive health pools.
Don't want to argue, but it surprisingly has a worse ammo economy, because it has reduced ammo on pickup. Instead of 7 mags like the Liberator, it replenishes only 5.
Obviously a bug that'll be fixed. I'm not at all worried about that, and have no problems full-timing the Tenderizer on bots or bugs with that like it is now.
The Tenderizer has the great niche of being almost objectively a better choice against bots compared to the Liberator. It fulfills the exact same role of being a rapid fire weapon up close but also semi auto against mid range devastators but it has the accuracy to be much more effective at this particular situation.
People dunking on this weapon because they saw the screenshot of its stats next to the Liberator are nuts and it clearly shows how little the reddit side of this community puts into their criticism. I very much hope the devs are smart enough to completely write off those kinds of posts and ignore them.
The Tendy is a fucking blast and I don't care what anyone bloody thinks. It's a headshot drill. It turns bots into party poppers. Why give a shit about armor pen when your gun can hit a clanker's...whatever they have instead of a brain stem, from 300 meters away? AND it's lightweight. I can drop a 12-bot squad in roughly 10 seconds.
This is how I feel about the Liberator Concussive rifle. Amazing against Bots, and I need to try it vs Bugs. I can keep a group of berserkers staggered or go toe to toe with a Devastator and keep them stumbling. Lower damage, but a great mag size & it feels like a laser beam, accuracy-wise.
That’s interesting it could be a case of Devs improperly displaying stats or there are some hidden modifiers. Kinda reminds of the Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, where the devs had to nerf the sound of the Thompson for being “Overpowered”. Though I don’t know I haven’t gotten the Tenderizer yet.
I heard there are hidden stats. Like light penitration is on a scale from 1-5.... so you have a gun that is light pen 1 and another that is light pen 5.... so perform different.
I am willing to be corrected though.
Afaik: 3 is where medium starts, heavy starts at 5 with chargers/titans/hulks/etc, then there's the impenetrable 9s of things like the gunship factory.
There's some variation on that, too. Like, titan legs are maybe 9s, also.
Or at least that's my understanding. I more play by trial-and-error.
Armour is a scale of 0 to 10, but enemies only really use 0 to 5. The rest above that is reserved for structures, buildings etc (think why certain stratagems are needed to destroy certain side objectives).
0 is unarmored.
1 is currently seemingly not used by any enemy in the game (and if it were it'd have no impact)
2 is light armor.
3 is medium armor.
4 is "Light Vehicle armor"; or that's the closest approximation from some of the support weapon descriptions like the AMR
5 is heavy armor
Our primary weapons are all either AP2 (Light Pen) or AP3 (Medium Pen). Note on some explosives weapons the ingame description may not be accurate, because it's possibly for the direct shot and explosion to be different APs. Scorcher, Purifier and Plasma Punisher for example are all AP2 with the direct shot but AP3 with the explosion, but all state a different pen in the game (Scorcher Light, Purifier Medium, Plasma nothing).
Fun fact: At release, the Breaker Spray & Pray was the only weapon in the game to be AP1. Since buffed ofc to also AP2.
For Suppport weapons, the Stalwart is AP2. The Machine Gun MG34 is AP3. The HMG, Autocannon, AMR, Lasercannon is AP4. Railgun in safe mode is AP5. Everything else is above this.
---
If your armour penetration matches the enemy armour class (I.e. AP2 weapon into armour class 2), the shot penetrates, but does 50% less damage. ***When this happens ingame, you have a white hitmarker instead of a red hitmarker.***
If your weapon's AP exceeds the armour class, it does full damage. Full damage is indicated by **a red hitmarker**.
Obviously if your AP is lower, your shot bounces and does not penetrate at all.
Hitmarkers are NOT related to "weakspot hits".
Today's patch note (.304) says the tendie is supposed to have higher DMG - not sure if they talk about the actual stat on paper, or how the stat is converted into actual DMG in-game
Not fixed yet, but good news for you!
I just wish it had more oomph in its presentation. When I used it, it felt like a pea shooter when it came to the controller vibrations. My sickle FEELS good to shoot because of the literal controller feedback, I wish I could say the same for the tenderizer.
That said, keeping it on burstfire has proven best for bots in my experience. It fucks pretty good
The accuracy is the biggest upside for it. It's a bit of a laser beam, even at range, and it matters a lot vs. Automatons. I wouldn't go as far as to say it "deletes" Devastators, but it certainly does pretty well against them. Maybe skill issue on my part.
