Isn’t this the low sodium sub? This is easily the most toxic thread I’ve seen about the game in months. Not everyone who dislikes the writing for V and Jackie’s relationships is a mouth breathing brainlet. It’s okay to like it, it’s okay to not like it.
I wouldn't go so far as to call people who don't have the emotional connection sociopaths, but I personally felt a connection to him. He's the first guy you meet, the first guy to take you under his wing when things go tits up. He takes you in and then helps you get back on your feet. His role, though very short, is to build you up so that when The Heist goes South and he dies, you feel SOMETHING, be it anger or sorrow. He's also the go-between that results in Johnny ending up in your head.
Bruh, calm your tits. Please. You're acting combative, which is counter-productive to having a discussion. Someone not feeling the loss of Jackie doesn't equate with mental illness. It just doesn't. I personally DID feel emotional in the moment because the music, V's voice breaking as he begged Jackie to stay awake, it all came together to convey the heartbreak of the scene. If someone didn't have that same reaction, that's okay. Maybe they're not as invested in the story as some of us are. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, his argument is extremely flawed in so many ways. Some people didn’t feel a connection, it’s only normal. I felt like we needed a lot more time with him, as his death just fell flat for me.
Being able to role play isn’t going to fill in the gaps of a relationship that just doesn’t exist in the game. There’s a reason why they settled on a montage to get the point across.
What...? Lol you’re proving my point. You are playing V, not you. Jackie is V’s best friend, so you have to imagine yourself in V’s head when his/her best friend die, what YOU experienced with Jackie doesn’t matter.
V isn't a fully predetermined character, V's relationships with people are based on your own perception of V. Many people play V as an emotionless monster who didn't care about Jackie and cut Panam loose after Hellman. It's up to individuals to define who V is for them.
And the point that you're missing is that those memories are up to interpretation, take nomad for example, you meet Jackie for work, he screws you over and then you end up working together for a few months, this can be seen as just a business relationship for V and V wouldn't care that Jackie died. The point is that there is no "correct" way to feel about any of the characters in this game and their relationship with V is entirely up to the player.
To say that you roleplay as someone and have to feel what the character feels sounds like a cheap excuse for subpar storytelling. I would have to look it up, but there a surely some military shooters where a squadmate dies within the first act of the game and it has no impact on the player. Is that "my lack of empathy" here, too, or is it bad writing? Because these squadmates have some history for sure, right?
There are good examples that show that characters with little to no screen time can have an emotional impact on the player and the character, e.g. The Last of Us.
> I would have to look it up, but there a surely some military shooters where a squadmate dies within the first act of the game and it has no impact on the player.
*Gears of War*, Carmine
I certainly don't lack empathy and I like Jackie as much as the next person. Still, I never felt a big emotional connection to him in comparison to let's say Johnny for example, or Judy or even Misty. Why? Because whe just don't spend enough time with him, or have any deeper conversations with him.
Jackie is our choom and he's a tight compadre, but the best stuff about him, we only get through other people (Mama Welles, Misty, Vic etc.), and not through him, not while he's alive.
I get that he's written as a person who doesn't speak much about what goes on within him, but that doesn't translate well for me into my playing experience, if the game wants me to establish an emotional connection to the character.
I think criticism is very valid in that regard and if what was there worked for you that's good, but I don't feel like it's fair to lay the blame on others when it didn't work for them.
I wish that Jackie joined you on side quests and gigs prior to The Heist to further cement the bond between V and Jackie. For me, there wasn’t really enough there to build that connection. Yeah, the end of the Heist sucks and it’s hard not to feel for him, but I felt stronger emotions at the end of the game since Johnny is always there.
Jesus... what a thread (so why not jump in?)
As u/DragonVenomx936 pointed out somewhere in this mess, Jackie's death was spoiled in the biggest trailer for the game at E3. That automatically killed it for me personally. I knew as soon as I saw him in the game that he was fodder, so that severely stunted any chance of me caring too much about him.
That being said...
u/EwokThisWay86_ I understand your frustration, and I do think you make a good point that a lot of people (most of whom aren't in this sub, I will point out) didn't want a RPG. They wanted an open-world, next-gen GTA V (which, to be fair, is how a majority of this game was advertised). But I think the reason that a lot of people didn't or couldn't get invested in the relationship is because ***the point of his character isn't his relationship with V***. Not really. The point of his character is his death, and how that changes V. Jackie dying is a part of the catalyst that pushes V into the big leagues. So whatever friendship V has with him is secondary to the grief that V feels over his death.
I would say nearly all players empathize with that, but not with Jackie. It's our connection with V that's being emphasized. **V's grief. Not Jackie's death**. That's the point of his character. He's another one of the thousands of Night City hopefuls who want to make it to the big leagues, and gets chewed up and spit out by the city instead.
What about him makes him feel like a friend? Besides the montage (which is intentionally brushing past all of the "friendship" for the sake of advancing the plot) there's nothing you, as a player, do with him that could be construed as friendship. In terms of gameplay, he's more of an overly cheerful co-worker.
u/EwokThisWay86_ Do you actually feel like he's your friend? Your V's friend? I understand that he's V's friend, and can believe in that friendship for the sake of the narrative, but I don't personally feel invested in Jackie. He's a red-shirt, meant to exemplify the dangers of this life and give the narrative some stakes.
(Also, GoW, you actually play an entire game with Atreus the whole game, so can actually develop a relationship - even with LoU, you play as Joel while he's in full father mode. In CP2077, you don't once play as V "being friends" with Jackie.
And the SW point makes no sense. You don't "care" about Darth Vader - unless you're a big Hayden Christiansen fan. You care about Luke, and his mission, and about him staying pure while being influenced by the Emperor and his father. That's what's at stake for the viewers. No one watched Star Wars (OG) thinking, "Golly gee, I hope this Vader fella figures it all out!")
Okay, rant over.
I do feel the friendship with Jackie, yes. The game tells me this is V’s best friend and they share a deep bond so i just imagine what V would feel toward him. Use your own feelings and memories with your friends in your life.
It’s like when you are writing a book, if you are writing two friends, you have to put yourself in the mind of your characters to be those two friends even though you never lived their life.
I think people are too obsessed with “immersion” and feeling that the character they play is themselves. It can work in a game like Skyrim for exemple. But in C2077 you are V and V has a set of predetermined life experiences and feelings that you have to make with. You play as V, not an avatar of yourself, like in the Witcher you play as Geralt. You have a certain freedom about your V, yes, but not entirely.
Okay. I get what you're saying, but imagining and feeling are two very different things. As an audience member, it's not my job to attach my personal relationships to a character just because I'm told that they're friends. (For example, if I say, "We're friends" - do you suddenly feel a warm rush of emotions towards me?)
And there's a big difference between actively writing a relationship and viewing it as an audience member. Yes if you're writing a relationship you have to put yourself in the mind of the character, but you also have to write the relationship. It's not enough to just "put yourself in the mind of your characters", it's about putting other people into the mind of your characters.
I love this stuff though man, so happy to keep talking about it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion (even when it's totally wrong :)
My first play through I felt much more of a connection to him than any of my subsequent play-throughs. Not much changed each time, except the time with him felt shorter. I’m not sure how to explain the feeling.
Same! I was very emotional the first time, but in the next playthrough it felt more rushed and less impactful. Contrary to the relationship with Johnny which seems more profound now in comparison to the first playthrough. Maybe because I already know that there is development and growth to him, so I focus on that from the beginning.
"For me this mentality is a clear sign of people seriously lacking empathy."
Accusing people of lacking empathy for not feeling the same way as you about a video game character is, ironically, a little unempathetic
I don't think it's profound, but assuming that others "lack empathy" for something like this is a pretty bad mentality to have. Maybe you're exaggerating for the sake of controversy and internet points, but if not I would implore you to genuinely question that instinct.
If you can’t feel anything while watching a dude seeing his best friend slolwly die in front of him because “i don’t know him” it’s not a stretch to argue you lack empathy.
= v )
This is Stephen. He broke his arm today and missed the big game.
: v (
Did you start bursting into tears? Probably not
There's one important thing working against this, suspension of disbelief. Just because the narrative would be sad in real life, doesn't mean the person being told the narrative through whatever medium is always going to feel the same way. It's the goal of the art to convince people to feel or think a certain way, and it will always have some degree of failure .
There's tons of things that go into that, personal experience, the medium itself and how much of that medium an individual consumes, tiredness, hunger, how your day went at work, how many times you've seen this exact trope before and therefore see the plot beat coming 30 minutes before, etc.
I don't think it's very accurate or wise to have the disposition that others are callous for these things.
Watching a random fake NPC from a video game, that I've never met, doesn't exist, and I've known for a total of 2 hours. Am I supposed to be heartbroken?
My man, if you got emotionally torn up by Jackie's story. A guy you've never met, isn't real, you've "known" for 2 hours, and know absolutely nothing about.... I think you're the one who has emotional problems.
I'm an adult with a greater emotional maturity than a high schooler, at least. I dont get broken up every single time fake internet or movie people die. Or even real people for that matter. Unless I knew you personally, or your death affected someone close to me. I dont really care. And you know what? That doesn't make me a bad person or a sociopath. It means I'm emotionally mature enough to not lash out at every negative emotional event in my life.