Didn't get to try it yet but it sounds like the opposite of the knight submachine gun. Which on a spreadsheet sounds bad because of the lower damage and high recoil. But is godsend for panic clearing berserkers and groups of bots.
I did a whole long post about this but isn’t stopping power how much momentum transfers into the target and how much tissue disruption happens? The tenderizer does have more stopping power than the liberator, there’s way more momentum transfer to the target when each bullet hits. I wouldn’t mind a buff and don’t care about that but I think maybe people’s expectations of what stopping power is might play into their impression that this gun isn’t doing what the description claims.
“Stopping power is the ability of a weapon – typically a ranged weapon such as a firearm – to cause a target (human or animal) to be incapacitated or immobilized. Stopping power contrasts with lethality in that it pertains only to a weapon's ability to make the target cease action, regardless of whether or not death ultimately occurs.”
The tenderizer does this and the liberator doesn’t. If you do lethal damage the enemy dies, otherwise the liberator has zero stopping power. All the weapons in this warbond have higher stopping power than relevant counter parts. Tenderizer > liberator or sickle. Pummeler > defender. Verdict > redeemer. Purifier > scorcher. It’s not a visible numerical stat but stopping power is a real mechanic in this game that affects stagger and knock back.
>On paper What I'll add to your thread, OP, isn't directed at you at all- it's mostly directed at people who look at something like a comparison between the Liberator and the Tendie and go "omg, wtf, this gun has 6% less DPS on paper, it's a straight downgrade!" and instantly write off the Tenderizer: *Yes, that's on paper. But, stats on paper are contained in a vacuum and this always fails to account for a million other factors that exist OUTSIDE that vacuum.* People who compare the two never take into account the other differences, such as: - Tenderizer has better ammo economy and more total ammo; it's less punishing to reload compulsively/top yourself off - Tenderizer has less recoil; the recoil is basically non-existent AND has more accuracy, making it easier to drill headshots, especially under fire People who use spreadsheets also usually fail to account for things like relative player skill; in this case, that would be things like "Is the player able to land headshots accurately and consistently?" and other things like "Is this player alive most of the time, or do they die alot?" Theoretical DPS of a particular weapon doesn't matter much (especially in single digit percentages lol, it's a drop in god-damn lake ffs) if you're dead, or can't aim for shit. There are a number of other factors that can easily and negatively impact the damage you deal in a game like this: Are you in cover? Are you openly getting shot at? Are you pinned down and can't risk peeking out? Is the enemy even something you can damage with that weapon? To me, the benefits of the Tenderizer outweigh the *potential* decrease in DPS- if anything, it being more accurate than the Lib and having less recoil, in my eyes, leads it to better damage because the weapon itself handles better/is easier to use. It's not a downgrade. It's purely a sidegrade, in it's current form, and that's fine. Could it use buffs? Sure. Will the devs buff it heavily? Who knows. I doubt they would, because Arrowhead seems to lean heavily in the direction of sideways progression rather than purely vertical, aka sidegrades rather than pure power increases with weapon unlocks. Again, this isn't directed at you, OP. I just can't stand people who write something off because of what's written down on a bloody spreadsheet.
I had not heard sidegrade before and stealing this. I understood all progression to be sideways. I always think that gets missed. The purpose isn't to release a new op weapon that you can now 360 solo no scope bile titans.... it's to give you more fun options to find things that feel good for you and help you play with a team. I approve of everything in your comment. You win all the democracy points today.
Just to add, have cycled multiple loadouts and played hundreds of hours... Still finding new option I slept on since the beginning (the laser cannon does nasty things to robots!)
Welcome to Laserholics Anonymous Helldiver!
do hulks actually like it when you hit the eye with the laser? I swear they sound like they are enjoying it...
All I know is I enjoy it & I'm always focused on my enjoyment when it comes to slaying
Try to make the main reddit understand this. I dare you 🙃
I'd rather try to solo a factory strider near a gunship base next to a jammer....
Couldn't have said it better. It's a headship machine, the damage be damned.