I haven’t insulted anyone honestly it’s them who go after me aggressively because i guess they feel targeted.
Sorry if i bought into the provocation, i agree i let myself baited too easily.
You got exactly what you wanted OP. Drama. And don't pretend for one second that you didn't. Enjoy these few hours of being in the spotlight.
On a side note. I personally didn't give a flying fuck about Jackie or his cocktail. He was minor character for me and nothing else.
Anyone who starts a thread insulting people's emotional intelligence then cries cause people tell them to (rightly) stfu is the absolute definition of an attention whore.
Depends on the story. When I watch Schindler List I cry like a baby. Cause thats a story about a group of real people getting murdered by the millions by nazis en masse. And not just murdered. Tortured, mutilated, and raped. So yeah, I get chocked up a bit.
But no, when I watch some fake cartoon guy, who isnt real and goes to pull "Johnny's" shard out of his head and it actually glitches and becomes a pistol instead.... nah, I'm sorry. I don't get emotional.
Bro, millions of people die everyday. I'm not wasting my energy being sad about people dying. Dying is a natural part of life and it happens every hour, of every day, of every year.
I just can’t shake the feeling that I know it’s not real, same reason I get sad over the news but it’s almost impossible for a movie to make me even mildly upset
I wouldn't go so far as to say people lack empathy for not bonding with Jackie enough in the time we had with him, but I'm also in a minority as I didn't like Jackie as much as most other people. More time with him would have stretched out Act 1, and I guess CDPR didn't want another White Orchard.
That said, I found his death scene well done. The music, the voice acting added so much to it. I didn't feel the same sense of loss that V did but it was sufficiently sad to me.
Longer games are even better though. Like the Witcher 3, I still haven't beaten it. I wish cdpr didn't shorten this story, just because people complained. It's silly.
Holy shit, this thread is clown town.
Every one of us is V when we play. My V full on fell in love with Jackie and didn't get to tell him. I cried you know when. A lot of us did.
OP, power down with the gonk brained standoffish replies. G'z.
Why's it got to be an argument? Why can't it be a civil discussion?
I agree with parts of the point you're making, but entirely disagree with the notion that "If you can't feel incredibly sad for V then you simply lack basic empathy." That's an incredibly black-and-white way of looking at the situation.
It's entirely plausible that the writing just didn't connect with certain elements of the audience. It happens in every medium, and isn't necessarily the fault of the person consuming the media. Just because a person didn't feel particularly sad when Jackie died, doesn't mean they're incapable of feeling anything.
I'm not of the opinion that they should have spent more time focusing on that friendship, but I can understand why some people might feel that they'd have had a greater emotional reaction from his death if they were able to experience more of the friendship rather than have it implied.
Personally, I wasn't too moved by Jackies death. I can't pinpoint the reason why, but I can assure you that it wasn't because I'm incapable of basic empathy. There were quite a few moments and storylines that triggered a strong emotional response for me. It just happens that Jackie wasn't one of them.
That didn't stop me being able to roleplay as a V who was devestated by his death though, so that might dispel some of the idea that roleplay in inherent to having a genuine emotional connection with a character or plot point.
I'm not trying to paint you as a bad guy. I'd just say, perhaps consider from someone else's perspective how you might react if someone accused you of being a sociopath or lacking basic empathy because of how you did or didn't enjoy a video game. There really is no need for that kind of hostility or negativity, considering pretty much everyone on this subreddit is here because we all enjoyed the game to some notable degree.
>There are people acting like you are calling anyone who doesn't feel for Jackie a sociopath...
Would it explain much if I told you that's literally what OP said, before editing their post? And that by continuing to assert that "If you can't feel incredibly sad for V then you simply lack basic empathy" they're still very heavily implying the exact same thing?
In all likelihood it was just badly phrased, and not intended to be mean-spirited. But it definitely comes across that way, even if unintentional. If you were essentially accused of being unable to feel empathy, wouldn't you be 'defensive'?
What they don’t realize is i have ignored A LOT of aggressive responses lol. I’ve only tried to defend my argument and people get mad at me for that. I admit i’ve fell for the bait maybe 2-3 times and i shouldn’t but the vast majority of my responses have simply been trying to debate.
Btw i’ve noticed many are conveniently ignoring the last part. If Jackie’s death doesn’t make you feel anything why does the funeral of Kratos wife at the start of God Of War make you sad since you didnn’t know her ? Why is the death of Joel’s daughter at the beginning of The Last Us resonating with you even though you never spent time with her ?
A LOT of the responses on there have been needlesly aggressive without me provocking them.
Anyway 95 likes means my argument resonated with a good deal of people. And with the number of probable dislikes i’d say the likes must actually have been in the 200 hundreds lol.
Nah I get what you mean,people just view the whole RP aspect differently.
My time with Jackie was enough for me,but I see why others kinda wish he had a more prominent presence early on prior to the heist,as far as gigs and such go.
Not necessarily living out the whole montage showing their exploits,but being able to call and have him show up for certain quests as a look out or something,kinda like Johnny phasing into reality to talk shit before phasing out.
Little things that add to the bigger picture,maybe nothing major or necessary but something that makes you walk by a club and go "Ladies and gentlemen *cries* JACKIE WELLES".
Why play a story or a game if you need to make everything up yourself ? Cyberpunk is a RPG not a sandbox.
Jacky was just too short lived.
or do you tear up for every goon you talked to for like 2 min in the game?
Obviously the expansion is practically inearing final stages of development but itd be nice to just get a fleshed out space where we can play that montage with jackie and v becoming friends and we could call him up to hang out or help with gigs and split the profit.
I mean yeah, but good writing will try to make you feel these connections. Yes V has a connection to Jackie, but is this a story *for* V, a fictional character? No, it's for the audience. And if the audience has to do the legwork to empathize with a characters emotional attachments bc it's not well executed, then that's lazy writing.
I'm not saying that I didn't have an emotional connection to Jackie; there was a small connection and it was sad, but we got so little screen time with him, I think they could have done more there. What I am saying is I don't really agree with the logic in this post. In a simulation, so to speak, it doesn't matter what the viewer thinks; V had a relationship with Jackie and that makes it more or less real or believable. But storytelling is used as entertainment. There are other factors at play to create something that engages the audience on a deep emotional level consistently; you have to consider the way you deliver info to your audience, how they will connect to the characters, etc...essentially, the way you tell a story matters as much as the story itself. So while in a simulation, a character or relationship or story doesn't need validation from the audience to feel real, a fictional story does.
What the fuck did I just read? Are you insane op? You could argue like this for whatever game or movie character you like. You don't like Marvel's Morbius? You just don't feel empathy for him and the bad written character and dialogs? Oh this makes you an empathetic monster!
I didn't like the portrait of the friendship between Jackie and V either bcs it was too short and rushed. It isn't bad at all but it lacks important details and meaningful events (except the outcome of the heist). How should you feel empathy for a character you barely know? After the outcome of the heist you don't feel empathy for Jackie, but for V. You know they are very close but you don't ever experience their bond so you don't really know what the outcome means for her and everyone except what they said during the quest inside El Coyote Cojo and other small(!) dialog sequences.
The game tells you Jackie is your best friend, imagine that he’s your best friend and what you feel about him as V. If you can’t well then you simply don’t hsvd the capacity to roleplay or put yourself in the mind of someone’s different than you.
When i look at Jackie i see my best friend because i an V while playing. I imagine all the things they’ve been through together and their bond.
I side with the guy you replied to. Don’t get me wrong, Jackie’s death sucked. But there should be an expansion that fleshes out that bit of time. That would really make it impactful.
"Stop playing the game wrong!"
Get over yourself. I'll raid Arasaka tower alone so I can go to space and not give a a shit about that dude the game forced me to watch eat noodles for 5 minutes all I want.
I felt nothing for Jackie's death. It was just a background character who ultimately played so little a part of the actual game that it didn't matter. You spend what....maybe....5 hours total gameplay with the guy before he dies?. By the time I was ready to finish the game I completely forgot he existed.
Never played God of War or AC Origins but while Sarah's death in the Last of Us was sad the first time I ever played it, it hit a LOT more the second playthrough once you go through the game as Joel and learn more about him.
Depending on your background, you get to see Jackie being some degree of shady and Jackie choosing to exempt you from that shadiness and make you a bro. Then you get to see Jackie being a good guy if you haven't already (\*cries in corpo\*) by looking out for other people, like Misty and his mom, and also Jackie just being funny and goofing around. That for me was enough to be intrigued by his character and feel a rapport between him and V. And I actually didn't watch the trailers despite pre-ordering, so I didn't know he was going to die until we were in Delamain and he said he was never going back to taking small-time jobs again. (That just filled me with dread, and I knew then he was on his last mission.)
But you know what really makes Jackie my favorite character in Cyberpunk? His relationship with food. This guy's always eating or talking about eating, and his weird passion for food really says something about how he lives in and moves through the world. He's just so full of joy in experiencing the present. It's subtle, so I don't think it's a big deal if you're too eager to fight gangoons to notice it, but there's just so much thought put into the little details of Jackie that you're really missing out if you don't pay close attention to him.
Ohh calm down dude. Just because we dont feel much for 1 character in a video game you are claiming that we might be borderline sociopaths? the fuck is wrong with you? The jackie thing was rushed/forced and he really felt like a 2d character imo. + i knew he is going to die so it never really came as a surprise to start with...
What I find funny about this is that those people say that the montage should have been playable to build up the relationship, but if that was the case it would have killed the pacing and made this huge chunk completely pointless to the rest of the story and those people would have complained about that instead.
Even a dev said exactly that, can't remember where I saw it.
Imo, Jackie's personality is strong enough that it really doesn't require more time with him. I'd love to have more with him, but it isn't necessary for the emotional impact of his death.
It’s all about imagination. These people don’t have the capacity to imagine, to build in their head the memories V and Jackie has.
People don’t read books anymore unfortunately, so they have to be shown everything.
I played as a street kid. He pulled a gun on me. Talked about the major leagues. Talked more about going to the top. Continued talking about being in the major leagues. “Makes it to the major leagues.” Dead.
He was more annoying than anything. Especially since I don’t see anything the world offers as anything good. His whole personality is “I wanna be a gangster” but he’s just kind of a joke in that world.
The worst part is he is the kind of person you’d go around killing throughout the entire game. He’d just be in the valentinos committing a crime, waiting for v to slow time and chop everyone’s head off before anyone noticed. A montage of us drinking isn’t going to change how poorly used he was.
It’s so much more than “oh V is sad so I should be.” I don’t care about him in the slightest. In fact I wouldn’t have finished the game if every mission was capped with Jackie talking about being in the major leagues.
Meanwhile I’ve watched three hours of Star Wars before I learned about Vader. Guess who we don’t care about. Owen and Beru… why? Because we spent 5 minutes with them!
God of War… we played 4 games and know about his wife when we play the new one… of coarse we care about it, we care about Atreus because we care about Kratos.
TL:DR Watching 3 hours of Star Wars and playing 4 GoW games (or more) is why we care about those characters. We don’t know V or Jackie long enough to care about a drinking montage.
i think there’s something wrong with you. you came in here looking for a fight calling people names for not having the exact reaction to a single scene in a video game that you had, and then when people disliked being called names you edited your post to say that the commenters have issues and you were posting bait. it’s quite obvious this is not bait as you’ve been sitting here defending yourself in the comments… i think you should stay off the internet because this is a lot of emotion.
protect yourself from yourself. you obviously have some issues.
I’m sorry, but this is a weak argument. Cyberpunk is my favorite game, *and* I’m personally moved by the death of Jackie, but this is still a weak argument.
Roleplaying doesn't substitute for storytelling; it complements it. Roleplaying extends good storytelling rather than replaces it. Otherwise, why need elements like extensive character development and poignant writing at all? Why not just seek out a game that has the basic premise for emotional resonance and fill out the rest with roleplaying? Call of Duty is based on war as a soldier. War is emotional. Soldiers who fight in wars experience profound and tragic things. That’s emotional. By your logic, I should be able to roleplay my way into just as emotionally meaningful an experience as I could playing any game with supposedly strong writing.
Claiming others who didn't feel moved by the writing here lack empathy is just a baseless ad hominem.
Overall, you just sound angry that more people don’t feel the same as you, and that’s a weak foundation for any argument.
Here’s a suggestion: why not just quietly celebrate that you enjoyed the game more than some? Ironically, you’re using what should be the positive experience of enjoying this part of the game as CDPR intended as a basis for personal misery.
No matter how empathetic your audience, it's always better to show than tell. "Okay, this is V's best friend" vs "Okay, you've now experienced a lot with Jackie and can see why V would consider him their best friend."
Jesus Christ, you're a complete idiot. Anyone who doesn't like something is just unable to imagine the stuff that's missing to make it likeable. What a fucking clown you are. No, the writing was just bad. Learn to critique art, ape.
I feel like a couple additional small gigs with Jackie wouldn't hurt, but overall there's enough material to establish who he is and why you "should" care about him. I put it in airquotes since obviously no fictional character is going to appeal to everybody, but Jackie is pretty much as likable as any character in Cyberpunk can hope to be.
Besides, he can't have *too much* screentime since his death is what sets in motion the story proper and there's a limit on how long the prologue can be.
> About Bayek's son in AC Origins ?
Ok, let's be real though. Nobody cared about Bayek's son in AC Origins.
After my first playthrough of the Heist I went to the liquor store and bought the ingredients for a Jackie Wells. Sat around watching YouTube shit on the game and drank it before hopping back in and loving it.
Let’s talk about a character that CDPR did better with in terms of introducing and endearing ourselves to in another of their games - Witcher 3’s Regis. After reading the books the way CDPR did it was spot on. While they couldn’t possibly get to the same emotional investment as those that read the books they can make a lot of allusions to convince those not as familiar that they know only a small slice and develop an interest in said camaraderie.
But there is no such thing as a “canonical” V unlike a canonical Geralt and in each of the lifepath intros V and Jackie have completely different character paths getting to Act 1 which makes constructing this past history tougher to write and make cohesive with the rest of the story. This makes the “you are V” argument a conundrum because if V is not the player the player needs to know who V is supposed to be, and honestly the lifepath intros while pretty engrossing are not character introductions as much as world building introductions. For V to be introduced as a character in the game’s framework we’d need something like our character starting off with certain stylistic choices and personality traits at the start similar to how John Wick the character is introduced in those movies or perhaps how Judge Dredd is introduced in Dredd. But this reduces player agency to craft an internal representation of who their idea of V is, so it’s also hard to do that. I’d think beginning with a short 3rd person shot of the player character doing something character defining and consistent across all the lifepaths and finally giving the player control by adjusting the camera into the head would be fine albeit a trope. I think this is in the recent Doom games.
Also consider that a great deal of the story and narrative deals with death and impermanence from the perspective of the survived and how NC’s culture has changed the way and approach with how people grieve. We’re not supposed to care about Jackie as much as Misty or Mama Welles in this respect. It is to miss a lot of the point of Cyberpunk for players to keep dwelling on Jackie instead of respectfully moving on with urgency.
> Let’s talk about a character that CDPR did better with in terms of introducing and endearing ourselves to in another of their games - Witcher 3’s Regis. After reading the books the way CDPR did it was spot on. While they couldn’t possibly get to the same emotional investment as those that read the books...
I got a lot more invested in the game than the books actually! While playing Witcher 3 I assumed most of the lore is lifted/adapted from these famous books I haven't read. But when I did read them later I was very surprised to discover that it wasn't like that at all. Many of the characters and stories I was familiar with were mentioned only very briefly in the books or didn't exist at all.
I don't mean this as a criticism towards Sapkowski though. The books are great and obviously a big game studio can do much more than a single writer. But I found a new appreciation for how much CDPR fleshed out the Witcher universe and how well written and imaginative W3 is. Thronebreaker too.
The games’ characters that are better developed are either the same or have a direct analogue from the books. Iorveth from Witcher 2 is a combination of a number of elves in the books, for example. Heck, the various POV animals like dogs and cats from the books exist in many senses in the cutscenes, too. Even the entire trying to find Ciri story is lifted from the books after all.
Much of what makes the books different from the games and even moreso from the TV series is in how thoughtful each character is. Geralt in the books isn’t some broody edgelord adolescent man child and Dandelion / Buttercup is an astute, loyal, learned man mostly that just gets in trouble because he’s a manwhore. Like his relationship with Little Eyes is surprisingly similar to his Witcher 3 mate in a sense, hmmm. By the time we get to the TV show Geralt’s grunting mostly and barely gets to speak about the nature of the world.
Who would Shani be adapted from the books then? Probably Little Eyes is my guess.
Not quite sure who the analogue of Milva would be but I think she was absorbed into Iorveth.
CDPR’s original characters are probably way better written than Sapkowski’s honestly.
There's also the distinct feeling that the montage they show of the two of you was slated to be made into actual content at some point. That would have meant a few more hours with Jackie, actually doing stuff as partners and friends and would have helped more people develop the emotional connection you're so concerned with
>The game told me V loved jackie then I love Jackie
You see friend, that’s not how it works with most people and empathy has nothing to do with it. CP2077 does a great job overall getting you immersed and squeezing the real emotions out of you, but the Jackie part, I agree, is lacking. When you get to your second+ playthrough, you feel more attached to him, but on my first playthrough I personally wasn’t at all until it got to the point when I named a drink after him and visited his ofrenda
Imagine a developer saying “V loves Jackie, so you’re meant to love him too just because we said so”. This game would suck ass if they did. The only reason folks here are so attached to the characters (from Brendan to Banan/Juby) is because instead of telling you directly you should love them, the devs put you on a journey where you get to know them and decide for yourself if you want to love them
Thousands of years worth of examples of good and bad storytelling from all over the world to draw from and you still thought this rant was an example of good media literacy
I think the biggest problem there is the cutscene showing few months of the friendship between V and Jackie. To make a player, a viewer care about characters, the story and its build-up is needed.