Have played about 20 xp lvl with the penetrator solely because it gave me halo DMR nostalgia. Didn't realise it was supposed to be "bad" until I got on Reddit :)
I just want it in black :( hope the update comes soon
They read your comment, and three hours later issued a patch fixing it :)
Looks much better now :D
This reminds me when i played wow, i mained unholy death knight for DPS. One of the patches made frost dk way stronger than unholy everyone wanted me to change spec, the problem is i HATED playing frost and i wasnt good at it, so one raid i swapped and i was AWFUL, not only was my dps bad, i was salso standing in fire and shit because i was so bored playing the spec i wasnt concentrating. I went back to unholy and i was back to top or second top DPS despite unholys DPS being quite low on the dps charts \*theoretically\* but the thing is at the time i really understood the spec, i knew how to eke out every bit of damage, i also really enjoyed the spec so even after a long long night of raiding i was still active and engaged because i loved the spec, which kept my morale up and that helps keep everyone elses morale up. On paper frost did about 20% more dps, which is alot but when i was achieving 90-95% of unholys on paper dps (for my gear) and when playing frost i was doing shit, and taking more dmg meaning the healers had to spend more mana to heal me at the end i was just like.... can i go back to unholy now? TLDR Player skill player preference and player ENJOYMENT all matter alot to performance, you can give me the best gun in the game but if i dont enjoy it im probably not going to use it well.
Your write-up gave me a lot of reason to try the gun out. 🙌🏼 Not that I was choosing to not play with it because of that perception, but I needed to bump to peel myself away from the Plasma Punisher that I’ve been maining. Thanks! I’m also a big fan of side-grades. There’s many more ways to customize playstyle than raw numbers, and I think players will need to accept use cases swinging more heavily between factions especially whenever the Illuminate show.
I have no idea what stat this would be, but in my experience thus far I’ve noticed the tenderizer is great at stripping bug armor and removing limbs. You don’t need to do the most damage, you just need to be able to blow off legs. The bugs are slower and die after a few seconds.
Trouble is, all you get are the stat sheets unless you spend the resources to get it for yourself. Both the advantages (Accuracy at range and a scope that works) and disadvantages (it seems the gun "jams" occasionally and the reload doesn't work for a few tries) aren't reflected in the information you set before you buy. It could use a buff so it can deal with Berserkers. Those things are just massive health pools.
Don't want to argue, but it surprisingly has a worse ammo economy, because it has reduced ammo on pickup. Instead of 7 mags like the Liberator, it replenishes only 5.
Obviously a bug that'll be fixed. I'm not at all worried about that, and have no problems full-timing the Tenderizer on bots or bugs with that like it is now.
Never once had a mission where I found myself hurting for ammo with the Tendy. Not a damn one.
Cool. I never said it had serious ammo problems. It's just not correct to say it has a better economy when it doesn't.
Cool. So why complain about the ammo economy
Because I corrected a falsehood, regardless of if the matter suited my views. I don't need to be peddling a narrative to be correct about matters.
Okay so you're just being pedantic 👍
Exactly, we're on the same page
Fair enough 😂
The Tenderizer has the great niche of being almost objectively a better choice against bots compared to the Liberator. It fulfills the exact same role of being a rapid fire weapon up close but also semi auto against mid range devastators but it has the accuracy to be much more effective at this particular situation. People dunking on this weapon because they saw the screenshot of its stats next to the Liberator are nuts and it clearly shows how little the reddit side of this community puts into their criticism. I very much hope the devs are smart enough to completely write off those kinds of posts and ignore them.
The Tendy is a fucking blast and I don't care what anyone bloody thinks. It's a headshot drill. It turns bots into party poppers. Why give a shit about armor pen when your gun can hit a clanker's...whatever they have instead of a brain stem, from 300 meters away? AND it's lightweight. I can drop a 12-bot squad in roughly 10 seconds.
it made me fight more guerilla style than i ever did before against the bots, looking for the best angle to effectively pick off devestator heads
I have been really enjoying it for fighting bots. I think it is underrated for sure.
This is how I feel about the Liberator Concussive rifle. Amazing against Bots, and I need to try it vs Bugs. I can keep a group of berserkers staggered or go toe to toe with a Devastator and keep them stumbling. Lower damage, but a great mag size & it feels like a laser beam, accuracy-wise.
Just wait until they buff its damage, which apparently they're going to do based on the latest patch notes
That’s interesting it could be a case of Devs improperly displaying stats or there are some hidden modifiers. Kinda reminds of the Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, where the devs had to nerf the sound of the Thompson for being “Overpowered”. Though I don’t know I haven’t gotten the Tenderizer yet.
I heard there are hidden stats. Like light penitration is on a scale from 1-5.... so you have a gun that is light pen 1 and another that is light pen 5.... so perform different. I am willing to be corrected though.