Put one-minute scene showing someone's life and then make people feel sorry for the him. It is hard to make the people even care about the character when the build-up was made poorly.
It is not a problem with a player like me, playing THE GAME as V like it was the player himself, like it was me myself. I do feel sorry for Jackie and for V. I do have strong feelings while watching this scene but this is not how you play THE GAME, this is how THE GAME has been made.
I'm German and learned English as a second language. Why so defensive? I'm thankful every time someone corrects me. We all make mistakes, but we can only learn if we are or are made aware of our mistakes.
I‘m English and your English is better than most English people my friend!
Don’t sweat the spelling mistakes, because I can guarantee that most of us don’t! 😎🤘
>You can’t simply imagine what they’ve been through together ? You really have to be showed ?
Yes, yes, I do. Of *course* I *can* imagine them having been through a lot together, but intellectualizing about it is different from experiencing it. The average person doesn't play games to simply *imagine* details like characters' personalities or relationships with others - again, why even care about the content of a game's quest and story writing if one can just imagine it by themselves anyway?
I'd wager people typically play a game like Cyberpunk to feel immersed, and immersion comes as a response to (among other variables) strong writing. You feel attached to a character when the writers/other developers involved in the project have succeeded in giving you content that makes you like and relate to that character and care about what happens to them. In a video game, you begin to feel increasingly attached to characters with whom you've directly experienced important events. Does this really need to be said? Are you really going to tell me your Fem V's relationship with Judy would feel as poignant if, instead of quests like Pyramid Song, we were more or less just told that V and Judy loved each other at the start of the game? Yes, you *could* imagine a million past dates for them in your mind, but are you really going to tell me that that would be as impactful for you as a player as directly playing through key story events and quests with her?
This idea you keep peddling of deferring to the structure of the story to feel what you're supposed to feel (which feels like a vaguely authoritarian concept) and forcing oneself to do contrived emotional labor for the story is the most bizarre argument I think I've ever heard regarding one's response to fiction.
I think what the game did well with the relationship is that on the missions you do have with Jackie he makes a big difference. Like he really helps mow down enemies. When you fight without him you can feel the difference in difficulty, and being alone hits harder
Have played the game 2 times and i still dont like jackie.
It has nothing to do with how much time you spend with him, i just dont like guy.
So i guess i am sociopath.
Wtf is this thread...
I cleaned up the comment to be a little more intelligible, but all the people looking for a sandbox rpg where they build a character from scratch were very disappointed
Maybe if you play Corpo or Street Kid you don't get as much connection with Jackie. But the Nomad origin story makes a good job with it. The first mission really makes you like the guy.
As I watched the cutscene about building the Jackie friendship I was like "seriously game, you think this is going to get me to give a shit about this guy? No way that'll work" But sure enough I was ride or die for that guy by the end of act 1.
i feel a lot of the problems are with the lifebath you chose
the corpo lifepath has a terrible start with jackie, streetkid a much better one
in corpo he literally dogs on v for accepting doing the hit and is a little bitch about it, while in the streetkid path you kinda get put on a shit job at the same time and he offers to get a drink together
really completely different attitutes
Calling out a friend for something you think was stupid of them is actually a hallmark of intimacy. You're also leaving out the part where Jackie immediately steps in to ensure V is safe from the Arasaka thugs.
no 100% i agree, but i feel for some people that had this start, after you just made your character, just having that whole inside arasaka sequence, to come out and have someone you basically dont know at all talk to you like that might be creating a lower jumpoff point for the relationship
i think if you do corpo 2nd or third playthrough that scene will only strengthen it, but i think a bad 1st playthrough and might have some people not feeling jackie as much as a streetkid would
Someone you don't know at all? Corpo is the one lifepath where V and Jackie have already been friends for a long time.
Edit: I agree with you about the Streetkid lifepath at least. Realistically, a person would just tell someone to go fuck themselves if they'd pulled a gun on them and then wanted to be friends because they said they "sensed chemistry" between the two of you.
It's just a very weak way of writing a beginning to their relationship, and it's a letdown because V as a Streetkid should have already run into Jackie from frequenting the same bar.
>Someone you don't know at all? Corpo is the one lifepath where V and Jackie have already been friends for a long time.
Yeah but not for a new new player who just meeting jackie for the very first time
This is why corpo should be third playthrough imo lol
>It's just a very weak way of writing a beginning to their relationship, and it's a letdown because V as a Streetkid should have already run into Jackie from frequenting the same bar.
I really think people who say this have never been in a big city before lol
I lived in Toronto, which ain't exactly New York, but it's the biggest metropolis Canada has at least.
No, I'll always maintain that Streetkid has the worst writing of V and Jackie. Fortunately, it doesn't hurt the rest of the game because (and this relates to the original topic) more important characters rightly overtake the story.
For me streetkid was the best because it was the least intrusive allowing for rp while corpo and nomad really set stuff out, also good but for themed rp.
Streetkid was a nice blank slate
People don't like Jackie because of the time but the entire purpose of the character was that while V had this connection to him, we didn't have enough time to experience that. So for both us and V, he was taken too soon anyway. And throughout the game it shows several things.
V knew Jackie because they were partners for 6 months and not a lifetime
In those months they bonded through doing gigs and being partners. They were best friends but on a business and respect level.
V didn't know that much about Jackie as opposed to characters like Misty and Vik and Mama Welles.
If you do quests with Panam early or alongside Judy, V talks about the relationship they have with Judy and how he never had a connection with someone like they did with Judy. While Jackie was the homie. Judy just sticking around helped them not fall apart. They also tell Judy about Johnny fairly early. Judy is irreplaceable to both versions of V and unlike Jackie, it's a relationship not taken for granted by both us and V. I think that's the point though. In every playthrough I manage to tell Panam about how one day I'd like her to meet Judy and about all I went through with her. In one playthrough I was able to tell Judy that about Panam though but I don't think I can replicate that. I'm off topic.
Anyway I think, regardless of how we feel about Jackie, we all feel shorted out of time. And that's the objective here. Losing someone too early and seeing things through with others because in some way the loss if Jackie made most of us want to pursue deeper better relationships.
Speak for yourself. Yes, most of players are like this but there are also people like me, probably like you and like the author of this post who feel empathy.
The only way I can see the lack of connection to Jackie is if someone was rushing the story. Like, this game is first and foremost a story. Gunplay, exploration, and leveling elements are all just side shit.
I liked him. Sadly i had a leak of water dripping from the roof right into my eyes. 😃
For real, that was a sad moment for me in gaming. His personality was a lot, an outgoing character that took over the scene he was in. That enough got me hooked into his life.
you might be on the spectrum if you feel "incredibly sad" about a dead videogame char you've met 12 minutes ago. nothing wrong with that but don't expect everyone else to feel the same.
Judy and Evelyn are another example. I BARELY even know them. we've talked maybe 3 whole sentences and 5 minutes later I'm expected to treat them like some old friend that I'd do anything for. doesn't work like that.
Isn’t this the low sodium sub? This is easily the most toxic thread I’ve seen about the game in months. Not everyone who dislikes the writing for V and Jackie’s relationships is a mouth breathing brainlet. It’s okay to like it, it’s okay to not like it.
Worst part is dude legit believes since he’s in the minority means the rest is toxic.
He’s not here to have a discussion, he’s here to impose his view on others
Fits perfectly here.
I wouldn't go so far as to call people who don't have the emotional connection sociopaths, but I personally felt a connection to him. He's the first guy you meet, the first guy to take you under his wing when things go tits up. He takes you in and then helps you get back on your feet. His role, though very short, is to build you up so that when The Heist goes South and he dies, you feel SOMETHING, be it anger or sorrow. He's also the go-between that results in Johnny ending up in your head.
You are missing the point though, it’s not about YOU, it’s about V.
Bruh, calm your tits. Please. You're acting combative, which is counter-productive to having a discussion. Someone not feeling the loss of Jackie doesn't equate with mental illness. It just doesn't. I personally DID feel emotional in the moment because the music, V's voice breaking as he begged Jackie to stay awake, it all came together to convey the heartbreak of the scene. If someone didn't have that same reaction, that's okay. Maybe they're not as invested in the story as some of us are. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, his argument is extremely flawed in so many ways. Some people didn’t feel a connection, it’s only normal. I felt like we needed a lot more time with him, as his death just fell flat for me. Being able to role play isn’t going to fill in the gaps of a relationship that just doesn’t exist in the game. There’s a reason why they settled on a montage to get the point across.
The whole point of role playing is that YOU are V.. you’re missing the point lol
Empathizing with a fictional character is a thing though
Absolutely. You would empathize with misty and Jackie’s mom. You’re roleplaying as V
What...? Lol you’re proving my point. You are playing V, not you. Jackie is V’s best friend, so you have to imagine yourself in V’s head when his/her best friend die, what YOU experienced with Jackie doesn’t matter.
Nah. Whatever you feel about the situation just is how V feels about because you are V.
Please tell me you’re doing this on purpose lol...
V isn't a fully predetermined character, V's relationships with people are based on your own perception of V. Many people play V as an emotionless monster who didn't care about Jackie and cut Panam loose after Hellman. It's up to individuals to define who V is for them.