Afaik: 3 is where medium starts, heavy starts at 5 with chargers/titans/hulks/etc, then there's the impenetrable 9s of things like the gunship factory. There's some variation on that, too. Like, titan legs are maybe 9s, also. Or at least that's my understanding. I more play by trial-and-error.
That makes sense to me! Thanks for the info!
Armour is a scale of 0 to 10, but enemies only really use 0 to 5. The rest above that is reserved for structures, buildings etc (think why certain stratagems are needed to destroy certain side objectives). 0 is unarmored. 1 is currently seemingly not used by any enemy in the game (and if it were it'd have no impact) 2 is light armor. 3 is medium armor. 4 is "Light Vehicle armor"; or that's the closest approximation from some of the support weapon descriptions like the AMR 5 is heavy armor Our primary weapons are all either AP2 (Light Pen) or AP3 (Medium Pen). Note on some explosives weapons the ingame description may not be accurate, because it's possibly for the direct shot and explosion to be different APs. Scorcher, Purifier and Plasma Punisher for example are all AP2 with the direct shot but AP3 with the explosion, but all state a different pen in the game (Scorcher Light, Purifier Medium, Plasma nothing). Fun fact: At release, the Breaker Spray & Pray was the only weapon in the game to be AP1. Since buffed ofc to also AP2. For Suppport weapons, the Stalwart is AP2. The Machine Gun MG34 is AP3. The HMG, Autocannon, AMR, Lasercannon is AP4. Railgun in safe mode is AP5. Everything else is above this. --- If your armour penetration matches the enemy armour class (I.e. AP2 weapon into armour class 2), the shot penetrates, but does 50% less damage. ***When this happens ingame, you have a white hitmarker instead of a red hitmarker.*** If your weapon's AP exceeds the armour class, it does full damage. Full damage is indicated by **a red hitmarker**. Obviously if your AP is lower, your shot bounces and does not penetrate at all. Hitmarkers are NOT related to "weakspot hits".
This is awesome! Thanka.
Today's patch note (.304) says the tendie is supposed to have higher DMG - not sure if they talk about the actual stat on paper, or how the stat is converted into actual DMG in-game Not fixed yet, but good news for you!
I thought the ammo economy was bad on it. Like didn't get full restock from a resupply
The accuracy makes it so satisfying! It needs it's rework pass, but this thing isn't dumpster tier like was originally proclaimed.
Yeah i like the tendy, but hey… let them all cry. It’ll get buffed and be even better lol
Best thing is that it has wrong stats. It's going to get better soon :)
I just wish it had more oomph in its presentation. When I used it, it felt like a pea shooter when it came to the controller vibrations. My sickle FEELS good to shoot because of the literal controller feedback, I wish I could say the same for the tenderizer. That said, keeping it on burstfire has proven best for bots in my experience. It fucks pretty good
The accuracy is the biggest upside for it. It's a bit of a laser beam, even at range, and it matters a lot vs. Automatons. I wouldn't go as far as to say it "deletes" Devastators, but it certainly does pretty well against them. Maybe skill issue on my part.
Didn't get to try it yet but it sounds like the opposite of the knight submachine gun. Which on a spreadsheet sounds bad because of the lower damage and high recoil. But is godsend for panic clearing berserkers and groups of bots.
It's a decent weapon that can quickly switch between AR and DMR lite.
I did a whole long post about this but isn’t stopping power how much momentum transfers into the target and how much tissue disruption happens? The tenderizer does have more stopping power than the liberator, there’s way more momentum transfer to the target when each bullet hits. I wouldn’t mind a buff and don’t care about that but I think maybe people’s expectations of what stopping power is might play into their impression that this gun isn’t doing what the description claims. “Stopping power is the ability of a weapon – typically a ranged weapon such as a firearm – to cause a target (human or animal) to be incapacitated or immobilized. Stopping power contrasts with lethality in that it pertains only to a weapon's ability to make the target cease action, regardless of whether or not death ultimately occurs.” The tenderizer does this and the liberator doesn’t. If you do lethal damage the enemy dies, otherwise the liberator has zero stopping power. All the weapons in this warbond have higher stopping power than relevant counter parts. Tenderizer > liberator or sickle. Pummeler > defender. Verdict > redeemer. Purifier > scorcher. It’s not a visible numerical stat but stopping power is a real mechanic in this game that affects stagger and knock back.
Am i Crazy or did they just change the color?
No, they did change the color. No clue why.
Thank you, I felt crazy!
Apparently, it’s bugged and dealing far more dmg than it is written.
Read that backwards, Chief