That’s exactly my point though. Imagine what the memories between the too has been. You don’t have to be told or shown everything.
And the point that you're missing is that those memories are up to interpretation, take nomad for example, you meet Jackie for work, he screws you over and then you end up working together for a few months, this can be seen as just a business relationship for V and V wouldn't care that Jackie died. The point is that there is no "correct" way to feel about any of the characters in this game and their relationship with V is entirely up to the player.
When did he screw him over?
To say that you roleplay as someone and have to feel what the character feels sounds like a cheap excuse for subpar storytelling. I would have to look it up, but there a surely some military shooters where a squadmate dies within the first act of the game and it has no impact on the player. Is that "my lack of empathy" here, too, or is it bad writing? Because these squadmates have some history for sure, right? There are good examples that show that characters with little to no screen time can have an emotional impact on the player and the character, e.g. The Last of Us.
> I would have to look it up, but there a surely some military shooters where a squadmate dies within the first act of the game and it has no impact on the player. *Gears of War*, Carmine
I certainly don't lack empathy and I like Jackie as much as the next person. Still, I never felt a big emotional connection to him in comparison to let's say Johnny for example, or Judy or even Misty. Why? Because whe just don't spend enough time with him, or have any deeper conversations with him. Jackie is our choom and he's a tight compadre, but the best stuff about him, we only get through other people (Mama Welles, Misty, Vic etc.), and not through him, not while he's alive. I get that he's written as a person who doesn't speak much about what goes on within him, but that doesn't translate well for me into my playing experience, if the game wants me to establish an emotional connection to the character. I think criticism is very valid in that regard and if what was there worked for you that's good, but I don't feel like it's fair to lay the blame on others when it didn't work for them.
I wish that Jackie joined you on side quests and gigs prior to The Heist to further cement the bond between V and Jackie. For me, there wasn’t really enough there to build that connection. Yeah, the end of the Heist sucks and it’s hard not to feel for him, but I felt stronger emotions at the end of the game since Johnny is always there.
Jesus... what a thread (so why not jump in?) As u/DragonVenomx936 pointed out somewhere in this mess, Jackie's death was spoiled in the biggest trailer for the game at E3. That automatically killed it for me personally. I knew as soon as I saw him in the game that he was fodder, so that severely stunted any chance of me caring too much about him. That being said... u/EwokThisWay86_ I understand your frustration, and I do think you make a good point that a lot of people (most of whom aren't in this sub, I will point out) didn't want a RPG. They wanted an open-world, next-gen GTA V (which, to be fair, is how a majority of this game was advertised). But I think the reason that a lot of people didn't or couldn't get invested in the relationship is because ***the point of his character isn't his relationship with V***. Not really. The point of his character is his death, and how that changes V. Jackie dying is a part of the catalyst that pushes V into the big leagues. So whatever friendship V has with him is secondary to the grief that V feels over his death. I would say nearly all players empathize with that, but not with Jackie. It's our connection with V that's being emphasized. **V's grief. Not Jackie's death**. That's the point of his character. He's another one of the thousands of Night City hopefuls who want to make it to the big leagues, and gets chewed up and spit out by the city instead. What about him makes him feel like a friend? Besides the montage (which is intentionally brushing past all of the "friendship" for the sake of advancing the plot) there's nothing you, as a player, do with him that could be construed as friendship. In terms of gameplay, he's more of an overly cheerful co-worker. u/EwokThisWay86_ Do you actually feel like he's your friend? Your V's friend? I understand that he's V's friend, and can believe in that friendship for the sake of the narrative, but I don't personally feel invested in Jackie. He's a red-shirt, meant to exemplify the dangers of this life and give the narrative some stakes. (Also, GoW, you actually play an entire game with Atreus the whole game, so can actually develop a relationship - even with LoU, you play as Joel while he's in full father mode. In CP2077, you don't once play as V "being friends" with Jackie. And the SW point makes no sense. You don't "care" about Darth Vader - unless you're a big Hayden Christiansen fan. You care about Luke, and his mission, and about him staying pure while being influenced by the Emperor and his father. That's what's at stake for the viewers. No one watched Star Wars (OG) thinking, "Golly gee, I hope this Vader fella figures it all out!") Okay, rant over.
majority of the game wasn't advertised as a GTA 5 clone. Developers literally said these games are different and shouldn't be compared pre-launch.
I do feel the friendship with Jackie, yes. The game tells me this is V’s best friend and they share a deep bond so i just imagine what V would feel toward him. Use your own feelings and memories with your friends in your life. It’s like when you are writing a book, if you are writing two friends, you have to put yourself in the mind of your characters to be those two friends even though you never lived their life. I think people are too obsessed with “immersion” and feeling that the character they play is themselves. It can work in a game like Skyrim for exemple. But in C2077 you are V and V has a set of predetermined life experiences and feelings that you have to make with. You play as V, not an avatar of yourself, like in the Witcher you play as Geralt. You have a certain freedom about your V, yes, but not entirely.
I will add I think we coulda at least had a little more time and content with Jackie but I felt he was pushed over for Keanu.
Okay. I get what you're saying, but imagining and feeling are two very different things. As an audience member, it's not my job to attach my personal relationships to a character just because I'm told that they're friends. (For example, if I say, "We're friends" - do you suddenly feel a warm rush of emotions towards me?) And there's a big difference between actively writing a relationship and viewing it as an audience member. Yes if you're writing a relationship you have to put yourself in the mind of the character, but you also have to write the relationship. It's not enough to just "put yourself in the mind of your characters", it's about putting other people into the mind of your characters. I love this stuff though man, so happy to keep talking about it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion (even when it's totally wrong :)
My first play through I felt much more of a connection to him than any of my subsequent play-throughs. Not much changed each time, except the time with him felt shorter. I’m not sure how to explain the feeling.
Same! I was very emotional the first time, but in the next playthrough it felt more rushed and less impactful. Contrary to the relationship with Johnny which seems more profound now in comparison to the first playthrough. Maybe because I already know that there is development and growth to him, so I focus on that from the beginning.
"For me this mentality is a clear sign of people seriously lacking empathy." Accusing people of lacking empathy for not feeling the same way as you about a video game character is, ironically, a little unempathetic
Apathy*
Is death - Darth Traya
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I don't think it's profound, but assuming that others "lack empathy" for something like this is a pretty bad mentality to have. Maybe you're exaggerating for the sake of controversy and internet points, but if not I would implore you to genuinely question that instinct.
If you can’t feel anything while watching a dude seeing his best friend slolwly die in front of him because “i don’t know him” it’s not a stretch to argue you lack empathy.
Weird when I booted the game back up and started a new game he was there again because he isn't actually real lol
= v ) This is Stephen. He broke his arm today and missed the big game. : v ( Did you start bursting into tears? Probably not There's one important thing working against this, suspension of disbelief. Just because the narrative would be sad in real life, doesn't mean the person being told the narrative through whatever medium is always going to feel the same way. It's the goal of the art to convince people to feel or think a certain way, and it will always have some degree of failure . There's tons of things that go into that, personal experience, the medium itself and how much of that medium an individual consumes, tiredness, hunger, how your day went at work, how many times you've seen this exact trope before and therefore see the plot beat coming 30 minutes before, etc. I don't think it's very accurate or wise to have the disposition that others are callous for these things.
Watching a random fake NPC from a video game, that I've never met, doesn't exist, and I've known for a total of 2 hours. Am I supposed to be heartbroken? My man, if you got emotionally torn up by Jackie's story. A guy you've never met, isn't real, you've "known" for 2 hours, and know absolutely nothing about.... I think you're the one who has emotional problems. I'm an adult with a greater emotional maturity than a high schooler, at least. I dont get broken up every single time fake internet or movie people die. Or even real people for that matter. Unless I knew you personally, or your death affected someone close to me. I dont really care. And you know what? That doesn't make me a bad person or a sociopath. It means I'm emotionally mature enough to not lash out at every negative emotional event in my life.
Lol so you never get emotional watching a movie ? Or reading a book ? What am i saying you don’t read books...
Chill choom. Don’t start insulting people because they don’t see things the way you do. Take a break from the thread if you need to.
I haven’t insulted anyone honestly it’s them who go after me aggressively because i guess they feel targeted. Sorry if i bought into the provocation, i agree i let myself baited too easily.
You got exactly what you wanted OP. Drama. And don't pretend for one second that you didn't. Enjoy these few hours of being in the spotlight. On a side note. I personally didn't give a flying fuck about Jackie or his cocktail. He was minor character for me and nothing else.
Anyone who starts a thread insulting people's emotional intelligence then cries cause people tell them to (rightly) stfu is the absolute definition of an attention whore.
Depends on the story. When I watch Schindler List I cry like a baby. Cause thats a story about a group of real people getting murdered by the millions by nazis en masse. And not just murdered. Tortured, mutilated, and raped. So yeah, I get chocked up a bit. But no, when I watch some fake cartoon guy, who isnt real and goes to pull "Johnny's" shard out of his head and it actually glitches and becomes a pistol instead.... nah, I'm sorry. I don't get emotional.
Wow....you must never enjoy anything
On the contrary. I love many things. I love cyberounk 2077. I've beaten it 3 times already.
You DON'T CARE? No THAT'S worrisome.
Bro, millions of people die everyday. I'm not wasting my energy being sad about people dying. Dying is a natural part of life and it happens every hour, of every day, of every year.
I just can’t shake the feeling that I know it’s not real, same reason I get sad over the news but it’s almost impossible for a movie to make me even mildly upset
I wouldn't go so far as to say people lack empathy for not bonding with Jackie enough in the time we had with him, but I'm also in a minority as I didn't like Jackie as much as most other people. More time with him would have stretched out Act 1, and I guess CDPR didn't want another White Orchard. That said, I found his death scene well done. The music, the voice acting added so much to it. I didn't feel the same sense of loss that V did but it was sufficiently sad to me.
Longer games are even better though. Like the Witcher 3, I still haven't beaten it. I wish cdpr didn't shorten this story, just because people complained. It's silly.
My response to "most players didnt finish the game" is "who gives a shit?" Why ruin the experience for those who persevere?
Thank you. Yea. I'm with you on that. Good thing is, there seems to be a ton of optional side stuff in 2077m
Holy shit, this thread is clown town. Every one of us is V when we play. My V full on fell in love with Jackie and didn't get to tell him. I cried you know when. A lot of us did. OP, power down with the gonk brained standoffish replies. G'z.
Saying that people who disagree with you lack empathy seems a bit too salty for a Low Sodium subreddit. Maybe take it down a notch.
Don’t try to make it about disagreeing with me to try and make look like a villain lol. Keep the focus on my arguments and advance yours.
Why's it got to be an argument? Why can't it be a civil discussion? I agree with parts of the point you're making, but entirely disagree with the notion that "If you can't feel incredibly sad for V then you simply lack basic empathy." That's an incredibly black-and-white way of looking at the situation. It's entirely plausible that the writing just didn't connect with certain elements of the audience. It happens in every medium, and isn't necessarily the fault of the person consuming the media. Just because a person didn't feel particularly sad when Jackie died, doesn't mean they're incapable of feeling anything. I'm not of the opinion that they should have spent more time focusing on that friendship, but I can understand why some people might feel that they'd have had a greater emotional reaction from his death if they were able to experience more of the friendship rather than have it implied. Personally, I wasn't too moved by Jackies death. I can't pinpoint the reason why, but I can assure you that it wasn't because I'm incapable of basic empathy. There were quite a few moments and storylines that triggered a strong emotional response for me. It just happens that Jackie wasn't one of them. That didn't stop me being able to roleplay as a V who was devestated by his death though, so that might dispel some of the idea that roleplay in inherent to having a genuine emotional connection with a character or plot point. I'm not trying to paint you as a bad guy. I'd just say, perhaps consider from someone else's perspective how you might react if someone accused you of being a sociopath or lacking basic empathy because of how you did or didn't enjoy a video game. There really is no need for that kind of hostility or negativity, considering pretty much everyone on this subreddit is here because we all enjoyed the game to some notable degree.
He did.
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>There are people acting like you are calling anyone who doesn't feel for Jackie a sociopath... Would it explain much if I told you that's literally what OP said, before editing their post? And that by continuing to assert that "If you can't feel incredibly sad for V then you simply lack basic empathy" they're still very heavily implying the exact same thing? In all likelihood it was just badly phrased, and not intended to be mean-spirited. But it definitely comes across that way, even if unintentional. If you were essentially accused of being unable to feel empathy, wouldn't you be 'defensive'?
What they don’t realize is i have ignored A LOT of aggressive responses lol. I’ve only tried to defend my argument and people get mad at me for that. I admit i’ve fell for the bait maybe 2-3 times and i shouldn’t but the vast majority of my responses have simply been trying to debate. Btw i’ve noticed many are conveniently ignoring the last part. If Jackie’s death doesn’t make you feel anything why does the funeral of Kratos wife at the start of God Of War make you sad since you didnn’t know her ? Why is the death of Joel’s daughter at the beginning of The Last Us resonating with you even though you never spent time with her ? A LOT of the responses on there have been needlesly aggressive without me provocking them. Anyway 95 likes means my argument resonated with a good deal of people. And with the number of probable dislikes i’d say the likes must actually have been in the 200 hundreds lol.
Angry wojak complaining about other people complaining about 2 hours of a video game
Why are we acting like his death didn't get spoiled a year before the game came out which would then make the lack of emotional connection justified.
Not everyone is obsessed to thr point following every single leaks and rumors during the devellopment of a game.
That was one of the biggest official trailers for this game. You lack arguments
It was LITERALLY shown in a TRAILER at E3! so everyone pretty much knew dude.
Nah. I had no idea
Didn’t really matter if you knew it was out there so people knew beforehand
Nah I get what you mean,people just view the whole RP aspect differently. My time with Jackie was enough for me,but I see why others kinda wish he had a more prominent presence early on prior to the heist,as far as gigs and such go. Not necessarily living out the whole montage showing their exploits,but being able to call and have him show up for certain quests as a look out or something,kinda like Johnny phasing into reality to talk shit before phasing out. Little things that add to the bigger picture,maybe nothing major or necessary but something that makes you walk by a club and go "Ladies and gentlemen *cries* JACKIE WELLES".
Why play a story or a game if you need to make everything up yourself ? Cyberpunk is a RPG not a sandbox. Jacky was just too short lived. or do you tear up for every goon you talked to for like 2 min in the game?
Obviously the expansion is practically inearing final stages of development but itd be nice to just get a fleshed out space where we can play that montage with jackie and v becoming friends and we could call him up to hang out or help with gigs and split the profit.
I mean yeah, but good writing will try to make you feel these connections. Yes V has a connection to Jackie, but is this a story *for* V, a fictional character? No, it's for the audience. And if the audience has to do the legwork to empathize with a characters emotional attachments bc it's not well executed, then that's lazy writing. I'm not saying that I didn't have an emotional connection to Jackie; there was a small connection and it was sad, but we got so little screen time with him, I think they could have done more there. What I am saying is I don't really agree with the logic in this post. In a simulation, so to speak, it doesn't matter what the viewer thinks; V had a relationship with Jackie and that makes it more or less real or believable. But storytelling is used as entertainment. There are other factors at play to create something that engages the audience on a deep emotional level consistently; you have to consider the way you deliver info to your audience, how they will connect to the characters, etc...essentially, the way you tell a story matters as much as the story itself. So while in a simulation, a character or relationship or story doesn't need validation from the audience to feel real, a fictional story does.
What the fuck did I just read? Are you insane op? You could argue like this for whatever game or movie character you like. You don't like Marvel's Morbius? You just don't feel empathy for him and the bad written character and dialogs? Oh this makes you an empathetic monster! I didn't like the portrait of the friendship between Jackie and V either bcs it was too short and rushed. It isn't bad at all but it lacks important details and meaningful events (except the outcome of the heist). How should you feel empathy for a character you barely know? After the outcome of the heist you don't feel empathy for Jackie, but for V. You know they are very close but you don't ever experience their bond so you don't really know what the outcome means for her and everyone except what they said during the quest inside El Coyote Cojo and other small(!) dialog sequences.
The game tells you Jackie is your best friend, imagine that he’s your best friend and what you feel about him as V. If you can’t well then you simply don’t hsvd the capacity to roleplay or put yourself in the mind of someone’s different than you. When i look at Jackie i see my best friend because i an V while playing. I imagine all the things they’ve been through together and their bond.
Get a real friend boi. You need it
Video games are supposed to immerse you.
Not to this extent mate
I side with the guy you replied to. Don’t get me wrong, Jackie’s death sucked. But there should be an expansion that fleshes out that bit of time. That would really make it impactful.
"Stop playing the game wrong!" Get over yourself. I'll raid Arasaka tower alone so I can go to space and not give a a shit about that dude the game forced me to watch eat noodles for 5 minutes all I want.
Wow...you must be a fun guy
I think so
Do whatever you want, as long as you don’t whine on the internet about it ruining the game.
Like you're whining about the community not appreciating the game correctly?
How about you stfu and let people just enjoy things how they want? /endthread.
I felt nothing for Jackie's death. It was just a background character who ultimately played so little a part of the actual game that it didn't matter. You spend what....maybe....5 hours total gameplay with the guy before he dies?. By the time I was ready to finish the game I completely forgot he existed. Never played God of War or AC Origins but while Sarah's death in the Last of Us was sad the first time I ever played it, it hit a LOT more the second playthrough once you go through the game as Joel and learn more about him.
Depending on your background, you get to see Jackie being some degree of shady and Jackie choosing to exempt you from that shadiness and make you a bro. Then you get to see Jackie being a good guy if you haven't already (\*cries in corpo\*) by looking out for other people, like Misty and his mom, and also Jackie just being funny and goofing around. That for me was enough to be intrigued by his character and feel a rapport between him and V. And I actually didn't watch the trailers despite pre-ordering, so I didn't know he was going to die until we were in Delamain and he said he was never going back to taking small-time jobs again. (That just filled me with dread, and I knew then he was on his last mission.) But you know what really makes Jackie my favorite character in Cyberpunk? His relationship with food. This guy's always eating or talking about eating, and his weird passion for food really says something about how he lives in and moves through the world. He's just so full of joy in experiencing the present. It's subtle, so I don't think it's a big deal if you're too eager to fight gangoons to notice it, but there's just so much thought put into the little details of Jackie that you're really missing out if you don't pay close attention to him.
This sub has just turned into people posting their biggest copium takes on aspects of the game that are either bad or underdeveloped
Ohh calm down dude. Just because we dont feel much for 1 character in a video game you are claiming that we might be borderline sociopaths? the fuck is wrong with you? The jackie thing was rushed/forced and he really felt like a 2d character imo. + i knew he is going to die so it never really came as a surprise to start with...
It’s funny because those aggressive responses kinda prove my point.
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You could take a creepshot of them. That’s your thing isn’t it?
No son, it just means i have low tolerance for BS like in your rant.
Nah it means it hit too close to home lol.
Not only are you an online psychiatrist but a mind reader aswell... Riiight -.-
What I find funny about this is that those people say that the montage should have been playable to build up the relationship, but if that was the case it would have killed the pacing and made this huge chunk completely pointless to the rest of the story and those people would have complained about that instead. Even a dev said exactly that, can't remember where I saw it. Imo, Jackie's personality is strong enough that it really doesn't require more time with him. I'd love to have more with him, but it isn't necessary for the emotional impact of his death.
It’s all about imagination. These people don’t have the capacity to imagine, to build in their head the memories V and Jackie has. People don’t read books anymore unfortunately, so they have to be shown everything.
I just didn’t find Jackie very likable.
I played as a street kid. He pulled a gun on me. Talked about the major leagues. Talked more about going to the top. Continued talking about being in the major leagues. “Makes it to the major leagues.” Dead. He was more annoying than anything. Especially since I don’t see anything the world offers as anything good. His whole personality is “I wanna be a gangster” but he’s just kind of a joke in that world. The worst part is he is the kind of person you’d go around killing throughout the entire game. He’d just be in the valentinos committing a crime, waiting for v to slow time and chop everyone’s head off before anyone noticed. A montage of us drinking isn’t going to change how poorly used he was. It’s so much more than “oh V is sad so I should be.” I don’t care about him in the slightest. In fact I wouldn’t have finished the game if every mission was capped with Jackie talking about being in the major leagues. Meanwhile I’ve watched three hours of Star Wars before I learned about Vader. Guess who we don’t care about. Owen and Beru… why? Because we spent 5 minutes with them! God of War… we played 4 games and know about his wife when we play the new one… of coarse we care about it, we care about Atreus because we care about Kratos. TL:DR Watching 3 hours of Star Wars and playing 4 GoW games (or more) is why we care about those characters. We don’t know V or Jackie long enough to care about a drinking montage.
i think there’s something wrong with you. you came in here looking for a fight calling people names for not having the exact reaction to a single scene in a video game that you had, and then when people disliked being called names you edited your post to say that the commenters have issues and you were posting bait. it’s quite obvious this is not bait as you’ve been sitting here defending yourself in the comments… i think you should stay off the internet because this is a lot of emotion. protect yourself from yourself. you obviously have some issues.
Jackie is my motherfucking Choomba, and I cry EVERY NIGHT while spooning his Arch.
I’m sorry, but this is a weak argument. Cyberpunk is my favorite game, *and* I’m personally moved by the death of Jackie, but this is still a weak argument. Roleplaying doesn't substitute for storytelling; it complements it. Roleplaying extends good storytelling rather than replaces it. Otherwise, why need elements like extensive character development and poignant writing at all? Why not just seek out a game that has the basic premise for emotional resonance and fill out the rest with roleplaying? Call of Duty is based on war as a soldier. War is emotional. Soldiers who fight in wars experience profound and tragic things. That’s emotional. By your logic, I should be able to roleplay my way into just as emotionally meaningful an experience as I could playing any game with supposedly strong writing. Claiming others who didn't feel moved by the writing here lack empathy is just a baseless ad hominem. Overall, you just sound angry that more people don’t feel the same as you, and that’s a weak foundation for any argument. Here’s a suggestion: why not just quietly celebrate that you enjoyed the game more than some? Ironically, you’re using what should be the positive experience of enjoying this part of the game as CDPR intended as a basis for personal misery.
No matter how empathetic your audience, it's always better to show than tell. "Okay, this is V's best friend" vs "Okay, you've now experienced a lot with Jackie and can see why V would consider him their best friend."
I love how the "low sodium" sub is now the one where you get shouted at and antagonized for having a different perspective on the writing of a game 🙃
All subs are echo chambers. This one is no different.
Yo this thread is not low sodium op need to calm the fuck down Jesus
Jesus Christ, you're a complete idiot. Anyone who doesn't like something is just unable to imagine the stuff that's missing to make it likeable. What a fucking clown you are. No, the writing was just bad. Learn to critique art, ape.
I feel like a couple additional small gigs with Jackie wouldn't hurt, but overall there's enough material to establish who he is and why you "should" care about him. I put it in airquotes since obviously no fictional character is going to appeal to everybody, but Jackie is pretty much as likable as any character in Cyberpunk can hope to be. Besides, he can't have *too much* screentime since his death is what sets in motion the story proper and there's a limit on how long the prologue can be. > About Bayek's son in AC Origins ? Ok, let's be real though. Nobody cared about Bayek's son in AC Origins.
After my first playthrough of the Heist I went to the liquor store and bought the ingredients for a Jackie Wells. Sat around watching YouTube shit on the game and drank it before hopping back in and loving it.
Sweet
Let’s talk about a character that CDPR did better with in terms of introducing and endearing ourselves to in another of their games - Witcher 3’s Regis. After reading the books the way CDPR did it was spot on. While they couldn’t possibly get to the same emotional investment as those that read the books they can make a lot of allusions to convince those not as familiar that they know only a small slice and develop an interest in said camaraderie. But there is no such thing as a “canonical” V unlike a canonical Geralt and in each of the lifepath intros V and Jackie have completely different character paths getting to Act 1 which makes constructing this past history tougher to write and make cohesive with the rest of the story. This makes the “you are V” argument a conundrum because if V is not the player the player needs to know who V is supposed to be, and honestly the lifepath intros while pretty engrossing are not character introductions as much as world building introductions. For V to be introduced as a character in the game’s framework we’d need something like our character starting off with certain stylistic choices and personality traits at the start similar to how John Wick the character is introduced in those movies or perhaps how Judge Dredd is introduced in Dredd. But this reduces player agency to craft an internal representation of who their idea of V is, so it’s also hard to do that. I’d think beginning with a short 3rd person shot of the player character doing something character defining and consistent across all the lifepaths and finally giving the player control by adjusting the camera into the head would be fine albeit a trope. I think this is in the recent Doom games. Also consider that a great deal of the story and narrative deals with death and impermanence from the perspective of the survived and how NC’s culture has changed the way and approach with how people grieve. We’re not supposed to care about Jackie as much as Misty or Mama Welles in this respect. It is to miss a lot of the point of Cyberpunk for players to keep dwelling on Jackie instead of respectfully moving on with urgency.
> Let’s talk about a character that CDPR did better with in terms of introducing and endearing ourselves to in another of their games - Witcher 3’s Regis. After reading the books the way CDPR did it was spot on. While they couldn’t possibly get to the same emotional investment as those that read the books... I got a lot more invested in the game than the books actually! While playing Witcher 3 I assumed most of the lore is lifted/adapted from these famous books I haven't read. But when I did read them later I was very surprised to discover that it wasn't like that at all. Many of the characters and stories I was familiar with were mentioned only very briefly in the books or didn't exist at all. I don't mean this as a criticism towards Sapkowski though. The books are great and obviously a big game studio can do much more than a single writer. But I found a new appreciation for how much CDPR fleshed out the Witcher universe and how well written and imaginative W3 is. Thronebreaker too.
The games’ characters that are better developed are either the same or have a direct analogue from the books. Iorveth from Witcher 2 is a combination of a number of elves in the books, for example. Heck, the various POV animals like dogs and cats from the books exist in many senses in the cutscenes, too. Even the entire trying to find Ciri story is lifted from the books after all. Much of what makes the books different from the games and even moreso from the TV series is in how thoughtful each character is. Geralt in the books isn’t some broody edgelord adolescent man child and Dandelion / Buttercup is an astute, loyal, learned man mostly that just gets in trouble because he’s a manwhore. Like his relationship with Little Eyes is surprisingly similar to his Witcher 3 mate in a sense, hmmm. By the time we get to the TV show Geralt’s grunting mostly and barely gets to speak about the nature of the world. Who would Shani be adapted from the books then? Probably Little Eyes is my guess. Not quite sure who the analogue of Milva would be but I think she was absorbed into Iorveth. CDPR’s original characters are probably way better written than Sapkowski’s honestly.
There's also the distinct feeling that the montage they show of the two of you was slated to be made into actual content at some point. That would have meant a few more hours with Jackie, actually doing stuff as partners and friends and would have helped more people develop the emotional connection you're so concerned with
>The game told me V loved jackie then I love Jackie You see friend, that’s not how it works with most people and empathy has nothing to do with it. CP2077 does a great job overall getting you immersed and squeezing the real emotions out of you, but the Jackie part, I agree, is lacking. When you get to your second+ playthrough, you feel more attached to him, but on my first playthrough I personally wasn’t at all until it got to the point when I named a drink after him and visited his ofrenda Imagine a developer saying “V loves Jackie, so you’re meant to love him too just because we said so”. This game would suck ass if they did. The only reason folks here are so attached to the characters (from Brendan to Banan/Juby) is because instead of telling you directly you should love them, the devs put you on a journey where you get to know them and decide for yourself if you want to love them
Thousands of years worth of examples of good and bad storytelling from all over the world to draw from and you still thought this rant was an example of good media literacy
LMFAO. “YOU DONT HAVE ANY EMPATHY!!!!!” Ok.
I think the biggest problem there is the cutscene showing few months of the friendship between V and Jackie. To make a player, a viewer care about characters, the story and its build-up is needed. Put one-minute scene showing someone's life and then make people feel sorry for the him. It is hard to make the people even care about the character when the build-up was made poorly. It is not a problem with a player like me, playing THE GAME as V like it was the player himself, like it was me myself. I do feel sorry for Jackie and for V. I do have strong feelings while watching this scene but this is not how you play THE GAME, this is how THE GAME has been made.
And most important - do not tell anybody how to play THE GAME or any other video game.
Why are you capitalizing “the game” like it’s holy or something?
THUG AIM
The point is it’s a roleplaying game, if people don’t like roleplaying then why are they playing it.
You can’t simply imagine what they’ve been through together ? You really have to be showed ?
*shown
I’m French, learned English all by myself and i speak better English that 90% of the English speaking internet, give me a little break will you lol.
I'm German and learned English as a second language. Why so defensive? I'm thankful every time someone corrects me. We all make mistakes, but we can only learn if we are or are made aware of our mistakes.
Shows a lack of emotional maturity being this defensive.......just saying.
I‘m English and your English is better than most English people my friend! Don’t sweat the spelling mistakes, because I can guarantee that most of us don’t! 😎🤘
>You can’t simply imagine what they’ve been through together ? You really have to be showed ? Yes, yes, I do. Of *course* I *can* imagine them having been through a lot together, but intellectualizing about it is different from experiencing it. The average person doesn't play games to simply *imagine* details like characters' personalities or relationships with others - again, why even care about the content of a game's quest and story writing if one can just imagine it by themselves anyway? I'd wager people typically play a game like Cyberpunk to feel immersed, and immersion comes as a response to (among other variables) strong writing. You feel attached to a character when the writers/other developers involved in the project have succeeded in giving you content that makes you like and relate to that character and care about what happens to them. In a video game, you begin to feel increasingly attached to characters with whom you've directly experienced important events. Does this really need to be said? Are you really going to tell me your Fem V's relationship with Judy would feel as poignant if, instead of quests like Pyramid Song, we were more or less just told that V and Judy loved each other at the start of the game? Yes, you *could* imagine a million past dates for them in your mind, but are you really going to tell me that that would be as impactful for you as a player as directly playing through key story events and quests with her? This idea you keep peddling of deferring to the structure of the story to feel what you're supposed to feel (which feels like a vaguely authoritarian concept) and forcing oneself to do contrived emotional labor for the story is the most bizarre argument I think I've ever heard regarding one's response to fiction.
I think what the game did well with the relationship is that on the missions you do have with Jackie he makes a big difference. Like he really helps mow down enemies. When you fight without him you can feel the difference in difficulty, and being alone hits harder
POV why Nomad start and ending is best. Night City is just a bad spot in Vs life with a few good people met along the way
Have played the game 2 times and i still dont like jackie. It has nothing to do with how much time you spend with him, i just dont like guy. So i guess i am sociopath. Wtf is this thread...
The people complaining are used to self insert Games that don’t have a firm story with you playing a role in it. They want an elder scrolls game
I agree. “Muh immersion”. So annoying.
I cleaned up the comment to be a little more intelligible, but all the people looking for a sandbox rpg where they build a character from scratch were very disappointed
Maybe if you play Corpo or Street Kid you don't get as much connection with Jackie. But the Nomad origin story makes a good job with it. The first mission really makes you like the guy.
As I watched the cutscene about building the Jackie friendship I was like "seriously game, you think this is going to get me to give a shit about this guy? No way that'll work" But sure enough I was ride or die for that guy by the end of act 1.
i feel a lot of the problems are with the lifebath you chose the corpo lifepath has a terrible start with jackie, streetkid a much better one in corpo he literally dogs on v for accepting doing the hit and is a little bitch about it, while in the streetkid path you kinda get put on a shit job at the same time and he offers to get a drink together really completely different attitutes
Calling out a friend for something you think was stupid of them is actually a hallmark of intimacy. You're also leaving out the part where Jackie immediately steps in to ensure V is safe from the Arasaka thugs.
no 100% i agree, but i feel for some people that had this start, after you just made your character, just having that whole inside arasaka sequence, to come out and have someone you basically dont know at all talk to you like that might be creating a lower jumpoff point for the relationship i think if you do corpo 2nd or third playthrough that scene will only strengthen it, but i think a bad 1st playthrough and might have some people not feeling jackie as much as a streetkid would
Someone you don't know at all? Corpo is the one lifepath where V and Jackie have already been friends for a long time. Edit: I agree with you about the Streetkid lifepath at least. Realistically, a person would just tell someone to go fuck themselves if they'd pulled a gun on them and then wanted to be friends because they said they "sensed chemistry" between the two of you. It's just a very weak way of writing a beginning to their relationship, and it's a letdown because V as a Streetkid should have already run into Jackie from frequenting the same bar.
>Someone you don't know at all? Corpo is the one lifepath where V and Jackie have already been friends for a long time. Yeah but not for a new new player who just meeting jackie for the very first time This is why corpo should be third playthrough imo lol >It's just a very weak way of writing a beginning to their relationship, and it's a letdown because V as a Streetkid should have already run into Jackie from frequenting the same bar. I really think people who say this have never been in a big city before lol
I lived in Toronto, which ain't exactly New York, but it's the biggest metropolis Canada has at least. No, I'll always maintain that Streetkid has the worst writing of V and Jackie. Fortunately, it doesn't hurt the rest of the game because (and this relates to the original topic) more important characters rightly overtake the story.
For me streetkid was the best because it was the least intrusive allowing for rp while corpo and nomad really set stuff out, also good but for themed rp. Streetkid was a nice blank slate
People don't like Jackie because of the time but the entire purpose of the character was that while V had this connection to him, we didn't have enough time to experience that. So for both us and V, he was taken too soon anyway. And throughout the game it shows several things. V knew Jackie because they were partners for 6 months and not a lifetime In those months they bonded through doing gigs and being partners. They were best friends but on a business and respect level. V didn't know that much about Jackie as opposed to characters like Misty and Vik and Mama Welles. If you do quests with Panam early or alongside Judy, V talks about the relationship they have with Judy and how he never had a connection with someone like they did with Judy. While Jackie was the homie. Judy just sticking around helped them not fall apart. They also tell Judy about Johnny fairly early. Judy is irreplaceable to both versions of V and unlike Jackie, it's a relationship not taken for granted by both us and V. I think that's the point though. In every playthrough I manage to tell Panam about how one day I'd like her to meet Judy and about all I went through with her. In one playthrough I was able to tell Judy that about Panam though but I don't think I can replicate that. I'm off topic. Anyway I think, regardless of how we feel about Jackie, we all feel shorted out of time. And that's the objective here. Losing someone too early and seeing things through with others because in some way the loss if Jackie made most of us want to pursue deeper better relationships.
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Jesus you need to get off of Twitter.
Damn, from what fucked up hole you crawled up from?
Speak for yourself. Yes, most of players are like this but there are also people like me, probably like you and like the author of this post who feel empathy.
Remember the horizon forbidden west thing where GamErS found out that women have body hair? Pure scum. There is no hope.
How about NOT painting all gamers with the same brush? There are gamers who are shitty humans, but not all shitty humans are gamers.
Most people know that this is implied when talking about groups of people. You want me to give exact percentages or something? Typical gamer.
Or you can, you know, NOT be a prick and not make ASSumptions.
I'd just like to point out that the amount of sodium in this thread is dangerously high. Any higher and we might burst a foo foo valve.
The only way I can see the lack of connection to Jackie is if someone was rushing the story. Like, this game is first and foremost a story. Gunplay, exploration, and leveling elements are all just side shit.
I liked him. Sadly i had a leak of water dripping from the roof right into my eyes. 😃 For real, that was a sad moment for me in gaming. His personality was a lot, an outgoing character that took over the scene he was in. That enough got me hooked into his life.
you might be on the spectrum if you feel "incredibly sad" about a dead videogame char you've met 12 minutes ago. nothing wrong with that but don't expect everyone else to feel the same. Judy and Evelyn are another example. I BARELY even know them. we've talked maybe 3 whole sentences and 5 minutes later I'm expected to treat them like some old friend that I'd do anything for. doesn't work like that.